They want to break ground on 9-11 as this year it coincides with a holiday for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1
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They want to break ground on 9-11 as this year it coincides with a holiday for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1
The point I was making, SCMom, is that I've found that a lot of people are much quicker to point out that there are GOOD as well as bad Muslims then they are to point out that there are GOOD and bad Christians. Both on this board AND, you know, in the real world.
I just kind of take that as the mood of our country for the most part. I know that there are some who will always flame Christians and their religion...but in general, where we are as a nation, it's become quite accepted to openly denounce all Muslims (especially after 9/11). Except for a select group of people, nobody is really openly denouncing Christians and calling them all terrorists or war-mongers, ya know.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
i couldn't help but notice this went unaddressed ....:noidea:Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardisimo
Everyone has me on ignore now, MoP. Speaking of which...Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
[puts MasterOfPuppets on Ignore]
If I'm not mistaken, the 10th is the end of Ramadan, which is a period of fasting or abstinence or some such thing, which makes the 11th Party Time (or the Islamic equivalent). It might also be something like in Judaism, where you are not supposed to do certain types of work during certain periods, which piles them up on later dates.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWarDen86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardisimo
yeah....that's exactly why they wanna break ground on Sept 11th :jerkit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
I'll give it a shot MOP.
(directed at ric, not MOP)
Speaking of Ephesians ch 5, I wonder if the Quran has any scripture that says "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her.....so husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife, loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it". That's also from Ephesians 5.
As for the other scriptures, ever heard of Kathryn Kuhlman or Joyce Meyer ? Christianity has long had women who prophesy, speak in church and **gasp** are even pastors of their Church. Even at the time these sciptures were written, it was a FAR FAR cry from the Sharia Law that Muslims still practice today.
ric addressed this...
my reading comprehension when it comes to bible lingo isn't the greatest, but it sure looks to me (from the versus ric provided) that god is saying women should STFU and just do as their husband says ...:noidea:Quote:
ric, if you read the Bible, you'd see that in Christianity, women are not inferior
she is to keep silent.
wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
From 1 Timothy, Chapter 2: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent."
From Ephesians 5: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
From 1 Corinthians, Chapter 14: "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
And these are from the New Testament, mind you. This is god's new, improved covenant with his people, the one with reduced violence, no sodium and only half the fat. The OT is not quite this pretty
I guess trying to avoid too many chiefs and not enough indian's in a house-hold eh ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
Sounds about right. And contrary to the conspiracies, they do seem to be putting forth an effort to gain an understanding of their intentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardisimo
Not in those exact words...but yes, the Qur'an does say similar things.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
Quote:
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and God will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)
Quote:
They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187)
http://www.islamfortoday.com/womeninqands.htmQuote:
Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure -- possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness, and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul. The Qur'an declares:
O mankind! Revere your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Revere God, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for God ever watches over you. (4:1)
There are many, many more examples of how men should treat women with respect in Islam. Many interesting articles can be found here. http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm
Conversely, many damning articles about the Talibans treatment of women can be found here. http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen1.htm This treatment is not condoned by moderate Muslims though.
Wow, thank you for pointing that out, SCMom. So, WTF happened ? I mean, the Taliban is not even fundamentalist, they are completely distorting the Quran to where they shoot women execution style in a public place just because of what they deem 'lewd' behavior ? That's F'd upQuote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityMom
EDIT: Did a little research after I posted this. Apparently, according to the Quran, if the wife that you are cherishing and treating nicely get's outta line, it's ok to "smack da bitch". And MOP, I much prefer the Christian idea of "man is the head of the household, wives should submit" to Mohameds examples about treating wives. I've been in the Christian church all my life. Never has my understanding of "wives submit to your husbands" been that women are inferior, or a slave to their husband. Nowhere does the Bible teach that husbands are allowed to beat their wives if they don't do has he asks or jump at his every command.
SOURCE: Mohameds examples and what the Quran teach about husbands and wives.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...fe-beating.htm
I know it is. And it is something that is relatively new. The Taliban is nothing but a bunch of thugs who took control of a country. I know from doing some reading that Muslim women DO have some restrictions on them, but they are more for modesty than any thing else (i.e. the hijab). But not even those are mandatory according to Qur'an scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
The Taliban truly did warp what Islamic scriptures say though. And it's a shame that many Americans think this is a Muslim tradition.
more...http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen6.htmQuote:
The Taliban took control of Kabul on Sept. 26, 1996, and began a reign of terror against women by issuing a series of decrees that would be ludicrous if they weren't so deadly. Many Afghan women are widows -- there are 30,000 in Kabul alone -- without close male relatives, and they are the sole supporters of their children.
Operating under the guise of Islamic law, the Taliban has prohibited women from working, attending school, leaving their homes unless accompanied by a close male relative and wearing shoes that make noise when they walk. The windows of buildings with women inside must be painted. In public, women must be covered from head to toe by a burqa, an oppressive garment that has only a tiny mesh opening over the eyes.
In September 1997, the Taliban began segregating men and women into separate hospitals. Male doctors are forbidden to treat women unless they are accompanied by a close male relative. At one point, Kabul's half-million women were relegated to one hospital that had 35 beds and no clean water, electricity or surgical equipment. After an international uproar, the Taliban eased some restrictions on women's access to hospitals.
Horrible stories continue to emerge. Women and girls are dying of treatable conditions because they can't get medical care or can't afford a burqa. "A burqa costs $9," says Eleanor Smeal, of the Feminist Majority Foundation, which is spearheading a campaign to stop the gender apartheid. "It's a month's salary for them. They never had to wear these before." Moreover, she says, the burqas don't allow women to breathe properly and are themselves a health hazard.
"These are inhumane conditions," Smeal says. "We have a United Nations. We have a world community. We've got to create the will and then do something extraordinary for once, for humanitarian reasons."
Women and men who disobey dress and other behavioral codes are subjected to barbaric punishments. PHR reports that every Friday, "the Taliban terrorizes the city of Kabul by publicly punishing alleged wrongdoers in the Kabul sports stadium and requiring public attendance at the floggings, shootings, hangings, beheadings and amputations."
while you prefer that Christian idea, you dont subscribe to it at all, whatsoever correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityMom
But the Quran and Mohamed have been around a lot longer than the Taliban, and that is where the harsh treatment of wives originated, in the Quran and from Mohamed.
tony, I'm not gonna fall for your pot stirring. Have a nice night.Quote:
Originally Posted by tony hipchest
I know...and I'm not trying to say that it's all sunshine and roses all the time in the Qur'an either, but remember, there are just as many quotes in the Bible that degrade women and wives in the same way that would be illegal to do today. For example...Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
more...http://www.cybercollege.com/antiwoman.htmQuote:
1. In the Bible's book of Deuteronomy it says that if a man marries a woman and then decides that he hates her, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they married. At that point her father must prove she was a virgin. (How is not explained.) If he can't, then the girl is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep.
2. If you see a pretty woman among your captives and would like her for a wife, then bring her home and "go in unto her." Later, if you decide you don't like her, you can simply "let her go." (Deuteronomy)
3. If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deuteronomy)
I'm not saying that anything stated against women in the Qur'an is right...and certainly shouldn't be applied to today, but there are many things that are degrading to women in many different religious texts that are not ok by todays standards. And smacking your wife as a last resort should not be equated with what the Taliban has twisted the Qur'an and Islam into. They are not ok by moderate Muslim standards either, and husbands are instructed to treat their wives with respect and dignity and vice versa.
i most certainly AM NOT the one stirring the pot in this thread. i resent the accusation and take that sort of attack personally.
allow me to make an analogy and just say that i dont want anyone preaching the bible to me and the sins of the forbidden fruit as they sit and eat apple pie.
Not in the way that the Taliban is doing it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
Again, I can't stress how much I disagree with smacking a woman around, but I can't equate it with keeping her locked up all day, painting windows and public execution.
You should read the tips from the book "How to Make Your Wife Happy". It does touch on the physical punishment bit and while THAT is not funny, some of the other stuff kind of is...but you can see how it promotes a mutually respectful relationship.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/how_to_...wife_happy.htmQuote:
3- The last solution is (when allowable) lightly hitting her. In this
case, the husband should consider the following:
- He should know that sunnah is to avoid beating as the Prophet
PBUH never beat a woman or a servant.
- He should do it only in extreme cases of disobedience, e.g.
refusing intercourse without cause frequently, constantly not
praying on time, leaving the house for long periods of time
without permission nor refusing to tell him where she had been,
etc..
- It should not be done except after having turned from her bed and
discussing the matter with her as mentioned in Qur'an .
- He should not hit her hard injuring her, or hit her on her face or
on sensitive parts of her body.
- He should avoid shaming her such as by hitting her with a shoe,
etc.
There's one for the husbands too! AGAIN, I can't stress enough that I don't agree with all of this (and lord knows I don't practice much of it either lol), but it's a far cry from how the Taliban is oppressing women.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/how_to_...band_happy.htm
http://bbs.mediumpimpin.com/images/smilies/hippo.gifQuote:
3- The last solution is (when allowable) lightly hitting her
This might be off-topic considering the current debate, but **SHOCK** Obama fully supports the mosque at ground zero.
By Michael D. Shear and Scott Wilson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, August 14, 2010
President Obama on Friday forcefully joined the national debate over construction of an Islamic complex near New York's Ground Zero, telling guests at a White House dinner marking the holy month of Ramadan that opposing the project is at odds with American values.
