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IMO it would not be a prudent move by the Steelers to pay anywhere close to that amount for the " backup" . reason being Bell makes less than 500k , you sing his relief for 6x as much you are putting bell in an uncomfortable spot and yourself in a worse spot if he in any way takes issue with the difference in pay vs workload ..he is a nice kid , a good kid , but those kind of figures would be disturbing to his Human side ...

Next season he would be wanting a new deal a significantly higher paid deal , sometimes its best to leave a sleeping dog lay

Bells feelings should not have anything to do with the decision imo.

On one hand, I agree with Dwins. On the other hand, Bell has to realize that he's still only in his 2nd season and signing a guy like MJD warrants more money because of his body of work and veteran status.

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Originally Posted by NEPAsteeler

On one hand, I agree with Dwins. On the other hand, Bell has to realize that he's still only in his 2nd season and signing a guy like MJD warrants more money because of his body of work and veteran status.

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If Bell is half a man and has anything even resembling testacles this should motivate him to work that much harder.

Competition is good.

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

IMO it would not be a prudent move by the Steelers to pay anywhere close to that amount for the " backup" . reason being Bell makes less than 500k , you sing his relief for 6x as much you are putting bell in an uncomfortable spot and yourself in a worse spot if he in any way takes issue with the difference in pay vs workload ..he is a nice kid , a good kid , but those kind of figures would be disturbing to his Human side ...

Next season he would be wanting a new deal a significantly higher paid deal , sometimes its best to leave a sleeping dog lay

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Seriously? Drafting a RB should not mean that you are only allowed to have other RBs who make the league minimum. I think Bell understands what a rookie contract is.

Almost everybody on the team makes more than him, and that will most likely include one or two running backs before all is said and done. That's how the CBA works, and I have not heard of anyone even threatening a holdout or a work slowdown over a rookie contract, even quarterbacks who are lined up for eight-figure salaries easy. My suspicion is that if someone actually tried to, he would be virtually blacklisted in the league as a malcontent, given all the acrimony that went into securing the rookie wage scale in the first place.

ok lets say for a moment we sign a backup to a 3 million a year gig for 2 years , at the end of that two years just what are you expecting Bell to ask for in terms of a raise when his backup the prior two years mad e3 mill a year ?

you want that mess ? I don't

sign a guy for vet min or close to it and you do not have these issues moving forward

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

IMO it would not be a prudent move by the Steelers to pay anywhere close to that amount for the " backup" . reason being Bell makes less than 500k , you sing his relief for 6x as much you are putting bell in an uncomfortable spot and yourself in a worse spot if he in any way takes issue with the difference in pay vs workload ..he is a nice kid , a good kid , but those kind of figures would be disturbing to his Human side ...

Next season he would be wanting a new deal a significantly higher paid deal , sometimes its best to leave a sleeping dog lay

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um...what? Leveon bell is on his rookie deal. of course he doesnt get paid shit. that has little to nothing to do with what MJD is getting paid which is a so-so asking price of $3million off a 2nd contract (or is it the 3rd? same point either way). why would he at all feel threatened by a guy who might have to wait for a job in the summer on most likely a one year prove-it deal. a guy who is almost 30, coming off 2 bad seasons and a very serious liscranc injury (which frequently means death for a football career). hell, leveon bell would probably relish being mentored by one of the most physical and versatile backs in the league, instead of the scrubs/crippled hyphen we had last season

do you think richard sherman loses sleep at night because alterraun verner gets paid like 7 times more than him? no, because he knows his time with a substantially bigger contract will come

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

ok lets say for a moment we sign a backup to a 3 million a year gig for 2 years , at the end of that two years just what are you expecting Bell to ask for in terms of a raise when his backup the prior two years mad e3 mill a year ?

you want that mess ? I don't

sign a guy for vet min or close to it and you do not have these issues moving forward

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i dont understand what youre saying. you think bell would ask for crazy starter money based on what his back up is making? ive never heard of that before. players and their agents seem to base their worth about their peers with similiar levels of production and i expect leveon to do the same at the end of his rookie contract. if we signed MJD, everyone would still know he could break at any moment or be on his last legs, but he still has the potential to light it up again. Even if he lights it up, everyone knows it wont be for long, evidentally based on the immense lack of leverage and luck he is having in free agency. MJD is no threat to supplant any starter for a long time, and certainly not someone a young, healthy, and rising talent will compare $$$ with

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

ok lets say for a moment we sign a backup to a 3 million a year gig for 2 years , at the end of that two years just what are you expecting Bell to ask for in terms of a raise when his backup the prior two years mad e3 mill a year ?

you want that mess ? I don't

sign a guy for vet min or close to it and you do not have these issues moving forward

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If Bell is any good, he's going to want twice MJD's asking price anyway. And if he's not commanding $5M or $6M a year, he's probably not playing well enough to warrant bringing him back in a starting role. I just don't see it coming into play.

