TJ and Bud

I know that we don’t have the money to keep both, and it saddens me. Not necessarily because of their play (which is phenomenal), but because the two of them seem like legit friends.

No matter which one gets a sack/makes a big play, the other one finds the first... and they do this handshake dance. It’s all smiles & fun. Likewise, I’ve seen where they crash interviews together... which is hilarious. They seem to be really close.

I know that Harrison & Keisel were close like that, as well... and I’d like to see the TJ & Bud thing continue to grow for the next six or seven seasons.

I’m of the belief that they keep them both. Somehow. And yeah what you describe is cool to watch.

And that's what sucks about salary caps. Yes, I understand it prevents the "rich" teams from buying players but it stinks. I wish they built a way into the CBA that counted salary cap pay to your own draft picks at a different salary percentage vs free agents.

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Originally Posted by EzraTank

And that's what sucks about salary caps. Yes, I understand it prevents the "rich" teams from buying players but it stinks. I wish they built a way into the CBA that counted salary cap pay to your own draft picks at a different salary percentage vs free agents.

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That's actually a really good idea. Would put a premium on drafting well and hamper teams from just trying to buy the best players and there wouldn't be alot of really good players on the market anyhow

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by EzraTank

And that's what sucks about salary caps. Yes, I understand it prevents the "rich" teams from buying players but it stinks. I wish they built a way into the CBA that counted salary cap pay to your own draft picks at a different salary percentage vs free agents.

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Send this in to the NFL and NFLPA.

I dont think the Steelers can afford all their free agents and cant afford to pay Dupree like a top 10 pass rusher, while Watt is a DPOY candidate that will need to be paid as such.

IMO, Alex Highsmith is the future at OLB opposite Watt. Another OLB gets drafted in 2021, or a veteran on a cap friendly deal (like Arthur Moats was) gets signed as the #3 OLB. Sorry to squash all the Skipper and Olakwerty optimism out there.

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

I dont think the Steelers can afford all their free agents and cant afford to pay Dupree like a top 10 pass rusher, while Watt is a DPOY candidate that will need to be paid as such.

IMO, Alex Highsmith is the future at OLB opposite Watt. Another OLB gets drafted in 2021, or a veteran on a cap friendly deal (like Arthur Moats was) gets signed as the #3 OLB. Sorry to squash all the Skipper and Olakwerty optimism out there.

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I thought one of those two might have a role, but the fact that Highsmith has already relegated each of those guys to "special teams roleplayer" tells me all I need to know about their long-term future with the team.

Dupree will be part of a massive roster purge this off-season. It is a bit sad to see because I do strongly agree that Watt and Dupree seem to genuinely enjoy being team-mates.

Tupac Skipper is on the Titans practice squad.

On the bright side, Highsmith looks pretty good in limited action

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Originally Posted by tube517

Tupac Skipper is on the Titans practice squad.

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Thanks for droppin some knowledge on where this pass rushing god had landed.

They're the most fun duo to watch since Lloyd and Greene. Yes even more so than Harrison / Woodley imo.

I think the similarities are closer to Lloyd / Green because they're highly athletic and make plays in all phases, pass rushing, coverage, and run stopping. Woodley imo was more of a pure pass rusher, but didn't have the athleticism to make plays in coverage

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

Thanks for droppin some knowledge on where this pass rushing god had landed.

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At least we have one Toledo OLB Jayrone Elliott!! (or was he cut again or sent to PS. I can't keep track) :chuckle:

Skipper...lol. Waste.

Well, how about this scenario, we win the SB. Ben restructures his contract to a very cap friendly deal so he can win #4 to match Bradshaw, and we go on to win back to back SB’s

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Originally Posted by Rotorhead

Well, how about this scenario, we win the SB. Ben restructures his contract to a very cap friendly deal so he can win #4 to match Bradshaw, and we go on to win back to back SB’s

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DONE!

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Originally Posted by Rotorhead

Well, how about this scenario, we win the SB. Ben restructures his contract to a very cap friendly deal so he can win #4 to match Bradshaw, and we go on to win back to back SB’s

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There is no restructure legally possible that lowers Ben's cap # more than around $4 million dollars. The only thing he could do is agree to rip up his current contract. Sign a new multi-year deal with ZERO new money in it. Then they basically pretend it is a signing bonus and spread the hit out over 3+ years.

The number of professional athletes who have ever done a contract like that is essentially zero.

Bottom line, Ben will represent around 1/5 of the Steelers 2021 salary cap.

