Kozora: Antonio Brown Is The Greatest Receiver In Steelers’ History

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

Its the Gayle Sayers effect. He has 2 good season, 2 great seasons and then career curtailed by injury. But you are correct in that those resulted in 2 SB wins and likely got him over.

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I'm fine with Davis getting in. Players can be measured in two ways. Peak value, and career value. When both are at a premium you have a first ballot HOF'er, i.e. Jerry Rice.. But when you have either one, career or peak value being through the roof that player deserves consideration for inclusion. Sandy Koufax, Gale Sayers effect one end, George Blanda, Bob Griese on the other.

A perfect example of peak value is Lynn Swann. His career stats are a joke as far as HOF status goes. But if you had an all time draft of every wr to ever play the game for their peak value not many would go before Swann. Same with Terrell Davis. For that 4 year window he was about as good as there's ever been. If you watched him at his best you'd be hard pressed to come up with more than 10 all time rb's that were better.

A similarly talented back who will likely never get a sniff of Canton is Billy Simms. The main difference between Simms and Davis is team success. But I don't begrudge Davis over Simm's omission. I think he actually emboldens his argument, and hopefully Billy will get consideration from the Veterans committee.

I have also no problem that Davis is in the HOF.

His peak was incredible, he won an MVP and he was one of the best playoffs RB in nfl history.

Look at his stats in the playoffs!!!!

https://www.pro-football-reference.c.../gamelog/post/

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Originally Posted by zulater

I'm fine with Davis getting in. Players can be measured in two ways. Peak value, and career value. When both are at a premium you have a first ballot HOF'er, i.e. Jerry Rice.. But when you have either one, career or peak value being through the roof that player deserves consideration for inclusion. Sandy Koufax, Gale Sayers effect one end, George Blanda, Bob Griese on the other.

A perfect example of peak value is Lynn Swann. His career stats are a joke as far as HOF status goes. But if you had an all time draft of every wr to ever play the game for their peak value not many would go before Swann. Same with Terrell Davis. For that 4 year window he was about as good as there's ever been. If you watched him at his best you'd be hard pressed to come up with more than 10 all time rb's that were better.

A similarly talented back who will likely never get a sniff of Canton is Billy Simms. The main difference between Simms and Davis is team success. But I don't begrudge Davis over Simm's omission. I think he actually emboldens his argument, and hopefully Billy will get consideration from the Veterans committee.

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I agree with you. I have no problem with TD either way. He had 2 years where he was just seemingly unstoppable and the best player on the field. Billy Simms was good IMO and belongs in the Hall of Very Good, but not the HOF. If he gets in, then you have to start putting guys like Wilbert Montgomery, Curt Warner, Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis, Corey Dillon, all in the Hall, as I think they were as good or better than Simms.

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

I agree with you. I have no problem with TD either way. He had 2 years where he was just seemingly unstoppable and the best player on the field. Billy Simms was good IMO and belongs in the Hall of Very Good, but not the HOF. If he gets in, then you have to start putting guys like Wilbert Montgomery, Curt Warner, Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis, Corey Dillon, all in the Hall, as I think they were as good or better than Simms.

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Simm's career ended after 60 games due to injury. But you'd be hard pressed to find many backs outside of Jim Brown who had a better first 60. 5106 yards rushing with a 4.5 yards per attempt with 42 td's on a team with little else. He also caught 186 passes and averaged over 11 yards a catch (terrific for a rb) with another 5 td's. Relative to the team he was on he was much better than any f the backs you compared him to.

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Originally Posted by zulater

Simm's career ended after 60 games due to injury. But you'd be hard pressed to find many backs outside of Jim Brown who had a better first 60. 5106 yards rushing with a 4.5 yards per attempt with 42 td's on a team with little else. He also caught 186 passes and averaged over 11 yards a catch (terrific for a rb) with another 5 td's. Relative to the team he was on he was much better than any f the backs you compared him to.

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I remember Sims, but I cant recall I ever was interested in seeing a Lions game on TV to see Billy Sims run. While he was a very good RB, I just didn't see him as being special that would garner him inclusion to the Hall. Maybe someday he will as you say, but I don't see it.

