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It sounds like MT has lost the locker room honestly. Losing sucks, but this is a team with a winning record and currently in the middle of a playoff hunt and they are falling apart. Bad teams with bad coaches on losing teams do that. This isn’t a bad team, isn’t currently a losing team, so coaching isn’t working for them, not pulling them together. I see next season as MTs last unless they somehow turn it around before next game and they have a great next season.
The best one was when Harbaugh challenged an obvious touchdown that had already been automatically reviewed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
The difference is tenure. Tomlin is 10+ years sporting a big nothing burger except his streak of non losing. Okay, I concede. Tomlin is a non loser. But it’s time, just like it was for Reid, McCarthy and others in recent past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
So the standard is not player execution and preparation and whatever other details have floated around this thread....but frequency of winning "something"? What is enough? I wild-card weekend win? A division round win? Only Championship game appearances?Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
The Chiefs had a game winning play nullified because a WR lined up improperly. Isn't that one of those detail things that only happens to Tomlin because he's a players coach and not these wonderful amazing game winning coaches like Andy Reid?
Or what about the fact that Reid's team is only ONE game better than the Steelers despite having Mahomes and a roughly equivalently talented defense? That includes a home loss to the Lions that they looked like they sleep-walked through. Or the fact that the entire team has no receiver with reliable hands besides Kelce? If that was the case in Pittsburgh that would be a Tomlin offense...but no one mentions that here when they extoll the virtues of Reid.
Using the standards applied here, the Steelers should fire a coach after every 3 seasons or so. There is no coaching performance that would fit the rough set of parameters that have come together in this thread.
You overanalyze everything until it means nothing. Everything means something. Nothing means everything. When it's time to make a change, you make it. It's called leadership. Maybe Rooney has it, but I don't see it yet. I'm proud that we only have three coaches since 1969. But is the team never allowed to move on from a head coach in order to uphold that tradition? How many years since a playoff win? How many years since it's been that long? Those are pretty important stats. Im not sure what a Chiefs player lining up offsides has to do with any of this, but in your world, you'll connect the dots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
If Andy Reid's players continue to make those same game-altering mistakes multiple times over multiple seasons, AND the team isn't getting playoff wins, then I'd suspect that his office chair will be getting warm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
There's enough anecdotal evidence to question whether Tomlin and the team would be best parting ways.
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These last 2 losses truly broke a lot of fans and a lot of Tomlin defenders (that would be me). He really needs to do something amazing to win me back. A playoff appearance with a win this year would be the only thing that could win me over. I'll even take a close loss if we play solid ball and lose.
I watched a lot of football this Sunday, well.. I watched Red Zone mostly but it's wild how many times I seen guys WIDE OPEN on a blown coverage. No one EVER slips and falls when they play us, WE always slip and fall. That seems odd given how bad our field is at times but it shows that the defense knows what we are going so there are no cuts that surprise a defender, no misdirection that has a defender going right while a WR or TE cuts left and runs for daylight.
There was a game that was 3-0 and I bet it had more highlights than we do. We are just boring and predictable on offense and no one seems to make a play or does anything amazing.
welcome to the board feltdizz, I feel the same exact way.Quote:
Originally Posted by feltdizz
nice to see you posting here :drink:
Knee jerk reactions based on totally unrealistic expectations is not leadership.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
If it was, Tepper would be a fantastic owner instead of franchise wrecking machine.
Chiefs screwing up and losing the game is pretty applicable since we read after every Steelers lose how no other teams have this or that problem. Other coaches don’t stand for this stuff. And a bunch of nonsense that doesn’t align with the harsh reality of the NFL every week.
Hiring and keeping Canada was all on Tomlin. He screwed that up and broke an entire side of the team as a result.
Nothing short of an offseason to reset and restore confidence will fix the offense.
Is it enough to bring down Tomlin? It certainly could be. There’s plenty of precedent.
But to whine that procedure penalties are somehow something is just silly. Most of the league is hit with maddening penalties from mind numbing mistakes by players each week.