I am basing this off on my lifes experiences ...

I worked in a machine shop years ago , they had a two tier system of payment ...

the guys who had been there prior to the company buying the Shop got a raise every contract , anyone hired in after the date of the new company buying it made $2.50 an hour less than guys that where their longer REGARDLESS of responsibility ....

I ran a CnC machine on afternoon turn the guy on daylight made more than I did and put out less pieces a day , the janitor made 2.50 an hour more than me because he was in the other tier even though he produced nothing , he changed a light bulb once in awhile and pushed a broom across the floor ....

there where more of the " second tier guys" than first tier guys and NONE of us where happy to be making less money as doing as much or most times more work and being stuck on the shit turn because of seniority ....So I am telling you based on what I have experienced in life the guy doing the most work and getting the least amount of money is NOT going to be happy " rookie contract" or not

disagree if you like but until ( or unless ) you have been there , you won't fully understand it

If the next seasons prove that Bell deserves 5+ mil/season on his next contract then no problem. If not it gets real hairy. Blount would come cheaper and be a better signing IMO. I don't see the problem with signing someone now, but it could turn into one when Bell's rookie deal is up.

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

I am basing this off on my lifes experiences ...

I worked in a machine shop years ago , they had a two tier system of payment ...

the guys who had been there prior to the company buying the Shop got a raise every contract , anyone hired in after the date of the new company buying it made $2.50 an hour less than guys that where their longer REGARDLESS of responsibility ....

I ran a CnC machine on afternoon turn the guy on daylight made more than I did and put out less pieces a day , the janitor made 2.50 an hour more than me because he was in the other tier even though he produced nothing , he changed a light bulb once in awhile and pushed a broom across the floor ....

there where more of the " second tier guys" than first tier guys and NONE of us where happy to be making less money as doing as much or most times more work and being stuck on the shit turn because of seniority ....So I am telling you based on what I have experienced in life the guy doing the most work and getting the least amount of money is NOT going to be happy " rookie contract" or not

disagree if you like but until ( or unless ) you have been there , you won't fully understand it

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doesnt work like that in the NFL because of the rookie pay scale. You think richard sherman is going to lose sleep over ike taylor making over $1million more than him next season? no, because he knows his time will come, and it will come with a vengeance. (sorry if that sounds condescending, that was not my intention)

in other news, looks like alex carrington signed with the rams: http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/03...ex-carrington/

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in other news, looks like alex carrington signed with the rams: http://www.steelersdepot.com/2014/03...ex-carrington/

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Damn

Colbert thinks this is a deep draft for DE. And it is, but... we have way too many needs not to snap up opportunities like that.

My experience has been if I agree to X dollars, I can't complain who is making more money than me. I dig in, do my job and then some, and it has always worked out well in the $ category later on. Bell signed a contract as a rookie, MJD paid his dues as a vet. And they are all making more money than they should! :chuckle:

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Originally Posted by steelreserve

If Bell is any good, he's going to want twice MJD's asking price anyway. And if he's not commanding $5M or $6M a year, he's probably not playing well enough to warrant bringing him back in a starting role. I just don't see it coming into play.

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With all the emphasis on passing, the neutering of defenses through rule changes and all the points being scored, unless the guy is a once-in-a-generation talent (see Adrian Peterson), I don't think ANY RB is worth $5-$6 million a year nowadays.

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Originally Posted by fansince'76

With all the emphasis on passing, the neutering of defenses through rule changes and all the points being scored, unless the guy is a once-in-a-generation talent (see Adrian Peterson), I don't think ANY RB is worth $5-$6 million a year nowadays.

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Heh, well maybe. A good RB has a lower market value than a good WR now, that's for sure. Why it's that much lower, I couldn't tell you; a RB and a receiver both gain, say, 1,200 yards, and the receiver is worth twice as much for some reason "because it's a passing league." Well, OK, I guess, but they do remember the RB still gained you 1,200 yards, right?

But anyway, the point is, I would think that after having a shitty, inconsistent running game for like 7 out of the past 9 years, Steelers fans of all people would realize the good it can do to at least be effective. Fair enough, you're not going to win many games just because you can run the ball, but you do need to do it well enough to keep the opponents on their toes. Otherwise, you're always facing 3rd-and-9, which makes you take 50 sacks a year, which makes everyone say they should spend $50M and four #1 draft picks to overhaul the entire offensive line, etc., etc.

To me, avoiding that (or at least a good portion of it) by paying one guy $5M or $6M is a good deal.

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Originally Posted by steelreserve

Heh, well maybe. A good RB has a lower market value than a good WR now, that's for sure. Why it's that much lower, I couldn't tell you; a RB and a receiver both gain, say, 1,200 yards, and the receiver is worth twice as much for some reason "because it's a passing league." Well, OK, I guess, but they do remember the RB still gained you 1,200 yards, right?

But anyway, the point is, I would think that after having a shitty, inconsistent running game for like 7 out of the past 9 years, Steelers fans of all people would realize the good it can do to at least be effective. Fair enough, you're not going to win many games just because you can run the ball, but you do need to do it well enough to keep the opponents on their toes. Otherwise, you're always facing 3rd-and-9, which makes you take 50 sacks a year, which makes everyone say they should spend $50M and four #1 draft picks to overhaul the entire offensive line, etc., etc.

To me, avoiding that (or at least a good portion of it) by paying one guy $5M or $6M is a good deal.

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I see your point. However, I also think a big part of it is that the shelf life of a good RB tends to be a lot shorter than that of a good WR as well. They take so much more of a beating.

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Originally Posted by fansince'76

With all the emphasis on passing, the neutering of defenses through rule changes and all the points being scored, unless the guy is a once-in-a-generation talent (see Adrian Peterson), I don't think ANY RB is worth $5-$6 million a year nowadays.

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With all the emphasis on smaller coverage ILBers and more nickel, I could see this swinging in a few years time. A big Oline and decent RB could have their way with some of these defenses

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Originally Posted by NCSteeler

With all the emphasis on smaller coverage ILBers and more nickel, I could see this swinging in a few years time. A big Oline and decent RB could have their way with some of these defenses

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That is a good point.

If our line gels with Ben and a good stable of backs we could be putting up 30 points a game.

...of course our defense may be giving up 40. :grin:

Regardless of the dynamic, I think 3 million per for MJD is too much of a luxury for us... for a backup role.

3mil/8touches per game = @24,000 per touch... no way. we'll find another Redman/Dwyer and sign them both for that money.

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Originally Posted by SteelMember

Regardless of the dynamic, I think 3 million per for MJD is too much of a luxury for us... for a backup role.

3mil/8touches per game = @24,000 per touch... no way. we'll find another Redman/Dwyer and sign them both for that money.

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not only that but the RB pos has been devalued league wide , MJD is living in a world where RBs had better value ( its what all his contracts where based on )

it is just a bad deal from the team perspective

I don't view it as $3M for 8 touches a game ... I view it as $3M for:

"Crap, the starting running back is banged up, or it just isn't his day. Damn, that seems to happen about 4 or 5 times every year. Well, I guess we have to try rotating 3 backs who all suck at running, so when none of them are effective we'll be trying to win with no ground game at all for the next couple of weeks. --WAIT! I totally remembered we have somebody good now."

Regardless, yeah, $3M is a lot for a backup, no matter how good he is. But at RB, you can pretty much expect the starter to be injured or at least under 100% effectiveness a good quarter of the season, so a backup is important. I could really go either way. But I think Blount would come cheaper while still being able to accomplish the basics of that job, so I'd probably lean toward that kind of a signing.

He's not in for a visit, but it's breaking that the Raiders are not going to re-sign Pat Sims. He didn't live up to expectations in Cincy but finally showed some life in Oakland last season but now they're moving on. With his frame and play, I think he'd fit in nice as a 3-4 end and may be even a better bet than Carrington...

Forget 3-4 DE, Sims would make a damn good DT too. He was a guy who would fit our situation perfectly ... veteran who you know has talent, but much cheaper than he normally would be because he's coming off an injury. No guarantees, but high reward if you take a shot and it pays off. Personally, I'm convinced the dude can still play. Barring another run of bad luck with injuries, that could be a great pickup.

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Originally Posted by steelreserve

I don't view it as $3M for 8 touches a game ... I view it as $3M for:

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:chuckle:

I know it's not as cut and dried as that. It was more my perception of the front office's MO.
You could counter my oversimplified calculation with the premise of "what if all, or most of those touches were TD's". That's a lot of points for 3 million. Making it seem like a reasonable trade off. :scratchchin:

While I completely understand your injury worry, I would argue "you can't build your roster on what if's". Just look at last year. Our Center situation was almost comical, but we seemed to make due. I don't think any team would build their initial roster 3 deep, paying starter money to each just because of the possibility of an injury. That would be the exact definition of "luxury" I alluded to in the previous post.

