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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityMom
I posed this question earlier in the thread and no one responded...but do you think people would be so offended by this if NYC wasn't dragging its feet on rebuilding ground zero. I mean, it's been almost 9 years and all there is to show for it is 200ft of bare structure and no real final plans for anything. I mean, they've spent billions of dollars already, shouldn't they have SOMETHING to show for it?
Wouldn't be much of a victory for the terrorists if the site was already rebuilt...and it's not any Muslims fault that it's not.
Yes. It's been 9 years, but the first few were a clean-up effort. The fact that while doing so they unearthed other problems wouldn't surprise me. Manhattan was practically built on a garbage dump. Hell, they even found a boat under all that mess. I'm sure if they keep digging, they might even find some of the beads used in the original purchase... :chuckle:
Anyway, the point being if they have a plan to rebuild some proposed superstructure on the site, the first priority would be to make sure the foundation is sound. I'm sure they don't just keep digging to look for a quicker way to China.
It would be more of a shame to rush through it all, just have it all fall down again.
As far as the mosque... I think (the vicinity) is in poor taste and will breed yet more contempt for the faith.
Have you seen some of these NYer's? They don't need much to get them going. :lol:
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Reid breaks with Obama, opposes mosque near Ground Zero
Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid is breaking ranks with President Obama over the issue of the proposed construction of a controversial Islamic center and mosque just blocks away from Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
venom
Wow, a Democrat thinking like what the majority of Americans would like to see ???? Thats unlike them .
Make that Democrats - in an election year.
They are all scrambling, trying to save their phoney baloney jobs.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
As far as the mosque... I think (the vicinity) is in poor taste and will breed yet more contempt for the faith.
Bingo! It's not a constitutional thing as far as I'm concerned. They have the right to practice religion and to build. As I said before it's nothing more than a monument to islam and the killing of 3000+ Americans in that location.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelMember
Yes. It's been 9 years, but the first few were a clean-up effort. The fact that while doing so they unearthed other problems wouldn't surprise me. Manhattan was practically built on a garbage dump. Hell, they even found a boat under all that mess. I'm sure if they keep digging, they might even find some of the beads used in the original purchase... :chuckle:
Anyway, the point being if they have a plan to rebuild some proposed superstructure on the site, the first priority would be to make sure the foundation is sound. I'm sure they don't just keep digging to look for a quicker way to China.
It would be more of a shame to rush through it all, just have it all fall down again.
As far as the mosque... I think (the vicinity) is in poor taste and will breed yet more contempt for the faith.
Have you seen some of these NYer's? They don't need much to get them going. :lol:
If it were that, I would understand...but it's not. Not at all. It's been politics getting in the way.
There are estimates that have the "remodeling" being done in 2037. 2037???? No wonder people are pissed. All the wanted was rebuilding...meaning having the WTC buildings rebuilt as they were along with some simple memorials. People in NY were pissed about this before the mosque fiasco and I think this just makes them angrier.
Edit: As for the cleanup...it took less than a year. This article was written in May of 2002, 8 months after 9/11.
Quote:
No one expected that it could ever happen as quickly as it has, three months ahead of schedule, under budget and without one serious injury in 1.5 million man-hours. Most of us have found our own ways to accommodate the meaning of Sept. 11. But for the crews that have been at work on that unimaginable site -- and at the holding areas where the debris has been sifted and analyzed -- the one way to deal with the tragedy has been to dismantle it, fragment by fragment, until there was nothing left. Those crews have served as our surrogates. The public displays of the first days may have passed, when crowds cheered the rescue crews and heavy-equipment operators as they moved toward the site, but the gratitude will be unceasing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/30/op...el-column.html
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Well one thing is clear.....Mr. Obama, Biden and Mahmoud al-Zahar all agree and condemn Israel for building homes in their own country but support a Mosque being built in the GZ area.
A leader of the Hamas terror group yesterday jumped into the emotional debate on the plan to construct a mosque near Ground Zero -- insisting Muslims "have to build" it there.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...a8sNZMTDz0VVPI
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Muslim leaders to abandon plans for Ground Zero community center
After weeks of heated debate over plans for an Islamic community center near Ground Zero - the site of the 9/11 attacks on New York - it seems Muslim leaders will soon back down, agreeing to move to a new site.
read more... http://www.haaretz.com/news/internat...ticle_comments
Hope this is true...I dont know much about this source, Ive never heard of the website, so I cant say either way if this is true or not
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityMom
If it were that, I would understand...but it's not. Not at all. It's been politics getting in the way.
You are right about that. Everyone seems to have their own idea. At this point, I don't think there is a resolution of what will be placed there, but even if they were to "just rebuild", which I don't think they would because the engineering had a something to do with them falling in the 1st place, they still need to excavate properly. The superscraper I referred to earlier was an idea to not just rebuild it, but to rebuild it even taller. That's where I made the argument from.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelMember
You are right about that. Everyone seems to have their own idea. At this point, I don't think there is a resolution of what will be placed there, but even if they were to "just rebuild", which I don't think they would because the engineering had a something to do with them falling in the 1st place, they still need to excavate properly. The superscraper I referred to earlier was an idea to not just rebuild it, but to rebuild it even taller. That's where I made the argument from.
Well, yeah, of course it wasn't proposed that they just build it the same exact way...just the same design, but with better safety modifications.
And just to make it perfectly clear how long excavating properly would take (or DID take I should say...they've been ready for years now)...The symbolic cornerstone of One World Trade Center was laid down in a ceremony on July 4, 2004 and further construction of the tower was stalled until 2006. What happened in '06? Supposedly the disputes over money, security, and design were resolved in April...but over 4 years later and only about 360 ft. of finished framework stands (as of now). It's a shame.
I'm no architect, but in an article I posted quite a few pages back it was stated that the Empire State building was started and finished in a year, during the great depression and that the original WTC towers were completed within 5 years. This should have been finished a long time ago.
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Using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies
Mischief in Manhattan
We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation
By Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah, Citizen Special August 17, 2010 8:04 AM
Last week, a journalist who writes for the North Country Times, a small newspaper in Southern California, sent us an e-mail titled "Help." He couldn't understand why an Islamic Centre in an area where Adam Gadahn, Osama bin Laden's American spokesman came from, and that was home to three of the 911 terrorists, was looking to expand.
The man has a very valid point, which leads to the ongoing debate about building a Mosque at Ground Zero in New York. When we try to understand the reasoning behind building a mosque at the epicentre of the worst-ever attack on the U.S., we wonder why its proponents don't build a monument to those who died in the attack?
New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.
The Koran commands Muslims to, "Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book" -- i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of "fitna"
So what gives Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the "Cordoba Initiative" and his cohorts the misplaced idea that they will increase tolerance for Muslims by brazenly displaying their own intolerance in this case?
Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?
There are many questions that we would like to ask. Questions about where the funding is coming from? If this mosque is being funded by Saudi sources, then it is an even bigger slap in the face of Americans, as nine of the jihadis in the Twin Tower calamity were Saudis.
If Rauf is serious about building bridges, then he could have dedicated space in this so-called community centre to a church and synagogue, but he did not. We passed on this message to him through a mutual Saudi friend, but received no answer. He could have proposed a memorial to the 9/11 dead with a denouncement of the doctrine of armed jihad, but he chose not to....
...The Koran implores Muslims to speak the truth, even if it hurts the one who utters the truth. Today we speak the truth, knowing very well Muslims have forgotten this crucial injunction from Allah.
If this mosque does get built, it will forever be a lightning rod for those who have little room for Muslims or Islam in the U.S. We simply cannot understand why on Earth the traditional leadership of America's Muslims would not realize their folly and back out in an act of goodwill.
As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.
Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.
Raheel Raza is author of Their Jihad ... Not my Jihad, and Tarek Fatah is author of The Jew is Not My Enemy (McClelland & Stewart), to be launched in October. Both sit on the board of the Muslim Canadian Congress.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/...#ixzz0wsRyJXzH
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hindes204
Muslim leaders to abandon plans for Ground Zero community center
After weeks of heated debate over plans for an Islamic community center near Ground Zero - the site of the 9/11 attacks on New York - it seems Muslim leaders will soon back down, agreeing to move to a new site.
read more...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/internat...ticle_comments
Hope this is true...I dont know much about this source, Ive never heard of the website, so I cant say either way if this is true or not
Sorry Hindes...it's being reported as incorrect.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/i...AXIjStoNCSxKpL
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityMom
Well, yeah, of course it wasn't proposed that they just build it the same exact way...just the same design, but with better safety modifications.
And just to make it perfectly clear how long excavating properly would take (or DID take I should say...they've been ready for years now)...The symbolic cornerstone of One World Trade Center was laid down in a ceremony on July 4, 2004 and further construction of the tower was stalled until 2006. What happened in '06? Supposedly the disputes over money, security, and design were resolved in April...but over 4 years later and only about 360 ft. of finished framework stands (as of now). It's a shame.
I'm no architect, but in an article I posted quite a few pages back it was stated that the Empire State building was started and finished in a year, during the great depression and that the original WTC towers were completed within 5 years. This should have been finished a long time ago.
Well, to be fair and not hijack this thread anymore, I will just say that the design of the original buildings compounded the issue because they were basically working on an external (perimeter) support system. The architect wanted that "open" feeling on the interior. Sure, they might be able to construct a facade to resemble what was there, but it would probably be mostly aesthetic.
... And the Empire State Building... it was also in a "race" to be the highest building in the world (although short-lived). They modified plans for just that fact. That's why the top looks like it does today. This isn't about that.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Conservative Muslim-Americans' Letter To GOP Leaders: Don't Bring Mosque Debate Into Elections
"bu..bu..bu..bush" lol
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_684692.html
Quote:
Dear Republican Colleague:
We are writing to you today as loyal Americans who are active members of the Republican Party. We also happen to be proud of our Arab American and Muslim American contributions to the Republican Party.
We are deeply concerned by the rhetoric of some leading members of our party surrounding the construction of the Muslim Community Center in downtown Manhattan. These comments are not only constitutionally unsound, they are also alienating millions of Arab American and Muslim American voters who believe, as we do, in the principles of our party - individual liberty, traditional values, and the rule of law.
As you know, our party has had a long history of inclusion - beginning with our great President Abraham Lincoln, whose leadership on the slavery issue was monumental, and continuing through President George W. Bush whose public statements and actions on the differentiation between Islam and the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11 were critically important.We are particularly proud to note that President Bush appointed more Arab Americans and Muslim Americans to his administration than any other president in U.S. history.
That being said, it perplexes us as to why some vocal members of our party have chosen to oppose the construction of a cultural and religious center on private grounds. Not only does the First Amendment to our Constitution protect the right of these private citizens to worship freely, it also prevents Congress from making any law respecting an establishment of religion. Our party and the leaders in our party should not be engaged in judgment issues of the location of a cultural center and a house of worship in direct contravention of the First Amendment.
While some in our party have recently conceded the constitutional argument, they are now arguing that it is insensitive, intolerant and unacceptable to locate the center at the present location: "Just because they have the right to do so - does not make it the right thing to do" they say. Many of these individuals are objecting to the location as being too close to the Ground Zero site and voicing the understandable pain and anguish of the 9-11 families who lost loved ones in this horrible tragedy. In expressing compassion and understanding for these families, we are asking ourselves the following: if two blocks is too close, is four blocks acceptable? or six blocks? or eight blocks? Does our party believe that one can only practice his/her religion in certain places within defined boundaries and away from the disapproving glances of some citizens? Should our party not be standing up and taking a leadership role- just like President Bush did after 9-11 - by making a clear distinction between Islam, one of the great three monotheistic faiths along with Judaism and Christianity, versus the terrorists who committed the atrocities on 9-11 and who are not only the true enemies of America but of Islam as well? President Bush struck the right balance in expressing sympathy for the families of the 9-11 victims while making it absolutely clear that the acts committed on 9-11 were not in the name of Islam. We are hoping that our party leaders can do the same now - especially at a time when it is greatly needed.
While we share the desire of all in our party to be successful in the November elections, we cannot support victory at the expense of the U.S. Constitution or the Arab and Muslim community in America. As President Lincoln so eloquently stated in his famous speech: "a house divided against itself cannot stand."
As proud and patriotic Americans, we are grateful for all the rights our U.S. citizenship allows us, and we will always do our best to not only protect our rights but the rights of all others as well. May God Bless our nation, our freedoms, and our party.
David Ramadan
Vice Chair, Ethnic Coalitions, Republican Party of Virginia
Sherine El-Abd
President, New Jersey Federation of Republican Women
Randa Fahmy Hudome
Associate Deputy Secretary of Energy, Bush Administration
George Salem
Solicitor of Labor, Reagan Administration
Suhail Khan
Chairman, Conservative Inclusion Coalition
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityMom
What happened in '06? Supposedly the disputes over money, security, and design were resolved in April...but over 4 years later and only about 360 ft. of finished framework stands (as of now). It's a shame.
.
the funny (and truly ironic) thing is the same huge contingency that opposes the mosque would probably have absolutely no problem with new towers being financed and backed by a saudi arabian investment group and middle eastern oil money.
that same group has no problems with the ownership stake muslim money has in some of our largest financial institutions.
:doh:
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityMom
yea, i was skeptical...but hopeful. I honestly dont think this thing will ever get built anyway
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
how far is wall street and the stock exchanges from ground zero?
isnt it funny how muslim money is more than welcome in NYC but worshippers arent?
http://www.gata.org/node/5788
Middle Eastern Muslims "makin it rain" in NYC
Quote:
Citigroup Inc., seeking to restore investor confidence amid massive losses due in credit markets and a lack of permanent leadership, is receiving a $7.5 billion capital infusion from the investment arm of the Abu Dhabi government.
The investment by the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority will help rebuild Citigroup's capital levels, which have been eroded by a credit crunch that began in the summer. Citigroup Chief Executive Officer and Chairman Charles Prince resigned earlier this month after the bank, which had already written off billions of dollars, said it was facing as much as $11 billion more in losses.
Citigroup announced the transaction last night.
As a result of the deal, the investment authority known as ADIA will become one of Citigroup's largest shareholders, with a stake of no more than 4.9%. The stake will exceed that of Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, long known as one of Citigroup's largest shareholders, according to a person familiar with the situation.
...
"This investment reflects our confidence in Citi's potential to build shareholder value," said ADIA's Managing Director, Sheikh Ahmed Bin Zayed Al Nahayan.
In exchange for its investment, ADIA will receive convertible stock in Citigroup yielding 11% annually. The shares are required to be converted into common stock at a conversion price of between $31.83 and $37.24 a share over a period of time between March 2010 and September 2011. The investment, which came together in about a week, is expected to close within the next several days.
where is the outrage?
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tony hipchest
how far is wall street and the stock exchanges from ground zero?
isnt it funny how muslim money is more than welcome in NYC but worshippers arent?
http://www.gata.org/node/5788
Middle Eastern Muslims "makin it rain" in NYC
where is the outrage?
A single law rules NYC. "Money talks. Bull@#$% walks".
What outrage? That single law transcends all law, religion, party, family, or allegiance of any kind.
And muslims don't worship. They submit.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tony hipchest
the funny (and truly ironic) thing is the same huge contingency that opposes the mosque would probably have absolutely no problem with new towers being financed and backed by a saudi arabian investment group and middle eastern oil money.
that same group has no problems with the ownership stake muslim money has in some of our largest financial institutions.
:doh:
I oppose both, including Saudi oil worship from Obama, Bush or anyone else!
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
outrageous, isnt it?
all we can really do is laugh all the way "to hell in a handbasket".
http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...ine=1275533214
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Hey, just as an aside, can we all stop falling into the media trap of calling this the "ground zero mosque" already? I was skeptical by the design of it to keep calling it a mosque, but now that I know fully what will be going on there and what is included in the building, it's silly to keep calling it a mosque.
- Mosques may only be used for Muslim worship. Cordoba Center will allow interfaith services. Therefore it is not a mosque.
Quote:
What Imam Feisal is describing here seems to be a no-strings-attached gift to lower Manhattan from a group of idealistic Muslims who aim to soothe interfaith tensions at Ground Zero. In describing a "prayer space for many religions," he seems to paint a picture of a place where Muslims of every stripe (Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis, Ahmadiyyas, Koranists), along with Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, and even Baha'i (who are viciously persecuted in the Arab world), can all offer prayers together in interfaith services, and where each faith group can pray separately in its own tradition in space designated for it.
http://www.aina.org/news/2010089105850.htm
- Mosques must publicly broadcast the calls to prayer. Cordoba Center will not. Therefore it is not a mosque.
- Non-Muslims may not eat or sleep at mosques. Non-Muslims will be welcome to eat at Cordoba Center. Therefore it is not a mosque.
Quote:
Among the questions we have heard regarding Cordoba House is what is the definition of a prayer space, and how is that different than a mosque.
Most practicing Muslims pray five times a day, at set times. While some Muslims do their prayers in a mosque, most pray where they are, whether at work, school, or home. Much like other faiths, they have a house of worship, but prayers can take place anywhere.
Prayer space does not signify a mosque. Certain aspects of Cordoba House disqualifies it as a mosque, including space for musical performance or a restaurant, which are not allowed to be in a mosque. However, additional prayer is necessary as the existing nearby mosques are no longer able to tend to the need for prayer space.
Furthermore, Cordoba House’s vision is bigger than being a mosque. It is about creating a community center that serves all New Yorkers. A prime example of this fact is the planned meditation room, where people of any faith can pray or meditate. For all these reasons we believe it is imperative to have prayer space in the Cordoba House.
http://cordobainitiative.wordpress.c...-prayer-space/
Besides...there's already a building only 4 blocks away from ground zero that is considered a mosque only. People should go protest it. Why aren't they? Because it was there before 9/11.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Its funny how Liberals want the mosque to be bulit. Liberals have tried to remove any traces of religion from our lives . But they will fight to the death to erect a mosque near Ground Zero in the name of religious freedom.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.
From an earlair post from vincent.
This really resonates with me.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityMom
Hey, just as an aside, can we all stop falling into the media trap of calling this the "ground zero
mosque" already? I was skeptical by the design of it to keep calling it a mosque, but now that I know fully what will be going on there and what is included in the building, it's silly to keep calling it a mosque.
- Mosques may only be used for Muslim worship. Cordoba Center will allow interfaith services. Therefore it is not a mosque.
http://www.aina.org/news/2010089105850.htm
- Mosques must publicly broadcast the calls to prayer. Cordoba Center will not. Therefore it is not a mosque.
- Non-Muslims may not eat or sleep at mosques. Non-Muslims will be welcome to eat at Cordoba Center. Therefore it is not a mosque.
http://cordobainitiative.wordpress.c...-prayer-space/
Besides...there's already a building only 4 blocks away from ground zero that is considered a mosque only. People should go protest it. Why aren't they? Because it was there before 9/11.
Ah yes, good old Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.... who refuses to acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist group and said "The US and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end."
The Iman that the State Dept just sent traveling on our dime to "foster greater understanding and outreach around the world, among...Muslim majority communities"
Here is an interesting article from the same Assyrian International News Agency on "Will the Real Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf Please Stand Up"?
http://www.aina.org/news/20100813120808.htm
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Funny, it's not just liberals who support the community center being built.
Quote:
But the truth is, not every 9/11 family opposes the center. In fact, there's quite a large group of supporters.
"There is no simple, singular 9/11 group who really should or could speak for all 9/11 family members," said Donna Marsh O'Connor of September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, a coalition of over 250 families who support the building of the mosque. O'Connor's 29-year-old pregnant daughter was killed in one of the World Trade Center towers. "This is not a small issue, this is what America has always been -- a place where people come to escape religious persecution. I can understand people saying that this is a slap. This does hurt. But we don't change fundamentally what our nation is about because it will hurt people."
Charles Wolf of New York City lost his wife, Katherine, 56, in the attacks. He supports the mosque "100 percent."
Herb Ouida's son Todd died on 9/11, and warns against harsh tone of the opposition. He said, "What we are doing is we are saying to the world that we are at war with Islam. And we can't be. I want my grandchildren to live in a better world."
Quote:
We live in a nation of laws. And we live by the rule of law. And the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. We don't govern in some ad hoc, knee-jerk, arbitrary manner based on the prejudices, sensitivities or whims of a select few. We also don't govern based on majority rule. If that were the case, despicable groups like the KKK and white supremacists would not be able to march and protest in places like Selma, Ala and Skokie, Ill against the wishes of blacks, Jews and others who find such activity highly insensitive and offensive, and rightly so. But the Constitution is quite clear about the freedoms we enjoy such as freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom to assemble, as well as the laws that prohibit religious discrimination. Sorry, but there's no gray area here. We may not like the words or actions of some people or groups and might find them reprehensible, but that still doesn't give us the right to impose our views on the rest of society and expect decisions to be made based on those narrow judgements.
We cannot become a nation where we allow the squeakiest wheel of ignorance and intolerance to get the most grease. We also don't live in a nation where victims of a crime, or their families, get to rewrite the Constitution... no matter how sensitive we are to their pain and suffering.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-o..._b_684511.html
Quote:
stood in front of the site and said, "What we're rejecting here is outright bigotry and hatred."
Catholic priest Kevin Madigan, of St. Peter's Church, which is about a block away, agreed.
"I think they need to establish a place such as this for people of goodwill from mainline Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths so we can come together to talk," Madigan said.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...hrSOw4Q6hpvbQL
I myself am not a liberal either. I'm a different kind of lib (libertarian), and I'd be going against my own political and social views if I were to object to this community center being built. I also have no problem with religion in anyone's daily life, though I am not religious. Far be it from me to stop people from believing and worshiping something that I personally do not think is there.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shoes
Ah yes, good old Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.... who refuses to acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist group and said "The US and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end."
The Iman that the State Dept just sent traveling on our dime to "foster greater understanding and outreach around the world, among...Muslim majority communities"
Here is an interesting article from the same Assyrian International News Agency on "Will the Real Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf Please Stand Up"?
http://www.aina.org/news/20100813120808.htm
Yeah...I know all about that. He's been doing this for YEARS now. Bush is the one who initially appointed this position to him.
Funny how nobody brought this up until Obama was president or before he decided to build an interfaith community center in Lower Manhattan.
Also, he did not say that the US foreign policy was only to blame for 9/11...he said he thought it might be partly to blame. So what if he thinks that? At least he doesn't think it was a secret government plot like a bunch of "truthers" who are allowed to spout their nonsense (as close to ground zero as they want even) wherever they please.
I'm not focusing on the man's views and vilifying him for whatever things he may personally believe about Hamas or the flying spaghetti monster. I'm focusing on the purpose of the community center alone.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteelCityMom
Yeah...I know all about that. He's been doing this for YEARS now. Bush is the one who initially appointed this position to him.
Funny how nobody brought this up until Obama was president or before he decided to build an interfaith community center in Lower Manhattan.
Also, he did not say that the US foreign policy was only to blame for 9/11...he said he thought it might be partly to blame. So what if he thinks that? At least he doesn't think it was a secret government plot like a bunch of "truthers" who are allowed to spout their nonsense (as close to ground zero as they want even) wherever they please.
I'm not focusing on the man's views and vilifying him for whatever things he may personally believe about Hamas or the flying spaghetti monster. I'm focusing on the purpose of the community center alone.
I hold no allegiance to Obama or Bush and you can call it a community center two blocks away if you want Mom (I do respect and appreciate your point of view).....but this is the reality of it from my experience.
"Ground Zero" is both the geographic and symbolic heart of the attacks in which Islamist terrorists on September 11, 2001, murdered almost 3,000 Americans." The trophy mosque planned for Ground Zero will surely represent another victory for the stealth jihadist struggle if it is built".
