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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
fansince'76
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.
Those numbers are hardly elite. And before you start arguing "but, Ben's supporting cast!" San Diego sent TEN players to the Pro Bowl in 2006. They sent ELEVEN in 2007. They sent NINE in 2008. The only Pro Bowl in recent years where the Steelers sent more players to Hawaii was in 2009, when the Steelers sent three and the Chargers sent two. I'm sick of hearing "Ben has a better team around him," when San Diego has been stacked with talent since Rivers has been there. It's not like he's been stuck playing for the Lions the last eight years.
Like I said I gave you a number of examples of games in the playoffs Ben did not play well in but the team still won. In 2 of Rivers 4 losses, they have been by 3 points, in games his kicker missed 4 FG's.
Lets not forget this nugget. In over 60 combined playoff games for Brady, Peyton, Ben, Brees, Eli, and Rodgers they have faced a combined THREE #1 scoring defenses.
In 7 playoff games, Rivers has played THREE #1 defenses. With virtually no running game in those games.
2 of his 4 playoff losses were vs NE. A team Ben doesn't have much success against and is 0-1 in the playoff vs.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fansince'76
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.
Those numbers are hardly elite. And before you start arguing "but, Ben's supporting cast!" San Diego sent TEN players to the Pro Bowl in 2006. They sent ELEVEN in 2007. They sent NINE in 2008. The only Pro Bowl in recent years where the Steelers sent more players to Hawaii was in 2009, when the Steelers sent three and the Chargers sent two. I'm sick of hearing "Ben has a better team around him," when San Diego has been stacked with talent since Rivers has been there. It's not like he's been stuck playing for the Lions the last eight years.
Is that evidence by Ben missing the playoffs both times his defenses wasn't top 3 in scoring?? Rivers has never had a top 3 scoring defense. The closest he was, was in 07 with the #5 scoring defense and he made it to the AFCC game vs the 17-0 Pats on the road with 2 bums knees.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
Well, if Rivers is such a vastly superior QB in every conceivable way, his presence should have been enough to get the Chargers over the hump at least once, no?
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
zulater
And let's not forget that Rivers plays in the AFC West which means he plays in better weather and often against inferior teams. Ben's worst passer since 2007 against an AFC West foe was 96 and change that he put up against the Chargers in 08, other than that it's all 100+ with most being in the 120+ category.
Just checking at profootballreference.com and the stats bear me out, Ben pretty much owns the AFC west from a passing perspective with a career qb rating of over 101 against the AFC West. Of course that number is slightly skewed because the Steelers played the AFC west in 2006, and Ben had a couple terrible games against Western teams that year in games that he was coming off a serious injury. Truth be told if Ben played 6 game a year against the AFC West his stats would look way better than they do now, not that there's anything wrong with them.
Anyway stat boy, you can keep Rivers, we're quite happy with Ben.
You do realize Rivers has a better winning percentage vs the AFCN than Ben does vs the AFCW. Not to mention the AFCW since 06 has had better pass defenses than any other division. Also to boot 3 of the 5 best CB's have been in the AFCW. Aso, Champ and Flowers.
Also since you like profootball reference, go look at Ben vs Rivers career QB rating vs every division and Rivers is virtually better vs almost every division.
As for the game against each other. Rivers played vs the #1 defense and had 300 yds 3 tds and 1 int with over 100 passer rating. With 15 yds rushing from his team, a punt return allowed for a TD and 13 seconds of possession in the entire 3rd qtr. Ben vs a bad SD 08 defense had 1 td and under 200 yds.
Ok you keep a QB who has never led a top 3, top 5, top 6, top 7 scoring offense and I'm sure SD will keep a QB who has never had worse than a top 5 scoring offense and a QB who has scored more points per game than any QB in history.
As they say DEFENSE wins championships and Ben has had by light years the better defense. They don't say o-line wins championships, or TE's or RB's.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
fansince'76
Well, if Rivers is such a vastly superior QB in every conceivable way, his presence should have been enough to get the Chargers over the hump at least once, no?
Has he retired yet? Is Bradshaw a superior QB to Marino?
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
As they say DEFENSE wins championships and Ben has had by light years the better defense. They don't say o-line wins championships, or TE's or RB's.
You had the number one defense this past season. What happened there? Seems to me you went 8-8.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
SteelCityMan786
Rivers can't even take criticism properly without whining to his fans.
Link?? Rivers has never had team mates or former team mates question his leadership or ability like Ben. Rivers has never been suspended and if Rivers got decked by Seymour, his entire bench would of emptied coming to his aid.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
Down 4 points, 2 minutes on the clock..need a 75 yard drive to win the game...who do you honestly chose (the most clutch player) for that situation?
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fansince'76
You had the number one defense this past season. What happened there? Seems to me you went 8-8.
SD went 9-7. Also #1 in yds, is not the equivalent of points. SD was #10 in PPG. Remind me where Pit ranked in PPG allowed on defense in 09 when they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
Has he retired yet? Is Bradshaw a superior QB to Marino?
Marino got to the SB in his second year. How about Rivers?
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Nadroj 20
Down 4 points, 2 minutes on the clock..need a 75 yard drive to win the game...who do you honestly chose (the most clutch player) for that situation?
Depends.... There isn't clutch players. Just success and failure in clutch moments. Why chose a player off situational football. Situations that aren't consistent. I mean we saw with 2 minutes left, down 6 in the SB needing about a 70 yd drive to win vs the Packers and Ben failed. So it's a crap shoot.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
fansince'76
Marino got to the SB in his second year. How about Rivers?
So getting to the SB is getting over the hump? How many times did he make it after that? How many SB's has Brady won since 04 when Weiss left? Most people would say Brady is a better QB since 04 and yet no success.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
Depends.... There isn't clutch players. Just success and failure in clutch moments. Why chose a player off situational football. Situations that aren't consistent. I mean we saw with 2 minutes left, down 6 in the SB needing about a 70 yd drive to win vs the Packers and Ben failed. So it's a crap shoot.
I dont buy that. There are clutch players in this sport and every other sport out there, always has been always will be. Players that seem to get it done in clutch situations more time then not, (last years SB happened to be a "not" for Ben). It is in no way a crap shoot.
Ben wins games and there is nobody I'd rather have with the game on the line. Does that make him the best QB in the league? Not necessarily. But it only puts very few ahead of him.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
Ok you keep a QB who has never led a top 3, top 5, top 6, top 7 scoring offense and I'm sure SD will keep a QB who has never had worse than a top 5 scoring offense and a QB who has scored more points per game than any QB in history.
You do that. And we'll keep winning SBs while you keep wandering the Web bragging about Rivers' awesome FF stats while your trophy case stays bare.:lol:
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
So getting to the SB is getting over the hump? How many times did he make it after that? How many SB's has Brady won since 04 when Weiss left? Most people would say Brady is a better QB since 04 and yet no success.
As much as I hate Marsha, at least he has been to the SB once since 2004. Rivers? Zippo.
Ben has been to the SB 3 times in the past 6 years. Rivers? Zippo.
Ben is also 11-3 in the postseason...again, when it matters the most. Far better than your boy's 3-4.
Again, your team has been loaded with talent. Rivers has had better skill players than Ben has had until last season. Rivers has also had a better OL than Ben has had since 2005. And what has he done with it? Zippo.
But you go right ahead and keep believing Ben sucks and hasn't done a thing to earn his 3 SB trips and 2 rings, fantasy football boy.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Nadroj 20
I dont buy that. There are clutch players in this sport and every other sport out there, always has been always will be. Players that seem to get it done in clutch situations more time then not, (last years SB happened to be a "not" for Ben). It is in no way a crap shoot.
Ben wins games and there is nobody I'd rather have with the game on the line. Does that make him the best QB in the league? Not necessarily. But it only puts very few ahead of him.
If you are clutch, then there is no failing... Fast players are not fast sometimes. Powerful players are not powerful sometimes. There is no such thing as clutch players. Just clutch moments and every QB has their share.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
fansince'76
You do that. And we'll keep winning SBs while you keep wandering the Web bragging about Rivers' awesome FF stats while your trophy case stays bare.:lol:
The minute your defenses goes, you will see the harsh reality of how of the top 10 QB's in the NFL, Ben's team is more dependent on the defense than the QB. That defense is not getting any younger.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
If you are clutch, then there is no failing... Fast players are not fast sometimes. Powerful players are not powerful sometimes. There is no such thing as clutch players. Just clutch moments and every QB has their share.
How did you come up with that definition because its the first time I've ever heard that!! :chuckle:
Fine don't use the word "clutch"...Ben wins games better then Rivers. Plain and simple.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
The minute your defenses goes, you will see the harsh reality of how of the top 10 QB's in the NFL, Ben's team is more dependent on the defense than the QB. That defense is not getting any younger.
And we'll continue to watch Rivers rack up monster fantasy stats only to shit the bed in the postseason when it matters most, like he's done pretty much his whole career up to now.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
X-Terminator
As much as I hate Marsha, at least he has been to the SB once since 2004. Rivers? Zippo.
Ben has been to the SB 3 times in the past 6 years. Rivers? Zippo.
Ben is also 11-3 in the postseason...again, when it matters the most. Far better than your boy's 3-4.
Again, your team has been loaded with talent. Rivers has had better skill players than Ben has had until last season. Rivers has also had a better OL than Ben has had since 2005. And what has he done with it? Zippo.
But you go right ahead and keep believing Ben sucks and hasn't done a thing to earn his 3 SB trips and 2 rings, fantasy football boy.
Ben is 10-3 and many of those wins were while he played bad. Just look at Ben's numbers for the 3 SB's combined. On any team outside the Steelers and possibly the Ravens, no way does Ben have 5 playoff wins. That team goes as the defense goes. 3-1 this year without Ben. Including a win over the #1 NFC seed. With their 3rd string QB. Take Troy out of the lineup and we saw how great Pit was in 09.
