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Ben's contract was eating up the cap space and nobody expected Stephon Tuitt to disappear within a season. They couldn't re-sign Hargrave even if they wanted to. They lost Bud Dupree the next season.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
But yes, major gaffe in hindsight. The Steelers are in this spot because they couldn't or refused to face the inevitable after 2019. Ben was approaching the end and didn't want to face the upcoming rebuild.
I seem to remember that Hargrave wanted to start. And play in a pass rush role. Would he have even signed if they offered? We’re they going to give him Tuitt or Heyward’s spot? Switch to playing more down linemen and take pass rush snaps away from Watt and insert OLB HERE?
Players have a choice as well. Pittsburgh is not a great place to be the #3 pass rushing interior DL.
Usually the Steelers stick with the younger guy and let the vet walk. But nobody thought Tuitt would retire so soon. Shit happens.
:nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by tube517
At the time, Heyward was ranked (on average by various sources) as the #2 D-lineman in the league. Tuitt was ranked #5. Hargrave was #7.
Tough choice… but, it was a numbers game. As you said: if they had known that Tuitt’s brother was going to die, they would have re-signed Hargrave. Stupid Colbert & Tomlin for not foreseeing that death.
sometimes the Band breaks up <see the Beatles>
The Eagles have a real shot at going 16-0. Yes I know "Any Given Sunday" but there schedule is soft as shit the rest of the way:
vs Redskins
@ Colts
vs Packers (they are a mess)
vs Titans (they are starting Malik Willis)
@ Giants (could be tough)
@ Bears
@ Dallas (could be tough)
vs Saints
vs Giants (at home)
The Giants and Cowboys could be tough games but they do look like a complete team and they added on at the trading deadline. Now I said they could go 16-0 but if they run the NFC playoffs they probably are going to have either the Bills or Saints waiting in the Superbowl and at that point all bets are off. I guess I should have said they have a real good chance of being the 2007 Patriots!
Bills - Eagles is destined to happen!!!
Imagine having the 2nd, 5th and 7th best DL in the NFL and finishing 27th in run defense like Tomlin's defense did in 2017.Quote:
Originally Posted by teegre
I'd take Lebeau and Kirschke, Hoke and Keisel.
Not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloydwoodsonjr
I just wish you would take a hike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloydwoodsonjr
Yeah, Tuitt leaving really caused some issues with plans. I am hoping we can keep Ogunjobi and can draft a Cam eventual replacement next draft. If we can at the least go 2 OL and 1 DL in our first 3 picks (and they are all upgrades) I really think this rebuild won’t take so long.Quote:
Originally Posted by teegre
https://media1.giphy.com/media/zZv5R...aXUc/giphy.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler
Simpatico :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotorhead
If their plan was that Heyward and Tuitt were going to play forever, and you don't really need more than two defensive linemen with zero depth, then what the fuck was the Hargrave pick even for in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by teegre
It was, like, easily foreseeable that the age and depth of the DL was going to be a problem really really soon, and we picked a guy at the perfect time to address that, and then let him walk.
It has nothing to do with Tuitt's brother, or not enough ways to get him playing time, or any of the shitty excuses you always hear. Hargrave was not re-signed because of our stupid Dupree boner. We just fucked up really bad, that's all there is to it.
We had one guy who was kicking ass and it was obvious, and one sort of ok guy we were still dicking around with after 5 years, still trying to figure out if he would ever be any good. So what do we do? Overpay to dick around with the loser for one more year, and end up losing both.
Like, it's not even possible to fuck up that situation any worse than that. I don't know why people are still making excuses for it, it's embarrassing. It wasn't a shrewd and patient move that backfired because of bad luck, or even a tough business calculation we had to make to cut our losses. It was just a fucking stupid move. Sticking with another bum for too long out of stubbornness or being unwilling to give up om the sunk cost.
Both Heyward and Tuitt were better than Hargrave.
While some will disagree with that assessment, all available evidence was that both were superior players entering their primes or in it.
Even as Hargrave was moved into a pass rushing and starting role in Philly, his stats just don’t stack up as well.
I liked Hargrave. A lot. Still do. But if you said pick 2 of these 3; I’d pick Heyward and Tuitt 100 out of 100 times. Don’t even have to think about it.
That's great, but it wasn't the question. Hargrave or Dupree was the choice. And our answer was d) lose both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
Like I said at the start, if our plan was always to stick with Heyward and Tuitt and there was no room for a third guy who was any good, what the fuck were we even doing? That was a bad pick then.
The apologists love to say "but how could we have known Tuitt would be gone!" Well guess what, the rest of us were saying "We'd better keep this guy since the Heyward/Tuitt situation looks pretty shaky due to age and injury." And then that's exactly what happened.
The team should not be let off the hook because "how could they know," they should be condemned for not being aware. Because plenty of us saw it coming. "How could they know" is not really a workable excuse, it's just re-stating how they fucked up.
There’s the salary cap issue and the player choice issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelreserve
The cap made the Steelers chose a starter over a role player.
And role in the defense made the player not consider resigning regardless of $$$.
And what team passes on a player because they might not be able to sign him after their rookie deal expires?
I think you’re letting your personal distaste for Dupree skew your perception of the situation.
As long as Tuitt and Heyward were on the roster there wasn’t a path to the snaps and role Hargrave wanted. And if they never paid Dupree another nickel after 2019, I do not believe they would’ve paid Hargrave what he wanted.
The Steelers have always had a strict positional and roster salary hierarchy. They paid Heyward and Tuitt. They just weren’t going to pay a 3rd big salary along the DL.
They “failed” to see that Hargrave was a future starter.
Not on the Steelers he wasn’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
He would’ve been a future starter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
They’re playing a lot of 2 linemen and then others in the front 7. Tuitt and Heyward were supposed to be those starters. That leaves like 30 percent of the defense snaps for the third DL.Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
That was just never going to be a 12+ million a year player on this defense.
Lacking a wizard to see the future and Tuitt retiring and Alualu disintegrating there wasn’t a clear path to starter level snaps for a third guy.
What am I missing?
They were playing those two man fronts because of injury.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojouw
My memory is always a suspicious actor. But I seem to remember there being a great deal of:Quote:
Originally Posted by 86WARD
Tuitt-Heyward
Watt-Bush-VW-Dupree + Hilton
That always seemed like a planned alignment.
Again, I am often guilty of remembering things incorrectly and otherwise being ignorant of what the actual information was but I seem to remember that there simply wasn't a path to Hargrave playing the # of snaps and the role he wanted in Pittsburgh. Assuming that is "true", that is why I always kind of rejected the notion that it was a choice between Hargrave and Dupree. I understand the #'s were similar cap wise, but I just never thought Hargrave would sign in Pittsburgh while Tuitt and Heyward still existed and the Steelers wanted to play "sub-package" football.
Again...I might be just not remembering the sequence of events and information properly. But I did find this: https://steelersdepot.com/2020/01/st...son-in-review/
And over 68% of the team's defensive snaps was in a less than 3 DL formation. And 2019 was a darn good defense. So that was just going to validate the team's viewpoint that 3+ DL packages were not the direction to take.