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Noll had 4 coaches from his staff go on to become head coaches, with Dungy the only Super Bowl winner, Cowher had 9 coaches from his and Tomlin has only had 1 so far, both Cowher and Tomlin get credit for Arians being on their staff and winning the Super Bowl as part of their tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
Chuck Noll
Bill Cowher
Mike Tomlin
so Mike Tomlin is essentially a branch of Chuck Nolls tree because Tomlin is of the Dungy tree and Dungy is of the Noll treeQuote:
Originally Posted by vader29
You can be a great assistant coach and a poor head coach at the same time....Problem with Tomlin,his assistant coach are way too much below average,so much that they never had interviews to be a future head coach....Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSteel
And Noll is from Shula and both are also from Paul Brown. Further back than that it it’s too hodgepodge to tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwinsgames
those guys had were brought in by the scout team and identified with talent, the position coaches probably did most of the work helping them hone their skills. Did Tomlin do anything extra or go above and beyond helping these guys out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
His job was to make sure the assistance were all doing their jobs and get the team as a whole ready for the bottom feeder teams and ‘take care of business’
Let's say your entire thought here is 100% true. Just for the discussion. Currently Tomlin has on staff Teryl Austin and Brian Flores. Flores has been a HC. Austin has been on 11 HC interviews(probably all pointless Rooney Rule fillers but 11 times). Mike Munchak coached OL for MT after being a HC. There may or may not be others but those 3 are glaring examples of Tomlin assistants that have at least been on HC interviews. BA was technically an assistant promoted by Tomlin to OC.Quote:
Originally Posted by polamalubeast
All this just to say, some good hires, some bad hires, some ok hires. Just like anybody else. Ask around other team forums how all those BB assistants have been as HCs. It's not really a measuring stick, in other words.
What is a measuring stick is wins/losses. Tomlin ranks near the top.
Depends on what criteria since we can't ignore our lack of playoff successQuote:
Originally Posted by Born2Steel
A total of 19 other teams have as good or better playoff records than the Steelers since 2011 including Giants, Falcons, Saints, Panthers, Colts, Titans, Bucs and Texans. The Steelers have 0 playoff wins in the last 5 years. There are 21 other teams, two-thirds of the league, who have at least one playoff win in that span.
You can't ignore that since it's the number 1 complaint of so many.....yes there will always be unhappy people no matter what since that was the case even in the period from 2004 to 2010 when the steelers were in 3 super bowl but the number would be much less huge if the steelers hadn't had fewer playoff wins than the Houston Texans since 2011
Austin,Flores and Munchak have been in another tree.....For me the tree is who was your first head coach when you were an assistant...For Tomlin it's Tony Dungy only and not Jon Gruden
Ok but my response was to your post that Tomlin doesn’t hire worthy assistants. Assistants that get interviews for other jobs. The choice of LeBeau or Butler was because Butler was getting attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by polamalubeast
Pretty much a guarantee if Tomlin were fired today, he’d at the very least, find a job in Arizona in no time…lol.
1,540 posts in just this thread alone and we still can't agree on whether or not Tomlin should go. :lol:
Yep: :nod: Chargers fans are loudly hoping that the Steelers keep on losing, thus increasing the chances that Tomlin will become available.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
OK. So a Head Coach has no hand in any of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west
Your argument seems to be that the Steelers organization not the head coach is responsible for any and all success while the head coach is responsible for all failure?
That seems to be unlikely.
An example. Zach Banner. It ended up not working out. But Banner has give extensive interviews about how he had candid sit downs with Tomlin and Tomlin laid out a clear plan to transform Banner from failed draft pick to top tier OT. Day to day Tomlin was not going to be doing anything with Banner. But Banner got his marching orders for a plan and a path forward from Tomlin. Why should we believe that other cases are somehow different?
Also, I am pretty sure I read somewhere or other that Tomlin was highly involved in bringing in AV. But I admit I can not remember the details or where I found that information.
They better be hoping he goes 0 for the next 32. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by teegre
I really don't understand the whole obsession with "coaching trees" as any kind of yardstick for measuring the quality of HCs. I don't want my head coach being awesome at identifying future head coaches and hiring those guys over guys who are just good at the specific job required of them to make MY team better. Do we judge Belichick harshly for the failures of the fruit that fell from his tree? He doesn't give two shits about cultivating future successful HCs, nor should he.
Being a great HC is a different skillset than being a great coordinator or position coach. Sure there are some guys who prove to have the additional skills to do a DIFFERENT job for another team down the line, but that means nothing to me. Was Dick Lebeau a "bad hire" because he never had success as a HC? I'm glad he failed as a HC. It meant he knew what he was good at so he was less likely to leave.
I want my HC only interested in helping my team and hiring the people who will do very specific things to make MY team better. Full stop.
