Claiborne gives birth to a four on the Wonderlic

[86WARD]

Rod Woodson said he blew the test off...worked out well for him too...

[X-Terminator]

Point STILL is, these kids get a pass through high school and college. The SEC is bad in this regard...most of the schools are bottom-of-the-barrel academically. I guess it's un-PC to point it out openly, though...

WVU could not get into the SEC, so as bad as they apparently are, they must have some academic standards.

[suitanim]

WVU could not get into the SEC, so as bad as they apparently are, they must have some academic standards.

There are some really good schools in the SEC. Vanderbilt is a top-notch school. Florida and Georgia are really good schools. I think Bama ain't bad either. But I remember there was a LOT of talk about this a year or two ago when the rapid expansion was going on, particularly in regard to the SEC vs. the Big Ten. The standards for the Big Ten are such that only a handful of SEC schools could qualify. The bottom-of-the-barrel SEC schools are pretty bad.

But Texas is a good school, and they probably passed Vince Young right through, too. I think it's a problem that isn't only endemic to the south or the SEC.

[zulater]

Well, then there is the 26-27-60 thing I posted elsewhere. But, you know, whatever...

Point STILL is, these kids get a pass through high school and college. The SEC is bad in this regard...most of the schools are bottom-of-the-barrel academically. I guess it's un-PC to point it out openly, though...

I wouldn't mind this being brought to the forefront if the athletes names were hidden and this was simply being used to bring light to the SEC or any other conferences lack of academic standards. I just don't like the personal nature this takes on when an athletes name is exposed.

[atlsteelers]

The SEC is bad in this regard...most of the schools are bottom-of-the-barrel academically. I guess it's un-PC to point it out openly, though...

i believe OSUs "student" athlete terrelle pryor scored a 7 the first time he took it.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128838323.html

[suitanim]

i believe OSUs "student" athlete terrelle pryor scored a 7 the first time he took it.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128838323.html

That's basically another version of the "Bu-bu-bu-Bush" diversionary tactic.

Our schools suck? "Hey! Wait....look over THERE!"

Anyway, Pryor is a dummy....not disputing that. But I think the accurate number was a 21 or 22.

[Chidi29]

Yeah....did you read further? That learning disability centers around............say it with me now..........................HIS ABILITY TO READ.

People who can't read are called "illiterate". Say it with ME now. People who can't read, or have difficulty reading, are I-L-L-I-T-E-R-A-T-E.

Why does every fucking thing I post here end up in an argument? If this kid was a football stud, he's be working as a landscaper...LSU walked him through.

But who says who got a pass? Who says he can't read? Obviously he struggles and likely takes longer than others. That's not going to help you out when you have a timed 50 question test with the pressure the NFL Draft brings, with a GM of a football team adminstering the test.

You're point is that LSU passed him through school. Says who? From what Gabriel said, he was a hard working kid who did try. I'm sure he sought out help, tutoring, special needs, whatever, but it doesn't mean that the school just blindly let him make a mockery out of education because he played on the football team.

[suitanim]

The Wonderlic isn't applied by people from LSU who have a dog in the hunt and something to protect. It's an NFL thing, administered in an unbiased fashion and with complete transparency. This is what shines a light on these problems.

And apologists like you are what occults these problems.

[oneforthetoe]

He couldn't spell "LSU" if you spotted him the "L" and the "U".

Hollywood Henderson, is that you?

[Count Steeler]

You're point is that LSU passed him through school. Says who? From what Gabriel said, he was a hard working kid who did try. I'm sure he sought out help, tutoring, special needs, whatever, but it doesn't mean that the school just blindly let him make a mockery out of education because he played on the football team.

Now you are presuming? Just because you would do it, does not mean everyone else would. I would hope he did, but don't presume.

[Chidi29]

Now you are presuming? Just because you would do it, does not mean everyone else would. I would hope he did, but don't presume.

I base that off Gabriel's statement,

He knows and understands his disability and uses all the resources that LSU has available to control it and to help him get by in the classroom

So yes, I'll presume when I have evidence to back it up. Once there's evidence that LSU let the kid walk through because he's an athlete, he can presume just as much.

[Chidi29]

The Wonderlic isn't applied by people from LSU who have a dog in the hunt and something to protect. It's an NFL thing, administered in an unbiased fashion and with complete transparency. This is what shines a light on these problems.

And apologists like you are what occults these problems.

What problem? That he has a disability? We already knew that. Did anyone expect him to do well on a written test?

[ShutDown24]

Because he's a cornerback. Probably the position requiring the LEAST intellect on the whole team.

