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^ This. If they can play through Ryan Shazier's horrifying injury and not let *that* keep them from doing what has to be done, what makes people think that all of this media "tweener drama" is somehow distracting? Oh, I remember: because the media always says it is. ;)Quote:
I mean the list goes on and on. But those aren't "distractions". But dumb crap people say to reporters is. Makes no sense.
There is no such thing as a loose locker room or a tight locker room. There are just locker rooms. Some are full of professionals who go about their day and do their jobs. Others are tilted towards guys that do not know how to be a pro.Quote:
Originally Posted by polamalubeast
Every locker room has strife, drama, crimes, and social media nonsense. Just like any workplace does. People are people. Whether they play NFL football or work at Walmart. Put a group of people together and a fairly predictable series of things will happen.
I mean if military units in a combat zone can have "drama" -- and there are stories that they have and still do -- where your very life depends on being alert, focused, and prepared, why would we think an NFL team would be any different?
American sports, and the football in particular, has sold everyone a pretty slick package of myth. The story goes that football molds individuals into disciplined highly focused supremely talented players. That are able to put everything aside and doggedly pursue team goals even at the sacrifice of individual achievements. Players live, sleep, eat, and breathe "the game" or "the sport" and flourish in the crucible of competition and the weekly challenge of measuring yourself against the best in the game. The only people who work harder than the players are the almost anonymous coaches who break down tape and devise elaborate and clever stratagems to stop the sleep-deprived grinders that coach the other team. When not playing the game they all passionately love and have devoted their lives to, players and coaches briefly relax and then begin preparing for the next season with singular focus and an unrelenting drive fueled by their unyielding desire to win. But only as a team.
Does that sound realistic? Does that sound like ANY group of 90-200 people you have ever heard of? Or does that sound like something that was cobbled together in a marketing meeting from half remembered high school football days, military service, and just general rah-rah nonsense to sell the game to an eager public?
All of these "can't be clairvoyant" excuses make sense when there are isolated incidents. But there is a pattern. If there was a tone of zero tolerance for this douche-baggery there wouldn't be a continuation of it. I suppose we will agree to disagree on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Personally, I think Tomlin is a class person but only an average coach who at this point is not getting enough out of the talent at his disposal. He has 3 playoff wins since 2010. I'd very much like to see him succeed.
Who is more zero tolerance than New England? And they are team drama.
Coughlin and Marrone are seemingly big no drama guys. Jax talks more than any team since the height of the recent Seahawks run if succes. So far they've backed it up. Funny no one notices until the narrative becomes something to do with underachieving. Also, what happens when all those young guys on cheap contracts need to get paid? Anyone honestly believe Rsmday is going to negotiate quietly?
It appears as a pattern for the Steelers because they are promenint team in the middle of a 2 decade run of almost annual success. Additionally they've created a narrative that they are model franchise who is somehow exempt from the trials and tribulations that other less competent organizations experience.
And that just isn't true. If we all consumed every single Tweet, blog post, rumor, and speculation about any other franchise like we do the Steelers what would we conclude? Based on a quick and likely biased survey, my position is that ALL other NFL teams would be revealed to have similar episodes and "drama". We, lunatic Steelers fans, don't see it because we arent looking.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. .
If Coughlin would be HC with the steelers, no doubt the steelers would have more discipline off the field!
I do not think Coughlin would have tolerated Martavis Bryant's comments on JuJu after his draft or during the season last year!
Perhaps, but quoting it that way throws it a bit out of context. The Steelers lost in 2011 because they were on the final breath of a SB roster. The next two years were salary cap hell years and revising the roster with young players to replace the old ones the front office had overextended with the hope of one more SB run. That puts us into 2014. Since then, We're 3-4 in the playoffs, but two of those losses were without our starting RB and one of them was without our starting RB and WR, and we still almost beat the Broncos in that game.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
Like how he put the clamp down on Burress?Quote:
Originally Posted by polamalubeast
We're never going to agree on this. But I certainly enjoy debating it with you!
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I know I'm being an ass about this. But check this out
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...llins-gauntlet
How many were aware of this? I certainly wasn't because I frankly don't care about either team.
But clearly both locker rooms are now poisoning their teams with distractions and an out of control locker room culture. Don't know why they're even botheing to play out the season.
Should the Steers put in a waiver claim on Dak or Collins? I mean those guys are as good as cut right? Surely no chance tougher coaches tolearte players just lobbing around bulletin board material.