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
so freedom of religion trumps freedom of speech. as has been said by many others before, here and elsewhere, although they have the legal right, and the govt. should not step in, many believe it is the insensitive and wrong thing to do. just as many in other communities protest when a wal-mart comes to there town. or when the kkk marches down their streets, or some who protest gay-day parades. not to mention anti-war protesters with die-ins, etc. we are all supposed to protect their freedom of speech and expression, while we may not agree. so all who protest this insensitive and inexplicable move should now be quiet and move along. both freedoms we hold dear are in play and should be exercised, regardless of how anyone feels.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
venom
Its funny how Liberals want the mosque to be bulit. Liberals have tried to remove any traces of religion from our lives . But they will fight to the death to erect a mosque near Ground Zero in the name of religious freedom.
this is putrid right wing spin and propoganda fueled by irresponsible rhetoric.
to downplay the sacrifice made by all those who laid down their lives for all of us and all of our freedoms (of all parties and creeds) is repugnant.
it is your own sins and shortcomings that have removed all traces of religion from republicans lives. if they look to the schools, and courts, and naitivity scenes on state grounds as "all traces' then they are lost to begin with.
i know the republican way is to just show up on sundays and toss some cash in the offering tray and be cleared of their sins for the rest of the week
but one is so butt hurt about the govt not supplimenting the rest, perhaps they should look into the bibles instead of looking at the libs.
absolutely disgusting, but typical of the right wing hatred i have come to expect.
i see you are troubled and i will pray for your enlightenment and forgiveness as i will my own.
in the meantime some republicans may wanna consider banning themselves from preaching on public forums. most are far less qualified than they think. as they say, "dont try to remove a splinter from your brothers eye, when you got a log in yours".
Quote:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
the sermon on the mount wasnt given in a classroom or courthouse, and the beatitudes werent delivered in a public park or even the temple. there is alot one can learn from this.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
i know the republican way is to just show up on sundays and toss some cash in the offering tray and be cleared of their sins for the rest of the week
but one is so butt hurt about the govt not supplimenting the rest, perhaps they should look into the bibles instead of looking at the libs
Damn tony that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zulater
Damn tony that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there.
and this wasnt?- http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...post-right.png Its funny how Liberals want the mosque to be bulit. Liberals have tried to remove any traces of religion from our lives . But they will fight to the death to erect a mosque near Ground Zero in the name of religious freedom.
the sad thing is, he really believes it, and i just did it to illustrate a point (and how absurd the claim was.)
how come the right is never called out for painting with a broad brush around here? :scratchchin:
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Republican? Is it possable that one man is so enlightened that he can look into the sole of so many people and level such as harsh judgment on all of them. I know the man the uttered the words you just quoted, and I feel it safe to say, you are not him. I think that such an indictment of a whole group of people should be handled by God himself and no one else. I also believe that you just describe as many Democrats as Republican
HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN, LET HIM CAST THE FIRST STONE.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tony hipchest
and this wasnt?-
http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...post-right.png Its funny how Liberals want the mosque to be bulit. Liberals have tried to remove any traces of religion from our lives . But they will fight to the death to erect a mosque near Ground Zero in the name of religious freedom.
the sad thing is, he really believes it, and i just did it to illustrate a point (and how absurd the claim was.)
how come the right is never called out for painting with a broad brush around here? :scratchchin:
The beauty of irony escapes you Tony.\
By the way tony if I take the first sentence and slightly alter it would you disagree with it?
to wit...
Its funny how Liberals want the mosque to be bulit. Liberals have tried to remove (m) any traces of religion from our public lives . But they will fight to the death to erect a mosque near Ground Zero in the name of religious freedom.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Texasteel
Republican? Is it possable that one man is so enlightened that he can look into the sole of so many people and level such as harsh judgment on all of them. I know the man the uttered the words you just quoted, and I feel it safe to say, you are not him. I think that such an indictment of a whole group of people should be handled by God himself and no one else. I also believe that you just describe as many Democrats as Republican
HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN, LET HIM CAST THE FIRST STONE.
finally... somebody gets it! :applaudit:
perhaps now venom can finally realize that he is on the outside looking in with his constant barrage of hate speech and twisted propoganda.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Texasteel
Republican? Is it possable that one man is so enlightened that he can look into the sole of so many people and level such as harsh judgment on all of them. I know the man the uttered the words you just quoted, and I feel it safe to say, you are not him. I think that such an indictment of a whole group of people should be handled by God himself and no one else. I also believe that you just describe as many Democrats as Republican
HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN, LET HIM CAST THE FIRST STONE.
isn't that the core of this whole debate ? people painting all muslims with the same brush. people thinking they know the motive behind the planned mosque.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MasterOfPuppets
isn't that the core of this whole debate ? people painting all muslims with the same brush. people thinking they know the motive behind the planned mosque.
Personally I think the motive is common sense. If it sounds like a bad idea to so many people it probably is.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MasterOfPuppets
isn't that the core of this whole debate ? people painting all muslims with the same brush. people thinking they know the motive behind the planned mosque.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...cles/TacgJ.jpg
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
steelwalls
Ok, since you want to pick apart the atomic scenario with your ASSUMTION that religion is based on things that are not “real” then here’s a real scenario, simplified so you may (or may not) get the point.
Would you go to Iran (or any other devout Muslim nation), sit on a well know Muslim cleric’s tomb and preach about how America is so great, cause we allow moderate Muslims to build a mosque at the site of the 9/11 attacks?
It would be legal to say that, maybe even legal to sit there, but would it be the right thing to do? Would your words be accepted with open arms? Even YOU know the answer to that.
Perhaps you could move over a few feet (not out of your way) but just enough to keep from pissing off everyone in the area and show some RESPECT. Maybe even you would decide not to sit on a tomb just because you CAN.
You're talking to the wrong person. I find all religions bizarre and at least vaguely offensive. And the violent, evangelical religions - like Christianity and Islam - are beyond words for me.
The question is if they can do it (they can) and if it is part of some sort of plot (it's not, although being evangelicals there is the "plot" of trying to gain converts). Are you going to be converted by this? Is anyone? The third alternative is Mach's take: that this is basically just popping the bird at Christian America. I can't imagine the organizers (and specifically the money people) purposely picking that fight. I could be wrong... religions make people do some crazy shit, to be sure.
As far as "sitting on some prophet's tomb" or however you put your analogy, take a look at this picture, which gives a much clearer perspective than Venom's:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/...07_634x344.jpg
Does this look like "sitting on the World Trade Center" to you? It's at least two blocks away. That's close enough to have the realty price drop because of the debacle at Ground Zero, but far enough not to be visible or alternately not to have all of the future construction become a traffic issue for visitors. That's just my best guess, not having been in Manhattan for almost twenty years now.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MasterOfPuppets
isn't that the core of this whole debate ? people painting all muslims with the same brush. people thinking they know the motive behind the planned mosque.
To some, maybe. To others like myself it is more the message that will be sent. Like it or not it was ones of that belief that cause the destruction, even if it were extremest. I think whether it is meant to or not it rewards and honors those that did the deed. Thats just my opinion, but it is my opinion
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zulater
Personally I think the motive is common sense. If it sounds like a bad idea to so many people it probably is.
irregardless the constitution gives them the benefit of the doubt. you either believe in the constitution , which is supposedly what makes this the greatest nation , or you don't. that being said, do i think this is poor judgement on their part ? sure i do , but there's a whole lot of things that go on in this country i don't agree with. does it change anything ? nope.
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MasterOfPuppets
isn't that the core of this whole debate ? people painting all muslims with the same brush. people thinking they know the motive behind the planned mosque.
*ding ding ding* somebody else gets it. and even though i have stated i dont even want a muslim community center there due to the percieved symbolism multiple times, i am the one accused to paint with a borad brush for simply illustrating how rediculous some of the hate filled rhetoric and propoganda has gotten.
venom should blame new york. i have yet to hear him condemn all the muslim money flooding the NYC streets that keeps capitalism afloat in this country.
its nothing but "lib this, lib that" (in a thread about a mosque no less). some people are better off protesting in the streets instead of on a public forum full of people who could care less about their misguided opinion and misdirected hate...
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Re: No mosque at Ground Zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tony hipchest
finally... somebody gets it! :applaudit:
perhaps now venom can finally realize that he is on the outside looking in with his constant barrage of hate speech and twisted propoganda.
" Propoganda ", I dont know what that is . Hooked on Phonics for you . Most Americans do not want the mosque to be bulit near GZ . Thank God ( can I say God ) you dont live here .
