Mayock: Boise State ILB Leighton Vander Esch Would Be ‘Great Fit’ For Steelers

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Originally Posted by teegre

El Gonzo brings up valid concerns. Tape doesn’t lie. But, at the same time, what I see in LVE is eerily similar to what I saw in Watt: a flawed linebacker who is still very raw and has a ton of potential.

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I didn't see Watt as flawed last year. I would say that I saw a kid that is a very good athlete, that as a pass rusher uses his hands very well and always keeps his feet moving towards the QB, while shedding the O lineman hands. His on field drills looked quick like a 225 lb safety and not a tall OLB. LVE looked fluid in his combine field drills to me, but not as sudden in change of direction as Watt. (lets just say he had glide, but not as much suddenness :wink02: )

That would be a good find to compare video of their on field drills at the combine.

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

I didn't see Watt as flawed last year. I would say that I saw a kid that is a very good athlete, that as a pass rusher uses his hands very well and always keeps his feet moving towards the QB, while shedding the O lineman hands. His on field drills looked quick like a 225 lb safety and not a tall OLB. LVE looked fluid in his combine field drills to me, but not as sudden in change of direction as Watt. (lets just say he had glide, but not as much suddenness :wink02: )

That would be a good find to compare video of their on field drills at the combine.

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First of all, suddenness and glide. :rofl2:

Okay, with that out of the way... When I say “flawed”, I mean he has things to work on. Neither seems like a finished product (which is a good thing, because the best is yet to come).

Speaking of video, watch the SDSU game and the Oregon game. I watched those (had them on while building LEGOs with my son), and it seemed like LVE was making play after play. Maybe his technique is flawed (needs work), but in the interim, he sure is producing.

One thing to take note of (I’m really asking): are those tackles past the LOS because he’s dropping into coverage (and having to run up to stop a run)? Because, to me, it seems that on 75% of the plays, at the snap LVE backpedals at least 10 yards into coverage...

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Originally Posted by teegre

First of all, suddenness and glide. :rofl2:



One thing to take note of (I’m really asking): are those tackles past the LOS because he’s dropping into coverage (and having to run up to stop a run)? Because, to me, it seems that on 75% of the plays, at the snap LVE backpedals at least 10 yards into coverage...

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Watch the SDSU tape again and ask yourself if he is lining up 5 yards off the LOS and standing in place shuffling his feet, then sliding to the ballcarrier and waiting ....or is he reading the handoff and attacking the LOS and the ballcarrier?? That should be an indication of why all those tackles are past the LOS.

Then, have a look at the top 4 or 5 ILB prospects in the draft and see if they stand around in "no man's land" and wait for the ballcarrier, or do they get upfield to make the tackle. (I don't think Josey Jewell is top 4 ILB prospect and watch him in the Penn St game :wink02:)

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

Watch the SDSU tape again and ask yourself if he is lining up 5 yards off the LOS and standing in place shuffling his feet, then sliding to the ballcarrier and waiting ....or is he reading the handoff and attacking the LOS and the ballcarrier?? That should be an indication of why all those tackles are past the LOS.

Then, have a look at the top 4 or 5 ILB prospects in the draft and see if they stand around in "no man's land" and wait for the ballcarrier, or do they get upfield to make the tackle. (I don't think Josey Jewell is top 4 ILB prospect and watch him in the Penn St game :wink02:)

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That is the critical question, but there is another layer to it. Lots of silly draft websites like to put a clever phrase on everything and they tend to use "click and close" or whatever the phrase is this year for what you are describing. So we can take the position that several other ILB prospects in this class click and close faster than LVE right now. That means their value to any NFL team in 2018 is higher than LVE's. But what about their ability to click and close faster as a component of overall development moving forward? Take someone like Jewell. He certainly gets upfield better right now. But does he have any room for improvement in that area? Perhaps through increased scheme and play recognition, but his measurables say he does not based on athletic ability. The same data says that LVE can improve from scheme, play recognition, and has the raw measurables to get upfield with "suddenness and glide" that others in the class lack.

2018 - LVE is a "catchers mitt" -- another clever draft phrase. Others in the class play "behind the LOS".
2019 and beyond - LVE improves and marries his raw athletic gifts with technique and recognition and now he is bursting upfield and making his living on the offense's side of the ball. Others in the class are treading water because they simply lack the speed and agility.