Once you have your starter, you add a backup that offers some other kind of positional flexibility. You plan on those starters. If there is an injury, you deal with it then.
A premise stated earlier, which I agree with, is that MJD would not offer enough as far as snaps to justify that kind of money (I think this is where I formulated that equation). A backup RB that will not play special teams doesn't hold the flexibility you need for the value of that roster spot.

Anyway, just my .02. I think we all know that we have many holes to fill. That 3 million could go a long way as far as other reasonably priced FA's, or UDFA's after the draft.

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Originally Posted by SteelMember

:chuckle:

I know it's not as cut and dried as that. It was more my perception of the front office's MO.
You could counter my oversimplified calculation with the premise of "what if all, or most of those touches were TD's". That's a lot of points for 3 million. Making it seem like a reasonable trade off. :scratchchin:

While I completely understand your injury worry, I would argue "you can't build your roster on what if's". Just look at last year. Our Center situation was almost comical, but we seemed to make due. I don't think any team would build their initial roster 3 deep, paying starter money to each just because of the possibility of an injury. That would be the exact definition of "luxury" I alluded to in the previous post.

Once you have your starter, you add a backup that offers some other kind of positional flexibility. You plan on those starters. If there is an injury, you deal with it then.
A premise stated earlier, which I agree with, is that MJD would not offer enough as far as snaps to justify that kind of money (I think this is where I formulated that equation). A backup RB that will not play special teams doesn't hold the flexibility you need for the value of that roster spot.

Anyway, just my .02. I think we all know that we have many holes to fill. That 3 million could go a long way as far as other reasonably priced FA's, or UDFA's after the draft.

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Yeah, I'm getting less and less excited about the Drew possibility for that reason. If we could, for example, get Blount and Sims for the same amount of money, I'd take that in a heartbeat. Or even if we just got Sims and saved some of the $3M in the process, that would be great too. Can you tell I'm happy Sims might be available?

Do not know if I want MJD for $3M a season or more, but if they sign ANY free agent runningback, he will make more in salary than Bell. Bell is on his rookie deal making him one of the cheaper players in the NFL. And, I am not going to base my signing of a player on his future expectations. If he can produce in his first 4 seasons like MJD has done in his career, sure, we can talk about him making more than MJD when his contract comes up. Hell, they would anyway. Agents base future contracts on existing contracts and where they think their guy fits, whether he is signed by Pittsburgh or anyone else.

Also, Bell cannot even begin to talk or ask for more money until after the 2015 season. Per the new CBA, no rookie can hold out for more money until after his 3rd accrued season. With Bell getting 860 yards in his rookie season, we do not know if he progresses and becomes a stud yet (so he can ask for that type of money) or if he backslides and becomes a Mendenhall.

The thing is, both sides have to wait 2 seasons before opening contract negotiations. It has to play out. I just cannot fathom the concept of not adding a RB for 2 years in an effort to keep the price down on a player that may not develop and demand a higher price. If he does develop and demand a higher price, I also do not see how the players signed prior to that date increasing his asking price.

Bottom line, if Bell performs, he will want $5M a season or more when his contract comes up. If they sign MJD for $3M a season, that won't even be a speed bump in the Bell negotiations.

Too many good posts to quote them all. Plus that would be a lot of cutting and pasting and I am a lazy man.

Almost any veteran back-up worth anything is going to make more than Bell. I guess that is the good of the new rookie wage scale for the teams and the bad bit for the players. Makes one wonder if eventually teams will "buy-out" bits of the original rookie deal for rising young players to get good #'s on a long-term deal? Thinking kinda like baseball here...realizing that the contract structures are different, but something to think about.

I guess playing contract footsie with MJD all depends on whether the team is getting the injured, less dynamic player of 2013 or a veteran and declining. but still dynamic player of previous seasons. MJD was (maybe still is) a holy terror in the passing game. One of the most productive backs in the league, etc ,etc. Say it takes $3 million to sign him. If you get some sort of version/production of vintage MJD in a back-up/mentor role...isn't that a better use of $3 million than throwing it at depth vets and UDFA lottery tickets?

Now, if you think MJD is basically toast, then yeah it is a waste of money.

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 8m RB Maurice Jones-Drew scheduled to fly to Oakland tonight to visit Raiders Fri. One source said there's "a good chance" Oakland signs MJD.