Printable View
It was an attempt at humor using the tired "He's a secret Muslim/communist" rhetoric after you mentioned us protecting Japan from China and N Korea (both communist countries)Quote:
Originally Posted by zulater
I voted for the man, so I'm not disrespecting him at all...just the people who use that ridiculous statement.
China is still communist in an economic sense? News to me. Totalitarian yes, and hostile to democratic nations, yes as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM229
Really? You're going to pick apart an explanation for a joke? Let me rephrase then:Quote:
Originally Posted by zulater
It was an attempt at humor using the tired "He's a secret Muslim/communist" rhetoric after you mentioned us protecting Japan from China and N Korea (both communist countries at the time)
I don't know what to tell you. Being a white, middle-aged man myself, I don't have too many issues with my own demographic. I've made it abundantly clear where my ire is pointed: towards overly large concentrations of power and wealth. In today's world, it's just a fact that "middle aged white conservative men" are disproportionately represented there (as are middle-aged Japanese conservative men, for the record).Quote:
Originally Posted by zulater
But of course this thread is not about me, so let's keep it on track. [There is a thread about me in the Soapbox, and if you feel you must take a swipe, feel free] The question is whether the Muslim community of Manhattan has a right to build this center (they clearly do) and whether or not this is just the next step in some nefarious Islamist plan to "infiltrate [our] country... and hide amongst [our] people in order to propagate more attacks".
It clearly is not an insidious plot... Or is it...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQVfQCpYocQ
Having the right to do something, and it being a good or sensible idea aren't always a hand and glove thing ric. Yes they have the right, but when you say it out loud, " huge new Mosque near ground zero" it just doesn't have a good ring. You know it's going to create strife and make people that lost loved ones that day uncomfortable. There's other places to build it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardisimo
I don't want to be lumped in with those that carry those banners. If your attempt was at humor, fine I apoligize, but if you were trying to lump me in with that crowd through humor then I'm just letting you know I don't stand with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM229
I voted against Obama once already, and I'll vote against him again, given the chance. But in the interim I respect the fact that he's our duly elected President, I believe him to be a decent man who has our countries best interest at heart. I just don't agree with the way he goes about doing his job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardisimo
Ok, since you want to pick apart the atomic scenario with your ASSUMTION that religion is based on things that are not “real” then here’s a real scenario, simplified so you may (or may not) get the point.
Would you go to Iran (or any other devout Muslim nation), sit on a well know Muslim cleric’s tomb and preach about how America is so great, cause we allow moderate Muslims to build a mosque at the site of the 9/11 attacks?
It would be legal to say that, maybe even legal to sit there, but would it be the right thing to do? Would your words be accepted with open arms? Even YOU know the answer to that.
Perhaps you could move over a few feet (not out of your way) but just enough to keep from pissing off everyone in the area and show some RESPECT. Maybe even you would decide not to sit on a tomb just because you CAN.
Incase people here dont know how close this mosque will be to Ground Zero , heres a pic . Its about 3 short blocks away .
http://images.craigslist.org/3n83k83...5dd47817ea.jpg
Reid breaks with Obama, opposes mosque near Ground Zero
Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid is breaking ranks with President Obama over the issue of the proposed construction of a controversial Islamic center and mosque just blocks away from Ground Zero
"The First Amendment protects freedom of religion," spokesman Jim Manley said in a statement. "Sen. Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else. If the Republicans are being sincere, they would help us pass this long overdue bill to help the first responders whose health and livelihoods have been devastated because of their bravery on 911, rather than continuing to block this much-needed legislation."
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ical+Ticker%29
-----------------------
Gearing up for that election Harry? This oughta be fun. Like rats leaving a sinking ship.
Wow, a Democrat thinking like what the majority of Americans would like to see ???? Thats unlike them .
Yes. It's been 9 years, but the first few were a clean-up effort. The fact that while doing so they unearthed other problems wouldn't surprise me. Manhattan was practically built on a garbage dump. Hell, they even found a boat under all that mess. I'm sure if they keep digging, they might even find some of the beads used in the original purchase... :chuckle:Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityMom
Anyway, the point being if they have a plan to rebuild some proposed superstructure on the site, the first priority would be to make sure the foundation is sound. I'm sure they don't just keep digging to look for a quicker way to China.
It would be more of a shame to rush through it all, just have it all fall down again.
As far as the mosque... I think (the vicinity) is in poor taste and will breed yet more contempt for the faith.
Have you seen some of these NYer's? They don't need much to get them going. :lol:
Quote:
Reid breaks with Obama, opposes mosque near Ground Zero
Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid is breaking ranks with President Obama over the issue of the proposed construction of a controversial Islamic center and mosque just blocks away from Ground Zero
Make that Democrats - in an election year.Quote:
Originally Posted by venom
They are all scrambling, trying to save their phoney baloney jobs.
Bingo! It's not a constitutional thing as far as I'm concerned. They have the right to practice religion and to build. As I said before it's nothing more than a monument to islam and the killing of 3000+ Americans in that location.Quote:
As far as the mosque... I think (the vicinity) is in poor taste and will breed yet more contempt for the faith.
If it were that, I would understand...but it's not. Not at all. It's been politics getting in the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelMember
There are estimates that have the "remodeling" being done in 2037. 2037???? No wonder people are pissed. All the wanted was rebuilding...meaning having the WTC buildings rebuilt as they were along with some simple memorials. People in NY were pissed about this before the mosque fiasco and I think this just makes them angrier.
Edit: As for the cleanup...it took less than a year. This article was written in May of 2002, 8 months after 9/11.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/30/op...el-column.htmlQuote:
No one expected that it could ever happen as quickly as it has, three months ahead of schedule, under budget and without one serious injury in 1.5 million man-hours. Most of us have found our own ways to accommodate the meaning of Sept. 11. But for the crews that have been at work on that unimaginable site -- and at the holding areas where the debris has been sifted and analyzed -- the one way to deal with the tragedy has been to dismantle it, fragment by fragment, until there was nothing left. Those crews have served as our surrogates. The public displays of the first days may have passed, when crowds cheered the rescue crews and heavy-equipment operators as they moved toward the site, but the gratitude will be unceasing.
Well one thing is clear.....Mr. Obama, Biden and Mahmoud al-Zahar all agree and condemn Israel for building homes in their own country but support a Mosque being built in the GZ area.
A leader of the Hamas terror group yesterday jumped into the emotional debate on the plan to construct a mosque near Ground Zero -- insisting Muslims "have to build" it there.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...a8sNZMTDz0VVPI
Muslim leaders to abandon plans for Ground Zero community center
After weeks of heated debate over plans for an Islamic community center near Ground Zero - the site of the 9/11 attacks on New York - it seems Muslim leaders will soon back down, agreeing to move to a new site.
read more... http://www.haaretz.com/news/internat...ticle_comments
Hope this is true...I dont know much about this source, Ive never heard of the website, so I cant say either way if this is true or not
You are right about that. Everyone seems to have their own idea. At this point, I don't think there is a resolution of what will be placed there, but even if they were to "just rebuild", which I don't think they would because the engineering had a something to do with them falling in the 1st place, they still need to excavate properly. The superscraper I referred to earlier was an idea to not just rebuild it, but to rebuild it even taller. That's where I made the argument from.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityMom
Well, yeah, of course it wasn't proposed that they just build it the same exact way...just the same design, but with better safety modifications.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelMember
And just to make it perfectly clear how long excavating properly would take (or DID take I should say...they've been ready for years now)...The symbolic cornerstone of One World Trade Center was laid down in a ceremony on July 4, 2004 and further construction of the tower was stalled until 2006. What happened in '06? Supposedly the disputes over money, security, and design were resolved in April...but over 4 years later and only about 360 ft. of finished framework stands (as of now). It's a shame.
I'm no architect, but in an article I posted quite a few pages back it was stated that the Empire State building was started and finished in a year, during the great depression and that the original WTC towers were completed within 5 years. This should have been finished a long time ago.
Mischief in Manhattan
We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation
By Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah, Citizen Special August 17, 2010 8:04 AM
Last week, a journalist who writes for the North Country Times, a small newspaper in Southern California, sent us an e-mail titled "Help." He couldn't understand why an Islamic Centre in an area where Adam Gadahn, Osama bin Laden's American spokesman came from, and that was home to three of the 911 terrorists, was looking to expand.
The man has a very valid point, which leads to the ongoing debate about building a Mosque at Ground Zero in New York. When we try to understand the reasoning behind building a mosque at the epicentre of the worst-ever attack on the U.S., we wonder why its proponents don't build a monument to those who died in the attack?
New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.
The Koran commands Muslims to, "Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book" -- i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of "fitna"
So what gives Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the "Cordoba Initiative" and his cohorts the misplaced idea that they will increase tolerance for Muslims by brazenly displaying their own intolerance in this case?
Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?
There are many questions that we would like to ask. Questions about where the funding is coming from? If this mosque is being funded by Saudi sources, then it is an even bigger slap in the face of Americans, as nine of the jihadis in the Twin Tower calamity were Saudis.
If Rauf is serious about building bridges, then he could have dedicated space in this so-called community centre to a church and synagogue, but he did not. We passed on this message to him through a mutual Saudi friend, but received no answer. He could have proposed a memorial to the 9/11 dead with a denouncement of the doctrine of armed jihad, but he chose not to....
