Is John Clay a Future Diamond in the Rough?

[katmandu]

Good read... Very interesting prospect that is BADLY needed !

http://nicepickcowher.com/2011/07/29/the-end-of-the-steelers-goal-line-rushing-woes-is-john-clay-a-future-diamond-in-the-rough/ (http://nicepickcowher.com/2011/07/29/the-end-of-the-steelers-goal-line-rushing-woes-is-john-clay-a-future-diamond-in-the-rough/)

[Galax Steeler]

Not saying he wont be a good goal line back but looking at this video he has holes to run through that I could drive a truck through. It does look like he has nice feet. Take a look for yourself and give me your take.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG64tTWmGKw

[Chidi29]

A power back is a luxury and honestly, overrated. Especially when we're talking about a short-yardage back who we have in Redman.

Give me a strong front five that can get a push off the snap and I don't care who is in the backfield.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Love this pick up. I live in Wisconsin and everyone here is thrilled that he ended up with a team that can help him succeed as well.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I'm feeling Rashard Mendenhall, Isaac Redman, John Clay, and Baron Batch. I think Batch and Dwyer are going to really have to go at it for a roster spot, especially with Dwyer not looking so hot in conditioning it seems?

[Chidi29]

I still wish we'd re-sign Moore.

I'd go with Mendenhall, Redman, Moore, and Batch in my perfect world.

[TMC]

I am not a big John Clay fan and I would love to see them add another running back. Dwyer and Clay are pretty much the same animal with Dwyer probably being a little more athletic and a little better prospect. Clay is a big guy. He does not have great speed and has no burst in the open field. I think he ran a 4.8 which is bad. He also runs upright and does not drop his pads on contact well. He will run through open holes and arm tackles, but does not appear to be the bruiser his size would indicate. He comes out on passing downs, so his pass blocking and receiving are unknown, but they are probably very raw.

Big time college production that will most likely never cut it in the pros. I would love to be proved wrong, but all indicators (style, usage in college, metrics) indicate he won't make it.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I am not a big John Clay fan and I would love to see them add another running back. Dwyer and Clay are pretty much the same animal with Dwyer probably being a little more athletic and a little better prospect. Clay is a big guy. He does not have great speed and has no burst in the open field. I think he ran a 4.8 which is bad. He also runs upright and does not drop his pads on contact well. He will run through open holes and arm tackles, but does not appear to be the bruiser his size would indicate. He comes out on passing downs, so his pass blocking and receiving are unknown, but they are probably very raw.

Big time college production that will most likely never cut it in the pros. I would love to be proved wrong, but all indicators (style, usage in college, metrics) indicate he won't make it.

i dont know how much of this is personal knowledge or just draft prospect information, but i can tell you from watching every badger game the last 2 years including the Rose Bowl that Clay plays a lot faster than his sloppy combine drills and 40 yard dash would indicate. The kid isnt just big, he is BIG BIG. And he plays big against quite a few stifling defenses such as TCU, Iowa, Ohio State, etc. He is every bit of a bruiser as advertised.

[KeiselPower99]

Didnt he lost 40 pounds since the end of the season?

[TMC]

i dont know how much of this is personal knowledge or just draft prospect information, but i can tell you from watching every badger game the last 2 years including the Rose Bowl that Clay plays a lot faster than his sloppy combine drills and 40 yard dash would indicate. The kid isnt just big, he is BIG BIG. And he plays big against quite a few stifling defenses such as TCU, Iowa, Ohio State, etc. He is every bit of a bruiser as advertised.

I do not read draft prospect information as it can skew what you see with your own eyes. It gets you liking or disliking something you should not.

I cannot state I have watched two seasons of Clay's games. I have not. I know I have watched, at least, two games of his senior season and part of a third. That, combined with certain numbers coming from workouts/combine, is what I use to evaluate players. This is what I can tell you about Clay.
His timed 40-yard dash is putrid. His 4.83 forty would have been beaten by, at least, 15 defensive ends. Only 3 linebackers ran worse. On film, when he breaks the defense and gets on the backside of it, he can be ran down from behind and often is. He does not have an extra gear.

In addition, he has small hands which are not conducive to being a great receiving back. In 3 seasons, he had 11 receptions and often came off the field on passing downs, making him a limited open.

His COD numbers are also bad as are his explosion numbers. His film backs that up as he does not show the ability to make hard cuts and burst from dead stops. He needs a couple steps and is a guy that tends to roll downhill once he gets going. If you go back to the film, you will see most solid runs come on gaping holes. He does not shake guys in the backfield. He does not lower his pads and blow through guys. He plays tall.

Now, I could be wrong. Have been before, plenty of times. But, Clay is nothing more than a big man that the Badgers handed the football to and he ground out yards behind a line that opened massive holes. John Clay had 1,012 yards rushing on 187 carries. He was not the leading rusher for Wisconsin, James White was. White had less carries and more yards. If Wisconsin's 3rd RB had gained 4 more yards, they would have had 3-1,000 yard rushers on the season. That is not the back, that is absolutely the offensive line.

Pop in the tape of the Ohio State game. Clay is 5-10 yards down the field on most runs before anyone lays a hand on him. Anyone can rack up yards doing that. In the NFL, especially behind our line, he better run guys over or dodge them in the backfield.

When he hits the NFL turf, he will see he isn't behind that Wisconsin line anymore and that is where the rubber meets the road for NFL running backs.

Again, I could be wrong.....we will see.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I do not read draft prospect information as it can skew what you see with your own eyes. It gets you liking or disliking something you should not.

I cannot state I have watched two seasons of Clay's games. I have not. I know I have watched, at least, two games of his senior season and part of a third. That, combined with certain numbers coming from workouts/combine, is what I use to evaluate players. This is what I can tell you about Clay.
His timed 40-yard dash is putrid. His 4.83 forty would have been beaten by, at least, 15 defensive ends. Only 3 linebackers ran worse. On film, when he breaks the defense and gets on the backside of it, he can be ran down from behind and often is. He does not have an extra gear.

In addition, he has small hands which are not conducive to being a great receiving back. In 3 seasons, he had 11 receptions and often came off the field on passing downs, making him a limited open.

His COD numbers are also bad as are his explosion numbers. His film backs that up as he does not show the ability to make hard cuts and burst from dead stops. He needs a couple steps and is a guy that tends to roll downhill once he gets going. If you go back to the film, you will see most solid runs come on gaping holes. He does not shake guys in the backfield. He does not lower his pads and blow through guys. He plays tall.

Now, I could be wrong. Have been before, plenty of times. But, Clay is nothing more than a big man that the Badgers handed the football to and he ground out yards behind a line that opened massive holes. John Clay had 1,012 yards rushing on 187 carries. He was not the leading rusher for Wisconsin, James White was. White had less carries and more yards. If Wisconsin's 3rd RB had gained 4 more yards, they would have had 3-1,000 yard rushers on the season. That is not the back, that is absolutely the offensive line.

Pop in the tape of the Ohio State game. Clay is 5-10 yards down the field on most runs before anyone lays a hand on him. Anyone can rack up yards doing that. In the NFL, especially behind our line, he better run guys over or dodge them in the backfield.

When he hits the NFL turf, he will see he isn't behind that Wisconsin line anymore and that is where the rubber meets the road for NFL running backs.

Again, I could be wrong.....we will see.

Good points, im hoping for otherwise

[Chidi29]

And Clay left school early because he knew he was going to lose his job to more talented backs the Badgers had.

[Steeldude]

Give me a strong front five that can get a push off the snap and I don't care who is in the backfield.

this ^

[steelerfan]

It is a well known fact that Clay's biggest issue was his weight and lack of conditioning. I remember reading this some 3 years ago, and several times since. He just was a slacker cause he always got by with his natural talent and size in High School. And then with the Wisconsin O-Line which was probably a better overall starting unit then 50 % of the NFL O-Lines. Clay is gonna battle Dwyer for a spot on the practice squad cause I doubt either of them beats out Redmon. And Batch is gonna battle Moore for the 3rd down RB spot. That is if Moore is even brought back.

[SteelerSal]

I do not read draft prospect information as it can skew what you see with your own eyes. It gets you liking or disliking something you should not.

I cannot state I have watched two seasons of Clay's games. I have not. I know I have watched, at least, two games of his senior season and part of a third. That, combined with certain numbers coming from workouts/combine, is what I use to evaluate players. This is what I can tell you about Clay.
His timed 40-yard dash is putrid. His 4.83 forty would have been beaten by, at least, 15 defensive ends. Only 3 linebackers ran worse. On film, when he breaks the defense and gets on the backside of it, he can be ran down from behind and often is. He does not have an extra gear.

In addition, he has small hands which are not conducive to being a great receiving back. In 3 seasons, he had 11 receptions and often came off the field on passing downs, making him a limited open.

His COD numbers are also bad as are his explosion numbers. His film backs that up as he does not show the ability to make hard cuts and burst from dead stops. He needs a couple steps and is a guy that tends to roll downhill once he gets going. If you go back to the film, you will see most solid runs come on gaping holes. He does not shake guys in the backfield. He does not lower his pads and blow through guys. He plays tall.

Now, I could be wrong. Have been before, plenty of times. But, Clay is nothing more than a big man that the Badgers handed the football to and he ground out yards behind a line that opened massive holes. John Clay had 1,012 yards rushing on 187 carries. He was not the leading rusher for Wisconsin, James White was. White had less carries and more yards. If Wisconsin's 3rd RB had gained 4 more yards, they would have had 3-1,000 yard rushers on the season. That is not the back, that is absolutely the offensive line.

Pop in the tape of the Ohio State game. Clay is 5-10 yards down the field on most runs before anyone lays a hand on him. Anyone can rack up yards doing that. In the NFL, especially behind our line, he better run guys over or dodge them in the backfield.

When he hits the NFL turf, he will see he isn't behind that Wisconsin line anymore and that is where the rubber meets the road for NFL running backs.

Again, I could be wrong.....we will see.

Nice post. :thumbsup:

[86WARD]

A power back is a luxury and honestly, overrated. Especially when we're talking about a short-yardage back who we have in Redman.

Give me a strong front five that can get a push off the snap and I don't care who is in the backfield.

QFT!

[86WARD]

I still wish we'd re-sign Moore.

I'd go with Mendenhall, Redman, Moore, and Batch in my perfect world.

Definitely don't want Moore back. He hurt the team more than helped them the last couple seasons. He's a great blocker but that's about it. Redman pretty much replaced him in third down situations and did well. I'd love to have a more seasoned veteran in the backfield, but not Moore.

[TMC]

Clay is gonna battle Dwyer for a spot on the practice squad cause I doubt either of them beats out Redmon. And Batch is gonna battle Moore for the 3rd down RB spot. That is if Moore is even brought back.

I doubt Moore gets brought back. He really started to slow 2 seasons ago and it was pretty evident last year that he was losing it. Age has caught him. I would be pretty surprised if he was brought back.

I do think Clay may battle Dwyer and one may end up as the last RB on roster. The difference in Dwyer and Clay is minimal. Dwyer plays with better pad level and shows a little more power because of it. Both need time to get rolling and neither shows a lot of wiggle. Neither are receiving options. They are too similar. And, neither will touch Redman. If they are the challengers, it is not even close. Mendenhall is so far ahead of the group, it is not funny.

With that said, there seems to be a glut of veteran free agents out there and some decent backs are always released. I would prefer the Steelers find a complete back as their developmental guy. That way, if you lose your 3rd down back, he can fill in. You lose your backup, he can fill in. Bettis was pretty limited in his game (not a passing option). But, Bettis was special in that role. He could do things on first and second down that made 3rd down easier. I do not see that in Dwyer or Clay.

As an aside, this was a pretty weak draft at running back. Ingram was easily the most NFL ready of the bunch, but he was just over 5'9" and ran a 4.62. When you compare that to the draft that Mendy was in, Ingram may not go until late 2nd. It just was not strong and that filters down when you pick up FAs.

[Chidi29]

Definitely don't want Moore back. He hurt the team more than helped them the last couple seasons. He's a great blocker but that's about it. Redman pretty much replaced him in third down situations and did well. I'd love to have a more seasoned veteran in the backfield, but not Moore.

He's still an asset as a third down back and is one of the most underrated players in terms of heart and effort. That's something that Dwyer and Clay don't seem to have because of their weight issues.

[Chidi29]

With that said, there seems to be a glut of veteran free agents out there and some decent backs are always released. I would prefer the Steelers find a complete back as their developmental guy. That way, if you lose your 3rd down back, he can fill in. You lose your backup, he can fill in. Bettis was pretty limited in his game (not a passing option). But, Bettis was special in that role. He could do things on first and second down that made 3rd down easier. I do not see that in Dwyer or Clay.

As an aside, this was a pretty weak draft at running back. Ingram was easily the most NFL ready of the bunch, but he was just over 5'9" and ran a 4.62. When you compare that to the draft that Mendy was in, Ingram may not go until late 2nd. It just was not strong and that filters down when you pick up FAs.

I have to disagree with the idea of getting complete backs. That's not how the position works anymore. If you don't have that elite guy, it's all about getting a niche player. An inbetween the tackles runner or a third down back. Running backs don't last long in this league, and there's no need to tie up money into a guy who can suffer one major injury and never be the same. Or at best, be a two contract guy.

[tube517]

I'm feeling Rashard Mendenhall, Isaac Redman, John Clay, and Baron Batch. I think Batch and Dwyer are going to really have to go at it for a roster spot, especially with Dwyer not looking so hot in conditioning it seems?

I'd rather have Jon Kuhn, John Kuhn, J. Kuhn and John MF'n KUHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN NNNNN