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polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 04:43 PM
I had a discussion the other day on Roethlisberger and Rivers, and if we made to any person, Roethlisberger is not the same level as Rivers.

Rodgers was also discussion about this, but if you want to see the full discussion that I had the other time, go to link.

My nick is the same as to forum.


http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=397553&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

steelersfanman92
06-14-2010, 06:11 PM
When ever anyone says Rivers is better just show them this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFBvHe79Nnw

steelerdude15
06-14-2010, 06:46 PM
Umm... even though Rivers is a great QB and is a great fit for the Chargers, I'd still take Ben over him and everyone else in that discussion you had. Ben is the definition of clutch, we've seen this countless times and will until he retires. Here's another thing, stick any QB in the league today behind our line and see if they can actually do good. Peyton, Tom, etc, I really don't think anyone could handle that.

ALLD
06-14-2010, 07:16 PM
BB = 2 Super Bowl wins
Rivers = bupkis SB wins

Brady on his butt with no OL = Mr. Interception

salamander
06-14-2010, 07:18 PM
I'll take Ben and the two SB wins over Rivers any day.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:39 PM
Some comment that RAVINGMADD said.



Ben winning Super Bowls doesn't magically make his play that much better. Rivers and Rodgers have both outperformed him in the regular season and post season. Inversely, because they haven't been to a Super Bowl doesn't make them any worse players. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl, too but no one is going to say he is better than Rivers or Rodgers.
I would have close to the same ranking as you, but the only difference is that I would put Rodgers as 1a and Rivers as 1b.




They are all close to the same level, but the fact that they are overwhelmingly favored by everyone else should just show you that maybe your opinion that Ben is the best QB is a bit biased.
Both Rivers and Rodgers (albeit in one game) have played better then Ben in the playoffs, but lost.
In their one head to head matchup in the playoffs, Rivers played way better with his team only giving him 15 yds rushing, while they gave up 146 yds and 2 td's just to Willie Parker. You didn't win that game and go to the Super Bowl because of Ben Roethlisberger and the Chargers didn't lose because of Rivers.
Rodgers had an incredible comeback in his one playoff appearance and you have to take into account that he didn't throw a single interception in the red zone last year and 20 TD's in the red zone. That shows me that he is good under pressure and is an incredibly smart QB. I don't think because of the fumble in OT that he is going to have a problem with pressure situations.
They both have played better then Roethlisberger in the playoffs and regular season. The best players are the ones that are consistently better and I see that from Rodgers and Rivers, but I won't see that from Roethlisberger. From Roethlisberger, I see a guy who should be thanking his lucky stars for being drafted by the Steelers. He makes a lot of bad decisions that he gets away with and gets a lot of help from being on a great team. We will see over the next few years who is more consistent, but for now I'm gonna go with Rodgers and Rivers.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:39 PM
Pedestrian Stats? Is 14 for 19(73.7% completions) 264 yds and 3 tds to 1 int to beat Peyton Manning in the playoffs in his second season starting pedestrian? Not to mention that he beat Peyton again the next year. How about 21 for 35 for 308 yds 3td and 1 int losing to Pittsburgh in 2008 when Ben had only 181 yds and 1 TD. Those are more pedestrian stats then Rivers. Rivers hasn't thrown under 200 yds in a playoff game yet.
Yeah he has had his struggles, but he has also lost when he played very well. They lost most of those games because of Kaeding last year and their defense last year and the years before.
I don't know why anyone would want Ben over Rodgers. In his first two years starting he has thrown over 4,000 yds and last year didn't throw a single interception in the red zone. Ben until last year hadn't broken 4,000 yds and relied heavily on defense and the running game. Remember those 23 picks in 2006. In the years that they have relied more heavily on Ben and the only years he had over 20tds they didn't do anything. In 2008 they won the Super Bowl and during the regular season he threw 17tds to 15 ints. When they have relied on Ben to do anything besides one drive at the end of games they have lost. What does that tell you about ben? His stats don't scream great QB to me. 17 tds in both those seasons he won super bowls aren't good QB numbers.
You can argue he is a better QB because he won Super Bowls when he actually got them to the Super Bowl throwing the ball like a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Jim Plunkett won two Super Bowls too. Is he a better QB then Rivers or Rodgers? Is he better then Peyton because his record in the Super Bowl is 2-0 while Peyton is only 1-1? Super Bowl wins are more team accomplishments, especially when you only throw 17 TD's in the regular season as the QB of a Super Bowl winner. Is Trent Dilfer a great QB too?
I was saying they were close before, but now that I think of it Rodgers and Rivers are way better then any of those other QB's. If their teams can be as good as they are, we will see both of them win a Super Bowl before it's all said and done.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:42 PM
I didn't say that he wasn't a factor in the success of the Steelers because he obviously was. I'm arguing that because he has two Super Bowl wins doesn't mean he is a better QB. When he was relied on to win with his arm in the regular season he didn't get it done. In his best statistical years, the steelers didn't make it to the playoffs. When they did make it to the playoffs and win the Super Bowl it was more because of great defense and a great running game then because of Big Ben slinging it around for 300yd and 3 tds every game. Until last year his stats weren't even that good besides one season with 32 TD's. Without those years he wouldn't even be close to this conversation, but everyones argument for him is that he has two Super Bowl wins. When he actually started throwing the ball around more they didn't even make the playoffs.

And they also didn't win just because of Roethlisberger. 48% completions against the Ravens in 08 AFC Championship isn't good at all. The one TD pass he made to Holmes was a really dumb lob into the air and he got lucky because Fabian Washington fell down. Had Washington made the pick, they wouldn't have even made it to the Super Bowl that year. They lost to Jacksonville in 07 and Ben threw 3 INT. That loss had to a lot to do with Ben. In his first Super Bowl he really stunk it up with 42% completions 123 yds and 0 TDs to 2 INTs. You can't account that Super Bowl to Big Ben taking the team on his shoulders and winning that game. They won the Super Bowl that year more despite him then because of him. His play in the playoffs hasn't been that great and it has been very inconsistent.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:44 PM
Actually he did have some of his worst games at the worst times, they just happened to win those games. In the 08 game in the AFC Championship against Baltimore, he played terrible. Also, in his first Super Bowl ever against Seattle, he played terrible. He also threw 3 pick, lost a fumble and was sacked 6 times losing 40 yds against Jacksonville in the postseason in 2007. So in reality, he only had good postseason games against Cincinnati and Denver in 05, a decent game against Indianapolis in 05 (where they ran the ball 34 times with Parker and Bettis), a pretty good game he played in 08 against San Diego (that was won more because Willie Parker ran for 146 YDs and 2 TD's and they shut down the run), and a decent game against Arizona in the Super Bowl that he barely won on the last drive and got a lot of help from Santonio Holmes and Arizona making stupid penalties. He hasn't played all that impressively besides a couple games where he made comeback wins, usually with help from penalties, his ability to break tackles and Santonio Holmes. We will see how things go, but as of right now, he isn't all that good.

Incredibly what? Lucky? Stupid? I'm not just looking at stats. do you remember that pass? It was a lob straight up into the air. I could have intercepted that pass and Fabian Washington certainly could have had he not fallen down.

I give Ben credit, I never said he wasn't good at all. He is a good QB, my argument is that Rivers and Rodgers are better. He is the best QB in the league at breaking tackles and making something happen out of nothing, but in terms of decision making and passing ability he isn't the best.

Comparing Dilfer to Roethlisberger is not for lack of respect. I'm just saying they both won Super Bowls because they were good enough game managers and they had good defenses, but that doesn't make them great QB's. He deserves credit for 2008, but not so much for 2005. I don't know that I would compare him to Elway at this point, but with that and the Packers game all your looking at is potential and I agree that Roethlisberger has a lot of potential if he can stay out of trouble, but I doubt he has more potential then Rivers or Rodgers.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:46 PM
Stop looking through your Black and Yellow shades and saying that Ben is better then Rodgers or Rivers, when he clearly isn't.
If you are looking at injuries, that game in the AFC Championship against the Ravens looks even worse for Ben, especially since our secondary was so banged up. If we were healthy we would have won that game.
Anyway, I'm not saying that he was the biggest reason they lost, I'm just saying that defense and running game is the Steelers bread and butter and they didn't win two Super Bowls just because of spectacular play from Ben. If they had to rely just on Ben, they would have won 0 Super Bowls.


He played horrible in that game. sure it was against the Ravens, but it was against their backup cornerbacks and everyone on that team was banged up because we didn't have a bye since week 2. You are entitled to your opinion, but you should also take into account your bias since you are a Steelers fan. I don't understand why it comes down to me being a Ravens fan and isn't about you being a Steelers fan at all. I'm arguing for players on the Chargers and Packers. It's not like I came in here saying that Flacco is the best QB.
What does that have to do with the pass?


It wasn't a risk, it was a bad pass that he got lucky didn't get intercepted and even luckier that Holmes was able to take it for a TD.
He did well in the playoffs and horrible in the Super Bowl that year. You said he doesn't play bad in the most important games, but that was the most important game he had played in at that point in his career.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:49 PM
But still a horrible pass. Really, the reason why I like Rivers and Rodgers is that they are consistent and have shown superior ability in passing the ball and making decisions. Roethlisberger has his strength's too- big arm, ability to break tackles, but Rodgers is a way better decision maker and Rivers has better accuracy. Rodgers is probably pretty close to Peyton Manning in terms of decision making ability, maybe not in overall football know-how because he is still young, but when it comes to who I want making decisions in the red zone, I would take Rodgers over just about everyone.


Yeah, that is Ben Roethlisberger's strength, not his decision making skills. That's why I prefer Rodgers over all of them. I like Rivers a lot too, and yeah he has had his antics on the field, but I'd prefer that over Ben's antics off the field. Those decision making skills and his decision making skills on the field are the same problem. I like his toughness and his grit and he has a great arm, but in terms of decision making, Romo, Rodgers and Rivers all are a step above him.


So because of one play he isn't that good? Stats aren't the most important thing, but they play a big part in determining a players future success. Remember that Rodgers has only started two seasons in this league and already has better stats then most QB's in the league. He is going to be as good as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning before his career is over.

Rivers isn't that good because he threw an interception.
Ben threw an interception at the end of the second half of the Super against the Cards, but his team picked him up and Harrison picked it off and ran it back for 100 yards. That was huge for that game. The overwhelming pattern that has formed here is that even when Ben screws up, he gets helped out because he is on a great team, not because he himself is that much better than Rivers, Rodgers or Romo. The other three lose in the playoffs because they don't have the team around them that Ben had when he won his Super Bowls.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:50 PM
Rivers throws for less attempts than Ben and still has better numbers.

Sorry numbers are critical in the outcome of a game, unless you have the top 3 defense like Ben has for 4 of his 6 years and the 2 years he didn't they missed the playoffs. 1 of the years Ben had his best season statistically.

Ben had worst S winning performance for a QB ever and they still won.

Ben had one of his 2 worst years in 08 and they still win a SB with that vaunted #1 defense again.

Good for Ben, he comes through alot in the clutch. Maybe, just maybe it's because he's not asked to do much most of the game and the majority of the game is not on his arm and the result on his back. He has the luxury of having a elite defense nearly every year.

Where as someone like Rivers from the first second of the game to the last, the entire game is on his back and arm and he has to make big plays all game long, not just end of the game.


Since 2006 When Rivers became a starter, only Peyton has more 4th quarter game winning drives.

Only Brady has a better winning percentage.


Stop putting so much stock in one play. 1 play i about timing, opportunity, positioning, lucky, momentum.

