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Absolutely no surprise. In the end, this is a business, and under Goodell, Revenue has almost tripled over the last 16 years from 6.54 billion in 2006 to 18 billion in 2022. He also successfully navigated two CBA agreements without any interruptions to football games, was at the helm when a rookie salary cap was instituted, and has a current CBA agreement in place until 2030. Like him or hate him, he has been fantastic for the NFL bottom line.
I haven't always been a fan of Goodell but at least he's not awful like Adam Silver in the NBA!....The NBA has been a true circus since he is the commissioner in this league!....Goodell has been better in the last few years tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Craic
Say what you want about whether it's Goodell who's responsible, or the owners, or the lawyers, or the media, or fantasy football, or "changing public perception" aka trying to appease the most vocal complainers who will never be happy - but the game and the league that exist in 2023 are both a rule-crazy, frustrating mess compared to what existed in 2006 when he took over the commissioner job. He has been paid hundreds of millions of dollars to oversee, or at least be complicit in, the systematic crapification of the game we knew.Quote:
Originally Posted by polamalubeast
Great, franchise values are way up and every TV deal is bigger than the last. We've got a great new fan base of millennials heads-down on their smartphones and people like my cousin Christine who hardly know the rules but love the party atmosphere of whatever Buffalo Wild Wings-alike bar is showing the game, and who regularly purchase team jerseys based on which player they think has a "cute butt."
The state of football in 2023.
But you still watch it and talk about it all year round…so it can’t be that bad…Quote:
Originally Posted by steelreserve
Very clever. How's that working out for you, being clever?Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
Wait....hold on....are you saying that the owners of NFL franchises only care about their bottom line?
Well....shoot....I gotta go re-think some stuff. I mean this is just really hard to wrap my head around...
I think he does pretty good with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelreserve
I know, right? Like, he said that if you pay attention to something, you are not allowed to think that it's gotten worse. He completely boxed me in. I don't know how it's possible to even compete with that level of clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
LOL... exactly. The game has regressed under him. The owners don't give two shits. The rules are damn near incomprehensible now. The game of football isn't allowed to be played anymore. Every rule is 90% in favor of the offense. Defense isn't allowed to play anyomore. The owners don't care at all if they win or lose.... just show me the money, Jerry!Quote:
Originally Posted by steelreserve
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So do you.... and it is that bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
It all depends on your POV.
I’ve always respected and admired the achievements of other eras and tried to learn the history of the game.
But some of that stuff is hard to watch. Plays are basic. Guys are smaller and slower.
I’m not really keen on going back to the early 1990s or so. Much less tye 1970s.
The rules had to change. Game got too fast.
The NFL has basically been a money printing machine on autopilot for decades now. Thank Rozelle for that, not Goodell.
The last two CBA agreements have been more a result of the owners having all the leverage and the NFLPA ultimately caving than anything else. Outside of the Steelers and the Packers, league ownership is generally comprised of a bunch of multi-billionaires who all have at least a half-dozen other irons in the fire and their teams are not much more than a hobby and something to brag about to their uber-wealthy friends as well as a convenient tax write-off. A protracted strike wouldn't hurt them in the least, but it would hurt the players plenty.
On a personal side note, I didn't watch one second of the playoffs or the Super Bowl this year. Apart from the Steelers, I simply do not give a shit as far as the NFL is concerned anymore, at least partly due to the reasons steelreserve highlighted.
For me, the NFL jumped the shark when it began catering more to the fantasy football crowd and the "casual fans" than the people who actually gave a damn what was happening on the field and that happened on Goodell's watch.
Sure, the NFL is raking in more cash than ever – bully for them. But that doesn't mean the product on the field has improved. American Idol is either at or near the top of the Nielsen ratings year in and year out as well, but that doesn't make it quality TV programming. Same concept.
IMHO, the league has continued to flourish in spite of Goodell, not because of him.