Granted, I am arbitrarily upgrading LVE's outlook and likely downgrading others. But that, to me, is the fundamental challenge in the draft. One of my favorite draft writers consistently talks about length to impact ratio. In other words, how long after you draft a player do you have to wait for him to develop to have their maximum impact on the field? Couple that with their best case scenario ceiling and this is the challenge that teams are facing each draft cycle. If I have to wait a year but then a kid develops into a dynamo, was it worth it? If I get a kid who is a notch or three below dynamo but can do that every game all game from day one, is that more important?

Take a few wildly different Steelers examples. Polamalu took a year and half almost to really "impact" and for awhile looked behind some others in his draft class. Then his development progression and athletic ceiling merged and he became a generational player. Jarvis Jones was exactly the same guy from the day he was drafted until the day he was cut. Bud Dupree is the middle ground of this - some progress but his athletic gifts have many feeling there should be far more "impact". Mark Bruener is a less extreme example. He took awhile to get his blocking squared away, but he did and the Steelers were rewarded with an amazing all around TE. Jesse James looks like what Bruener would have been without the blocking ever coming on line.

What am I trying to say in this long and rambling post? LVE is not a definitive high-quality solution to the Steelers ILB woes in 2018. What the scouts and coaches have to determine is what kind of solution is he in 2019-2021?

Here is one other way of thinking about what I am struggling to evaluate for the Steelers LB targets in this draft class. What is the tipping point between finished product and potential?

Look at some recent cherry picked Steelers examples:

1. Timmons - far from a finished product and took awhile to come online, but that sure worked.
2. Woodley - same as above. Until his body broke down he was a ferocious pass rusher and really improved at doing other LB things.
3. Shazier - again, struggled to merge his athletic gifts and his ability to play under control. Once he did it was sight to behold however briefly.
4. Watt - raw and unfinished but provides glimpses of a developing playmaker.
5. Matekevich - he is what he is. If he can get his hands on you, you're tackled. Problem is that size/speed prevent him from getting his hands on you early enough in the play to really impact.
6. Jarvis Jones - the ultimate cautionary tale when you try and talk yourself into "plug and play" over NFL athleticism. Colbert and company rolled the dice on Jones being a finished product who could contribute right away to a team that wanted a pass rusher to reinforce an aging defense for one last SB ride. That blew up in their faces.
7. Bud Dupree - staggering physical gifts. Uneven results on the field. Bust? Not yet. First round impact? Hardly and running out of time to change that evaluation.

So where does that leave things? Well 3 out of 5 first round LB picks say you pick the athlete and develop them into the LB'er. 1 says you better be wary of the LBer who isn't an athlete. And 1 says you should be cautious about the LBer who is an athlete but not a football player. The rest says after the first round, who knows?

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

Watch the SDSU tape again and ask yourself if he is lining up 5 yards off the LOS and standing in place shuffling his feet, then sliding to the ballcarrier and waiting ....or is he reading the handoff and attacking the LOS and the ballcarrier?? That should be an indication of why all those tackles are past the LOS.

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I shall rewatch this weekend.

Here’s what I’ve always said about tackling. Some guys are fast, but can not diagnose a play to save their life... or, they run the wrong way, negating their speed. Other guys have super high football IQs, but are simply too slow to make the play. The prior has a chance to improve, but the latter does not.

high football IQ, fast as hell: Junior Seau
low football IQ, fast as hell: Mike Mitchell
high football IQ, slow as sin: Tyler Matakevich
low football IQ, slow as sin: Jarvis Jones

I see LVE as being “low football IQ, fast as hell” with the potential for that IQ to improve a student he gets more comfortable with the position.

NFL Rumors - March 6 Updates:

The Eagles would love to draft Boise State linebacker Leighton Vander Esch, but don't believe he'll be available. - Tony Pauline, DraftAnalyst.com

Philadelphia, with very few needs, is in position to take the best player available. That could be Vander Esch, but Pauline has reported that Vander Esch won't make it past the Steelers at No. 28. -Walter

http://walterfootball.com/nflrumors

Vander Esch had a very good combine. He worked out like a top ten pick.

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Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler

NFL Rumors - March 6 Updates:

The Eagles would love to draft Boise State linebacker Leighton Vander Esch, but don't believe he'll be available. - Tony Pauline, DraftAnalyst.com

Philadelphia, with very few needs, is in position to take the best player available. That could be Vander Esch, but Pauline has reported that Vander Esch won't make it past the Steelers at No. 28. -Walter

http://walterfootball.com/nflrumors

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I really like Tony Pauline's draft evaluations, but I haven't seen him print any kind of eval on LVE. All I have seen is him reporting that teams are interested.

