Can We Give Khan, Weidl, and Tomlin more than 3 draft?

This upcoming draft will be their 3rd working together. Most of us know a rebuild takes time. How much time is a very honest and real question. Before the 2023 draft cycle, the team was under different management all the way up. We got used to how that group did things. This is different and I don't think any of us really know what to expect moving forward with this group. We can speculate and predict, but we don't know.

I think the rule of 3 is a good standard. It typically takes a rookie 3 seasons to either become part of the roster or he's allowed to walk. Is this a fair rule to use for those in charge of building the team to compete? Meaning, if there is not marked improvement from year 1 to year 3, it's time to start finding replacements. This draft and season will be #3.

What say you?

A 3rd good draft would go a long way for sure. A part of the reason why Pittsburgh is where they are is because of Colbert's below average drafting.

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Originally Posted by Born2Steel

This upcoming draft will be their 3rd working together. Most of us know a rebuild takes time. How much time is a very honest and real question. Before the 2023 draft cycle, the team was under different management all the way up. We got used to how that group did things. This is different and I don't think any of us really know what to expect moving forward with this group. We can speculate and predict, but we don't know.

I think the rule of 3 is a good standard. It typically takes a rookie 3 seasons to either become part of the roster or he's allowed to walk. Is this a fair rule to use for those in charge of building the team to compete? Meaning, if there is not marked improvement from year 1 to year 3, it's time to start finding replacements. This draft and season will be #3.

What say you?

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I think a 3-year evaluation of this management trio is a good idea, but considering that two of the three years have already gone by and that during those two years we have gone backwards in our QB situation to the point where we currently have NO quarterbacks under contract for 2025, I'm not sure that this final year is going to produce results that will vindicate anyone.

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Originally Posted by Voice of Reason

I think a 3-year evaluation of this management trio is a good idea, but considering that two of the three years have already gone by and that during those two years we have gone backwards in our QB situation to the point where we currently have NO quarterbacks under contract for 2025, I'm not sure that this final year is going to produce results that will vindicate anyone.

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But they started and played with a QB drafted by the previous management trio.

You might have heard of him?

Depends on how you define “better”.

I’ll take Khans drafts as FA acquisitions over later term Colbert.

But Khan also hasn’t had to pay most of his cap to a QB yet so he’s playing on easy mode for cap $$$.

The roster has improved each year.

But, as each playoff game is hammering home, without a QB you’re not playing at the same level as teams that do.

3 drafts or 100 drafts? Will not make a difference if Tomlin's hired staff can't coach a single player up, build on their skills & athleticism & put them in situations that enhance their talents & strengths. Every draft pick is a "DART THROW". Every single one of them. Troy was a dart throw, Ben was a dart throw, Decastro dart throw, Lambert a dart throw & Joe Greene was a dart throw.

The last 2 years of Khan's drafts & Colbert's "term" (last few year's draft picks), ALL a DART THROW. The difference is in Colbert's early years & Steeler drafts before that (back to 71/72ish) we had "hall-of-fame" coaches that could take a Troy, Ben, Fanaca, Hampton, just about every linebacker drafted, Aaron Jones, Burress, AB, Brett Keisel etc, etc, etc, & coach them up into ascending players. Cowher & Noll's coaches could "coach up" players to show improvement in season (game #1 to the last game of the season) & from one season to the other. (MULTIPLE players per those year's rosters had ascending careers) All of our SB & best teams had almost full "starting" rosters of "ASCENDING" players. Since Cowhers coaches retired, got pushed out or in Darrel Drakes case, passed on, not a single one of Tomlin's hired coaches or coordinators (NOT ONE, not even a lucky shot in the dark) has coached a SINGLE player up. Every year almost the entire roster's "play" goes backwards. Descending careers or coached out of the league are a Tomlin hired coaches specialty. You'd be astonished, if you went back & looked at the names of all the RBs, CBs & TEs we've had since Cowher's coaches left, that have had descending career paths. All of them. I'm willing to bet you'd be hard pressed to come up with just ONE player with an ascending career?

Outside of T.J, Cam & Boswell, we haven't had a single player, not a single one, that I can say has been coached to perform better than when we got them. Maybe, if I squint real hard I can agree with Warren being on an even plane career path, maybe. Think about it: Dan Moore, Broderick Jones, JuJu, Claypool, Jesse James, Muth, Benton, Leal, Loudermilk, Terrell Edmonds, Devin Bush, Artie Burns, Jarvis Jones, James Pierre, Mason Rudolph, Duck, Picket, Trubisky, Russel Wilson, our last punter (so bad, I forgot his name), I can name 10s to 100s of roster-ed players; ILBs, Running Backs, & secondary player dart throw, draft picks or FAs that have been coached backwards (Dumbed down). I can name multiple signed vet free agents (every one of them) we've signed that we dumbed down or pushed into retirement as well. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PLAYER a Tomlin hired coach has touched has ended up descending talent wise or ruined.

All the above is exactly the reason we had to turn over half the roster the last 2-3 years. WE NEVER had that kind of roster turnover before Tomlin's coachesg were hired. Seems like he hired friends, acquaintances, grocery bagg'ers & the unemployed, but never anyone with a successful coaching resume.

Tomlin's team manager skills, the drafting, game-planning etc. ISN'T the problem. Tomlin's hiring of coaches is what has killed the franchise, the Steeler mantra & our "yinzer" love, dedication & faith in this team. We're no better right now than the Cleveland, Carolina or Arizona organizations. Steeler Nation faith & hopes for the future is on par with those team's fan-bases. That's how bad it has gotten. Tell me I'm wrong??? Or name some players who you believe had ascending careers under a Tomlin hired coach or coordinator???

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Originally Posted by Steelersfan

3 drafts or 100 drafts? Won't make a difference if your coaches can't coach a single player up. Every draft pick is a "DART THROW". Every single one of them. Troy was a dart throw, Ben was a dart throw, Lanbert a dart throw & Joe Greene was a dart throw.

The last 2 years of Khan's drafts & Colbert's "term" (last few year's draft picks), ALL a DART THROW. The difference is Colbert's early years & before drafts before that (all Steeler drafts back to 71/72ish) we had "hall-of-fame" coaches that could take Troy, Ben, Fanaca, Hampton, just about every linebacker, Aaron Jones, Burress, AB, Brett Keisel etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, & coach them up. Cowher & Noll's coaches could coach "up" players to improve from game #1 to the end of the season & from one season to the other. (MULTIPLE players per those year's rosters had ascending careers) All of our SB & best teams had almost full "starting" rosters of "ASCENDING" players. Since Cowhers coaches retired, got pushed out or in Darrel Drakes case, passed on, not a one of Tomlin's hired coaches or coordinators (NOT ONE, he never even got lucky once) has coached a SINGLE player up. Every year almost the entire roster's "play" goes backwards. Descending careers or out of the league are a Tomlin's coaches specialty. (you would astonished if you went back & looked at the names of all the RB, CB & TE we had since a Cowher coach left. Bet you can find ONE ascending player)

Outside of T.J, Cam & Boswell, we haven't had a single player, not a single one that I can say has been coached well. If I squint real hard I can maybe agree with Warren on an even plain career path, maybe. Think about it: Dan Moore, Brodrick Jones, JuJu, Claypool, Jesse James, Muth, Benton, Leal, Loudermilk, Terrel Edmonds, Devin Bush, Artie Burns, Jarvis Jones, James Pierre, Mason Rudolph, Duck, Picket, Trubisky, Russel Wilson, our last punter (so bad, forot his name), I can name 10s to 100s of ILBs, Running Backs, & secondary player dart throw rookies draft picks or FA that have been coached backwards. Dumbed down! I can name multiple signed vet free agents (evry one of them) we've signed that we dumbed down of pushed into retirement too. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PLAYER a Tomlin coach hire has touched has been ruined.

All the above is the same reason we had to go out and turn over almost exactly half the roster the last 2-3 years. WE NEVER DID THAT before Tomlin's coaching hires. He hires his friends, acquaintances, grocery bagg'ers & homeless or unemployed people that hang around pee wee league fields.

Tomlin's manager skills, drafting, game-planning etc. ISN'T the problem. Tomlin's hiring of coaches is what killed our franchise & our "yinzer" desire & faith in this team. We are no better right now than Cleveland, Carolina & Arizona. Steeler Nation has the same hope as those organization's fanbases, that's how bad it has gotten. Tell me I'm wrong??? Or name me some players who had ascending careers???

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I'd say we're a hell of a lot better off than Cleveland, Carolina, and Arizona.

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Originally Posted by Steelersfan

3 drafts or 100 drafts? Won't make a difference if your coaches can't coach a single player up. Every draft pick is a "DART THROW". Every single one of them. Troy was a dart throw, Ben was a dart throw, Lanbert a dart throw & Joe Greene was a dart throw.

The last 2 years of Khan's drafts & Colbert's "term" (last few year's draft picks), ALL a DART THROW. The difference is Colbert's early years & before drafts before that (all Steeler drafts back to 71/72ish) we had "hall-of-fame" coaches that could take Troy, Ben, Fanaca, Hampton, just about every linebacker, Aaron Jones, Burress, AB, Brett Keisel etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, & coach them up. Cowher & Noll's coaches could coach "up" players to improve from game #1 to the end of the season & from one season to the other. (MULTIPLE players per those year's rosters had ascending careers) All of our SB & best teams had almost full "starting" rosters of "ASCENDING" players. Since Cowhers coaches retired, got pushed out or in Darrel Drakes case, passed on, not a one of Tomlin's hired coaches or coordinators (NOT ONE, he never even got lucky once) has coached a SINGLE player up. Every year almost the entire roster's "play" goes backwards. Descending careers or out of the league are a Tomlin's coaches specialty. (you would astonished if you went back & looked at the names of all the RB, CB & TE we had since a Cowher coach left. Bet you can find ONE ascending player)

Outside of T.J, Cam & Boswell, we haven't had a single player, not a single one that I can say has been coached well. If I squint real hard I can maybe agree with Warren on an even plain career path, maybe. Think about it: Dan Moore, Brodrick Jones, JuJu, Claypool, Jesse James, Muth, Benton, Leal, Loudermilk, Terrel Edmonds, Devin Bush, Artie Burns, Jarvis Jones, James Pierre, Mason Rudolph, Duck, Picket, Trubisky, Russel Wilson, our last punter (so bad, forot his name), I can name 10s to 100s of ILBs, Running Backs, & secondary player dart throw rookies draft picks or FA that have been coached backwards. Dumbed down! I can name multiple signed vet free agents (evry one of them) we've signed that we dumbed down of pushed into retirement too. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PLAYER a Tomlin coach hire has touched has been ruined.

All the above is the same reason we had to go out and turn over almost exactly half the roster the last 2-3 years. WE NEVER DID THAT before Tomlin's coaching hires. He hires his friends, acquaintances, grocery bagg'ers & homeless or unemployed people that hang around pee wee league fields.

Tomlin's manager skills, drafting, game-planning etc. ISN'T the problem. Tomlin's hiring of coaches is what killed our franchise & our "yinzer" desire & faith in this team. We are no better right now than Cleveland, Carolina & Arizona. Steeler Nation has the same hope as those organization's fanbases, that's how bad it has gotten. Tell me I'm wrong??? Or name me some players who had ascending careers???

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Timmons
Harrison
Clark
Polamalu
BigBen
Pouncey
DeCastro
AV
Bell
AB
Heath!
JuJu
Vince Williams
Big Ragu
Watt
Highsmith
Dupree
Cam
Tuitt
Even the ones that came in under Cowher, played their careers under Tomlin.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

Depends on how you define “better”.

I’ll take Khans drafts as FA acquisitions over later term Colbert.

But Khan also hasn’t had to pay most of his cap to a QB yet so he’s playing on easy mode for cap $$$.

The roster has improved each year.

But, as each playoff game is hammering home, without a QB you’re not playing at the same level as teams that do.

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I hope Khan finds that $50M/year franchise QB. And soon.

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Originally Posted by oneforthetoe

But they started and played with a QB drafted by the previous management trio.

You might have heard of him?

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But after one year they replaced that QB and his understudy with two QB's that performed no better, and that they did not have under contract beyond 2024.

Well, we know over the next 5 years if that was a mistake won't we. Kenny becomes a good too great starting QB in the league, or he doesn't. Can't use Tomiln or Canada as excuse for his entire career. If he spends the next rest of his career as a backup it is on him.

Of course, there is no shame in being career NFL backup. We fans tend to look at career backup players as "losers" but even making an NFL roster and remaining on it or 4 or 5 year sis a pretty exclusive club. Not a bad way to spend the early part of your life.

But as for Kenny. No excuses going forward.

