PDA

View Full Version : Chavez isn't a dictator...



Godfather
06-19-2010, 11:21 AM
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKN226909620090422

cakmakli
06-20-2010, 09:58 AM
He's not. He's a DICKtator.

ricardisimo
06-21-2010, 01:00 PM
So, if his government arrests anyone (particularly anyone who's ever criticized him personally) he's an autocrat?

suitanim
06-21-2010, 01:12 PM
Chavez is about as popular in his country as Barry is here.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2010/0616/Hugo-Chavez-sees-support-fade-even-in-Venezuela-strongholds

Also, he seems to be using a sort of "Bu-bu-bu-Capitalism" that will really only work with the uneducated who can't and won't know any better. Which is where most of his popularity lies anyway.

I also find it interesting that the US firm of Penn, Schoen, and Berland did an exit poll after the last election and found Chavez to LOSE 59-41...the "official results" actually had him winning 58-41.

Regardless, this tin-pot ass clown's run has about run it's course. He's prolonging his own fall through currency manipulation, but that is simply delaying the inevitable.

ricardisimo
06-21-2010, 01:17 PM
Chavez is about as popular in his country as Barry is here.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2010/0616/Hugo-Chavez-sees-support-fade-even-in-Venezuela-strongholds

Also, he seems to be using a sort of "Bu-bu-bu-Capitalism" that will really only work with the uneducated who can't and won't know any better. Which is where most of his popularity lies anyway.

I also find it interesting that the US firm of Penn, Schoen, and Berland did an exit poll after the last election and found Chavez to LOSE 59-41...the "official results" actually had him winning 58-41.

Regardless, this tin-pot ass clown's run has about run it's course. He's prolonging his own fall through currency manipulation, but that is simply delaying the inevitable.

Wow... a US firm found Chavez to have lost an election that everyone else on the planet (including the opposition within Venezuela) saw as a landslide for Chavez. We know who to believe on that one, don't we? It's a good thing we have such intellectually disciplined people as you to keep us all on the straight and narrow.

suitanim
06-21-2010, 01:28 PM
Yes, it's crazy, isn't it? To take the word of a completely reputable, reliable firm with 30 years experience in the business over a fucking whackjob uber-controlling dictator busy running a banana Republic into the ground.

Moonbattery at it's finest!

The beauty is, the US doesn't even need to really do too much in this case to destabilize Venezuela...Chavez is doing a far better job than we could ever hope to do ourselves.

ricardisimo
06-21-2010, 02:08 PM
Yes, it's crazy, isn't it? To take the word of a completely reputable, reliable firm with 30 years experience in the business over a fucking whackjob uber-controlling dictator busy running a banana Republic into the ground.

Moonbattery at it's finest!

The beauty is, the US doesn't even need to really do too much in this case to destabilize Venezuela...Chavez is doing a far better job than we could ever hope to do ourselves.

You left out that the rest of the planet put their stamp of approval on the election, so they are all moonbats as well.

I'm glad to hear that Chavez is going to undo his own brutal dictatorship. That means that we can leave Venezuela alone, and focus on raping and pillaging elsewhere, correct?

suitanim
06-22-2010, 11:14 AM
Yes, because the US is certainly the country that does all the raping and pillaging.

The reality of the situation in Venezuela, as far as CIA conspiracies and the like is, well...nada. There really hasn't been any nefarious activity which originated in the US since the 80's in that country. Now Chavez has SAID that there has been, but there really hasn't. He's just lying because he hates the US worse than you do.

As far as the validity of the elections, well, Chavez a little smarter and a little less crazy than Kim Jong-il. NK takes it too far, claiming 99.9% victory with 100% of the population voting. Chavez hides his election fraud by making the numbers more plausible.

tony hipchest
06-22-2010, 07:48 PM
speaking of wacky conspiracy theories...

Chavez hides his election fraud by making the numbers more plausible.

nobody was as good at this as gw bush, though. that 50.5% > 49.5% was a doozie!

suitanim
06-22-2010, 08:37 PM
Knee slapping guffaws at this one...the resident board conspiracy nut who's backing, of all people, CHAVEZ, finds a co-conspirator all the way down at the end of the political poster bench?