A career of consistency is about sheer skill and ability.

Ben had a epic SB winning drive. But without Harrison's int for a td end of the half, it wouldn't of mattered, game over and Ben never had the chance.

If not for the big plays by Parker,defense and Randle El and Ward no SB in 05 either.

I've been bamboozled I thought Rivers was the obvious choice for #1, in the NFL let alone in this thread. EGG ON MY FACE!

POP QUIZ HOT SHOTS... WHat other QB ever has had 4 year starting and never missed the playoffs and had back to back 104 QB rating seasons with the 31st ranked rushing offense.
_________________

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:52 PM
Yeah of course, it's me that wrong. I don't give that much credit to Aikman. He wasn't anything special. Montana was good, but I don't consider him the best. Manning is probably one of the best, and yeah he has had things to work with on offense, but their defense certainly isn't the Steelers defense. He hasn't had the running game that Ben had in 2005, either.
About your earlier question I agree that your lack of success last year wasn't because of Ben, but my argument is that he won his Super Bowls more because of his defense, than because of his individual play. When he did win, he didn't do it by passing for 300 yds and 3 TD's almost every game and Peyton has. Thats the difference. He threw 17 TD's in both of his Super Bowl winning seasons. It's laughable that you are trying to argue that those seasons are the reason he is better than Rivers or Rodgers.


Of course it's there talent. But they need a talented QB to make the throws to them that Rivers does. Have you seen some of the vertical passes in absolutely ridiculous coverage Rivers has made on them??

Talented skill position players don't throw to themselve and it's not like past 2 years VJ has had a running game to help him on the outside or Gates in the middle.

There is a reason Gates, Floyd and VJ have a ridiculous group YPA.


Ben's defense doesn't need Ben to be a great QB for them to be a elite defense.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:54 PM
Wow. If Rivers had Plaxico and Hines Ward in his prime he would have had more than 17 TD's. Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes, same thing. Vincent Jackson has a lot of talent and Gates is the best, but they wouldn't have the success they have without good quarterback play.
The defense helps Ben and his skill has no affect on those players. Thats what King Of Stats is saying. If Rivers isn't Rivers those players aren't getting the numbers to get these accolades. Without Ben, the defense is still going to get the turnovers and help win games.

Neither Rivers or Rodger has choked at all. They have played very well in the playoffs. Rodgers had one great game that was lost because of a fumble not an interception. I don't consider that choking. they blitzed a corner and he didn't get blocked. Not Aaron Rodgers fault.
And if his Super Bowls aren't why he is better, then why is he better? Because of a few games he played well in that happened to be in the playoffs, but in the biggest of those games (the Super Bowl) he played terrible. You act like he is always clutch in the biggest games and plays great, but that isn't the case. He is very lucky. Rivers and Rodgers haven't had the opportunities that Ben has, but that doesn't mean they couldn't perform in those clutch situations. It's about consistency and so far Rivers and Rodgers (in his two years) have been more consistent. They make way better decisions and are more accurate. I want either of them on my team before Ben, regardless of off the field issues.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:55 PM
Why do we keep track of stats if they don't mean anything. They are the best way to determine individual performance. A lot of the team aspect comes into play and some players stats are hurt or helped by play of the team, but winning has a lot less to do with individual performance than stats and way more about team performance.


I agree they aren't perfect, especially in football, but it is the best way. What is another better way to determine individual performance? Stats definitely are a better thing to look at then Super Bowl wins.

All you do is list a bunch of facts. That certainly isn't going to make me think that Roethlisberger is any better. His interception wasn't any more expensive then the fumble Roethlisberger had against the Jags or any of the 3 INT's he had that game. I don't think Rivers has had three interceptions in one game in his career, let alone in the playoffs. It wouldn't have been any more expensive than any other INT Ben has thrown in the playoffs had they not won.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 07:59 PM
Then what is the best way to determine individual performance?
I'm arguing that you can't put Ben over Rodgers and Rivers because of his Super Bowl wins, which were team wins. I feel that the superior stats of Rivers and Rodgers are a better way to determine their individual skill, then Ben's team wins. I don't really put as much stock in clutch play because that is even more set up by others around you than individual stats. You have to actually be in position to win the game to get a chance to make a clutch play. There is a difference between a player who chokes whenever he gets a chance and a player like Ben, but when two players really haven't choked you can't say that Ben is so much better in clutch situations and they are both choke artists.


He has had horrible playoff games. He isn't any better then those two. You will see when Rivers and Rodgers continue to consistently play better and win more. If this offseason is any indication, Big Ben's luck has run out.

polamalubeast
06-14-2010, 08:00 PM
It was all the comments RAVINGMADD.

A true supporters of Ravens frustrating!

ALLD
06-14-2010, 08:02 PM
Championships won is the ultimate measure of a player and team. A good player never puts his individual statistics above the team. Ask Terry Bradshaw yourself.

fansince'76
06-14-2010, 10:52 PM
It was all the comments RAVINGMADD.

A true supporters of Ravens frustrating!

He's also a blithering idiot.

In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating. He defines this as "playing very well in the playoffs."

In 10 career playoff games (including both Super Bowls), Ben has an 8-2 win/loss record, has gone 172-278 (61.9%) for 2239 yards, 15 TD passes, 12 INTs, and an 87.2 QB rating. He defines this as, in so many words, "an inaccurate game manager whose defense carries him."

That Ravens fan has absolutely no clue as to what the hell he's talking about.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-15-2010, 12:44 AM
gotta admitt that I thought Rivers would be another Danny Weurffel......I was wrong, but still happy we didnt draft him. I hate his attitude. Comes off like a suck at times.

Galax Steeler
06-15-2010, 04:55 AM
Not even close I would take Ben anyday. Like El-Gonzo said his attitude sucks I just don't like Rivers.

polamalubeast
06-15-2010, 06:30 AM
He's also a blithering idiot.

In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating. He defines this as "playing very well in the playoffs."

In 10 career playoff games (including both Super Bowls), Ben has an 8-2 win/loss record, has gone 172-278 (61.9%) for 2239 yards, 15 TD passes, 12 INTs, and an 87.2 QB rating. He defines this as, in so many words, "an inaccurate game manager whose defense carries him."

That Ravens fan has absolutely no clue as to what the hell he's talking about.


The steelers have score 268 points in 10 playoff games with Roethlisberger as QB.

This is really excellent.

To say he played badly against the Ravens, it's really stupid.

He had a great game against a great defense.

And the steelers have had a bad running game in 2008.

Butch
06-15-2010, 06:59 AM
Stats are for losers it makes them feel better about themselves and their team.

Also remember that great players don't always play great they play great when they have to.

Ben has more come from behind victories than any other QB at tha same place in their career. Sure his Defense and supporting cast help but he is a huge reason for us making and winning Superbowls unlike what rivers and rogers do. Rogers lost to the G-men in Greenbay just a few years back when the G-men went to the Superbowl and won. How's that for performance under pressure???

HometownGal
06-15-2010, 09:01 AM
I'm sticking by my guns, as we had this same conversation over on the board whose name shall not be mentioned . . . .

Rivers is about as overrated an NFL QB as there is, and as big of a hair in the throat choke job as Tony HoHoHomo, as well as an immature jackass.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Sk_Pgb7EDjE/SwZY2eXBPsI/AAAAAAAAAQ4/FQFpsByiQHE/s1600/Philip+Rivers+Cry+Baby.png

steeldevil
06-15-2010, 09:02 AM
Stats are for losers it makes them feel better about themselves and their team.

Also remember that great players don't always play great they play great when they have to.

Ben has more come from behind victories than any other QB at tha same place in their career. Sure his Defense and supporting cast help but he is a huge reason for us making and winning Superbowls unlike what rivers and rogers do. Rogers lost to the G-men in Greenbay just a few years back when the G-men went to the Superbowl and won. How's that for performance under pressure???

well actually Rodgers was sitting on the bench that game. Brett Favre lost GB that game not Rodgers...

But yea my opinion is: Big Ben>A-Rod>Rivers

Butch
06-15-2010, 09:17 AM
well actually Rodgers was sitting on the bench that game. Brett Favre lost GB that game not Rodgers...

But yea my opinion is: Big Ben>A-Rod>Rivers

crap you're right...my bust...my excuse it was early in the morning so I wasn't quite in my right mind yet.

vasteeler
06-15-2010, 10:16 AM
i may be wrong but didnt ben beat rivers twice in the playoffs?

polamalubeast
06-15-2010, 10:55 AM
i may be wrong but didnt ben beat rivers twice in the playoffs?



In fact, they have faced in the playoffs in 2008 and steelers have won the game.

But the steelers have won three games against the chargers since 2008.

But the steelers are classified 19th and chargers first.:coffee:

http://steelerstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/lamar-woodley-257x300.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00ntaivbju2xF/340x.jpg

HometownGal
06-17-2010, 03:03 PM
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00ntaivbju2xF/340x.jpg[/QUOTE]

Wish Ben would have kneed the little prick in the cahoonans. Sorry - can't stomach Rivers.

steeldevil
06-17-2010, 03:12 PM
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00ntaivbju2xF/340x.jpg

Wish Ben would have kneed the little prick in the cahoonans. Sorry - can't stomach Rivers.[/QUOTE]

The feeling is mutual, cant stand that loudmouth loser. Even some NC State fans I know dont like the guy...

ALLD
06-17-2010, 05:37 PM
According to the media, Rivers is an elite QB.

steel striker
07-03-2010, 10:26 AM
Ben is a much better Qb when the matters take last year playoffs Rivers threw a couple of int's that cost the chargers the game. Take a couple years ago in the playoffs against the cheats Rivers did not get the job done then. Bottom line Ben is better when the game is on the line Rivers is a good Qb don't get me wrong but, he needs to win in the playoffs when it counts. So what you want about Ben but, he is a winner!

Edman
07-28-2010, 03:32 AM
Rivers is yet another example in a long line of good regular Season Quarterbacks. Like Carson, McNabb and Romo. Until I see more from him, he's not elite. This RAVINGMADD fellow, like so many other Ravens fans, revile Ben so much that they can't even give him credit. They're so obsessively jealous and bitter over Ben owning the Ravens for so long that they turn stupid. Think Philthy fans and Sidney Crosby.

Rivers took not one, but TWO high-seeded, stacked Charger teams to the playoffs and went one and out both times. That horrible throw against the Jets in the playoffs sealed it for me that he's overrated. He's a very good QB, but not a great one.

HometownGal
07-28-2010, 06:48 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_E76qxdTmheI/SWqf8XRfaOI/AAAAAAAABic/HeKBlDl-2TM/s400/philip_rivers_crying.jpg

silver & black
07-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Phyllis Rivers sucks.

MasterOfPuppets
07-29-2010, 01:27 AM
somebody needs to go over to this phin forum and set these bozo's strait .. a few of em got some common sense but not many.


He might want to thank his team/defense for that oh and his kicker, things that Rivers doesn't have to be thankful for.
this is the bullshit excuse that gets me ... how many preseason have you heard the media hyping sandiego as the team with the most talent in the league over the past 5 years ? was LT not the top back in the league for the first few years of river's career?
didn't the chargers go 14 - 2 in 2006 ? i guess rivers did that all on his own with no help from the crappy team around him .
http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?278547-Ben-Roethlisberger-vs-Philip-Rivers

Edman
07-29-2010, 10:52 AM
I would, but I don't argue with idiots. So Phyllis has no team around him?

Over the past several years has San Diego been hyped as a Super Bowl favorite in the AFC. They were always the "stacked" team. They were always "the most talented" team. The road to the Super Bowl was going to go through San Diego. How many times have we heard that?