Well if it's useless for cornerbacks, then why does the NFL insist they take the test? You're shooting your own argument in the foot. The wonderlic is garbage.

[ShutDown24]

These guys are "paid" to play football. Nobody gives a shit if they can read.

Then why say this?

Do the naysayers really believe that the NFL uses this test for no reason at all?

[Count Steeler]

I base that off Gabriel's statement,

He knows and understands his disability and uses all the resources that LSU has available to control it and to help him get by in the classroom

So yes, I'll presume when I have evidence to back it up. Once there's evidence that LSU let the kid walk through because he's an athlete, he can presume just as much.

That is why I found the wording of your post weird. You don't usually presume. Thanks for clearing that up.

[suitanim]

Nobody in college cares. They walk these kids through.

Dumb argument anyway. They (the NFL) apply the wonderlic test to EVERYONE at the combine. Now you suggest they should start profiling? "Well, you're a black CB, nobody cares what you score anyway...you don't have to take it". Stupid. And probably grounds for a lawsuit.

If this was a 19 year old black girl with a 1.8 GPA who scored a 19 on her ACT, NOBODY at LSU would give a shit. He got special treatment (and who knows what else) because he's an athlete. Period.

Finally, the NFL actually accommodates people with earning disabilities for this test. All you have to do is ask...

[suitanim]

Found some interesting stuff about this. Apparently, slapping a "learning disablity" tag on a player is a common way to get then out of attending class.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...5&sportCat=nfl

In the past two decades, there's been a race to the bottom, in which many football-factory schools have lowered academic standards for football and men's basketball, dropping any pretense of education in pursuit of wins. (NCAA strictures govern whether a player can become a college athlete; colleges or conferences generally impose their own rules about whether athletes, once admitted, remain eligible; some big universities now define a football player taking a half-load of courses pass/fail as a "college student.") Here, "Outside the Lines" details how, at Florida State, a suspiciously high percentage of football players have been classified as learning disabled, which creates exemptions from already lax academic requirements. The lowering of standards in pursuit of wins is incredibly cynical on the part of big universities -- not only do hardly any of the players at colleges that don't focus on educating athletes advance to careers in the NFL, the recruiting pitch could be, "Come here and we'll never make you go to class."

[suitanim]

If you click the link in that paragraph, you'll fine THIS story: (On a side note, I know someone who went to a Big East school [which shall remain nameless] and basically played this role for football players, reading to them, taking their tests, going to class for them)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/n...ory?id=4737281

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- As the learning specialist working with the most academically challenged athletes at Florida State, Brenda Monk was confronted each year with recruits who would seem to have little chance of surviving on a college campus. Their deficiencies were laid out in transcripts and psycho-educational reports submitted during the admissions process.
Sometimes, the athletes knew exactly what they were up against. She recalls a conversation with one such player in her office at Doak Campbell Stadium.
"You might as well know right off the bat, I can't read," he told her.
"Then how are we going to get through these college classes?" she asked.


"It's easy," he responded. "You get to read to me."

That's where Monk set up camp, working on papers and other assignments with what she estimates were about 65 learning disabled athletes. She tells "Outside the Lines" that more than a third of the football team, and three-quarters of the basketball team, had learning disabilities. FSU spokesman Rob Wilson did not respond to requests by "Outside the Lines" for information on the number of learning disabled athletes who were in the program when Monk left.
By comparison, experts estimate that 5 to 10 percent of the general adult population has a learning disability.
Fred Rouse, a former Seminoles receiver, attributes the prevalence of learning disabled athletes to an awareness of the resources available to those with such a diagnosis. He says some players are just lazy and looking for someone else to do their academic work.

"I think it's bull----," says Rouse, who started as a freshman in 2006. "You [as a high school athlete] have all of this time to prepare [academically] before you get to this level, and then when you get here, you play this punk role as, you know, 'I have a learning disability,' when that's not the case."

[Chidi29]

Suit,

I know it's an issue on a large scale. And to think that teams/athletes don't take advantage of the learning disability to any extent is naive.

But we're talking about a specific situation with a specific player. To automatically write him off as one of those guys who are just cheating the system is simply wrong. Because there ARE people, athletes out there that have a legitimate learning disability. You can't blindly lump them in with everyone else.

And the report I linked said that Claiborne was diagnosed with the learning disability in high school. It didn't magicaly appear once he showed up on LSU's campus.

[suitanim]

This "specific player" obviously had taken advantage of every "learning disability" perk and short-cut at LSU. There is help available at the combine for this test. Or did he JUST NOW discover he had a learning disability?

Maybe he did?

That doesn't wash. How does one NOT know they can't read? Having a standardized test be the way you're outed is pretty pathetic. Maybe THIS is the role the wonderlic serves for the NFL? Outing the illiterate?

The funny thing is, the longer the people who are wrong in this thread argue that they are right, the more ironic it becomes. There will be more and more kids like this in the future because the high schools are only getting worse, and there will be many more, not less, illiterate kids passed through high school and college solely based on their ability to play a child's sport, and the apologists will only bury their heads deeper in the sand as it happens.

[Chidi29]

This "specific player" obviously had taken advantage of every "learning disability" perk and short-cut at LSU. There is help available at the combine for this test. Or did he JUST NOW discover he had a learning disability?

Maybe he did?

That doesn't wash. How does one NOT know they can't read? Having a standardized test be the way you're outed is pretty pathetic. Maybe THIS is the role the wonderlic serves for the NFL? Outing the illiterate?


The funny thing is, the longer the people who are wrong in this thread argue that they are right, the more ironic it becomes. There will be more and more kids like this in the future because the high schools are only getting worse, and there will be many more, not less, illiterate kids passed through high school and college solely based on their ability to play a child's sport, and the apologists will only bury their heads deeper in the sand as it happens.

I'm not doubting you have it, but where have you read that there is help for players that have a disability at the Combine?

And no, he did not JUST find out about his disability. Go back and reread what I said. Or, since you're not willing to do that, look at the actual article I referred to.


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...est-score.html
"When Claiborne came out of high school, the schools that recruited him knew he had a learning disability"

It's been known since high school. Like I said, not something that magically appeared. He knew he had the disability and that obviously made him struggle on the test (though again, I highly doubt it's a 4). There's a 99% chance teams knew about it. The Wonderlic tells us nothing about him. And obviously, this hasn't affected his football player that much or he wouldn't have been a starting corner int he SEC.

Love that everything comes down to "apologists" and those that are "right". Those are the only two categories that exist in your world.

[zulater]

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has sent a memo to all 32 teams threatening "significant discipline" to anyone caught leaking confidential information gathered on draft prospects to the public.

The Associated Press obtained the memo, which was sent on Wednesday night after reports that LSU defensive back Morris Claiborne allegedly scored poorly on the Wonderlic test. The exam is used by NFL teams to try to gauge a prospect's intelligence, problem-solving ability and cognitive skills.

Claiborne scored a 4 out of 50 on the test administered at the NFL scouting combine in February, sources confirmed to ESPN.

League rules prohibit officials from disclosing the results, but scores have routinely been leaked for years, both of the very poor and very high variety.

In his memo, Goodell stresses that Wonderlic scores, personal and family histories and drug tests are to be kept strictly confidential.

"You should be reminded that disclosure of inappropriate private or confidential information concerning draft-eligible players is conduct detrimental to the league and will be met with significant discipline when a violation can be established," Goodell wrote.

Much of the information is collected at the annual combine in February. But every year, as the draft gets closer, some teams and officials leak certain information in part to possibly influence how the draft plays out. A poor Wonderlic score or a failed drug test could significantly hurt a player's stock and change the perception of that player with the fan base of the team that chooses him.

"Bear in mind that the publicly disclosed information is frequently inaccurate, incomplete or misleading, and often results from an effort of an individual to advance a self-interested goal," Goodell wrote.

"What is lost in the pursuit of that goal is concern for the reputation and well-being of the young men who have worked so hard to reach their own goal of becoming an NFL player and concern for the reputation of the NFL and our game."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/sto...onderlic-leaks

[suitanim]

I'm not doubting you have it, but where have you read that there is help for players that have a disability at the Combine?

And no, he did not JUST find out about his disability. Go back and reread what I said. Or, since you're not willing to do that, look at the actual article I referred to.


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...est-score.html
"When Claiborne came out of high school, the schools that recruited him knew he had a learning disability"

It's been known since high school. Like I said, not something that magically appeared. He knew he had the disability and that obviously made him struggle on the test (though again, I highly doubt it's a 4). There's a 99% chance teams knew about it. The Wonderlic tells us nothing about him. And obviously, this hasn't affected his football player that much or he wouldn't have been a starting corner int he SEC.

Love that everything comes down to "apologists" and those that are "right". Those are the only two categories that exist in your world.

I'm tired of looking up sources only to be told that I'm still wrong. I believe something like 65 other players have sought out this help. What does it matter, though? There are always more excuses. The kid will do fine in the NFL, so this will swept under the rug. You and yours will be vindicated as being "right" because yet another kid who can't read gets to be a millionaire, and we all get to enjoy our bread and circus...