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Originally Posted by Born2Steel

I hope Khan finds that $50M/year franchise QB. And soon.

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And hopefully they won't have to pay him that kind of money for 4-5 seasons.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I'd say we're a hell of a lot better off than Cleveland, Carolina, and Arizona.

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Maybe, but what I said was: our fan-base's faith & outlook for next season & the future, with this current Tomlin hired staff, is on par with their fans outlook/perspective.

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Originally Posted by Born2Steel

Timmons
Harrison
Clark
Polamalu
BigBen
Pouncey
DeCastro
AV
Bell
AB
Heath!
JuJu
Vince Williams
Big Ragu
Watt
Highsmith
Dupree
Cam
Tuitt
Even the ones that came in under Cowher, played their careers under Tomlin.

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Would you believe me if I told you that your list is totally off. Not a one player fits the bill. I didn't say under Tomlin. I specifically stated under Tomlin hired coaches. Tomlin inherited Cowhers coaches & he had success & won with those players that were being coached to improve & used to their strengths. Tomlin had Cowhers coaches for quite a few years. I'm talking about the last 5-6 years, since Cowhers coaches moved on. Once those well coached good players moved on, their replacements have ALL trended down.

You have JuJu on that list, nope. JuJu best year was his first year. Descended downhill from there, just like Claypool, DJ Johnson, George Pickens, Muth, Najee, Dan Moore, on & on, etc., etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by oneforthetoe

Well, we know over the next 5 years if that was a mistake won't we. Kenny becomes a good too great starting QB in the league, or he doesn't. Can't use Tomiln or Canada as excuse for his entire career. If he spends the next rest of his career as a backup it is on him.

Of course, there is no shame in being career NFL backup. We fans tend to look at career backup players as "losers" but even making an NFL roster and remaining on it or 4 or 5 year sis a pretty exclusive club. Not a bad way to spend the early part of your life.

But as for Kenny. No excuses going forward.

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The Pickett bandwagon was over a long time ago. He is not a top 15 QB which means he needs to find the best team in the NFL and still need luck to win in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Steelersfan

Would you believe me if I told you that your list is totally off. No a one player fits the bill. I didn't say under Tomlin. I specifically stated under Tomlin hired coaches. Tomlin inherited Cowhers coaches & he had success & won with those players that were being coached to improve & used to their strengths. Tomlin had Cowhers coaches for quite a few years. I'm talking about the last 5-6 years, since Cowhers coaches moved on. Once those well coached good players moved on, their replacements have ALL trended down.

You have JuJu on that list, nope. JuJu best year was his first year. Descended downhill from there, just like Claypool, DJ Johnson, George Pickens, Muth, Najee, Dan Moore, on & on, etc., etc. etc.

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Please go to Pro Football Reference and check you assumptions about a number of the players you just mentioned, particularly JuJu, (best TD year was his forth year, and his best yardage year was his second), and DJ Johnson, ( I’m assuming you mean Diontae Johnson and not the LB who plays for the Panthers)…….his best year was his third both TDs and yardage.

I'm not talking about PFR or PFF's agenda driven numbers for players, I'm talking about reality. JuJu's first year he came on like a gang buster "talent" wise. The entire world thought he was a superstar in the making. His play was never developed & he never ascended. The opposite happened, he wasn't coached by a WR guru and he fell off every year to the point we had to let him walk, because his rookie salary was too much for his production & the trejectory he was on. Just because he played more snaps & got more targets doesn't mean he developed into a better receiver. The eye test man, trust your eyes.

True Diontae Johnson hit a average WR career plane there for a bit, but you can't argue that he got better, because he didn't. Actually the year your cherry-picking, if I remember right, was the year he was dropping almost everything thrown to him. The running backwards, the attitude & the drops were never coached out of him & his whole career he was used like he was Randy Moss. Hes probably the shortest, smallest WR in history to run a corner end-zone fade as much as our coaching called it to him. He was a great route runner but he never was coached up to progress the rest of his game. The eye test, my friend. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not player bashing your hero's, I'm bashing the shit out of the loser coaches Tomlin has hired. They weren't just a poor choices here & there. Or just near the bottom of league. Every single one of them have been close to worst in THE HISTORY of the NFL bad. Our TE coach Alfredo Roberts (if you never heard of him, is because he SUCKS) every TE he coached he's ruined. Ask Rodney Williams, Jesse James, Zach Gentry, Kevin Rader, Eric Ebron. Muth looked like a superstar year one & has been on a Alfredo Roberts instilled JuJu, DJ Johnson career path ever since. And Darrell Washington wasn't coached to improve because he had 8 catches this year to last years 6 or some shit. Did your eyes see improvement in him??? Alfredo should of been fired with Canada. If he has to supply his own lunch & buy his own Gatorade from Giant Eagle & working for free, hes overpaid.

A good coach coached Heath not Tomlin's coaches like B2steel listed. Heath was coached & improved every year. Became an all pro & all star. He improved to be one of the best to wear the black & gold. That's the kinda coaches we need AT EVERY POSITION.

I would venture to say (and i have no proof other than reading between the lines). Khan is a numbers guy. A cap wizard is the term I've seen thrown around. By all accounts that i have read is that from a business side he is a genius, but its the football side that he lacks in. I don't know how much he knows about the game, but being the "new" guy as GM and not being a "football" guy i'm willing to bet that Tomlin has way more say in who is drafted. I am NOT saying Khan has nothing to do with it but i AM saying that Tomlin's fingerprint is more heavily in the draft than Khan. That means that this lands more on Tomlin and that more time probably is not going to yield better results. To me this is more proof that Tomlin's evaluation of talent is not really "PRO" level. That is compounded by his schemes and philosophies being outdated or simply not good (most recent scheme is the idea to crash Henry no matter what and "force" Lamar to beat us, which he did embarrassingly). So if you have a terrible scheme mixed with poor talent evaluation then your really screwed!!

First your looking for players to fit a scheme that will not produce great results to begin with (offense and defense). Next you add in that your most likely adding bad players to run the scheme cause your talent evaluation skills are lacking. third you lack quality coaching to improve your lower talent players that you picked for your bad scheme. Its a strikeout of epic proportions. This is why we keep having failed draft picks.

Its pretty stunning when you look at the first rd picks in Tomlin's career. I would venture to say that as the years go on he has had more say and the picks get worse and worse as that has happened. The last 10 years have produced 1 maybe 2 are what i would call a success. TJ for sure and Shazier most likely would have been. Dupree, Burns, Edmunds, bush, Najee, Pickett, Jones and Fautanu. Jones could still work out if they let him play his natural position and who knows on Fautanu at this point its to early to tell. The rest are simply terrible picks for a first rd. Even crap teams hit more often than that on 1st rd picks. we are currently looking at a roughly 10 percent success rate on our first rd picks as only one is still with the team and a quality player in the NFL.

So not sure what another draft is gonna do for this duo.

I guess we are forgetting that Andy Weidl exists and is employed by the team. And, apparently, Colbert had no say in who was drafted. Good to know.

Y'all have an intriguing ability to stretch the facts to fit.

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Originally Posted by Mojouw

I guess we are forgetting that Andy Weidl exists and is employed by the team. And, apparently, Colbert had no say in who was drafted. Good to know.

Y'all have an intriguing ability to stretch the facts to fit.

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Yeah Colbert for some reason has gone blameless. Draft philosophies have changed ever since he retired, proving that Colbert was the deciding factor when it comes to selecting picks. Not to say Tomlin did not have a voice in the room, but again, philosophies are completely different. The Najee draft for example, isn't happening under Khan IMO.

This team has two franchise talents. TJ Watt, and Cam Heyward. Both are 30 years or older. Go back as far as the 2015 draft. Not many players on 2nd contracts, and if they were/are, they aren't exactly game changers(ex: Freiermuth).

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Originally Posted by BlackAndGold

Yeah Colbert for some reason has gone blameless. Draft philosophies have changed ever since he retired, proving that Colbert was the deciding factor when it comes to selecting picks. Not to say Tomlin did not have a voice in the room, but again, philosophies are completely different. The Najee draft for example, isn't happening under Khan IMO.

This team has two franchise talents. TJ Watt, and Cam Heyward. Both are 30 years or older. Go back as far as the 2015 draft. Not many players on 2nd contracts, and if they were/are, they aren't exactly game changers(ex: Freiermuth).

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Colbert was clearly trying to squeeze one more playoff run around Roethlisberger’s final years.

Khan is conducting a rebuild without the associated tear down.

They’re both difficult tasks but out entirely different philosophies in place over the decision making process.