I think the combine interviews needed to be important, as Vanderesch looks like a great athlete with a lot of potential. As Bill Parcells once said "potential is just a fancy French word that means you haven't done anything yet". This kid may be a HOF when its all done, but his tape doesn't look like an impactful tackler, as much as a guy that plays zone coverage well and tackles guys 5-10 yards downfield.

Brugler Big Board 2.0: Maryland’s Moore, Boise State’s Vander Esch rising

March 8, 2018, By Dane Brugler

–27. Leighton Vander Esch, LB, Boise State (6-4, 256, 4.65)

An ascending player, Vander Esch has the athletic skill-set and budding instincts to be a three-down player in the NFL. He has a better chance of getting drafted in round one than round two.

http://nfldraftscout.com/2018/03/08/...r-esch-rising/

Top inside linebacker prospect Leighton Vander Esch visited the Steelers on Saturday

RAY FITTIPALDO
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
APR 9, 2018

The Steelers are looking for an inside linebacker in the draft later this month, and one of the top inside linebacker prospects in the draft took a visit to the Steelers over the weekend.

Leighton Vander Esch visited the UMPC Rooney Sports Complex Saturday for a top-30 visit, according to an industry source. The Steelers reportedly had dinner with Vander Esch the night before his pro day last week as well.

Vander Esch, who stands 6 feet 4 and weighs 256 pounds, is considered one of the top inside linebackers in this draft along with Roquan Smith of Georgia, Tremaine Edmunds of Virginia Tech and Rashaan Evans of Alabama.

So far, Vander Esch is believed to be the only one of the four to take a predraft visit to the Steelers. The Steelers did meet with Evans before his pro day as well.

to read rest of article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201804090112

He’ll be long gone by pick 28.

I worry about a player like LVE. What I see on tape is a kid that gets overwhelmed by blockers unless he's fighting off a back. Some players show you some of that, but his tape consistently shows him having problems with that. He also doesn't show the natural instincts you would like as far as recognition is concerned.

There are some guys who just don't have the natural power to play the position. Forget about how many times he benches 225 at the combine. I'm talking about real football situations that combine strength, speed, vision, the use of hands, core strength, and keeping your center of gravity. I'm still trying to figure out if his problem is partially his lower body strength, his upper body strength, or both.

This is where Evans is clearly the better player right now with his ability to read and react, and then play with power. Evans is not a great athlete, but he has the strength to play. You can see that he would be able to play the position. The question is at what level.

LVE is still a player that I would be hesitant to draft in the 1st round.

NFL Rumors - April 13 Updates:

The Titans have canceled their visit with Leighton Vander Esch because they don't expect him to be available at No. 25. - Tony Pauline, DraftAnalyst.com

There are some concerns with Vander Esch, which we'll post Monday, but there's no doubt that his stock has been rising throughout the pre-draft process. Vander Esch is 19th in our 2018 NFL Mock Draft. -Walter

http://walterfootball.com/nflrumors

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Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler

NFL Rumors - April 13 Updates:

The Titans have canceled their visit with Leighton Vander Esch because they don't expect him to be available at No. 25. - Tony Pauline, DraftAnalyst.com

There are some concerns with Vander Esch, which we'll post Monday, but there's no doubt that his stock has been rising throughout the pre-draft process. Vander Esch is 19th in our 2018 NFL Mock Draft. -Walter

http://walterfootball.com/nflrumors

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I think that is stupid, you never know who is going to be available (i.e. David DeCastro).

Some Teams Have Medically Flunked Vander Esch

Updated April 16, 2018
By Charlie Campbell

One of the late-rising prospects during the leadup to the 2018 NFL Draft has been Boise State linebacker Leighton Vander Esch. He put together some excellent workouts for teams, showing speed and athleticism in his 6-foot-4, 256-pound frame. Injuries limited Vander Esch to six games in 2016, but he exploded as a junior with 141 tackles with 8.5 tackles for a loss, four sacks, four passes broken up and three interceptions. That injury history, however, has still comeback to bite Vander Esch, as WalterFootball.com has learned that some teams have removed him from their draft board after was flunking him medically.

Sources from four teams said they felt Vander Esch belongs on the second day of the 2018 NFL Draft and would go there. Two other team sources thought Vander Esch could go late in the first round. One team that flunked him medically said they had a third-round grade on Vander Esch before the medical report ruled him out.