:applaudit: Well said FS76Quote:
Originally Posted by fansince'76
You guys aren’t wrong but Goodell isn’t employed to give two turds about fan experience.
He’s made the owners stacks of cash.
As was well said above, the days of a core community of owners that were interested in growing the game and sticking to a vision of the product are well and truly dead. Quite literally in some cases.
Now it’s the third generation of some football families but mostly gazillionaires whose primary motivation is to own one of the most exclusive status symbols on the planet.
Any idiot can buy a soccer team. No one cares about baseball or hockey. But football? Those are the rarest and most expensive sports franchises on the planet.
And Goodell makes them rarer and more expensive every year. And, yeah, a ton of that is that Rozelle and other earlier figures had the foresight to tie the NFL to TV. It is the only made for TV sport.
Reality television was basically invented by the NFL. It is the only sport that grew up on TV. As a result, it’s rule changes and “thumb on the scale” moments are always going to be tied to what makes a more “entertaining” TV product.
I mean the league has been grappling with instant replay since the 1980’s. The NBA just started it in the 2000’s.
The other way to tell it’s a reality TV focused enterprise is what other sport is it truly possible to finish last and then 1-3 years later be one of the best teams in the league? I’d argue basically none. The NFL has created a structure that allows real hope to be sold by the truckload to every fan base every year. That’s just pure commercial genius.
You will notice that none of this touches on the on field product. That’s all secondary or tertiary. Enough someones will always watch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fansince'76
I agree with what you are saying. Goodell took over a hypertrain and has ridden that train to its current status while avoiding derailment.
I still love the game and watch football, but I feel differently about it than I did years ago. A large part of that is because of the way the game is promoted. The NFL has dumbed down the way we see and discuss football in far too many ways.
I am a football guy. I understand the game and like to hear it discussed in a technical way. With the focus of football being turned toward the fantasy aspects and the all-on assault by the gambling interests in the game....I find it harder and harder to find real, serious football content where the X's and O's are discussed and dissected at length. To see all the media content that is football related be mostly garbage is excruciating to me. The NFL wants as many people as possible to talk about football and care about the idea of football, but less and less people seem to understand what they claim to be so passionate about.
Listening to people talk about football yet having no idea what they're talking about is getting increasingly annoying and frustrating. You have people arguing with you about things related to the sport and speaking in absolutes, when they don't even understand how the game works. I deal with people basically telling me I'm an idiot pertaining to something I said about the sport of football, and they couldn't even explain a simple schematic aspect of the game if their life depended on it because they have no knowledge of it or simply don't know how the game works. I know this is supposed to be fun, and for the most part it is, but the dumbed down version of today's fans along with the overreaching rules of the game itself have continued to make the product harder to watch. The worst part is that they have added so many rules to the game that simply can't be officiated properly or fairly, that it calls into question the validity of the sport as it pertains to how easily a game can be manipulated or controlled by officials to get desired outcomes. They are walking closer and closer to a line that pushes away the hardcore football fans from the game.
Also, the way the game has been politicized to push political causes is nauseating. I know they do many good things as well, and there is a ton of charity stuff that is wonderful, but there is a veil of bullshit and hypocrisy that is hard to overlook at times.
I still love it. Sometimes I wish I didn't. I just don't enjoy the overall experience as much as I once did.
Sometimes it works out well. Other times, not clever enough. But if I don’t like something I just don’t watch it or listen or talk about it. It’s not a hard concept for most to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelreserve
Cause that’s exactly what I said…lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelreserve
Don’t think I claimed otherwise…still not bad enough that I don’t watch or talk about it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by silver & black
Much of the ‘debate’ over rules involve the player safety aspect rules. How you can tackle and what a PI is exactly seem to be more subjective that actual hard rules. If there is a rule that players can’t initiate contact with the crown of the helmet, or in an aggressive launching motion to certain body areas, then those rules should be enforced across the board with every player. Otherwise they are frustrating ‘NBA’ type rules.
Some of the player safety rules are truly to protect players. Some are to protect the product only. All the QB safety rules are a perfect example of that.
The Mouse owns the major mouth when it comes to sports media and announcing. The Mouse only cares about the money not the product. If the Mouse wants an issue brought to the front, or squashed, it is so done. I’m not against the Mouse, I just understand what motivates the Mouse.
I hear what you are saying. You're not wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by pczach
About 4 or 5 years ago, I stopped watching any NFL TV coverage aside from actual games. I stopped listening to any talk radio about the league. I dropped major "network" NFL websites (ESPN/SI/NFL.com, etc.) from my reading rotation.
Replaced it with podcasts, random blogs, and a paywall subscription to the Athletic.
My engagement with the sport and my enjoyment of it rebounded greatly. Cutting ESPN and NFL network out just can not be over-stated as a positive experience. I miss almost nothing of note and I do not have to suffer through tons of inane chatter to find out who the Steelers drafted or whatever. Plus, I can no wall off my fantasy news from my actual football content.
Of course, your individual mileage may vary. I suspect that some of the podcasts and blog sites I enjoy may not be for everybody. My detailed schematic knowledge of the game is not at a level where I can get bored by some of the analysis I hear. I still learn stuff -- or at least think I do.
The biggest problem with the rules is not the actual rules. They are fine. Not great but workable. The biggest problem is that you have a massive spectrum on what the rules look like based on what crew is calling a game. And that is a "fixable" problem if the NFL actually cared enough to invest in training, compensation, and whatever for their officials. But like every major sport, they cheap out on that and the results vary widely.
For the politicization stuff...if you turn off the above general outlets for your content....that stuff justs drifts away...personally, I find it easy to ignore. But...I also skip all the commercials during game broadcasts as well...so I bet that keeps my blood pressure down...
I know this is going to be an unpopular post but here it goes.
Goodell is a major reason why the league is where it is at, good and bad. Goodell changed the NFL from focusing on a game-day experience to being a 365-day experience. Think about that. There are only 17 games a year plus playoffs, yet fans (and I mean casual fans) are invested 365. And, Goodell had to navigate through at least two different league crisis that could have derailed the sport. The first one was player-safety and the lawsuits. Is the league safer for players? Who knows. But, and here's the most important thing so many people forget, it is perceived as being safer. The league looks like it is doing everything it can to protect players. Sure, there are a few individual teams that tarnish that, like Miami this year. But Goodell has successfully navigated waters that included lawsuits from over three thousand players; wall-to-wall negative press; and spawned a major motion picture that directly accused the NFL of coverups, retribution, and even political corruption.
He also successfully navigated a a racial crisis. I know, you may not agree. But there's a difference between doing it in a way we think is good or right on the one hand and making sure the league survives on the other. Instead, he drops $250 million into social justice over a ten year period. Let's think about that for a second. That's 25 million a year, or 1/10th of one percent of league revenue. And the league is being lauded for it. I don't care if you are for or against social justice, if you agree or disagree with spending any money on it. The point I am making is that Goodell took a national divisive issue that was driven directly out of the NFL, and with less than .0015 percent of earned money, he was able to sell the league as caring about the issue while not losing enough people on the other side to matter (again, check the bottom line, revenue continues to increase).
Don't confuse your dislike of the current game with Goodell's business and financial leadership. They are two very different things. The NFL is a business, and a business will sell the cheapest product for the most amount of money possible. It's like using a tool. Sure, you can make and sell a circular saw for $400 and have it be a fantastic product, an uncorded worm-drive saw with little competition. Or, you can be SKIL or Craftsman and sell a saw that is far, FAR less quality for a quarter of the price and make a ton more money. Anyone condemning the NFL for being SKIL or Craftsman rather than Milwaukie or Flex is simply ignoring business and capitalism. Will purists like it? Of course not. But show me a product that purists of that product still like after 50 years. Every business chases money.
[QUOTE=pczach;827878]I agree with what you are saying. Goodell took over a hypertrain and has ridden that train to its current status while avoiding derailment.
I still love the game and watch football, but I feel differently about it than I did years ago. A large part of that is because of the way the game is promoted. The NFL has dumbed down the way we see and discuss football in far too many ways.
I am a football guy. I understand the game and like to hear it discussed in a technical way. With the focus of football being turned toward the fantasy aspects and the all-on assault by the gambling interests in the game....I find it harder and harder to find real, serious football content where the X's and O's are discussed and dissected at length. To see all the media content that is football related be mostly garbage is excruciating to me. The NFL wants as many people as possible to talk about football and care about the idea of football, but less and less people seem to understand what they claim to be so passionate about.
Listening to people talk about football yet having no idea what they're talking about is getting increasingly annoying and frustrating. You have people arguing with you about things related to the sport and speaking in absolutes, when they don't even understand how the game works. I deal with people basically telling me I'm an idiot pertaining to something I said about the sport of football, and they couldn't even explain a simple schematic aspect of the game if their life depended on it because they have no knowledge of it or simply don't know how the game works. I know this is supposed to be fun, and for the most part it is, but the dumbed down version of today's fans along with the overreaching rules of the game itself have continued to make the product harder to watch. The worst part is that they have added so many rules to the game that simply can't be officiated properly or fairly, that it calls into question the validity of the sport as it pertains to how easily a game can be manipulated or controlled by officials to get desired outcomes. They are walking closer and closer to a line that pushes away the hardcore football fans from the game.
Also, the way the game has been politicized to push political causes is nauseating. I know they do many good things as well, and there is a ton of charity stuff that is wonderful, but there is a veil of bullshit and hypocrisy that is hard to overlook at times.
I still love it. Sometimes I wish I didn't. I just don't enjoy the overall experience as much as I once did.[/QUOT
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:
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Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
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Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
It's the lack of real informational content that bothers me. If you watch ESPN, you get some real good breakdowns from Dan Orlovsky or Ryan Clark and Marcus Spears. You get some decent information about organizational moves and rumors, but there just isn't a ton of useful or technical information. Even when some guys comment, there are times when I listen to them and think they aren't watching the same games I am. I think much of this stuff is given to them on a sheet of paper or written for them on an iPad. They say a lot of stuff but I don't necessarily think they can possibly be on top of every market or every team with all the inside info they pretend to have.
NFL Network has much more football content of course. But still, watching shows like Good Morning Football is a complete and utter joke. There is almost ZERO real football discussed. Only generalities and some useful info from insiders about breaking news, trades, league news, etc... The cater to the social media fluff crowd that dominates the younger generations currently. It is mostly unwatchable. On the bright side their draft stuff is the best thing going from an informational standpoint because of the Combine and pre draft content. I think the pre-draft breakdowns and evaluating players is my savior. It may be the most enjoyable part of the game for me. Even at the pro level, evaluating what players are doing on the field and their performances based on the schemes they are playing in, and how that involves the coaching staff and how they use that talent is kind of the game inside the game.
The rules thing isn't going away. They just really need to solve the game-deciding penalties on phantom calls involving tackling quarterbacks or unnecessary roughness calls where it is impossible to be flying at another human at high speed that is moving and ducking their head....and not make contact in the prohibited areas. In other words, when natural movements within the game itself make it impossible to always play within the rules, the rules are flawed. The officiating crews matter with interpretation of rules but the speed of the game makes it impossible to have the reaction times to always operate within the rules as written and enforced.
You are correct that watching less of the fluff stuff helps. I actively avoid it when I can. Even the NFL pre-game broadcasts don't really delve into X's and O's stuff too much. You have to look online for breakdowns with video and commentary to get the deeper dive into the meat of what football really is. Even then, not everyone that comments knows what they are looking at. But at least they're looking and trying to break it down and explain some things about the game that hopefully help other understand things better.
