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View Full Version : Kevin Colbert vs the number 1 overall pick



zulater
02-21-2011, 09:49 PM
Kevin Colbert was hired by the Steelers on Febuary 15 2000, and has presided over every draft since. So here's the Steelers number one picks, with draft order in parenthesis, vs the number one overall pick in each year's respective draft. I'll let you be the judge over who fared best.

2000

NFL: Browns, Courtney Brown

Steelers: (8) Plaxico Burress

2001

NFL: Falcons, Micheal Vick

Steelers: (19) Casey Hampton

2002

NFL: Texans, David Carr

Steelers: (30) Kendall Simmons

2003

NFL: Bengals, Carson Palmer

Steelers: (16*) Troy Polamalu

2004

NFL: Giants, Eli Manning

Steelers: (11) Ben Roethlisberger

2005

NFL: 49'ers, Alex Smith

Steelers: (30) Heath Miller

2006

NFL: Texans, Mario Williams

Steelers: (25**) Santonio Holmes

2007

NFL: Raiders, Jamarcus Russell

Steelers: (15) Lawrence Timmons

2008

NFL: Dolphins, Jake Long

Steelers: (23) Rashard Mendenhall

2009

NFL:Lions, Matthew Stafford

Steelers: (32) Ziggy Hood

2010

NFL: Rams, Sam Bradford

Steelers: (18) Maukice Pouncey

* traded up from 27
** traded up from 32

Explains a lot huh? And for those that want to claim the Steelers are old or going away, I don't think so, not as long as we keep drafting like this.

7willBheaven
02-21-2011, 10:12 PM
He's done pretty good with first rounders....its the rest of the draft that is hit or miss, haha.

I will say besides 06 and 08 the Steelers pick versus the #1 pick (which were about even) they've done better each year than the 1st pick.

zulater
02-22-2011, 06:36 AM
He's done pretty good with first rounders....its the rest of the draft that is hit or miss, haha.

I will say besides 06 and 08 the Steelers pick versus the #1 pick (which were about even) they've done better each year than the 1st pick.

I know you're joking, but a lot of people I know really think that way, and imo they are pretty misinformed if you compare Colbert to the rest of the league.

Yeah he's missed famously on some picks in the 2nd round on, but he's also hit huge with many as well, certainly better than most of his peers. .

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-22-2011, 09:35 AM
I dont see the point of comparing the #1 overall pick vs the #15-32 pick?????

Having the #1 overall pick is not really a blessing, but a penalty for finishing last. They have to pay an unproven rookie a ton of cash and for that reason a lot of the guys that are taken are for "upside". Like Alex Smith, JaMarcus Russell, David Carr, etc.

Colbert is a good GM and probably has a good team of scouts. Chances are you will get a good football player in the 1st round and if you are picking in the bottom half of the 1st then you can get a guy who is a solid football player without having to take a risk on a QB that might not pan out.

zulater
02-22-2011, 11:42 AM
I dont see the point of comparing the #1 overall pick vs the #15-32 pick?????

What the hell? I think most people would assume the closer you pick to the top of the round the more success you're going to have and the less risky the pick will be. Look at what's happening now, everyone assumes since we're picking at the bottom of the round that we wont be able to get an elite corner, or OT. And yet you're trying to tell us that picking at the top of the round is a disadvantage? .

Having the #1 overall pick is not really a blessing, but a penalty for finishing last. They have to pay an unproven rookie a ton of cash and for that reason a lot of the guys that are taken are for "upside". Like Alex Smith, JaMarcus Russell, David Carr, etc.

That's just stupidity on those teams part.

Colbert is a good GM and probably has a good team of scouts. Chances are you will get a good football player in the 1st round and if you are picking in the bottom half of the 1st then you can get a guy who is a solid football player without having to take a risk on a QB that might not pan out.

Find me another team that has got near the production out of the first round as the Steelers have out of the last 11 drafts? I don't care where they've been picking, no other teams got the number of blue chip players as the Steelers have from the draft, particuarly from the first round.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge Colbert is really good at what he does?

siss
02-22-2011, 11:46 AM
I've always said the Steelers won the 2004 draft.

zulater
02-22-2011, 11:49 AM
http://www.drafthistory.com/teams_by_year.html

Here's a link, someone find me a team that's got comparable value from the first round as the Steelers have.

Godfather
02-22-2011, 01:42 PM
Colts haven't done too badly:

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/colts.html

SMR
02-22-2011, 02:33 PM
I've always said the Steelers won the 2004 draft.