I remember the days of Billy Simms. He was a fantastic player on a terrible team. He was Barry Sanders before Barry Sanders(Lions best and 'only' real player at the time).
If only looking at it from pure player vs player, Simms deserve consideration for the Hall. From a stat sheet POV, he was the ONLY player that seemed to make positive yards, so of course he got the ball every down(ala Sanders). I can see either side on that debate. He was the ONLY player worth watching for the Lions.

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

I remember Sims, but I cant recall I ever was interested in seeing a Lions game on TV to see Billy Sims run. While he was a very good RB, I just didn't see him as being special that would garner him inclusion to the Hall. Maybe someday he will as you say, but I don't see it.

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Simms is 9th all time in rushing yards per game with 85.1 yards per game. Throw in the 34 yards per game he averaged receiving, that's just short of 130ypg. Pretty heady stuff there. Also consider that the Lions twice made the playoffs in Simms 5 seasons and had an overall record of 33-27 in his 60 games.( we're talking Lions here! ) This with Gary Danielson and Eric Hipple taking the snaps! He was all that and more. If he didn't tear up his knee at game 60 he was a first ballot nominee.

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Originally Posted by zulater

Simms is 9th all time in rushing yards per game with 85.1 yards per game. Throw in the 34 yards per game he averaged receiving, that's just short of 130ypg. Pretty heady stuff there. Also consider that the Lions twice made the playoffs in Simms 5 seasons and had an overall record of 33-27 in his 60 games.( we're talking Lions here! ) This with Gary Danielson and Eric Hipple taking the snaps! He was all that and more. If he didn't tear up his knee at game 60 he was a first ballot nominee.

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And there has been an Eric Hipple sighting.

I think the conversation might be shifting as to whether AB is the Steelers best all time receiver to whether he'll retire as the Steelers best ever player period. I mean he's heading right to that table where Mean Joe, and Jack Lambert currently sit.

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Originally Posted by zulater

I think the conversation might be shifting as to whether AB is the Steelers best all time receiver to whether he'll retire as the Steelers best ever player period. I mean he's heading right to that table where Mean Joe, and Jack Lambert currently sit.

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If AB has a playoff run for the ages, specifically a Super Bowl MVP... Mean Joe will let him choose the appetizer.

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Originally Posted by teegre

If AB has a playoff run for the ages, specifically a Super Bowl MVP... Mean Joe will let him choose the appetizer.

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Mean Joe would jersey swap, A coke for AB's Jersey.

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Originally Posted by teegre

If AB has a playoff run for the ages, specifically a Super Bowl MVP... Mean Joe will let him choose the appetizer.

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Yeah I could see that!:thumbsup: Of course Lambert might still try to steal his lunch money. :lol:

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Originally Posted by zulater

Yeah I could see that!:thumbsup: Of course Lambert might still try to steal his lunch money. :lol:

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Also, there’s no way that Lambert is sharing his dessert... with anyone. :chuckle:

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Originally Posted by teegre

Also, there’s no way that Lambert is sharing his dessert... with anyone. :chuckle:

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Why is it that my idea of a Jack Lambert 'dessert' comes in an ice cold tall boy can?

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Originally Posted by Born2Steel

Why is it that my idea of a Jack Lambert 'dessert' comes in an ice cold tall boy can?

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Add a jaw full of Red Man, and you pretty much nailed it. :lol:

Lotta drops from him last night...very unABlike...

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

Lotta drops from him last night...very unABlike...

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It happens when you miss 2 days of practice.....

IT was also a pretty serious rain most of the game. Many players on both teams had uncharacteristic drops.

Still had a productive day even with a toe injury. Got cheap shorted in the head and still caught tying td

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

Lotta drops from him last night...very unABlike...

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True, you wouldn't have seen that from Jerry Rice.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

IT was also a pretty serious rain most of the game. Many players on both teams had uncharacteristic drops.

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Nonsense. Richard Mann should be given a Ben McAdoo haircut and fired!

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

Lotta drops from him last night...very unABlike...

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Really? One on-target drop is a lot? I guess when that equals the rest of the season's total that's the case. He now has two for the year. Badly thrown balls and pass interference don't count as drops, even though we're used to AB catching them anyway.

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Originally Posted by tube517

Nonsense. Richard Mann should be given a Ben McAdoo haircut and fired!

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A Macadon't?

HOF

So 7 more All Pro seasons for AB and then he can be in the conversation with Jerry Rice ? Makes sense.