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View Full Version : What the heck was with that Jason Babin "sack" on Big Ben???



Psycho Ward 86
08-20-2011, 11:32 AM
"Roethlisberger was sacked again on the second drive, even though he was not brought down and got off the pass. The officials ruled that defensive end Jason Babin had the quarterback "in the grasp" and ruled him down. That's a phrase we haven't heard much for the past decade, but look for it to happen more often this season because of the new emphasis on safety. It could hurt quarterbacks such as Roethlisberger and Philadelphia's Michael Vick who are escape artists."

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11232/1168664-66-2.stm#ixzz1VaUGWDc6


I was unaware of this rule change, could someone explain it to the rest of us who don't understand?

Chidi29
08-20-2011, 01:30 PM
In the grasp?

It's when the ref believes that the defender has stopped the QB and the play without the QB actually going to the ground. The rule is used so defenders can't take free shots at a standing, defenseless QB.

steeldevil
08-20-2011, 01:42 PM
Yep new rule. It will hurt us because some of Ben's escapes will be called sacks. But it will help us because Ben should take less hits from it.

Another rule that could hurt defenses because they may get personal foul calls. You are always taught to bring the ball carrier to the ground or for the whistle. What if someone has the QB stood up and another defender goes in to hit him to the ground, you know finish the play, and the ref blows it dead for "in the grasp"right before the hit is made? Do they call a personal foul or let it go? I'm sure this will be another case of 'it depends on who the QB is'....

Chidi29
08-20-2011, 01:43 PM
In the grasp isn't a new rule. They're just going to be more liberal in calling it.

tihmtahm
08-20-2011, 01:50 PM
Yet another rule directed against the Steelers. Ben's trademark is getting out of those "in the gasp" situations.

Chidi29
08-20-2011, 01:56 PM
Yet another rule directed against the Steelers. Ben's trademark is getting out of those "in the gasp" situations.

No, it's to protect the immobile QBs who aren't going to be able to get away.

The league isn't out to get us.

GBMelBlount
08-20-2011, 02:11 PM
No, it's to protect the immobile QBs who aren't going to be able to get away.

The league isn't out to get us.

Agreed. In fact, with teams labeling the Steelers as dirty, I would not be surprised if there are other teams defenses who have Ben in their "cross hairs."

steelpride12
08-20-2011, 02:19 PM
It's a shame for QB's like Ben who def. has a chance of breaking free from a lot of these grasps and there was once I saw against the Eagles where he could have, but was never given a chance. Flag Football here we come.

Chidi29
08-20-2011, 02:22 PM
It's a shame for QB's like Ben who def. has a chance of breaking free from a lot of these grasps and there was once I saw against the Eagles where he could have, but was never given a chance. Flag Football here we come.

There isn't a clearly defined time for when the ref has to call it because it's a "grey area" rule in the first place. Big QBs like Ben could get more time. I still saw him escape in his usual way against Philly.

If the league wants the rule, they're not going to leave it out because it'll possibly hinder a small few. Most QBs aren't like Ben. Once a defender grabs on, they're not getting away.

steelpride12
08-20-2011, 02:28 PM
There isn't a clearly defined time for when the ref has to call it because it's a "grey area" rule in the first place. Big QBs like Ben could get more time. I still saw him escape in his usual way against Philly.

If the league wants the rule, they're not going to leave it out because it'll possibly hinder a small few. Most QBs aren't like Ben. Once a defender grabs on, they're not getting away.

True, but like you said there is no way my argument can win because it has a "gray area." I think any QB has the chance to get rid of the ball or break a tackle from a sack, but that is my 2 cents.

Steeltreal
08-20-2011, 02:33 PM
He will adjust plain and simple making him all that more dangerous.

stillers4me
08-20-2011, 02:34 PM
I understand the concept, but I still think it's going to hurt us. Ben gets alot of throws off while he's being mugged and now there's a good chance they won't even count.

86WARD
08-20-2011, 03:25 PM
It's definitely a good idea because it adds more "grey" to the game as well as more judgment calls...http://gridironfans.com/forums/images/smilies/default/icon_rolleyes.gif

XxKnightxX
08-20-2011, 04:24 PM
He will adjust plain and simple making him all that more dangerous.

Concussions, foot injuries, shoulder injuries , can be avoided if he just gets rid of the ball instead of holding on to it and taking hits that will just shorten his career. Oh yeah an dput emphasis on signing or drafting some damn good Lineman.

BigNastyDefense
08-20-2011, 04:26 PM
Just what the NFL needs, more judgement calls.

Brady, Manning, Brees, and lil Manning will all get in the grasp calls.

Ben and Vick will be allowed to be mauled.

Count Steeler
08-20-2011, 06:23 PM
Upon further review, Harrison will get fined for scaring Vick in the first quarter. Vick was off balance and stumbled backwards and fell. Harrison, although he did not touch Vick was in the vicinity and must have blown on him. This warrants a fine of $20,000 and a draft pick to the Pats*.

As far as the sack on Ben, the officials are to be commended for their judgment on this play.

Yours truly,

Roger "I don't know squat about football" Goodell.

ALLD
08-20-2011, 06:41 PM
It's a shame for QB's like Ben who def. has a chance of breaking free from a lot of these grasps and there was once I saw against the Eagles where he could have, but was never given a chance. Flag Football here we come.

I think you are wayyyy off-base with your "flag football" comment. It is heading more towards "two-hand toouch". : )

Butch
08-20-2011, 07:01 PM
I think you are wayyyy off-base with your "flag football" comment. It is heading more towards "two-hand toouch". : )

I think you're both wrong it will become a card game and the players will have to wear gloves to avoid cuts when handling the cards.

Count Steeler
08-20-2011, 07:04 PM
I think you're both wrong it will become a card game and the players will have to wear gloves to avoid cuts when handling the cards.

Virtual reality. Carpel tunnel syndrome will be the #1 injury in the NFL.

Chidi29
08-20-2011, 08:01 PM
True, but like you said there is no way my argument can win because it has a "gray area." I think any QB has the chance to get rid of the ball or break a tackle from a sack, but that is my 2 cents.

I came across the call again and the ref actually tried to do Ben a big favor in that instance. Because another Eagles' lineman was charging in free and ended up running over Ben. The ref saw that Ben was stood up and couldn't protect himself from the oncoming rusher and tried to stop the play.

I'll throw the picture up in a little bit.

NCSteeler
08-21-2011, 12:16 AM
I love more Grey area, just what we need more refs making judgement calls. GREAT.

Anyhow, irony is awesome too. Ben is in the GRASP and yet doesn't draw a penalty for an obvious late hit where the defender drove his helmet into Ben's hip. Nice, like I said I LOVE ref judgement calls.

fansince'76
08-21-2011, 01:40 AM
I love more Grey area, just what we need more refs making judgement calls. GREAT.

Anyhow, irony is awesome too. Ben is in the GRASP and yet doesn't draw a penalty for an obvious late hit where the defender drove his helmet into Ben's hip. Nice, like I said I LOVE ref judgement calls.

Yep, the renewed emphasis on this rule is certainly going to improve officiating. :sarcasm2:

HometownGal
08-21-2011, 07:31 AM
I understand the concept, but I still think it's going to hurt us. Ben gets alot of throws off while he's being mugged and now there's a good chance they won't even count.

I agree that it is definitely going to hurt us in the long run, as part of Ben's great playmaking abilities happen when he has defenders all over him. :doh:

Count Steeler
08-21-2011, 09:07 AM
I agree that it is definitely going to hurt us in the long run, as part of Ben's great playmaking abilities happen when he has defenders all over him. :doh:

I'm hoping our OLine makes these occurances fewer and farther between. Ben may not be able to play a full game without at least 1 hit. :chuckle:

LLT
08-21-2011, 09:26 AM
There isn't a clearly defined time for when the ref has to call it because it's a "grey area" rule in the first place. Big QBs like Ben could get more time. I still saw him escape in his usual way against Philly.

If the league wants the rule, they're not going to leave it out because it'll possibly hinder a small few. Most QBs aren't like Ben. Once a defender grabs on, they're not getting away.

As I have said before...the problem is not in these rules .....its a two pronged problem in the inforcement of these rules and the arbitrary penalty for breaking them.

So many of these rules fall into that "grey areas" that refs who have become more ineffective then ever before in the history of the game.
As far as the penatly aspect of breaking the rules...At some point Goodell is going to have to realize that if he isnt willing to create a panel to evaluate violations and penalties for the sheer integrity of the game...he needs to do it for the buffer affect it would have on his already tarnished reputation.

tube517
08-21-2011, 09:33 AM
In the grasp isn't a new rule. They're just going to be more liberal in calling it.

Yep, it's not a new rule but it should've been consistently called as when it first was implemented. Again, inconsistency in enforcing these rules is becoming a joke. Why, has it not been "liberally" called before??

Chidi29
08-21-2011, 05:37 PM
Here is the picture of what I was talking about.

http://i52.tinypic.com/1ifz8h.jpg

Even with my crappy cell phone picture, you can see the oncoming defender. The ref was trying to protect Ben. Why are you guys upset about that?

86WARD
08-21-2011, 05:39 PM
I don't think people are upset with that...but you and I both know there is going to come a time where "that defender" isn't going to be there and a whistle will get blown as Ben escapes a tackle with a wide open receiver down field.

Chidi29
08-21-2011, 05:54 PM
As I have said before...the problem is not in these rules .....its a two pronged problem in the inforcement of these rules and the arbitrary penalty for breaking them.

So many of these rules fall into that "grey areas" that refs who have become more ineffective then ever before in the history of the game.
As far as the penatly aspect of breaking the rules...At some point Goodell is going to have to realize that if he isnt willing to create a panel to evaluate violations and penalties for the sheer integrity of the game...he needs to do it for the buffer affect it would have on his already tarnished reputation.


The thing is, the league already has that. As a whole, I don't think fans and even some players like Troy, don't know the whole process.

After each game, the refs go back and review the game and the calls they did/didn't make. I remember watching it in a basketball documentary on ESPN during the summer.

A committee of at least former DB Merton Hanks and VP Ray Anderson, he also said that "other folks" are involved, take a look at any possible violations. Keep in mind this is a defensive player who is looking at this calls and calling them illegal.

After gathering all the information, Goodell makes a decision. I assume he has people like Anderson and other "cabinet" memebers so to speak who can call on in some cases.

After his decision, the player can appeal the ruling. I'd have to hunt for a link, but I know I read last year that if before Week 13, any player who appeals does not get the money taken out of his game check until the appeal is completed.

The appeals committee is made up of two men. Art Shell and Ted Cotrell, one player from each side of the ball and both guys have been coaches They were made up jointly by the NFL and the NFLPA so there is no conflict of interest or pressure to go with what the league ruled. They are able to reduce fines and in some cases, completely overrule Goodell and get rid of the fine entirely. This happened to Shaun Smith when his fine of 10K by the league was wiped away on his appeal.

There are plenty of departments the fine process goes through. Personally, make the system too big and you lose control. As much as you guys don't like him, the commish does need to have some degree of control. Otherwise, his position is useless.

It is not as simple as Goodell being the "judge, jury, and executioner".

EDIT: Link to where I pulled my info.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81c04d8f/article/anderson-process-to-determine-fines-is-fair-objective-

Chidi29
08-21-2011, 05:58 PM
I don't think people are upset with that...but you and I both know there is going to come a time where "that defender" isn't going to be there and a whistle will get blown as Ben escapes a tackle with a wide open receiver down field.

Yes, that unfortunately will happen from time to time.

But if it saves Ben from getting plastered by a 325 pound lineman running full speed, I can live with it. Lord knows that happens to Ben too often as it is.

Chidi29
08-21-2011, 05:58 PM
I don't think people are upset with that...but you and I both know there is going to come a time where "that defender" isn't going to be there and a whistle will get blown as Ben escapes a tackle with a wide open receiver down field.

And yes, people are upset with the call. That's why the thread was created, no?

Craic
08-21-2011, 06:15 PM
I don't think people are upset with that...but you and I both know there is going to come a time where "that defender" isn't going to be there and a whistle will get blown as Ben escapes a tackle with a wide open receiver down field.

And yet, if that call isn't made, and the receiver remains open, but Ben doesn't get the ball off and goes to the ground, three quarters of this forum will be screaming about how Goodell has it in for Ben and how the refs are so unfair.

In short: Whatever the refs do, if it doesn't end up with positive yardage for our team or all our players upright, the refs are wrong. Period. Like it or not, that is the mentality.

86WARD
08-21-2011, 07:01 PM
Right...so there is going to be times where the play could go either way. There's not a definitive rule, it's all open to interpretation by the officials...which is exactly what people don't want and what the league shouldn't want. More gray areas in the game leads to more problems, controversy and rule changes. It happens EVERY year...

Chidi29
08-21-2011, 07:05 PM
Right...so there is going to be times where the play could go either way. There's not a definitive rule, it's all open to interpretation by the officials...which is exactly what people don't want and what the league shouldn't want. More gray areas in the game leads to more problems, controversy and rule changes. It happens EVERY year...

How are you going to make this a definitive rule?

Craic
08-21-2011, 07:47 PM
Actually, there is gray in every rule. The question is just how much gray.

Two feet in? One foot in? Did he hold on to the ball? Did the ball go through the uprights, or just over the upright?

This rule has to be put in place because if they don't want the QB to be slammed to the ground, they have to throw a bone to the defense as well. Otherwise, you'll have a situation where a DL sheds his blocker, takes a step and meets the QB. Since he doesn't have the momentum to hit him and take him off his feet, he puts his shoulder into him and drives him backwards until the QB trips over his own feet.

So what do you think should happen? SHould the DL have to keep driving until the QB trips over his feet, and then risk a $50,000 fine because he ended up driving him to the ground? There's no use complaining about the fines. Get over it because the new Labor deal did not address it. THus, it is hear to stay. So either QB's get driven to the ground and fines mount, or they start calling "in the grasp" again.

I have a feeling the call will hurt us twice, maybe three times this year. It'll also probably save us at least a game if not two games without Ben.

86WARD
08-21-2011, 08:09 PM
Not all the rules are gray...two feet in is two feet in and complete. One foot in is incomplete. Not the same as in the grasp. In the grasp, not the same as a DL hitting a QB, not the same as a DL hitting the QB and driving him into the ground.

How do you make it definitive? No idea. I'm not saying there is a way to do that. Maybe there is...I'm saying when you start "creating" or deciding to enforce rules more frequently than they did in the past and that leave it up to the referee to decide on the field what is and isn't in the grasp, you're asking for problems. I'm not saying the rule isn't bad. I'm saying it will cause problems if they aren't consistent or if a red is trigger happy on the whistle or even slow on the whistle. What's fast and what's slow? Who knows...which is a problem.

I'd actually like to see how the rule reads...

Chidi29
08-21-2011, 08:31 PM
Not all the rules are gray...two feet in is two feet in and complete. One foot in is incomplete. Not the same as in the grasp. In the grasp, not the same as a DL hitting a QB, not the same as a DL hitting the QB and driving him into the ground.

How do you make it definitive? No idea. I'm not saying there is a way to do that. Maybe there is...I'm saying when you start "creating" or deciding to enforce rules more frequently than they did in the past and that leave it up to the referee to decide on the field what is and isn't in the grasp, you're asking for problems. I'm not saying the rule isn't bad. I'm saying it will cause problems if they aren't consistent or if a red is trigger happy on the whistle or even slow on the whistle. What's fast and what's slow? Who knows...which is a problem.

I'd actually like to see how the rule reads...

Isn't that part of the referee's job? To make those judgement calls?

This is what I could find on the rulebook on NFL.com.

Officials are to blow the play dead as soon as the quarterback is clearly in the grasp and control of any tackler, and his safety is in jeopardy.

On this play in question, Ben's safety was definitely in jeopardy and he did end up getting ran over by the DT.

86WARD
08-21-2011, 08:41 PM
On a consistent basis, yes. But if it's inconsistent, like I said, it'll be a problem.

Chidi29
08-21-2011, 08:46 PM
On a consistent basis, yes. But if it's inconsistent, like I said, it'll be a problem.

Do you think the Babin call was a good one?

Craic
08-22-2011, 12:57 AM
Not all the rules are gray...two feet in is two feet in and complete. One foot in is incomplete.
Nope. Two feet in is a COMPLETE judgment call. It has everything to do with camera angles, can the ref judge the placement of the foot compared to the line, etc. etc. Did his knee hit before or after his arm hit out of bounds, Was the right foot down, or did it lay just ontop the left foot and thus, not REALLY touch the turf? it is ALL judgment. If you don't believe me, go back and think about Ben's SB touchdown against hte Seahawks. Yeah, it was a different play, but either the ball crosses the plane, or it doesn't. NO judgment call right? Yeah, people are still complaining about it.


Not the same as in the grasp. In the grasp, not the same as a DL hitting a QB, not the same as a DL hitting the QB and driving him into the ground How do you make it definitive? No idea.

It could easily be the same. "Is the QB's momentum arrested?" "Does the defensive player have the QB's throwing arm pinned against his side?" etc. etc. Those are as much judgment calls as two feet in. Actually, they are easier since the action isn't as fast. The issue here is not STOPPING a QB from being hit, or from being knocked into the ground. Rather, it's to stop the situations where the QB is being mugged, but since he hasn't gone down yet, DB's and LB's are getting good shots at him. Or Big 300+ pound linemen are piling on trying to get him to go to the ground. Personally, I had NO problem with the call the other day.


I'm not saying there is a way to do that. Maybe there is...I'm saying when you start "creating" or deciding to enforce rules more frequently than they did in the past and that leave it up to the referee to decide on the field what is and isn't in the grasp, you're asking for problems.
That's a very fair assessment and I completely agree with you. Somehow though, I think that's going to be worked out a bit better this year.


I'm not saying the rule isn't bad. I'm saying it will cause problems if they aren't consistent or if a red is trigger happy on the whistle or even slow on the whistle. What's fast and what's slow? Who knows...which is a problem.

While that is true to a point, I don't see it being an issue between games. In baseball, the pitchers have to figure out where each ump's strike zone is. In Hockey, the players have to figure out how much the ref will let go before he calls a penalty. There are adjustments in every game. The key is not consistency from one game to the next, that's impossible. But rather, consistency within each game. As long as THAT is true, I have no problem with it.


I'd actually like to see how the rule reads...

That really is the crux of the whole thing. It's a shame the NFL doesn't allow their rulebook to be put out in the public without charging an arm and a leg.

GodfatherofSoul
08-23-2011, 03:29 PM
Probably just a "preseason" call. QBs with a rep for scrambling or escapism usually get a little time to break free.