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Maybe I'm the only one, but it so damn frustrating with them constantly rotating our OLB in and out just about every other series.. The more they are in the game, the better they are going to become.. Jarvis is just a body running around.. Harrison might be 38 years old but is the best pash rusher we have.. keep him off the sidelines and leave him in the freaking game.. I just can't wrap my head around what the hell butler is trying to do..
It should be painfully obvious the Steelers FO/Coach are very unsuccessful at drafting and developing defensive players. The Rooneys need to see this for what it is, a Coaching problem not a player issue
Timmons, Shazier, Tuitt and Heyward are Probowl level talent though and Mitchell isn't far off.
The edge rushers and secondary is the major issue in a pass happy league...
I disagree. The Steelers have drafted and developed good defensive players like Lloyd mentioned above.Quote:
Originally Posted by WCSteeler
Harrison simply can not play all of the snaps. He is 38. His legs will go by week 6. They rotate the linebackers because they have to. None of them are any good.
This is a great thread because you simply have to refer to posters in this thread (and writers around the internet)to see exactly what the main problem is with the Steelers: The pass rush.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/09...imary-problem/
Alex Kozora in his piece above has hit the nail on the head: "The pass rush it the problem". Moojouw above also hit it on the head when referring to the OLB: "None of them are any good".
"Frustrating" as referred in the title of the thread by lowester is also appropriate. It is FRUSTRATING The Steelers knew the pass rush needed to be addressed the consensus best pass rusher in the draft was available and they did not select him.
I don't know if I agree with WCSteeler though. I don't know if the problem is that the Steelers do not develop defensive talent although I am opened to changing my mind on that sentiment. The problem as mentioned above is that they made the wrong decision in the draft passing on Spence
The laid back zone defense the Steelers employ may work against QBs like kirk Cousins. However top QBs like Brady and Wentz (I know Wentz still has a lot to prove but there is no denying he has big time talent) when given time to throw will slice and dice and pick apart the defense - Wentz had time to shower get dressed make breakfast grab a cup of coffee go back and take a nap before he had to throw - a recipe for the disaster we saw against the Eagles.
What's worse is that after seeing this game teams now have a game plan to attack the defense and without a pass rush I don't know what if anything the Steelers can do about it.
All of this is not to say the sky is falling; I still think the Steelers will win their fair share of games. However the poor pass rush will continuously leave them vulnerable to games like this and again referring to the thread's title it is frustrating the Steelers had a chance to address by drafting Spence and didn't.
Another issue: Heyward isn't 100%. High ankle sprain in preseason and was on last week's injury report w/a knee injury.
He won't make excuses and he won't come out but he's not himself.
Frustrating isn't a sufficient word. Embarrassing is more appropriate.
Spence has not exactly been setting the world on fire - http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/SpenNo00.htm
Additionally, Robert Ayers (one of the Bucs primary pass rushers) was inactive yesterday due to injury and Spence did not get the call to take his spot - and undrafted free agent named Davonta Lambert out of Auburn got the helmet and the start instead.
Let's not all tear our hair out over Spence yet. He has done as much in the NFL as Chickfilet has - not a damn thing.
Whether Spence ends up being successful or not still does change the fact that he should have been the pick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
The bottom line is the Steelers had a problem with the pass rush, the consensus best past rusher was available in the draft and they did not pick him
By the way the fact that Spence did not play in place of Ayers does not necessarily mean he is not talented enough maybe he is not ready yet, not unusual for rookies.
That's strictly your opinion. It's not a fact. In my opinion, the last thing that this team needed was a drug addict who got himself kicked off the Ohio State team. He's also a guy who's been labeled as a pass rush specialist who doesn't know how to play the run. Not exactly what we need in our defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by awe1028
This literally makes no sense at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by awe1028
The Steelers had a bit of a problem with their secondary last year as well. I don't know, you may have not noticed. Many others did. So they drafted to help that part of the defense. Weird.
Their help for the pass rush is named Bud Dupree and Javon Hargrave. Currently Dupree is injured and not playing. You may have noticed the back-ups that are forced to play and not be good at rushing the passer in his place. Hargrave was the most disruptive interior lineman available in the draft. That is saying something with as deep as this class was at DT. After looking good in the preseason, he is finding that starting NFL interior lineman are pretty darn good when they actually try. Like you said, rookie adjustments.
Interestingly enough, you excuse Spence of all sins because he is a rookie. Why did the Bucs start another roookie, and undrafted one at that, in place of him yesterday? What about Burns, Davis, Hargrave, Freeney, Matacaveich (whatever the scrappy Polish kid)? Do they not get similar patience?
If you were to reread your post above you will see that is your post that literally makes no senseQuote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
It is strange that you keep mentioning that Spence has not done anything but you are now referencing Dupree and Hargrave as answers to the pass rush New flash Dupree and Hargrave have also not done anything. The reason you referenced them though they have not done anything as of yet, is because they have talent (which I agree with by the way) not because it is a guarantee they will end up being successful.
You also say I excused Spence not getting playing time but have not been patient with Burns etc. Here again your post makes no sense. I have not been in any way critical of Burns I actually like Burns and think he will be successful. The problem is that while the secondary was not great the pass rush was even worse and given the huge importance of a pass rush in today's nfl should have been given top priority and addressed especially when the consensus best pass rusher was available
Alright I will try again.Quote:
Originally Posted by awe1028
In 2015 the Steelers had 48 sacks - good for 3rd in the league and only 4 off the 52 put up by the league leading Denver Broncos. Of those 48 sacks (all the details here - http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/pit/2015.htm), Heyward (7), Tuitt (6.5), Dupree (4), and Shazier (3.5) had 21 of them or just a tick under 44% (43.75% to be exact). It was a reasonable assumption that Heyward could repeat his 7, Tuitt would get more as ascending player, same with Dupree, and a healthy Shazier was/is poised for a breakout year as a defender (so more sacks). Now, that is the good. The bad is that the rest of the sacks came from random "other defender" and no one outside of Harrison (with 5 sacks) could be counted on to replicate or surpass their 2015 total. So is there a pass rush problem? Yeah - basically there is no edge threat besides Dupree and the 2 DE's. Bad if Dupree doesn't improve, gets hurt or otherwise stinks (what we have now) but survivable if Dupree can be a consistent down by down threat (Clay Matthews hasn't had a reliable running mate for years and he terrorize opponents). So the pass rush remains an exercise in roster theory rather than a real thing on the field. One can only hope that a healthy Dupree and Shazier can provide a series of jolts to the pass rush over the course of the season.
In 2015 the Steelers also had a pass coverage problem. They finished 5th against the run and 30th against the pass. Three. Zero. (Data from here - http://www.pro-football-reference.co...tm#all_passing). So what did they do? Well they basically fired 50% of the starting secondary (Blake and Will Allen) and they let Boykin walk for good measure. Turned over 3 key positions in the secondary to new starters (Cockrell, Golson, and Golden). Then due to injury shuffled that deck to include more rookies (Davis and Burns) and they brought in a lottery ticket in Gilbert.
Just in case the pass rush didn't go as planned (see above) they brought in a disruptive penetrating DT to play between Tuitt and Heyward. This in theory adds another sack guy to the roster and should help the pass rush #'s of the DEs to either side of him - who just happened to be 2015's team sack leaders! In addition to that move to bolster the pass rush, they brought in 2 immediate guys to help one of the worst secondaries in the league (Burns and Davis). I mean what more do you want?
If the above was too much to read - it boils down to this. If you are pretty good at one thing and pretty bad at another - many believe the solution is not to double down on the thing you are good at the total expense of the thing you are bad at. No Noah Spence means Artie Burns is a Steeler. By extension, Artie Burns means Sean Davis is a Steeler (likely go with a "true" CB if no Burns). So when I am speaking of patience, I mean that Spence and Burns are judged off of each other and their respective impacts in the NFL. I have seen nothing yet from Spence that makes me want him on the Steelers roster in place of Burns.
