Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
i dont think you guys really read my post closely. he can play out his contract and play well and thats still cause for concern.
There are ZERO non-special teams players that have made it to age 38 in the league right now, which is where Ben will be when his contract expires. Do you guys realize how small of a window that is? expect to waste away in the futility of the 80's-90's in 4 years. If you have a solid concept of time, that should make you worry if your early round picks may take years and years to play to their draft pedigree.
"Oh but Ben's so tough"...You guys have any idea how many tough players are in this league? Your expectations aren't realistic by any metric. I would gladly pick players with higher floors but lower ceilings and are capable of plugging and playing over the opposite for the next couple years. i wont care if it hurts us down the road because at best case scenario we'll just field teams that flirt with the playoffs/tease superbowl run capabilities but ultimately fall flat
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
steelreserve
Maybe he actually enjoys playing football?
So did Heath Miller.
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho Ward 86
There are ZERO non-special teams players that have made it to age 38 in the league right now, which is where Ben will be when his contract expires.
Brady is 38 and will be 39 when the football season starts.
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
So now I am really confused. The roughly 2006-2012 Steelers sorta kinda did the "go all in thing" and people crushed them for it. They wrecked the cap. They took the wrong players in the draft - or reached at best.
Now they do sorta, kinda the opposite - attempt to get younger, cheaper, and more talented and it isn't the right move because they are close to a SB appearance in many folks' eyes?
Which is it that we, as fans, want? Cap flexibility and the consistent drafting of the "best" player or going all in every cycle to win a championship?
Maybe, I'm mixing things up here and not really hearing what folks are trying to say. But I honestly do not understand what it is, short of a SB every season, that people want?
Jarvis Jones is who you get in the draft when you follow the "What do we need and who can step in from Day 1 and not screw it up because we need to try and go to another SB RIGHT NOW!". In direct contrast, Ryan Shazier is who you get when you stay true to the "who is the most impactful player left on the board."
What am I missing?
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelerFanInStl
Brady is 38 and will be 39 when the football season starts.
And Drew Brees is 37 I think.
Peyton Manning had 55 TD, 2 years after his neck surgery and the reason why Manning has not been the same in his last two years,he had several injuries in his body.
Brett Favre had a great year in 2009 with the Vikings but in 2010 he was not healthy because of the game against the Saints the year before.
Several QB had several very good seasons at the age of 35 or older and I'm confident this will be the case for Ben if he has no serious injuries.
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mojouw
So now I am really confused. The roughly 2006-2012 Steelers sorta kinda did the "go all in thing" and people crushed them for it. They wrecked the cap. They took the wrong players in the draft - or reached at best.
Now they do sorta, kinda the opposite - attempt to get younger, cheaper, and more talented and it isn't the right move because they are close to a SB appearance in many folks' eyes?
Which is it that we, as fans, want? Cap flexibility and the consistent drafting of the "best" player or going all in every cycle to win a championship?
Maybe, I'm mixing things up here and not really hearing what folks are trying to say. But I honestly do not understand what it is, short of a SB every season, that people want?
Jarvis Jones is who you get in the draft when you follow the "What do we need and who can step in from Day 1 and not screw it up because we need to try and go to another SB RIGHT NOW!". In direct contrast, Ryan Shazier is who you get when you stay true to the "who is the most impactful player left on the board."
What am I missing?
Ben was much younger back then. And were still very much cap strapped right now. What i want is early round picks that have a high floor and can be plug and play until Ben is done (sure, we'll have some exceptions here and there because we wouldnt want to talk in absolutes). I dont feel like thats crazy. With that mentality at cornerback in this draft for example, we would have ended up with William Jackson if the bengals didnt throw a massive draft curveball, or Mackensie Alexander. And its not like guys like Alexander have a small ceiling either. The guy has only played 2 seasons of college ball and he plays with polish.
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
polamalubeast
And Drew Brees is 37 I think.
Peyton Manning had 55 TD, 2 years after his neck surgery and the reason why Manning has not been the same in his last two years,he had several injuries in his body.
Brett Favre had a great year in 2009 with the Vikings but in 2010 he was not healthy because of the game against the Saints the year before.
Several QB had several very good seasons at the age of 35 or older and I'm confident this will be the case for Ben if he has no serious injuries.
Again, the emphasize lies not only in "can Ben play well at his old age" but also "can he play at age X at all?"
I feel like some people talk about Ben like he's going to play like a superbowl-winning caliber QB at age 40+ and thats just not pragmatic. All the cards could fall with an immense amount of luck and Ben would in all likelihood still not be able to pull it off. The qb's you named have taken waaaay less of a beating than Ben. And Favre is the ultimate football ironman, 297 consecutive starts. Its crazy to use him as a barometer for expectations. Ben has played 8 less seasons than him and he has still missed way more games than him
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Again, the emphasize lies not only in "can Ben play well at his old age" but also "can he play at age X at all?"
He can,but we will see.
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
steelreserve
So no, it's not being spoiled-Steelers-fan, omg-sky-is-falling-cat-picture to worry if the rookies aren't at least showing some signs of life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...ckenlittle.jpg
:chuckle:
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelerFanInStl
Brady is 38 and will be 39 when the football season starts.
That just validates my point. There is a whopping single player in the NFL playing at that age meaning its realistic for Ben to be done by then. People seem to think 4-5 years is some kind of eternity. I wonder if people were like this when Bradshaw was getting old.
Are you prepared to bide time grooming players during several of those years while our window closes?
- - - Updated - - -
Quote:
Originally Posted by
polamalubeast
He can,but we will see.
how long would that be? Can we all agree 38 is a realistic age for Ben to be about done based on the ages of players around the league, the injuries he has sustained, and his increasing sense of concern about his health now that he has a family?
Thats 4 years guys...why is it so weird to want a good player with polish like Mackensie Alexander over a sloppy one like Artie Burns who we likely wont see bloom into a really good one until a couple years into that 4 years?
i mean the guy played in a cornerback ROTATION for crying out loud...http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/05...ng-time-miami/
65% of the defensive snaps. Does that sound like a 1st round pick to you?
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho Ward 86
That just validates my point. There is a whopping single player in the NFL playing at that age meaning its realistic for Ben to be done by then. People seem to think 4-5 years is some kind of eternity. I wonder if people were like this when Bradshaw was getting old.
Are you prepared to bide time grooming players during several of those years while our window closes?
The rules have now changed and several rules protects the QB.
Carson Palmer is a another example...Serious injury in 2014 and in 2015 at 35 years old,Palmer has an unbelievable season.
I not understand why you think it is not realistic to think that Roethlisberger can at least play well for the rest of his contract.
- - - Updated - - -
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho Ward 86
how long would that be? Can we all agree 38 is a realistic age for Ben to be about done based on the ages of players around the league, the injuries he has sustained, and his increasing sense of concern about his health now that he has a family?
Thats 4 years guys...why is it so weird to want a good player with polish like Mackensie Alexander over a sloppy one like Artie Burns who we likely wont see bloom into a really good one until a couple years into that 4 years?
i mean the guy played in a cornerback ROTATION for crying out loud...
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/05...ng-time-miami/
65% of the defensive snaps. Does that sound like a 1st round pick to you?
The only thing I have to say for Burns, if Burns is not good in its first 3 years, it would be a big disappointment but I'm sure the steelers think he can be good in the near future
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
polamalubeast
The rules have now changed and several rules protects the QB.
Carson Palmer is a another example...Serious injury in 2014 and in 2015 at 35 years old,Palmer has an unbelievable season.
I not understand why you think it is not realistic to think that Roethlisberger can at least play well for the rest of his contract.
I do think its realistic for him to play the length of his contract. I just think its ridiculous to take it for granted. Its still equally realistic to believe Ben wont finish/wont be effective through the length of his contract. How many players in the league are 38 again? The rules dont matter. Every Steelers fan knows Ben doesnt get the calls Brady or Manning does. Even then, Ben has taken so much more damage than any of those guys, and ironically, even if our Oline improving the past 3 seasons, Ben has been missing games and chunks of games. Now I know what you're thinking "Oh but his injuries were just freak accidents," He had an awful lot of freak accidents: 1st his knee, then his foot, then a concussion, then his shoulder. That just validates my point that the length of his career shouldnt be taken for granted. Look what happens to him even with the rules and a strong Oline. '
All of this just screams common sense to me. What am I missing here
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Roethlisberger was very unlucky last year.....He was healthy in 2013 and 2014 .....
In the players close to 38 years old who are still productive....Palmer,Romo,Brees,Brady,Eli,Rivers.. ...
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho Ward 86
That just validates my point.
No, I was proving you wrong. You said that there were ZERO.
Will Ben still be playing at that age? Personally, I don't think he will. On that, I agree with you. Not necessarily because he can't but because he chooses not to. I believe that this is his last contract.
Re: The First Round and Determining the "Best" Prospect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelerFanInStl
No, I was proving you wrong. You said that there were ZERO.
Will Ben still be playing at that age? Personally, I don't think he will. On that, I agree with you. Not necessarily because he can't but because he chooses not to. I believe that this is his last contract.
putting the numbers out there for the number of players age 38 and over in the league (and by position) was clearly meant to demonstrate what kind of longevity is realistic in an NFL player. By emphasizing that a whopping single player, a whiny QB who gets every call to protect him, is the sole non-special teams player not named James Harrison to make it to age 38 is just reinforcing the point that people take Ben's longevity for granted.
If were just sitting around drafting kids in the early rounds that take 2-3 years to be major contributors, where does that put us in terms of helping the team make the superbowl? not in a good place, because now your window is most likely about a year or 2 from shutting down completely by the time they can help us. i would love to eat my words here, but in order for that to happen, not only would we have to win more superbowls with Ben at the helm, we would have to do it without the most recent draft picks being major contributors on the team. I like our chances to win it all every year, but doing that is hard. Period. So I like seeing our odds increased with mostly plug and play players vs. developmental projects in the early rounds