I see Goodell took a bold stance..."How dare you leak another score proving yet another kid can't read!"

Bullshit. This is exactly why this problem will only get worse.

[Chidi29]

I'm tired of looking up sources only to be told that I'm still wrong. I believe something like 65 other players have sought out this help. What does it matter, though? There are always more excuses. The kid will do fine in the NFL, so this will swept under the rug. You and yours will be vindicated as being "right" because yet another kid who can't read gets to be a millionaire, and we all get to enjoy our bread and circus...

I see Goodell took a bold stance..."How dare you leak another score proving yet another kid can't read!"

Bullshit. This is exactly why this problem will only get worse.

All I'm asking you to do is to provide a link to your claim. I never said you were wrong. Heck, I said I figured you had a source. But if you aren't willing to take two seconds to link it (something I've been doing with my info) then don't bother making the argument.

First, it's illegal to disclose any Wonderlic score. Good or bad. Greg McElroy's original score of 48 last year was leaked...only to be proven incorrect. And like Goodell said, often times these leaks are incorrect. It's very possible, and as I've maintained, likely, that Claiborne did not get a four. That he got a 10 or 15.

Again, this particular issue has nothing to do with colleges being diploma mills. It's about a kid with a learning disability who is getting unfairly and harshly criticized for something he can't control.

[ShutDown24]

The kid will do fine in the NFL, so this will swept under the rug.

Again, you kill your own argument. If he'll be a successful player then why does the league insist the draftees take the wonderlic? According to you, they wouldn't if it had any use, right? Your running circles around your own statements.

[suitanim]

The point continues to be that the big college football mills are nothing more than a FREE feeder league for the NFL. Situations like this only highlight that point. When something like this leaks out, rather than look a little deeper at the uncomfortable truth, most people do what is quick and painless and easy: "Who cares what his score is? Can he play?"

I believe the illiteracy rate in Detroit is 50%. Just read a report that it's HIGHER than that in East Cleveland (although I don't have a source, so I MUST be making it up, right?). But nobody wants to talk about that, so when a kid comes along that clearly can't read, we need to fire up the old excuse machine and find a way to pass him through to the NFL...and APOLOGIZE TO HIM because he can't read.

World gone mad.

(Here's a source...it's PFT, but it's quoting the combine president):
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...the-wonderlic/

Jeff Foster, president of National Scouting and the National Invitational Camp (otherwise known as the Scouting Combine), explained to PFT by phone on Wednesday the procedure used when a player has a learning disability. Foster said that, in such cases, the player communicates the existence of the disability in advance of the test. Then, documentation of the disability is obtained from the athlete’s school, and research is done regarding the accommodations provided to the player when taking tests at his college.

Once the learning disability is confirmed, Wonderlic will authorize an “untimed accommodation.” Under this approach, the player takes the 50-question test within the 12-minute allotment. That effort is scored separately, and the player is then permitted to continue taking the test for as long as he needs to complete it. The Wonderlic people later apply a formula to determine the score based on the answers supplied during the 12-minute window and the answers coming thereafter.

[suitanim]

Which begs the question: Did this kid just NOW discover he had a learning disability? Or was the NFL unable to verify the LD? Or is it that the kid just can't read?

[Steeldude]

I doubt it was a 4, that seems a little high

So he has a learning disability? Is that the excuse for "not paying attention in school for 12+ years"?

Why shouldn't the scores be made public? They allow scores from their physical tests to be released to the public.

[fansince'76]

Why shouldn't the scores be made public? They allow scores from their physical tests to be released to the public.

Exactly. Goodell cited this (typically ridiculous) reason for not releasing Wonderlic scores:

Much of the information is collected at the annual combine in February. But every year, as the draft gets closer, some teams and officials leak certain information in part to possibly influence how the draft plays out. A poor Wonderlic score or a failed drug test could significantly hurt a player's stock and change the perception of that player with the fan base of the team that chooses him.

Well, wouldn't the same hold true for a subpar 40 time for a WR or a poor number of bench presses for a lineman? "Change the perception of the player with the fan base of the team that chooses him?" Are you kidding me? If the kid turns out to be a stud, the "fan base" isn't going to give a rat's ass if he got popped on a piss test or what his Wonderlic score was.

[Count Steeler]

Which begs the question: Did this kid just NOW discover he had a learning disability? Or was the NFL unable to verify the LD? Or is it that the kid just can't read?

It would seem from Chidi29's link that he was working on his disability through school.