This is what Phyllis has had to work with.

-One of the best backs to hit the league in his Prime(LT), and a jack of all trades, master utility player in Sproles backing him up.
-An All-Pro Tight End in Gates.
-A Pro Bowl reciever in Vincent Jackson leading a solid core of recievers.
-A Solid Offensive Line.
-A capable Defense with good players that was actually pretty good in 2006. With Merriman, Phillips, Williams, and Jammer.

Poor Phyllis just left out in the desert. Poor dude had to fend for himself. ALL for himself.

San Diego's records over the past four seasons: 14-2, 11-5, 8-8, 13-3. Won the AFC West all those years. Bad teams don't do that. The result of all this success?

3-4 Playoff record.
Lost the opening playoff game AT HOME TWICE to the Pats and Jets. The latter in Phyllis played HORRIBLY.

Yeah, Phyllis is an elite QB? Yeah right. He sucks.

fansince'76
07-29-2010, 11:10 AM
'Phins fans? What do they know about QBs? The last legit QB they had retired over a decade ago.

Once again, all you gotta know is this:

In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

In 10 career playoff games (including two Super Bowl wins), Ben has an 8-2 win/loss record, has gone 172-278 (61.9%) for 2239 yards, 15 TD passes, 12 INTs, and an 87.2 QB rating.

And as already pointed out, the excuse that Ben has had better talent around him is a crock of shit, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Rivers has been playing on a team loaded with talent for pretty much his entire career. Ben being "carried" by his team in the playoffs? Uh, no, a QB being "carried by his team in the playoffs" is one that goes 4-10 for 34 yards, 0 TDs and 1 INT and whose team still wins by three scores on the road (see Flacco in the WC round last year).

MasterOfPuppets
07-29-2010, 02:00 PM
ladanian tomlinson

2006 ...1850 rushing yds ....56 rec.....28 tds
2007....1474.....................60..........15

yup.... poor phillip has been a one man show his entire career ...about 20% of his passes those 2 years were dump offs to LT

polamalubeast
07-29-2010, 08:20 PM
'Phins fans? What do they know about QBs? The last legit QB they had retired over a decade ago.

Once again, all you gotta know is this:

In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

In 10 career playoff games (including two Super Bowl wins), Ben has an 8-2 win/loss record, has gone 172-278 (61.9%) for 2239 yards, 15 TD passes, 12 INTs, and an 87.2 QB rating.

And as already pointed out, the excuse that Ben has had better talent around him is a crock of shit, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Rivers has been playing on a team loaded with talent for pretty much his entire career. Ben being "carried" by his team in the playoffs? Uh, no, a QB being "carried by his team in the playoffs" is one that goes 4-10 for 34 yards, 0 TDs and 1 INT and whose team still wins by three scores on the road (see Flacco in the WC round last year).

Also, with Ben Roethlisberger, the Steelers scoring 268 points in 10 playoff games.

The chargers has only 139 points in 7 games with Rivers!

It has the world they will say that Roethlisberger had a great running game with the steelers, but since 2005, Willie Parker only had two good games in the playoffs

Davenport was the RB against the jags and it was atrocious.

polamalubeast
10-10-2010, 06:57 PM
2 fumbles vs raiders and chargers lose AT oakland:rolleyes::ranger::ranger::ranger:

steeldawg
10-10-2010, 07:16 PM
Well i kinda see your point and would agree if rivers and rodgers played for a team like detriot but they are on playoff teams. So i think for this arguement you must factor in championships. Ben has the clutch factor and proved it on the biggest stage, so if you asked me what guy i wanted to have the ball with the game on the line , im taking Ben all day long.

7SteelGal43
10-10-2010, 08:17 PM
Well, Rivers has one thing Roethlisberger does not................a vagina.

HometownGal
10-10-2010, 09:19 PM
Phillip Rivers isn't talented enough to hold Ben's jockstrap. He's an overrated crybaby who thinks he's the shit. His chokejobs over the years have proven he's wrong. He should go back to what he does best - knockin' up the wife and changing diapers.

Count Steeler
10-10-2010, 09:40 PM
Perhaps one of the best quarterbacks back in the 70's/80's was Dan Fouts with Air Coryell. It will be interesting to see if he makes the top 100. Unfortunately, he never won a Super Bowl. Stats do show a certain aspect of a quarterback, but stats never show the leadership qualities and the ability to deliver victories in the clutch. Ben was the youngest QB to have 50 wins. I would take Ben over any QB who can't win, but can consistently throw for 300 yards.

Galax Steeler
10-20-2010, 04:40 AM
No comparison Rivers wouldn't make a scab off of Ben's ass.

steelerdude15
10-21-2010, 08:47 PM
I still believe Philip is a great quarterback and is perfect for the Chargers, but he still isn't as good as Ben.

steeldevil
10-22-2010, 03:47 PM
Phillip Rivers vs. Eli Manning would be a better debate... Ben is far above Phillip Crybaby

polamalubeast
10-22-2010, 06:11 PM
I still believe Philip is a great quarterback and is perfect for the Chargers, but he still isn't as good as Ben.

agree

I love Philip Rivers but it must be better in the playoffs.

But the problem of chargers is A.J Smith.

And Rivers is in the top 5 QB in the league(my opinion),behind Peyton Manning, Brady, Brees and Ben.

Count Steeler
10-22-2010, 06:13 PM
I am glad we have Ben. Can't imagine the Steeler offense with Manning (Peyton or Eli), Brees or Rivers. Those guys just are not tough enough for Pittsburgh.

ALLD
10-23-2010, 07:19 AM
Rivers is the next Carson Palmer without the famous college roommate.

Butch
10-23-2010, 09:48 AM
Ben is a very unique QB, he's a pretty big guy back there slinging the ball so when defenders hit him they have to get him solidly or he doesn't go down. He also has a pretty good sense for what is going on around him so that makes it pretty hard for the defenders to get that solid hit on him.

Then you throw in the fact that when Ben scrambles his eyes are down field looking at what is going on so he knows if a receiver comes open so now it is tough on the guys in the secondary to cover and one wrong move could be all it takes.

Ben has proven he has what it takes to put a team on his shoulders and win games, doesn't mean it always works out that way but he has done it and more times than any other QB at the same stage in their careers. We may not always win with Ben but we sure as hell are a much much better team with him.

IMHO no other QB has what Ben has even though they may have gaudy stats they just don't have his poise and his play making ability. I thank God every day that we got Ben and not Rivers or Eli in that draft, because flaws and all he is head and shoulders the Best QB in the league.

Oh and I do think that it helped him hugely to be drafted by us as well. He was Luckily able to develop into the player that he is with the talent that we had, so it really was a two way street he helped the Steelers and the Steelers helped him. Kinda cool when you think about it.

Edman
01-16-2011, 01:31 PM
I think these playoffs are proof that Ben > Rivers.

Faced with a 21-7 Deficit and Terrell Suggs in his mug all game, Ben carves up the Ravens D in the Second Half to win the game. Including a 58 yard bomb to Antonio Brown. By far the play of the game.

Last year, faced with an "insurmountable" 10-7 deficit, Phyllis throws a second pick in the Red Zone which the Jets turn into a 17-7 lead.

At this point, Those who make excuses for Phyllis are just making excuses. He's a great regular season QB, but that's it.

tube517
01-16-2011, 01:44 PM
B-b-b-b-b-b-but Rivers was the best QB of the 2004 draft. :sarcasm:

ALLD
01-16-2011, 06:33 PM
Rivers didn't even make the playoffs even though they had the best offense statistically.

steeldevil
01-18-2011, 10:42 AM
Have Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez played in more playoff games than Rivers now? LOL. Gotta be close.

polamalubeast
01-27-2011, 01:53 PM
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=433883&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

:faint::doh::coffee::rolleyes:

steeldevil
04-04-2011, 04:30 PM
I was over at my friends apartment this past weekend. He is a Titans fan. A girls was there who is a Chargers fan. Once she found out I was a Steelers fan she started talking about how much better Rivers is than Ben. I promptly asked her how many playoff games Rivers has won in his career. I informed her that Ben won that many playoff games (2) this past season alone. And that Rivers is a choke artist.

My friend agreed with her about Rivers being better than Ben. I told him that if he cheered for a team that won in the playoffs he would understand that statistics are not all that matters in judging a QB, but are just one factor. He said he would choose Rivers over Ben to start a team with. I asked him if his goal would be to win a super bowl. He said yes. I then asked him "So why would you pick a choker in the playoffs over a winner in the playoffs?" He had no answer. :rofl2:

But he is biased because he hates the Steelers and Ravens.

JonM229
04-04-2011, 09:16 PM
Have Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez played in more playoff games than Rivers now? LOL. Gotta be close.

Flacco has played the same amount of playoff games (7) as Rivers. Flacco is 4-3 and Rivers is 2-5.

steeldevil
04-04-2011, 09:33 PM
Flacco has played the same amount of playoff games (7) as Rivers. Flacco is 4-3 and Rivers is 2-5.

Its official. Phillip Rivers is the ultimate choker.

steelerdude15
04-04-2011, 11:46 PM
Put Philip Rivers or any "elite" QB behind our line and let's see if they can compete like Ben has and can. I hate how people really only compare stats anymore. I wish he would have one season where he'd put up over 4,500 yards and a million touchdowns to shut people up.... people would still find something to complain about. :doh2:

polamalubeast
04-05-2011, 05:46 AM
In his three playoffs LOSSES, Roethlisberger led the Steelers to an average of 27 points per game.

HometownGal
04-05-2011, 08:28 AM
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/22954/rivers_medium.jpg

steeldevil
04-05-2011, 09:04 AM
Put Philip Rivers or any "elite" QB behind our line and let's see if they can compete like Ben has and can. I hate how people really only compare stats anymore. I wish he would have one season where he'd put up over 4,500 yards and a million touchdowns to shut people up.... people would still find something to complain about. :doh2:

But everyone knows that if you put Rivers in Ben's place on the Steelers that he would have about 5 Super Bowls by now.:rofl2:

steel striker
04-09-2011, 03:54 PM
Until cry me a Rivers can win when it counts he is not even in the discussion as far as I'm concerned. Look at some of rivers playoff games bad picks at crucial moments of the game. Look I know Ben has had a few bad games in the post season but, you can't win all the time. The fact is when it counts you can't talk about Rivers in a good way and, atleast Ben has played well when it has matters.

steeldevil
06-08-2011, 06:00 PM
Does anyone know the significance of these numbers: 3-4 and 10-3?

NJarhead
06-08-2011, 06:14 PM
Does anyone know the significance of these numbers: 3-4 and 10-3?
OOH! OOH! Mr. Cotter!!!

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/sites/tampabay.com.blogs.gradebook/files/images/typepad-legacy-files/53995.6a00d83451b05569e20120a5777418970c-800wi.jpg

Is it, Rivers playoffs wins/losses vs. Ben's playoffs wins/losses?

steeldevil
06-08-2011, 06:58 PM
OOH! OOH! Mr. Cotter!!!

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/sites/tampabay.com.blogs.gradebook/files/images/typepad-legacy-files/53995.6a00d83451b05569e20120a5777418970c-800wi.jpg

Is it, Rivers playoffs wins/losses vs. Ben's playoffs wins/losses?

Damn straight, do you think little Phillip has trouble going to bed at night having nightmares about how inferior he is to Ben???

GBMelBlount
06-08-2011, 09:40 PM
Here's another thing, stick any QB in the league today behind our line and see if they can actually do good. Peyton, Tom, etc, I really don't think anyone could handle that.

Absolutely. Is there any quarterback in the NFL who would have performed better if given Ben's offensive lines?

polamalubeast
06-09-2011, 12:18 PM
Does anyone know the significance of these numbers: 3-4 and 10-3?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3-eavMSBnk

st33lersguy
06-09-2011, 12:45 PM
Rivers: Just a good passer with no leadership skills who chokes in the clutch
Ben: Not only a good passer but a playmaker, a guy who can break tackles and make plays with his legs. A winner, a champion, 2 Superbowls

Does anyone on this board believe Phillys Rivers would have made this play


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMWuRIGg6s

Edman
06-11-2011, 08:15 AM
'Phins fans? What do they know about QBs? The last legit QB they had retired over a decade ago.

And he, like Rivers couldn't get it done in big games. One Super Bowl Appearance in his second season and kept running into brick walls in the playoffs for the rest of his career. But then again, Marino was the only good player on a lot of mediocre Dolphin Teams in the 80's and 90's with no run games or any semblance of a half-decent Defense. Take Marino off those teams and they're bottom rung for years.

Running game, defense, and a solid supporting cast is something Rivers has had access to in San Diego, and he still can't get it done.

ALLD
06-11-2011, 01:39 PM
If Rivers wants to win a SB he should get a video camera.

stillers4me
06-11-2011, 01:48 PM
Rivers: Just a good passer with no leadership skills who chokes in the clutch
Ben: Not only a good passer but a playmaker, a guy who can break tackles and make plays with his legs. A winner, a champion, 2 Superbowls

Does anyone on this board believe Phillys Rivers would have made this play


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMWuRIGg6s

:chuckle:

that play still gives me night sweats..........

polamalubeast
06-26-2011, 09:41 PM
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=449865&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

tube517
06-27-2011, 10:31 AM
:rofl2: at ALLD

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk

Footballanalyst
07-27-2011, 06:47 PM
I think you have to agree Rivers is decisively a better QB, I'm not sure a legit argument exist for Ben. Before I get started showing clearly and decisively how Rivers is not only better, but by a good margin.

Would someone like to start their first argument, that I will proceed to tear apart? Or should I just lay it all out now?

stillers4me
07-27-2011, 06:53 PM
Welcome to SU. It's alway's a good idea to read a forum's COC when joining.

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/1096-SU-Do-s-and-Dont-s

Respectful debate is always welcome and encouraged.

Footballanalyst
07-27-2011, 07:10 PM
This has to easily be Rivers and I think it honestly is in most all circles. I think those analyst are under the spell of championships make players and not teams.


To win a championship, you need a team. It doesn't matter how SD ranks in the regular season. Or the talent. It's how they play in the playoffs. It's about matchups, coaching, health, getting calls, lucky bounces, momentum, depth.

It's funny people say Rivers is great and elite in the regular season but not the playoffs. Yet they want to point to SD's talent or team regular season numbers as to why SD should win. Ignoring what they do or how they play in the playoffs.

In 2 of Rivers 4 playoff losses, Kaeding missed 4 kicks. It took 3 kicks for Brady to win 3 rings.

People say Rivers with a 10th ranked scoring defense is good enough? Rivers went 13-3 without a top 10 scoring defense. Meanwhile Ben is 0-2 in playoff berths without a top 3 defense in points. Only QB to ever make the playoffs with a top 3 scoring defense, every single year.

I think the better question is how many rings would Rivers have in PIT and NYG and if Ben or Eli would even make the playoffs in SD.

You talk about division, but Rivers is 4-0 vs the NFCE.

Rivers is 10-5 vs NFCE and AFCN.

Ben is 12-8 vs NFCE and AFCW.

Eli is 8-7 vs AFCN and AFCW.

So there goes that argument..

Rivers also has the best numbers in the NFL vs top 10 defenses in PPG.

He has a 99.08 QB rating. Eli 71 and Ben 82. - I have a link for this, but it's on a different message board so I am not sure that is allowed.

So it comes down to play. Rivers is clearly better at everything over Eli and Ben. Accuracy, vertical pass, pocket presence, reading defenses, explosive plays, consistency, efficiency in QB rating, TD%, INT%. Better pre snap at audibles, adjustments, hot routes.

Ben is better at broken plays, scrambling and breaking tackles.

Eli is not better at anything.

Rivers has led FIVE top 5 scoring offenses, something Ben has never done. You know a QB's job, leading a offense to score points.

Eli has done it 2 times.

So Rivers is superior by a huge margin at his job. Scoring points, leading the offense, controlling TOP, converting 3rd downs and getting 1st downs and control field position with yardage, stretching the field, scoring and limiting turnovers. Isn't that what you want from your QB?

You say he had the best defense, but he had an even better offense. So how did he fail if he led his direct unit to a top 2 unit in the league?

QB's job is not momentum, matchups, defensive stops, special team plays, coaching, health, depth, controlling lucks and beneficial ref calls, etc.

It's to lead the offense and Rivers is as good as anyone who has ever played at that. Also leadership, it's not close. Ben and Eli have had team mates and former team mates question their leadership, plus suspensions for one of them and off field issues. Scared frail demeanor. verse a guy who never had any team mate question him. Took over leadership from Brees and LT.

Also while Ben and Eli had great SB game winning drives, lets not ignore the plays that happened before those.

I honestly can't see how any thinks this is close. Rivers is fighting for the #1 spot. Not with two bottom half top 10 guys.

I just want a legit argument against Rivers. Superbowls are seasonal team achievements, not assessments of skill and player impact and value.

Because prior to Ben, Pit had alot of playoff berths and AFCC game berths with below avg QB's like O'donnell and Stewart. Meanwhile SD had 1 playoff berth and no wins the previous 12 years to Rivers.

Also lets not forget Tomlin vs Norv and Cowher vs Marty. Oh as for that play vs Indy that Ben made the tackle on.

This is Rivers in a preseason game to boot.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ZrS-7ZXTM

zulater
07-27-2011, 07:20 PM
Stats smats. I watch the games, Rivers is without question elite, but different circumstances make for different players, and you can only judge a player by how well they do what their asked, and if they help their team win moreso than a comparable player would in the same set of circumstances. Therefore this is what i know; Ben wins, he helps his team win games that matter.

So in the end Rivers will almost always post better stats, because that's what he's asked to do, and that's what he wants to do. Ben will almost always win more games, particuarly games that matter, because that's what he's asked to do, and that's what he wants to do, he can put ego aside. So keep your pretty stats and Pro Bowls, and we'll keep winning games that matter and we'll all be happy!

stillers4me
07-27-2011, 07:31 PM
This is Rivers in a preseason game to boot.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ZrS-7ZXTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ZrS-7ZXTM)
:lol:

This is Ben in a Superbowl.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80e85407/Super-Bowl-XLIII-Ben-Roethlisberger-highlights

Footballanalyst
07-27-2011, 07:39 PM
Stats smats. I watch the games, Rivers is without question elite, but different circumstances make for different players, and you can only judge a player by how well they do what their asked, and if they help their team win moreso than a comparable player would in the same set of circumstances. Therefore this is what i know; Ben wins, he helps his team win games that matter.

So in the end Rivers will almost always post better stats, because that's what he's asked to do, and that's what he wants to do. Ben will almost always win more games, particuarly games that matter, because that's what he's asked to do, and that's what he wants to do, he can put ego aside. So keep your pretty stats and Pro Bowls, and we'll keep winning games that matter and we'll all be happy!

What circumstances??

Like beating the Jets in 04 while playing horrible?

Or like vs Cincy having Palmer out the first snap? Then dueling with Kitna?

Playing horrible vs Seattle and still winning??

How about a punt return for a TD vs SD and Willie Parker looking like Walter Payton in that game and SD unable to stop him. Not to mention SD had the ball for 13 seconds the entire 3rd qtr.

How about vs the Ravens the next week, when Troy has a pick 6, in a what 4 point game with Balt driving for the win?

How about the SB where Harrison has a 100 yd int on a 14 point swing before half time?? If not for that play, Ben's great game winning drive, which it was. Arguably best SB winning drive ever, would of never taken place.

How about this year vs the Ravens? Ben and the offense struggle all first half, not to mention a dropped int deep in Pit's side of the field. Pit's defense then proceeds to have 3 or 4 turnovers forced in the 2nd half within Balt's 20 yd line on all the turnovers.

How about his generally bad game vs NYJ. Yes he had a good end of game conversion to put the game away. But outside of that did not play well. Then proceeded to throw 2 ints in the SB, including a pick 6 and failed in a clutch moment on 4th down, last possession down by 6.

Lets not act like Ben's team doesn't play as good in the playoffs as they do in the regular season if not better. While SD's team, tends to find ways to lose games they should decisively win.

How do you win games?? Score points and stop teams from scoring right?? Move the ball to score, correct? Are these not stats?? Are stats not essential in winning? So you rather have a less productive, less consistent, less efficient QB, because he has had more success under better and more favorable circumstances??

It's like saying you rather ride shotgun in a Chevy pickup with a good driver, instead of a Ferrari with a questionable drive. Cars represent the players, drivers represent the circumstances in this Analogy.

I have Ben as #6 QB in the NFL, so I'm not hating. But put on the footage of any QB in the NFL. Rivers plays the QB position as well if not better than any in the game.

steeldevil
07-27-2011, 07:50 PM
This has to easily be Rivers and I think it honestly is in most all circles. I think those analyst are under the spell of championships make players and not teams.


To win a championship, you need a team. It doesn't matter how SD ranks in the regular season. Or the talent. It's how they play in the playoffs. It's about matchups, coaching, health, getting calls, lucky bounces, momentum, depth.

It's funny people say Rivers is great and elite in the regular season but not the playoffs. Yet they want to point to SD's talent or team regular season numbers as to why SD should win. Ignoring what they do or how they play in the playoffs.

In 2 of Rivers 4 playoff losses, Kaeding missed 4 kicks. It took 3 kicks for Brady to win 3 rings.

People say Rivers with a 10th ranked scoring defense is good enough? Rivers went 13-3 without a top 10 scoring defense. Meanwhile Ben is 0-2 in playoff berths without a top 3 defense in points. Only QB to ever make the playoffs with a top 3 scoring defense, every single year.

I think the better question is how many rings would Rivers have in PIT and NYG and if Ben or Eli would even make the playoffs in SD.

You talk about division, but Rivers is 4-0 vs the NFCE.

Rivers is 10-5 vs NFCE and AFCN.

Ben is 12-8 vs NFCE and AFCW.

Eli is 8-7 vs AFCN and AFCW.

So there goes that argument..

Rivers also has the best numbers in the NFL vs top 10 defenses in PPG.

He has a 99.08 QB rating. Eli 71 and Ben 82. - I have a link for this, but it's on a different message board so I am not sure that is allowed.

So it comes down to play. Rivers is clearly better at everything over Eli and Ben. Accuracy, vertical pass, pocket presence, reading defenses, explosive plays, consistency, efficiency in QB rating, TD%, INT%. Better pre snap at audibles, adjustments, hot routes.

Ben is better at broken plays, scrambling and breaking tackles.

Eli is not better at anything.

Rivers has led FIVE top 5 scoring offenses, something Ben has never done. You know a QB's job, leading a offense to score points.

Eli has done it 2 times.

So Rivers is superior by a huge margin at his job. Scoring points, leading the offense, controlling TOP, converting 3rd downs and getting 1st downs and control field position with yardage, stretching the field, scoring and limiting turnovers. Isn't that what you want from your QB?

You say he had the best defense, but he had an even better offense. So how did he fail if he led his direct unit to a top 2 unit in the league?

QB's job is not momentum, matchups, defensive stops, special team plays, coaching, health, depth, controlling lucks and beneficial ref calls, etc.

It's to lead the offense and Rivers is as good as anyone who has ever played at that. Also leadership, it's not close. Ben and Eli have had team mates and former team mates question their leadership, plus suspensions for one of them and off field issues. Scared frail demeanor. verse a guy who never had any team mate question him. Took over leadership from Brees and LT.

Also while Ben and Eli had great SB game winning drives, lets not ignore the plays that happened before those.

I honestly can't see how any thinks this is close. Rivers is fighting for the #1 spot. Not with two bottom half top 10 guys.

I just want a legit argument against Rivers. Superbowls are seasonal team achievements, not assessments of skill and player impact and value.

Because prior to Ben, Pit had alot of playoff berths and AFCC game berths with below avg QB's like O'donnell and Stewart. Meanwhile SD had 1 playoff berth and no wins the previous 12 years to Rivers.

Also lets not forget Tomlin vs Norv and Cowher vs Marty. Oh as for that play vs Indy that Ben made the tackle on.

This is Rivers in a preseason game to boot.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ZrS-7ZXTM

I refuse to read that long of a post about a crybaby.

Rivers sucks.

fansince'76
07-27-2011, 07:54 PM
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

Those numbers are hardly elite. And before you start arguing "but, Ben's supporting cast!" San Diego sent TEN players to the Pro Bowl in 2006. They sent ELEVEN in 2007. They sent NINE in 2008. The only Pro Bowl in recent years where the Steelers sent more players to Hawaii was in 2009, when the Steelers sent three and the Chargers sent two. I'm sick of hearing "Ben has a better team around him," when San Diego has been stacked with talent since Rivers has been there. It's not like he's been stuck playing for the Lions the last eight years.

X-Terminator
07-27-2011, 08:21 PM
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

Those numbers are hardly elite. And before you start arguing "but, Ben's supporting cast!" San Diego sent TEN players to the Pro Bowl in 2006. They sent ELEVEN in 2007. They sent NINE in 2008. The only Pro Bowl in recent years where the Steelers sent more players to Hawaii was in 2009, when the Steelers sent three and the Chargers sent two. I'm sick of hearing "Ben has a better team around him," when San Diego has been stacked with talent since Rivers has been there. It's not like he's been stuck playing for the Lions the last eight years.

Not only that, Ben has beaten Rivers in the playoffs. You know, the games that matter the most.

You can keep your stats and kiss his ass, Footballanalyst. Until Rivers actually does something other than fail in the postseason, I ain't all that impressed. All that talent around him, consistently one of the most talented in the league, and absolutely nothing to show for it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Fantasy football has completely ruined fans these days. Numbers mean everything, and winning games means nothing.

zulater
07-27-2011, 08:30 PM
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

Those numbers are hardly elite. And before you start arguing "but, Ben's supporting cast!" San Diego sent TEN players to the Pro Bowl in 2006. They sent ELEVEN in 2007. They sent NINE in 2008. The only Pro Bowl in recent years where the Steelers sent more players to Hawaii was in 2009, when the Steelers sent three and the Chargers sent two. I'm sick of hearing "Ben has a better team around him," when San Diego has been stacked with talent since Rivers has been there. It's not like he's been stuck playing for the Lions the last eight years.

And let's not forget that Rivers plays in the AFC West which means he plays in better weather and often against inferior teams. Ben's worst passer since 2007 against an AFC West foe was 96 and change that he put up against the Chargers in 08, other than that it's all 100+ with most being in the 120+ category.

Just checking at profootballreference.com and the stats bear me out, Ben pretty much owns the AFC west from a passing perspective with a career qb rating of over 101 against the AFC West. Of course that number is slightly skewed because the Steelers played the AFC west in 2006, and Ben had a couple terrible games against Western teams that year in games that he was coming off a serious injury. Truth be told if Ben played 6 game a year against the AFC West his stats would look way better than they do now, not that there's anything wrong with them.

Anyway stat boy, you can keep Rivers, we're quite happy with Ben.

86WARD
07-27-2011, 09:01 PM
Can someone just kill this silly thread?

steeldevil
07-27-2011, 09:34 PM
Not only that, Ben has beaten Rivers in the playoffs. You know, the games that matter the most.

You can keep your stats and kiss his ass, Footballanalyst. Until Rivers actually does something other than fail in the postseason, I ain't all that impressed. All that talent around him, consistently one of the most talented in the league, and absolutely nothing to show for it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Fantasy football has completely ruined fans these days. Numbers mean everything, and winning games means nothing.

Hey man you stole that thought from me.... :thumbdown:

Its true though.

steeldevil
07-27-2011, 09:36 PM
Can someone just kill this silly thread?

No way, its too much fun.

SteelCityMan786
07-27-2011, 10:18 PM
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00ntaivbju2xF/340x.jpg

Wish Ben would have kneed the little prick in the cahoonans. Sorry - can't stomach Rivers.

Rivers can't even take criticism properly without whining to his fans.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:15 PM
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

Those numbers are hardly elite. And before you start arguing "but, Ben's supporting cast!" San Diego sent TEN players to the Pro Bowl in 2006. They sent ELEVEN in 2007. They sent NINE in 2008. The only Pro Bowl in recent years where the Steelers sent more players to Hawaii was in 2009, when the Steelers sent three and the Chargers sent two. I'm sick of hearing "Ben has a better team around him," when San Diego has been stacked with talent since Rivers has been there. It's not like he's been stuck playing for the Lions the last eight years.

Like I said I gave you a number of examples of games in the playoffs Ben did not play well in but the team still won. In 2 of Rivers 4 losses, they have been by 3 points, in games his kicker missed 4 FG's.

Lets not forget this nugget. In over 60 combined playoff games for Brady, Peyton, Ben, Brees, Eli, and Rodgers they have faced a combined THREE #1 scoring defenses.

In 7 playoff games, Rivers has played THREE #1 defenses. With virtually no running game in those games.

2 of his 4 playoff losses were vs NE. A team Ben doesn't have much success against and is 0-1 in the playoff vs.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:17 PM
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

Those numbers are hardly elite. And before you start arguing "but, Ben's supporting cast!" San Diego sent TEN players to the Pro Bowl in 2006. They sent ELEVEN in 2007. They sent NINE in 2008. The only Pro Bowl in recent years where the Steelers sent more players to Hawaii was in 2009, when the Steelers sent three and the Chargers sent two. I'm sick of hearing "Ben has a better team around him," when San Diego has been stacked with talent since Rivers has been there. It's not like he's been stuck playing for the Lions the last eight years.

Is that evidence by Ben missing the playoffs both times his defenses wasn't top 3 in scoring?? Rivers has never had a top 3 scoring defense. The closest he was, was in 07 with the #5 scoring defense and he made it to the AFCC game vs the 17-0 Pats on the road with 2 bums knees.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 04:18 PM
Well, if Rivers is such a vastly superior QB in every conceivable way, his presence should have been enough to get the Chargers over the hump at least once, no?

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:25 PM
And let's not forget that Rivers plays in the AFC West which means he plays in better weather and often against inferior teams. Ben's worst passer since 2007 against an AFC West foe was 96 and change that he put up against the Chargers in 08, other than that it's all 100+ with most being in the 120+ category.

Just checking at profootballreference.com and the stats bear me out, Ben pretty much owns the AFC west from a passing perspective with a career qb rating of over 101 against the AFC West. Of course that number is slightly skewed because the Steelers played the AFC west in 2006, and Ben had a couple terrible games against Western teams that year in games that he was coming off a serious injury. Truth be told if Ben played 6 game a year against the AFC West his stats would look way better than they do now, not that there's anything wrong with them.

Anyway stat boy, you can keep Rivers, we're quite happy with Ben.

You do realize Rivers has a better winning percentage vs the AFCN than Ben does vs the AFCW. Not to mention the AFCW since 06 has had better pass defenses than any other division. Also to boot 3 of the 5 best CB's have been in the AFCW. Aso, Champ and Flowers.

Also since you like profootball reference, go look at Ben vs Rivers career QB rating vs every division and Rivers is virtually better vs almost every division.

As for the game against each other. Rivers played vs the #1 defense and had 300 yds 3 tds and 1 int with over 100 passer rating. With 15 yds rushing from his team, a punt return allowed for a TD and 13 seconds of possession in the entire 3rd qtr. Ben vs a bad SD 08 defense had 1 td and under 200 yds.

Ok you keep a QB who has never led a top 3, top 5, top 6, top 7 scoring offense and I'm sure SD will keep a QB who has never had worse than a top 5 scoring offense and a QB who has scored more points per game than any QB in history.

As they say DEFENSE wins championships and Ben has had by light years the better defense. They don't say o-line wins championships, or TE's or RB's.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:26 PM
Well, if Rivers is such a vastly superior QB in every conceivable way, his presence should have been enough to get the Chargers over the hump at least once, no?

Has he retired yet? Is Bradshaw a superior QB to Marino?

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 04:27 PM
As they say DEFENSE wins championships and Ben has had by light years the better defense. They don't say o-line wins championships, or TE's or RB's.

You had the number one defense this past season. What happened there? Seems to me you went 8-8.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:28 PM
Rivers can't even take criticism properly without whining to his fans.

Link?? Rivers has never had team mates or former team mates question his leadership or ability like Ben. Rivers has never been suspended and if Rivers got decked by Seymour, his entire bench would of emptied coming to his aid.

Nadroj 20
07-28-2011, 04:29 PM
Down 4 points, 2 minutes on the clock..need a 75 yard drive to win the game...who do you honestly chose (the most clutch player) for that situation?

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:29 PM
You had the number one defense this past season. What happened there? Seems to me you went 8-8.

SD went 9-7. Also #1 in yds, is not the equivalent of points. SD was #10 in PPG. Remind me where Pit ranked in PPG allowed on defense in 09 when they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 04:29 PM
Has he retired yet? Is Bradshaw a superior QB to Marino?

Marino got to the SB in his second year. How about Rivers?

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:31 PM
Down 4 points, 2 minutes on the clock..need a 75 yard drive to win the game...who do you honestly chose (the most clutch player) for that situation?

Depends.... There isn't clutch players. Just success and failure in clutch moments. Why chose a player off situational football. Situations that aren't consistent. I mean we saw with 2 minutes left, down 6 in the SB needing about a 70 yd drive to win vs the Packers and Ben failed. So it's a crap shoot.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:33 PM
Marino got to the SB in his second year. How about Rivers?

So getting to the SB is getting over the hump? How many times did he make it after that? How many SB's has Brady won since 04 when Weiss left? Most people would say Brady is a better QB since 04 and yet no success.

Nadroj 20
07-28-2011, 04:41 PM
Depends.... There isn't clutch players. Just success and failure in clutch moments. Why chose a player off situational football. Situations that aren't consistent. I mean we saw with 2 minutes left, down 6 in the SB needing about a 70 yd drive to win vs the Packers and Ben failed. So it's a crap shoot.

I dont buy that. There are clutch players in this sport and every other sport out there, always has been always will be. Players that seem to get it done in clutch situations more time then not, (last years SB happened to be a "not" for Ben). It is in no way a crap shoot.

Ben wins games and there is nobody I'd rather have with the game on the line. Does that make him the best QB in the league? Not necessarily. But it only puts very few ahead of him.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 04:45 PM
Ok you keep a QB who has never led a top 3, top 5, top 6, top 7 scoring offense and I'm sure SD will keep a QB who has never had worse than a top 5 scoring offense and a QB who has scored more points per game than any QB in history.

You do that. And we'll keep winning SBs while you keep wandering the Web bragging about Rivers' awesome FF stats while your trophy case stays bare.:lol:

X-Terminator
07-28-2011, 04:49 PM
So getting to the SB is getting over the hump? How many times did he make it after that? How many SB's has Brady won since 04 when Weiss left? Most people would say Brady is a better QB since 04 and yet no success.

As much as I hate Marsha, at least he has been to the SB once since 2004. Rivers? Zippo.

Ben has been to the SB 3 times in the past 6 years. Rivers? Zippo.

Ben is also 11-3 in the postseason...again, when it matters the most. Far better than your boy's 3-4.

Again, your team has been loaded with talent. Rivers has had better skill players than Ben has had until last season. Rivers has also had a better OL than Ben has had since 2005. And what has he done with it? Zippo.

But you go right ahead and keep believing Ben sucks and hasn't done a thing to earn his 3 SB trips and 2 rings, fantasy football boy.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:55 PM
I dont buy that. There are clutch players in this sport and every other sport out there, always has been always will be. Players that seem to get it done in clutch situations more time then not, (last years SB happened to be a "not" for Ben). It is in no way a crap shoot.

Ben wins games and there is nobody I'd rather have with the game on the line. Does that make him the best QB in the league? Not necessarily. But it only puts very few ahead of him.

If you are clutch, then there is no failing... Fast players are not fast sometimes. Powerful players are not powerful sometimes. There is no such thing as clutch players. Just clutch moments and every QB has their share.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:56 PM
You do that. And we'll keep winning SBs while you keep wandering the Web bragging about Rivers' awesome FF stats while your trophy case stays bare.:lol:

The minute your defenses goes, you will see the harsh reality of how of the top 10 QB's in the NFL, Ben's team is more dependent on the defense than the QB. That defense is not getting any younger.

Nadroj 20
07-28-2011, 04:59 PM
If you are clutch, then there is no failing... Fast players are not fast sometimes. Powerful players are not powerful sometimes. There is no such thing as clutch players. Just clutch moments and every QB has their share.

How did you come up with that definition because its the first time I've ever heard that!! :chuckle:

Fine don't use the word "clutch"...Ben wins games better then Rivers. Plain and simple.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 04:59 PM
The minute your defenses goes, you will see the harsh reality of how of the top 10 QB's in the NFL, Ben's team is more dependent on the defense than the QB. That defense is not getting any younger.

And we'll continue to watch Rivers rack up monster fantasy stats only to shit the bed in the postseason when it matters most, like he's done pretty much his whole career up to now.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 04:59 PM
As much as I hate Marsha, at least he has been to the SB once since 2004. Rivers? Zippo.

Ben has been to the SB 3 times in the past 6 years. Rivers? Zippo.

Ben is also 11-3 in the postseason...again, when it matters the most. Far better than your boy's 3-4.

Again, your team has been loaded with talent. Rivers has had better skill players than Ben has had until last season. Rivers has also had a better OL than Ben has had since 2005. And what has he done with it? Zippo.

But you go right ahead and keep believing Ben sucks and hasn't done a thing to earn his 3 SB trips and 2 rings, fantasy football boy.

Ben is 10-3 and many of those wins were while he played bad. Just look at Ben's numbers for the 3 SB's combined. On any team outside the Steelers and possibly the Ravens, no way does Ben have 5 playoff wins. That team goes as the defense goes. 3-1 this year without Ben. Including a win over the #1 NFC seed. With their 3rd string QB. Take Troy out of the lineup and we saw how great Pit was in 09.

Ben is great with Pit, but outside Pit, he is not a Rivers or Peyton or others who could have the same impact and value on any team. You realize Ben has never made the playoffs without a top 3 scoring defense. What top 15 QB can't make the playoffs with a top 3 scoring defense?

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:01 PM
How did you come up with that definition because its the first time I've ever heard that!! :chuckle:

Fine don't use the word "clutch"...Ben wins games better then Rivers. Plain and simple.

It's just logic. Outside of the SB vs the Cardinals, when has ben had a clutch post season TD?

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:03 PM
And we'll continue to watch Rivers rack up monster fantasy stats only to shit the bed in the postseason when it matters most, like he's done pretty much his whole career up to now.

Yeah fantasy stats, right? Because if you look at the past 20 years, generally the QB's who are the most productive are the ones with good seasons and their teams win games. The ones towards the bottom have bad seasons and lose. In the middle, it can go either way depending how good of a team they have.

They aren't fantasy stats. They are winning game productivity. They are DOING your job on a team of 54 players, 3 units and multiple coaches. If your QB is tearing it up, it increases your chances of winning. With inferior coaches and defenses, Rivers winning percentage is right there with Brady and Ben and 1 season can have him surpassing them.

HometownGal
07-28-2011, 05:03 PM
And we'll continue to watch Rivers rack up monster fantasy stats only to shit the bed in the postseason when it matters most.

And BINGO is his name-o. :applaudit:

Rivers is a great stats and FF machine but stats and FF don't win Super Bowls.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:03 PM
Ben is 10-3 and many of those wins were while he played bad. Just look at Ben's numbers for the 3 SB's combined. On any team outside the Steelers and possibly the Ravens, no way does Ben have 5 playoff wins. That team goes as the defense goes. 3-1 this year without Ben. Including a win over the #1 NFC seed. With their 3rd string QB. Take Troy out of the lineup and we saw how great Pit was in 09.

Ben is great with Pit, but outside Pit, he is not a Rivers or Peyton or others who could have the same impact and value on any team. You realize Ben has never made the playoffs without a top 3 scoring defense. What top 15 QB can't make the playoffs with a top 3 scoring defense?

When has Rivers ever lit it up in the postseason himself? And as X-T noted, before last year, Rivers had superior skill players alongside of him on offense than Ben, and still has a far better O-line.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:06 PM
They aren't fantasy stats. They are winning game productivity. They are DOING your job on a team of 54 players, 3 units and multiple coaches. If your QB is tearing it up, it increases your chances of winning. With inferior coaches and defenses, Rivers winning percentage is right there with Brady and Ben and 1 season can have him surpassing them.

Bottom line, once again:

In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

Nadroj 20
07-28-2011, 05:09 PM
It's just logic. Outside of the SB vs the Cardinals, when has ben had a clutch post season TD?

Clutch does NOT mean just TD's. Its overall performance. Game on the line Ben is the best available guy.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:09 PM
When has Rivers ever lit it up in the postseason himself? And as X-T noted, before last year, Rivers had superior skill players alongside of him on offense than Ben, and still has a far better O-line.


In 07, 08 and 09 vs the #1, #1 and #1 defenses, two of the games on the road. With no running game in either of those games.

In the 3 games combined SD had a grand total of 175 rushing yds. 58 yds a game.

Rivers number: 62 for 94, 66% comp, 9.2 avg, 7.4 TD%, 4.2 INT%, 7 tds, 4 ints, (1 more rushing TD) 8 total, 870 yds and 102.7 QB rating


Also I will take superior defense and superior coach over slightly better skill position players.

Lets not act like Ben has had chop liver and like Ben doesn't have a tendency to hold the ball long.

Butch
07-28-2011, 05:10 PM
It's just logic. Outside of the SB vs the Cardinals, when has ben had a clutch post season TD?

LOL you're funny!!!

Which Superbowl did rivers win again??? Hell how many has he been to (not including watching from the stands).

Outside of his stats what else does rivers have to hang his hat on???

To answer your question in just one example Ben Tackled the colt who recovered the fumble by Jerome. Ok so he didn't throw it he saved one from happening.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:14 PM
Also I will take superior defense and superior coach over slightly better skill position players.

Slightly better? Delusional. Rivers had at his disposal at one point the best RB in the business and still has the best TE in the business, and V-Jack is equal to, if not better than, anyone in our WR corps now (Wallace and Sanders are still quite green). And we won SB XLIII with BY FAR the worst OL of any SB-winning team in history.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:18 PM
Bottom line, once again:

In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating.

True. In 7 SB and AFCC games, Ben is 5-2 somehow. Yet 8 tds and 10 ints 59.1% comp 1531 yds and 76.2 QB rating.

Yet the team is somehow 5-2 in those games. But then again the wins came vs a avg Seahawks, Cardinals and Broncos teams that were over achievers and not elite teams. Then 2 teams led by avg QB's in Sanchez and Flacco.

The 2 losses were vs teams with top 6 QB's and top 3 defenses. Just saying! Pit has had some ideal matchups.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:20 PM
Then 2 teams led by avg QB's in Sanchez and Flacco.

Yep, pretty much the same Sanchez-led team the oh-so-awesome Rivers couldn't beat in the postseason. At home, no less.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:22 PM
LOL you're funny!!!

Which Superbowl did rivers win again??? Hell how many has he been to (not including watching from the stands).

Outside of his stats what else does rivers have to hang his hat on???

To answer your question in just one example Ben Tackled the colt who recovered the fumble by Jerome. Ok so he didn't throw it he saved one from happening.

Outside of his stats, you mean PRODUCTIVITY? What more does he need? When you are the most consistent and efficient QB and the most productive the past 3 years. When you are the highest scoring QB per game in NFL history, you are doing your job. Teams win games. It's about coaching, offene, defense, special teams, preparation, game plans, matchups, lucky bounces of the ball (Steve Johnson dropping a game winning TD in the Bills game) or favorable calls (The Miami fumble by Ben), injuries.

All you can ask of a QB is put your offense in the best position to win, which in return helps your team, but doesn't guarantee anything. Rivers does that as good as anyone who has ever played. Sorry that he doesn't coach, or play defense, or play HB, or play special teams. Sorry that he isn't a stubborn GM.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:25 PM
Slightly better? Delusional. Rivers had at his disposal at one point the best RB in the business and still has the best TE in the business, and V-Jack is equal to, if not better than, anyone in our WR corps now (Wallace and Sanders are still quite green). And we won SB XLIII with BY FAR the worst OL of any SB-winning team in history.

Remind me how many great games LT has had in the playoffs??

Lets not act like Ben has had Wallace, Holmes, Ward, Plax, Miller, Mendenhall, Parker, Bettis. Yes he won a SB vs a 9-7 team with a bad defense and needed his defense to make a 100 yd int on a 14 point swing before half time to win.

You must hate the steelers, to give so much credit to Ben, when anyone with eyes can see how much that team comes through in the big games.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:26 PM
Yep, pretty much the same Sanchez-led team the oh-so-awesome Rivers couldn't beat in the postseason. At home, no less.


In a 3 point loss, where his kicker missed 3 FG's. How about Ben losing to Gerrard at home while throwing 3 ints?? Something Rivers has never done in any game he has ever played in the pros?

X-Terminator
07-28-2011, 05:26 PM
Ben is 10-3 and many of those wins were while he played bad. Just look at Ben's numbers for the 3 SB's combined. On any team outside the Steelers and possibly the Ravens, no way does Ben have 5 playoff wins. That team goes as the defense goes. 3-1 this year without Ben. Including a win over the #1 NFC seed. With their 3rd string QB. Take Troy out of the lineup and we saw how great Pit was in 09.

Ben is great with Pit, but outside Pit, he is not a Rivers or Peyton or others who could have the same impact and value on any team. You realize Ben has never made the playoffs without a top 3 scoring defense. What top 15 QB can't make the playoffs with a top 3 scoring defense?

You know, it's funny. You want to penalize Ben for having great defenses, but give Rivers a pass even though his teams have had superior talent and has won exactly jack and shit. I firmly believe if you give Ben the same talent that Rivers has had, he would put up the same numbers. The only reason Ben hasn't done it to this point is because he isn't asked to do it. Tell me...how is it Ben's fault the Steelers' D is usually great? I might also add that the Steelers do not make it to Super Bowl XL if Cowher doesn't take the reins off Ben. He beat Manning that year, for crying out loud. Yeah, that guy who can throw 6 INTs and yet the Chargers still find a way to lose the game. After that, he goes on the road and dismantled a pretty good Broncos defense that had just beaten the Cheats the week before. All of his haters overlook that, and instead focus on how he's played in the SB. But hey, at least we CAN discuss that about Ben, unlike your boy Rivers.

*Insert random Rivers is God, Ben is terrible BS here*

*EDIT* Wait a minute...I finally figured it out. This guy is either UltimateFootballNetwork (aka "Ultimate Fuck Nuckle") or "St. Ben Godsend" Jeremy. Why didn't I figure that out before? :doh:

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:28 PM
In a 3 point loss, where his kicker missed 3 FG's. How about Ben losing to Gerrard at home while throwing 3 ints?? Something Rivers has never done in any game he has ever played in the pros?

Why does such a great QB need a kicker to bail him out? Especially one of the "best ever?" :rolleyes:

Sure, and Ben also helped bring the Steelers all the way back against the Jaguars and took the lead only to lose it on a last minute field goal. Isn't cherry-picking facts fun?

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:32 PM
Remind me how many great games LT has had in the playoffs??

Off the top of my head, LDT was pretty much ripping NE a new asshole in the playoffs in '06, until Marty put the ball in the Mighty Rivers' hands in the second half and he promptly lost the game.

The Duke
07-28-2011, 05:33 PM
So Ben has ideal matchups, a dominating defense, luck and poor fantasy numbers

Nothing is by himself. Nope, nada

People are never going to realize that this team goes where Ben goes

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:36 PM
You know, it's funny. You want to penalize Ben for having great defenses, but give Rivers a pass even though his teams have had superior talent and has won exactly jack and shit. I firmly believe if you give Ben the same talent that Rivers has had, he would put up the same numbers. The only reason Ben hasn't done it to this point is because he isn't asked to do it. Tell me...how is it Ben's fault the Steelers' D is usually great? I might also add that the Steelers do not make it to Super Bowl XL if Cowher doesn't take the reins off Ben. He beat Manning that year, for crying out loud. Yeah, that guy who can throw 6 INTs and yet the Chargers still find a way to lose the game. After that, he goes on the road and dismantled a pretty good Broncos defense that had just beaten the Cheats the week before. All of his haters overlook that, and instead focus on how he's played in the SB. But hey, at least we CAN discuss that about Ben, unlike your boy Rivers.

*Insert random Rivers is God, Ben is terrible BS here*

Penalize? No, but distribute the credit where it belongs. Did I make up the age old addage of defense wins championships? Has anyone outside of Montana's 49'ers have a defense as consistently dominant as Ben has had? Even then Joe had dominant numbers in the SB's. Again remind me how great SD's TALENT has played in the playoffs. How many clutch plays they have come up with?

2 of the 3 seasons Ben has thrown for over 450 times, where his 2 worst statistical seasons and the 1 time he threw over 500 times, the team missed the playoffs. In 2 of the 3 seasons with over 450 attempts Pit missed the playoffs. Rivers is 2-0 vs Peyton in the playoffs.

Rivers vs the 09 Jets who had a much better defense than the 2010 Jets, played better vs them at home than Ben did vs the Jets at home in 2010. With a worse defense than the 2010 Steelers defense and less of a running game than the 2010 Steelers. Also had his kicker miss 3 FG's in the game.

The 05 Broncos were an overrated team and the 05 Pats were 1-3 vs the AFCW, 1-4 counting the playoffs.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:38 PM
Why does such a great QB need a kicker to bail him out? Especially one of the "best ever?" :rolleyes:

Sure, and Ben also helped bring the Steelers all the way back against the Jaguars and took the lead only to lose it on a last minute field goal. Isn't cherry-picking facts fun?

Doesn't Brady have 3 SB rings due to 3 FG's. Didn't Brees make it to the SB due to a FG in the NFCC game. So is that loss on Ben? No? Yet vs the Jets that loss is on Rivers, yet his kicker missed 3 kicks in a 3 point loss? Funny no?

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:40 PM
Off the top of my head, LDT was pretty much ripping NE a new asshole in the playoffs in '06, until Marty put the ball in the Mighty Rivers' hands in the second half and he promptly lost the game.


That is the one game LT went off in. Then stopped getting the ball in the 2nd half. SD had the game won on a 4th down INT, then proceeded to fumble the ball and let NE come back. Rivers then with 0 timeouts, goes from SD's 25 yd line with 1:03 left in the game to NE's 34 and Kaeding proceeds to miss the tying kick.

Compare that to Ben's first season starting vs NE in the playoffs in 04.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:43 PM
Rivers vs the 09 Jets who had a much better defense than the 2010 Jets, played better vs them at home than Ben did vs the Jets at home in 2010.

27-40 for 298, with 1 TD and 2 INTs? Yeah, those are killer numbers there, guy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:43 PM
So Ben has ideal matchups, a dominating defense, luck and poor fantasy numbers

Nothing is by himself. Nope, nada

People are never going to realize that this team goes where Ben goes

PIT has had some favorable matchups in the playoffs. 04 Jets, 05 Bengals with no Palmer, 05 Seattle and Denver. 08 Chargers and Cardinals.

They do have a dominant defense. Not much luck in the playoffs. But some big plays by the defense. Ben has had a couple of very productive seasons, but way to inconsistent.

Yeah you are right as evidence by this year that PIT was on pace for 12-4 without Ben, with their 3-1 start.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 05:44 PM
27-40 for 298, with 1 TD and 2 INTs? Yeah, those are killer numbers there, guy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Compared to Ben's 10 of 19 for 133 yds 0 tds and 2 ints with a 35.5 QB rating?

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:48 PM
Yet vs the Jets that loss is on Rivers, yet his kicker missed 3 kicks in a 3 point loss? Funny no?

What you're seeming to miss here is that since Rivers is so far and away superior to Roethlisberger as a QB in every conceivable way, as you claim, shouldn't he be held to a higher standard? Shouldn't a QB so statistically dominant be able to guide his offense to more than 14 points at home in a playoff game?

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 05:50 PM
Compared to Ben's 10 of 19 for 133 yds 0 tds and 2 ints with a 35.5 QB rating?

No, for one of the "best ever," 27-40 for 298 yards with 2 INTs against 1 TD is a red-letter day. :rolleyes:

See, I'm not claiming my QB is one of the "best ever." He's not even the best QB in my franchise's history, IMO. That's the difference.

Nadroj 20
07-28-2011, 05:51 PM
We can compare numbers all day and debate back and forth using examples and both sides are going to have their bias. so if its this debatable and they are somewhat close as QB's in the NFL lets go to something else that matters.... 2 SB's vs Zippo.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 06:02 PM
What you're seeming to miss here is that since Rivers is so far and away superior to Roethlisberger as a QB in every conceivable way, as you claim, shouldn't he be held to a higher standard? Shouldn't a QB so statistically dominant be able to guide his offense to more than 14 points at home in a playoff game?

Isn't Brady considered far superior to Romo? Yet didn't the 07 Pats in the SB score 14 points? Which is less than the 07 Cowboys did vs the same Giants?

Again I have Rivers top 3, Ben top 6. Not sure how "FARRR" superior I have implied Rivers is. I think from the stand point of a QB's job description, Rivers is clearly better. When you want to start throwing in team achievements or requirements as player assessments and skill indicators, your argument looks more futile.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 06:03 PM
We can compare numbers all day and debate back and forth using examples and both sides are going to have their bias.

Yep, and it's obvious neither side is gonna budge. In all honesty, I think Rivers is a very good QB and the Chargers as a team have been hamstrung to some extent by Norv Turner (great offensive coordinator, LOUSY head coach). And he does do some things better than Roethlisberger (his deep ball is much more accurate, for one). However, I still think Roethlisberger is very much underestimated by opposing team's fans as to how much value he has to this team. That's about the last I'll probably say about it as it's a fruitless argument.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 06:05 PM
No, for one of the "best ever," 27-40 for 298 yards with 2 INTs against 1 TD is a red-letter day. :rolleyes:

See, I'm not claiming my QB is one of the "best ever." He's not even the best QB in my franchise's history, IMO. That's the difference.

I said Rivers is one of the best ever at doing what the immediate job description is for a QB. Unfortunately QB's are judged by many more variables than just what their position entails by definition. I think it's bogus, but it's the standard. By that regard, when you start adding in random variables he is not one of the best ever.

Beside Peyton IMO might be the best ever and he has had several bad games. As has Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, Lawerence Taylor, Troy P, etc.

Also, Rivers did have a rushing TD in that game vs the Jets.

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 06:07 PM
Yep, and it's obvious neither side is gonna budge. In all honesty, I think Rivers is a very good QB and the Chargers as a team have been hamstrung to some extent by Norv Turner (great offensive coordinator, LOUSY head coach). And he does do some things better than Roethlisberger (his deep ball is much more accurate, for one). However, I still think Roethlisberger is very much underestimated by opposing team's fans as to how much value he has to this team. That's about the last I'll probably say about it as it's a fruitless argument.

I can agree with that. My intention was not to come here and bash Ben. I was searching some info on the net and came across this thread and saw people saying Rivers sucks and baby, bad leader. Now I get this is the "smack section". But ignorance can't be ignored. Rivers and Ben are franchise QB's and elite. To say either sucks is trolling. Questioning the personality or leadership without real validity is also questionable.

fansince'76
07-28-2011, 06:12 PM
I can agree with that. My intention was not to come here and bash Ben. I was searching some info on the net and came across this thread and saw people saying Rivers sucks and baby, bad leader. Now I get this is the "smack section". But ignorance can't be ignored. Rivers and Ben are franchise QB's and elite. To say either sucks is trolling. Questioning the personality or leadership without real validity is also questionable.

I was one of those who questioned Rivers as a leader until I saw him gut it out with bad knees in the AFCCG. He's definitely a tough player worthy of respect. And I was rooting for the Chargers in that game, primarily out of my intense dislike for all things Patriots. :chuckle: :drink:

Footballanalyst
07-28-2011, 06:14 PM
I was one of those who questioned Rivers as a leader until I saw him gut it out with bad knees in the AFCCG. He's definitely a tough player worthy of respect. And I was rooting for the Chargers in that game, primarily out of my intense dislike for all things Patriots. :chuckle: :drink:

Same goes for Ben and the amount of injuries he plays with and hits he takes. Arguably the 2 toughest QB's in the league, with Favre out of it. Not so sure about their 04 counter part in Eli.

X-Terminator
07-29-2011, 07:58 AM
You have to understand, dude...Steelers fans have just about had it up to here with the lack of respect Ben gets from opposing team fans, his off-the-field issues aside. No, he's not the best QB in the league, but he's a damn good one, and he does a LOT more than ride shotgun for a team with a great defense. Something that opposing team fans and fantasy football geeks simply cannot comprehend. So you'll have to excuse us for being a little defensive and, quite honestly, a little bit pissed off.

polamalubeast
07-29-2011, 11:52 AM
in 13 playoff games, Roethlisberger helped the Steelers to score an average of 26.5 per game!!! .... this is the 3rd best average of all time by a QB that has had at least 10 start. ... of course, Rodgers is going to soon be exceeded, but it will still be 4th.....Rivers had just 19 points per game.

The Steelers have scored at least 20 points in 13 games with Roethlisberger......The Chargers score less than 20 points in three of seven games with Rivers.

In the three loss of Ben Roethlisberger in playoff, the Steelers to score on average 27 POINTS PER GAME

And Roethlisberger, he had 3200 yards in just 12 games .... He would have had his 2nd straight season of more than 4,000 yards if he had not been suspended.

steeldevil
07-29-2011, 12:10 PM
I said Rivers is one of the best ever at doing what the immediate job description is for a QB. Unfortunately QB's are judged by many more variables than just what their position entails by definition. I think it's bogus, but it's the standard. By that regard, when you start adding in random variables he is not one of the best ever.

Beside Peyton IMO might be the best ever and he has had several bad games. As has Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, Lawerence Taylor, Troy P, etc.

Also, Rivers did have a rushing TD in that game vs the Jets.

The job description for a QB is to lead him team to a win. Always has been, always will be.

Ben does his job better than Rivers does. End of story.

HometownGal
08-03-2011, 04:03 PM
Hey - where did Philip Rivers' hemorrhoid go? :noidea:

Did he get cyber-zapped with a tube of Prep H?

Count Steeler
08-03-2011, 05:59 PM
I'm getting sick of lists and comparisons, especially this off season. As a Steelers fan, I am more than happy to have Ben as our QB. Would I be happy if Rivers was our QB? Don't know. I'm sure he would have been molded differently than the way he was in San Diego. I'm sure walking by 6 Lombardis every day sure would do something to your head. With the tradition and the winning attitude of the Pittsburgh Steelers, even Rivers had a chance of being a great QB here. We will never know though, Ben is here to stay and hopefully help us win 2 or 3 more Lombardis.

tube517
08-03-2011, 10:09 PM
Hey - where did Philip Rivers' hemorrhoid go? :noidea:

Did he get cyber-zapped with a tube of Prep H?

Somebody call me? :chuckle:

This thread was making me sleepy. I cannot believe it's still active. :zzz:

tube517
08-03-2011, 10:14 PM
I was one of those who questioned Rivers as a leader until I saw him gut it out with bad knees in the AFCCG. He's definitely a tough player worthy of respect. And I was rooting for the Chargers in that game, primarily out of my intense dislike for all things Patriots. :chuckle: :drink:


I have to agree with FS 76. I don't hate Rivers as much as others. I liked it when he got into it with Cutler. Statistically, he's one of the better QB's and probably a better pure "passer" than Ben. But, I'd still take Ben over Rivers in any matchup except Fantasy Football stats.

steeldevil
08-04-2011, 04:22 PM
Hey - where did Philip Rivers' hemorrhoid go? :noidea:

Did he get cyber-zapped with a tube of Prep H?

I bet he will be back.

Let me draw him out.

PHILLIP RIVERS SUCKS!!!

Edman
08-19-2011, 02:17 PM
Compare that to Ben's first season starting vs NE in the playoffs in 04.


Ben's Rookie Season hitting the wall vs. Phillip Rivers' playoff season after spending two seasons on the bench learning behind Drew Brees in San Diego.

Rivers couldn't have walked into a better situation in San Diego. He got everything a young QB dreamed of. Veteran Team, an All-Pro Feature Back, an All-Pro TE, Wide Recievers, a competent Defense. Nobody is denying he's a good QB, but there really is no excuse for his inability to get the job done in the postseason.

polamalubeast
08-28-2011, 01:47 PM
Brees declined a bit last season, Peyton is coming off injury. AFCN has an easy schedule and the Steelers potentially have the best receiving core they've had in years.

I'll take Ben.

Are you serious? LOL

Who would ever take Ben over Rivers, Brees, or Manning? I thought after the terrible SB games Steelers fans would have learned that Big Ben is NOT an elite QB. With that defense they should have won more SBs.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=457633&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

fansince'76
08-28-2011, 01:55 PM
Brees declined a bit last season, Peyton is coming off injury. AFCN has an easy schedule and the Steelers potentially have the best receiving core they've had in years.

I'll take Ben.

Are you serious? LOL

Who would ever take Ben over Rivers, Brees, or Manning? I thought after the terrible SB games Steelers fans would have learned that Big Ben is NOT an elite QB. With that defense they should have won more SBs.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=457633&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

And by that rationale, Manning should have more than one ring based on the fact that the Colts have been absolutely LOADED on the offensive side of the ball for the last decade+ and due to the slow but sure pussification of the game with rules changes that have largely and increasingly hamstrung defenses. And if Manning (or River or Brees) had to play behind the OL that Ben has gotten routinely beaten up behind for the last 6 years, he'd have already been forced to retire.

X-Terminator
08-28-2011, 05:11 PM
And among those three QBs, they have 2 rings and 3 SB appearances between them. The same number Ben has BY HIMSELF.

The disrespect continues. I guess Ben will just have to win another SB while having an MVP-type season for him to finally get the respect he deserves. There's no question that he is one of the top 5 QBs in the league, behind Marsha, St. Manning, Brees and Rodgers.

Vis
08-28-2011, 05:33 PM
Rivers is really good. So is Ben. Ben has turned it on in big games and won. Rivers hasn't, yet.

fansince'76
08-28-2011, 08:26 PM
And among those three QBs, they have 2 rings and 3 SB appearances between them. The same number Ben has BY HIMSELF.


ZOMG! If they woulda had Pittsburgh's defense, they woulda won 50 Super Bowls, at least!!! :rolleyes: :jerkit:

polamalubeast
08-28-2011, 09:18 PM
for all the love that the Steelers' defense gets, in the 13 games Ben has played in the postseason, the Steelers offense has averaged 26 ppg and the defense has averaged 21 ppg allowed, and that is accounting for defensive TDs scored and return TDs allowed

Steelers' offense has not had a single game under 20 points produced. Not one single time.

What is truly scary is what could happen if Ben wasn't saddled with the most laughably pathetic offensive line to make it to the postseason each year since 2006.

salamander
08-28-2011, 09:34 PM
Simple...

Ben has been to 3 Super Bowls, winning 2 of them.

Rivers has been to none.

In my book, that's all that matters.

Count Steeler
08-28-2011, 09:35 PM
Ben = winner, Philip = whiner. 'Nuff said.

fansince'76
08-28-2011, 09:37 PM
What is truly scary is what could happen if Ben wasn't saddled with the most laughably pathetic offensive line to make it to the postseason each year since 2006.

This. As an example, behind our OL, Brady would get the same kind of pressure EVERY GAME (until he inevitably wound up on IR, anyway) that he faced against the Lions last night and he sure as shit didn't look so elite against Suh and Company, did he?

zulater
10-25-2011, 06:09 AM
Rivers, 7 td's 9 interceptions, and one of the worst excuses for a two minute drill I've ever seen. Where the hell is Mr. Rivers is so freaking much better, not even debatable at today? :coffee:

zulater
10-25-2011, 06:10 AM
You do realize Rivers has a better winning percentage vs the AFCN than Ben does vs the AFCW. Not to mention the AFCW since 06 has had better pass defenses than any other division. Also to boot 3 of the 5 best CB's have been in the AFCW. Aso, Champ and Flowers.

Also since you like profootball reference, go look at Ben vs Rivers career QB rating vs every division and Rivers is virtually better vs almost every division.

As for the game against each other. Rivers played vs the #1 defense and had 300 yds 3 tds and 1 int with over 100 passer rating. With 15 yds rushing from his team, a punt return allowed for a TD and 13 seconds of possession in the entire 3rd qtr. Ben vs a bad SD 08 defense had 1 td and under 200 yds.

Ok you keep a QB who has never led a top 3, top 5, top 6, top 7 scoring offense and I'm sure SD will keep a QB who has never had worse than a top 5 scoring offense and a QB who has scored more points per game than any QB in history.

As they say DEFENSE wins championships and Ben has had by light years the better defense. They don't say o-line wins championships, or TE's or RB's.

You do realize that you're completely full of shit?

fansince'76
10-25-2011, 02:36 PM
Rivers, 7 td's 9 interceptions, and one of the worst excuses for a two minute drill I've ever seen. Where the hell is Mr. Rivers is so freaking much better, not even debatable at today? :coffee:

But, but, but, Ben has better weapons. :jerkit:

polamalubeast
10-25-2011, 05:23 PM
Rivers has never fared well against top defenses. Passer rating vs or PPG he's got a terrible record production wise.

So this year has he actually faced some good defenses for once? I haven't seen the Chargers schedule. I saw him in two games this year and the Jets really over matched him. The Patriots similarly gave him a hard time (they are rising rapidly in the ranks but still not an elite defense).

Rivers has ZERO games where he has a positive TD-INT against top defenses. Zero...

I don't think he's declining. I just don't think he was ever THAT good. He was just very advantaged by consistently playing very mediocre defensive teams. Brady, Manning, and Rodgers have all faced significantly more top defenses annually than has Rivers inflating his numbers.....



http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=465814&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105

fansince'76
10-29-2012, 12:45 PM
I think you have to agree Rivers is decisively a better QB, I'm not sure a legit argument exist for Ben. Before I get started showing clearly and decisively how Rivers is not only better, but by a good margin.

Would someone like to start their first argument, that I will proceed to tear apart? Or should I just lay it all out now?

Wonder if this guy has retired his Philip Rivers fathead yet. Yeah, dude, Rivers is WAAAAYYYY better! :jerkit:

Devilsdancefloor
10-29-2012, 12:51 PM
Wonder if this guy has retired his Philip Rivers fathead yet. Yeah, dude, Rivers is WAAAAYYYY better! :jerkit:

i forgot about that douche! Nah, he is sticking to his story cause he can tear anyone's argument apart!

ALLD
10-29-2012, 03:47 PM
Tony Romo is now better than Phil Rivers and he is a choke artist.

86WARD
10-29-2012, 04:16 PM
Spin the stats however you want and then look at their play on the field...Rivers play is horrible!!

polamalubeast
10-29-2012, 04:17 PM
Ben vs Eli is by far a better Comparisons!

86WARD
10-29-2012, 04:28 PM
Ben vs Eli is by far a better Comparisons!


FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR Better. Cutler/Rivers <<<<<<<<< Ben/Eli.

zulater
11-01-2012, 08:04 PM
If you're a Charger's fan you probably stay awake at night wondering what would have happened if Marty Shottenheimer had won the power struggle over A.J. Smith and had drafted Larry Fitzgerald in the 04 draft to compliment his franchise quarterback Drew Brees. :lol:

Seven
11-01-2012, 10:21 PM
Now here is a discussion that isn't even close. Phil Rivers hasn't even been a good player in two seasons now. I think he has lost too much arm strength. His awkward delivery could be the reason for that. If you ask me his 'pitch count' has just been too high for that arm to handle over the course of his career. Maybe he turns it around, but the dude looks like he is almost done to me. That team needs to switch to a true west coast offense if they want Rivers to be the answer.

Dwinsgames
11-28-2012, 07:55 PM
wanted to ask Grachuus ( who is now long gone ) how many Rings did Rivers bring home to San Diego because at the end of the day anything less that hoisting the Lombardi is a failure for all 32 teams in the league

Edman
12-04-2012, 01:01 AM
Rivers is not only inferior to Ben, it's questionable to even consider him "good" anymore. His arm is dead.

steeldawg
12-04-2012, 05:46 AM
I think what your seeing now is that rivers was a product of the talent around him, where as qbs like ben ans manning make the talent around them better. So when rivers came into the league he joined a very talented san diego team and being a decent qb he started very strong.

polamalubeast
12-04-2012, 08:57 AM
The chargers are 21-23 and no playoffs apparence since L.T left SD