Mayock: Boise State ILB Leighton Vander Esch Would Be ‘Great Fit’ For Steelers

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Originally Posted by teegre

Neither of those times concern me.

The drill I want to see is the 3-cone drill. Getting under 7.0 in that drill is far more important.

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Not concerned about LVE's time as that was around where it was expected. I thought Leonard would run faster, though he isn't doing position drills so he may have pulled something.

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On position drills I think he did well overall. Feet were a little choppy moving laterally one drill, but got nice depth dropping back into coverage

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Originally Posted by st33lersguy

Ran an unofficial 4.66

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Leonard ran 4.70 a little concerning

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Leonard ran 4.70 a little concerning

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Lve official 40 4.65. Leonard same as unofficial

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Originally Posted by st33lersguy

Not concerned about LVE's time as that was around where it was expected. I thought Leonard would run faster, though he isn't doing position drills so he may have pulled something.

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On position drills I think he did well overall. Feet were a little choppy moving laterally one drill, but got nice depth dropping back into coverage

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Thanks for the update.

His coverage skills are probably his biggest asset.

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Originally Posted by teegre

Neither of those times concern me.

The drill I want to see is the 3-cone drill. Getting under 7.0 in that drill is far more important.

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Here is what is soooooooooooo ridiculous.

Look at Shazier's pro day and combine #'s - https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/ryan-shazier. They are simply the #'s of an alien being from another planet. Not really relevant comparisons for a ILB prospect.

4.7 and 4.6 are a bit disappointing, but most of the "name" prospects in this class ran 4.5-4.6. So it is what it is...

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Here is what is soooooooooooo ridiculous.

Look at Shazier's pro day and combine #'s - https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/ryan-shazier. They are simply the #'s of an alien being from another planet. Not really relevant comparisons for a ILB prospect.

4.7 and 4.6 are a bit disappointing, but most of the "name" prospects in this class ran 4.5-4.6. So it is what it is...

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He measured at 6'4" and 256lbs. Once he's down to 235-245lbs and gets into the strength program, he should get a little bit faster than his combine numbers.
I'm still keeping an eye on Jerome baker as well. Shaq Griffen is this year's ILB/Safety hybrid to watch.

Here’s an interesting comparison:

DRILL: Watt - LVE
vertical: 37 - 39.5
broad: 128 - 124
three-cone: 6.79 - 6.88
short shuttle: 4.13 - 4.15
height: 6’2” - 6’4”
weight: 252 - 256

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Originally Posted by teegre

Here’s an interesting comparison:

DRILL: Watt - LVE
vertical: 37 - 39.5
broad: 128 - 124
three-cone: 6.79 - 6.88
short shuttle: 4.13 - 4.15
height: 6’2” - 6’4”
weight: 252 - 256

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Makes me wonder about a question I asked in another thread. Who is the best ILB right now? Likely the guy from Georgia and then the kid from 'Bama. Who is the better backer in 3 years? Likely still the dude from Georgia, but does LVE overtake the 'Bama guy by then?

And what about Malik Jefferson? Had an amazing combine -- just doesn't have the same level of game tape laid down...

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Makes me wonder about a question I asked in another thread. Who is the best ILB right now? Likely the guy from Georgia and then the kid from 'Bama. Who is the better backer in 3 years? Likely still the dude from Georgia, but does LVE overtake the 'Bama guy by then?

And what about Malik Jefferson? Had an amazing combine -- just doesn't have the same level of game tape laid down...

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I think you’re right. Roquan is and will be the best ILB in this draft. Rashaan is the second-best right now, but I see Leighton surpassing him.

The wild cards are Tremaine & Malik. Tremaine is less of a risk; he’s just young. But, as we discussed elsewhere, Malik might just not be very smart (but, who actually knows).

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Originally Posted by teegre

I think you’re right. Roquan is and will be the best ILB in this draft. Rashaan is the second-best right now, but I see Leighton surpassing him.

The wild cards are Tremaine & Malik. Tremaine is less of a risk; he’s just young. But, as we discussed elsewhere, Malik might just not be very smart (but, who actually knows).

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Two other wildcards are Leonard and Lorenzo Carter. Film for both looks good and Carter had a darn good combine. I wonder if you could get yourself Lawrence Timmons 2.0 if you moved Carter inside?

Plus, here is a name that we just haven't talked about. And I bet you can get him for a song - Jack Cichy LB Wisconsin. Two years ago, kid just ripped through the Big 10 like it wasn't even hard. Then had a pec and an ACL tear. But still...Cichy in the 7th? Worst case - he just never makes it back and you cut him. Best case, you have Jewell at a bargain price.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Two other wildcards are Leonard and Lorenzo Carter. Film for both looks good and Carter had a darn good combine. I wonder if you could get yourself Lawrence Timmons 2.0 if you moved Carter inside?

Plus, here is a name that we just haven't talked about. And I bet you can get him for a song - Jack Cichy LB Wisconsin. Two years ago, kid just ripped through the Big 10 like it wasn't even hard. Then had a pec and an ACL tear. But still...Cichy in the 7th? Worst case - he just never makes it back and you cut him. Best case, you have Jewell at a bargain price.

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Darius had a great Senior Bowl; he seemed to make EVERY tackle. Lorenzo looks a lot like Leonard Floyd.

Great call. Jack Cichy (much like Shaun Dion Hamilton) could be a steal for a team willing to spend a Day 3 pick on him.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Two other wildcards are Leonard and Lorenzo Carter. Film for both looks good and Carter had a darn good combine. I wonder if you could get yourself Lawrence Timmons 2.0 if you moved Carter inside?

Plus, here is a name that we just haven't talked about. And I bet you can get him for a song - Jack Cichy LB Wisconsin. Two years ago, kid just ripped through the Big 10 like it wasn't even hard. Then had a pec and an ACL tear. But still...Cichy in the 7th? Worst case - he just never makes it back and you cut him. Best case, you have Jewell at a bargain price.

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I second that on Cichy. NFL is still sleeping on Badger defenders

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Originally Posted by Psycho Ward 86

I second that on Cichy. NFL is still sleeping on Badger defenders

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Leon Jacobs had a hell of a combine. Not sure I see him as a legit edge rusher, but again what about kicking him inside at the pro level? I seem to remember him making more than a few plays in coverage this past season...but maybe my memory is fuzzier than usual tonight!

Combine standout Shaquem Griffin fits Steelers' need for speed

Jeremy Fowler
ESPN Staff Writer

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/p...haquem-griffin

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Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler

Combine standout Shaquem Griffin fits Steelers' need for speed

Jeremy Fowler
ESPN Staff Writer

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/p...haquem-griffin

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I absolutely love this kid's story. It is simply amazing. He wrote a great piece in the Player's Tribune prior to the combine detailing his struggles and challenges. Offered insight into how great a person and a hard worker the guy truly is. All that being said -- how good is Griffen at actually making plays? His stat line was productive in college, but who did they play? One "elite" team in Auburn for their bowl game. Griffin had 6 tackles and 1.5 sacks. So maybe it is legit?

Anyone know anything about this kid?

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Originally Posted by teegre

Darius had a great Senior Bowl; he seemed to make EVERY tackle. Lorenzo looks a lot like Leonard Floyd.

Great call. Jack Cichy (much like Shaun Dion Hamilton) could be a steal for a team willing to spend a Day 3 pick on him.

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I watched VanderEsch game vs BYU and he looks like a long strider, feet are not as quick and change of direction/acceleration not what I would like to see at ILB with Steelers. I honestly think Vince Williams is a quicker ILB than him from what is on tape. Maybe its the 250LBS, but what is his playing weight going to be? He looked very fluid in his combine field drills and is a solid athlete, but the tape isn't that impressive IMO.

Darius Leonard on the other hand seems quicker to the ball, accelerates once he makes his read, has proven to be productive and like you say had a great week at the Senior Bowl against other future NFL players. If the Steelers pass on Vander Esch I would not be heartbroken. If they pick him, they must have some kind of developmental plan with him for sure.

Can Leonard play ILB in the NFL at 213lbs? Or is that a typo on the NFL Combine page?

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Originally Posted by Steeldude

Can Leonard play ILB in the NFL at 213lbs? Or is that a typo on the NFL Combine page?

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https://www.nfl.com/prospects/darius...a-4784aff66bfa

This indicates he was up to 234 over the combine. That oughta be big enough if he can maintain quickness.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/darius...a-4784aff66bfa

This indicates he was up to 234 over the combine. That oughta be big enough if he can maintain quickness.

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Yeah and his Senior Bowl stat was 6'2" 229Lbs. Below is LVE vs Wyoming and if somebody can show me something really impressive, please do. Vander Esch is in coverage a lot, but when he does come up to support run, it looks as if he gets engulfed by the O lineman a lot and seems to lumber IMO. The 2:00 minute mark, he misses a tackle in space on Josh Allen. I know that Allen is a good athlete, but if he cant finish the tackle against an athletic QB in space, I really don't expect much against an NFL RB.

Maybe I need to see the tape that Mayock is looking at, because he is starting to look like a workout warrior to me from the BYU and Wyoming games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SLLvxiGFhs

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

I watched VanderEsch game vs BYU and he looks like a long strider, feet are not as quick and change of direction/acceleration not what I would like to see at ILB with Steelers. I honestly think Vince Williams is a quicker ILB than him from what is on tape. Maybe its the 250LBS, but what is his playing weight going to be? He looked very fluid in his combine field drills and is a solid athlete, but the tape isn't that impressive IMO.

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SteelersCanada agrees with you. :wink02:

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Originally Posted by teegre

SteelersCanada agrees with you. :wink02:

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OK, :noidea:

I know we didn't evaluate Demarcus Van Dyke the same way. I thought Javon Kearse was just a tweener, Jarvis Jones was all hustle and no speed or moves and Mantei T'eo was all hype, so my LB evaluation is all over the place. I'm just not getting the hype with LVE. On paper he's a 1st round talent, on tape he is a 3rd round project.

2018 NFL Draft Rumors

by Walter Football

28. Pittsburgh Steelers:

3/4: The Packers like Leighton Vander Esch, and he won't last beyond the Steelers. - Tony Pauline, DraftAnalyst.com
Pauline is also reporting that Vander Esch has been interviewing extremely well in Indianapolis. His stock is definitely pointing up. -Walter

2/27: "I'm told the Steelers already have started doing their draft due diligence on Boise State LB Leighton Vander Esch, whom analysts are pegging to the Steelers at No. 28 overall." - Jeremy Fowler, ESPN
Vander Esch is a late first-round prospect, so he would make sense for the Steelers at No. 28, as Pittsburgh needs to fill Ryan Shazier's void. -Walter

http://walterfootball.com/nflrumors/teamdraft/17-32

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

Yeah and his Senior Bowl stat was 6'2" 229Lbs. Below is LVE vs Wyoming and if somebody can show me something really impressive, please do. Vander Esch is in coverage a lot, but when he does come up to support run, it looks as if he gets engulfed by the O lineman a lot and seems to lumber IMO. The 2:00 minute mark, he misses a tackle in space on Josh Allen. I know that Allen is a good athlete, but if he cant finish the tackle against an athletic QB in space, I really don't expect much against an NFL RB.

Maybe I need to see the tape that Mayock is looking at, because he is starting to look like a workout warrior to me from the BYU and Wyoming games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SLLvxiGFhs

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Well if he misses tackles he should fit right in. Haha

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Originally Posted by Steeldude

Well if he misses tackles he should fit right in. Haha

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Yeah, when he gets there he makes the tackle, but getting juked in the open field by a 247 lb QB is pretty JV and not enough Varsity IMO.

Watch these "official Boise St Highlights" of him. He is good in coverage, but the tackles he makes are well beyond the LOS. The sacks he gets are either uncontested or because they have a 200lb RB on him that cant block. IMO his pass defense is the best part of his game, but his film on tackling in the run game is no better than Sean Spence. I'm sure somebody will draft him high, but I just don't see it in the videos that I watched. Maybe I didn't see his good games :noidea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uohb0_zIEA

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

Yeah and his Senior Bowl stat was 6'2" 229Lbs. Below is LVE vs Wyoming and if somebody can show me something really impressive, please do. Vander Esch is in coverage a lot, but when he does come up to support run, it looks as if he gets engulfed by the O lineman a lot and seems to lumber IMO. The 2:00 minute mark, he misses a tackle in space on Josh Allen. I know that Allen is a good athlete, but if he cant finish the tackle against an athletic QB in space, I really don't expect much against an NFL RB.

Maybe I need to see the tape that Mayock is looking at, because he is starting to look like a workout warrior to me from the BYU and Wyoming games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SLLvxiGFhs

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That is not an impressive series of snaps. But there are positives there.

1. He does look "lumbering" at points. I think it is because he is so new to the position and lacks the technical details, so its all athletic ability and very little instincts and recognition. Moves like a player who doesn't trust what he is seeing and what his brain is telling him. Very mechanical - leads to choppy steps rather than just getting out there, picking a direction, and getting to a spot. You can see in a few plays where he just decides to turn and go and he looks far more fluid. So LVE clearly can move very well, he just looks like he doesn't always trust things. So Raw. Very Raw?

By the Bowl Game, Wyoming was about mid-season, LVE looks a bit more fluid and is demonstrating more of an ability to slide across the face of OL to slip blocks - https://youtu.be/9V8dZI_HZX8. While that is still not 9 minutes of domination or anything, it does show a player who looks for decisive and "playmakey" than in the Wyoming film. But, man alive, someone needs to teach this kid that at 6'4" or whatever, he has got to come into tackles and blocks lower. Leverage young man, leverage.

I'm not a buyer yet either, but if Teegre is gonna make Watt comparisons, I'm at least looking in the window. :chuckle:

I think Evans is way smoother... Gun to my head, I'm still taking him as the rd1 LB if available.

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Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson

Yeah, when he gets there he makes the tackle, but getting juked in the open field by a 247 lb QB is pretty JV and not enough Varsity IMO.

Watch these "official Boise St Highlights" of him. He is good in coverage, but the tackles he makes are well beyond the LOS. The sacks he gets are either uncontested or because they have a 200lb RB on him that cant block. IMO his pass defense is the best part of his game, but his film on tackling in the run game is no better than Sean Spence. I'm sure somebody will draft him high, but I just don't see it in the videos that I watched. Maybe I didn't see his good games :noidea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uohb0_zIEA

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I think with LVE in comparison to Evans or Smith, what you are rolling the dice on is what is he as a player in year 2-5 of his rookie deal? Because he certainly will not have the immediate impact of either of those 2. I suspect many teams see his speed and length roaming the middle of the field and they are picturing a player that in a base defense can move with TEs down the seam, maybe a slot WR or two, definitely most RBs, etc. This then allows teams to play more base rather than sub packages. My feeling is that teams are gambling on his raw athletic ability and hoping they can mold him in to what they need.

If I learned anything from last season, it is the NFL is all about stressing defenses horizontally right now. Spread teams out and pull formations apart until something breaks. The only counter that teams seem to have right now is to collect as many rangy athletes at the LB level as they can and hope for the best. I think most NFL teams are willing to trade the ability to take on blocks, breakdown and fill holes around the LOS for the ability to move well in space, make plays on the ball, and turn and run with the ridiculous athletes that offenses are turning loose at the short to intermediate levels of the defense. It isn't so much that teams don't see a value to taking on blockers or excellent run fits, but more that they are hoping they can teach a good athlete to do those things, while they can't teach a guy like Matakevich to be taller and faster.

Are they right? Who knows. But I do know that if the Steelers want LVE, it has to be in the first round. While he may be a "reach" there, he certainly will not be on the board at their 2nd round pick. I am still hoping for a trade back into the top of the 2nd. Say the Giants take Chubb second over all and then trade back with the Steelers to get Mason Rudolph or something...

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

That is not an impressive series of snaps. But there are positives there.

1. He does look "lumbering" at points. I think it is because he is so new to the position and lacks the technical details, so its all athletic ability and very little instincts and recognition. Moves like a player who doesn't trust what he is seeing and what his brain is telling him. Very mechanical - leads to choppy steps rather than just getting out there, picking a direction, and getting to a spot. You can see in a few plays where he just decides to turn and go and he looks far more fluid. So LVE clearly can move very well, he just looks like he doesn't always trust things. So Raw. Very Raw?

By the Bowl Game, Wyoming was about mid-season, LVE looks a bit more fluid and is demonstrating more of an ability to slide across the face of OL to slip blocks - https://youtu.be/9V8dZI_HZX8. While that is still not 9 minutes of domination or anything, it does show a player who looks for decisive and "playmakey" than in the Wyoming film. But, man alive, someone needs to teach this kid that at 6'4" or whatever, he has got to come into tackles and blocks lower. Leverage young man, leverage.

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Thanks for sharing the link. Have a look at the 3:50 mark and there is a play run to the defensive right edge. LVE isn't able to get off the block and seems a bit slow to flow and only gets an arm on the ballcarrier.

Last season after Shazier goes down, it seemed like teams ran off tackle well and the Steeler ILB's were not able to get to the edges in order to make tackle in the run game. The thing I see is the Steelers need somebody that is going to be able to get to the edge and make that tackle. Maybe he is that guy in 2-5 years like you mention. The tape just isn't impressive to me.

That being said, I wonder if Josey Jewell ends up in the 3rd-5th round. That kid's tape is nice, but still don't think he is the guy with speed to get to the edge either. I love the Sean Lee comparisons that Jewell gets.

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Originally Posted by SteelMember

I'm not a buyer yet either, but if Teegre is gonna make Watt comparisons, I'm at least looking in the window. :chuckle:

I think Evans is way smoother... Gun to my head, I'm still taking him as the rd1 LB if available.

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For 2018 & 2019... Evans is indeed the better ILB.
For 2020 & beyond... I see LVE surpassing Evans.

Evans = Mosley
LVE = Shazier

As El Gonzo said: LVE’s strength is dropping into coverage, which is why (IMO) he’s a great fit in Butler’s defense. As far as the sacks go, LVE is very similar to Watt & VW in that regard: all three struggle to get sacks on their own accord, but when the scheme affords them an open lane (a dong sack), they certainly take full advantage of it.

One more thing, I saw a cool diagram comparing Watt to LVE, and Evans to LVE. It’s those Combine pizza chart things. anyway, Watt & LVE looked almost identical... like an almost full umbrella. Whereas, Evans (surprisingly) looked a lot like a starfish. Again, Evans is great, but he’s about maxed out.

SUMMATION:
Evans has a higher floor, but also a lower ceiling. Evans low & his high are about (again) equivolent to Mosley.

LVE has a lower floor (Vince Williams), but also a higher ceiling (Brian Urlacher).

Evans is almost 100% guaranteed to be very, very good. Whereas, LVE could be a “bust” (if you can call VW a bust) or he could be a HOFer.

Okay, Teegre, you asked for it. You call 'em pizza graphs (which I like way too much) and I call 'em spider graphs...but they are finally here!! I'm reworking this from another post in the draft section...

So start with this -- https://www.mockdraftable.com/player...r?position=ATH -- that is what the Steelers are trying to replace. Remember that these graphs are structured not on position, but on ALL draftable players. So, in case anyone was confused, Ryan Shazier was basically an alien being.

Look at the two most popular picks for ILB in the first round:

1. Rashaan Evans -- https://www.mockdraftable.com/player...s?position=ATH -- short and sweet, Evans is not an explosive athlete. Can he do better at a pro day or later individual workout? If not, he does not fit with the recent trends in Steelers picks. Wanna guess who he does pizza graph like -- https://www.mockdraftable.com/player...s?position=ATH -- I mean Jones is far far worse, but still...

2. Now let's look at LVE -- https://www.mockdraftable.com/player...h?position=ATH -- again we see an athlete not quite in Shazier's tier but almost a clone of TJ Watt -- https://www.mockdraftable.com/player...t?position=ATH

I suspect that the Steelers are looking for someone like Timmons -- https://www.mockdraftable.com/player...s?position=ATH -- as a baseline and Shazier as an upper limit.

An outside the box solution -- assuming the kid is willing to make the switch and I suspect that if that is a path to a first round selection the answer is yes -- Lorenzo Carter -- https://www.mockdraftable.com/player...r?position=ATH

Now of course, all of this discounts the points/perspective that El-Gonzo Jackson was bringing up before. Can any of these kids actually play ball?

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Okay, Teegre, you asked for it. You call 'em pizza graphs (which I like way too much) and I call 'em spider graphs...but they are finally here!! I'm reworking this from another post in the draft section...


Now of course, all of this discounts the points/perspective that El-Gonzo Jackson was bringing up before. Can any of these kids actually play ball?

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YES!!! Those are the things that I was talking about. Great minds... :wink02:

Question:
Are pizza-spiders distant relatives of snake-clowns??? #legobatman



El Gonzo brings up valid concerns. Tape doesn’t lie. But, at the same time, what I see in LVE is eerily similar to what I saw in Watt: a flawed linebacker who is still very raw and has a ton of potential.