No one in the NFL has produced more locker room drama the past couple years than the Steelers. I mean, last year in particular, seemed there was a story EVERY SINGLE WEEK with this team. Did the team go one week without making headlines for the wrong reason? I don't think they did.
I'm not denying that. Simply saying that EVERY team has something every week. If it's not there, team focused media will put everything under a microscope until they find something.Quote:
Originally Posted by st33lersguy
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Seriously, it's possible to explain away so much that it becomes denial that there is even a problem. That's step #1 lol. Admit you have a problem. We do indeed disagree and I also respect your points individually, but there's too much smoke for me to keep denying there's fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
- - - Updated - - -
However you want to look at it, there's 3 playoff wins since they went to the Super Bowl in 2010.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craic
And chances are they'd still wind up with a largely mediocre product on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by polamalubeast
The (largely false, IMO) narrative of Coughlin being this great HC due to two extremely fluky SB wins is a really tired one. Let's have another look at Coughlin's tenure as HC with the Giants:
2004: 6-10
2005: 11-5
2006: 8-8
2007: 10-6
2008: 12-4
2009: 8-8
2010: 10-6
2011: 9-7
2012: 9-7
2013: 7-9
2014: 6-10
2015: 6-10
I'm sorry, but the Steelers' fanbase absolutely would NOT tolerate only four 10+ win seasons and only six seasons above .500 out of twelve, two lightning-in-a-bottle, stars-in-perfect-alignment SB wins or not. Especially in a division that is generally extremely competitive and where it more often than not takes 11 wins or more just to secure a wildcard berth.
Hell, people were completely losing their shit and practically jumping out of high windows after the Steelers had back-to-back 8-8 seasons in '12 and '13.
I mean, I think more than Jerry Reese(their GM during most of the Coughlin tenure) was the problem with the Giants, especially in the last few years...The talent between the steelers and the giants were not comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by fansince'76
The first 8 years of Coughlin with the Giants were comparable to Bill Parcells in terms of win/loss record and Super Bowl win.
Fair enough. But what I'm saying is do you follow any of the 31 other teams as closely? If the answer is "yes" then we would have a good comparison for levels of drama. But I'm going to guess the answer is "no". Therefore we have little basis for comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
The conclusion that the Steelers are too dramatic appears to come from two places. Fans feelings regarding player actions when compared to the hazy memories of yesteryear. The second is national media talking heads advancing the narrative. So, ask yourself what does a guy like Cowherd know about the Steelers? How many games has he even watched? Can he name more than 5 players on the team? Can he identify two key team strengths and two weaknesses? Or does he just need any easy narrative to fill time and drive debate? Remember Cowherd and many others that comment on the NFL are not journalists. He was and still is a sports radio host who knows one good trick - say something controversial and exxagerate it as much as you can to make people call in.
I'm a general fan - I'd say much more than many on here. To that end, I stay up on other teams in the news. Certainly, there is more exposure for a handful of teams (Steelers, Patriots, Cowboys, Giants, Packers, Seahawks, etc.). Winning cures all that ails. Drama + winning = Yipee! Drama + playoff exits = Questions??? That may not be fair, but it's reality. Even Steelers' players are speaking out on all the drama (last year's playoff promises, James Harrison, Bell's holdout, etc.). Are the players inside the locker room also blowing it out of proportion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Right. But we are talking past each other. I want to leave aside the issue of what the impact of "drama" is on a team. That is not my focus. Because the debate has shifted on this thread and the board in general as to what level of drama the Steelers are experiencing. There is a hypothesis that they experience far more than other NFL teams. I completely reject that idea. I propose instead the idea that fans of each individual team are so focused on that team and how it compares to some idealized version of a team that their comparisons lose context and focus. Additionally, all NFL teams experience over the course of a season or so, equivalent levels of drama.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
Now, we can discuss the impact of drama as kind of a separate issue. In other words it is a two stage thing for me. Step One - Assess whether the Steelers experience significantly more or less drama than the other NFL teams. Step Two - Assess how well the Steelers deal with drama compared to the other NFL teams.
I am willing to argue very strongly that the Steelers experience an equivalent level of drama as any other NFL team. Moving to the impact of that drama, well that becomes far far harder to asses. What are the assessment tools? Win lose record? Some vague sense of the impact? Number of blog posts about the issues? Player quotes from immediately after a season-ending lose? All of these are possible assessment tools, but there seems to be no agreed to standard. Likely because the whole thing is totally intangible and impossible to measure.
We probably are talking past a bit. Your level of detail often includes multiple points and I'm more of a one point at a time poster. That is likely the breakdown. As soon as you make a point I want to respond, but then you make 2-4 other points. So I take that on me :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
My point is that if the players are talking about it then there is too much drama! The OL going off on Bell was not the media's fault. Now whether it is always more than other teams, I cannot say empirically. Perhaps there should be a weekly Power Drama Ranking. (I would bet you $100 that the Steelers would come in #1 - regardless of who did the voting.)
You do an excellent job of dispelling perception - but at the end of the day, perception is still reality (in spite of your valiant efforts) :).
You raise great points. And I think that it all about how each of us reacts to the events and statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
For instance, what else are the players going to talk about? Their dogs? What they have been binging on Netflix? Even if we take the fairly obvious answer that they should fall back on some old locker room team sports cliches - that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Assume Pouncey and Foster etc closed ranks and said "We support our team mate." Would we all just rejoice and assume that Bell not coming in wasn't a distraction? I mean that just doesn't seem to be a realistic assumption. So some human beings vented some anger at a stressful workplace issue. I mean if cameras and reporters came to my workplace and asked me a series of questions about how I felt after each day, I shudder to think about what I would say sometimes. My point? Really really straightforward -- despite what the players could or should have said regarding Bell there is NO version of this where the situation isn't on their minds. And so what?
Rules to be posted on locker room wall:
1. No threatening physical violence on reporters.
2. No throwing teammates under the bus to the media.
3. No live-streaming during coach’s speech.
4. No sleeping/snoring during position meetings.
Let’s start with those!
Lol. PerfectQuote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
Fixed! :chuckle:Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
All 32 did. WE only read, hear, and pay attention to the Steelers stories. The national talking heads put more emphasis on the teams that have the bigger fan bases. More fans equals more clicks. This stuff just bothers some fans more than others. You seem to really hate these things where I can ignore them. I only pay attention to the games. The rest is just fluff to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by st33lersguy
Think about it. Even on this forum we have threads dedicated to twitter feeds and social media stuff. It is our world now.
DS,Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
I disagree on that point. It was the media going around sticking mics in their faces and asking them a constant barrage of Lev Bell questions. "How does it make you feel" "What will you say to him when he shows up" "BlahBlah said Blah Blah about Lev Bell. Do you agree", etc. They were sh^t-stirring.
Funny how every former player disagrees with you. Those are guys who've been there.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSlash27
"Every former player"? Not sure I understand what you mean by this. You personally asked everyone who has ever played football whether the O Line going off on Bell was the media's fault or not? Surely this is not what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
And every player has been in a media "controversy" where a teammate held out? Well, I *know* that's not true. So whoever you're talking about, they haven't been there.
You mean the former players who are paid to offer opinions on the NFL. The ones in the media? Surely they had no interest in helping to drive the controversy into another news cycle. Almost certainly the quotes from players not in the media where not selectively pulled. No way media folks called around until they found guys who said what they wanted to fit into their narrative. Not a chance. Stories are never manipulated for ratings and extra days of attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
Look, the offensive lines ability to recognize stunts and pressures will have a far greater impact on the won loss record of the Steelers than whatever this stuff with Bell turns out to be. But here is the thing that many refuse to recognize. The NFL media is a lowest common denominator business. Most of the fans of the league can not and do not want to understand how the game is actually played and the tactics and techniques needed to win football games. They have no patience for that granular level of analysis and detail. It requires them to think. BUT — OMG did you hear what they said about Bell? What disarray and dysfunction. That people can handle. So that is what we get force fed.
That is probably why we don't get in depth analysis shows anymore too. Which sucks because I used to really love NFL Matchup that had Jaws, and Merril Hoge hosting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
I'm assuming that DS wouldn't offer up such an obviously flawed argument.Quote:
You mean the former players who are paid to offer opinions on the NFL. The ones in the media?
Yup. Those were great. Now fans just figure that whatever coach talks the toughest and whatever team has the guys with the best daily fantasy points forecast will win. As a result all the talk is driven towards who is and isn't "elite" and what NFL team is "distracted" or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by 43Hitman
Meanwhile, if you search things out...they are out there...but not easy to find...some people are breaking down why teams are or are not winning football games. Oddly enough, they rarely mention fantasy points scored, locker-room distractions, cheerleader coaches, or any of the stuff spewed on ESPN, NFL Network, PFT, or Twitter.
Wish I could figure out if there was a connection there....
If Tomlin was let go this instant and Coughlin (Jags Era) came into this team tomorrow, the team would implode.Quote:
Originally Posted by polamalubeast