Wouldn't have been a problem without the proposed reduction of the salary cap in 2021. The Steelers and the rest of the NFL are in deep salary cap doo-doo in 2021. The fact that most fans and analysts are not talking about how bad this is going to be truly baffles me.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

There is no restructure legally possible that lowers Ben's cap # more than around $4 million dollars. The only thing he could do is agree to rip up his current contract. Sign a new multi-year deal with ZERO new money in it. Then they basically pretend it is a signing bonus and spread the hit out over 3+ years.

The number of professional athletes who have ever done a contract like that is essentially zero.

Bottom line, Ben will represent around 1/5 of the Steelers 2021 salary cap.

Wouldn't have been a problem without the proposed reduction of the salary cap in 2021. The Steelers and the rest of the NFL are in deep salary cap doo-doo in 2021. The fact that most fans and analysts are not talking about how bad this is going to be truly baffles me.

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Why do you want to talk about it when there’s nothing you can do about it. Yes it’s going to be a problem, but right now my team is 9-0 and there is a core that’s under contract for next year. “Nature finds a way”.

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Originally Posted by Hawkman

Why do you want to talk about it when there’s nothing you can do about it. Yes it’s going to be a problem, but right now my team is 9-0 and there is a core that’s under contract for next year. “Nature finds a way”.

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Mostly because I don’t buy the NFLs math that revenue is down so much that they have to slash the cap by an amount that will alter the story of every single franchise.

If you’re going to break the league, I feel you gotta demonstrate you’ve a good reason.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Mostly because I don’t buy the NFLs math that revenue is down so much that they have to slash the cap by an amount that will alter the story of every single franchise.

If you’re going to break the league, I feel you gotta demonstrate you’ve a good reason.

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No, I get it, but there is nothing WE can do about it, so let’s enjoy this crazy COVID-19, 9-0 season.....for all we know, there may be no NFL next year.

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Originally Posted by teegre

I know that we don’t have the money to keep both, and it saddens me. Not necessarily because of their play (which is phenomenal), but because the two of them seem like legit friends.

No matter which one gets a sack/makes a big play, the other one finds the first... and they do this handshake dance. It’s all smiles & fun. Likewise, I’ve seen where they crash interviews together... which is hilarious. They seem to be really close.

I know that Harrison & Keisel were close like that, as well... and I’d like to see the TJ & Bud thing continue to grow for the next six or seven seasons.

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I had the same thought - mostly how nice it would be to keep both of them. I do think that he will not be as good on another team but some team will overpay to get him (usually jets or Washington) and wish some of that Steeler magic would rub off on the rest of the team.

cant begrudge a guy for wanting the most money as he can get but I honestly believe he will have more professional success and be happier if he took less and stayed here. (See examples of: Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown, Leveon Bell, Neil O’Donnell, Yancey Thigpen, Nate Washington, ...)

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Originally Posted by EzraTank

And that's what sucks about salary caps. Yes, I understand it prevents the "rich" teams from buying players but it stinks. I wish they built a way into the CBA that counted salary cap pay to your own draft picks at a different salary percentage vs free agents.

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The Larry Bird Exception :nod:

After being with a team for 4 seasons, a player who is re-signed for $10 million/season would only count $7.5 million against the cap. I would also want to see a longevity clause, so that that discount percentage goes from 25% to 30% if a player has been with the team for 8 seasons.

Since we are on the topic of the cap...

Don’t quote me on this, but the NFL owners receive the majority of their money from the TV deals (not from ticket sales). No one in the stands should not affect the cap... unless, you know, the owners are simply using the pandemic as a reason to lower the cap (something they’ve been trying to do for a decade). SMFH

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

IMO, Alex Highsmith is the future at OLB opposite Watt.

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Taking emotions out of it: that is the logical route to take.

A few weeks back, one of the NFL analysts (an O-line guy) did a highlight about how Highsmith uses his hands and a variety of moves to beat O-linemen. (There was a similar tape made when Highsmith was coming out of college.) Highsmith does not possess Dupree’s freakish athleticism, but Highsmith has the “skills” to excel at OLB. Plus, like Watt, Highsmith seems to have a motor that never quits (of course, Watt does it all game long; Highsmith only plays a few snaps at a time).

ANALYSIS:
By replacing Dupree with Highsmith, there might be a momentary drop-off in production, but there will also be a significant savings in cap space (which will be used to re-sign Watt).

SUMMATION:
My brain gets it... my heart doesn’t like it.

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Originally Posted by teegre

Taking emotions out of it: that is the logical route to take.

