Jonathan Dwyer on a Mission to go from Trade Bait to Pittsburgh Steelers Starting RB

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Originally Posted by Steeldude

Not in my opinion, he was a first round pick who put up average numbers : ) I agree about the O-line, but from what I saw from Mendenhall was a soft RB with sub-par attitude. Although, he did toughen up as time went on.

Ok, maybe bust is a tad too strong. How about a bigger than average disappointment? : )

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LOL. The problem however, is that when you compare him to other RBs that were drafted first round around him, he actually rates right in the same group. So, I'd change that to say that the lower half of that entire 1st round draft class was a bigger than average disappointment, and among them, he was average.

You know, with that kind of verbal Judo, maybe I should've been a lawyer?

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Originally Posted by steeldawg

Bell doesn't have to do anything as of right now, because as of right now he is the most talented back on our roster. Yes I remember mendenhall who I thought was very solid despite some major injuries, I take mendenhall over dwyer every single time. Bell will start the season as our running back you can bank on that, we didn't draft him in the second round and switch to a zone blocking scheme because we thought he would be a nice back up fpr jonathan dwyer!

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Sorry, but you're wrong here. Bell has to do everything, because he's an unproven, untested commodity. With Dwyer and Redman we know what we have. We know their strengths and Weaknesses. We know that Redman is a workhorse and will keep his legs churning, but we'll seldom get more than three of four yards out of him per run because he's a no-cut guy. Find the hold and crash it. Dwyer we know has the ability to hit hard and put people on their rear-end. He also has the ability to make a couple cuts and break longer runs, but he's not a guy that can turn nothing into something. He can turn a little into quite a bit more if he gets a good lick on a guy, however.

We know none of that about Bell and as such, Bell should come into this camp penciled in the fourth spot. If he's as good as you think, then he'll easily blow right through the camp fodder and open the eyes of the coaches, making them play him again bigger and better players . . . those that will remain on the 53 man roster, and if he still does well, then those who are starting. But starting him in that position is foolish both for Bell, as he has to learn how to run, block, etc., in the bigger, faster NFL where everything is a lot more technical, and our other RBs that HAVE been there and have proved that they can at least play and spot start, need to get ready for the first game.

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Originally Posted by Preacher

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Bell has to do everything, because he's an unproven, untested commodity. With Dwyer and Redman we know what we have. We know their strengths and Weaknesses. We know that Redman is a workhorse and will keep his legs churning, but we'll seldom get more than three of four yards out of him per run because he's a no-cut guy. Find the hold and crash it. Dwyer we know has the ability to hit hard and put people on their rear-end. He also has the ability to make a couple cuts and break longer runs, but he's not a guy that can turn nothing into something. He can turn a little into quite a bit more if he gets a good lick on a guy, however.

We know none of that about Bell and as such, Bell should come into this camp penciled in the fourth spot. If he's as good as you think, then he'll easily blow right through the camp fodder and open the eyes of the coaches, making them play him again bigger and better players . . . those that will remain on the 53 man roster, and if he still does well, then those who are starting. But starting him in that position is foolish both for Bell, as he has to learn how to run, block, etc., in the bigger, faster NFL where everything is a lot more technical, and our other RBs that HAVE been there and have proved that they can at least play and spot start, need to get ready for the first game.

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He will blow right through camp, this kid is going to open everyone's eyes and he will be the starter to open the season I will guarantee it. Im not saying he doesn't physically have to do anything until the season starts, what im saying is his talent compared to the talent on our depth chart easily puts him in position to start without even taking a snap yet. Dwyer is only 23 and the steelers were trying to trade him, doesn't give me a lot of confidence that he's the guy they want toting the rock. We got the steal of the draft in the second round with this kid and if our O-line can master the zone blocking run scheme you will see our running game back in a big way this season.

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Originally Posted by Preacher

LOL. The problem however, is that when you compare him to other RBs that were drafted first round around him, he actually rates right in the same group. So, I'd change that to say that the lower half of that entire 1st round draft class was a bigger than average disappointment, and among them, he was average.

You know, with that kind of verbal Judo, maybe I should've been a lawyer?

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ah so sucking at drafting in concert with everybody else makes it better!

fuck that. We arent everyone else. We're the pittsburgh steelers and we strive for excellence. Mendenhall was a so so back for us thats fortunate to still be so young and have a chance to live up to his draft status.