Long story short - this is Lacy and Bell. Or Bell and Arthur Brown. Given their non Jarvis Jones track record in the first round, I'm going to give this team the benefit of the doubt.
What pass rush? You can't always fault the players here when they have 2 DL in the game and 4 LBs dropping back into coverage...with a 2 on 5...it's easy for a QB to find an open receiver...
What the Steelers really need is a real couch! :couch:
:lol:
http://www.steeleraddicts.com/forum/...l=1#post599076Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Deal Steel
No surprise yesterday was the most traffic that place has had in months. When they were 2-0 after last week? Crickets.
I just don't get "fans" who only seem content when they can bitch and moan and be miserable. :noidea:
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0326...couch1_576.jpg He's ready to take over!Quote:
Originally Posted by fansince'76
Chickillo appears active, but not enough tape to make a call as to his progress. Could he be any worse than Jones?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
You are right about Harrison, but he should be in there during crucial moments. He may also have to play a lot in certain games if it is needed. Jones isn't going to make anything happen. He has proven that time and time again. I would like to see Chickillo get a few more snaps in place of Jones.
Yea, I don't get it either. I guess that their know-it-all attitudes just don't work when the team wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by fansince'76
I think we need to at least try and blitz more or at the very least make scheme changes. The screen passes are killing the defense and the lack of sacks is not excusable. Sitting back and giving the QB time isn't working.
You are right your post was too hard to read. But it is not because it was too much but rather because you are still not making any sense. If your are going to continue to "try again" then at least make some sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
You state that the Steelers have a problem with the pass rush. You also state that the secondary also have a pass coverage problem. On both points we agree. It appears that where we disagree is which of the two areas is more problematic.
It seems you are saying that the pass rush is "pretty good" and the secondary is "pretty bad" For me it is the total opposite and as such the pass rush should be the priority over the secondary
It is a well known fact that an effective pass rush improves the secondary but the reverse is not necessarily true. For example most people have said that the secondary is improved in 2016 but it has had no effect on the pass rush
It is also well known that the best way to defend great QBs is to make them uncomfortable and the way to do that is applying pressure. You saw it against the Eagles Wentz had all day to throw and he picked apart the defense
The Steelers secondary was not great Yes a part of that was due to talent but a big part was also the fact the steelers sold out in order to get pressure on the QB which left the secondary vulnerable
Your last point using the Bell Lacy debate as a similar example to the current debate on the secondary vs pass rush now is like comparing apples to oranges. Both Lacy and Bell are RBs. The Steelers had a problem at RB and they addressed it by picking a RB The question as whether Lacy or Bell was the better RB is a different question. The point is that the Steelers had a problem at RB and they addressed it. The Steelers had a problem getting pressure on the QB and they did not address it two separate situations.
You're right. I'm way off base. Clearly the lack of drafting Spence in the first round is the first step down the path to ruin for the franchise.
When Bell was chosen a large portion of the internet freaked out. Lacy was clearly the better RB. Why even take a RB that high in the draft - it is a position that can be taken care of later. Why not take Arthur Brown and get the next great Steelers linebacker?
A few years later and Bell (when he isn't either broken or suspended) is the best RB in the league and one of the most potent offensive threats in the league. Lacy is fat and underused. Brown is almost out of the league.
Does this debate in any way sound familiar?
We won't know who is the better NFL player for 2-3 years between Spence and Burns. Maybe Spence is the next great pass rushing DE (another whole under examined part of this - no one knows whether or not Spence can stand up and play 3-4 OLB) or maybe he isn't. Maybe Burns is the shutdown corner. Maybe he isn't. But to state categorically that there was only one correct pick in the draft is not possible either.