"To me, he's a third-round talent, but probably will go higher," said an AFC general manager. "He has gotten a lot of hype, but he plays soft. He's too much like Paul Posluszny for me. He's a good player and will have a lot of tackles, but most of them will come four yards downfield. He's not an impact-at-the-line guy like a Ray Lewis, Luke Kuechly, Jon Beason or Brian Urlacher."

Helping Vander Esch to go in the first round are teams not having 32 first-round grades. It varies by team, but in the final dozen picks of the first round, there will be players with second-round grades getting selected because there are not enough true first-rounders. Vander Esch could be one of those players, but medical concerns also might cause him to slide to Day 2 of the 2018 NFL Draft.

http://walterfootball.com/NFLHotPress

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Originally Posted by st33lersguy

I think that is stupid, you never know who is going to be available (i.e. David DeCastro).

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It’s very stupid. If he winds up being there, then they aren’t going to know what the hell to do because frankly, they half assed it and didn’t fully do all their homework.

Even if players aren’t going to be around when you select, you still have to do all your homework on the player so that you have an idea about each guy and are fully prepared for the draft.

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Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler

Some Teams Have Medically Flunked Vander Esch

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That rumor has already been debunked.

(My guess is that some team in the 20s smeared LVE, so that he’d fall down to them.)

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Originally Posted by teegre

That rumor has already been debunked.

(My guess is that some team in the 20s smeared LVE, so that he’d fall down to them.)

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hey, can't blame the Steelers for trying :wink02:

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Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler

hey, can't blame the Steelers for trying :wink02:

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Well... I do have a Twitter account for a reason. :wink02:


Joking aside, I’d bet it’s the Titans. First, they cancel his visit. Then, they leak this info. It screams of: “What???... it wasn’t us”

Pittsburgh Steelers:

The Steelers absolutely must find a new inside linebacker to replace Ryan Shazier. After that, they should find other upgrades to a defense that couldn't stop Blake Bortles, Andy Dalton, Joe Flacco or even Brett Hundley to close out the year.

Ideal 2018 NFL Draft (First Four Rounds):

28. Leighton Vander Esch, LB
60. Justin Reid, S
92. Duke Dawson, CB

http://walterfootball.com/draft2018goals_1.php

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Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler

Pittsburgh Steelers:

The Steelers absolutely must find a new inside linebacker to replace Ryan Shazier. After that, they should find other upgrades to a defense that couldn't stop Blake Bortles, Andy Dalton, Joe Flacco or even Brett Hundley to close out the year.

Ideal 2018 NFL Draft (First Four Rounds):

28. Leighton Vander Esch, LB
60. Justin Reid, S
92. Duke Dawson, CB

http://walterfootball.com/draft2018goals_1.php

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Chances Reid is there at Round 2?

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

Chances Reid is there at Round 2?

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Zero

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Originally Posted by teegre

Zero

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with something as uncertain as the draft ... that is about as certain as it gets ...

that said I will say 1% but expect him to be gone in the 35-45 range

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

Chances Reid is there at Round 2?

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Originally Posted by teegre

Zero

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Originally Posted by Dwinsgames

with something as uncertain as the draft ... that is about as certain as it gets ...

that said I will say 1% but expect him to be gone in the 35-45 range

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I think it is a bit higher than that. Reid is a "falling" prospect based on what I have been hearing lately on the interwebs. Lots of draft "analysts" that just don't like his game. I think both Reid and Bates test well and are popular in Steelers related discussions, but taking a step back -- a lot of people see both players as "2nd or 3rd round prospects".

Just about everyone is mocking Evans as a Steeler R1 pick. Have the Steelers even talked to this guy? I don't see his name on the visit or dinner list, when was the last time the steelers drafted a R1player without a visit? Sure its possible but it doesn't fit. If the Steeler's pick from their dinner list and LVE is gone, I'll bet they take Guice or Bates.

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Originally Posted by Shoes

Just about everyone is mocking Evans as a Steeler R1 pick. Have the Steelers even talked to this guy? I don't see his name on the visit or dinner list, when was the last time the steelers drafted a R1player without a visit? Sure its possible but it doesn't fit. If the Steeler's pick from their dinner list and LVE is gone, I'll bet they take Guice or Bates.

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He was one of the EIGHT players with whom Tomlin had dinner at Alabama’s pro day.

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Originally Posted by teegre

He was one of the EIGHT players with whom Tomlin had dinner at Alabama’s pro day.

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I think I'll just wait until Thursday. :lol: