Claiborne gives birth to a four on the Wonderlic

[suitanim]

It would seem from Chidi29's link that he was working on his disability through school.

Then it falls on HIM (and maybe on his agent as well) to take responsibility for his own disability and ask for the help that the NFL clearly offers.

Even if this kid does have a legitimate LD, that hardly changes the fact that the football factories are passing through kids because of their ability to put butts in seats and sell jerseys. It would simply make him the exception, rather than the rule. And NONE of this changes my original assertion that the kid can't read. In fact, the debate has simply produced more evidence that he can't, not less. Call it a learning disability if you like, but the fact remains that the kid can't read, and, by definition, illiterate. I can also pretty much guarantee that just about ANY other average kid that doesn't play a sport and couldn't read would be rejected from college, or at least remediated for a couple years. This kid got a pass because he could play the Hell out of football, pure and simple. The wonderlic did it's job by culling that fact out. Goodell did his usual, and drew attention to the wrong part of this story.

[Chidi29]

Which begs the question: Did this kid just NOW discover he had a learning disability? Or was the NFL unable to verify the LD? Or is it that the kid just can't read?

I think I've made that answer clear about three times on this thread. Obviously, you're not reading anything I'm writing (no wonder we're going in circles).

But thanks for the link.

[suitanim]

I think I've made that answer clear about three times on this thread. Obviously, you're not reading anything I'm writing (no wonder we're going in circles).

But thanks for the link.

No, you've actually obfuscated and diverted attention from the fact that it was, is, and will always be the latter. HE CAN'T READ.

It actually doesn't even matter why. The salient point is that he cannot read. This is like arguing over why a person with no legs can't walk, even though none of the arguments change the fact that he can't walk. The fact is, whether he's paralyzed, or bedridden, or a double amputee, he cannot walk. What you're trying to argue here is essentially saying "Well, he CAN walk, even though he's paralyzed".

No, he can't. He can't walk BECAUSE he's paralyzed....but he still can't walk.

[suitanim]

The Japanese have words for truth, and the facade of truth. The "Tatemae" (the facade) in this case would be the fact that Claiborne has explosive and impressive football skills, and most likely be a big star CB in the NFL, make millions, and be a fan favorite.

The "Honne" is the uncomfortable truth that can't be discussed, which is that this kid has been fast-tracked through secondary and post-secondary education without being able to read, all because he can play football. I guess Tatemae would apply to the explanation that he can't read being based on a learning disability...which is still a bit more palatable than just calling an ace and ace and saying the kid is illiterate.

[Chidi29]

No, you've actually obfuscated and diverted attention from the fact that it was, is, and will always be the latter. HE CAN'T READ.

It actually doesn't even matter why. The salient point is that he cannot read. This is like arguing over why a person with no legs can't walk, even though none of the arguments change the fact that he can't walk. The fact is, whether he's paralyzed, or bedridden, or a double amputee, he cannot walk. What you're trying to argue here is essentially saying "Well, he CAN walk, even though he's paralyzed".

No, he can't. He can't walk BECAUSE he's paralyzed....but he still can't walk.

But it's not because, by all accounts, the fact he doesn't want to learn. Or the fact that he isn't trying.

[suitanim]

But it's not because, by all accounts, the fact he doesn't want to learn. Or the fact that he isn't trying.

That we will never know. That does not, in any way, affect the larger argument.

Also, if I took 4 years of German, then had to take a test in German to prove that I could speak the language before I went to Germany, I'd tell someone that I didn't actually know how to speak German before I took the test, or would refuse to take the test at all. That is only applicable, of course, based on the assumption that the ability to read is a prerequisite the NFL still deems important. Perhaps it's not.

In which case my whole argument crumbles....because if the schools don't care, and the colleges don't care, and the NFL doesn't care, and the fans don't care, then what difference does it make?

[Chidi29]

That we will never know. That does not, in any way, affect the larger argument.

Also, if I took 4 years of German, then had to take a test in German to prove that I could speak the language before I went to Germany, I'd tell someone that I didn't actually know how to speak German before I took the test, or would refuse to take the test at all. That is only applicable, of course, based on the assumption that the ability to read is a prerequisite the NFL still deems important. Perhaps it's not.

We have reports that say he was hard worker who attempted to learn. There isn't any evidence he did not care and just skated on by because he was a football player.

While it doesn't change the larger argument, my point is that he should not become the posterchild for college football mills when his situation is different than a lot of others who are actually exploiting it.

[suitanim]

Are any of those reports from any source that ISN'T self-serving or doesn't have an agenda?

[Chidi29]

Are any of those reports from any source that ISN'T self-serving or doesn't have an agenda?

Yes (though I'm sure you'll call it self-serving anyway).

It's all from Greg Gabriel from NFP, the guy I've been linking the entire time.

[suitanim]

Yes (though I'm sure you'll call it self-serving anyway).

It's all from Greg Gabriel from NFP, the guy I've been linking the entire time.

The guy who said "Everyone I've talked to"?

Maybe he talked to the kids mom? Or Les Miles? I mean, honestly, what are these people going to say? "No, he's a dummy who can't read and is lazy and we passed him through"?

Look, I know you're never going to change your position on this, and that is fine, but as inner-city illiteracy rates continue to rise, this is going to become much more of a problem in the future, not less. Just like in the FSU article where it stated that basically 2/3rd's of the basketball team had a "learning disability" when the rest of the population only has between a 5-10% rate, there will be excuses made, and things will be swept under the rug, and people will decide not to face the root causes and the deeper issues at stake here. That's hard. Watching your team filled with illiterate super stars win basketball and football games is easy...

[suitanim]

Just to keep this discussion in context, check this out:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...medium=twitter

There are five levels of national literacy standards, with Level 1 being the lowest. Those same standards have defined literacy as an ability to read for knowledge, write coherently and think critically about the written word.
Experts say that to function successfully in 21st-century life requires at least Level 3 literacy skills. Only persons at Level 3 or above are deemed capable of using that bus schedule or writing that simple letter.
According to the CWRU findings, 43.8 percent of Cuyahoga County residents 16 and older lack those skills.

In Cleveland, 65 percent of the population has Level 1 or Level 2 skills. In East Cleveland, it's 78.9 percent.

[suitanim]

Do they all have learning disabilities?

I bet that all the kids who are great at basketball and football conveniently do...

[ALLD]

A mind is a terrible thing.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c3c_1256950752

[Chidi29]

The guy who said "Everyone I've talked to"?

Maybe he talked to the kids mom? Or Les Miles? I mean, honestly, what are these people going to say? "No, he's a dummy who can't read and is lazy and we passed him through"?

Look, I know you're never going to change your position on this, and that is fine, but as inner-city illiteracy rates continue to rise, this is going to become much more of a problem in the future, not less. Just like in the FSU article where it stated that basically 2/3rd's of the basketball team had a "learning disability" when the rest of the population only has between a 5-10% rate, there will be excuses made, and things will be swept under the rug, and people will decide not to face the root causes and the deeper issues at stake here. That's hard. Watching your team filled with illiterate super stars win basketball and football games is easy...

Gabriel has been in the business for 29 years and was the Director of College Scouting for nine. I'm going to trust he knows who to talk to and who is being reliable.

I'm not saying that the term "learning disability" is one that is being overused and exploited on the whole. I see your point. But let's not make Claiborne the posterchild for it because he may very well not fit into that category.

[suitanim]

A mind is a terrible thing.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c3c_1256950752

A classic...I've referenced it many times, and no one ever gets it.

"My helmets....and my shouldem pads".

Good stuff!