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Thread: Trayvon Martin

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    Klaatu barada nikto Array title="suitanim has a brilliant future"> suitanim's Avatar

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    Trayvon Martin

    This story is a month old, and the popular press is just getting around to it, but it's been getting attention from alt outlets and NPR for awhile now. If you are unfamiliar, here is some background:

    http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-...-abc-news.html

    Anyway, a few thoughts. First off, this "stand your ground" law in Florida sounds kind of dumb. It basically states that if you are threatened, you are allowed to retaliate with deadly force and do not need to retreat. I say it's dumb because isn't that already the case? In THIS case, it actually sounds to me like if anyone in this situation could stand behind this law, it would be the dead kid, and NOT Zimmerman. After all, this guy was clearly stalking the kid, and menacing him. At the point of confrontation, it sounds to me like Martin was the only person threatened, not Zimmerman. And it's quite clear to me that the Sanford police department botched this and should have immediately arrested Zimmerman, who is quite obviously a racist, and his racism led to him now being a murderer.

    HOWEVER, I am a little concerned about all this one-sided outrage from the black community. There is shared culpability here, and it's getting glossed over because it's un-PC to say what I'm about to say. If we are ever going to open up a real and honest dialogue, we have GOT to address the culture of fear that exists in BOTH communities, white and black. The black community has a deep distrust of the police, and there is certainly merit to that distrust. I think things are better, but not fixed. My concern is with the fact that there is a lot of founded fear in the white community that leads to troubling incidents like this. Let me give you an example from right in my own backyard.

    In Akron (which used to be the tire capitol of the world) there was what used to be a very nice neighborhood called Firestone Park. this was a company community built around the Firestone tire plants pretty much designed for the workers. The community has fallen on some rougher times, and one of the recent bad developments is roving gangs of black boys "wilding", which is basically just a bunch of kids running around and randomly beating up white people whilst yelling racial epithets at their victims. This is, in my book, a hate crime, but it's never prosecuted as such because that too is un-PC (I vehemently disagree with hate crimes, but that is a topic for another discussion). This kind of behavior creates a very, very dangerous atmosphere in which white people live in a state of constant fear of young black men, and I want to make this point crystal clear, and the YOUNG BLACK MEN CREATE THIS IMAGE BY THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR. The black community accepts no culpability for this, and, when one of these young black men is eventually shot by a white person, the outrage from the black community, as we all know, will be fast and furious.

    IMO, until the black community accepts responsibility for these young men for their part in this "state of fear", I don't believe we will ever reach a time or place where things like this aren't going to happen.

    This case in Florida is reprehensible, and Zimmerman should be tried and convicted of first-degree murder, as he was told to back off, and actually doubled back around and clearly pressed the issue with intent and previous forethought of what he was doing. But until we can find a way to address both the founded fears of both communities, I see no end to these kinds of events in the future.
    Fire Goodell

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    Reigning Black & Gold Array title="venom has a reputation beyond repute"> venom's Avatar

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    First degree murder is hard to get . You have to prove that the shooting was knowingly or premeditated , which in this case it wasn't. Sad to say due to the kid had no weapon( s )on him , but I rather be judged by 12 than be carried by 6

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Oh, this was definitely premeditated. He was told to stop. He did, then doubled back and confronted the kid. Who had nothing on him other than some candy. The kid said "Why are you following me?", and Zimmerman said "Fucking coons" and it's even on the 911 tapes. It WASN'T premeditated until he turned around and went back against police orders. At that point he clearly had an agenda to confront this kid, and since there was never an imminent threat to Zimmerman other than one he might have created himself, that makes the shooting a premeditated murder.

    I'm sorry, this is open and shut.

    HOWEVER, had this been reversed, and a black man did the shooting, and HE was not arrested, we'd have never even heard about it. Nor would we hear about it if it was black-on-black. It's interesting to me that George Clooney spends all this time and effort to stop Africans killing Africans in Africa but completely ignores all the African Americans killing African Americans in his own backyard...
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Anyway, a few thoughts. First off, this "stand your ground" law in Florida sounds kind of dumb. It basically states that if you are threatened, you are allowed to retaliate with deadly force and do not need to retreat. I say it's dumb because isn't that already the case?
    No, it's not. I agree that it *should* be the case and we shouldn't need a law spelling it out, but that's not where the law is currently.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    The poor kid called his girlfriend because he was worried about a man following him. He ran away, but the guy caught up to him. Culture of fear is right. "Hello, Police? There's a black kid in my neighborhood."

    You can't shoot a person walking down the street because you *think* he *might* have a weapon. Clearly a case of racism or extreme stupidity.


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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    I see your point, Suit, and I definitely agree with black kids creating the negative image, but it does not in any way excuse what this man did. This incident deserves every bit of the outrage it is getting.








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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    I see your point, Suit, and I definitely agree with black kids creating the negative image, but it does not in any way excuse what this man did. This incident deserves every bit of the outrage it is getting.
    Never suggested it didn't. I'm nearly stating that there IS a culture of fear that created this situation and there is plenty of blame to spread around. It's wrong to selectively ignore inconvenient truth's, and we need to have a more open and honest dialogue or this will happen again and again and again...
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Never suggested it didn't. I'm nearly stating that there IS a culture of fear that created this situation and there is plenty of blame to spread around. It's wrong to selectively ignore inconvenient truth's, and we need to have a more open and honest dialogue or this will happen again and again and again...
    Even so, a 17 year old kid who doesn't live in the hood can in no way be responsible for the behavior of inner-city thugs.

    The irony is, if Martin had been a gangbanger, Zimmerman would have a lot more to worry about.

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Again, there is a pervasive culture of fear spread across EVERY neighborhood in this Country, and, yes, Zimmerman stereotyped, and yes, it is Zimmerman's racism that led to this unfortunate escalation. BUT there is a basis for that fear and for that stereotype, and it's precisely this kind of PC talk that buries it. We are ALLOWED to discuss how the police unfairly profile people of color, and we are ALLOWED to discuss institutionalized racism, but we are NOT allowed to discuss the root causes of why stuff like this happens.

    Tell you what, I'll let someone else make my point. I'm white, and while I don't suffer from white guilt, other white people do and that handicap disables them from ever being open and honest on the subject. Let me re-post what a black man had to say about this same subject:

    http://globalgrind.com/node/828637#ixzz1pmb9s5ri

    Dear Black People,
    Look in the mirror; are you the reason why Trayvon Martin is dead?
    This morning when I woke up, I put on my black Invisible Bully hoodie, a pair of blue jeans and my sneakers. As I looked in the mirror I thought of Michael Skolnik's blog. I hate to admit it, but I looked suspicious. Then my heart sank into the pit of my stomach as I thought to myself, 'Could I be to blame for Trayvon Martin's death?'

    I am not a thug, I am a vital part of a team that helps Russell Simmons run his multi-million dollar businesses. But in a dark alley, I am the reason ladies clutch their purse.
    I started crying right there. My heart filled with guilt as I couldn't help but feel I have in some way propelled the stereotypes that plague black men.
    I've learned to live with those stereotypes. We quickly learn that our dreams ain't what it seems. All black men know these streets are not safe for us. We know that we might end up on the wrong side of a cop's bullet for pulling out our wallets. We know that seeing a cop doesn't make us feel protected or safe, but instead, fear for our lives.


    Since I was a young boy, that is how I learned to live. And unless things change I'll raise my sons the same way. At any moment, a young black male can end up like Trayvon Martin.
    I embraced the hip-hop culture. I remember wearing my headphones on the train singing rap lyrics from Wu-Tang, Biggie, and others. I was expressing the struggles of what blacks have to go through in America. But to others, I was just a rowdy urban youth, up to no good, in desperate need of a belt. Hip-hop captures those emotions we felt better than anything, but instead of identifying it as giving voice to our cries for help, they dubbed it gangsta rap.
    was born in the projects, the hand I was dealt wasn't a great one. My father was an abusive alcoholic, and my mother a high school drop out. Add in the fact that God popped me on the Earth dead smack in the middle of the crack era, it's safe to say I grew up in a war zone. In the hood we are told many things, which were outlined in Aloe Blacc's song "Life Is So Hard:"
    "I don't buy that line that it's nature's design you different, you ugly, you evil, you wrong
    you stupid, you dumb, your mind ain't too strong
    your daddy ain't from here, so you don't belong
    and the list goes on and on and on and on...."
    I must let you know that in the slums of America you have no choice but to look suspicious. Because if you don't, you get robbed, picked on, or worse: accused of acting white. I suffered those allegations. While my baggy jeans showed off my lack of fashion sense, I headed to my gifted and talented school every day and excelled. Excelled around a group of white kids who ridiculed me every single day. They thought and assumed I was something I was not. Poor project trash who didn't belong. I wonder what George Zimmerman would think of me if he saw me in his neighborhood. I wonder if I would make it out.
    Trayvon didn't have to die! Not for that, not for going to get a pack of Skittles.
    It's time for a change! We must stop feeding these stereotypes by killing each other, and not by accusing our brothers and sisters of "acting white."
    At the same time, white America needs to understand that our clothes and music do not define us. We are fathers, brothers and sons who want to experience the American dream as well. Right now it's just a nightmare.