You won’t find me whining about penalties but to compare Tepper and this situation is comical.
I get your point, but the issue isn't mundane procedure penalties. It's the totality of the situation. Nobody would bat an eyelash at penalties if they weren't a symptom of a larger problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
A nose bleed is no big deal. But, a nosebleed combined with consistent headaches, loss of weight, blurred vision and diarrhea is a major cause for concern.
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Ok. You're not. But others are. And if it was unfair or poor form of me to lump everyone together, then I apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
This entire stew pot of thread is just a mess of conflicting and mutually exclusive complaints.
My entire point is that when you want to assess something or measure something you have to agree on what you're units of measurement are going to be, what you are measuring with, and what your goal is.
For some it is playoff wins, but no one says how many is enough or how often is acceptable, just more wins.
For some it is style of player and even winning isn't enough because they did it the wrong way.
For some it is seemingly about player attitudes and mental states.
For some it is a combination of these things that appears to float around based on mood.
For me, Tomlin screwed up the post Ben offensive transition. He hired the wrong coordinator and got sold a bill of goods on what that coordinator was capable of. He also signed off on the wrong OL coach. He also greenlight the wrong QB in my estimation. But even if KP is the right QB the entire approach to his development post-draft was 100% wrong in every single way.
The rest of the stuff? That is just details from the gravity of collapse of the entire offensive system due to having the wrong OC and QBs.
It seems that Tomlin has lost what he does best: galvanize the team and get them to rally. Of course he has four games left to prove he can still do that. What I mean is do that with this team and organization. I don't think he's ever been a great X and O's coach, but he's a good leader (and still one of my favorite people in the world). More than anything, I think the team needs a change in style. I'd like to see an offensive minded X and O's guy come in. Tomlin will never be that. My issue with Tomlin isn't penalties, discipline, clock management, etc. It's philosophy. What he lacks in, he also seems unwilling to surround himself with people who have those strengths. That, to me, is his greatest leadership flaw. I'd give him the last year on his contract to fix that and if he couldn't, I'd move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
I can see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
I disagree. I think few other coaches would have won even half the games Tomlin has over the last two years with this offense. And I FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE that it was a self-inflicted wound as far as we know. Unless ownership "meddled" more than we are aware....Tomlin did it to himself. Despite the fact that he tied the anchor to his own waist, it was still impressive to watch him tread water with it trying to drag him under.
I think that he needs a Haley or Arians level OC. The kinda guy who can come in and just run that side of the team. Other than Faulkner....I would fire everyone else. And if Faulkner is a casualty as well...so be it.
For me, what I would like to see is a shift from the points of emphasis being you are going to win a 17-14 rock fight every week where you just out "detail" the other guy. I think that is why these (relatively) little things seem so massive right now. The team has no margin for error. And playing mistake free football for a half, let alone an entire game, or a full season is just far too much to ask/expect.
For most of Ben's career...I remember thinking...."Well if they can keep to only being down 21 at the half....they can turn it around." That is an incredible margin of error. Now....it is more like 3 points.
It is all indeed self-inflicted and he needs to be accountable for that. I think the only substantial thing we disagree on would be if you think Tomlin should get another 2-3 years to make great improvement with a new OC. Something that resembles a real professional offense would be considered improvement. That can be reflected in one season, or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
For the playoff victory thing....here is an interesting one:
Since the Ravens won the SB in 2012, they and Harbaugh have 2 playoff victories and 5 losses.
Since 2012, the Steelers have 3 playoff victories and 6 losses.
How soon after Tomlin is shown the door should Harbaugh be fired?
Since their last SB victory in 2013 and SB loss in 2014....the Seahawks and Carroll have 3 wins and 6 playoff losses. Should Carroll be fired?
Since a SB victory in 2008, McCarthy has gone 6-8 in the playoffs with two teams and basically HOF level QB play. That one isn't about being fired....because he was and almost was a second time....but it is about context.
Since they won the SB, McVay is 3-3 and might not make it in this year....again context.
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I can get on board with that. No improvement all in 2024....fire everyone at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
After that....I don't have an answer for what "enough" improvement is or looks like at this point.
those 3 wins were vs 2 backup QBs and Alex SmithQuote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwinsgames
So the parameters are:
# of playoff wins
Frequency of playoff appearances
Quality of playoff wins
What else?
how about winning the games you should win , dont collapse down the stretch , win a flipping playoff game more frequently than once every decadeQuote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Ok. We can add those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwinsgames
How are we going to define “supposed to win”?
What constitutes a collapse? Do injuries ever explain anything or should they be discounted?
How frequently does a coach need to win playoff games? Is there other coaches doing it at that rate?
The above kinds of questions are not simply me being an ass. They’re the types of thinking organizations go through when developing parameters for assessment and evaluation.
And it almost never gets done when fans start baying for blood.
For instance we are all taking about draft picks. You posted how few of some draft classes are on the roster. That seems damning. But what does it look like across the league? I think the average career is 3-4 years. So maybe having most of a draft class already off the roster is normal? I’ve no idea. But it’s how we could determine if the Steelers are ahead, behind, or on the curve compared to their peers.
I must be confused because I remember the Steelers losing to 39 year old Peyton Manning in a playoff game, not beating him. I remember wins vs. the Aj McCarron-led Bengals, the Matt Moore-led Dolphins, and the Alex Smith-led Chiefs before getting destroyed by the Patriots.
The new standard.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LSyfa0eCst0
Cowher was a pretty terrible coach too.
Steelers have had one good coach in 90 years…that’s crazy.
Aren’t you the one who started the ‘Fire Noll’ thread too?Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
I remember the Steelers very much on the verge of icing that game until a 4th string RB who was forced to play due to injury fumbled the ball away.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
And therein lies the biggest problem with the "Killer B" era - one or more of them were usually MIA when the postseason rolled around due to various injuries.
Furthermore, if we're going to drag "strength of opposing QB" into this, the Patriots "dynasty" all of a sudden looks a whole hell of a lot less impressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
you are correct ...
I think every one of these coaches have fans who are tired of them. I'm sure Raven fans hate seeing them lose to us regardless of how much better they seem to play for 59 minutes. I'm sure Raven fans are tired of making the playoffs and losing in dramatic fashion lately regardless of how well they play for 59 minutes. It's that 60th minute that seems to do them in. But at least they have hope and a young dynamic QB and good defense. They have hopes of a SB run right now. It could all fall apart given their schedule but they are 10-3 and in first place in the AFC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
I'm sure Seahawk fans were ready for Pete to hit the road when Russ stopped cooking and the defense fell off a cliff. At least they found a QB who can look good at times. However, I would not be surprised if fans and FO are thinking about moving on if they miss the playoffs. I still see the Seahawks playing watchable football.
Now the crazy part is Tomlin is still in the playoff hunt with a TERRIBLE offense. The problem is once again we had a chance to make some noise and lost to the worst teams in the league and it wasn't even close. Other teams play rookie backups and look like varsity. Why does our #2 pick overall who "won a playoff game" look like hot shit who never played the game before?
The problem with a Tomlin team is the offense sucks. I mean, it's not an enjoyable watch at all. At least Kenny playing gave me some excitement he could turn into a franchise guy one game at a time but watching Mitch? Hell, play Mason, at least that would give us some false hope.
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All coaches have a shelf life IMO. Anything after 10 years and I think fans have a right to be concerned that the message is growing stale. It's up to those teams performances to prove us wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
I am sure all teams have portions of their fan base that want the current coach fired at any given point. It does not make their fans rationale, correct, or realistic. It just makes them fanatics....which we all are.Quote:
Originally Posted by feltdizz
I do not find Trubisky's play either unexpected or out of line with his performance in Chicago. The amount of game altering plays his defense and special teams made to drag him top wins was almost totally unbelievable. Rex Grossman won with a similar formula in Chicago and no one would expect him to come to another team and win much of anything. Trubisky keeps getting chances because he got drafted high. Pretty old and stupid NFL story....but he was drafted high....he must be good! Not if the drafting team just screwed it up.
You are totally right that the offense is awful. And that is Tomlin's mess to clean up or get dragged under for. I do not believe there was ever a way to clean it up this season. And, not surprisingly, the available options do not appear up to the task. It will take a total reset on that side of the ball in the off-season to even have a chance to salvage anything from this mess. But it is possible it has already ruined a few careers. Perhaps even Tomlin's own.
For the players themselves, it reveals a painful truth we have to face as fans. We are deeply passionate about the Pittsburgh Steelers winning games and making deep playoff runs. Most players are not able to match that level of passion. They want to win to fuel their thirst for competition and to further their own careers. Winning is great because it means their is both team and individual success. That means you get to play longer and for more money in the NFL
I suspect that the lack of individual success and being trapped in a hopeless offense is why Pickens is acting out so visibly. Pickens is eligible for a new contract after next year I think. He isn't going to get one with the stat lines this offense provides a framework for him to put up. When he hits the FA market in 2026, he may have a significantly lower earning potential/value because of the poor offenses he spent most of his career in. Contrast that with....say....Justin Jefferson....who might become the highest paid non Qb in the league in short order. Or the contract that DK Metcalf was able to sign after his first few years in the league. I think that both players are reasonable comps for Pickens talent level. Pickens won't be able to come close to the $$$ they made in the NFL because of the Steelers offensive shortcomings.
Long story short....this whole thing is starting to screw around with guys careers. NFL careers are short enough already. You don't need to be mired in a bad situation to boot. If I was a Steelers offensive player, I would be acting out too.
Ask yourself this. If the poor coaching continues, who in their right mind would want to be a Steeler? Remember when nobody wanted to go to Cleveland, that's where things are headed if drastic changes aren't made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
I think that they might need more than one "bad" year to get on that track. And...that is what the money is for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1
As it stands now....multiple recent signings have indicated that they came to Pittsburgh and Tomlin specifically.
Honestly, you guys are like a year or two too early in all your dire predictions. Look around the league. The Steelers are right in line with almost every team that lacks a bad-ass QB.
They are a decent OC away from not really having much to complain about...although I am sure we can find a way.
Ben Roethlisberger says Steelers’ clock management issues are result of 'bad coaching'
https://triblive.com/sports/first-ca...k-of-comeback/
Haven't they had more than one bad year? Isn't this year #3 or 4?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
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Based on what criteria? How do you define bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by SteeleReign
For me, I do not see any "bad" seasons. They have finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd in the division last 3 seasons. Could end up anywhere between 1st and 4th this year. This is not a terrible football team. It is just a football team that hired a crappy OC. Fix that, and you are off and running.
But reasonable people may differ and see every season since like 2016 or so as a failure.
But no one ever says what they mean by "bad".
My fault. I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the offense specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
I think it's pretty clear that defensive FAs see Pittsburgh as a top option, and Tomlin likely has a lot to do with that.
Offensive FAs might be more hesitant considering the ineptitude of this offense the last few years.
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Ok. Got it. That makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteeleReign
I think an exciting OC or even a change at QB could change that really quickly.
For some reason....they have been able to convince OL to come and sign. But skill positions.....likely not as much!
True. The hook for OL free agents was probably baited with the promise that their addition will fix what ails the offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
We were told for a couple years that it wasn't Canada that was the problem, it was the o-line.
Now it's appears that, though the o-line is still a work in progress, there are bigger issues afoot.
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This will probably be my last post ! Been with a number of you for 20+ years. But, it seems to be ……not fun anymore. I have an amount of money “earmarked “ for this site …..so Adms” let me know.
If he doesn't go he needs to get his nose out of the offense.