Alright, A couple meetings with Banner and having a hand in recruiting AV - cool, good job, i'm sure alot of run of the mill NFL coaches have done similarQuote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Basically, I said in this case with the talent we had we should've had more success and yes that falls on the coach who is supposed to make sure the talent realizes its full potential. 2 wildcard wins and 1 divisional win since our last super bowl appearance 12 years ago? When you have the talent we had with Ben, Bell, the receivers, the all pros on the line, a pretty stout defense, its a given that we should rack up regular season wins against lesser talented teams - which we did, i'll say for the most part. That's nothing extraordinary and alot of coaches could probably pull that off. But when it comes to the playoffs where the talent level equalizes - coaching, preparation, and scheme put you over the top - our playoff record speaks for itself. I give credit to Tomlin for 2007 to 10, he did what he was supposed to do, made sure the talent realized its full potential, but these last 12 years? with the talent we had? You have to hold the HC responsible.
I think Chuck Noll was the greatest coach we've ever had, but if he had the same record to go with the talent of Tomlins teams these last 12 years - i would be equally disappointed and say the same thing - "team underperformed - maybe his time is coming to an end"
That's just it. Not a lot of coaches have done similar. Who else kept AB in line? Who else kept Bryant sober enough to play a couple of games? Who else kept Bell motivated and in shape?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west
Go look at the Ravens roster for the last however many years. Look at their playoff record. Were they "supposed" to win more? If so, why didn't they?
Look at the 49ers recent non-QB roster. Pretty good, right? Where are there strings of playoff wins.
What about the Titans?
How about the Seahawks?
The Packers?
The Cowboys?
We could do this all day and night. Who isn't underperforming by the standards that are being used in this thread? The team(s) Tom Brady plays for. The Chiefs. That's it. Or at aleast it seems that way.
It is possible no one is responsible because the whole "supposed" to do x or y or z is a nonsensical sports radio argument. The NFL is perhaps the hardest professional sports league to win in. Yet Tomlin has done it longer and at a higher level than most and still people think he just goes to work, sacks out on the couch, lets his assistants do all the heavy lifting, and then calls it a day.
Seriously?
FWIW, Tomlin's playoff win % is 2 games off Bill Cowher's and Don Shula's. So he wins 2 more wildcard games in 15 years...is everything ok?
It is a nonsensical argument.
All silly arguments…Tomlin does nothing…Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Its not non-sensical, its a totally valid argument about underperforming - and you know we're taking contention, not a couple wildcard games as you call it. When you have the sports writers and commentators, many of whom are former coaches and players calling the steelers contenders and favorites years after year and they fall way short - one and done or just missing the playoffs entirely - something is wrong. Did all those writers and commentators (not to mention us fans) overestimate the team year after year? Was Ben overrated? or was the coaching staff (i.e. Tomlin) outcoached in the playoffs or unprepared for a few regular season gimmie's? You really think Tomlin did an amazing job and got everything out of the talent he had? Ben and the killer B's with the all-pro line and D were really not that good as everyone thought and Tomlin just performed an amazing job dragging those flawed guys to a one and done in the playoffs? that is non-sensical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Okay. So now we are evaluating things because the NFL media said some stuff. These are the same places that if typically predict more WINS than are possible across the league. Look...the entire league is going 9-7. LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west
For me, any head coach that annually gets their team to the playoffs has done their job. At some point it is up to a combination of luck and player execution. Winning NFL playoff games is harder than any other sport. Steelers under Tomlin had horrible injury luck and some weird playoff bounces. Shit happens.
Take Tomlin's record and stack it up against any other similar roster from the same era. He comes up short in one comparison - the Brady/Billy B Patriots. Anyone else that I can think of...he matches or exceeds their achievements. 31 teams come up short each season.
For the games thing....I'm just telling you what the math is. Take any 2 of Tomlin's playoff losses and make them wins. Then the Steelers go out the next round and he has the same playoff win % as Shula and Cowher. Are they underachievers?
We're talking the last ten years: 3-6 in that span, any coach with that record in that stretch is underachieving with those guys. Your just rationalizing the underperformance of the last decade. Those NFL media guys as you call them, some of who are former coaches and players are paid to give their professional opinion - i think they know some football. But somehow they and we kept overestimating our team - was it always horrible luck? injuries? Or Belichick? Are we always going to make excuses or rationalize poor performances?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
3-6, Chuck Noll was 2-4 during the terrible 80's with a bunch of has-beens and never-wases
This argument will go on and on. We all have our opinion one way or another. I'll state again that I think Tomlin is a good coach but not a great one. I don't see the Steelers changing head coaches in the next year or so, so we will get to see what Tomlin is able to build without a HOF QB that was here when he arrived. From what I've seen during the time we HAD Big Ben, I'm not confident in Tomlin forging another team that consistently is in the mix for championship. I'll throw one other stat at everyone to consider (and we've looked at all of them in comparison to Noll, Cowher and other coaches in the league). This is Tomlin's 16th year as head coach, we aren't going to make the playoffs this year. That means that in 16 seasons as head coach, Tomlin has won at least one playoff game in only FOUR seasons or 25% of the time he's been here. 12 seasons out of 16 there have been no playoff victories. By comparison Noll had 8 seasons out of 23 that he had at least one playoff win, Cowher 8 out of 15 seasons that he had a playoff win. Parcells 7/19 seasons, Andy Ried 12/23 seasons, Bellichick 15/27 seasons.... Tomlin 4 out of 12
Take the last 13 years. How many coaches have won a Super Bowl and how many have been to two? Other than Belichick, you can spin these same arguments in some form or fashion about any one of those coaches from the last 13, 12, 10, 7, 5, whatever years…Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west
Good info...And when you have less playoffs win that the Houston Texans during a long period of time(since 2011)this is a problem....It don't mean this is all on Tomlin but at the same time we have not been close to win a single playoffs win in our last 4 playoffs game,down by at least 21 points at one point in each of his games....Quote:
Originally Posted by pepsyman1
I put zero stock in the preseason NFL pundit predictions. They are almost never correct or even close. Like I said, add up the wins they predict. Then look up the wins that are even possible based on the # of games in the NFL schedule. Often, the two numbers don't match up. These guys aren't grinding film in a basement somewhere learning about all these teams. They watch a couple of games on Sundays and form opinions. Basically like most of us here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west
I think that a HC that annually gets his team to the playoffs is doing their job. The NFL playoffs are chaotic and largely hinged on chance, luck, and other uncontrollable things.