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Originally Posted by steeldawg

He will blow right through camp, this kid is going to open everyone's eyes and he will be the starter to open the season I will guarantee it. Im not saying he doesn't physically have to do anything until the season starts, what im saying is his talent compared to the talent on our depth chart easily puts him in position to start without even taking a snap yet. Dwyer is only 23 and the steelers were trying to trade him, doesn't give me a lot of confidence that he's the guy they want toting the rock. We got the steal of the draft in the second round with this kid and if our O-line can master the zone blocking run scheme you will see our running game back in a big way this season.

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And if he does so, I'll be just as happy as everyone else. My point however is that he has to earn that position. It cannot be given to him in camp and there's no way he should enter camp in the number 1 RB position.

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Originally Posted by Psycho Ward 86

ah so sucking at drafting in concert with everybody else makes it better!

fuck that. We arent everyone else. We're the pittsburgh steelers and we strive for excellence. Mendenhall was a so so back for us thats fortunate to still be so young and have a chance to live up to his draft status.

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Sigh.

What does this have to do with the definition of a "bust?" You're arguing about things that make no sense concerning my conversation with Steeldude on what a "bust" is compared to just another RB that didn't make it.

I don't care if its Bell Dwyer or Redman. All I care about is someone gaining yards and the offense scoring touchdowns not field goals this year.

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Originally Posted by Preacher

And if he does so, I'll be just as happy as everyone else. My point however is that he has to earn that position. It cannot be given to him in camp and there's no way he should enter camp in the number 1 RB position.

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Sigh.

What does this have to do with the definition of a "bust?" You're arguing about things that make no sense concerning my conversation with Steeldude on what a "bust" is compared to just another RB that didn't make it.

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Oh Im not concerned where on the depth chart he enters camp but when it comes time for real football he will be starting, we drafted this guy in the second round to start not to back up dwyer. All im saying is once we see this kid running the ball especially in the zone blocking scheme we are going to forget all about dwyer.

Is this general fail at the RB position what we have to look forward to at QB once Roethlisberger hangs them up?

Justs show you how much of a crap shoot the draft is. It is the unmeasurables that make the difference. How do you measure heart? Mendy didn't have it. He had the talent, but not the drive to succeed. Dwyer shows flashes of competency, yet he can't get in shape or keep his weight in check. Redman is an adequate "change up" back, but injuries last year hampered his chance at being the premier back. Let's hope Bell lives up to his draft projections.

Offenses don't win games these days by running the ball these days...it's a passing league


so I see really only 2 main questions...


Can the defense generate a pass rush?

Can the new OL and it's OT's protect Ben?

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Originally Posted by steeldawg

Oh Im not concerned where on the depth chart he enters camp but when it comes time for real football he will be starting, we drafted this guy in the second round to start not to back up dwyer. All im saying is once we see this kid running the ball especially in the zone blocking scheme we are going to forget all about dwyer.

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Not if Dwyer proves to be the better option in camp. Everyone has to earn their playing time. Even if we drafted Bell with the thought of him becoming our starter we still have to wait and see how it plays out.

I would love to see Bell be the back, but we wil see.

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Originally Posted by Nadroj 20

Not if Dwyer proves to be the better option in camp. Everyone has to earn their playing time. Even if we drafted Bell with the thought of him becoming our starter we still have to wait and see how it plays out.

I would love to see Bell be the back, but we wil see.

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Dwyer is clearly not the guy for the steelers, they wanted to trade him in the offseason they switched the running game scheme and drafted a guy who runs that scheme in the second round. Bell was clearly taken to be the guy and he will come out of camp the starter.

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Originally Posted by steeldawg

Dwyer is clearly not the guy for the steelers, they wanted to trade him in the offseason they switched the running game scheme and drafted a guy who runs that scheme in the second round. Bell was clearly taken to be the guy and he will come out of camp the starter.

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Still has to earn it. I don't care if some guy we never even heard of comes on and does better. Maybe Redman has an great TC? All I'm saying is he has to prove he deserves it before he gets it and like I said I hope that is the case. I do see a lot of potential from him.

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Originally Posted by Preacher

And if he does so, I'll be just as happy as everyone else. My point however is that he has to earn that position. It cannot be given to him in camp and there's no way he should enter camp in the number 1 RB position.

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Sigh.

What does this have to do with the definition of a "bust?" You're arguing about things that make no sense concerning my conversation with Steeldude on what a "bust" is compared to just another RB that didn't make it.