Can't argue with that!

polamalubeast
02-22-2011, 02:59 PM
I've always said the Steelers won the 2004 draft.

and 2003 too

polamalubeast
02-22-2011, 03:00 PM
Kevin Colbert was hired by the Steelers on Febuary 15 2000, and has presided over every draft since. So here's the Steelers number one picks, with draft order in parenthesis, vs the number one overall pick in each year's respective draft. I'll let you be the judge over who fared best.

2000

NFL: Browns, Courtney Brown

Steelers: (8) Plaxico Burress

2001

NFL: Falcons, Micheal Vick

Steelers: (19) Casey Hampton

2002

NFL: Texans, David Carr

Steelers: (30) Kendall Simmons

2003

NFL: Bengals, Carson Palmer

Steelers: (16*) Troy Polamalu

2004

NFL: Giants, Eli Manning

Steelers: (11) Ben Roethlisberger

2005

NFL: 49'ers, Alex Smith

Steelers: (30) Heath Miller

2006

NFL: Texans, Mario Williams

Steelers: (25**) Santonio Holmes

2007

NFL: Raiders, Jamarcus Russell

Steelers: (15) Lawrence Timmons

2008

NFL: Dolphins, Jake Long

Steelers: (23) Rashard Mendenhall

2009

NFL:Lions, Matthew Stafford

Steelers: (32) Ziggy Hood

2010

NFL: Rams, Sam Bradford

Steelers: (18) Maukice Pouncey

* traded up from 27
** traded up from 32

Explains a lot huh? And for those that want to claim the Steelers are old or going away, I don't think so, not as long as we keep drafting like this.

But Timmons and mendenhall is the bust:ranger::sarcasm2::rolleyes::behindsofa:

zulater
02-22-2011, 04:43 PM
Colts haven't done too badly:

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/colts.html

Neither have the Patriots.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-22-2011, 06:46 PM
Find me another team that has got near the production out of the first round as the Steelers have out of the last 11 drafts? I don't care where they've been picking, no other teams got the number of blue chip players as the Steelers have from the draft, particuarly from the first round.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge Colbert is really good at what he does?

Dont have to look too far to see that Ozzie Newsome is one of the best.

2009-Michael Oher
2008-Joe Flacco
2007-Ben Grubbs
2006-Haloti Ngata
2005-Mark Clayton
2003-Terrel Suggs
2002-Ed Reed
2001-Todd Heap
2000-Jamaal Lewis
1999- Chris McAllister

I just dont think Colbert and his staff are in that league.

SMR
02-22-2011, 07:30 PM
Dont have to look too far to see that Ozzie Newsome is one of the best.

2009-Michael Oher
2008-Joe Flacco
2007-Ben Grubbs
2006-Haloti Ngata
2005-Mark Clayton
2003-Terrel Suggs
2002-Ed Reed
2001-Todd Heap
2000-Jamaal Lewis
1999- Chris McAllister

I just dont think Colbert and his staff are in that league.

What does it matter (even if it was true) since Colbert's boys has made THREE trips to the Super Bowl so far since 2006??? I'd take Colbert anytime, thank you.

Psycho Ward 86
02-22-2011, 07:55 PM
What does it matter (even if it was true) since Colbert's boys has made THREE trips to the Super Bowl so far since 2006??? I'd take Colbert anytime, thank you.

Alright...we get it...we've been to a lot of superbowls. It gets really annoying to bring that up everywhere, even as a steeler fan. I can only imagine how everyone else feels. Give Ozzie some kudos. He can pick up stars in the draft left and right at every position other than wide receiver. Personally, i think Ozzie's drafts usually have a little more quality in depth to them than Colbert's. Give the man his props.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-22-2011, 08:10 PM
What does it matter (even if it was true) since Colbert's boys has made THREE trips to the Super Bowl so far since 2006??? I'd take Colbert anytime, thank you.

I think if you asked the top 100 minds in NFL football who was a better GM....Ozzie Newsome or Kevin Colbert you would get 99 saying Newsome.

The fact that one team has more super bowl appearances than the other can simply point to better coaching, better execution, or hundreds of other things. Somebody asked me to find another GM that has had better 1st round picks and I would say its pretty clear that Newsome and the Ravens did better.

fansince'76
02-22-2011, 08:16 PM
I dunno - I'd say Newsome and Colbert are pretty close in quality 1st rounders. They're both among the best GMs, IMO.

zulater
02-22-2011, 08:33 PM
I think if you asked the top 100 minds in NFL football who was a better GM....Ozzie Newsome or Kevin Colbert you would get 99 saying Newsome.