I'm not claiming to be an expert. I don't work for an NFL team breaking down film all day. I don't expect anyone else to be either. I guess it's a little more about people having self-awareness. You know the types of people I'm talking about. They have strong takes on everything but have little to no knowledge of the game. They have outlandish theories with no basis in fact, but they regurgitate their nonsense everywhere over and over again and call everyone else fools for not jumping on the lunatic bandwagon.
You and I have discussions about football all the time. I say things you disagree with or you say things that I disagree with, but we give logical, reasoned responses to each other trying to explain our rationale. I enjoy sharing different perspectives with you and many people here or out there in the world. The problem is that the people that seem to know the least are the ones talking the most and the loudest. It is not an enjoyable experience when dealing with that, and I'm afraid it's getting more prevalent.
Politics just annoy me in general. I've stated it here before. I come to places like this and watch football to get away from the bullshit in life. It is my escape. I don't want to be told what to think about anything. I just want to enjoy the game. I already actively avoid as much of this in my daily personal life as possible. I sure as shit don't want it during a football game.
Well thanks for sending me online to look at cordless saws. Now I want a saw I can’t afford and don’t technically need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craic
I think your post made some really good points. And reminds us all that this is a business first.
Good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craic
And he did all that with a small penis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craic
Actually, a really good question is how much influence Goodell had on any of the major changes, both good and bad.
Many people give him a pass for the rule changes, the player safety changes, the drug policy, the player conduct policy, etc., saying he just does what the owners tell him. Ok, well then how much of the rest of it is he responsible for either? Is Goodell the primary negotiator in the labor agreements, or is it the owners and their lawyers? (I'm actually pretty sure it's the latter, based on what you usually hear about the negotiations.) Is Goodell personally negotiating the TV contracts, or is there a media person and another bunch of lawyers who do that? Is he the one driving the licensing deals and fantasy sports tie-ins, or is there a sales executive who does that? Is he leading the charitable initiatives, or is there a public relations guy handling it? Was Goodell personally settling all the lawsuits from ESPN Concussion Sunday, or was it a pack of attorneys, and he just signed off on it because the owners said it was ok to sign off on it?
How much of the expanded attention is even the league's doing, and how much of it was the media taking it upon themselves to do it, just expanding their own audience and maximizing their own revenue? Was it even Goodell's idea to give $250 million to social justice, or someone else's? (spoiler: probably someone else's.)
Now on the one hand, it's hard to imagine the owners would be paying someone in the neighborhood of $50 million a year just as a mouthpiece for their decisions, and to be the ape in a suit who takes the blame for most of the mishaps. On the other hand, an ape in a suit is what he often looks like.
In almost every major "crisis," real or imagined, that the league has been confronted with, what appears to happen is that Goodell makes a knee-jerk reaction that turns out to be the wrong one, then mashes buttons until a PR firm steps in and tells him what to say. I have a hard time imagining that this person is some business mastermind and impresario extraordinare, who has singlehandedly figured out how to captivate an audience of billions.
From my own personal perspective, most of this probably would have taken place with or without Roger Goodell, and it's highly likely someone else could have done just as well without fucking up the game so much. So in my book, he is just a lousy commissioner with no penis.
Your post is utter nonsense without any logic. You can't assert he has a small penis without proof, and then conclude he has no penis without any intervening facts. In fact, most of what you write seems to argue that he is a man that gets taller with Viagra, which would be opposite your opening and closing statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelreserve
:chuckle:
The Goodell Penis Paradox?Quote:
Originally Posted by Craic
Maybe his man parts are at the event horizon of a black hole? Like some bizarre comic book villain.
And how exactly do you know this?Quote:
Originally Posted by steelreserve
I heard it was leaked from Tom Brady's onlyfans in like 2019.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
i hate roger goodell
I kind of like him. I wouldn't mind watching a game with him down in his man cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckHodges