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LLT
04-24-2011, 06:53 AM
On the Steelers: Williams not the cornerback the Steelers need
Sunday, April 24, 2011
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


Among the handful of players most often slotted for the Steelers in the mega million mock drafts out there is one Aaron Williams, a cornerback at Texas.

Williams looks like a stud at 6 feet, 204 pounds. He also is the slowest of the top 10 cornerbacks in the draft, and many believe his ultimate position will be at safety. So, why would a team that is desperate for a cornerback who can cover receivers go after one who likely fits better at safety



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11114/1141632-66-0.stm?cmpid=steelers.xml#ixzz1KRNnc8h8

solardave
04-24-2011, 07:24 AM
I agree he's not CB material. To slow.

LLT
04-24-2011, 08:30 AM
I agree he's not CB material. To slow.

He ran a 4.44 in the 40 at his Pro day...so he isnt slow. He does have problems in his transitions...and doesnt turn smoothly. I think that is why some draftniks think he is slow

solardave
04-24-2011, 08:38 AM
He ran a 4.44 in the 40 at his Pro day...so he isnt slow. He does have problems in his transitions...and doesnt turn smoothly. I think that is why some draftniks think he is slow
I wasn't aware he ran a 4.4, but even so fast doesn't always mean a player has "that burst" or good instincts. I just think if all the experts project him at safety why do we want to gamble on him as a corner.

Texasteel
04-24-2011, 08:41 AM
Seeing how we probably could use both a CB and a FS I really can't see Williams as a questionable pick. I don't agree that he is slow, but if he is not as fluid as we like he would still make a good safety, and a good safety has been and is still a 1st round prize. I have a feeling we well could go CB again later on either way.

Texasteel
04-24-2011, 08:43 AM
I wasn't aware he ran a 4.4, but even so fast doesn't always mean a player has "that burst" or good instincts. I just think if all the experts project him at safety why do we want to gamble on him as a corner.


If it will make you feel a little better dave, remember, we have some pretty good experts that will be sitting in our war room.

LLT
04-24-2011, 10:14 AM
Seeing how we probably could use both a CB and a FS I really can't see Williams as a questionable pick. I don't agree that he is slow, but if he is not as fluid as we like he would still make a good safety, and a good safety has been and is still a 1st round prize. I have a feeling we well could go CB again later on either way.

I wouldnt be upset with Williams as a pick....I just think its highly unlikely at this point.

I do get a kick out of some of these draft sites who are knocking Williams this year for being a "tweener"....when last year at this time they were saying that Earl Thomas (who could play FS/CB) was a STRONG prospect due to his "position flexibility".

steelerfan
04-24-2011, 11:16 AM
I wouldnt be upset with Williams as a pick....I just think its highly unlikely at this point.

I do get a kick out of some of these draft sites who are knocking Williams this year for being a "tweener"....when last year at this time they were saying that Earl Thomas (who could play FS/CB) was a STRONG prospect due to his "position flexibility".




Irony indeed Mr.LLT :-) And Aaron Williams has even better ST skills then Earl Thomas ever showed.

Steeldude
04-24-2011, 12:09 PM
He ran a 4.44 in the 40 at his Pro day...so he isnt slow. He does have problems in his transitions...and doesnt turn smoothly. I think that is why some draftniks think he is slow

but that was his pro day. at the combine his best run was 4.56

LLT
04-24-2011, 01:28 PM
but that was his pro day. at the combine his best run was 4.56

Not sure what you are getting at???

If he DID run a 4.44 ....then he CAN run a 4.44. Doesnt matter if it was at his Pro-day or at my Great-Aunt Ethell's house. :noidea:

steelerfan
04-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Not sure what you are getting at???

If he DID run a 4.44 ....then he CAN run a 4.44. Doesnt matter if it was at his Pro-day or at my Great-Aunt Ethell's house. :noidea:




I think his point was that the Texas watch holders might be a little bit quick on the trigger :-) I remember we took a WR from Ohio Stae ( Jeff Graham )...and he was credited at their Pro Day as running a 4.08 forty, and a 1.66 20 Yd dash ( LOL ) And ANY Steeler fan who watched him when he was here knows that he wasn't anywhere near those numbers. :-)

LLT
04-24-2011, 02:06 PM
I think his point was that the Texas watch holders might be a little bit quick on the trigger :-) I remember we took a WR from Ohio Stae ( Jeff Graham )...and he was credited at their Pro Day as running a 4.08 forty, and a 1.66 20 Yd dash ( LOL ) And ANY Steeler fan who watched him when he was here knows that he wasn't anywhere near those numbers. :-)

Actually, they originally clocked Williams at 4.39...


Another Texas cornerback, Aaron Williams, also bettered many of his numbers. Williams ran in the low-4.4s, timing as fast as 4.39 on some watches. He was also three pounds lighter (201) than his combine weight.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/nfl-draft-pro-days-2011/index.html

It was after watching the tape they were able to digitally figure his time at 4.44. So the 4.44 time is accurate.

Steeldude
04-25-2011, 01:09 AM
Not sure what you are getting at???

If he DID run a 4.44 ....then he CAN run a 4.44. Doesnt matter if it was at his Pro-day or at my Great-Aunt Ethell's house. :noidea:

combine is electronically timed. pro days are hand held stop watches. which i believe are times by the college(bias?). although scouts may bring stop watches.

steelreserve
04-25-2011, 01:35 AM
What the hell is anyone talking about 40 times for? Nobody beats a CB in the actual game because of a tenth of a second in 40 speed. If it was just a pure footrace, the DB backs up one step before the snap and he's neutralized the entire advantage. I mean, OK, if the guy ran a 4.9 I'd be worried, but splitting hairs over whether a guy runs a 4.4 or a 4.5 is retarded. It's about as dumb as the argument someone made a couple years ago that because Parker was fast, and momentum equals mass times speed, he should be one of the best power runners because he has high momentum (because we all know the way to play RB is to run straight into the pile at a dead sprint and collide blindly with whoever happens to be there).

Did you really see Gay and McFadden getting burned all the time by some guy who ran straight down the field and beat them by a half-step and caught a perfect throw? No, it was more like they got burned all the time because they didn't react quickly enough or they were playing soft coverage to begin with. How fast you can run forward in straight line while not trying to cover someone or beat coverage has absolutely no bearing on how good of a receiver or DB you are. I'd venture to say that if you're anywhere below a 4.6, your speed is fine. It's your reactions and quickness and how you play coverage -- in other words, knowing what the hell you're doing back there -- that makes you a good or a bad DB.

Having said that, it sounds like people are more worried about that aspect of this guy's skills than anything, which is why I'd also pass if it were my choice.

LLT
04-25-2011, 07:30 AM
combine is electronically timed. pro days are hand held stop watches. which i believe are times by the college(bias?). although scouts may bring stop watches.

As I said...

The hand held times WERE off....they had him timed at 4.39.

They later went back and watched it on tape and were able to give an accurate time of 4.44. That is the OFFICIAL time he had from the Pro-day.

Aussie_steeler
04-25-2011, 07:52 AM
I think the concern with pro day times is actually the track that they run on.

At the combine everyone is on the same surface. The playing field is level so to speak

At pro days the issue is that some surfaces are cushioned / springy and they actually assist the runner in converting energy into speed ( hence a fast track)

I go with the combine comparisons, and a player like Williams is marginally slower than some of the other corner prospects. Same for Johnny Patrick who I rated as a player but who timed poorly.

LLT
04-25-2011, 08:17 AM
I think the concern with pro day times is actually the track that they run on.

At the combine everyone is on the same surface. The playing field is level so to speak

At pro days the issue is that some surfaces are cushioned / springy and they actually assist the runner in converting energy into speed ( hence a fast track)

I go with the combine comparisons, and a player like Williams is marginally slower than some of the other corner prospects. Same for Johnny Patrick who I rated as a player but who timed poorly.

Generally the scouts understand that some of the tracks are "fast" or "slow" and they adjust accordingly. Thats why Texas Prospects like Curtis Brown and Sam Acho didnt bother to run. If they thought they could have raised their draft stock (even a couple of slots) by running on a fast track...they would have done it in a heartbeat...but they stood by their combine numbers becuase they knew that their times were just about right.

Those who "thought" they could run faster then they did at the combine (Chykie Brown...Aaron Williams...etc) ran again knowing that the fast track would be taken into consideration and their times would be adjusted. (One clock had Williams at 4.36!!!)

The scouts are rarely fooled by anything the schools are players can throw at them.