Christ, I understand mutual confusion and anger makes for VERY strange bedfellows, but THIS is taking "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" a bit far. Two people are willingly and openly committing credibility Hari Kari all at once. By backing Hugo freaking Chavez! I love it! What's next, an "I love Kim Jong-il" social group?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2347/2218895943_9dce6a8be2.jpg

http://mavit.kabunzo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/hugo_chavez.jpg

http://image.24ur.com/media/images/600xX/Oct2007/60052376.jpg

ricardisimo
06-23-2010, 02:19 AM
Knee slapping guffaws at this one...the resident board conspiracy nut who's backing, of all people, CHAVEZ, finds a co-conspirator all the way down at the end of the political poster bench?

Christ, I understand mutual confusion and anger makes for VERY strange bedfellows, but THIS is taking "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" a bit far. Two people are willingly and openly committing credibility Hari Kari all at once. By backing Hugo freaking Chavez! I love it! What's next, an "I love Kim Jong-il" social group?

Umm... huh? Should I be sniffing glue again? What does this post mean? Evidently my conversational Trollish isn't what it should be.

What's with the pictures? I take it they are supposed to strengthen revs' argument, such as it is.

Thought I'd add some pics of my own, which will obviously likewise bolster my already overpowering argument:
http://wowcool.com/engine/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bush1_narrowweb__300x3282.jpg
http://www.politician-pictures.com/bird-blowing-bush.jpg
http://nakederic.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/funny-george-bush-picture.jpg

suitanim
06-23-2010, 03:43 PM
No content, just pictures.

But, then again, you're defending Chavez.

ricardisimo
06-23-2010, 06:10 PM
He's not. He's a DICKtator.

I think you mean "dick-tater":
http://www.ssrfanatic.com/forum/attachments/f39/82768d1255528069-real-dicktator-dick-tater.jpg
http://www.hollow-hill.com/sabina/images/dick-tater.jpg

ricardisimo
06-23-2010, 06:17 PM
No content, just pictures.

But, then again, you're defending Chavez.

Not my main point. I happen to think that people should focus on their own government, and they might start noticing some of the truly unsavory aspects of it, rather than being distracted by what other world leaders may or may not be doing.

As far as actually defending Chavez, I just happen to think that words mean things, and that applying the term "dictator" to Chavez (a democratically elected politician numerous times over) diminishes a particularly useful word, when there are many, many worthy candidates for the term.

suitanim
06-23-2010, 06:33 PM
Kim Jong-il was also "democratically elected"...by 99.8% of the 100% of the population who voted.

ricardisimo
06-24-2010, 03:40 AM
Kim Jong-il was also "democratically elected"...by 99.8% of the 100% of the population who voted.

The "population who voted" was the NK National Defense Commission, which is probably him and his three sons. I'd like to know where the .2% went between the four of them. One of them must have waivered a moment before voting. Where the hell did you get that figure anyhow? Links please.

The post for which he "campaigned" was chairman of the commission, not president nor premier, and certainly he didn't have to campaign to be named "Supreme Leader".

Chavez, on the other hand won 56% of the vote in 1998, with 6.5 million people voting. Then he won just shy of 60% of the vote under a new constitution in 2000. Then, of course he survived a US-backed coup in 2002, which only buoyed his popularity in the long run, allowing him also to survive the 2004 recall referendum, once again just shy of 60% of the voting public. All of these elections were monitored by numerous Venezuelan and international groups, none of whom voiced any concerns about their transparency, accuracy or legitimacy.

I hasten to point out that he was elected by his own people directly, and not by an electoral college comprised of party elites. And I also note that he was recalled thanks to a constitution which he helped to craft. Can you recall your president? Venezuelans can.

On the other hand, our thought police at Fox have indicated to us that he is a ruthless dictator. We don't need to know anything else, do we Randy? Intellectual discipline at its finest. You get a smiley.

suitanim
06-24-2010, 11:00 AM
All residents of North Korea are registered to vote. The entire population. I have absolutely no idea where you came up with your "facts" but they are 100% wrong. There are about 23 million people in NK. They vote in districts, and there are 687 districts. 99.98% of the population voted in those elections. Each district elects a representative to the Supreme People's Assembly. Then all 687 of those assembly members voted for Kim Jong-il. North Korea also has a 99% literacy rate, if we're going to run with their own numbers.

There, I feel better...you learned something new today.

Also, there was no "US run coup" in Venezuela. Chavez simply SAID there was. And, again, a completely unbiased and neutral firm with no skin in the game either way ran an exit poll that found Chavez LOSING soundly. This is the law of parsimony. You can spin, and you can twist, and you can deflect all you like, post up bogus numbers from a corrupt country run by a corrupt dictator all day long, but that doesn't change the facts at all. It looks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It's a duck...and no amount of contrarian "thought" or subversive readings cribbed from disenfranchised commies will change that.

I don't watch Fox New, either. So you're really batting .000 here...

ricardisimo
06-24-2010, 04:12 PM
All residents of North Korea are registered to vote. The entire population. I have absolutely no idea where you came up with your "facts" but they are 100% wrong. There are about 23 million people in NK. They vote in districts, and there are 687 districts. 99.98% of the population voted in those elections. Each district elects a representative to the Supreme People's Assembly. Then all 687 of those assembly members voted for Kim Jong-il. North Korea also has a 99% literacy rate, if we're going to run with their own numbers.

There, I feel better...you learned something new today.

Also, there was no "US run coup" in Venezuela. Chavez simply SAID there was. And, again, a completely unbiased and neutral firm with no skin in the game either way ran an exit poll that found Chavez LOSING soundly. This is the law of parsimony. You can spin, and you can twist, and you can deflect all you like, post up bogus numbers from a corrupt country run by a corrupt dictator all day long, but that doesn't change the facts at all. It looks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It's a duck...and no amount of contrarian "thought" or subversive readings cribbed from disenfranchised commies will change that.

I don't watch Fox New, either. So you're really batting .000 here...

I see. So North Korea has the same system we do: they also don't vote for their leaders directly. You're right... I learned something new (and depressing) today.

Penn Schoen Berland were hired by Coordinadora Democrática, the parent organization for the Venezuelan opposition parties, all receiving USAID money, and strangely enough using that money to hire a Texas marketing and PR firm with no connection whatsoever to Latin America, let alone Venezuela. Why didn't they hire a Venezuelan research firm? Have you learned something today?

As for the US' involvement:

Rear Admiral Carlos Molina, a central leader of the coup, later said that "We felt we were acting with US support . . . we agree that we can’t permit a communist government here. The US has not let us down yet."
Asst. Secretary of State Otto Reich, when asked if the US was involved, deflected by reminding everyone what a commie Chávez is, and how much was at stake in oil-rich Venezuela;
Bush administration officials openly admitted meeting with the coup leaders weeks ahead of time, evidently to discuss floral arrangements and wine/cheese pairings;
Jimmy Carter told Colombian newspaper El Tiempo that he believed that Washington knew about the abortive coup, and may have been involved.
Pedro Carmona went where exactly after being ousted by the Venezuelan people? That's right: Miami, where all Latin American terrorists and dictators retire.


But you're right. The US doesn't undermine democracies, we build them, like in Guatemala, Iran, Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, Iraq, etc. Whatever happened to your whole "It doesn't matter if you understand or approve of US foreign policy... the fact is it works" argument? It seems rather sheepish of you to become a denier. I've come to expect so much more from you.
:usa2:

st33lersguy
06-24-2010, 05:55 PM
left wing propaganda much

suitanim
06-25-2010, 07:49 AM
Those are like 3rd hand rumors. And there is a HUGE difference between the US KNOWING about a coup attempt and actually aiding it, let alone directing it.

It's been a long time since the US dabbled in obtrusive South American banana Republic policy. True, Chavez is a kook who sits on top of a lot of oil, and he really isn't fit to govern. He's also not friendly with the US government, attempts to undermine them any way he can (including financing terrorist states), usually by selecting the most dubious of trading partners and giving them favorable terms. The US would surely be better off with someone more stable in office in Venezuela, but they also learned their lessons from the 60's-80's.

Chavez will collapse under his own ineptitude.

Finally, two salient points about the exit poll. One: What Venezuelan firm would take that suicide mission? If they don't find for Chavez, they'll all be imprisoned. Two: What would a US firm stand to gain by openly showing it's biased or can be bought? The integrity of the firm, and the industry as a whole, would be shattered. This is a simple case of free market realities trumping communist propaganda and strong-arm tactics.

ricardisimo
06-25-2010, 04:14 PM
Those are like 3rd hand rumors. And there is a HUGE difference between the US KNOWING about a coup attempt and actually aiding it, let alone directing it.

It's been a long time since the US dabbled in obtrusive South American banana Republic policy. True, Chavez is a kook who sits on top of a lot of oil, and he really isn't fit to govern. He's also not friendly with the US government, attempts to undermine them any way he can (including financing terrorist states), usually by selecting the most dubious of trading partners and giving them favorable terms. The US would surely be better off with someone more stable in office in Venezuela, but they also learned their lessons from the 60's-80's.
Yes, very questionable trading partners, like the US, who tried to oust him from power. Personally I wouldn't sell a drop to anyone who tried overthrowing my democratically-elected government.

I'm assuming you're still referring to the Spanish indictment, because that's the only thing remotely resembling an actual accusation of "aiding terrorists". Unfortunately, considering that accusation died right where it started, since the judge refused to give any details, or name any names. Or perhaps you're still clinging to the magic laptop theory. Please elaborate, with links, please.


Chavez will collapse under his own ineptitude.
I've already said that with the success (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ve.html) of his antipoverty and literacy programs, he's undermining his own base of support, since, as you have said, only the poor and ignorant will vote for him. He should be working to make people poorer and less literate, don't you think?


Finally, two salient points about the exit poll. One: What Venezuelan firm would take that suicide mission? If they don't find for Chavez, they'll all be imprisoned. Two: What would a US firm stand to gain by openly showing it's biased or can be bought? The integrity of the firm, and the industry as a whole, would be shattered. This is a simple case of free market realities trumping communist propaganda and strong-arm tactics.
Who exactly do you think Chavez is sticking in prison? You would think he was doing midnight neighborhood sweeps with goon squads, the way you talk about it. My understanding is that he's put numerous 2002 coup plotters on trial (and he's also granted a blanket amnesty to a large number of them). And he also effectively shut down RCTV. In our country, the owners would have been lined up against a wall and shot had they endorsed a foreign coup attempt, so refusing to renew their broadcast license seems tame given our own treason laws.

Well over 80% of the media in Venezuela is privately owned, mostly by large corporations, and they are all openly and vocally anti-Chavistas. They do so without fear, because despite the rhetoric, Chavez can't stop them, so long as they keep to minimal guidelines (like not supporting US-backed military coups). Why would a privately-owned Venezuelan PR firm behave any differently than those media outlets? They're owned by the same people.

Since when does a PR firm reinventing reality for the benefit of their clients equate to shattered integrity? If anything, they got themselves dozens of new clients for succeeding in pulling a rabbit out of their hat. That's like saying the firms that represented Big Tobacco - squelching negative reports, inventing studies that showed cigarettes to be benign and nicotine not to be addictive - "shattered their integrity" by aggressively representing their clients interests. These people lie for a living, and wouldn't know how to tell the truth if they were paid to do so. What planet are you living on?

suitanim
06-25-2010, 06:26 PM
Sigh...

First off, the US is tossing Chavez a bone by buying so much oil. They are FAR more dependent on our dollars then we are on their oil. We also destabilize China by maintaining this arrangement with Chavez, although they are trying to up the ante. Problem is, China lacks the capabilities that we have at refining Venezuelan oil. We maintain the trade agreement with this crazy man at our pleasure and convenience.

But the crazy man likes to play games. He's increased trade with Iran, Cuba, and North Korea. He's visited and stated his support for Syria. He's a buddy of that even nuttier kook Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. FARC and ELN have a safe haven and friend in Chavez's Venezuela. Hezbollah uses Margarita island to operate criminal activity to raise funds (which won't bother an anti-Semite like yourself, but does bother many others).

As for the nonsense about him working against himself, that's ridiculous. He PROMISES people education and agrarian reform, and he eventually has to deliver on some of those promises or risk slipping even farther from his very tenuous 42% of support (HIS countries numbers, by the by, highly dubious as such). Therein lies the rub. His support is based on diminishing returns. The educated already don't like him, but don't dare push TOO hard. As the poor and under-educated are slowly (and I emphasize the word "slowly") given more opportunity and education, they, too, will learn. Knowledge is power. If he COULD keep them poor and stupid and voting for him blindly, he would...but he's not that apt at what he does, ergo, his government will collapse under it's own weight. But FIRST things will get worse, not better...all the "openness" you are touting will slip away as he struggles to hold onto his ill-gained power.

Finally, Google "Chavez Arrests Opposition" and your search will return 3.5 MILLION hits. Just a few I found:

2009 Raúl Baduel, a former defense minister-turned-Chávez-critic
2009 Manuel Rosales a former state governor who ran against Mr. Chávez (he fled)
2008 José Miguel Vivanco expelled from Venezuela at gunpoint last year after releasing a report critical of Mr. Chávez.
2010 Guillermo Zuloaga is the owner of Globovision, the only remaining anti-Chavez channel operating since RCTV was booted from Venezuelan airwaves in 2007
2010 Wilmer Azuaje and Oswaldo Alvarez Paz, opposition leaders detained for no reason
2003 Carlos Fernandez leader of a crippling two-month general strike that forced Venezuela to suspend crucial oil exports and severely damaged its fragile economy.
2003 Carlos Ortega, president of the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers, in hiding yesterday with a warrant out for his arrest.
2003 Mr Fernandez's arrest took place just days after the discovery of the bodies of three dissident soldiers and a young woman, who had disappeared over the weekend. The four victims, who had been shot dead, were found bound and gagged. Their bodies showed injuries consistent with torture.
The three men were part of a group of rebel officers who have declared themselves in rebellion against Mr Chavez, and their families immediately condemned their murders as politically inspired.
2010 Judge María Lourdes Afiuni issued a ruling in December that irked President Hugo Chávez, so sent his secret intelligence police to arrest her.
Since Judge Afiuni’s imprisonment, a dizzying sequence of other high-profile arrests has taken place, pointing to Mr. Chávez’s recent use of his security and intelligence apparatus to quash challenges to his grip on the country’s political institutions. The arrests come at a time of spreading public ire over an economy hobbled by electricity shortages and soaring inflation. Senior officials in Mr. Chávez’s government here, including Attorney General Luisa Ortega, say the most recent arrests were necessary to suppress conspiracies or to prosecute people whose comments were deemed offensive to Mr. Chávez.

And THAT was just from the first 4 articles.

Oh, and before Bunker Map tries to mock the google aspect of this, there is a HUGE difference between actually knowing what the fuck you are discussing and using the internet to source and cite facts that back up your knowledge, and not knowing shit and trying to cobble together some kind of half-assed backing for opinions based on ignorance and taking the opposite stance of people you dislike.

ricardisimo
06-26-2010, 02:40 AM
Sigh, indeed. First off, I grow weary of the name-calling. I'd get it under control if I were you, before you get yourself banned.

Secondly, you can ask Otto Reich - or better yet, the Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/toppartners.html) - who needs whom more between Venezuela and the US.

Thirdly, as to his supporting terrorist states... he has trade deals with the United States of America - rogue state numero uno. We do what we want, we invade who we want and we overthrow governments we do not like regularly. So, yes: he's keeping strange bedfellows, to say the least.

I find the Syria tidbit to be interesting. They are on the US' shitlist for their unwanted influence in Lebanon as well as for serving as a port of entry into Iraq for the insurgency. But for several large elephants crammed into the room, this might hold a drop of water. For starters, why is the country which has twice militarily invaded Lebanon (something Syria has never done) not on the same shitlist? Also, why are these insurgents passing through Syria into Iraq? What's so special about Iraq? Why don't they go to Monaco, or the Cayman Islands? You're entering tinfoil hat territory with the Isla Margarita thing... it's a tourist spot. Maybe they grow weed.

Fourthly, I don't know how to make sense of your argument regarding the effectiveness of his literacy and anti-poverty programs. So, he's "not that apt" at what he does (which is govern), so he won't be able to keep people poor and stupid. Which means that good governors worsen the plight of their governed, and bad ones improve it... did I get that right? Whatever, dude. Just look up the CIA World Factbook for every year since they started publishing it. The CIA do get their numbers wrong, but only to reinforce US policy (like the WMD nonsense in Iraq). In other words, if anything, the MVR are succeeding beyond even their own claims.

I have no idea what the "openness" comment is about.

The idea that Globovision is "the only remaining independent" anything at all is absurd in the extreme. From the Council on Hemisperic Affairs:

The unfettered freedom of Venezuela’s middle-class dominated media to pursue its own agenda is evidenced by the unrelenting degree to which it has attacked the democratically elected Chavez. Five of the major privately owned television channels and nine out of ten newspapers, including El Nacional and El Universal, are staunchly anti-Chávez.
These are stations that routinely bring in "experts" to speak glowingly of the assassination option for the opposition. Think about it... How long would the US tolerate Fox or NBC or the others news channels promoting the assassination of our president as a viable option? It's ridiculous.

Baduel was caught red-handed stealing $30 million, and mysteriously became a Chavez critic once arrested. Afiuni called a prisoner (who happened to be a millionaire banker) into her chambers and then released him out the back door, from which point he went directly to... where? That's right: Miami. Rosales fled to Peru with his stolen millions, and no doubt would have taken his illegal land appropriations if they would have fit onto the helicopter. Curiously, no one ever mentions the beneficiaries of the blanket amnesty issued after the failed coup. No one generalizes from that minutia to say that Chavez is a saint. Odd, that.

I'll repeat what I've said numerous times here and at SFF: World leaders are, by definition, thugs and slimeballs. I'm 100% confident that Hugo Chávez is no exception to this rule. However, anyone with eyes can see that he is so far down the thug hierarchy as to be an afterthought. Just compare his bodycount with his immediate neighbor, Álvaro Uribe. Why are we not discussing Uribe? Talk about an elephant in the room. Once again, intellectual discipline to the rescue.

Not only that, but people who are honest about their political convictions should always begin by trying to clean their own house first. US citizens should be focused on rooting out corruption, criminality and incompetence in their own government, which is both our political right and our moral obligation. I could talk about Uribe until I'm blue in the face, but I'd much rather work on corruption in my own hometown and Obama's violent sociopathic tendencies, and everything in between.

tony hipchest
06-26-2010, 02:52 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2i7FDqGrCU4/SL7uAJP4GzI/AAAAAAAABE8/E1GoScwXFxA/s320/platter.jpg

zulater
06-26-2010, 01:42 PM
speaking of wacky conspiracy theories...

Chavez hides his election fraud by making the numbers more plausible.

nobody was as good at this as gw bush, though. that 50.5% > 49.5% was a doozie!

Tony. Bush would have won in 2000 comfortably if only legally cast votes by eligible citizens would have been counted throughout the country. The Democratic ( Acorn ring a bell?) machine produces over 100% turnout in cities like Philadelphia for every presidential election. Dead people, voters who vote in multiple disticts, convicted felons, and illegal aliens vote almost exclusively Democratic. Oh and let's not forget repressed absentee ballots, which generally speaking are cast by our countries military usually swing right.

When it comes to cheating the Republicans have nothing on the Democrats Tony. Like him or hate him Bush was a duly elected President in 2 elections.

ricardisimo
06-26-2010, 05:05 PM
Tony. Bush would have won in 2000 comfortably if only legally cast votes by eligible citizens would have been counted throughout the country. The Democratic ( Acorn ring a bell?) machine produces over 100% turnout in cities like Philadelphia for every presidential election. Dead people, voters who vote in multiple disticts, convicted felons, and illegal aliens vote almost exclusively Democratic. Oh and let's not forget repressed absentee ballots, which generally speaking are cast by our countries military usually swing right.

When it comes to cheating the Republicans have nothing on the Democrats Tony. Like him or hate him Bush was a duly elected President in 2 elections.

That electoral inversion took place in 2000 is not in doubt, though. This speaks to the corruption of our system, rather than the corruption of just one party or one candidate. A system which constitutionally turns a majority into a minority is many things, but definitely not a democracy. Whatever one wants to call Venezuela, they are in theory and practice a democracy, and we are not. Just ask Vincent.

Vincent
06-26-2010, 06:24 PM
Also, he seems to be using a sort of "Bu-bu-bu-Capitalism" that will really only work with the uneducated who can't and won't know any better. Which is where most of his popularity lies anyway.

I also find it interesting that the US firm of Penn, Schoen, and Berland did an exit poll after the last election and found Chavez to LOSE 59-41...the "official results" actually had him winning 58-41.

We have theese here in Amereeca too.

ricardisimo
07-06-2010, 02:39 AM
I attended a screening of Oliver Stone's South of the Border, and got an education on what I have to assume were Tea Party tactics. My hat is off to these people. Deluded as they are, they are organized and dedicated to their vision of the corporate state.

The film was followed by a Q&A with the producers, and the first thing you hear is a man in the back screaming at the top of his lungs "This is bullshit! You have to tell both sides! You can't just tell one side!" He kept this up for several minutes, then left. Never mind that no filmmakers have any obligation to tell any side of the story, let alone both or all sides; nor that the basic point of the movie was to provide a counter to the MSM account of Chavez and the other members of Latin America's New Left.

There was a few minutes of discussion of the actual filmmaking process (this is an Industry town, after all) and some thank yous for the producers. Then this woman started talking about how she lived in Venezuela for 25 years, and she can tell us how awful Chavez' government is. Everything in the movie was a complete lie. All of the good things in Venezuela predate Chavez, and all of the bad things are his doing (this is almost verbatim, mind you). The murder rate is his doing, there is no support for him, everyone's afraid and all of his numbers are fictitious. Furthermore, her ex-husband started a petroleum-services company with thirty employees that the Chavez government just outright took away.

One of the producers looked quite intrigued by this last claim, and asked what she meant by "took it away". She kept repeating "they just took it, because it was successful". He asked several more questions, until she finally said, "yes, they nationalized it." "So he was compensated for his company?" "No, they just took it."

At this point, it was starting to occur to people that she was making the entire thing up, and the producer suggested that she talk this over with her ex-husband, who may be trying to hide income from her. Nationalization always involves compensation, normally with numerous hearings, negotiations and arbitration proceedings along the way... no exceptions. The owners might not be pleased with the nationalization, but it's not theft.

Then someone else in the back of the auditorium asked if she had seen the movie. They asked several times until she finally said "not yet, but I plan on watching the next show." She hadn't even seen the movie. She just came to disrupt the Q&A. Finally, this Basque guy (or at least that's what I surmised from his "Euskadi" shirt) started asking her in Spanish "What was the name of your husband's company?" He asked over and over until she admitted that she didn't speak Spanish. 25 years in Venezuela without speaking a lick of Spanish. He asked again in English and she said she couldn't remember.

The whole thing would just be extremely pathetic if it didn't mirror the sort of tactics that others have described to me as having occurred at health care town halls and immigration rallies. Again, there's something almost admirable about the willingness to make an idiot of yourself for what you believe. However, it evidently never popped into this woman's head that the BS weakens the anti-Chavez argument and strengthens his.

Anyhow, it made for an entertaining and educational evening, to say the least.

Godfather
07-07-2010, 07:30 PM
I attended a screening of Oliver Stone's South of the Border, and got an education on what I have to assume were Tea Party tactics. My hat is off to these people. Deluded as they are, they are organized and dedicated to their vision of the corporate state.


The Tea Party arose in opposition to TARP, bailouts, and the mandate to buy private health insurance. It's Organizing for America that is dedicated to corporate fascism.

ricardisimo
07-08-2010, 02:44 AM
Make no mistake: both parties are committed to corporate fascism.

To relate this back to the thread... If we lived in Venezuela, we could recall our crappy president right about now. But we don't. Given their standard of living, it's just as well, but in the meantime we could start instituting similar reforms to our own constitution and government. That's what people do in a democracy, anyhow.

suitanim
07-08-2010, 03:46 PM
The truly beautiful thing about all this is the FACT that you have the absolute and unequivocal freedom to be as misguided as you like, AND to proclaim your deluded "Earth is flat" rant at the top of your lungs in any fashion you so deem in this Country you hate so much. It's both instructive and compellingly illustrative concerning your general mentality when you, seemingly completely unaware of your own personal...um....conflicts, post a line like this: "Again, there's something almost admirable about the willingness to make an idiot of yourself for what you believe".

The IRONY of it all is, you would not enjoy these same freedoms in the state of Venezuela, especially if you were to publicly broadcast your anti-government views (although I suspect your blatant antisemitism would not only be tolerated, but welcomed), not to mention the fact that there would be no media outlets available to you any more in that Country where you could even do so, after they've all been shut down by Chavez. So you bash the country that let's you do what you would NOT be able to do in the Country you admire. Makes perfect sense........for you.

You are a walking parody, hypocrisy incarnate. In your view, the billions the US have helped and aided of the years are FAR overshadowed by the few million they've (inevitably, as an immature benign hyper-power is bound to do) hurt, while the very few that Chavez has actually aided far outweighs and occludes the millions he's hurt (he's too small potato's to do too much one way or the other). Talk about intellectual dishonesty!

You and Sean Penn are allowed to do and say as you like. But Spiccoli illustrates my point when he says things like: “Every day, this elected leader is called a dictator here, and we just accept it, and accept it” said Penn, “And this is mainstream media, who should — truly, there should be a bar by which one goes to prison for these kinds of lies.”

Notice how he openly espouses Chavez' techniques for dealing with dissenting views? You and him are welcome to that view...

Finally, don't ever spout your condescending bullshit to me again on the open boards, or address me as if I were somehow less than you, with your pedantic attempt to "scold me" for name calling, with your ridiculous attempt to act as "board enforcer". I'll tolerate your ignorance, and, like Sisyphus, attempt to correct it, but I won't put up with sophomoric nincompoops sporting misguided college freshman/Union beer hall mentalities and half-crazed views talking to me that way.

Your role here is board conspirator kook. Live it. Learn it. Love it. But don't confuse it with something serious and real.

suitanim
07-08-2010, 05:46 PM
The mods saved you, Ric. You win...I can't play Sisyphus any more with you. The world is flat and Chavez is great.

ricardisimo
07-08-2010, 11:17 PM
Yes, and what I wanted was to "win". I certainly didn't want to engage in a lively but civil debate, free of name-calling and bizarre antisemitism charges. I didn't want to entertain myself and others, and I definitely didn't want to dream that anyone's opinions might waver even slightly because of something I wrote here.

No, I just wanted to win. Yay for me.

suitanim
07-09-2010, 08:54 AM
I'm sorry you, and a few of your cabal, are so super sensitive...it makes this kind of thing impossible to do.

HometownGal
07-09-2010, 01:20 PM
The mods saved you, Ric. You win...I can't play Sisyphus any more with you. The world is flat and Chavez is great.

No one saved anyone so please knock it off.

I suggest both of you (and a couple of others around here) review our board COC - memorize it, learn it, live it. Our hands were tied at SF but they aren't here.

ricardisimo
08-12-2010, 05:31 PM
I'm not quite as gaga over Chavez as this guy, but it's refreshing to hear another view:



Hurrah for Hugo Chavez
by Mike Whitney | August 9, 2010 - 4:54pm
It's no fun being on Washington's enemies list. Just ask Hugo Chavez. Last week, the Venezuelan president had to cancel a trip to Cuba after he was told that a coup was underway and his life was in danger. The information came from an anonymous source who had delivered a similar warning prior to the failed coup in 2002. The letter said: “The execution phase is accelerating..… There is an agreement between Colombia and the US with two objectives: one is Mauricio and the other is the overthrow of the government.… They will hunt down ‘Mauricio’ (and) try to neutralize part of the Armed Forces.” ("Venezuela Pushes for Peace", Coral Wynter, Green Left News)

“Mauricio” is Chavez's codename. Whoever is behind the coup, wants to kill Chavez.

There's no way of knowing whether Chavez is really in danger or not, but we shouldn't be too surprised if he is. After all, the US claims it has the right to kill anyone it sees as a threat to its national security, and Chavez surely ranks high on its list of threats. So he's wise to be careful...

...

It's hard to believe that a two-year senator from Chicago with a background in "community organizing" presides over this elaborate and opaque system of imperial rule. He doesn't, of course. It's all a fake.The real leaders remain hidden behind the cloak of phony democratic institutions. Obama is merely a public relations hologram, a cheery frontman that conceals the machinations of a global Mafia. Other people--whoever they may be--control the levers of power moving the pieces as needed to assure the best outcome for themselves and their constituents. Now, it appears this shadow government has its eyes on Latin America once again. That's bad news for Chavez and anyone else who hoped that political instability and US black ops were a thing of the past.

...

The people of Venezuela are better off under Chavez; better fed, better educated, and with better access to medical care. The government safeguards their civil liberties and political activism continues to grow. Democracy is thriving in Venezuela. Hurrah for Hugo Chavez!

The full article is here (http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/mike-whitney/30635/hurrah-for-hugo-chavez).