"Let me be clear: as a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," Obama said at a White House iftar, the traditional breaking of the daily Ramadan fast.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...prss=rss_print
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1
http://www.bigskyballoons.com/images2/pig01.jpg
I haven't heard of these women. I'm sure they are fine, strong, bright and independent women... and really bad Christians, as the passages I quoted make plain. They are not to speak in church, and if they have a question about scripture, they can ask their husbands at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
No, the harsh treatment of women predates all of these bozos - Muslim, Jew, Christian, Confucian, etc. - by several thousand years at least. Men are just not terribly bright, and the extra testosterone doesn't help.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
Writing books to formalize their poor behavior just suggests that at some point they started feeling pangs of guilt about it, and we can't have that.
Do you really want to make that claim? Think very carefully about this.Quote:
Nowhere does the Bible teach that husbands are allowed to beat their wives if they don't do has he asks or jump at his every command.
I stand by what I said about fifty posts back: all of these books are amazingly identical in their rather uncomfortable proclamations. What distinguishes the religions more is which passages are being actively ignored, as they are clearly being ignored by those women pastors you cited - and much to their credit, I might add.
how about good ole fashion stonings....Quote:
Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43
here's an entire page of scriptures devoted to violence against women in the bible.Quote:
Deuteronomy 22:16-21 (New International Version)
16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver [a] and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
The Dark Bible
Women's Inferior Status
The Biblical view of women
http://nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm
I'm not sure why some people continue to debate in this manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM229
1) YOU said that that the bad reputation that Muslims get is due to recent fundamentalist violence.
2) I corrected your statement by giving you facts and dates to show that violence with (and through) Muslim occupation is well documented throughout history...AND I prefaced that statement with the fact that Christianity is also filled with episodes of violent treatment towards others.
3) Now you respond with "And the Holy Roman Empire was innocent of such a thing?"....Well...since I already touched on that and since this is an obvious rabbit trail...I wont bother to answer it again and we are back to just your admission that your original premise was faulty.
4) It seems that too many posters refuse to debate Muslim theology on its on merit...and instead want to deflect from it by muddling the topic with Christian theology. Really, that isnt possible, and the two should be discussed seperately or you have these type of straw-man fallacies to deal with and nothing really ever gets deeply discussed. (Just an opportunity for the anti-god crowd to enable each other and say that all religion is bad without the benefit of true discussion).
"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," Obama said, weighing in for the first time on a controversy that has riven New York and the nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace108
"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."
"Religious freedom" my ass.
No one said moslems don’t have the right to practice their religion, there are dozens of mosques in NYC.
I wonder how New Yorkers feel
http://bigjournalism.com/files/2010/...stsNewYork.jpg
I like how Obama and his pinhead friends only acknowledges that we have freedom of religion is when it applies to muslim. To Obama, the rest of the democrats, and all their friends freedom only applies to muslims (including battlefield terrorists, for whom the constitution doesn't apply to), illegal aliens, and themselves. For everyone else they act as if the constitution doesn't existQuote:
Originally Posted by Killer
@#$% all the happy talk and comparative religion debate. Newt speaks...
http://www.newt.org/newt-direct/newt...ar-ground-zero
Newt Gingrich Statement on Proposed Mosque/Islamic Community Center near Ground Zero
July 21, 2010 6pm
There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over.
The proposed "Cordoba House" overlooking the World Trade Center site – where a group of jihadists killed over 3000 Americans and destroyed one of our most famous landmarks - is a test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites. For example, most of them don’t understand that “Cordoba House” is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world’s third-largest mosque complex.
Today, some of the Mosque’s backers insist this term is being used to "symbolize interfaith cooperation" when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest. It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way.
Those Islamists and their apologists who argue for "religious toleration" are arrogantly dishonest. They ignore the fact that more than 100 mosques already exist in New York City. Meanwhile, there are no churches or synagogues in all of Saudi Arabia. In fact no Christian or Jew can even enter Mecca.
And they lecture us about tolerance.
If the people behind the Cordoba House were serious about religious toleration, they would be imploring the Saudis, as fellow Muslims, to immediately open up Mecca to all and immediately announce their intention to allow non-Muslim houses of worship in the Kingdom. They should be asked by the news media if they would be willing to lead such a campaign.
We have not been able to rebuild the World Trade Center in nine years. Now we are being told a 13 story, $100 million megamosque will be built within a year overlooking the site of the most devastating surprise attack in American history.
Finally where is the money coming from? The people behind the Cordoba House refuse to reveal all their funding sources.
America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization. Sadly, too many of our elites are the willing apologists for those who would destroy them if they could.
No mosque.
No self deception.
No surrender.
The time to take a stand is now - at this site on this issue.
Further to the subject...
islam is satanic