TMC
04-25-2011, 02:29 PM
What the hell is anyone talking about 40 times for? Nobody beats a CB in the actual game because of a tenth of a second in 40 speed. If it was just a pure footrace, the DB backs up one step before the snap and he's neutralized the entire advantage. I mean, OK, if the guy ran a 4.9 I'd be worried, but splitting hairs over whether a guy runs a 4.4 or a 4.5 is retarded. It's about as dumb as the argument someone made a couple years ago that because Parker was fast, and momentum equals mass times speed, he should be one of the best power runners because he has high momentum (because we all know the way to play RB is to run straight into the pile at a dead sprint and collide blindly with whoever happens to be there).

Did you really see Gay and McFadden getting burned all the time by some guy who ran straight down the field and beat them by a half-step and caught a perfect throw? No, it was more like they got burned all the time because they didn't react quickly enough or they were playing soft coverage to begin with. How fast you can run forward in straight line while not trying to cover someone or beat coverage has absolutely no bearing on how good of a receiver or DB you are. I'd venture to say that if you're anywhere below a 4.6, your speed is fine. It's your reactions and quickness and how you play coverage -- in other words, knowing what the hell you're doing back there -- that makes you a good or a bad DB.

Having said that, it sounds like people are more worried about that aspect of this guy's skills than anything, which is why I'd also pass if it were my choice.

Actually, forty times for corners may be the most important statistic IF they are outside or boundary guys. The key is not in their ability to run straight, the key is once they flip open and turn, IF they have the long speed to stay with receivers. Mike Wallace showed that all season. His elite speed put corners on notice. MANY corners were bailing off the snap on him, giving him bigger cushions, so he started eating them up short. Then, if they came in, he could beat them over the top. As the season wore on, you saw him running more slants and flags that allows him to eat into the cushion and then forces them to change direction and run him down. They couldn't. Why? Because they lacked the raw speed to run with him. Speed at corner is more important than any other position. Wide receiver would be next followed by your safeties.


Generally the scouts understand that some of the tracks are "fast" or "slow" and they adjust accordingly. Thats why Texas Prospects like Curtis Brown and Sam Acho didnt bother to run. If they thought they could have raised their draft stock (even a couple of slots) by running on a fast track...they would have done it in a heartbeat...but they stood by their combine numbers becuase they knew that their times were just about right.

Those who "thought" they could run faster then they did at the combine (Chykie Brown...Aaron Williams...etc) ran again knowing that the fast track would be taken into consideration and their times would be adjusted. (One clock had Williams at 4.36!!!)

The scouts are rarely fooled by anything the schools are players can throw at them.

The 4.36, 4.39, and 4.44 that is being reported for Williams are his stopwatch numbers, NOT adjusted for the fast Texas track. Word is that the adjustment can be anywhere from 0.05 to 0.1 depending on the team. On film, he is a 4.45 guy on a good day and normally plays as a 4.5 flat guy. That is not unreasonable for a corner. Asante Samuel was a 4.50 guy coming out. He did okay.

I think Williams is a zone corner. He does very well when he can drop and cover an area. He does not plant and drive as well as he could, but he is good enough there. He is a solid tackler that does not miss many. He is not great in man coverage. He does not use his hands well enough yet and once he is beaten, he does not have the burst at the end to close. If you beat him, it is 6. But, he could be an excellent corner in a system like the Tampa-2. He could play FS. In fact, if he were a sure fire FS, he may be the best FS in this draft. I think he goes in the 2nd. There are some corners that are more scheme diverse that should go ahead of him.

steelerfan
04-25-2011, 02:38 PM
Actually, forty times for corners may be the most important statistic IF they are outside or boundary guys. The key is not in their ability to run straight, the key is once they flip open and turn, IF they have the long speed to stay with receivers. Mike Wallace showed that all season. His elite speed put corners on notice. MANY corners were bailing off the snap on him, giving him bigger cushions, so he started eating them up short. Then, if they came in, he could beat them over the top. As the season wore on, you saw him running more slants and flags that allows him to eat into the cushion and then forces them to change direction and run him down. They couldn't. Why? Because they lacked the raw speed to run with him. Speed at corner is more important than any other position. Wide receiver would be next followed by your safeties.



The 4.36, 4.39, and 4.44 that is being reported for Williams are his stopwatch numbers, NOT adjusted for the fast Texas track. Word is that the adjustment can be anywhere from 0.05 to 0.1 depending on the team. On film, he is a 4.45 guy on a good day and normally plays as a 4.5 flat guy. That is not unreasonable for a corner. Asante Samuel was a 4.50 guy coming out. He did okay.

I think Williams is a zone corner. He does very well when he can drop and cover an area. He does not plant and drive as well as he could, but he is good enough there. He is a solid tackler that does not miss many. He is not great in man coverage. He does not use his hands well enough yet and once he is beaten, he does not have the burst at the end to close. If you beat him, it is 6. But, he could be an excellent corner in a system like the Tampa-2. He could play FS. In fact, if he were a sure fire FS, he may be the best FS in this draft. I think he goes in the 2nd. There are some corners that are more scheme diverse that should go ahead of him.



Fast track at Texas ? Dude, the surface Aaron Williams ran on at Texas is EXACTLY the same as he ran on at Indy...Field Turf. So there wasn't no advantage on Texas track. Maybe he just had a bad day at Indy. And maybe the three seperate faster times at Texas are more incline as to Williams real speed is. Bottom line is that Williams played alot of man on man in Texas defensive system. Have no idea what game film you've been watching.

TMC
04-25-2011, 03:14 PM
As soon as he finished running the 40 on Tuesday, Williams reported he ran a 4.36. Scouts said it was a 4.44 on what they called a "fast track."

Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/03/29/2959538/texas-longhorns-cornerback-aaron.html#ixzz1KZBlHYo1



http://walterfootball.com/proday2011march29.php
Chykie's Pro Day 40 time is essentially meaningless because Texas has an ultra-fast track, but he looked solid in his workouts and was able to improve his vertical by 2.5 inches.


Williams improved his 40 time but Texas is a fast track. Even though his 40 was a 4.41 it still translates to 4.5 speed he ran at the combine.

http://www.yardbarker.com/all_sports/articles/steelers_send_all_the_big_boys_to_texas_pro_day/4472431


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Pro-day-shakedown.html

However, Texas is known for its fast track and a lot of NFL executives will either add time to prospects pro day results or just stick to the Combine times. Either way when you watch the tape, there seems to be a lack of a second gear to Williams’ game when asked to turn and run

Furthermore, I do not know where you get your information, but Texas runs on a laid out track. It is a carpet set up specifically to run the 40. It absolutely is not field turf.

http://www.40acressports.com/images/proday-brandonfoster.jpg

Need more?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6eKuwqRBog&feature=related

Watch the first play in the clip. Jeff Fuller, a 6'4"-220 pound WR that runs a 4.50 on a good day, beats him off the line and puts him in the trail position and he NEVER recovers. The ball is overthrown and Williams dives, but on a well thrown ball, Williams is toasted. That is just one of many. In fact, in most games Williams plays off coverage, given up as much as 15-yard cushions against some receivers. If he can close, why give the massive cushions?

Now, show me a 4.40 guy that he had bump and run coverage that he ran with.

Aussie_steeler
04-25-2011, 11:55 PM
Watch the first play in the clip. Jeff Fuller, a 6'4"-220 pound WR that runs a 4.50 on a good day, beats him off the line and puts him in the trail position and he NEVER recovers. The ball is overthrown and Williams dives, but on a well thrown ball, Williams is toasted. That is just one of many. In fact, in most games Williams plays off coverage, given up as much as 15-yard cushions against some receivers. If he can close, why give the massive cushions?

Now, show me a 4.40 guy that he had bump and run coverage that he ran with.

He looks like a Free Safety to me. He plays well with the ball in front of him. Tackles the ball carrier confidently.

In the plays where the receiver got past him he looked like he was never going to recover.

steelreserve
04-26-2011, 12:39 AM
Actually, forty times for corners may be the most important statistic IF they are outside or boundary guys. The key is not in their ability to run straight, the key is once they flip open and turn, IF they have the long speed to stay with receivers. Mike Wallace showed that all season. His elite speed put corners on notice. MANY corners were bailing off the snap on him, giving him bigger cushions, so he started eating them up short. Then, if they came in, he could beat them over the top. As the season wore on, you saw him running more slants and flags that allows him to eat into the cushion and then forces them to change direction and run him down. They couldn't. Why? Because they lacked the raw speed to run with him. Speed at corner is more important than any other position. Wide receiver would be next followed by your safeties.

While I get what you're saying, I don't think 40 speed is the same thing as game speed even by a longshot. There have been plenty of guys as fast as Wallace who couldn't get open to save their lives (James Jett, anyone?). Wallace is so good because he's smoking fast AND he's got a knack for things like timing and finding the right angle, and generally being a pretty smart football player overall. AND he's the rare guy who can consistently catch those balls where he's got a half-step on the defender. But for every Wallace, I swear there are five guys on each side of the ball with similar speed who don't know how to use it, and since that's all they've got going for them, they only last a couple years or until they blow out a knee. Then on the other hand, you've got guys who don't have great stopwatch speed who make defenders look slow in the open field (like Jerry Rice's famous 4.71 40 time). Basically, I think it's all subjective and once you're past a certain threshold of acceptability, a tenth or two is far overridden by how well you know how to play the game.


The 4.36, 4.39, and 4.44 that is being reported for Williams are his stopwatch numbers, NOT adjusted for the fast Texas track. Word is that the adjustment can be anywhere from 0.05 to 0.1 depending on the team. On film, he is a 4.45 guy on a good day and normally plays as a 4.5 flat guy. That is not unreasonable for a corner. Asante Samuel was a 4.50 guy coming out. He did okay.

I think Williams is a zone corner. He does very well when he can drop and cover an area. He does not plant and drive as well as he could, but he is good enough there. He is a solid tackler that does not miss many. He is not great in man coverage. He does not use his hands well enough yet and once he is beaten, he does not have the burst at the end to close. If you beat him, it is 6. But, he could be an excellent corner in a system like the Tampa-2. He could play FS. In fact, if he were a sure fire FS, he may be the best FS in this draft. I think he goes in the 2nd. There are some corners that are more scheme diverse that should go ahead of him.

... and THAT is exactly the kind of stuff I am talking about. You take a CB in the first round, you want a guy who's going to be able to play in any role you ask him to without thinking twice about it. Those kind of limitations are more like what you expect out of your backups. Maybe he learns over time, but if we want a guy who can come in and be a difference-maker, that doesn't sound like it.

TheRuneMeister
04-26-2011, 05:08 AM
Forty-Schmorty. I have to say I'm going with my 'gut' on this one. Aaron Williams plays with a certain swagger. With some veteran leadership I think he could turn out better than anyone can imagine at this point. He needs to lose some of that longhorn arrogance, but I think the Steelers is the perfect place for that. He has some technique issues, but I think that can be corrected. He might not be an immediate starter...but not many Steelers draft picks are.

I say take him in the first...unless Pouncey drops. (which is unlikely). Should Pouncey be on the board at 31 they HAVE to take him.

TMC
04-26-2011, 06:44 AM
While I get what you're saying, I don't think 40 speed is the same thing as game speed even by a longshot. There have been plenty of guys as fast as Wallace who couldn't get open to save their lives (James Jett, anyone?). Wallace is so good because he's smoking fast AND he's got a knack for things like timing and finding the right angle, and generally being a pretty smart football player overall. AND he's the rare guy who can consistently catch those balls where he's got a half-step on the defender. But for every Wallace, I swear there are five guys on each side of the ball with similar speed who don't know how to use it, and since that's all they've got going for them, they only last a couple years or until they blow out a knee. Then on the other hand, you've got guys who don't have great stopwatch speed who make defenders look slow in the open field (like Jerry Rice's famous 4.71 40 time). Basically, I think it's all subjective and once you're past a certain threshold of acceptability, a tenth or two is far overridden by how well you know how to play the game.


No combine or pro day time should ever trump what a guy does on film. If a guy turns out a great 40, all it should do is put you back onto his film to see if he backs it up on the field.

While hands and route running and other aspects are certainly more important at wide receiver, a corner has to be able to run. Why? Because his job is reactionary. Once the WR makes his cut, he has to react and use his natural gifts to stay close. If he cannot run, he is dead. He needs to be able to accelerate, plant and drive, and close on the football. Above anything else, he has to be able to do those things.

And, the higher rated the corner, the higher the round he is taken, the better he needs to be. Aaron Williams gets everything he can out of his abilities, but he does not have great speed.

That is his hole. If he were better there, he would be ranked higher. Jimmy Smith has character concerns. Ras-I Dowling carries the injury label. Brandon Harris is only 5094 and runs in the 4.44 range. That is why they are not in the first round. Some team will have to be comfortable with their flaws in order to draft them. As for Williams playing corner, if he goes to a Tampa-2 team, he will be fine. They give help over the top. He is physical enough against the run. He is good enough in zone. He could fit well there.

steelerdude15
04-26-2011, 01:55 PM
I feel theres better out there than Williams.