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well to clarify, i dont think mendenhall can be considered a bust (yet), but he's getting very close. I was just pointing out how ludicrous it seems to defend mendenhall's underperformance by highlighting other failed 1st round RB's from that draft

its amusing to me that a team and a bunch of draftniks rate a player as a first round talent and they get drafted as such and do not perform as anticipated and suddenly the Player is labeled a bust , the reality of it is should not the scouts and draftniks be considered the bust after all they are the ones who failed to properly evaluate the players ability ..... Mendenhall did NOTHING as a pro that the warning signs where not already abundantly clear ... he was soft , it was clear he was soft before being drafted , football was not his top priority in life he openly stated that before being drafted , he came from a program that was not conducive of what would be asked of him as a pro ...everyone knew that going in ... yet they still graded him out as a first round talent ... so who failed Mendenhall or the Evaluator's ??

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

its amusing to me that a team and a bunch of draftniks rate a player as a first round talent and they get drafted as such and do not perform as anticipated and suddenly the Player is labeled a bust , the reality of it is should not the scouts and draftniks be considered the bust after all they are the ones who failed to properly evaluate the players ability ..... Mendenhall did NOTHING as a pro that the warning signs where not already abundantly clear ... he was soft , it was clear he was soft before being drafted , football was not his top priority in life he openly stated that before being drafted , he came from a program that was not conducive of what would be asked of him as a pro ...everyone knew that going in ... yet they still graded him out as a first round talent ... so who failed Mendenhall or the Evaluator's ??

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They can take as many "measurables" and try to make the process as "scientific" as they'd like, but at the end of the day, the NFL Draft is still largely a crapshoot. That being said, I'm not about to dump on the FO for a bad draft like 2008 here and there when they've been one of the better drafting teams in the league overall for quite a few years now. It's also why I tend to really get annoyed with all the armchair GMs who refuse to keep things in perspective and completely blast the FO over a draft after the fact when they have the convenience of operating with 20/20 hindsight.

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Originally Posted by Nadroj 20

Still has to earn it. I don't care if some guy we never even heard of comes on and does better. Maybe Redman has an great TC? All I'm saying is he has to prove he deserves it before he gets it and like I said I hope that is the case. I do see a lot of potential from him.

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yes he does but he doesn't have to do anything spectacular to earn it. Dwyer is only 23, if the steelers thought he could be the starter of the future they wouldn't of taken a rb in the 2nd round and they wouldn't of tried to trade him. Maybe redman does have a great camp but he's still not going to start unless bell suffers an injury or doesn't show up at all. We needed to upgrade our running back position and that's exactly what we did and we are not going to stick that upgrade on the bench.

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Originally Posted by fansince'76

They can take as many "measurables" and try to make the process as "scientific" as they'd like, but at the end of the day, the NFL Draft is still largely a crapshoot. That being said, I'm not about to dump on the FO for a bad draft like 2008 here and there when they've been one of the better drafting teams in the league overall for quite a few years now. It's also why I tend to really get annoyed with all the armchair GMs who refuse to keep things in perspective and completely blast the FO over a draft after the fact when they have the convenience of operating with 20/20 hindsight.

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trust me I am not being Mendenhall specific on the " bust label " ( I was never a fan of him however ) but its any player that fails to meet expectations that gets the label attached to him when they end up being the player that the signs point to them being before they ever get drafted ....

Many players are over drafted with the expectation of being able to " fix" their problems once they become pro but that is a 50-50 proposition at best , I have always felt you are getting the player you draft considering they have played for the most part ( not all of them but most of them ) 10-15 years ...some things can be fixed while others can not ... soft is soft , toughness like speed is almost impossible to teach and having expectations to do so is IMO an unreasonable expectation ...


for me it is like going to the grocery store ( the draft ) and buying a bag of Apples and expecting to take them home and turn them into Oranges its not a reasonable expectation .....

we need to limit the term Busts for those who will be eventually enshrined in Canton

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

we need to limit the term Busts for those who will be eventually enshrined in Canton

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And Limas Sweed.

They both failed, but Mendenhall failed the most, especially with a first round grade. First and foremost, he failed to be honest with himself. As a consequence, he failed to be honest in the interview portion of his evaluation. Keep in mind that he was disciplined, twice, by coach Tomlin for not putting in the required effort to better himself both physically and mentally. Also keep in mind that, on paper, Kevin Colbert was lauded for having a very good draft in 2008, especially since, according to the experts and draft gurus, he hit a home run with the selections of Mendenhall and Limas Sweed. Looking back on the 2008 draft Colbert and the sports media whiffed, big time.