    Fire Goodell

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    Senior Member Array title="SteelerEmpire has a spectacular aura about"> SteelerEmpire's Avatar

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Bottom line: Zimmerman is in big trouble.

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    Ghost Poster Array title="ALLD has a reputation beyond repute"> ALLD's Avatar

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerEmpire View Post
    Bottom line: Zimmerman is in big trouble.
    I concur. He did not use his weapon responsibly. He was trying to be a misguided hero and killed somebody. He deserves jail time. I recently observed a similar issue where a Hispanic female was beaten up while handcuffed by a white redneck police officer. She did make a moving violation, but she did not deserve to get beat up.
    All Defense!

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Zimmerman should either fry or be locked up forever. I would NOT have said that if he'd not been told to back down, but once the cops said "You don't need to follow him", and he continued to, and then went even farther and confronted the kid (and, to my mind, he had only one intention in mind at that point), he moved from "crime of passion" to full-on premeditated murder.

    But, again, that's rather obvious. I'm speaking more to the underlying issue. The US's culture of fear. How fear makes us do stupid things. How black fear of police plays into white fear of blacks, and the cascading effect of this.
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    How black fear of police plays into white fear of blacks, and the cascading effect of this.
    Just a reminder to everyone that Zimmerman isn't white.

    That fact isn't convenient to the media's narrative, so they've spun it to the point where many people aren't aware.
    The stories (and there are many) of black teens targeting whites for hate crimes are being completely suppressed for the exact same reason; they don't fit the narrative.

    This is not to minimize or excuse anybody's behavior on any part, but rather to point out that you really can't take the media's account at face value. They only present what they want you to see and they spin stories so that they leave the impressions they approve of.
    As Suit said (and I agree)
    It's wrong to selectively ignore inconvenient truths, and we need to have a more open and honest dialogue or this will happen again and again and again...
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    It seems that the mainstream press picking up on this has fueled some of the alt press and public radio to address it more intensely. After listening more and more to viewpoints from all sides and communities, I'm more and more convinced that it was in fact MARTIN who would have had the best claim to a "stand your ground" defense. Zimmerman was the aggressor. And while both were obviously in fear, Martin was a passive victim, and Zimmerman was the aggressor who deliberately caused this escalation. So I'm not quite sure how this guy is still avoiding arrest...
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by ALLD View Post
    I concur. He did not use his weapon responsibly. He was trying to be a misguided hero and killed somebody. He deserves jail time. I recently observed a similar issue where a Hispanic female was beaten up while handcuffed by a white redneck police officer. She did make a moving violation, but she did not deserve to get beat up.
    I agree. But whats worse than a grown man molesting a kid ? A grown man killing a kid !

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Just a reminder to everyone that Zimmerman isn't white.

    That fact isn't convenient to the media's narrative, so they've spun it to the point where many people aren't aware.
    The stories (and there are many) of black teens targeting whites for hate crimes are being completely suppressed for the exact same reason; they don't fit the narrative.

    This is not to minimize or excuse anybody's behavior on any part, but rather to point out that you really can't take the media's account at face value. They only present what they want you to see and they spin stories so that they leave the impressions they approve of.
    As Suit said (and I agree)

    Well, in fairness I've seen Zimmerman's photo on TV several times. The MSM (at least CNN anyway) isn't trying to cover up Zimmerman's ethnicity.

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfather View Post
    Well, in fairness I've seen Zimmerman's photo on TV several times. The MSM (at least CNN anyway) isn't trying to cover up Zimmerman's ethnicity.
    Everything I've heard from the beginning said he was Hispanic or half Hispanic. Two points about that: One, this was a predominantly white neighborhood. Two, I've heard some people defending Zimmerman saying "Oh, he wasn't racist...he's half Hispanic". The first is important because it speaks to my argument about a culture of fear in white neighborhoods and communities, the second is ridiculous because it's a claim that somehow Hispanics or people of other colors can't be racist. Bullshit. Some of the most outspoken and obvious racists I've met have been black and Hispanic...the latter ESPECIALLY in regards to other Hispanics!
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    This story is a month old, and the popular press is just getting around to it, but it's been getting attention from alt outlets and NPR for awhile now. If you are unfamiliar, here is some background:

    http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-...-abc-news.html

    Anyway, a few thoughts. First off, this "stand your ground" law in Florida sounds kind of dumb. It basically states that if you are threatened, you are allowed to retaliate with deadly force and do not need to retreat. I say it's dumb because isn't that already the case? In THIS case, it actually sounds to me like if anyone in this situation could stand behind this law, it would be the dead kid, and NOT Zimmerman. After all, this guy was clearly stalking the kid, and menacing him. At the point of confrontation, it sounds to me like Martin was the only person threatened, not Zimmerman. And it's quite clear to me that the Sanford police department botched this and should have immediately arrested Zimmerman, who is quite obviously a racist, and his racism led to him now being a murderer.

    HOWEVER, I am a little concerned about all this one-sided outrage from the black community. There is shared culpability here, and it's getting glossed over because it's un-PC to say what I'm about to say. If we are ever going to open up a real and honest dialogue, we have GOT to address the culture of fear that exists in BOTH communities, white and black. The black community has a deep distrust of the police, and there is certainly merit to that distrust. I think things are better, but not fixed. My concern is with the fact that there is a lot of founded fear in the white community that leads to troubling incidents like this. Let me give you an example from right in my own backyard.

    In Akron (which used to be the tire capitol of the world) there was what used to be a very nice neighborhood called Firestone Park. this was a company community built around the Firestone tire plants pretty much designed for the workers. The community has fallen on some rougher times, and one of the recent bad developments is roving gangs of black boys "wilding", which is basically just a bunch of kids running around and randomly beating up white people whilst yelling racial epithets at their victims. This is, in my book, a hate crime, but it's never prosecuted as such because that too is un-PC (I vehemently disagree with hate crimes, but that is a topic for another discussion). This kind of behavior creates a very, very dangerous atmosphere in which white people live in a state of constant fear of young black men, and I want to make this point crystal clear, and the YOUNG BLACK MEN CREATE THIS IMAGE BY THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR. The black community accepts no culpability for this, and, when one of these young black men is eventually shot by a white person, the outrage from the black community, as we all know, will be fast and furious.

    IMO, until the black community accepts responsibility for these young men for their part in this "state of fear", I don't believe we will ever reach a time or place where things like this aren't going to happen.

    This case in Florida is reprehensible, and Zimmerman should be tried and convicted of first-degree murder, as he was told to back off, and actually doubled back around and clearly pressed the issue with intent and previous forethought of what he was doing. But until we can find a way to address both the founded fears of both communities, I see no end to these kinds of events in the future.
    Suit, may I have permission to post this on another forum that is discussing the same issue? I can't express it any better than this.

  19. #19
    Klaatu barada nikto Array title="suitanim has a brilliant future"> suitanim's Avatar

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Sure. Be prepared to duck though...
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Everything I've heard from the beginning said he was Hispanic or half Hispanic. Two points about that: One, this was a predominantly white neighborhood. Two, I've heard some people defending Zimmerman saying "Oh, he wasn't racist...he's half Hispanic". The first is important because it speaks to my argument about a culture of fear in white neighborhoods and communities, the second is ridiculous because it's a claim that somehow Hispanics or people of other colors can't be racist. Bullshit. Some of the most outspoken and obvious racists I've met have been black and Hispanic...the latter ESPECIALLY in regards to other Hispanics!
    I haven't heard anyone arguing that, so I guess your mileage varies. My point is that a hispanic racist shooting a black kid doesn't actually have anything to do white fear of minorities or fear of the police in African-American communities. Yeah, this was a predominantly white neighborhood, but practically all American communities fit that description.
    What irks me is how the police handled it. It was clear from their statements in the news that they didn't investigate this very thoroughly before releasing the perp.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Apparently there is a new development: An eyewitness came forward and claims that Martin was beating Zimmerman and had him on the ground, and ZIMMERMAN was the one yelling for help.

    Regardless, Zimmerman still escalated this, so the "Stand your ground" defense still plays for Martin, but it's complicated because Zimmerman in turn had a right to defend himself, even though his actions led to an escalation.
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    For all we know, Zimmerman could be telling the truth (doubtful IMO), but the fact that the police just relied on the testimony of a the shooter, in an incident where somebody died, frightens me. They should have interviewed all the witnesses. I'm worried about the police mishandling cases that could possibly be first degree murder.

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    For all we know, Zimmerman could be telling the truth (doubtful IMO), but the fact that the police just relied on the testimony of a the shooter, in an incident where somebody died, frightens me. They should have interviewed all the witnesses. I'm worried about the police mishandling cases that could possibly be first degree murder.
    If the eyewitness is credible, then that changes things. Zimmerman would be guilty of stalking/intimidating/menacing or something along those lines. He will also be charged with murder, but he'd get off on self defense. Then Martin would be charged with maybe second degree murder, but he'd get off the stand-your-ground because if he felt threatened (and why wouldn't he?), he's allowed to fight back. And when he fought back, he escalated it, which caused Zimmerman to escalate as HE at that point also probably felt like his life was in danger.

    Very complicated. But it clarifies that Martin was probably not the saint that he's been portrayed as. I don't think this changes the perception of Zimmerman at all, he's still a racist with a big "fear" issue.
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Apparently there is a new development: An eyewitness came forward and claims that Martin was beating Zimmerman and had him on the ground, and ZIMMERMAN was the one yelling for help.

    Regardless, Zimmerman still escalated this, so the "Stand your ground" defense still plays for Martin, but it's complicated because Zimmerman in turn had a right to defend himself, even though his actions led to an escalation.

    Its in here Suit -

    http://www.trayvon.tk/

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by venom View Post
    Its in here Suit -

    http://www.trayvon.tk/
    In light of these facts, all I can say is, who the hell knows what actually happened...

    I don't know which side to take. On one hand, an innocent teenager could have been murdered by an overzealous racist, and on the other hand, some guy could be being demonized and threatened for defending himself. Who the hell knows.

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Yeah, well, I'm confused. My GUESS is that martin jumped a fence to get away from Zimmerman. I still maintain that he was in the wrong for escalating the situation. Now there are reports that Martin went for the gun. It's all very convoluted.

    Martin was also suspended from school for possessing marijuana. Not a saint by any means...but that still doesn't give Zimmerman the right to play vigilante for a kid who was doing nothing but walking down the street. And I STILL haven't heard any honest and open dialect about root causes for this.
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    In light of these facts, all I can say is, who the hell knows what actually happened...

    I don't know which side to take. On one hand, an innocent teenager could have been murdered by an overzealous racist, and on the other hand, some guy could be being demonized and threatened for defending himself. Who the hell knows.
    Yeah I think this is where I'm at too.

    I guess my one thought would be that a neighborhood watch group really shouldn't be armed with anything more than communication devices to contact proper authorities or other members of the watch. The use of lethal weapons has to be left to trained professionals.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Apparently he was permitted to carry the gun because he completed some community watch/ wannabee cop 4 month program and was hoping to be a cop.

    I read on reuters today that Zimmerman is a white Hispanic man.

    They just had to toss the white part in there....didn't they?

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    Re: Trayvon Martin

    I don't see why it matters. Hispanics are very racist. When I lived in Orlando, my employees were always going on about the different races. The Puerto Ricans hated the Cubans and vice versa, and they all hated the Mexicans and Haitians, and so on and so forth. Being black or Hispanic doesn't mean you can't be racist. In fact, I'd say in many cases it might make you MORE racist. The important thing again is this culture of fear that makes people do ridiculous things.
    Fire Goodell

  30. #30
    Member Array title="Arkiesteel is an unknown quantity at this point">

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    45

    Re: Trayvon Martin

    Living out in the sticks and rocks where I live in rural Arkansas, I recall sitting on the porch of an old man that lived down the road and he said "Doug I seen a black guy drive down our road today". I didn't think much of it until he said "Doug I lived here for 47 years in this house and never seen a black guy on our road". Now he was not at a level of being alarmed he was just stating a fact that he had seen, the neighbors did not go on lock down and the shotguns was not all loaded, but it was a strange event for where I live. Now with that said if a black guy or any non white person was to knock on your door after dark I could see 911 being called, the dog being let out and guns being drawn, is that right? Not really, but when things that do not normally happen around you happen it raises the sense of alarm. I know this has really nothing to do with this shooting, but what Suitanim stated in his first post is very much alive in this country. I would guess a truck loaded full of rednecks and hillbillies driving into a inner city black neighborhood would cause the exact response, I only wonder which situation would be safer for whom. As a country we still have a lot of growing and a long ways to go before these response (be they a learned response or not) are not automatic.

    just my thoughts on this

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