...The Koran implores Muslims to speak the truth, even if it hurts the one who utters the truth. Today we speak the truth, knowing very well Muslims have forgotten this crucial injunction from Allah.
If this mosque does get built, it will forever be a lightning rod for those who have little room for Muslims or Islam in the U.S. We simply cannot understand why on Earth the traditional leadership of America's Muslims would not realize their folly and back out in an act of goodwill.
As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.
Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.
Raheel Raza is author of Their Jihad ... Not my Jihad, and Tarek Fatah is author of The Jew is Not My Enemy (McClelland & Stewart), to be launched in October. Both sit on the board of the Muslim Canadian Congress.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/...#ixzz0wsRyJXzH
Sorry Hindes...it's being reported as incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hindes204
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/i...AXIjStoNCSxKpL
Well, to be fair and not hijack this thread anymore, I will just say that the design of the original buildings compounded the issue because they were basically working on an external (perimeter) support system. The architect wanted that "open" feeling on the interior. Sure, they might be able to construct a facade to resemble what was there, but it would probably be mostly aesthetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityMom
... And the Empire State Building... it was also in a "race" to be the highest building in the world (although short-lived). They modified plans for just that fact. That's why the top looks like it does today. This isn't about that.
Conservative Muslim-Americans' Letter To GOP Leaders: Don't Bring Mosque Debate Into Elections
"bu..bu..bu..bush" lol
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_684692.html
Quote:
Dear Republican Colleague:
We are writing to you today as loyal Americans who are active members of the Republican Party. We also happen to be proud of our Arab American and Muslim American contributions to the Republican Party.
We are deeply concerned by the rhetoric of some leading members of our party surrounding the construction of the Muslim Community Center in downtown Manhattan. These comments are not only constitutionally unsound, they are also alienating millions of Arab American and Muslim American voters who believe, as we do, in the principles of our party - individual liberty, traditional values, and the rule of law.
As you know, our party has had a long history of inclusion - beginning with our great President Abraham Lincoln, whose leadership on the slavery issue was monumental, and continuing through President George W. Bush whose public statements and actions on the differentiation between Islam and the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11 were critically important.We are particularly proud to note that President Bush appointed more Arab Americans and Muslim Americans to his administration than any other president in U.S. history.
That being said, it perplexes us as to why some vocal members of our party have chosen to oppose the construction of a cultural and religious center on private grounds. Not only does the First Amendment to our Constitution protect the right of these private citizens to worship freely, it also prevents Congress from making any law respecting an establishment of religion. Our party and the leaders in our party should not be engaged in judgment issues of the location of a cultural center and a house of worship in direct contravention of the First Amendment.
While some in our party have recently conceded the constitutional argument, they are now arguing that it is insensitive, intolerant and unacceptable to locate the center at the present location: "Just because they have the right to do so - does not make it the right thing to do" they say. Many of these individuals are objecting to the location as being too close to the Ground Zero site and voicing the understandable pain and anguish of the 9-11 families who lost loved ones in this horrible tragedy. In expressing compassion and understanding for these families, we are asking ourselves the following: if two blocks is too close, is four blocks acceptable? or six blocks? or eight blocks? Does our party believe that one can only practice his/her religion in certain places within defined boundaries and away from the disapproving glances of some citizens? Should our party not be standing up and taking a leadership role- just like President Bush did after 9-11 - by making a clear distinction between Islam, one of the great three monotheistic faiths along with Judaism and Christianity, versus the terrorists who committed the atrocities on 9-11 and who are not only the true enemies of America but of Islam as well? President Bush struck the right balance in expressing sympathy for the families of the 9-11 victims while making it absolutely clear that the acts committed on 9-11 were not in the name of Islam. We are hoping that our party leaders can do the same now - especially at a time when it is greatly needed.
While we share the desire of all in our party to be successful in the November elections, we cannot support victory at the expense of the U.S. Constitution or the Arab and Muslim community in America. As President Lincoln so eloquently stated in his famous speech: "a house divided against itself cannot stand."
As proud and patriotic Americans, we are grateful for all the rights our U.S. citizenship allows us, and we will always do our best to not only protect our rights but the rights of all others as well. May God Bless our nation, our freedoms, and our party.
David Ramadan
Vice Chair, Ethnic Coalitions, Republican Party of Virginia
Sherine El-Abd
President, New Jersey Federation of Republican Women
Randa Fahmy Hudome
Associate Deputy Secretary of Energy, Bush Administration
George Salem
Solicitor of Labor, Reagan Administration
Suhail Khan
Chairman, Conservative Inclusion Coalition
the funny (and truly ironic) thing is the same huge contingency that opposes the mosque would probably have absolutely no problem with new towers being financed and backed by a saudi arabian investment group and middle eastern oil money.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityMom
that same group has no problems with the ownership stake muslim money has in some of our largest financial institutions.
:doh:
yea, i was skeptical...but hopeful. I honestly dont think this thing will ever get built anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityMom
how far is wall street and the stock exchanges from ground zero?
isnt it funny how muslim money is more than welcome in NYC but worshippers arent?
http://www.gata.org/node/5788
Middle Eastern Muslims "makin it rain" in NYC
where is the outrage?Quote:
Citigroup Inc., seeking to restore investor confidence amid massive losses due in credit markets and a lack of permanent leadership, is receiving a $7.5 billion capital infusion from the investment arm of the Abu Dhabi government.
The investment by the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority will help rebuild Citigroup's capital levels, which have been eroded by a credit crunch that began in the summer. Citigroup Chief Executive Officer and Chairman Charles Prince resigned earlier this month after the bank, which had already written off billions of dollars, said it was facing as much as $11 billion more in losses.
Citigroup announced the transaction last night.
As a result of the deal, the investment authority known as ADIA will become one of Citigroup's largest shareholders, with a stake of no more than 4.9%. The stake will exceed that of Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, long known as one of Citigroup's largest shareholders, according to a person familiar with the situation.
...
"This investment reflects our confidence in Citi's potential to build shareholder value," said ADIA's Managing Director, Sheikh Ahmed Bin Zayed Al Nahayan.
In exchange for its investment, ADIA will receive convertible stock in Citigroup yielding 11% annually. The shares are required to be converted into common stock at a conversion price of between $31.83 and $37.24 a share over a period of time between March 2010 and September 2011. The investment, which came together in about a week, is expected to close within the next several days.
A single law rules NYC. "Money talks. Bull@#$% walks".Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest
What outrage? That single law transcends all law, religion, party, family, or allegiance of any kind.
And muslims don't worship. They submit.
I oppose both, including Saudi oil worship from Obama, Bush or anyone else!Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest
outrageous, isnt it?
all we can really do is laugh all the way "to hell in a handbasket".
http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...ine=1275533214
Hey, just as an aside, can we all stop falling into the media trap of calling this the "ground zero mosque" already? I was skeptical by the design of it to keep calling it a mosque, but now that I know fully what will be going on there and what is included in the building, it's silly to keep calling it a mosque.
- Mosques may only be used for Muslim worship. Cordoba Center will allow interfaith services. Therefore it is not a mosque.
http://www.aina.org/news/2010089105850.htmQuote:
What Imam Feisal is describing here seems to be a no-strings-attached gift to lower Manhattan from a group of idealistic Muslims who aim to soothe interfaith tensions at Ground Zero. In describing a "prayer space for many religions," he seems to paint a picture of a place where Muslims of every stripe (Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis, Ahmadiyyas, Koranists), along with Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, and even Baha'i (who are viciously persecuted in the Arab world), can all offer prayers together in interfaith services, and where each faith group can pray separately in its own tradition in space designated for it.
- Mosques must publicly broadcast the calls to prayer. Cordoba Center will not. Therefore it is not a mosque.
- Non-Muslims may not eat or sleep at mosques. Non-Muslims will be welcome to eat at Cordoba Center. Therefore it is not a mosque.
http://cordobainitiative.wordpress.c...-prayer-space/Quote:
Among the questions we have heard regarding Cordoba House is what is the definition of a prayer space, and how is that different than a mosque.
Most practicing Muslims pray five times a day, at set times. While some Muslims do their prayers in a mosque, most pray where they are, whether at work, school, or home. Much like other faiths, they have a house of worship, but prayers can take place anywhere.
Prayer space does not signify a mosque. Certain aspects of Cordoba House disqualifies it as a mosque, including space for musical performance or a restaurant, which are not allowed to be in a mosque. However, additional prayer is necessary as the existing nearby mosques are no longer able to tend to the need for prayer space.
Furthermore, Cordoba House’s vision is bigger than being a mosque. It is about creating a community center that serves all New Yorkers. A prime example of this fact is the planned meditation room, where people of any faith can pray or meditate. For all these reasons we believe it is imperative to have prayer space in the Cordoba House.
Besides...there's already a building only 4 blocks away from ground zero that is considered a mosque only. People should go protest it. Why aren't they? Because it was there before 9/11.
Its funny how Liberals want the mosque to be bulit. Liberals have tried to remove any traces of religion from our lives . But they will fight to the death to erect a mosque near Ground Zero in the name of religious freedom.