The following is the list of players in that draft:

1	23 (23)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Rashard Mendenhall	RB	Illinois
2	22 (53)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Limas Sweed	WR	Texas
3	25 (88)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Bruce Davis	OLB	UCLA
4	31 (130)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Tony Hills	T	Texas
5	21 (156)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Dennis Dixon	QB	Oregon
6	22 (188)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Mike Humpal	OLB	Iowa
6	28 (194)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/misc/blank_pixel.gif Ryan Mundy	S	West Virginia

As everyone can see, the 2008 draft turned out to be one of Kevin Colbert's worst drafts while with the Steelers. Not one player from that draft is still on the team.

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Originally Posted by Master Blaster

They both failed, but Mendenhall failed the most, especially with a first round grade. First and foremost, he failed to be honest with himself. As a consequence, he failed to be honest in the interview portion of his evaluation. Keep in mind that he was disciplined, twice, by coach Tomlin for not putting in the required effort to better himself both physically and mentally. Also keep in mind that, on paper, Kevin Colbert was lauded for having a very good draft in 2008, especially since, according to the experts and draft gurus, he hit a home run with the selections of Mendenhall and Limas Sweed. Looking back on the 2008 draft Colbert and the sports media whiffed, big time.

The following is the list of players in that draft:

1	23 (23)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Rashard Mendenhall	RB	Illinois
2	22 (53)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Limas Sweed	WR	Texas
3	25 (88)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Bruce Davis	OLB	UCLA
4	31 (130)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Tony Hills	T	Texas
5	21 (156)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Dennis Dixon	QB	Oregon
6	22 (188)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/...video_icon.gif Mike Humpal	OLB	Iowa
6	28 (194)	http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/images/misc/blank_pixel.gif Ryan Mundy	S	West Virginia

As everyone can see, the 2008 draft turned out to be one of Kevin Colbert's worst drafts while with the Steelers. Not one player from that draft is still on the team.

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holly shit , I seen the name and didnt believe it !

welcome bro I think you will like it here once you get everyone's vibe .....

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

holly shit , I seen the name and didnt believe it !

welcome bro I think you will like it here once you get everyone's vibe .....

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Exactly. There are those who can appreciate the two decent seasons Mendy gave us before losing his mind. Sweed holds a special place in Steeler Universe's heart. Disappointment only begins to describe how we feel. Had that draft worked to our favor we would have probably had another two Lobardis. As such, beyond that draft, the Steelers began the rebuilding process.

Think about what could have been had the first four picks worked out as regular starters. Not Pro-Bowlers, but every-game starters like a Larry Foote. There would have been stability, the team wouldn't have had the steep drop off in talent. We wouldn't be drafting for need as much. It's amazing how the shift of talent pivoted on that 2008 draft class. I'll bet Childi could write a good article articulating this.

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Originally Posted by Pristas

Exactly. There are those who can appreciate the two decent seasons Mendy gave us before losing his mind. Sweed holds a special place in Steeler Universe's heart. Disappointment only begins to describe how we feel. Had that draft worked to our favor we would have probably had another two Lobardis. As such, beyond that draft, the Steelers began the rebuilding process.

Think about what could have been had the first four picks worked out as regular starters. Not Pro-Bowlers, but every-game starters like a Larry Foote. There would have been stability, the team wouldn't have had the steep drop off in talent. We wouldn't be drafting for need as much. It's amazing how the shift of talent pivoted on that 2008 draft class. I'll bet Childi could write a good article articulating this.

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I mean, the "What if" game could be played in countless scenario. Unfortunately for us, we got bit really bad. I still defend it was a great draft. Mendenhall seemed like a no-brainer at the time and we were all elated that Sweed fell to us in the second when no WRs were taken in the first round and Donnie Avery was the first off the board. Hills had tremendous upside, too. So while the most important part, the on-field aspect, went down in flames, I can't really get mad at the FO. I loved it then just as much as they did.

But, it's been written countless times of how poor this team has drafted the last 5-6 years. We're labeled as a team with an eye for talent but that's about as accurate as saying we still play "Steeler football" of three yards and a cloud of dust. Colbert/Tomlin need to step it up in April. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to deny that.

SWEEEEEEEEEED!!!!

Not sure why so many assume Dwyer can not run in a ZBS as well as any other back on the roster , he has good vision and quick feet and the ZBS is pretty much what they did at GT when he was there with the undersized linemen they had , granted its not the same as what we will be running but its based on the same principles ...

that is not saying he will win the job but I believe it suits him as well as anyone else on the roster , and trust me I hope Bell wins the job but to say Dwyer is incapable or at a disadvantage based on the scheme I think is just fundamentally incorrect , if you say he wont win the job based on talent level you might have a better argument but until they put the pads on and compete we simply do not know for sure ....

Dwyer was pretty impressive as a collegiate too and that is all we have to base Bells ability on at this point

Dwyer http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...n-dwyer-1.html

Bell http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...on-bell-1.html

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

Not sure why so many assume Dwyer can not run in a ZBS as well as any other back on the roster , he has good vision and quick feet and the ZBS is pretty much what they did at GT when he was there with the undersized linemen they had , granted its not the same as what we will be running but its based on the same principles ...

that is not saying he will win the job but I believe it suits him as well as anyone else on the roster , and trust me I hope Bell wins the job but to say Dwyer is incapable or at a disadvantage based on the scheme I think is just fundamentally incorrect , if you say he wont win the job based on talent level you might have a better argument but until they put the pads on and compete we simply do not know for sure ....

Dwyer was pretty impressive as a collegiate too and that is all we have to base Bells ability on at this point

Dwyer http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...n-dwyer-1.html

Bell http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...on-bell-1.html

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Jonathan dwyer played the full back position at georgia tech and ran a lot of draws and triple option plays. Also the steelers obviously don't think hes the guy for the scheme because they drafted bell who ran a true zone blocking scheme is a better pass protector, pass catcher, and better tackle breaker.

What steeldawg said.

Check out this highlight video of Dwyers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87oQfYptdJM

I only watched the first half but it's all option offense. Triple option means you're getting midline and veer. Lot of backside guard pulling, too. Don't see any inside/outside zone.

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Originally Posted by steeldawg

Jonathan dwyer played the full back position at georgia tech and ran a lot of draws and triple option plays. Also the steelers obviously don't think hes the guy for the scheme because they drafted bell who ran a true zone blocking scheme is a better pass protector, pass catcher, and better tackle breaker.

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my bullshit detector just went off .......

the bold is without question bullshit .....

while I am a Bell fan he has yet to accomplish anything at this level all the while Dwyer has proven to be one of the leagues BEST pass protectors at the RB pos and it is documented ....

as for pass catchers , again I call bullshit neither have caught enough balls to be considered a premier receiving threat , Granted Bell had more catches as a collegiate but GT barely threw the ball so apples to oranges comparison but a stat you should be looking at is Bell averaged 6.8 YPCatch at MS , Dwyer on the flip side averaged 17.5 YPCatch , but again they have less than 100 college career catches combined so hardly a solid sample ....


Dwyer also had more TDs with nearly 200 less touches .....

again I am a fan of Bell but for gods sakes lets not anoint him as the next coming until he proves worthy of such anointing ....... I expect him to win the starting job but I do not think it will be by a landslide

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

my bullshit detector just went off .......

the bold is without question bullshit .....

while I am a Bell fan he has yet to accomplish anything at this level all the while Dwyer has proven to be one of the leagues BEST pass protectors at the RB pos and it is documented ....

as for pass catchers , again I call bullshit neither have caught enough balls to be considered a premier receiving threat , Granted Bell had more catches as a collegiate but GT barely threw the ball so apples to oranges comparison but a stat you should be looking at is Bell averaged 6.8 YPCatch at MS , Dwyer on the flip side averaged 17.5 YPCatch , but again they have less than 100 college career catches combined so hardly a solid sample ....


Dwyer also had more TDs with nearly 200 less touches .....

again I am a fan of Bell but for gods sakes lets not anoint him as the next coming until he proves worthy of such anointing ....... I expect him to win the starting job but I do not think it will be by a landslide

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right now hes a better blocker but you where comparing them coming out of college and two of bells attractive traits was his ability to catch and pass protect, so according to your comparison of them coming out of college bell is a better pass protector better at catching the ball and he ran the zone blocking scheme. And yes it will be a landslide and dwyer will be lucky if hes still on the team at the end of camp.

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Originally Posted by steeldawg

right now hes a better blocker but you where comparing them coming out of college and two of bells attractive traits was his ability to catch and pass protect, so according to your comparison of them coming out of college bell is a better pass protector better at catching the ball and he ran the zone blocking scheme. And yes it will be a landslide and dwyer will be lucky if hes still on the team at the end of camp.

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no I said that is all we have to base Bell on and then attached a link to both of their collegiate stats to show how similar they really are ... you said Bell was a better blocker , I called BS because Dwyer is one of the best in the NFL at blocking ....

but hey why let the facts get in the way of a good argument