"The Steelers secondary was not great Yes a part of that was due to talent but a big part was also the fact the steelers sold out in order to get pressure on the QB which left the secondary vulnerable"
How would Spence fix that? If pressure fixes everything and the Steelers had one of the 3 best pass rushes in the league, what would 5 or 6 more sacks do? Would it make Antwon Blake cover better? WOuld it make Will Allen not old and slow? Because w/out Burns and Davis that is who is still on the roster.
Let me make it easy for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by awe1028
In 2015 the Steelers had 48 sacks - good for 3rd in the league and only 4 off the 52 put up by the league leading Denver Broncos.
In 2015 the Steelers also had a pass coverage problem. They finished 5th against the run and 30th against the pass
That's all that you should need to see that pass coverage was a bigger need than pass rush. Don't forget that we're also missing Dupree, who was being counted on to continue to improve the pass rush.
I don't fault the players I fault Colbert for not addressing the pass rush Butler is simply trying to play with the cards he has been dealt.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
Butler knows that the only way for the Steelers to generate a pass rush is by blitzing. However he saw what happened to the secondary when he did that last year.
He is trying the opposite this year. At times as you have noticed he is only sending 2 and dropping everybody else into coverage. He is hoping that having so many players in coverage will better defend the pass thus compensating for the lack of talent in the pass rush
Against Kirk Cousins it worked because he is not very good. Against the Bengals it worked for awhile but you could see in the second half especially the fourth quarter the Bengals began to adjust and move the ball more If it were not for the fumble who knows what would have happened in that game
Now they played the Eagles who have a very talented QB. We know that when you play against great QBs you have to get pressure or they will pick you apart and that is exactly what happened.
The problem is both our pass rush and our secondary suck. Not one or the other lol
The quickest way to improve....or at least cover up....both areas would in fact be to improve the pass rush.
Sadly i just do not think there is much we can do at this point. Pass rushers come at a premium in this league and finding someone who could be able to come in during the year and make a difference is a very tall task.
Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
I heard a stat today that 46 different players in the league have more sacks than the whole Steelers Defense...
I feel you Bro! Harrison is our best pass rusher. The problem is that he's 38 and we can't keep him on the field all game. He will get gassed and even he admitted to that. The problem is Dupree is down and we absolutely whiffed on selecting Jarvis and the retirement of Worilds who AT LEAST is 2x better than Jarvis. I really don't see much more Butler can do right now.
Butler is so afraid to get burned by the pass that he gets burned by the pass.
Gotta throw the dogs at them often. Not once or twice a game.
He played this same garbage approach the first couple of games last year, then he started getting creative they saw the pass rush open up. Team were still able to pass the ball at will (happens when you have guys way off the line) but they became disruptive which is a HUGE positive.
This is all Lebeaus fault anyway. I just wish the team would move on from him and his disciples.
Our pass rush is indeed a problem. However, I can't sit here and say that Spence should have been the pick. We were third in sacks last year and had a porous secondary. Hargrave was picked this year to help the pass rush. The problem is our primary pass rusher (Dupree) got hurt.
I think the front office got it right. They drafted Burns and Davis infusing talent into a secondary that had none also knowing that we still had Golson. Golson gets hurt again and they make a move in getting Gilbert. Despite what some may say the secondary is already playing better opposed to last year. Adding talent to your secondary when you were 3rd in sacks last year is common sense.
Truthfully our misses in the draft to improve the pass rush has killed the team. We selected Bruce Davis, Sylvester, Worilds and Jarvis. Worilds may be slightly above average but I think we can say they are all misses. Those misses not only hurt the pass rush but kept us from selecting high level talent in the secondary and it caught up to them last year.
The secondary was an absolute must and I feel they will be fine, but the misses in their draft selections for the pass rush is what is truly hurting them.
THISQuote:
Originally Posted by Method28
First bolded is well known to be absolutely true.
Second bolded is also true pass rushers do come at a premium which is why the Steelers should have drafted Spence the consensus best pass rusher in the draft when they had the chance.
Unfortunately you may very well be right there may just not be anything they can do at this point.
Maybe Butler should go back to what they did last year blitz blits and blitz some more. This will leave the secondary more vulnerable similar to what happened last year However he has to hope that the younger guys is the secondary can handle it
If not games like what happened to them against the Eagles ie the defense being picked apart may very well happen again
Definitely hope they look at Pitt's pass rusher, Ejuan Price come next draft.
Looks like the next Dumervil. Has 9.5 TFL on the season, 5.5 sacks on the season(22 for his college career). Like Dumervil, lacks height(6'0") but has natural leverage and bend.
Bruce Davis over Cliff Avril...I was extremely pissed on draft day...
Do people think we have the next great pass rusher on the team right now? I don't. We can either manufacture it, draft a guy, or stick to the coverage/limit them to a field goal scheme. There isn't anyone we can get right now, nor is it draft day yet. Plus we realistically need two legit pass rushing threats to have any. Manufacturing the rush would be going back to the zone blitz scheme, but didn't we just see that not work without all those greats running it?
End of the day, we are going to need a fast starting, consistent game from our "high-powered" and high draft picked offense, or we are going nowhere. It has been like that for a couple of years now, and the defense actually does pretty well once we get ahead by two scores.
Dissolv
Ejuan reminds me of James Harrison to be honest. He has such a great motor and pursuit to the ball. He is definitely the best player on Pitt's defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAndGold
I'm gonna put him in my 2017 sig mock as a late round flyer: :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAndGold
Ejuan Price, DE, Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh redshirt senior DE Ejuan Price twice swept past left tackle Brendan Mahon to force first-half fumbles by new Penn State QB Trace McSorley. Disruptive throughout the day, Price also finished with three hurries, but those official numbers seems a bit low.
Price was awarded a sixth season of eligibility by the NCAA. Price missed two and a half years of playing time due to injuries, including a torn pectoral muscle and back injuries.
Listed at just 6'0 and 255 pounds, Price is an under-sized, over-aged, sixth-year senior, with a long injury history, but he finished 2015 with 11.5 sacks, and already has 2.5 after his two games in 2016. He is likely a late round prospect whose ceiling might be Elvis Dumervil (Broncos).
http://www.catscratchreader.com/2016...rs-and-sliders
QBs are completing 27% of passes & averaging 4.7 yards a play when Steelers send 5. Why aren't we seeing it more?
Study: Why Keith Butler Needs To Start Sending Five
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/09...-sending-five/
Definitely a player fans should pay attention for during the college season. And btw, anyone wondering, he's number 5 on defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler
He's projected a late pick by many(reasons: size, will turn 24 in January, injury history). But could see him going late 3rd-early 4th.
Our fix for the pass rush got derailed when Bud and Javon got hurt. Plus, we stop the run first. Make the QB have to throw to get yards. It's a philosophy that will work most games. Just didn't against Philly.
I'm not going to sit here and agree that Spence was the only player worth taking when we took Burns. Spence was considered a pass rush only player who cannot stop the run, with a history of drug abuse. Maybe he's going to be a force at DE. Maybe he's not. He would be an OLB in this defense - he would be learning an entirely new position and there's no guarantee he would see any snaps.
Burns might become a shut down corner, or close to it.
Last year the Steelers were third in sacks on the season. But they were 30th against the pass with guys like Blake and Allen back there. They drafted Burns and Davis to fix the secondary, and traded for Gilbert who still has potential and might reach it now that he's out of the cesspool that is the Cleveland Browns.
It doesn't help that Dupree is on the IR, a guy who they were planning on playing most of the defensive snaps and coming up with hopefully 8+ sacks this season. Heyward isn't healthy, but an injured Heyward is still better than whoever his backup is.
Hopefully Dupree can come back after week eight and help ignite a pass rush and Davis and Burns improve enough as rookies to not get burned if we do go back to blitzing more often than not. And if the rookies do improve a lot, maybe this defense can get some coverage sacks.