The fact that one team has more super bowl appearances than the other can simply point to better coaching, better execution, or hundreds of other things. Somebody asked me to find another GM that has had better 1st round picks and I would say its pretty clear that Newsome and the Ravens did better.

Link?

Look I think Newsome's good too, but I don't think there's a clear consensus on who's better between he and Colbert. Both have hads their share of hits, along with some misses too.

X-Terminator
02-22-2011, 09:06 PM
Alright...we get it...we've been to a lot of superbowls. It gets really annoying to bring that up everywhere, even as a steeler fan. I can only imagine how everyone else feels. Give Ozzie some kudos. He can pick up stars in the draft left and right at every position other than wide receiver. Personally, i think Ozzie's drafts usually have a little more quality in depth to them than Colbert's. Give the man his props.

Newsome is a great GM, no question about it. But Colbert isn't exactly chopped liver - he has done a tremendous job as GM, and has an incredible knack of finding that low-profile "diamond in the rough" that other GMs, including Newsome, does not have. Look at the late-round and UDFA's that became quality players during Colbert's tenure. Hell, Newsome cut James Harrison before the Steelers picked him back up, and look at him now.

Psycho Ward 86
02-22-2011, 09:18 PM
Link?



Why are you looking for a link? He's just stating an opinion

SMR
02-22-2011, 09:24 PM
Newsome is a great GM, no question about it. But Colbert isn't exactly chopped liver - he has done a tremendous job as GM, and has an incredible knack of finding that low-profile "diamond in the rough" that other GMs, including Newsome, does not have. Look at the late-round and UDFA's that became quality players during Colbert's tenure. Hell, Newsome cut James Harrison before the Steelers picked him back up, and look at him now.

:applaudit:

zulater
02-23-2011, 05:57 AM
Why are you looking for a link? He's just stating an opinion

An opinion that claims that 99 out of 100 of the top minds in the NFL would choose Newsome over Colbert is unsupportable without a link. If you're going to make outlandish statements to support your "opinion" you better bring something to the table to verify it.

:coffee:

Now here's my opinion that is supported with facts. Kevin Colbert had a great hand in building a roster that's been good enough to get the Steelers to 3 of the last 5 Super Bowls. Outside of Hines Ward and Aaron Smith the rest of the roster has been assmebled during Colbert's tenure.

LLT
02-23-2011, 06:36 AM
Neither have the Patriots.

Yikes...The Patriots are one of the worst drafting teams in the league. They retain just barely over 50% of their draft picks and have to steal from other teams cupboards because of their inability to judge talent.

LLT
02-23-2011, 06:40 AM
The fact that one team has more super bowl appearances than the other can simply point to better coaching, better execution, or hundreds of other things. .

Bingo...The Patriots are terrible at drafting with half of their picks no longer even in the NFL and the Texans have been able to retain 85% of their drafted players over the last 5 years.

There are other factors that go into the equation.

The Steelers are third to last in retaining draft picks...but blow the other teams out of the water with their ability to find UDFA's.

zulater
02-23-2011, 11:03 AM
Yikes...The Patriots are one of the worst drafting teams in the league. They retain just barely over 50% of their draft picks and have to steal from other teams cupboards because of their inability to judge talent.

I was talking strictly about their first round picks. Those have been above the line imo.

zulater
02-23-2011, 11:09 AM
Bingo...The Patriots are terrible at drafting with half of their picks no longer even in the NFL and the Texans have been able to retain 85% of their drafted players over the last 5 years.

There are other factors that go into the equation.

The Steelers are third to last in retaining draft picks...but blow the other teams out of the water with their ability to find UDFA's.

Retaining picks is overrated. Quality trumps quanity any day. And what the Steelers have done better than any team imo is finding the high yield players in the draft. One Ben Roethlisberger, Maukice Pouncey, or Troy Polamalu has more value than 3 decent selections. One Heath Miller, Lammar Woodley, Mike Wallace type selection has equal or greater value than retaining two average type players.

fansince'76
02-23-2011, 11:09 AM
Bingo...The Patriots are terrible at drafting with half of their picks no longer even in the NFL and the Texans have been able to retain 85% of their drafted players over the last 5 years.

There are other factors that go into the equation.

The Steelers are third to last in retaining draft picks...but blow the other teams out of the water with their ability to find UDFA's.

IMO, draft pick retention has more to do with the overall quality of the existing roster and the resultant inability of lower round draft picks to crack the roster than an inability to spot and draft talent, at least when it comes to teams that are perennial contenders. Sometimes you just can't keep players who would otherwise be worth keeping due to roster size limitations.

LLT
02-23-2011, 01:57 PM
IMO, draft pick retention has more to do with the overall quality of the existing roster and the resultant inability of lower round draft picks to crack the roster than an inability to spot and draft talent, at least when it comes to teams that are perennial contenders. Sometimes you just can't keep players who would otherwise be worth keeping due to roster size limitations.


Retaining picks is overrated. Quality trumps quanity any day.


Totally agree...but if you are drafting correctly there should be the natural course of retaining young talent and being able to let older talent leave before they demand their last big contract.

Otherwise...you have to overpay in free agency like the Pats did. They are the perfect example of not only failing in the lower rounds but in the first couple of rounds also. When you are cutting 2-5 round picks...you are not drafting well.

SMR
02-23-2011, 04:01 PM
An opinion that claims that 99 out of 100 of the top minds in the NFL would choose Newsome over Colbert is unsupportable without a link. If you're going to make outlandish statements to support your "opinion" you better bring something to the table to verify it.

:coffee:

Now here's my opinion that is supported with facts. Kevin Colbert had a great hand in building a roster that's been good enough to get the Steelers to 3 of the last 5 Super Bowls. Outside of Hines Ward and Aaron Smith the rest of the roster has been assmebled during Colbert's tenure.

Great post!!

zulater
02-23-2011, 05:06 PM
Colts haven't done too badly:

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/colts.html

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2010/10/12/1746984/is-colts-2010-first-round-pick-jerry-hughes-a-bust-already

:wink02:

zulater
02-23-2011, 05:49 PM
I dunno - I'd say Newsome and Colbert are pretty close in quality 1st rounders. They're both among the best GMs, IMO.

In quality first rounders they are close, perhaps the Ravens even deserve a slight edge, but Newsome has a couple busts as well in his dossier. Colbert has no Kyle Boller or Travis Taylor's to his credit. Mark Clayton was a pretty mediocre first rounder as well. The Ravens didn't have a first rounder in 2010, but their second round pick of Sergio Kindle was somewhat suspect given his injury history too.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-23-2011, 05:57 PM
I'll let you be the judge over who fared best.

.

I am confused .... was this statement not an open invitation for discussion of opinion?? I guess we cant have an opinion.

Kind of reminds me of the acts of a certain guru who shall remain nameless. :nw:

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-23-2011, 06:13 PM
The Ravens didn't have a first rounder in 2010, but their second round pick of Sergio Kindle was somewhat suspect given his injury history too.

Woah....2nd rounder. Please say we are not opening this unilateral discussion to 2nd round picks. I mean now we have to talk about Limas Sweed, Ricardo Colclough, Alonzo Jackson, (does trading down in the 2nd to get Willie Reid and Anthony Smith in the 3rd count?).

Sorry, I have no link to support my disallowed opinion. :nw:

zulater
02-23-2011, 06:31 PM
I am confused .... was this statement not an open invitation for discussion of opinion?? I guess we cant have an opinion.

Kind of reminds me of the acts of a certain guru who shall remain nameless. :nw:

Of course you're allowed to state an opinion, but when you claim 99 out of 100 NFL insiders have the same opinion you better be prepared to back it up. So far you haven't.


You see you're not only stating your opinion, you're also in effect stating theirs.

zulater
02-23-2011, 06:38 PM
Woah....2nd rounder. Please say we are not opening this unilateral discussion to 2nd round picks. I mean now we have to talk about Limas Sweed, Ricardo Colclough, Alonzo Jackson, (does trading down in the 2nd to get Willie Reid and Anthony Smith in the 3rd count?).

Sorry, I have no link to support my disallowed opinion. :nw:

LaMarr Woodley, Marvel Smith, Randle El, and Kendrell Bell were good second round picks. MikeWallace, Emanuel Sanders, Max Starks, and Chris Hope were pretty good 3rd rounders. Brett Keisel, Ike Taylor, Larry Foote, Willie Colon, and Antonio Brown were all good later round picks. Just off the top of my head. :chuckle:

zulater
02-23-2011, 06:47 PM
Dont have to look too far to see that Ozzie Newsome is one of the best.