Again, stack his record up against anyone else's since he has entered the league. Who is doing it substantially better?
This is the current boogeyman lurking over everyone's shoulder: https://www.pro-football-reference.c...es/PaytSe0.htm -- the coach every owner is drooling over hiring.
Not exactly a playoff force...
I get your point and that's one reason why Marty Schottenheimer's awful record in the playoffs is mostly down to bad luck since he's never seemed to get a break in the playoffs in his career but in the case of the steelers ,in the last 4 playoff games, they were down by 21 points or more in each of his games, so it really wasn't bad luck in this caseQuote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
I'm not saying that Tomlin is the only reason for that, since it's not the case and last year the steelers had no chance of winning in KC but the others, we could be at least more competitive but that was not the case
Things need to change, since it was not close
I am not concerned with playoff wins, I am concerned that as Cowhers players and coaches left this team, it got worse. The last of them left last year (and let’s face it, he was the reason we got to the playoffs) and here we are.
This is fully Tomlin’s team now, coaches and players. This team constantly has no answers after the first half of games, there are never any noticeable changes, other than the teams we are facing seem to have figured out what we are doing and have an answer. Clock management is still one of the worst in the league. Coordinators are terrible and seem to get worse with every change. For being a defense minded coach, our defense can’t seem to perform up to its talent game in and game out (although this season I can give them a pass with out TJ and the constant 3 and outs by the offense). And the fact that Tomlin doesn’t seem to want/know what to do about it is what is killing me.
You are not watching enough football if you think the Steelers clock management is the worst in the league.
Whoooo...boy....there are some doozies out there. Hackett in Denver. And some combination of Brady-Bowles-Leftwich just screwed the pooch this past week.
No defense lives up to the standards laid out here. There are rarely repeat seasons of excellent defense over the last decade. This year the Rams, Ravens, and Browns were all predicted to have incredible defenses and they have totally been not that.
There are 31 other teams to compare the Tomlin led Steelers to. Use those instead of media driven narratives and arbitrary fan expectations. I am not aware of another coach who has vastly exceeded Tomlin's record/performance. Maybe I am just not remembering or recalling the right comparisons...
Watch the Lions/Bills game. Plenty of Dan Campbell clock mismanagement there…so much that they lost the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Your describing Tomlin as nothing more than an ok or good coach - certainly not a great coach. Taking a stacked team on O and a top 5 or 10 defense most years to a one and done? That's certainly not great. And Tomlin has not been great since 2011 to 2020.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Keep in mind i'm not considering since he entered the league. I'm looking at the last decade, which is what he should be judged on. Noll was judged on his last ten years when he was pushed out finally - why should Tomlin have a different set of guidelines?
Just to have a perspective for Tomlin versus some of his peers for the last ten years (i'm leaving Bill out to not skew the data):
John Harbaugh 97-63, 60% reg season winning %, 6-5 in the playoffs with 1 SB
Pete Carroll 105-54-1, 67% reg season winning %, 8-7 in the playoffs 1 SB
Andy Reid, 115-62, 65% reg season winning %, 9-7 in the playoffs 1 SB
Sean Payton, 82-46, 56% reg season winning %, 4-5 in the playoffs
Mike Tomlin, 102-57-1, 64% reg season wining %, 3-6 in the playoffs, by the way, we were in the playoffs 6 out of those 10 years.
Tomlin is right up there in reg season winning percentage but among his comparable peers the playoff performance is weak. Every team encounters injury or bad breaks great coaches find ways to overcome them (unless its your HOF QB or excessive injuries).
btw, I'm not for Tomlin's firing, he deserves a chance to rebuild the team; i would give him next year for a chance to improve on the present season. It just don't agree with the notion that he's a great or even a very good coach, he's been ok the last decade and i would unfortunately call my team underachieving for the last 10 years of Ben's career.
why should he be judged on a performance over 10 years ago? His last 10 years is what's most relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD