Ben Roethlisberger: Not my job to deal with “player issues” like Chase Claypool

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Which I never said it was. Weird, it is almost like you are having an argument with a point that you only think I am making...

As to whose fault? Devin Bush, Joe Schoebert, TJ Watt, Alex Highsmith first and foremost. Mondeaux, Wormley, Adams, and Heyward next. Edmunds, Sutton, and Witherspoon next.

I saw one big run in the first half where Watt crashed hard inside, got washed out of the play and the back went right around his end. Either Watt guessed wrong and gave up edge contain or he was supposed to be backed up by another player and wasn't. I suspect that Watt was itching to make a play and guessed wrong. The Vikings exploited it for a big play of their own.

But...sure...let's keep talking about Claypool and coaching hot takes that appear to ripped wholesale from morning ESPN shows and drive-time sports radio.

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So they were out coached?
Claypool needs to grow up but he has to do that on his own. Nobody can do it for him.

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Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west

He’s right, It’s not Ben’s job to discipline players. It’s Tomlin’s job. Any players disciplining claypool is voluntary. If it’s Cam or Najee, great then that makes Tomlin’s job easier, but ultimately it’s the coaches responsibility to keep guys in line - like the group celebration after the int when they were down three scores….that’s Tomlin’s responsibility to reprimand those guys…it should’ve never happened in the first place but is known Tomlin misses small details like that in his meetings with players

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On the other hand, though ... how many teams can you think of where the franchise QB is NOT one of the team leaders trying to motivate guys or get after them in a productive way? It's pretty unusual, leadership seems to usually go hand in hand with taking a leading role on the field. It's never been his thing and it's unlikely to change now, just odd though.

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Originally Posted by Mach1

So they were out coached?
Claypool needs to grow up but he has to do that on his own. Nobody can do it for him.

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I don't think the coaches implemented some new-fangled defensive scheme of "leave your darn gap" and a pass protection plan of "don't block guys".

I think players failed to execute the basics of NFL football for a half.

Funny how no one talks about the Vikings total failure to come up with answers in the second half. At one point i think they had like 30 yards of offense. That is probably more coaching decisions than Joe Shoebert forgetting how run defense is intended to be played.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Let's be honest about what we saw last night. First...Ben was gritty and gutty all day and even in a losing effort by the team this should burnish his legacy. As should last week.

BUT...he didn't succeed over the middle of the field. See that area between the hash marks and over 4 yards? It was a no go zone again.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/...rger/ROE750381

And throwing deep? Sure they had success...but...I dont' know, man. Unless there was a ton of throws I didn't see in the variety of game cut-ups I saw...he heaved up prayers that a variety of WRs made simply jaw dropping catches on.

The final throw to PF was amazing and vintage Ben.

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What routes were run in the middle of the field and who was open to throw to?

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

What routes were run in the middle of the field and who was open to throw to?

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We.ve had this discussion dozens of times. You know the stats and games as well as I do. You know that I strongly believe the routes are not called because he can't hit them reliably anymore.

For two years the QB has had ZERO success over the middle intermediate. Even with a prized rookie TE. When he does go over the middle to moving targets he often throws behind or high and outside. Both are recipes for INTS and in the past 2 seasons have resulted in multiple INTs. Ben is a QB that plays outside the numbers now. Where inaccurate ball placement doesn't hurt you as bad. And where your WRs can make ridiculous back-shoulder catches to help you out. And that is fine...but lets not pretend the old gunslinger has recaptured his glory years. That is all I am saying.

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Originally Posted by steelreserve

On the other hand, though ... how many teams can you think of where the franchise QB is NOT one of the team leaders trying to motivate guys or get after them in a productive way? It's pretty unusual, leadership seems to usually go hand in hand with taking a leading role on the field. It's never been his thing and it's unlikely to change now, just odd though.

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I wonder is that just Be or is it that he came into a very senior team with lots of leadership and never developed into a leader.



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Would it make everyone happy if you saw Ben screaming at Claypool on the sidelines on national tv? Why does he have to say anything in front of us. His leadership was on display with his attempt to when last night.

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Originally Posted by Hawkman

Would it make everyone happy if you saw Ben screaming at Claypool on the sidelines on national tv? Why does he have to say anything in front of us. His leadership was on display with his attempt to when last night.

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Fwiw , I can't stand seeing Brady scream at his team on the sidelines. I think that shit rarely makes anyone play better. Now, Ray the knife lewis rah rah and Joey the pitbull Porters rah rah gets guys hyped and playing better

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

We.ve had this discussion dozens of times. You know the stats and games as well as I do. You know that I strongly believe the routes are not called because he can't hit them reliably anymore.

For two years the QB has had ZERO success over the middle intermediate. Even with a prized rookie TE. When he does go over the middle to moving targets he often throws behind or high and outside. Both are recipes for INTS and in the past 2 seasons have resulted in multiple INTs. Ben is a QB that plays outside the numbers now. Where inaccurate ball placement doesn't hurt you as bad. And where your WRs can make ridiculous back-shoulder catches to help you out. And that is fine...but lets not pretend the old gunslinger has recaptured his glory years. That is all I am saying.

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He threw plenty of INTs over the middle in his gunslinging days. Just saying.:heh:

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Originally Posted by steelreserve

On the other hand, though ... how many teams can you think of where the franchise QB is NOT one of the team leaders trying to motivate guys or get after them in a productive way? It's pretty unusual, leadership seems to usually go hand in hand with taking a leading role on the field. It's never been his thing and it's unlikely to change now, just odd though.

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there are a lot of QB’s that don’t seem demonstrative on the field. Maybe their leaders behind the scenes (at practice, team meetings…do we know for sure who is a voice in the locker room?) haven’t a few of the young guys described Ben as a great teacher/mentor? That’s a type of leadership. Bradshaw himself wasn’t much of the leader I think your describing (we know who was the leader on that team and it wasn’t the QB). Some guys lead by example - and Ben does that. I’d rather have that then someone like Brister who maybe was more vocal but wasn’t half the QB Ben was.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

I think players failed to execute the basics of NFL football for a half.

Funny how no one talks about the Vikings total failure to come up with answers in the second half. At one point i think they had like 30 yards of offense. That is probably more coaching decisions than Joe Shoebert forgetting how run defense is intended to be played.

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who’s fault is that? The defense and the o line had a total collapse (Bush, Schobert, the front line as a whole) and the coaches are not at fault? Noll always emphasized the basics - just maybe Tomlin and staff are not doing that.

as far as Zimmer, we know he’s a mediocre coach at best. Tomlin is supposed to be this great untouchable coach and we’re debating that.

This is an interesting debate to me. As a youth coach all I do is coach fundamentals. My specific role this past season was OL/DL. Teaching 3and4 point stance, how to leave your stance, staying low, be first to hit the other guy, stuff like that. My kids this time were 5/6 years old and 1st time playing so basic level instruction is the focus. We stay with these kids up to 12. After that they join the school system and should have a pretty good understanding of the basic fundamentals at that point. SO, I do not get into the coaches vs coaches level of football ever. We are all teachers of all kids where I coach. However, I do have rapport with the jr and highschool level coaches and get to keep up with most of these kids through those years. One thing I never see or hear about is coaching players how to not retaliate, when to get out of bounds, when to just slide or go down, it seems these things 'should' be learned while learning the game you're playing. Not saying it's not talked about but it's not a specific point of teaching as a football coach.

As for disciplining players at higher level for not knowing how to 'understand' how to game, I have no experience. I think there has to be different ways for different coaching styles. Is Tomlin a coach that let's the players/team leaders handle that? Only up to a certain point until it becomes a distraction? A coach that keeps the players out of all of that and handles it either personally or with position coaches? I don't know and I guess neither do any of you. What I do know, after all this long winded story, is I haven't seen these issues we're discussing here last for long on any Tomlin team. It's my belief this issue will get handled too. And it will be handled Tomlin's way.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

We.ve had this discussion dozens of times. You know the stats and games as well as I do. You know that I strongly believe the routes are not called because he can't hit them reliably anymore.

For two years the QB has had ZERO success over the middle intermediate. Even with a prized rookie TE. When he does go over the middle to moving targets he often throws behind or high and outside. Both are recipes for INTS and in the past 2 seasons have resulted in multiple INTs. Ben is a QB that plays outside the numbers now. Where inaccurate ball placement doesn't hurt you as bad. And where your WRs can make ridiculous back-shoulder catches to help you out. And that is fine...but lets not pretend the old gunslinger has recaptured his glory years. That is all I am saying.

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But what routes were open in the middle of the field that he missed against the Vikings. Just curious.

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

But what routes were open in the middle of the field that he missed against the Vikings. Just curious.

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They don’t run middle of the field routes because it’s either an incompletion or turnover. See like most of 2020.

Wouldn't you at least run a few to keep them honest in coverage? I think it's way to simple to just say they do not run it. If that's the case it's no wonder they suck. You have to run the routes to make someone pull into that coverage.

Note: I'm a fan who likes to drink beer wand watch Steelers games. At no point have I studied tape or break down plays

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Originally Posted by NCSteeler

Wouldn't you at least run a few to keep them honest in coverage? I think it's way to simple to just say they do not run it. If that's the case it's no wonder they suck. You have to run the routes to make someone pull into that coverage.

Note: I'm a fan who likes to drink beer wand watch Steelers games. At no point have I studied tape or break down plays

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I don't study things either. I know what I see on gamedays and I know what I read. This is from earlier in the season: https://triblive.com/sports/steelers...-of-the-field/

"Roethlisberger has not attempted a pass “between the numbers” more than 16 yards downfield all season. And among the 98 passes he threw the past two weeks, none were more than 12 yards downfield down the middle."

Ben’s arm strength and accuracy was doubted and he’s proved people wrong. He’s hit receivers over the middle with plenty of accuracy as was seen on that last play to PF. I don’t think it’s an arm or accuracy issue. If anything it could be that those long plays over the middle take too long to develop and the line is not reliable enough to keep Ben upright that long. They don’t know how or can’t provide enough protection. For crying out loud, They were letting defenders get to Ben untouched last Thursday a number of times - that’s scheme failure - Klemm has shown very little - just a big disappointment- I hope they don’t bring him or Canada back

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

I don't study things either. I know what I see on gamedays and I know what I read. This is from earlier in the season: https://triblive.com/sports/steelers...-of-the-field/

"Roethlisberger has not attempted a pass “between the numbers” more than 16 yards downfield all season. And among the 98 passes he threw the past two weeks, none were more than 12 yards downfield down the middle."

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhrbdinTleo

^that play too, Ben is not the problem, it’s a shame he’s being used as a scapegoat

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Originally Posted by pczach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhrbdinTleo

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Man what a play. Over the deep middle though. Hahaha

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I am neither making this up, imagining it, or exaggerating the lack of plays over the middle for the 2020-2021 Steelers passing game. Literallly every analysis of the team for two seasons now has looked at this and said: "Well...there's a big glaring problem."

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/10/be...hrough-week-6/

Against the Chargers and the Vikings plays were made down the middle. Also some of the largest deficits and most "preventy" defenses faced this season.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/...ROE750381/2020
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/...ROE750381/2021

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I mean if you all watched Roethlisberger chuck ducks down the sideline and Washington, Claypool, and Johnson make some of the most ridiculous catches in the entire league this season and thought "Yup! This is a high-powered passing attack that can move the ball on anyone, anytime." I have no idea how to respond to that.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

I am neither making this up, imagining it, or exaggerating the lack of plays over the middle for the 2020-2021 Steelers passing game. Literallly every analysis of the team for two seasons now has looked at this and said: "Well...there's a big glaring problem."

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/10/be...hrough-week-6/

Against the Chargers and the Vikings plays were made down the middle. Also some of the largest deficits and most "preventy" defenses faced this season.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/...ROE750381/2020
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/...ROE750381/2021

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I mean if you all watched Roethlisberger chuck ducks down the sideline and Washington, Claypool, and Johnson make some of the most ridiculous catches in the entire league this season and thought "Yup! This is a high-powered passing attack that can move the ball on anyone, anytime." I have no idea how to respond to that.

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I'm not trying to show you up. I know you said you didn't see much of the game. I just wanted to show the great throw deep down the middle of the field to Washington.

That wasn't against prevent. That score with a good amount of time left in the game would have gotten them within a TD if they got the 2-point conversion. He also had a throw within the numbers to Johnson in the first quarter that was about 17 yards downfield. Here's a video of his best throws from this game. The first throw of the video is the other throw between the numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xEDh9ty5-I

I don't think anyone is arguing with you that he doesn't do it a lot. I think these throws show that he is still capable of doing it, and that part of the field should be attacked more.

As far as the throws down the sideline. He seems to be getting more accurate as the season is going on. He is making a conscious effort to not overthrow the receivers and give them a chance to make a play. These are throws that every NFL quarterback makes every game. I don't see that he is throwing lollipops that are lucky to be caught.

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Originally Posted by pczach

I'm not trying to show you up. I know you said you didn't see much of the game. I just wanted to show the great throw deep down the middle of the field to Washington.

That wasn't against prevent. That score with a good amount of time left in the game would have gotten them within a TD if they got the 2-point conversion. He also had a throw within the numbers to Johnson in the first quarter that was about 17 yards downfield. Here's a video of his best throws from this game. The first throw of the video is the other throw between the numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xEDh9ty5-I

I don't think anyone is arguing with you that he doesn't do it a lot. I think these throws show that he is still capable of doing it, and that part of the field should be attacked more.

As far as the throws down the sideline. He seems to be getting more accurate as the season is going on. He is making a conscious effort to not overthrow the receivers and give them a chance to make a play. These are throws that every NFL quarterback makes every game. I don't see that he is throwing lollipops that are lucky to be caught.

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I don’t see it that way at all.

To me it looks like a QB that floats under thrown balls along the sidelines to either have his WR make insane grabs or draw the DPI.

I’ve never argued he can’t occasionally uncork a prime Big Ben throw. Of course he can. But it’s like an aging pitcher. Sure, every so often he can reach back and throw high 90s heat down the heart of the strike zone but mostly he knows he can’t so he locates breaking balls and hopes he can get calls on the edge of the plate.

Just about every great QB spends a season or three doing this. Then they retire.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

They don’t run middle of the field routes because it’s either an incompletion or turnover. See like most of 2020.

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So if the routes aren’t being run, that’s on the OC play design. That’s not on the QB. Even if the QB can’t make the throws, the OC should, at the very least, know to run those routes to keep the defense honest. We’ve seen teams trot out players that are injured to run a decoy route to keep teams honest and guessing. What you are essentially saying is that Matt Canada doesn’t think Ben can complete passes in the middle of the field so they don’t run any routes there?

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

So if the routes aren’t being run, that’s on the OC play design. That’s not on the QB. Even if the QB can’t make the throws, the OC should, at the very least, know to run those routes to keep the defense honest. We’ve seen teams trot out players that are injured to run a decoy route to keep teams honest and guessing. What you are essentially saying is that Matt Canada doesn’t think Ben can complete passes in the middle of the field so they don’t run any routes there?

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Yes. This team has attacked vertical only outside the hashes for three years now.

It’s a turnover avoidance thing.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Yes. This team has attacked vertical only outside the hashes for three years now.

It’s a turnover avoidance thing.

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So it’s more on the coaching staff than the personnel.

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Originally Posted by 86WARD

So it’s more on the coaching staff than the personnel.

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Yes and no. Of course the coaching staff calls the plays. But...I don't ascribed to the "everyone who coaches for the Steelers is dumber than a bag of hammers" theories that appear to be popular across the internet. I think the offensive staff saw the inability of Ben to consistently hit targets over the middle. He, despite flashes in recent games, has not thrown well into tight windows or consistently been on target to targets moving laterally since he returned from the elbow injury. Some feel this lack of precision and placement in pass targeting goes back a season or so prior to the injury as well. I don't know. But I believe they stripped as much of that out of the offense as they could because it was leading to passes behind the moving target or tips that led to INTs. So they vertical element of the Steelers game shifted to the boundary. This allows Ben to put the ball out there with a TON of air under it and allow his guy to try and run under it to make a play. Or he can toss one up and hope his guy can fight through the DB to a back-shoulder throw.

Nothing is helped by Juju getting hurt. He was the "middle of the field guy". Ben would just throw towards him and Juju would make a play on the ball. Similar to how PF has made several catches. I think the team is being super honest about the strength and weaknesses of their roster and making a concerted attempt to call plays that allow them to win and not give the other team a chance to make plays on the ball.