2009-Michael Oher
2008-Joe Flacco
2007-Ben Grubbs
2006-Haloti Ngata
2005-Mark Clayton
2003-Terrel Suggs
2002-Ed Reed
2001-Todd Heap
2000-Jamaal Lewis
1999- Chris McAllister

I just dont think Colbert and his staff are in that league.

2010 Maurkice Pouncey
2009 Ziggy Hood
2008 Rashard Mendenhall
2007 Lawrence Timmons
2006 Santoinio Holmes
2005 Heath Miller
2004 Ben Roethlisberger
2003 Troy Polamalu
2002 Kendell Simmons
2001 Casey Hampton
2000 Plaxico Burress

Are you claiming the Steelers 1st round choices aren't in the same league as the Ravens 1st round selections of the same time period?

Sorry, not seeing it.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-23-2011, 07:17 PM
2010 Maurkice Pouncey
2009 Ziggy Hood
2008 Rashard Mendenhall
2007 Lawrence Timmons
2006 Santoinio Holmes
2005 Heath Miller
2004 Ben Roethlisberger
2003 Troy Polamalu
2002 Kendell Simmons
2001 Casey Hampton
2000 Plaxico Burress

Are you claiming the Steelers 1st round choices aren't in the same league as the Ravens 1st round selections of the same time period?

Sorry, not seeing it.

No, but I think if I look at the positional basis, it looks like the Ravens have a better record of 1st rounders. If that is what you were comparing. Since the Ravens didnt have a 1st rounder this year I didnt list the player, but if we include Pouncey we get something like this.

Pouncey and Kendall Simmons vs. Michael Oher and Ben Grubbs--Advantage Ravens
Ben vs Flacco- Steelers
Casey Hampton or Haloti Ngata (I like Hamp, but think Ngata is the more impact player)
Timmons vs. Suggs Suggs is the better player
Troy vs. Reed both are great
Lewis or Mendenhall- I think Lewis, but Mendenhall is not done yet
Heap or Miller- I think Heap in his prime was the better TE, but Heath is a blocker.
Burress and Holmes vs Clayton- Definately Steelers
Chris Mc Allister and Ziggy Hood are the last 2 left I think............McAllister was a shut down corner in his prime.

While both sides have a lot of talent, I think the Ravens have the better of that bunch. But sorry, I dont have a link to it, so therefore it does not validate my opinion. :nw:

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-23-2011, 07:22 PM
Of course you're allowed to state an opinion, but when you claim 99 out of 100 NFL insiders have the same opinion you better be prepared to back it up. So far you haven't.


You see you're not only stating your opinion, you're also in effect stating theirs.

I believe the part in my post where I said "I think..." part of my post indicates it was an opinion. remedial english perhaps.

zulater
02-23-2011, 07:45 PM
I believe the part in my post where I said "I think..." part of my post indicates it was an opinion. remedial english perhaps.

Anytime you state an opinion in the form of such and such percentage believes so and so is right, particuarly when it's so slanted ( as in 99 out of 100) then I think you probably should give some kind of link for validation otherwise it comes across as nothing more than grandstanding.

zulater
02-23-2011, 07:50 PM
By the way Ozzie's got his share of 2nd and 3rd round misses too.

Adam Terry, Chris Redman, Casey Rabach, Dave Zastudil, Devard Darling, David Pitman, Yamon Figurs, Adam Terry, Dan Cody, Dwan Edwards all 2nd and 3rd selections of the Ravens, all busts. And 2008 and 2009 second round picks Taverus Gooden, and Paul Krueger have the early stench of bust of them too, but I suppose it's premature to close the book on them this early.

zulater
02-23-2011, 08:15 PM
2009-Michael Oher
2008-Joe Flacco
2007-Ben Grubbs
2006-Haloti Ngata
2005-Mark Clayton
2003-Terrel Suggs
2003 Kyle Boller
2002-Ed Reed
2001-Todd Heap
2000-Jamaal Lewis
2000-Travis Taylor
1999- Chris McAlister

2010 Maurkice Pouncey
2009 Ziggy Hood
2008 Rashard Mendenhall
2007 Lawrence Timmons
2006 Santoinio Holmes
2005 Heath Miller
2004 Ben Roethlisberger
2003 Troy Polamalu
2002 Kendell Simmons
2001 Casey Hampton
2000 Plaxico Burress