Ben is great with Pit, but outside Pit, he is not a Rivers or Peyton or others who could have the same impact and value on any team. You realize Ben has never made the playoffs without a top 3 scoring defense. What top 15 QB can't make the playoffs with a top 3 scoring defense?
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Nadroj 20
How did you come up with that definition because its the first time I've ever heard that!! :chuckle:
Fine don't use the word "clutch"...Ben wins games better then Rivers. Plain and simple.
It's just logic. Outside of the SB vs the Cardinals, when has ben had a clutch post season TD?
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
fansince'76
And we'll continue to watch Rivers rack up monster fantasy stats only to shit the bed in the postseason when it matters most, like he's done pretty much his whole career up to now.
Yeah fantasy stats, right? Because if you look at the past 20 years, generally the QB's who are the most productive are the ones with good seasons and their teams win games. The ones towards the bottom have bad seasons and lose. In the middle, it can go either way depending how good of a team they have.
They aren't fantasy stats. They are winning game productivity. They are DOING your job on a team of 54 players, 3 units and multiple coaches. If your QB is tearing it up, it increases your chances of winning. With inferior coaches and defenses, Rivers winning percentage is right there with Brady and Ben and 1 season can have him surpassing them.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
fansince'76
And we'll continue to watch Rivers rack up monster fantasy stats only to shit the bed in the postseason when it matters most.
And BINGO is his name-o. :applaudit:
Rivers is a great stats and FF machine but stats and FF don't win Super Bowls.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
Ben is 10-3 and many of those wins were while he played bad. Just look at Ben's numbers for the 3 SB's combined. On any team outside the Steelers and possibly the Ravens, no way does Ben have 5 playoff wins. That team goes as the defense goes. 3-1 this year without Ben. Including a win over the #1 NFC seed. With their 3rd string QB. Take Troy out of the lineup and we saw how great Pit was in 09.
Ben is great with Pit, but outside Pit, he is not a Rivers or Peyton or others who could have the same impact and value on any team. You realize Ben has never made the playoffs without a top 3 scoring defense. What top 15 QB can't make the playoffs with a top 3 scoring defense?
When has Rivers ever lit it up in the postseason himself? And as X-T noted, before last year, Rivers had superior skill players alongside of him on offense than Ben, and still has a far better O-line.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
They aren't fantasy stats. They are winning game productivity. They are DOING your job on a team of 54 players, 3 units and multiple coaches. If your QB is tearing it up, it increases your chances of winning. With inferior coaches and defenses, Rivers winning percentage is right there with Brady and Ben and 1 season can have him surpassing them.
Bottom line, once again:
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
It's just logic. Outside of the SB vs the Cardinals, when has ben had a clutch post season TD?
Clutch does NOT mean just TD's. Its overall performance. Game on the line Ben is the best available guy.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
fansince'76
When has Rivers ever lit it up in the postseason himself? And as X-T noted, before last year, Rivers had superior skill players alongside of him on offense than Ben, and still has a far better O-line.
In 07, 08 and 09 vs the #1, #1 and #1 defenses, two of the games on the road. With no running game in either of those games.
In the 3 games combined SD had a grand total of 175 rushing yds. 58 yds a game.
Rivers number: 62 for 94, 66% comp, 9.2 avg, 7.4 TD%, 4.2 INT%, 7 tds, 4 ints, (1 more rushing TD) 8 total, 870 yds and 102.7 QB rating
Also I will take superior defense and superior coach over slightly better skill position players.
Lets not act like Ben has had chop liver and like Ben doesn't have a tendency to hold the ball long.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
It's just logic. Outside of the SB vs the Cardinals, when has ben had a clutch post season TD?
LOL you're funny!!!
Which Superbowl did rivers win again??? Hell how many has he been to (not including watching from the stands).
Outside of his stats what else does rivers have to hang his hat on???
To answer your question in just one example Ben Tackled the colt who recovered the fumble by Jerome. Ok so he didn't throw it he saved one from happening.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
Footballanalyst
Also I will take superior defense and superior coach over slightly better skill position players.
Slightly better? Delusional. Rivers had at his disposal at one point the best RB in the business and still has the best TE in the business, and V-Jack is equal to, if not better than, anyone in our WR corps now (Wallace and Sanders are still quite green). And we won SB XLIII with BY FAR the worst OL of any SB-winning team in history.
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Re: Philip Rivers vs Ben Roethlisberger
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Originally Posted by
fansince'76
Bottom line, once again:
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.
True. In 7 SB and AFCC games, Ben is 5-2 somehow. Yet 8 tds and 10 ints 59.1% comp 1531 yds and 76.2 QB rating.
Yet the team is somehow 5-2 in those games. But then again the wins came vs a avg Seahawks, Cardinals and Broncos teams that were over achievers and not elite teams. Then 2 teams led by avg QB's in Sanchez and Flacco.
The 2 losses were vs teams with top 6 QB's and top 3 defenses. Just saying! Pit has had some ideal matchups.