A few weeks back, one of the NFL analysts (an O-line guy) did a highlight about how Highsmith uses his hands and a variety of moves to beat O-linemen. (There was a similar tape made when Highsmith was coming out of college.) Highsmith does not possess Dupree’s freakish athleticism, but Highsmith has the “skills” to excel at OLB. Plus, like Watt, Highsmith seems to have a motor that never quits (of course, Watt does it all game long; Highsmith only plays a few snaps at a time).

ANALYSIS:
By replacing Dupree with Highsmith, there might be a momentary drop-off in production, but there will also be a significant savings in cap space (which will be used to re-sign Watt).

SUMMATION:
My brain gets it... my heart doesn’t like it.

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I said it pre draft, after you were pumping Highsmith's tires and I watched some film on him and Shrine Game, ..."Alex Highsmith already has a larger array of pass rush skill and moves than Bud Dupree did". Even 3rd year NFL pro Bud Dupree didnt have the pass rush skill that Highsmith had on his first day of Steelers camp. Highsmith just isnt the athlete that Dupree is, but he is worth 7-10 sacks a season with full time reps IMO.

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Originally Posted by teegre

The Larry Bird Exception :nod:

After being with a team for 4 seasons, a player who is re-signed for $10 million/season would only count $7.5 million against the cap. I would also want to see a longevity clause, so that that discount percentage goes from 25% to 30% if a player has been with the team for 8 seasons.

Since we are on the topic of the cap...

Don’t quote me on this, but the NFL owners receive the majority of their money from the TV deals (not from ticket sales). No one in the stands should not affect the cap... unless, you know, the owners are simply using the pandemic as a reason to lower the cap (something they’ve been trying to do for a decade). SMFH

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And that is exactly why I think everyone who cares about the NFL should be talking about this. The owners are lowering the cap because it is what they have always wanted to do. Not because they really really have to. Sure they lost billions in revenue...but they still made billions. And now they are going to worry about hundreds of millions?

Is there a chance they franchise tag Bud again and would Bud player under the tag again? He's gotta want a longterm deal, but if he sticks it out one more season then Ben's contract will be up, opening up some space.

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Originally Posted by RunNGun

Is there a chance they franchise tag Bud again and would Bud player under the tag again? He's gotta want a longterm deal, but if he sticks it out one more season then Ben's contract will be up, opening up some space.

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If they did that, they would have to gut the roster to make the math work. Every other FA would have to be allowed to leave (AV, Juju, Conner, Hilton, Sutton, Fieler, etc) and they would have to cut several others (McDonald, Haden, VW) to make the math work. In addition, any veteran under contract gets the max restructure (which may have to happen anyways!). No other "depth" FAs get signed. And I have no idea where the $$$ for the draft class and the 2021 in season stuff would come from.

Every million dollars the cap goes up, the possibility goes up from "not at all" to "I guess there is mathematically a way...". But they would need the 2021 cap to hit that $200+ million window that ownership seems set against...

...But I am not a cap "guru" I just read a lot by others that are...so I have no doubt that in a few months most of what I have posted on this will be viewed as laughable as it gets revealed what I didn't know!

Jack Ham and Jack Lambert were the best all time not to mention Troy Polamalu and Ryan Clark as a pair of S.

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Originally Posted by teegre

Taking emotions out of it: that is the logical route to take.

A few weeks back, one of the NFL analysts (an O-line guy) did a highlight about how Highsmith uses his hands and a variety of moves to beat O-linemen. (There was a similar tape made when Highsmith was coming out of college.) Highsmith does not possess Dupree’s freakish athleticism, but Highsmith has the “skills” to excel at OLB. Plus, like Watt, Highsmith seems to have a motor that never quits (of course, Watt does it all game long; Highsmith only plays a few snaps at a time).

ANALYSIS:
By replacing Dupree with Highsmith, there might be a momentary drop-off in production, but there will also be a significant savings in cap space (which will be used to re-sign Watt).

SUMMATION:
My brain gets it... my heart doesn’t like it.

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All 3 are just oddly measurable athletes. What Dupree does at 270 is bonkers, but Watt is no slouch and Highsmith measures out better than I realized:

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/bud-dupree
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/tj-watt
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/alex-highsmith

Of effective current OLB players that Highsmith's testing numbers come out near -- he is a lighter Z Smith from Green Bay: https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/zadarius-smith

The stuff on how advanced Highsmith is as a pass rusher is good to hear. What I "worry" about is not the pass rush, but the run defense. Highsmith is about 35 pounds lighter, not as muscled up, and not as quick. Dupree flying after RBs on the backside is a staple of the Steelers defense. Not to mention, despite what many others say, Dupree plays really good run defense to his side as well.

Hopefully, Highsmith can grow into that.

Highsmith already looks good in limited action. It probably would be smart to spend whatever it takes to keep TJ long term because he is the franchise edge rusher and roll with Highsmith as the no. 2 edge rusher at a significant discount

Quote:

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Originally Posted by teegre

The Larry Bird Exception :nod:

After being with a team for 4 seasons, a player who is re-signed for $10 million/season would only count $7.5 million against the cap. I would also want to see a longevity clause, so that that discount percentage goes from 25% to 30% if a player has been with the team for 8 seasons.

Since we are on the topic of the cap...

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In all honesty, when it comes to the cap (and I know they'd never do it, but . . .), I wouldn't mind at all seeing the cap broken down across the league to position caps rather than team caps. So, QBs, punters, kickers, and long snappers have one cap (those who are the primary decision makers on a play with the ball). WRs and RB have a their own cap. Oline has their own cap (perhaps flexing one TE to the WR cap and the rest stays under the O line cap). DBs have their cap. LBs and the D Line has their cap (so there's no problem with 3-4 vs. 4-3 and who gets counted where). All special-teams only players count against their position cap.

Again, I know it would never happen, but I'd love to see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by teegre

The Larry Bird Exception :nod:

After being with a team for 4 seasons, a player who is re-signed for $10 million/season would only count $7.5 million against the cap. I would also want to see a longevity clause, so that that discount percentage goes from 25% to 30% if a player has been with the team for 8 seasons.

Since we are on the topic of the cap...

Don’t quote me on this, but the NFL owners receive the majority of their money from the TV deals (not from ticket sales). No one in the stands should not affect the cap... unless, you know, the owners are simply using the pandemic as a reason to lower the cap (something they’ve been trying to do for a decade). SMFH

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Yep, why penalize a team for having successful drafts and picking up 5th year options. It doesn’t effect the Browns or Jets because the draft “busts” but it sucks for teams successful in draft having to send guys packing after developing them for 4 years.

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Originally Posted by cubanstogie

Yep, why penalize a team for having successful drafts and picking up 5th year options. It doesn’t effect the Browns or Jets because the draft “busts” but it sucks for teams successful in draft having to send guys packing after developing them for 4 years.

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It would even be an improvement if they did something like they did in basketball where a player could get more money with his current team than if he becomes a free agent. Then allow teams to carry that much more cap room because of that rule.

he current system still works because the better organizations just do it better than everyone else. That's why the same teams win consistently over time. However, it would be nice if there was even more incentive and greater reward for doing things well.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

And that is exactly why I think everyone who cares about the NFL should be talking about this. The owners are lowering the cap because it is what they have always wanted to do. Not because they really really have to. Sure they lost billions in revenue...but they still made billions. And now they are going to worry about hundreds of millions?

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I truly don’t think that the human mind readily understands how significantly bigger a billion is than a million.

A million seconds is 12 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

All 3 are just oddly measurable athletes. What Dupree does at 270 is bonkers, but Watt is no slouch and Highsmith measures out better than I realized:

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/bud-dupree
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/tj-watt
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/alex-highsmith

Of effective current OLB players that Highsmith's testing numbers come out near -- he is a lighter Z Smith from Green Bay: https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/zadarius-smith

The stuff on how advanced Highsmith is as a pass rusher is good to hear. What I "worry" about is not the pass rush, but the run defense. Highsmith is about 35 pounds lighter, not as muscled up, and not as quick. Dupree flying after RBs on the backside is a staple of the Steelers defense. Not to mention, despite what many others say, Dupree plays really good run defense to his side as well.

Hopefully, Highsmith can grow into that.

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That is a valid concern (because, even Bud was a “bust” people didn’t argue that he could play the run very well).

After the Dallas game, someone (Baldinger?) did a breakdown of a run play made by Highsmith. What stood out for the analyst was that Highsmith used his hands (his strength) to get around the OT, move the TE aside, and make the TFL on the RB.

Now, if a pulling guard comes at him, he’s not going to be able to “hold his ground” like Dupree does. But, I’m confident that Highsmith will use his strengths (hands, spin move) to avoid being enveloped by the guard... and make the tackle.

SUMMATION:
Yes, Highsmith definitely has some big shoes to fill.