Let's rank them 1-23. Here's my order

1. Ben Roethlisberger, his record as a starter against the Ravens speaks for itself.
2. tie Ed Reed
2. tie Troy Polamalu, sorry I wont concede this one.
4. Terrell Suggs
5. Haloti Ngata
6. Jamal Lewis, 3 great years, but then he burned out, hard to figure out where he belongs?
7. Plaxico Burress
8. Todd Heap
9. Casey Hampton
10.. Heath Miller, in two years Miller will surpass Heap, but for now Heap gets the nod, barely.
11. Santonio Holmes
12. Maukice Pouncey, pereniall All Pro in the making. In five years could easily be top 5 on this list.
13. Joe Flacco
14. Rashard Mendenhall
15. Lawrence Timmons
16. Micheal Oher
17. Chris McAlister
18. Ziggy Hood
19. Ben Grubbs
20.. Marc Clayton
21. Kendall Simmons
22. Travis Taylor
23.. Kyle Boller


I don't know, they both had some great hits, but only Ozzie had spectacular first round flops. Advantage Colbert :thumbsup:

btw shame on you Gonzo for leaving Boller and Travis Taylor off your list.:hmm:

SMR
02-23-2011, 08:40 PM
Anytime you state an opinion in the form of such and such percentage believes so and so is right, particuarly when it's so slanted ( as in 99 out of 100) then I think you probably should give some kind of link for validation otherwise it comes across as nothing more than grandstanding.

I have to agree with you on that. The"I think" part is surely an opinion, but including the "99 out of 100" is a bit of a stretch....IMO.

:grin:

The Duke
02-23-2011, 08:46 PM
Ozzie's done great, but boller and clayton pretty much eliminate him in comparison to Colbert imo. And oher struggled in his first year at LT. There's talk of him going back to RT already

zulater
02-23-2011, 08:47 PM
I have to agree with you on that. The"I think" part is surely an opinion, but including the "99 out of 100" is a bit of a stretch....IMO.

:grin:

Yeah, I think Gonzo needs to join me in that remedial English class he suggested I take and figure out how to word that better. :chuckle:

zulater
02-23-2011, 08:49 PM
Ozzie's done great, but boller and clayton pretty much eliminate him imo. And oher struggled in his first year at LT. There's talk of him going back to RT already

Colbert's only bad first round choice was Kendall Simmons, and if he doesn't tear his knee up in his second season I'm not so sure he wouldn't have worked out pretty good too.

SMR
02-23-2011, 08:50 PM
Yeah, I think Gonzo needs to join me in that remedial English class he suggested I take and figure out how to word that better. :chuckle:

lol

zulater
02-23-2011, 09:34 PM
Ozzie's done great, but boller and clayton pretty much eliminate him in comparison to Colbert imo. And oher struggled in his first year at LT. There's talk of him going back to RT already

:doh: I don't know what I was looking at before, but add Travis Taylor to Ozzie's list of first round busts! He was one of two first round choices they had in 2000, and notice Gonzo left Boller off his list too.

I guess 99 out of 100 NFL "in the know" guys would probably want to forget those picks too!

:chuckle:

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-24-2011, 12:13 AM
I think Kevin Colbert is my hero and the greatest Director of Football Operations that ever lived. Sorry, no link and just my opinion.

I cant believe that Steeler fans accuse the media of knob slobbering all over Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, but then write stuff like this. :doh:

zulater
02-24-2011, 05:46 AM
I think Kevin Colbert is my hero and the greatest Director of Football Operations that ever lived. Sorry, no link and just my opinion.

I cant believe that Steeler fans accuse the media of knob slobbering all over Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, but then write stuff like this. :doh:

Oh quit being a drama queen. You had a decent point, Ozzie Newsome is indeed right there with Colbert, maybe even better? But instead of making your argument in a sensible manner, debating the facts, you went way over the top, and basically tried to put a shut down spin on the argument by suggesting a ridiculous consensus of NFL insiders being in agreement with you, when in fact there's nothing to suggest that it's an opinion that you just didn't grab from out of thin air.

Let me know when you want to quit playing the part of the martyr and debate the actual facts of what Collbert and Newsome have actually accomplished comparitively speaking, it might make for a decent debate.

HometownGal
02-24-2011, 06:55 AM
Guys - c'mon. Tisk tisk. Gonz had an OPINION and maybe it should have been stated without the "percentage factor", but nonethless, it is an opinion and he is entitled to it. If you don't agree with it - fine. Just please disagree respectfully without tossing the barbs. Both of you know your stuff and I'm enjoying the debate very much but without all of the darts. Thanks. :drink:

Carry on!

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-24-2011, 07:17 AM
Oh quit being a drama queen. You had a decent point, Ozzie Newsome is indeed right there with Colbert, maybe even better? But instead of making your argument in a sensible manner, debating the facts, you went way over the top, and basically tried to put a shut down spin on the argument by suggesting a ridiculous consensus of NFL insiders being in agreement with you, when in fact there's nothing to suggest that it's an opinion that you just didn't grab from out of thin air.

Let me know when you want to quit playing the part of the martyr and debate the actual facts of what Collbert and Newsome have actually accomplished comparitively speaking, it might make for a decent debate.

I'll quit playing drama queen when you quit lashing out at anybody that has a valid opinion that differs from yours. You asked this ......Find me another team that has got near the production out of the first round as the Steelers have out of the last 11 drafts? I don't care where they've been picking, no other teams got the number of blue chip players as the Steelers have from the draft, particuarly from the first round.

I pointed out the Ravens had what looks as good or maybe better of a track record and then you went on the offensive to attack my position by nitpicking about my opinion. I've been a fan for over 30 years and like to think I am objective as a football fan, not somebody that thinks the Steelers are the best at everything. I'm not here to argue with fellow Steeler fans, but have discussions with fellow Steeler fans...but I'm not gonna take lightly to being told I need to post links to opinions.

I think Colbert is a good GM, but also believe that as director of football operations he might have more to do than just a GM. I think there are better out there, but think the guy does a great job with what he has to work with.

zulater
02-24-2011, 11:54 AM
Dont have to look too far to see that Ozzie Newsome is one of the best.

2009-Michael Oher
2008-Joe Flacco
2007-Ben Grubbs
2006-Haloti Ngata
2005-Mark Clayton
2003-Terrel Suggs
2002-Ed Reed
2001-Todd Heap
2000-Jamaal Lewis
1999- Chris McAllister

I just dont think Colbert and his staff are in that league. Here's where the road divided on us Gonzo. Call it symantics if you like, or perhaps you think I'm splitting hairs, but the suggestion that Colbert and his staff aren't in the same league as Newsome I find to be ridiculous. So what league are they in then?

Plus you didn't paint the entire picture of Newsome's first round track record when you ommited Boller and Travis Taylor from the equation.

I'm all for good debate, but when you claim we're not even operating in the same league to start with, I'm sorry but I've got to go on the offensive. And in this case I don't think that makes me a myopic homer, because I think the facts support the claim that Colbert and co. are indeed right there with any NFL front office.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-24-2011, 12:59 PM
Here's where the road divided on us Gonzo. Call it symantics if you like, or perhaps you think I'm splitting hairs, but the suggestion that Colbert and his staff aren't in the same league as Newsome I find to be ridiculous. So what league are they in then?

Plus you didn't paint the entire picture of Newsome's first round track record when you ommited Boller and Travis Taylor from the equation.

I'm all for good debate, but when you claim we're not even operating in the same league to start with, I'm sorry but I've got to go on the offensive. And in this case I don't think that makes me a myopic homer, because I think the facts support the claim that Colbert and co. are indeed right there with any NFL front office.

I think you went on the offensive when I first posted a reply of why the comparison between the #1 pick only. I'll let some of the draftniks on the page elaborate on the difference between being picking at the #1 overall pick and the bottom third of the round. They might have opinions on picks for "upside" vs. "a good football player" at those respective spots. Maybe LLT or Tex can explain why teams spend $40 million on a guy with potential, rather than the safe pick.

My omission of Boller and Taylor was just a mistake as I forgot to notice the 2 picks in the 1st round those years. My error. I do think highly of Colbert, but still think judging Steeler picks vs the #1 pick is flawed.

I'm not here to "go on the offensive", but rather feel compelled to defend myself when somebody goes on the offensive against me and this is where this thread went. Sorry to the mods if this got off the rails.

Gonz, out.

The WH
02-24-2011, 03:11 PM
I think the reason this discussion has gone so ozzie far is that ozzie you guys like to type ozzie the name ozzie.



.....

.....


ozzie.

SMR
02-24-2011, 04:27 PM
I think the reason this discussion has gone so ozzie far is that ozzie you guys like to type ozzie the name ozzie.



.....

.....


ozzie.

ROFL....thanks for restoring a bit o' humor to this thread.

zulater
02-26-2011, 08:45 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth

Walker's Fab 40

1. Troy Polamalu, S, Steelers

2. Ben Roethlisberger, QB, Steelers

3. Ed Reed, S, Ravens

4. Haloti Ngata, DL, Ravens

5. James Harrison, LB, Steelers

6. Terrell Suggs, LB/DE, Ravens

7. LaMarr Woodley, LB, Steelers

8. Joe Thomas, OT, Browns

9. Ray Rice, RB, Ravens

10. Mike Wallace, WR, Steelers

11. Ray Lewis, LB, Ravens

12. Rashard Mendenhall, RB, Steelers

13. Peyton Hillis, RB, Browns

14. Joe Flacco, QB, Ravens

15. Maurkice Pouncey, C, Steelers

16. Lawrence Timmons, LB, Steelers

17. Anquan Boldin, WR, Ravens

18. Carson Palmer, QB, Bengals

19. Johnathan Joseph, CB, Bengals

20. Ike Taylor, CB, Steelers

21. Heath Miller, TE, Steelers

22. Hines Ward, WR, Steelers

23. Cedric Benson, RB, Bengals

24. Brett Kiesel, DE, Steelers

25. Eric Steinbach, G, Browns

26. Michael Oher, OT, Ravens

27. Chad Ochocinco, WR, Bengals

28. Casey Hampton, DT, Steelers

29. Terrell Owens, WR, Bengals

30. Alex Mack, C, Browns

31. Leon Hall, CB, Bengals

32. Josh Cribbs, WR, Browns

33. Joe Haden, CB, Browns

34. James Farrior, LB, Steelers

35. Derrick Mason, WR, Ravens

36. Andrew Whitworth, OT, Bengals

37. Aaron Smith, DE, Steelers

38. Ziggy Hood, DE, Steelers

39. T.J. Ward, S, Browns

40. Billy Cundiff, K, Ravens

Walker's Fab 40 by team

Steelers: 16 (highest Polamalu No. 1)
Ravens: 10 (highest Reed No. 3)
Browns: 7 (highest Thomas No. 8 )
Bengals: 7 (highest Palmer No. 18)

Walker's

Looks like a lot of Colbert draftee's on that list to me.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-27-2011, 11:12 AM
:rofl:

So your assertion that nobody in the NFL got near the production out of the first round of the draft like Colbert is somehow justified by a list of an ESPN blogger. Nice.

Then you show 16 Steelers and 10 Ravens on that list, but guys like James Harrison, James Farrior, Anquan Boldin, Derrick Mason, etc that were not drafted by the current team they play for. WHY??

If its that important to you to, that you need to make up stats based upon a bloggers opinion to prove your point...so be it. :nw:

I am willing to say that I believe Kevin Colbert to be in the top 5-7 GM's in the league...but I doubt that you are willing to say that Ozzie Newsome might have had the same if not better use of his first picks in the draft than Colbert in the past 10 years.

Either way, I am done with this thread. Its pointless and gone on too long.

zulater
02-27-2011, 12:47 PM
:rofl:

So your assertion that nobody in the NFL got near the production out of the first round of the draft like Colbert is somehow justified by a list of an ESPN blogger. Nice.

Then you show 16 Steelers and 10 Ravens on that list, but guys like James Harrison, James Farrior, Anquan Boldin, Derrick Mason, etc that were not drafted by the current team they play for. WHY??

If its that important to you to, that you need to make up stats based upon a bloggers opinion to prove your point...so be it. :nw:

I am willing to say that I believe Kevin Colbert to be in the top 5-7 GM's in the league...but I doubt that you are willing to say that Ozzie Newsome might have had the same if not better use of his first picks in the draft than Colbert in the past 10 years.
Either way, I am done with this thread. Its pointless and gone on too long.

First I italicized Colbert's picks; I didn't go the path of lies by ommision.

And no I wont say that Newsome made better use of his first round choices than Colbert, because it's simply untrue. I'm including all their respective first round picks, hit's and misses both. Colbert's had all of one miss in eleven tries, period. ( Simmons) Newsome has missed hugely on one pick ( Boller) and got little value out of two others. ( Travis Taylor, and Marc Clayton.) It would be akin to dismissing interceptions from the equation of a qb's passer effeciency rating to ignore those fist round misses when assessing their overall performance.

So when you consider their value picks are as close as they are, how can anyone applying an ounce of logic to the situation claim that Newsome's outperformed Colbert in the first round in lieu of 3 misses vs 1?

Btw I'd run away from the argument too if I was wrong.

:coffee: