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Thread: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

  1. #31
    Spaghetti Time Array title="Chidi29 has a reputation beyond repute"> Chidi29's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    What they did was obviously wrong and they were rightfully punished for it, and I don't get/agree with the fact the tapes were destroyed, but let's not act like this has never happened in the NFL prior to New England. Heck, it's probably gone on after they were caught by some other team.

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    They didn't win Super Bowls before and haven't won one after.. So I would say it still holds weight that they had to cheat to win, and knew what plays were coming as they were called.

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    What they did was obviously wrong and they were rightfully punished for it, and I don't get/agree with the fact the tapes were destroyed, but let's not act like this has never happened in the NFL prior to New England. Heck, it's probably gone on after they were caught by some other team.
    Do you have any evidence to support that other teams are or have done this???

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    As I stated before and elsewhere, the tapes and stealing signals gave them huge competitive advantages that whittled down as the games got bigger. You can't intercept radio frequencies in the Super Bowl!

    But there were still advantages. They won Super Bowls by 3 points with them. They lost by 4 yesterday without.
    Fire Goodell

  5. #35
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch View Post
    Do you have any evidence to support that other teams are or have done this???
    Of course.

    http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com..._the_film.html

    Belichick the innovator felt the backhand of the regulators in 2007 when the NFL fined him $500,000 for videotaping the New York Jets coaching staff sending plays to their defensive players via hand signals. But Belichick hardly was the first, nor will he be the last NFL coach to make such use of video.

    In his 1986 book, They’re Playing My Game, former Kansas City coach Hank Stram openly noted that during a playoff game between the Cowboys and the Los Angeles Rams that he was broadcasting that “[e]yes and TV cameras follow the action upfield, all except the camera fixed on the bench of the team opposite our vantage point. Its operator keeps the viewfinder trained on the far sideline and the zoom tight on the two assistants who motion signals to the quarterback on the field. One of them is really signaling, the other is a decoy. Both are being filmed. Later the footage of their signals will be painstakingly matched with the plays to which they correspond, then analyzed, cross-referenced, and the signals decoded.”

    In his preview of the 2011 NFL season, Sports Illustrated’s Peter King wrote that a defensive coordinator for an NFC team “says his video crew reviews telecasts and transcribes the presnap calls of opposing quarterbacks, and pairs those with the play. The information is analyzed to see what patterns can be discerned.

    “It’s perilously close to what got the Patriots in hot water during Spygate,” King added, “but because the audio is available over public airwaves, there’s no NFL rule against it.”

    Indeed, in 1980, Sports Illustrated’s Paul Zimmerman wrote a story entitled “The Stolen Signals Caper,” in which Houston Oilers’ linebacker and defensive signal-caller Gregg Bingham claimed that the key to his team’s collection of five interceptions from San Diego quarterback Dan Fouts and resulting 17-14 playoff upset of the Chargers was the ability of Houston defensive coordinator Ed Biles to decipher the hand signals that San Diego used to transmit the play from the sideline to Fouts.

  6. #36
    Spaghetti Time Array title="Chidi29 has a reputation beyond repute"> Chidi29's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Got awfully quiet in here...

  7. #37
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    Of course.

    http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3994_With_Belichick,_NFL,_it's_all_about_the_fi lm.html

    Belichick the innovator felt the backhand of the regulators in 2007 when the NFL fined him $500,000 for videotaping the New York Jets coaching staff sending plays to their defensive players via hand signals. But Belichick hardly was the first, nor will he be the last NFL coach to make such use of video.

    In his 1986 book, They’re Playing My Game, former Kansas City coach Hank Stram openly noted that during a playoff game between the Cowboys and the Los Angeles Rams that he was broadcasting that “[e]yes and TV cameras follow the action upfield, all except the camera fixed on the bench of the team opposite our vantage point. Its operator keeps the viewfinder trained on the far sideline and the zoom tight on the two assistants who motion signals to the quarterback on the field. One of them is really signaling, the other is a decoy. Both are being filmed. Later the footage of their signals will be painstakingly matched with the plays to which they correspond, then analyzed, cross-referenced, and the signals decoded.”

    In his preview of the 2011 NFL season, Sports Illustrated’s Peter King wrote that a defensive coordinator for an NFC team “says his video crew reviews telecasts and transcribes the presnap calls of opposing quarterbacks, and pairs those with the play. The information is analyzed to see what patterns can be discerned.

    “It’s perilously close to what got the Patriots in hot water during Spygate,” King added, “but because the audio is available over public airwaves, there’s no NFL rule against it.”

    Indeed, in 1980, Sports Illustrated’s Paul Zimmerman wrote a story entitled “The Stolen Signals Caper,” in which Houston Oilers’ linebacker and defensive signal-caller Gregg Bingham claimed that the key to his team’s collection of five interceptions from San Diego quarterback Dan Fouts and resulting 17-14 playoff upset of the Chargers was the ability of Houston defensive coordinator Ed Biles to decipher the hand signals that San Diego used to transmit the play from the sideline to Fouts.
    Nothing about one team's staffer videotaping on an opposing team's sideline in there, interestingly enough. And CHFF? Anything from PatsFans.com on the subject?

  8. #38

    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    Got awfully quiet in here...
    Thats because you have blinders on in regards to Goodell and the Patriots....

    The truth is that regardless of what other teams were doing prior to 2006...The NFL sent a memo out in September of that year clarifying what was and what was not allowed. Every team was told that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game." If the Patriots thought it was a gray area..they would have ceased doing it at that point.

    Since that clarification ...to the best of my knowledge ..only two coaches have violated the rule against cheating through video taping. Both were members of the same Patriot staff. In fact the Broncos video assistant that was caught... Dante Scarnecchia...was a video assistant for the Patriots in 2001–2004.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

  9. #39

    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    On a side note...When the Bears were looking for a GM....I heard a couple of talking heads discussing what the Bears needed. One of them said they needed someone who could evaluate talent like Bill Belichick. I serious laughed out loud!!!!!

    The whole persona of Bill Belichich being a "Genious".....is so assanine that it defies logic. His record shows that he absoutley SUCKS at drafting and evaluating talent.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

  10. #40
    Spaghetti Time Array title="Chidi29 has a reputation beyond repute"> Chidi29's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    Thats because you have blinders on in regards to Goodell and the Patriots....

    The truth is that regardless of what other teams were doing prior to 2006...The NFL sent a memo out in September of that year clarifying what was and what was not allowed. Every team was told that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game." If the Patriots thought it was a gray area..they would have ceased doing it at that point.

    Since that clarification ...to the best of my knowledge ..only two coaches have violated the rule against cheating through video taping. Both were members of the same Patriot staff. In fact the Broncos video assistant that was caught... Dante Scarnecchia...was a video assistant for the Patriots in 2001–2004.
    And I said what the Patriots did was wrong. There's no question about that.

    I'm saying that they weren't the first nor the last to do that or something similar to that.

  11. #41

    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    And I said what the Patriots did was wrong. There's no question about that.

    I'm saying that they weren't the first nor the last to do that or something similar to that.
    The problem is...you seem to imply that those who (allegedly) were doing so prior to the the leagues clarification...are just as guilty as those who were caught. You also seem to minimize the implications surrounding the motivation of Belichick and McDaniels in continuing to videoape well after they KNEW it was illegal and minimize the fact that every single person involved in every known videotaping incident in the modern era is a product of the Patriot system.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

  12. #42
    Spaghetti Time Array title="Chidi29 has a reputation beyond repute"> Chidi29's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    The problem is...you seem to imply that those who (allegedly) were doing so prior to the the leagues clarification...are just as guilty as those who were caught. You also seem to minimize the implications surrounding the motivation of Belichick and McDaniels in continuing to videoape well after they KNEW it was illegal and minimize the fact that every single person involved in every known videotaping incident in the modern era is a product of the Patriot system.
    Check Peter King's comments about a 2011 NFC team doing something very similar, just exploiting a loophole so it isn't illegal.

    And you don't think other teams aren't doing similar?

  13. #43

    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    Check Peter King's comments about a 2011 NFC team doing something very similar, just exploiting a loophole so it isn't illegal.

    And you don't think other teams aren't doing similar?

    There is no "loophole" to what the Patriots were doing

    And again...comparing a possibility to a fact is a silly intellectual excercise. Cheat on your taxes. Then when you get caught...try explaining to to the IRS that they need to look at your transgression through a filter of the possibility that others might be cheating on their taxes. They will be happy to explain to you the difference between what is known and what is suspected.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

  14. #44
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    There is no "loophole" to what the Patriots were doing

    And again...comparing a possibility to a fact is a silly intellectual excercise. Cheat on your taxes. Then when you get caught...try explaining to to the IRS that they need to look at your transgression through a filter of the possibility that others might be cheating on their taxes. They will be happy to explain to you the difference between what is known and what is suspected.
    I'm saying that if at least one team are exploiting that loophole, it's reasonable to assume other teams are as well. While it's not right, what the Pats have been doing has and is common throughout the league.

  15. #45

    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    I'm saying that if at least one team are exploiting that loophole, it's reasonable to assume other teams are as well. While it's not right, what the Pats have been doing has and is common throughout the league.
    Please provide the links that prove:

    A) that other teams were videotaping at the same time the Patriots were
    B) That it is still common practice throughout the league.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

  16. #46
    Spaghetti Time Array title="Chidi29 has a reputation beyond repute"> Chidi29's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    Please provide the links that prove:

    A) that other teams were videotaping at the same time the Patriots were
    B) That it is still common practice throughout the league.
    I just posted where Peter King said a 2011 NFC team was doing something very similar and really only legal (I realize there's a difference) through a loophole.

    In his preview of the 2011 NFL season, Sports Illustrated’s Peter King wrote that a defensive coordinator for an NFC team “says his video crew reviews telecasts and transcribes the presnap calls of opposing quarterbacks, and pairs those with the play. The information is analyzed to see what patterns can be discerned.

    “It’s perilously close to what got the Patriots in hot water during Spygate,” King added, “but because the audio is available over public airwaves, there’s no NFL rule against it.”

    In a 2007 article...

    "There isn't a team in the league that doesn't try to steal signals [but] I haven't heard about teams recording footage like the Patriots were," said one longtime NFL assistant coach. "But you can bet everybody is trying to steal in some way. In fact, you can go to any NFL game and you'll find some coach whose sole job is to look for defensive signals."

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...fri&id=3017423

    And yes, I know in the link it talks a lot about what the Pats doing as different than other teams. Saying what they did was illegal compared to the legal methods other teams take. I'm fully aware of that and like I said, agree what the Pats did was wrong and they were rightfully punished. But other teams do things that are very similar and are able to walk the legality tightrope.

  17. #47

    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    I just posted where Peter King said a 2011 NFC team was doing something very similar and really only legal (I realize there's a difference) through a loophole.

    In his preview of the 2011 NFL season, Sports Illustrated’s Peter King wrote that a defensive coordinator for an NFC team “says his video crew reviews telecasts and transcribes the presnap calls of opposing quarterbacks, and pairs those with the play. The information is analyzed to see what patterns can be discerned.

    “It’s perilously close to what got the Patriots in hot water during Spygate,” King added, “but because the audio is available over public airwaves, there’s no NFL rule against it.”

    In a 2007 article...

    "There isn't a team in the league that doesn't try to steal signals [but] I haven't heard about teams recording footage like the Patriots were," said one longtime NFL assistant coach. "But you can bet everybody is trying to steal in some way. In fact, you can go to any NFL game and you'll find some coach whose sole job is to look for defensive signals."

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...fri&id=3017423

    And yes, I know in the link it talks a lot about what the Pats doing as different than other teams. Saying what they did was illegal compared to the legal methods other teams take. I'm fully aware of that and like I said, agree what the Pats did was wrong and they were rightfully punished. But other teams do things that are very similar and are able to walk the legality tightrope.

    Thats not what you said

    You said that teams were videotaping illegally at the same time that the Patriots were....and that they are still videotaping
    .

    Nothing in those links supports that statement
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

  18. #48
    Spaghetti Time Array title="Chidi29 has a reputation beyond repute"> Chidi29's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    Thats not what you said

    You said that teams were videotaping illegally at the same time that the Patriots were....and that they are still videotaping
    .

    Nothing in those links supports that statement
    I said they did things similar to the Pats, which they did. All situations involve videotaping and/or watching for and stealing signals.

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    I still can't believe all that happened to the Pats* was they got a first round pick taken away....

    Cheating to win 3 SBs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Losing a first round pick.

    Absolute joke.

    Should have taken those trophies and either thrown them away/melted them down, or taken them and shipped them to St. Louis, Charlotte, and Philly.

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Fact is they got caught cheating... Had Goodell not burnt the evidence we would know for sure one way or the other... Since the evidence was destroyed we will never know.. But it being destroyed tells me they cheated and cheated bad enough to cause a fallout the league would not be able to recover from.. So IMHO they cheated and got three Super Bowl rings from it.. Not being able to get another ring since and having two seasons of one and done.. I draw the condlusion they cheated. Brady is now 35.. Billecheat's days IMO are numbered.. Then hopefully they will go back to the franchise I remember them being when they got their lunch money stolen on a weekly basis.. Never met a Patriots*** fan until 2003... Hopefully they go back to the cellar where they belong!!!

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldevil View Post
    I still can't believe all that happened to the Pats* was they got a first round pick taken away....

    Cheating to win 3 SBs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Losing a first round pick.

    Absolute joke.

    Should have taken those trophies and either thrown them away/melted them down, or taken them and shipped them to St. Louis, Charlotte, and Philly.
    Melt them down and put them in an asterick form and cast three astericks.. Make them display them in a case next to the missed field goal football.. Dirt bag Patriots***.. Liked them more from 1959 to 2002, when they never won a damn thing!!!!

  22. #52
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Malley View Post
    Melt them down and put them in an asterick form and cast three astericks.. Make them display them in a case next to the missed field goal football.. Dirt bag Patriots***..
    Thats a great idea. Make them display 3 asterisk trophies.

    That would be amazing.

  23. #53
    Klaatu barada nikto Array title="suitanim has a brilliant future"> suitanim's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    There was obvious and clear signla stealing via videotape.

    And there was a TON of anecdotal evidence that they were AT LEAST tampering with radio frequencies, if not overtly manipulating them, and that's to say that they may have been intercepting them, or interfering with the oppositions, or keeping their own going after the mandated time by subverting the legal process and keeping illegal frequencies going.

    We know the tippy top of the tip of the iceberg. The rest is buried and burned forever. There is EXACTLY one reason why Goodell would bury and burn it. One.
    Fire Goodell

  24. #54
    Senior Member Array title="Butch has a reputation beyond repute"> Butch's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    And again...comparing a possibility to a fact is a silly intellectual excercise.
    Could not have said it any better myself. Nuff said!!!

    Excellent comment.

  25. #55
    Senior Member Array title="Butch has a reputation beyond repute"> Butch's Avatar

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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Without possibly knowing what was on the tapes how could anyone possibly compare any other video taping to what no longer exists and was never released to the public.

  26. #56
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    I bet the Giants did not cheat in their last two Super Bowl appearances.
    All Defense!

  27. #57
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    We know the tippy top of the tip of the iceberg. The rest is buried and burned forever. There is EXACTLY one reason why Goodell would bury and burn it. One.
    He's a moron?

  28. #58
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Malley View Post
    Fact is they got caught cheating... Had Goodell not burnt the evidence we would know for sure one way or the other... Since the evidence was destroyed we will never know.. But it being destroyed tells me they cheated and cheated bad enough to cause a fallout the league would not be able to recover from.. So IMHO they cheated and got three Super Bowl rings from it.. Not being able to get another ring since and having two seasons of one and done.. I draw the condlusion they cheated. Brady is now 35.. Billecheat's days IMO are numbered.. Then hopefully they will go back to the franchise I remember them being when they got their lunch money stolen on a weekly basis.. Never met a Patriots*** fan until 2003... Hopefully they go back to the cellar where they belong!!!

  29. #59
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    He's a moron?
    That too.

  30. #60
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    Re: The elephant in the stadium: Spygate's cloud of innuendo still dogs Patriots*

    the worst part of spygate to me is that belicheat and company weren't even embarrassed about it. they just moved on like nothing happened. they should be in the hall of shame as far as im concerned. 0-2 post cheating..coincidence??

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