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Vincent
06-13-2010, 02:34 PM
Without comment....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4

MasterOfPuppets
06-13-2010, 02:45 PM
http://bbs.mediumpimpin.com/images/smilies/Bravo.gif

here's the problem. the elected dirtbags have already shown time and time again they DON'T CARE ABOUT PUBLIC OPINION... sure you can vote em out... only to be replaced by more of the same.

ALLD
06-13-2010, 04:32 PM
I agree with everything the man said. You can also push Americans so far, but when they go too far all hell breaks loose.

If we had an alternative to importing most of our oil and gasoline we would not be having this conversation. Real leadership is needed to find alternative energy and domestic production as a matter of national security.

Vincent
06-13-2010, 06:17 PM
I agree with everything the man said. You can also push Americans so far, but when they go too far all hell breaks loose.

If we had an alternative to importing most of our oil and gasoline we would not be having this conversation. Real leadership is needed to find alternative energy and domestic production as a matter of national security.

We import oil because it's cheaper. There is no end of oil in the US but it is relatively expensive because it's more difficult to get to. "Our dependence on foreign oil" is bull@#$%.

One could even speculate that the dirty rotten corporations keep us believing "our dependence on foreign oil". I wouldn't though. That's why we have Ric.

The Patriot
06-13-2010, 11:04 PM
While we're disregarding freedom of religion, can we get rid of Calvinists too?

Shea
06-14-2010, 12:17 AM
Looks like so many here are grouping all Muslims into one category as psycho extremists and therefore they must all be murderous nut jobs, just like those terrorists that blew up the towers.

Muslim population in our country is vast, and I think we should all take into account that the fuckers of 9/11 aren't anywhere affiliated to them, and recognize that the vast Muslim community here was as sickened as we were ourselves that day.

Of course there is always the exception, as there is in anything in life, but let's please keep in mind that it's way beyond the majority of their population.

Call me crazy, but I think a mosque - which would be further than you might think from ground zero - would be something to show how much more educated we are, and a confirmation of what our country is all about and founded upon - differences in culture.

BTW, I have a cousin that could be the spitting image of Timothy McVeigh. :nervous:

Get what I'm saying here??

I say build it, and let's start to hopefully be able to heal because of it.

Let's go for peace and understanding.

Mattsme
06-14-2010, 12:35 AM
BTW, I have a cousin that could be the spitting image of Timothy McVeigh. :nervous:

Get what I'm saying here??

I have a cousin that died at the Pentagon that day.
And, I was on my way to the Murrah building the morning that McVeigh blew it up. We were half an hour late. We finally pulled over to a gas station because we were getting passed by police, state troopers, fire trucks and ambulances one after the other. That's when we found out.

So yeah, I get what you're saying here. However,


I say build it, and let's start to hopefully be able to heal because of it.

I say kill them.

Sorry if that's not the popular sentiment.

Vincent
06-14-2010, 08:30 AM
I say kill them.

Sorry if that's not the popular sentiment.

No apology is necessary. They would gleefully kill us.

venom
06-14-2010, 10:28 AM
If Obama is all for it , its sure to never get built
http://roguejew.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/obama-fail1.jpg

7SteelGal43
06-14-2010, 11:07 AM
While we're disregarding freedom of religion, can we get rid of Calvinists too?

Patriot* , are you saying you'd have no problem with a mosque at ground zero in NYC ?

7SteelGal43
06-14-2010, 11:10 AM
Looks like so many here are grouping all Muslims into one category as psycho extremists and therefore they must all be murderous nut jobs, just like those terrorists that blew up the towers.

I think most people here know the difference between Muslims and extremist terrorist jihadist murdurous dirtbag Muslims. However, no matter how ya slice it, building a Mosque and ground zero is an asshat move. I pray it never gets built.

The Patriot
06-14-2010, 09:37 PM
Patriot* , are you saying you'd have no problem with a mosque at ground zero in NYC ?

Yep.

Not all Muslims are extremists.

NJarhead
06-14-2010, 09:44 PM
Yep.

Not all Muslims are extremists.

I'm with Patsy on this one. Being from the area I've read the countless stories in the paper and I read why they wanted to do it. The Muslims who want this are trying to extend an olive branch. And as The Patriot said, not all Muslims are extremists; in fact a very small percentage of them are. Some Muslims were murdered on 9-11 by terrorists as well.

I think it's too easy to blame Muslims and point fingers and protest this one; and I think it's all for the wrong reasons. Muslims are fighting the Taliban right along side our Soldiers and Marines in Afghanistan.

Shea
06-14-2010, 10:47 PM
I think most people here know the difference between Muslims and extremist terrorist jihadist murdurous dirtbag Muslims. However, no matter how ya slice it, building a Mosque and ground zero is an asshat move. I pray it never gets built.

From my understanding, the Mosque would be blocks away from the site that the Towers were built upon and then sadly destroyed.

That's sacred ground and I don't know what will become of it, or what will be built there, but I do know it won't be a Mosque


I'm with Patsy on this one. Being from the area I've read the countless stories in the paper and I read why they wanted to do it. The Muslims who want this are trying to extend an olive branch. And as The Patriot said, not all Muslims are extremists; in fact a very small percentage of them are. Some Muslims were murdered on 9-11 by terrorists as well.

I think it's too easy to blame Muslims and point fingers and protest this one; and I think it's all for the wrong reasons. Muslims are fighting the Taliban right along side our Soldiers and Marines in Afghanistan.

And this is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread, but Warden did a much better job of it than I.

Vincent
06-14-2010, 11:10 PM
With all due respect to Patriot and WarDen, and I do respect you guys, I disagree.

Of course "the project" is being sold as an "olive branch". There is no other acceptable way to package it. Otherwise it's just an affront, a slap in the face. No, spitting in our eye.

mosques are a symbol of the religion of submission, and that is in fact what the word "islam" means - submission. It doesn't matter a hill of @#$% what the mosque means to rank & file muslims. What matters is what the mosque means to islam, and more importantly to us - they took down two of the central pillars of our society and culture, the World Trade Centers, with OUR own planes. Then they're building a @#$%ing mosque in close proximity to the atrocity. All symbolic. All "in your face".

As Patriot correctly points out, not all muslims are extremists. Indeed most experts put the extreme element at no more than 10% of islam. But there are 1.3 billion muslims. 10% of that figure is nearly half our total population. It's nearly all of Russia's population. Its twice the UK's population. The extreme element is beyond "significant". It has had us occupied in two theaters for nearly a decade, with no end in sight. That extreme element in those theaters is financed by mosques in every country from the hard earned money of rank & file muslims and the contributions the symbols of submission draw from the communities..

islam plays us like a violin because of our better nature, our tolerance, and our liberalism. If we don't snap out of it and realize what we're up against, our better nature is what will cost us our freedom to the religion of submission.

This is all about symbolism here. Building that mosque anywhere on the island of Manhattan is symbolic. It's symbolic in the same way as if we had had leadership that would have incinerated mecca and medina on 9/12/2001 to say "We heard you. Now hear us muslim bastards".

We're in a zero sum game. Its for all the marbles. They declared war on us. It is a war of the entirety of islam against us. You'll see the outcome in your lifetime.

Let the bastards build their symbol. Hopefully some Americans will return the gesture.

Devilsdancefloor
06-14-2010, 11:20 PM
i personally feel like NO religious buildings should be built at ground zero.

MasterOfPuppets
06-15-2010, 02:21 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg3m3t87-dk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU

MasterOfPuppets
06-15-2010, 02:31 AM
i'll give it another 10 - 20 years, and this is what we'll be seeing in every country...


Nigerian Christians Riot, Kill Muslims in Retaliation
James Joyner | Tuesday, February 21, 2006

Nigerian Christians have gone on an anti-Muslim killing spree, apparently in retaliation for earlier murderous riots by Muslims angered over cartoons.

Christian mobs rampaged through a southern Nigerian city Tuesday, burning mosques and killing several people in an outbreak of anti-Muslim violence that followed deadly protests against caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad over the weekend.

Residents and witnesses in the southern, predominantly Christian city of Onitsha said several Muslims with origins in the north were beaten to death by mobs which also burned two mosques there. “The mosque at the main market has been burnt and I’ve counted at least six dead bodies on the streets,” Izzy Uzor, an Onitsha resident and businessman, told The Associated Press by telephone. “The whole town is in a frenzy and people are running in all directions.”

The violence appeared to be in reprisal for anti-Christian violence Saturday in the mostly Muslim northern city of Maiduguri in which thousands of Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches, killing at least 18 people.

Lovely. Not particularly surprising, I suppose, but nonetheless tragic.

MasterOfPuppets
06-15-2010, 02:40 AM
guess none of the ...."good muslims" ... thought to bring this guy to the attention of the authorities while he was preaching hate here in the good ole USA mosque's ...


U.S. cleric urges Muslims to kill U.S. soldiers

(Reuters) - A U.S.-born militant cleric has urged Muslims to kill U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and vowed to step up attacks against the U.S. military, according to a videotape released on Sunday.


(Reuters) - A U.S.-born militant cleric has urged Muslims to kill U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and vowed to step up attacks against the U.S. military, according to a videotape released on Sunday.

Anwar al-Awlaki, wanted dead or alive by U.S. authorities, is a leading figure linked to al Qaeda's Yemen-based wing. He is believed to be on the run in the impoverished Gulf Arab state.

"Muslims should object to what's going on either verbally or by physical action," Awlaki said in the 45-minute interview posted on an Islamist website. Reuters could not immediately verify the authenticity of the recording.

Awlaki praised the actions of U.S. Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan who shot dead 13 people at Fort Hood, a Texas army base, in November.

"Nidal was my student ... I'm proud of Nidal Hasan and this was a heroic act," he said, adding: "Who can object to what he did? He killed soldiers on their way to Iraq and Afghanistan."

Hasan had sent emails to the cleric but they were intercepted by U.S. intelligence agencies and examined by U.S. joint terrorism task forces.

"If the situation remains we will see new Nidal Hasans appearing," Awlaki said in the tape. "These American soldiers on their way to Afghanistan and Iraq, we will kill them."

Asked by an interviewer if killing U.S. soldiers would have a negative impact on Muslims in the United States, Awlaki said defending Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan was a larger priority.

"Is protecting the reputation of Muslims in America more important than bombs dropping on millions of Muslims elsewhere?"

U.S. officials said in April that President Barack Obama's administration had authorized operations to capture or kill Awlaki. Yemen has said it will not hand over Awlaki, whose family is well-known in Yemen, but instead put him on trial if he is arrested.

Born in New Mexico, Awlaki led prayers at U.S. mosques. He returned to Yemen in 2004 where he taught at a university before he was arrested and imprisoned in 2006 for suspected links to al Qaeda and involvement in attacks. He was released in late 2007.

Western countries fear that al Qaeda's resurgent regional wing is exploiting instability in Yemen, which borders oil giant Saudi Arabia, to launch attacks in the region and beyond.

(Reporting by Amena Bakr; Editing by Maria Golovnina)
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64M0OR20100523

SCSTILLER
06-15-2010, 06:26 AM
guess none of the ...."good muslims" ... thought to bring this guy to the attention of the authorities while he was preaching hate here in the good ole USA mosque's ...

MOP, I wonder what the percentage is of U.S. mosques that have ties to terrorism. I did a quick search and found reports saying anywhere from 50% all the way up to 80% (quick google glances).

Also, I wonder if the parents of that three year old future jihadist have a bumper sticker on the back of their car that states "My child is student of the month at suicide bomber school"

Hammer67
06-15-2010, 06:26 AM
Yep.

Not all Muslims are extremists.


I'm with Patsy on this one. Being from the area I've read the countless stories in the paper and I read why they wanted to do it. The Muslims who want this are trying to extend an olive branch. And as The Patriot said, not all Muslims are extremists; in fact a very small percentage of them are. Some Muslims were murdered on 9-11 by terrorists as well.

I think it's too easy to blame Muslims and point fingers and protest this one; and I think it's all for the wrong reasons. Muslims are fighting the Taliban right along side our Soldiers and Marines in Afghanistan.

While I agree that not all Muslims are militant, you have to wonder where all the religious community leaders that should be on the news condemning the violence? It rarely exists. I work with a gentleman who is expatriated from Kuwait. In his words, when asked why there was so much violence in the Muslim world, "They are stupid people who let their religion consume their brains so they don't think." In fact, his entire family disowned him when he moved to Canada because he was becoming "westernized."

I think building a mosque on that site is, at best, in bad taste and, at worst, a complete intentional slap to the politically correct West.

The Patriot
06-15-2010, 11:42 PM
While I agree that not all Muslims are militant, you have to wonder where all the religious community leaders that should be on the news condemning the violence? It rarely exists. I work with a gentleman who is expatriated from Kuwait. In his words, when asked why there was so much violence in the Muslim world, "They are stupid people who let their religion consume their brains so they don't think." In fact, his entire family disowned him when he moved to Canada because he was becoming "westernized."

I think building a mosque on that site is, at best, in bad taste and, at worst, a complete intentional slap to the politically correct West.

This is my biggest problem with peaceful Islam at the moment. It would only take a Gandhi like figure in the Muslim world to bring some of this violence under control.

And btw, the Mosque is being built several blocks from ground zero. These websites make it sound like it's being built on the actual site. Remember, before all these terrorist groups emerged in the 1970s, Americans used to vacation in Baghdad just to look at the beautiful Mosques. The ancient culture isn't our enemy, it's this modern extremism which we must destroy.

Vincent
06-16-2010, 10:06 AM
With all due respect to Patriot and WarDen, and I do respect you guys, I disagree.

I had lapsed in a moment of insensitivity and neglected to express my respect and disagreement with Shea as well. Please forgive me Shea, and accept my hostility to all things islamic.

ricardisimo
06-16-2010, 01:35 PM
i personally feel like NO religious buildings should be built at ground zero.

+1

Vincent
06-16-2010, 05:13 PM
-1

NJarhead
06-16-2010, 05:20 PM
i personally feel like NO religious buildings should be built at ground zero.

There are those that would differ.
173


Although, I'm sure they oppose the mosque as well.

Let me be clear about one thing with regards to my stance: I understand that it's not the popular view, and I also find myself feeling strange about supporting it. I just do and for the reasons I stated.

That said, should they be found to have abused this privilege awarded them rather than continue to mend and plant the seed to future relations with the rest of us, then by all means: evict them in the most hostile way allowed.

My feeling is that if they can succeed in what they say they want to do, we will all be the better for it.

I don't hate Muslims; I hate terrorists and or anyone wishing to negatively impact the American way of life.

Vincent
06-16-2010, 05:24 PM
This is my biggest problem with peaceful Islam at the moment. It would only take a Gandhi like figure in the Muslim world to bring some of this violence under control.

I take your point but point out that the fundamental differences between Gandhi's religion and "the religion of peace" preclude such a scenario. They're violent by nature. Their "religion" "gives" them a license to violence in general, and a mandate in specifics. As the late Mrs. Meir pointed out, "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." It isn't in muslims to love. I've yet to meet one that had the vaguest concept of love.

Vincent
06-16-2010, 05:38 PM
There are those that would differ.
173

I have no issue with religious expressions at Ground Zero except if they are islamic. Ground Zero exists because of islam. No expression of any kind by islam in any capacity is appropriate or acceptable. The only "expression of regret" I would ever accept from them would be the self incineration of one of their "holy" cities.


My feeling is that if they can succeed in what they say they want to do, we will all be the better for it.

1,300 years of islam tells us there is no prospect for such an "if".

NJarhead
06-16-2010, 05:54 PM
I have no issue with religious expressions at Ground Zero except if they are islamic. Ground Zero exists because of islam. No expression of any kind by islam in any capacity is appropriate or acceptable. The only "expression of regret" I would ever accept from them would be the self incineration of one of their "holy" cities.



1,300 years of islam tells us there is no prospect for such an "if".

I don't disagree with you often my Friend, and trust me, it goes against what I feel is the easier emotion for me as well, but Islam is not to blame IMO.

I blame men like him:
174


Not folks like them:
175

ricardisimo
06-16-2010, 06:31 PM
I don't disagree with you often my Friend, and trust me, it goes against what I feel is the easier emotion for me as well, but Islam is not to blame IMO.

I blame men like him:
174


Not folks like them:
175

You must be sniffing the same glue I'm using, mein freund.

NJarhead
06-16-2010, 06:33 PM
You must be sniffing the same glue I'm using, mein freund.

:puke:


C'mon Ric, it's already been a shitty day man.

:chuckle:

ricardisimo
06-16-2010, 07:00 PM
:puke:


C'mon Ric, it's already been a shitty day man.

:chuckle:

A good dose of toluene will fix that, trust me. :bananalama: :faint: :rip:

Vincent
06-16-2010, 07:21 PM
I don't disagree with you often my Friend, and trust me, it goes against what I feel is the easier emotion for me as well, but Islam is not to blame IMO.

Not folks like them:
175

I don't think we disagree by much.

My issue is not with "folks like these" anymore than I had any issue with Ivan and Ludmilla Q. Public during the Cold War. They're all victims of oppression. "Folks like these" just don't know it because they're beaten into submission by their "religion".

My issue is with islam which breeds terrorism. mo himself was a terrorist. islam will not rest until you, I, Ric, everybody in this forum, all our families, and everybody we know have been beaten into submission, or have died in the process.

No, we can't just get along. Ground Zero tells us that.

And 'sides, I'm not arguing with you, you're arguing with me. :wink02:

MasterOfPuppets
06-16-2010, 09:41 PM
pay close attention to the bold parts...

Peace march for new mosque gets ugly
Opponents of proposed Sheepshead Bay mosque outnumbered by supporters

A peace march in support of a controversial proposed mosque in Sheepshead Bay turned ugly last Thursday after residents jeered marchers, most of whom were from outside the area.

“This is a Jewish neighborhood — build a mosque in your own neighborhood,” yelled Stan Yunatanov, who lives across the street from the proposed house of worship and cultural center planned for Voorhies Avenue between East 28th and East 29th streets.

Another woman, who refused to give her name, yelled, “[Muslims] don’t love America. They hate America.”

There were no arrests, but tension — which has been high ever since the Muslim American Society purchased the property earlier this year — was definitely of Biblical proportions during the “Children of Abraham Interfaith Peace Walk,” the seventh annual march for the Park Slope-based group.

The peace group originally planned to have its march in Coney Island, but decided to have it in Sheepshead Bay to support the embattled mosque project.

“It’s a show of support for the right of all faiths to worship,” said Rabbi Ellen Lippmann, one of the event organizers and the head of Kolot Chayeinu, a Jewish congregation that holds its services in a Park Slope church.

The show of support had a distinct “outsider” feel, however. Organizers said that they tried to get locals involved, but failed.

“We tried to recruit local clergy, but nobody wanted to join the walk,” said Rev. Tom Martinez, another Park Slope-based cleric.

And the original starting place for the parade — St. Mark’s Catholic Church on the corner of Ocean Avenue and Avenue Z — was changed after the church pulled out, citing local complaints, organizers said.

As a result, the march started on Voorhies and Ocean avenues. In all, about 200 children and adults -— many waving American flags — walked peacefully down Emmons Avenue and up Bedford Avenue before turning down Voorhies, where they were greeted with the catcalls. Some opponents held photos of Muslims burning an American flag and denounced the mosque’s affiliation with the Muslim American Society, which has been tied to Hamas and Hezbollah.

That’s balderdash, said Ahmed Allowey, a longtime neighborhood resident who is working with the Muslim group to create the mosque because the “organization has programs for young people [to] maintain their Islamic identity as well as their American identity so they can grow up to be proud Muslims and proud Americans.”

Despite the ugly catcalls, the majority of anti-mosque residents said that their opposition was not about religion at all, but about traffic. The mosque would be on a very narrow street with little parking.

“I would say the same thing if it were a Catholic church because this isn’t a good spot for a house of worship,” said Amelia McMahon, who lives a block from the site. “This is a residential neighborhood. There’s nowhere to park, and I don’t want all the noise and traffic around here.”

That said, there is a growing Muslim population in the neighborhood, and many said they will walk to the mosque. As it is now, followers of Islam have no local place to worship and teach the religion to their children, supporters said.

“We are more than 100 families in this neighborhood,” said Salle Colagi, who lives with his wife and three children near the site. “This is a good spot for the mosque because usually when we go to worship, or to teach our kids, we have to travel all the way to Bay Ridge or Canarsie. Once this is built, we can walk here.”

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/peace_march_for_new_mosque_gets_ZjTqjKC6yKOgDYsAva 9zgM#ixzz0r8QnulVH

Vincent
06-16-2010, 10:03 PM
Some opponents held photos of Muslims burning an American flag and denounced the mosque’s affiliation with the Muslim American Society, which has been tied to Hamas and Hezbollah.

They're all tied to hamas and hezbollah.

This book details the islamic "program" from the inside of "CAIR" (Council on American-Islamic Relations), the "happy face" of terror that operates in the US. http://www.amazon.com/MUSLIM-MAFIA-Underworld-Conspiring-Islamize/dp/1935071106/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276743458&sr=8-1 The author is a former federal agent, is a U.S. State Department-trained Arabic linguist and counterterrorism specialist. He has the goods.

Shea
06-16-2010, 10:58 PM
They're all tied to hamas and hezbollah.

Sad.

C'mon Vincent, you're smarter than that.

MasterOfPuppets
06-16-2010, 11:18 PM
STATEN ISLAND (CBS) ―

Muslim American Society Questioned Over Mosque

Mohamed Sadeia of the Muslim American Society responds to heated audience members at a hearing over a proposed mosque on Staten Island on June 9, 2010.


A confrontational hearing on Staten Island over a proposed mosque touched off so much emotion that it's prompted a closer look at the group that wants to build it: the Muslim American Society.

Thursday night at a packed hearing, a proposal to build a mosque on Staten Island ran into some heated opposition.

The group that wants to build a mosque and community center on what had been a Catholic convent is the Muslim American Society. Founded in Virginia in 1993, they have built mosques and community centers in the Bath Beach section of Brooklyn, they say, to promote understanding. One of the people at the hearing challenged the leader of the mosque, Mohamed Sadeia, to denounce Hamas and Hezbollah:

Those in attendance felt Sadeia twice avoided a direct answer, until he finally spoke out against terrorism generally.

"There is no relationship, as we stand today, between MAS, the Muslim American Society, and any foreign entity," Sadeia said.

While the Muslim American Society is not on any government list of terrorist organizations, Hamas and Hezbollah are. Annemarie McAvoy, a former federal prosecutor, saw a video on the Internet, like many people at Wednesday night's meeting, which shows a current director of the Muslim American Society eight years ago cheering at a Washington rally when the crowd is asked, "Who supports Hamas?" and then "Who supports Hezbollah?"

Sadeia said that man's eight-year-old opinion did not speak for his group, but strong doubts about the Muslim American Society remain:

"A couple of the founders apparently are members of the Muslim Brotherhood," said McAvoy. "Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood has a lot of ties to Muslim extremists

CBS 2 made repeated efforts to interview Sadeia on Thursday or some other leader from the Muslim American Society, but messages were not answered. After facing such strong opposition Wednesday night, it is not clear if the group still plans to build the mosque.


http://wcbstv.com/local/staten.island.mosque.2.1745014.html

Vincent
06-16-2010, 11:20 PM
Sad.

C'mon Vincent, you're smarter than that.

Shea, there is tons of very well documented evidence of direct domestic support of hamas, hezbollah, et al. Yes, you have to look for it because "the media" won't touch it. While there are many books and articles, the one I referenced above is a good look into the operations of CAIR by one of our professionals. One of the more visible and painful examples of the relationship between a mosque and terror is the case of the Ft Hood massacre. Its all out there in black and white, yet our gubmint can't bring themselves to call that what it is because of their fear of offending muslims.

I don't involve myself in this stuff because I'm bored. They are destroying Europe and the UK, and have a substantial base to do the same here.

Vincent
06-16-2010, 11:35 PM
"Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood has a lot of ties to Muslim extremists

No, the muslim brotherhood ARE muslim extremists. "The Brotherhood was founded in accordance with al-Banna’s proclamation that Islam be “given hegemony over all matters of life.” Accordingly, the Brotherhood seeks to establish an Islamic Caliphate spanning the entire Muslim world. It also aspires to make Islamic (Shari’a) law the sole basis of jurisprudence and governance. Toward this purpose -- encapsulated in the Brotherhood’s militant credo: “God is our objective, the Koran is our Constitution, the Prophet is our leader, struggle is our way, and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations” -- the Brotherhood since its founding has supported the use of armed struggle, or jihad. The Brotherhood supports the waging of jihad against non-Muslim “infidels,” and has expressed support for terrorism against Israel, whose legitimacy the Brotherhood does not recognize, and against the West, particularly the United States."

Everybody gets all wee-wee'd up over things like the "aryan brotherhood", and they should. But those lowlife are pretenders compared to the muslim brotherhood and their "associates".

The Patriot
06-16-2010, 11:39 PM
Okay, to all those against the Mosque, I can't judge the intentions of these particular Muslims (I hope they're good), but let's pretend that they're ill-intentioned and are actually doing this to show that they have conquered New York... Unless you can prove that they support terrorism or violence, there isn't much you can do to prevent them from building their Mosque.

One of the primary purposes of the constitution was to protect religion from the government. We can't even stop the Church that goes to funerals to celebrate the deaths of soldiers! If we tried to stop the Mosque, it would go to the Supreme Court and they would win.

Vincent
06-16-2010, 11:53 PM
Okay, to all those against the Mosque, I can't judge the intentions of these particular Muslims (I hope they're good), but let's pretend that they're ill-intentioned and are actually doing this to show that they have conquered New York... Unless you can prove that they support terrorism or violence, there isn't much you can do to prevent them from building their Mosque.

One of the primary purposes of the constitution was to protect religion from the government. We can't even stop the Church that goes to funerals to celebrate the deaths of soldiers! If we tried to stop the Mosque, it would go to the Supreme Court and they would win.

You're right on every word. What can be done about it? Probably nothing. People are too wed to their debt service to risk civil disobedience.

But as you did, reverse the circumstances. What happens when Christians try to build Churches in muslim countries? What would happen if Jews tried to build a Temple in a muslim country? Its all out there for anybody's perusal. Violence, mayhem, murder, burning. The same thing that has been going on since the 7th century. The same thing that has been going on since Jews reentered their homeland.

Why do we tolerate these savages? I hearken back to the video at the top of the thread. Its insanity.

SteelCityMom
06-17-2010, 01:06 PM
.

This is all about symbolism here. Building that mosque anywhere on the island of Manhattan is symbolic. It's symbolic in the same way as if we had had leadership that would have incinerated mecca and medina on 9/12/2001 to say "We heard you. Now hear us muslim bastards".

You do realize there's already a couple of mosques and Islamic Centers in Manhattan right? One Islamic Center if fairly close to ground zero. I get your hatred for all things Islamic (that's your right), but like it's been mentioned, it's not like they're building a mosque right at the site. They also didn't really need to ask anyones permission either...if they want to build it all they need to do is apply for a grant and pick a spot, just like any other church would.

I just think it's silly to get so worked up about a mosque being built in Manhattan, when there's already mosques there.

SteelCityMom
06-17-2010, 01:12 PM
You're right on every word. What can be done about it? Probably nothing. People are too wed to their debt service to risk civil disobedience.

But as you did, reverse the circumstances. What happens when Christians try to build Churches in muslim countries? What would happen if Jews tried to build a Temple in a muslim country? Its all out there for anybody's perusal. Violence, mayhem, murder, burning. The same thing that has been going on since the 7th century. The same thing that has been going on since Jews reentered their homeland.

Why do we tolerate these savages? I hearken back to the video at the top of the thread. Its insanity.

Ban one religion in this country and it would open up a whole can of worms. Do that and suddenly were more like muslim countries and less like America.

Vincent
06-17-2010, 01:52 PM
Ban one religion in this country and it would open up a whole can of worms. Do that and suddenly were more like muslim countries and less like America.

Mom, I agree with your point entirely.

islam's history indicates that tolerance of islam leads to becoming a muslim country. We need look no further than what is happening to Europe and the UK.

To you, Patriot, WarDen, Shea, and I'm not intentionally leaving anyone out, what is the solution here?

NJarhead
06-17-2010, 02:23 PM
Mom, I agree with your point entirely.

islam's history indicates that tolerance of islam leads to becoming a muslim country. We need look no further than what is happening to Europe and the UK.

To you, Patriot, WarDen, Shea, and I'm not intentionally leaving anyone out, what is the solution here?

I say give it a chance. No one says we can't respond accordingly should they "abuse" our tolerance.

P.S. "Tolerance" probably isn't the word to use here, but you get my point.

Vince, there are enough of us that would just as soon die before yielding to any religion wishing to change our nation. I'm not worried in the least; even if they blatantly tried.

SteelCityMom
06-17-2010, 02:48 PM
Mom, I agree with your point entirely.

islam's history indicates that tolerance of islam leads to becoming a muslim country. We need look no further than what is happening to Europe and the UK.

To you, Patriot, WarDen, Shea, and I'm not intentionally leaving anyone out, what is the solution here?

The solution? Continue living your life and punish those who break the law is the easiest solution. I'm not sure that punishing people based on their religion is a good one though. Otherwise, the entire Christian faith would have to be punished for the acts of extremist organizations like the KKK, Army of God and Concerned Christians (to name a few).

Or what about the Christian Identity movement, which is a loosely affiliated global group of churches and individuals devoted to a racialized theology that asserts North European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people. It has been associated with groups such as the Aryan Nations, Aryan Republican Army, Army of God, Phineas Priesthood, and The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord. It has been cited as an influence in a number of terrorist attacks around the world, including the 2002 Soweto bombings.

There are extremists in every religion...even good "God fearing" Christians right here in the good ole' US of A.

MasterOfPuppets
06-17-2010, 03:01 PM
The solution? Continue living your life and punish those who break the law is the easiest solution. I'm not sure that punishing people based on their religion is a good one though. Otherwise, the entire Christian faith would have to be punished for the acts of extremist organizations like the KKK, Army of God and Concerned Christians (to name a few).

Or what about the Christian Identity movement, which is a loosely affiliated global group of churches and individuals devoted to a racialized theology that asserts North European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people. It has been associated with groups such as the Aryan Nations, Aryan Republican Army, Army of God, Phineas Priesthood, and The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord. It has been cited as an influence in a number of terrorist attacks around the world, including the 2002 Soweto bombings.

There are extremists in every religion...even good "God fearing" Christians right here in the good ole' US of A.

the difference between the christian radicals and muslim radicals, is the christian radicals don't have governments funding them and endorsing their crimes against humanity.

NJarhead
06-17-2010, 03:14 PM
the difference between the christian radicals and muslim radicals, is the christian radicals don't have governments funding them and endorsing their crimes against humanity.
Well, historically they have.

MasterOfPuppets
06-17-2010, 03:24 PM
Well, historically they have.

good thing they didn't have nukes back then huh ?

SteelCityMom
06-17-2010, 03:40 PM
the difference between the christian radicals and muslim radicals, is the christian radicals don't have governments funding them and endorsing their crimes against humanity.

So? That doesn't mean that every muslim and every mosque is supporting terror. Also, whether it's from government funding or otherwise, every radical that acts out on their missions has someone or something funding them.

And as Warden mentioned...historically they did. Specifically from the Pope and Vatican City, back when they were the law of the land and controlled peoples lives (and deaths). Why, there were times when you would have been forced to submit to a certain sect of Christianity (Catholicism) or be imprisoned and/or killed.

NJarhead
06-17-2010, 03:41 PM
good thing they didn't have nukes back then huh ?
Between you and me, had the Vatican had nukes back then, you'd be reading about Muslims like you read about cavemen.

MasterOfPuppets
06-17-2010, 04:03 PM
So? That doesn't mean that every muslim and every mosque is supporting terror. Also, whether it's from government funding or otherwise, every radical that acts out on their missions has someone or something funding them.

And as Warden mentioned...historically they did. Specifically from the Pope and Vatican City, back when they were the law of the land and controlled peoples lives (and deaths). Why, there were times when you would have been forced to submit to a certain sect of Christianity (Catholicism) or be imprisoned and/or killed.

really ? i've read dozens of articles (and posted a few here) that link hamas and hezbollah to the muslim organizations that fund the mosque building in the country. who is hamas and hezbollah linked to ? iran, lebanon, syria, palestine. ...


U.S. moves to seize California mosque with possible Iran link

The federal government has moved to seize a Carmichael mosque and seven other properties from Texas to New York owned by a nonprofit Muslim organization that federal prosecutors allege is a front for the Iranian government.

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/11/13/78818/us-moves-to-seize-california-mosque.html#ixzz0rCtFsjuI




US mosques and New York skyscraper seized over alleged Iran links
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/13/alavi-assa-mosque-skyscraper-seized


Government-Funded Jihad
Rep. Darrel Issa (R-C.A.) and Sen. Susan Collins (R-M.E.) are demanding answers following the Investigative Project on Terrorism's discovery that taxpayer money is going to the radical Dar al-Hijrah mosque of Falls Church, Virginia. The revelation is an unsettling reminder of how jihadists are using America's freedoms and ineptitude of the government to their advantage.

NJarhead
06-17-2010, 04:10 PM
So? That doesn't mean that every muslim and every mosque is supporting terror. Also, whether it's from government funding or otherwise, every radical that acts out on their missions has someone or something funding them.

And as Warden mentioned...historically they did. Specifically from the Pope and Vatican City, back when they were the law of the land and controlled peoples lives (and deaths). Why, there were times when you would have been forced to submit to a certain sect of Christianity (Catholicism) or be imprisoned and/or killed.

Yep. Poor Galileo Galilei had to denounce his own life's works (expansion on that of Copernicus) to survive the wrath of the Papacy, who would still have us believe the universe revolved around the Earth at its center.

NJarhead
06-17-2010, 04:12 PM
U.S. moves to seize California mosque with possible Iran link

The federal government has moved to seize a Carmichael mosque and seven other properties from Texas to New York owned by a nonprofit Muslim organization that federal prosecutors allege is a front for the Iranian government.

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/11/1...#ixzz0rCtFsjuI (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/11/13/78818/us-moves-to-seize-california-mosque.html#ixzz0rCtFsjuI)
US mosques and New York skyscraper seized over alleged Iran links
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...scraper-seized (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/13/alavi-assa-mosque-skyscraper-seized)




Sounds like we're handling it exactly as we should. These stories actually make me feel better.
It's a no brainer that they will try to infiltrate our country, but as long as we continue to hunt them down and snuff them out while not violating our own constitution, I'm a happy camper.

MasterOfPuppets
06-17-2010, 04:19 PM
Sounds like we're handling it exactly as we should. These stories actually make me feel better.
It's a no brainer that they will try to infiltrate our country, but as long as we continue to hunt them down and snuff them out while not violating our own constitution, I'm a happy camper.

try to? ... you might wanna read this article...
http://www.aina.org/news/20100528122649.htm

The mosque's ties to radical Islam and terrorism are so numerous they hard to keep track of. A basic Internet search would have yielded this information for the government officials that decided to do business with Dar al-Hijrah. The mosque should not be operating, and it is a disgrace that the American people are paying them tens of thousands of dollars without even knowing it.

SteelCityMom
06-17-2010, 04:21 PM
Sounds like we're handling it exactly as we should. These stories actually make me feel better.
It's a no brainer that they will try to infiltrate our country, but as long as we continue to hunt them down and snuff them out while not violating our own constitution, I'm a happy camper.

Exactly. That's my feelings about it as well.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion in any form really because it often breeds people who will do crazy things like start wars and murder innocent people in the name of their beliefs. But this country is founded on tolerance of all religious beliefs, not the belief that a religions should be abolished because of radicals. If that were the case, there'd be absolutely no religion in this country.

MasterOfPuppets
06-17-2010, 04:25 PM
Exactly. That's my feelings about it as well.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion in any form really because it often breeds people who will do crazy things like start wars and murder innocent people in the name of their beliefs. But this country is founded on tolerance of all religious beliefs, not the belief that a religions should be abolished because of radicals. If that were the case, there'd be absolutely no religion in this country.
and that right there is the loophole the radicals are exploiting...

Rep. Darrel Issa (R-C.A.) and Sen. Susan Collins (R-M.E.) are demanding answers following the Investigative Project on Terrorism's discovery that taxpayer money is going to the radical Dar al-Hijrah mosque of Falls Church, Virginia. The revelation is an unsettling reminder of how jihadists are using America's freedoms and ineptitude of the government to their advantage.

NJarhead
06-17-2010, 04:26 PM
Exactly. That's my feelings about it as well.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion in any form really because it often breeds people who will do crazy things like start wars and murder innocent people in the name of their beliefs. But this country is founded on tolerance of all religious beliefs, not the belief that a religions should be abolished because of radicals. If that were the case, there'd be absolutely no religion in this country.

I agree and I get fed up with the self righteous finger pointing by our own Christians here in the U.S.
But, as long as they stay out of my face and that of my family's, then let them babble.

I DO believe folks yieldling "God loves dead soldiers" signs and the like, should have their heads adjusted with a Louisville Slugger however.

NJarhead
06-17-2010, 04:30 PM
and that right there is the loophole the radicals are exploiting...
It's no more a loophole than cars having the ability to speed. If we discover they are radical then we deal with it, but the Government does provide funding to religious organizations.

SteelCityMom
06-17-2010, 04:44 PM
and that right there is the loophole the radicals are exploiting...

I won't disagree with that, but it's not a loophole that JUST Islamic radicals exploit. Or do you really think that members of Army of God, Christian Identity movement, Concerned Christians, KKK, Christian Patriot movement and Lambs of Christ (and many others) don't have churches built, don't get funding through business and investment tactics and don't get government (aka taxpayer) grants for growth and funding?

MasterOfPuppets
06-17-2010, 04:57 PM
I won't disagree with that, but it's not a loophole that JUST Islamic radicals exploit. Or do you really think that members of Army of God, Christian Identity movement, Concerned Christians, KKK, Christian Patriot movement and Lambs of Christ (and many others) don't have churches built, don't get funding through business and investment tactics and don't get government (aka taxpayer) grants for growth and funding?

and thats why i agree with this article...


Time to strip tax exempt status from all churches

As the nation, states, and communities struggle during trying economic times, revoking the tax-exempt status for religious organizations must be considered and is long overdue. This is especially true when groups like Mormons, Catholics, and evangelical Christians contribute to political campaigns that promote their hateful religious agendas, or worse yet, when they preach political issues from the pulpit.

There is separation of Church and State in the United States, and that means religious organizations do not involve themselves in politics to set policy or influence politicians. However, there are instances where the Catholic Church pours money into campaigns against healthcare reform, and the LDS (Mormons) church poured huge amounts of money to defeat gay marriage in California. The campaign in California is most interesting because most of the funds came from Utah.

Around the country, and in the Modesto area, churches put up signs in front of their magnificent buildings urging defeat of gay marriage initiatives, and mobilized their congregations to campaign for discrimination. There were sermons devoted to the evils of gay marriage, and the theme of the sermons was saving traditional marriage and children from the horrors of homosexuality. The twisted reasoning is that allowing gays to marry would destroy conventional marriage, and is an abomination according to the Biblical edict from God.

But God’s laws and injunctions have no place in politics or policy decisions, and candidates have no morals if they take money, endorsements, or support from religious organizations that push for laws that are over 2,000 years old and come from a fairy tale. As with all lobbying groups, there is a price to pay for their support during election time.

Groups like the Tea Party Palinites, and Fox News’ Glenn Beck (Mormon) use God to influence and frighten religious people about the dangers of Obama, Socialism, and the evil gay agenda. Because they use God and money to influence political decisions, all religious organizations have to lose the tax-exempt status.

If the Mormon, Catholic, or evangelical Churches want to run the government, or at least influence decisions made by our representatives, they must lose their tax-exempt status at every level, including the property tax exemption and become lobbyists or a separate political party.

The property tax alone on mega-churches would help communities that struggle for funds. It is especially egregious that most of these buildings sit on prime commercial real estate, and their expansion takes up valuable farmland and public safety resources at a time when cities like Modesto lays off police officers, firemen, and teachers. The property tax alone would fund many positions that the church uses such as police and fire protection.

The scare tactics and fear of damnation for contradicting God usually works on the faithful regardless of the Constitution or their own rule book’s (Bible) exhortation to separate themselves from the government.

Using fear to control the congregation is wrong, but it is their club and they have the freedom to use any obscene tactic to control their adherents. However, when they use their tax-free money and the pulpit to influence policy, they are no better than a lobbyist. Even if they do not try to influence policy, they are no better than a charitable, tax-paying citizen, and must pay their fair share, like Jesus told them to.

SteelCityMom
06-17-2010, 04:59 PM
and thats why i agree with this article...

I am 100% with you on this...it is very long overdue. Good article as well.

MasterOfPuppets
06-17-2010, 05:12 PM
I am 100% with you on this...it is very long overdue. Good article as well.

the figure i've seen, said the catholic church had over 400 billion dollars in assets . now how does a "should be charitable organization", manage to hold on to all that wealth, while supposedly easing the suffering of those in need ? i don't recall reading anything about the catholic church helping out monetarily in haiti or during any disaster for that matter.


but anyway this should be a thread all its own, so i won't hijack this one any farther...

Dino 6 Rings
06-18-2010, 12:22 PM
Looks like so many here are grouping all Muslims into one category as psycho extremists and therefore they must all be murderous nut jobs, just like those terrorists that blew up the towers.

Yes in fact, I do put them all in the same category because the heart of their doctrine is the spread of their "religion" as fundemental Governoring Law. It has zero to do with "worship" and everything to do with Taking Over the Entire Aspect of a Human Beings Life.

So yeah, As long as those jackkholes bow four times a day to a MOON GOD and a SPACE ROCK...I will put them all in the group of people on this planet that want me to die, convert, or convert or die.

Dino 6 Rings
06-18-2010, 12:28 PM
Ban one religion in this country and it would open up a whole can of worms. Do that and suddenly were more like muslim countries and less like America.

Islam is not a religion, its a form of Political Movement hidden behind "worship" its exactly like Nazism in fact.

Dino 6 Rings
06-18-2010, 12:34 PM
Hey maybe we should allow a group of White Neo Nazi, anti Federal Government pro Militia guys to build a "memorial" to Timothy McVeigh next to the Oklahoma City Federal Building?

See how effing dumb it is to allow the enemy to build a Monument to their Greatest Victory against us at the Site of the death of 3000 of our Civilians?

Maybe we should build a Statue of George Bush in downtown Baghdad, or how about a Catholic Church with a McDonalds in MECCA where NO NONE MOSLMES are even allowed? How about that.

I swear, the enemy is at the gates and people REFUSE to see it.

SteelCityMom
06-18-2010, 12:44 PM
Islam is not a religion, its a form of Political Movement hidden behind "worship" its exactly like Nazism in fact.

Hey, I could give a hoot what you think about their religion...I feel the same way about all organized religions. I just think it would be hypocritical to ban one religion because of extremists all while promoting another that has the same kind of extremists (and have murdered people on US soil).

7SteelGal43
06-18-2010, 02:07 PM
Hey, I could give a hoot what you think about their religion...I feel the same way about all organized religions. I just think it would be hypocritical to ban one religion because of extremists all while promoting another that has the same kind of extremists (and have murdered people on US soil).

In recent history (and by recent history I mean a helluva long time), which has been responsible for the most loss of innocent life ? Extremist Christians or Extremist Muslims ? Is it even CLOSE ?!

SteelCityMom
06-18-2010, 02:40 PM
In recent history (and by recent history I mean a helluva long time), which has been responsible for the most loss of innocent life ? Extremist Christians or Extremist Muslims ? Is it even CLOSE ?!

Probably closer than you think. And I'm assuming you mean worldwide, because in the US I'd be willing to say that at least 3,000 people have been killed by various Christian extremist groups...just not all at once. This includes all KKK attacks over the decades, neo-nazi's doing "God's" work, anti-abortion attacks on clinics, patients and doctors, Jim Jones and other Christian cults of the like...amongst others.

Worldwide though, you have the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India who are considered one of the top ten terrorist organizations in the world and have been known to finance their activities by producing pornographic films of men and women being raped and tortured for ransom. This group is tied to the insurgencies in Nagaland, which has to date claimed roughly 2,300 lives, and is still going on today. They are a Christian group.

Or you could look at the situations in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics who have been killing and fighting for decades. I'm sure thousands of lives have been lost there as well over the years.

The holocaust (which was partly a Christian movement against Jews and Catholics amongst other religious factions). I don't think I need to tell you how many people were killed then because they weren't Christians or didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs. He used a lot of Christian propaganda to sway public opinion.

The Lăncieri and The Iron Guard of Romania were Christian extremist groups (mostly active in the 20's,30's and 40's) that were known for terrorizing and massacring Jews and non-Christians.

Russian National Unity (which is still active today) is a far-right Christian based organization that promotes a greater role of the Russian Orthodox Church. They have been accused of murders, and several terrorist attacks including the bombing of the US Consulate in Ekaterinburg.

The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda was formed in 1987 and is engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in what is now Africa's longest-running conflicts. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations. They claim to be Christian and have been accused of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual enslavement of women and children, and forcing children to participate in hostilities.

These are just a few examples...and more recent than "a helluva long time". There's more obvious examples like the Salem witch trials, all the Inquisitions and the Holy Wars that I could bring up as well. I'm sure if I did more digging I could find a lot more in many more countries that are quite recent as well.

NJarhead
06-18-2010, 03:34 PM
Hey maybe we should allow a group of White Neo Nazi, anti Federal Government pro Militia guys to build a "memorial" to Timothy McVeigh next to the Oklahoma City Federal Building?

See how effing dumb it is to allow the enemy to build a Monument to their Greatest Victory against us at the Site of the death of 3000 of our Civilians?

Maybe we should build a Statue of George Bush in downtown Baghdad, or how about a Catholic Church with a McDonalds in MECCA where NO NONE MOSLMES are even allowed? How about that.

I swear, the enemy is at the gates and people REFUSE to see it.

Sorry buddy, but I'm not buying that. Same shit was said about all Japanese Americans during WWII. We imprisoned them, deported them, displaced them and stole their homes and business and then, 50 years later we apologized to them.
SOME were lucky to serve in the military and they fought bravely too.

There is no shortage of Muslims in our military at present and while a few have refused to fight and even resorted to violence against their fellow troops, the vast majority of them serve honorably.

I think it is unfair to label and entire group of people by the actions of less than 10% of them. In fact, I think it's ignorant bullshit. Every damn generation has done it to one group or another and this time its ALL Muslims. And the only purpose this serves is to cause even more unnecessary friction between all the cultures involved.

Saudi Arabi gave Israel access to their air space in order to attack another Muslim nation. If THAT isn't progress then I don't know what is.

Dino 6 Rings
06-18-2010, 04:46 PM
Sorry buddy, but I'm not buying that. Same shit was said about all Japanese Americans during WWII. We imprisoned them, deported them, displaced them and stole their homes and business and then, 50 years later we apologized to them.
SOME were lucky to serve in the military and they fought bravely too.

There is no shortage of Muslims in our military at present and while a few have refused to fight and even resorted to violence against their fellow troops, the vast majority of them serve honorably.

I think it is unfair to label and entire group of people by the actions of less than 10% of them. In fact, I think it's ignorant bullshit. Every damn generation has done it to one group or another and this time its ALL Muslims. And the only purpose this serves is to cause even more unnecessary friction between all the cultures involved.

Saudi Arabi gave Israel access to their air space in order to attack another Muslim nation. If THAT isn't progress then I don't know what is.


I can go to Japan now and now worry about getting my head chopped off. Try going to Mecca some time.

The Saudi's are Sunni's the Iranians are Shiites, so I see the Saudi's as pushing their old war (since the days after Mohammed died and his nephew Ali had his head cut off and sent to his mom in Demascus) against the Shiites.

Call it ignorant all you want, I care not, I have identified the enemy of our US Constitution and our way of life. When one of them walks into a store you're shopping in and blows himself up in the name of his moon god, then maybe you'll see it differently. Kumbaya and all my good buddy.

CantStop85
06-18-2010, 05:02 PM
As a non-religious person, I say that if practitioners of Islam are going to get lumped together with Islamic extremists, then Christians better get ready to be held accountable for extremist groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church.

NJarhead
06-18-2010, 05:19 PM
I can go to Japan now and now worry about getting my head chopped off. Try going to Mecca some time.

The Saudi's are Sunni's the Iranians are Shiites, so I see the Saudi's as pushing their old war (since the days after Mohammed died and his nephew Ali had his head cut off and sent to his mom in Demascus) against the Shiites.

Call it ignorant all you want, I care not, I have identified the enemy of our US Constitution and our way of life. When one of them walks into a store you're shopping in and blows himself up in the name of his moon god, then maybe you'll see it differently. Kumbaya and all my good buddy.

You can go to Japan now, but you couldn't back then.
Have you never been in the same store as a Muslim in this country?

Vincent
06-18-2010, 05:53 PM
As a non-religious person, I say that if practitioners of Islam are going to get lumped together with Islamic extremists, then Christians better get ready to be held accountable for extremist groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church.

Get ready why?

muslims blow people and things up, start wars all over the world, commit murder and mayhem all over the world on a daily basis, blow up subway trains, and busses, and on and on.

Westboro Baptist Church by contrast are merely deeply offensive.

ALLD
06-18-2010, 06:02 PM
Lots of good posts on both sides. It's difficult to be a diplomat in these times.

I think some people see war as a sport whether it be secular or religious. Those people have little regard for casualties- innocent or targeted. Their primary objective is to selfishly promote their agenda.

In our current conflicts, many people have had their values altered by more powerful individuals or groups and force others to sacrifice their own life for the cause such as the case with suicide bombing. That is the horror of war.

*Saudi Arabia giving air space to Israel to conduct operations is like the Red Sea parting all over again. I guess we know who our friends are.

ALLD
06-18-2010, 06:07 PM
and thats why i agree with this article...

I agree with the abolition to the tax-exempt status of churches. I do not agree when the article states the Bible is a fairy tale.

MasterOfPuppets
06-18-2010, 06:09 PM
Saudi Arabi gave Israel access to their air space in order to attack another Muslim nation. If THAT isn't progress then I don't know what is.
which may, or may not be true...

http://www.zeenews.com/news633851.html
Saudi denies Israel airspace deal against Iran
Dubai: Saudi Arabia has said it will never allow its territory to be used for aggression against another nation, denying reports that it had given permission to Israel to overfly its airspace to attack Iran.

"Saudi Arabia has repeatedly reiterated its clear stance that it will never allow anyone to use its territories or airspace for aggression against another nation," a statement said.
Reacting to a report in a British newspaper, the country said it would be illogical to give such a permission to Israel, with which Saudi Arabia has no relations.

Earlier, Saudi and US defence officials were quoted in a report as saying that Riyadh will allow Israeli jets to use its airspace if Tel Aviv decides to attack Iranian nuclear facilities.

In London, Ambassador of Saudi Arabia to UK Prince Mohammed bin Nawaf issued a categorical denial of the report.
n a press statement, he said this would be against the policy adopted and followed by the Kingdom. He reiterated the Kingdom's stand in rejecting any violation of its territories or airspace.

He said it would be illogical to allow the Israeli occupying force, with whom Saudi Arabia has no relations whatsoever, to use its land and airspace

SteelCityMom
06-18-2010, 06:17 PM
Get ready why?

muslims blow people and things up, start wars all over the world, commit murder and mayhem all over the world on a daily basis, blow up subway trains, and busses, and on and on.

Westboro Baptist Church by contrast are merely deeply offensive.

And extremists of Christianity and other religions don't?

silver & black
06-18-2010, 06:28 PM
Get ready why?

muslims blow people and things up, start wars all over the world, commit murder and mayhem all over the world on a daily basis, blow up subway trains, and busses, and on and on.

Westboro Baptist Church by contrast are merely deeply offensive.

:clap2:

silver & black
06-18-2010, 06:35 PM
And extremists of Christianity and other religions don't?

What Christian denomination routinely carries out terrorist acts on innocent people around the world?

Obviously, the Christian religion has had it's not so glamorous moments in recorded history, but, it also doesn't kill thousands of innocents in the name of "***" (insert deity of choice) on a regular basis either.

SteelCityMom
06-18-2010, 06:38 PM
What Christian denomination routinely carries out terrorist acts on innocent people around the world?

Obviously, the Christian religion has had it's not so glamorous moments in recorded history, but, it also doesn't kill thousands of innocents in the name of "***" (insert deity of choice) on a regular basis either.

I posted a number of examples (some of which are still in activity today) on the previous page. Like I said back there, if anyone needs more examples I'd be happy to dig around.

silver & black
06-18-2010, 06:44 PM
I posted a number of examples (some of which are still in activity today) on the previous page. Like I said back there, if anyone needs more examples I'd be happy to dig around.

You win. My post was a bit hasty. I still don't want a Mosque built on Ground Zero.

CantStop85
06-18-2010, 07:26 PM
Get ready why?

muslims blow people and things up, start wars all over the world, commit murder and mayhem all over the world on a daily basis, blow up subway trains, and busses, and on and on.

Westboro Baptist Church by contrast are merely deeply offensive.

Sorry that I didn't provide a harsh enough example for you, but if you don't believe that Christians have committed atrocities as bad or worse than the Islamic extremists, then you must live a very sheltered life. I will defer to SteelCityMom's post as she has provided plenty of "good" examples:


Probably closer than you think. And I'm assuming you mean worldwide, because in the US I'd be willing to say that at least 3,000 people have been killed by various Christian extremist groups...just not all at once. This includes all KKK attacks over the decades, neo-nazi's doing "God's" work, anti-abortion attacks on clinics, patients and doctors, Jim Jones and other Christian cults of the like...amongst others.

Worldwide though, you have the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India who are considered one of the top ten terrorist organizations in the world and have been known to finance their activities by producing pornographic films of men and women being raped and tortured for ransom. This group is tied to the insurgencies in Nagaland, which has to date claimed roughly 2,300 lives, and is still going on today. They are a Christian group.

Or you could look at the situations in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics who have been killing and fighting for decades. I'm sure thousands of lives have been lost there as well over the years.

The holocaust (which was partly a Christian movement against Jews and Catholics amongst other religious factions). I don't think I need to tell you how many people were killed then because they weren't Christians or didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs. He used a lot of Christian propaganda to sway public opinion.

The Lăncieri and The Iron Guard of Romania were Christian extremist groups (mostly active in the 20's,30's and 40's) that were known for terrorizing and massacring Jews and non-Christians.

Russian National Unity (which is still active today) is a far-right Christian based organization that promotes a greater role of the Russian Orthodox Church. They have been accused of murders, and several terrorist attacks including the bombing of the US Consulate in Ekaterinburg.

The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda was formed in 1987 and is engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in what is now Africa's longest-running conflicts. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations. They claim to be Christian and have been accused of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual enslavement of women and children, and forcing children to participate in hostilities.

These are just a few examples...and more recent than "a helluva long time". There's more obvious examples like the Salem witch trials, all the Inquisitions and the Holy Wars that I could bring up as well. I'm sure if I did more digging I could find a lot more in many more countries that are quite recent as well.

The fact is there are bad Christians, there are bad Muslims, there are bad Atheists, there are bad Jews, etc...but there are also many good Christians, good Muslims, good Atheists, and good Jews. The problem here is, due to our media-driven culture, we only hear the bad things about the Muslims because they're the only things considered news-worthy and most of us don't have enough exposure to the Islamic culture to realize that not all Muslims behave this way. The same thing happens on the other side of the fence; many Muslims only see the bad image of Christians (especially Americans) and don't realize that the majority of them are people just like them.

If you don't want a religious building near Ground Zero, that's fine...but to justify forbidding a Mosque by saying that all Muslims are evil/terrorists is pretty shallow-sighted.

Vincent
06-19-2010, 12:10 AM
Probably closer than you think. And I'm assuming you mean worldwide, because in the US I'd be willing to say that at least 3,000 people have been killed by various Christian extremist groups...just not all at once. This includes all KKK attacks over the decades, neo-nazi's doing "God's" work, anti-abortion attacks on clinics, patients and doctors, Jim Jones and other Christian cults of the like...amongst others.
If you’re going to make such an outrageous and stupid statement, then say it like you mean it and back it up with facts. What “at least 3,000 people”, when and where? Lists. Details. Not opinion and conjecture.

The KKK was the terrorist wing of the democrat party. Their words, not mine. They created it. That’s what they called it. The KKK had zero, nil, nada to do with any church or Christianity. It was a political organization created to terrorize blacks and Republicans.

nazism in any form is satanic. The “swastika”, or as it was known to Nazis, the hakenkreuz (broken cross) ,represented to them the broken power of the cross – deeply satanic. The third reich was occultic from the top on down. It was anti-Christ to its core. Millions of Christians were murdered in their death camps. I have seen the statistics on display in their museums in their death camps with my own eyes.

The People’s Temple was a cult. Period. It had nothing to do with Christianity in any way, manner, or form. We lived in San Francisco at the time. I am very familiar with that story.

Abortion clinics? Attacks on clinics, patients and doctors? Are you serious? Less than a dozen murders in 6 isolated instances over 16 years. Extremist groups? No, individuals. You like to quote wiki bull@#$%. Go look it up. It reads like a police blotter because that’s what it is – isolated crime – no worse than any other crimes. Don’t attempt to make it anything more.

The following is directly lifted from wiki bull@#$%.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism


Worldwide though, you have the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India who are considered one of the top ten terrorist organizations in the world and have been known to finance their activities by producing pornographic films of men and women being raped and tortured for ransom. This group is tied to the insurgencies in Nagaland, which has to date claimed roughly 2,300 lives, and is still going on today. They are a Christian group.
Or you could look at the situations in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics who have been killing and fighting for decades. I'm sure thousands of lives have been lost there as well over the years.

You blame the “holocaust’ on Christianity?


The holocaust (which was partly a Christian movement against Jews and Catholics amongst other religious factions). I don't think I need to tell you how many people were killed then because they weren't Christians or didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs. He used a lot of Christian propaganda to sway public opinion.

I have listened to a lot of ignorance in my lifetime. That statement ranks very near to the top. You have not the vaguest clue what you are talking about. 20 million died in nazi death camps. 6 million were Jews. “The rest” were Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Evangelicals, and every Christian denomination that existed in Germany and lands conquered by the nazis. They died at the hands of satanic barbarians because they were Christians.


The Lăncieri and The Iron Guard of Romania were Christian extremist groups (mostly active in the 20's,30's and 40's) that were known for terrorizing and massacring Jews and non-Christians. …

The rest of your wiki bull@#$% isn’t worthy of comment. It was obviously written by a 7th grader.


These are just a few examples...and more recent than "a helluva long time". There's more obvious examples like the Salem witch trials, all the Inquisitions and the Holy Wars that I could bring up as well. I'm sure if I did more digging I could find a lot more in many more countries that are quite recent as well.

Please, do more digging. You might stumble upon reality. But until you are able to produce documented lists of millions of deaths directly at the hands of Christians of any denomination, don’t make absurd comparisons to the atrocities muslims have been committing for 1,300 years.

Vincent
06-19-2010, 12:17 AM
I will defer to SteelCityMom's post as she has provided plenty of "good" examples:

You got nothin. You quote nonsense because you have no idea what you're talking about.


I The fact is there are bad Christians,... blah, blah, blah

Post your views in a bunghole forum. More your speed.

SteelCityMom
06-19-2010, 10:22 AM
Sorry that you can't face the reality that there are crazy Christians willing to die for their faith like Islamic extremists. You can denounce the National Liberation Front of Tripura all you want because I got some of the info off of wiki (because I wasn't trying to spend my day citing examples), but they are a real terrorist organization who has committed horrible act...here you go.

http://www.christianaggression.org/features_nlft.php

And I don't blame the holocaust on Christianity. I said Jews and other Christians who didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs were murdered and that he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion. So, take from that what you want.


Maybe YOU need to do some reading on the Iron Guard and Lancieri, because what I posted is 100% true. Start with Background and Precursors to the Holocaust...there's some very good information in there about how the Lancieri were attached to the National-Christian Defense League and the National Christian Party.

For information on the Iron Guard, start with The Men of the Archangel" by Eugen Weber, in International Fascism: New Thoughts and Approaches. It's a matter of fact that when the Iron Guard was first formed, it was called "The Legion of the Archangel Michael"


With Codreanu as a charismatic leader, the Legion was known for skillful propaganda, including a very capable use of spectacle. Utilizing marches, religious processions and patriotic and partisan hymns and anthems, along with volunteer work and charitable campaigns in rural areas in support of its anti-Communist, anti-Semitic, anti-liberal, and anti-parliamentary philosophy, the League presented itself as an alternative to corrupt, clientelist parties including the NCDL. Initially, the Iron Guard hoped to encompass any political faction, regardless of its position on the political spectrum, that wished to combat the rise of communism in the USSR.
Like other clerical fascist movements of the time, the Iron Guard was vividly anti-Semitic, promoting the idea that "Rabbinical aggression against the Christian world" in "unexpected 'protean forms': Freemasonry, Freudianism, homosexuality, atheism, Marxism, Bolshevism, the civil war in Spain," were undermining society

Constantin Iordachi, "Charisma, Religion, and Ideology: Romania's Interwar Legion of the Archangel Michael", in John R. Lampe, Mark Mazower (eds.), Ideologies and National Identities: The Case of Twentieth-century Southeastern Europe, Central European University Press, Budapest, 2004
Fascism (Oxford Readers) edited by Roger Griffin, Part III, A., xi. "Romania", pg 219-222 (Oxford University Press, 1995, ISBN 0-19-289249-5).

I also never said that the KKK was a Christian church in itself...but they all (or most I guess...I've never conversed with a KKK member), were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists, they formed a group and then killed a lot of people. If you want some proof of that, then I guess go talk to one of the nutty bastards. Better yet, talk to this a-hole. http://www.adl.org/backgrounders/american_knights_kkk.asp

As for the People's Temple...yes, they were a cult, but you're freaking delusional if you don't think they weren't Christian based. Jim Jones was a student pastor at a Methodist church before he left because they wouldn't allow blacks in the congregation. Heck, at one point the cult was called The Peoples Temple Christian Church Full Gospel. I don't know where you got the idea that just because he was a lunatic who formed his own lunatic church that it wasn't rooted in Christianity. It wasn't until close to the end of it all that he started denouncing traditional Christianity and parts of the Bible...but by that time he was basically preaching socialism as a religion and other nutty crap like that. He still preached about God though, be sure of that.

As far as attacks against abortion clinics and doctors, don't fool yourself into thinking that the people doing those things aren't linked to churches or Christian groups that promote that kind of extreme violence. Hey, you should check out Army of God's website while you're at it...a lovely bunch of non-violent Christians they must be right? http://www.armyofgod.com/

I apologize for not having the exact number of people killed by these good "Christian" folks, but I think it would be somewhat hard to find an exact detailed list. It's not crazy to think that over the decades the number has reached in the thousands.

You didn't touch on the fact that the RNU and Lord's Resistance Army are real groups that are really killing people. If you need "proof" of that too, here ya go.

LRA attacks...just a couple, If you want even more examples...look them up yourself.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7802804.stm
http://allafrica.com/stories/200812310002.html

But LRA leader Mr Kony remains as elusive as he was when the conflict began more than two decades ago.
His long and brutal rebellion against the Ugandan government has left tens of thousands of people dead, driven some two million people from their homes and destabilised a swathe of central Africa.
Last year, the LRA leader refused to sign a final peace deal thrashed out at two years of talks in neighbouring South Sudan - prompting the Ugandan military to lead the latest offensive.
Mr Kony insists that the International Criminal Court withdraw arrest warrants against him and some of his closest allies, before he will sign the deal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7926173.stm


Fighters from the notorious Lord's Resistance Army raided several villages in a remote part of north-eastern DR Congo, killing and abducting children.
Human Rights Watch says this is one of the worst massacres carried out by the LRA, whose fighters roam across several countries after spreading from Uganda. The rebel leaders initially claimed to be fighting to install a theocracy in Uganda based on the Biblical Ten Commandments, but they now sow terror in Sudan and Central African Republic, as well as DR Congo. In the latest attack, the rebels hacked to death villagers and made others carry looted goods. Some 250 people were abducted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8587305.stm

RNU

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/mosc-n15.shtml
http://www.albionmonitor.com/0204a/copyright/russianskinhead.html

I know that the RNU is more of a neo-nazi movement...but they're Christians attacking non-Christians and foreigners. They are very right wing and very much support the Russian Orthodox Church. Here's a good paper on Ultra-nationalist Russian movements. Not much said about religion I suppose, but many of these attacks occur based on religious aspects.
http://www.panorama.ru/works/patr/bp/finre.html

And as far as committing atrocities for hundreds of years...have you ever heard of the Inquisitions? The Crusades? Really? I don't have a death count for you or anything, but I'm going out on a limb here and saying it was a lot.

You can call me ignorant all you want, but I'm not the one sitting here denouncing one religions fanatics while turning a blind eye to Christianity's fanatics (worldwide). If I'm the ignorant one, I suppose I'd rather keep it that way.

Also, before you go on to say that these Christian based extremist groups are more political than anything blah, blah, blah, I'd like to point out to you that religion and politics have gone hand in hand since man thought up the concept of religion. Always has been that way, always will be that way.

7SteelGal43
06-19-2010, 10:30 AM
Well I can’t argue with any of that, SCMom. I wish man, who falls short of God and Christlilkeness, had not done these unspeakable atrocities in His name, or that others had not committed terrorism in their god’s name. Personally, I think the real problem is people using ‘organized religion’ as a means of justifying their own prejudices and hatred. Some may have declared they were ‘doing God’s work’ when they committed heinous acts, but as a Christian, I can assure you they were not.

As for the original topic, with me, it’s not even a religious thing. It would simply be a slap in the face to have a Mosque anywhere close to where the WTCs once stood.

silver & black
06-19-2010, 10:47 AM
Well I can’t argue with any of that, SCMom. I wish man, who falls short of God and Christlilkeness, had not done these unspeakable atrocities in His name, or that others had not committed terrorism in their god’s name. Personally, I think the real problem is people using ‘organized religion’ as a means of justifying their own prejudices and hatred. Some may have declared they were ‘doing God’s work’ when they committed heinous acts, but as a Christian, I can assure you they were not.

As for the original topic, with me, it’s not even a religious thing. It would simply be a slap in the face to have a Mosque anywhere close to where the WTCs once stood.

:drink:

SteelCityMom
06-19-2010, 11:24 AM
Well I can’t argue with any of that, SCMom. I wish man, who falls short of God and Christlilkeness, had not done these unspeakable atrocities in His name, or that others had not committed terrorism in their god’s name. Personally, I think the real problem is people using ‘organized religion’ as a means of justifying their own prejudices and hatred. Some may have declared they were ‘doing God’s work’ when they committed heinous acts, but as a Christian, I can assure you they were not.

As for the original topic, with me, it’s not even a religious thing. It would simply be a slap in the face to have a Mosque anywhere close to where the WTCs once stood.

I'm with you on the first part, and understand you're opinion on the second (though it doesn't bother me as much as some). I know and have known a lot of good Christians, Jews, atheists, Muslims, Wiccans etc, etc...and it's a shame that anyone from any religion would use their faith in whatever god(s) as a weapon. But it's part of human nature unfortunately.

No matter what, hopefully all of us on differing sides of the argument can agree on that.

Vincent
06-19-2010, 04:40 PM
First, let me say that I engage in these discussions because I like to compare views. And I like to “stress test” my own views. Inevitably I learn something. It’s a purely selfish pursuit, I confess. But what Internet banter isn’t? With that said…

You’re all over the place Mom. You’ve gone from saying…


The holocaust (which was partly a Christian movement against Jews and Catholics amongst other religious factions).

to…


Sorry that you can't face the reality that there are crazy Christians willing to die for their faith like Islamic extremists.

A “Christian movement“?? The holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity except that Christians were rounded up with Jews and systematically murdered. Whether or not you intended to make that statement, and I doubt that you did, it attempted to make Christianity at least in part responsible for the democide of 20 million people for the purpose of equating Christianity with islam. Nothing could be further from the truth.


I don't think I need to tell you how many people were killed then because they weren't Christians or didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs. He used a lot of Christian propaganda to sway public opinion.

That was deeply offensive, but attributable to colossal ignorance.


And I don't blame the holocaust on Christianity. I said Jews and other Christians who didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs were murdered and that he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion. So, take from that what you want.

Whether or not you blame the holocaust on Christianity, you made the statements. Then you tried to moderate your original statement by claiming that hitler “used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion”. You say these things. They’re nonsense. Back them up.

Yes, some Christians are willing to lay down their lives. For their Lord. For their brethren. But not for political ends. That is solely the province of muslim extremism. In Christianity there is no promise of anything other than forgiveness and eternal life with the Lord. Conquest, politics, and the affairs of man aren’t on the radar.

There are differences between being a Christian and being something else entirely but from a Christian denominational background. Following your logic we could reasonably call Uncle Joe a “Christian” because he was a seminary student prior to his man crush on Mrs. Lenin’s baby boy Vlad. History, anybody’s history, tells us that the opposite is true. Alois Schicklgruber’s little Adolf was baptized a Roman catholic. Perhaps that was the basis of your assertion that the “holocaust was a Christian movement”. Yet you correctly note that many Catholics were victims of the “movement”. If you’re unable to make the differentiation between Christians and those that came from “Christian” backgrounds, you shouldn’t attempt to draw analogies between Christianity and islam and it’s extreme elements. The two don’t coincide. Alois Schicklgruber, BTW, was Jewish. That’s why Jews referred to Dolf as “Herr Schicklgruber”. Those Jews were such a stitch!

I’ve always differentiated one from the other by behavior. The “advertizing” is always wanting. The Christians I’ve known are servants, regardless of their station. They say and do little to reveal self interest. They’re quick to give of themselves and their resources without condition or agenda. I won’t say that that behavior is necessarily exclusive to Christians, but it is the common denominator in Christians I have known.

My parents rented an apartment from the Greenbergs when I was born. The Greenbergs gave us my crib and furnishings because that is who they were. No fanfare. No agenda. Just “We want this for you”. I have seen that in as many Jews as I’ve seen regrettable behavior in “Christians”. In any event, the behavior is the differentiator, and that’s how I tell the Sneetches apart.


You can denounce the National Liberation Front of Tripura all you want because I got some of the info off of wiki (because I wasn't trying to spend my day citing examples), but they are a real terrorist organization who has committed horrible act...here you go. http://www.christianaggression.org/features_nlft.php

I have worked in India and have friends in that part of India but wasn’t aware of these people, so thanks.

The site you reference here is clearly ideology driven and by all indications, seeks to slander Christianity. To wit…

“The Baptist Church of Tripura was initially set up by Missionaries from New Zealand in the 1940’s. Despite their efforts, even until 1980, only a few thousand people in Tripura had converted to Christianity. Realizing this, the Church used one of its most efficient and time-tested weapons of evangelization - creating racial and ethnic divide among the people. In the aftermath of one of the worst ethnic riots, engineered by the Church the NLFT was born in 1989 -- but not without the midwife role of the Baptist Church. From its very inception, the NLFT has been advancing the cause of Christianity through armed compulsion. Every trace of indigenous culture and religion is being eliminated through violent means. Every resisting group is made to bleed its way to extinction.

The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is heavily funded by many Baptist Churches. Just a year before the Baptist Church assisted the foundation of the NLFT, they called for Christians to target the “millions of Hindus and Jews lost in the darkness” of their respective faiths. The NLFT is basically a violent muscle arm of the church and its missionaries.

Since the foundation of the NLFT, the Baptist Church has been supporting this violent campaign by providing funding and arms for the group.”.

Interest piqued, I looked for corroborating information. All I could find was at http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers16%5Cpaper1564.html

“Tripura, a northeastern Indian state has been in the grip of insurgency for over two decades now. But the tribal militants who initially took up arms to oppose the dominance of outsiders later became devoid of any ideology. The rank and file of militant organizations is now getting increasingly disenchanted as their leaders maintain double standards within the outfit.” No mention in the article of “Baptists” or “missionaries”.

Regardless of the accounts, the NLFT’s behavior readily separates them from any “Christian” activity I’ve ever heard of. And the contrast between the two accounts would seem to betray one as, well, bull@#$%.


Maybe YOU need to do some reading on the Iron Guard and Lancieri, because what I posted is 100% true. Start with Background and Precursors to the Holocaust...there's some very good information in there about how the Lancieri were attached to the National-Christian Defense League and the National Christian Party.

Before I go down this alley, I draw your attention to the scads of “Christian” political parties throughout the world. Referencing McEncyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_democratic_parties , it’s a name used much like “democratic”, and means little more in their politics. If I’m to infer anything from this exchange of views, perhaps its that Christians should seek to curtail the use of their name, as it leads to misrepresentations. But I digress.

See next post due to length.

Vincent
06-19-2010, 04:40 PM
Further to the previous...

“Background and Precursors to the Holocaust”. Good find. I’ll read that with interest.

“The roots of Romanian antisemitism are intertwined with the origins of the modern Romanian state and the emergence of the rich national cultural tradition that accompanied unification of the principalities, independence, and the creation of Greater Romania. The antisemitism that manifested itself in Romania between the two world wars grew directly from seeds sewn at the major turning points of the country’s development starting in the mid-nineteenth century. For reasons that may have differed from person to person or group to group, strong antisemitic currents were present in various forms and with varying intensity in the political, cultural and spiritual life of Romanian society for most of the century that preceded the accession to power of the National Christian Party in 1937, the installation of the Royal Dictatorship in 1938, and the Antonescu-Iron Guard National Legionary State in 1940—that is, for most of the century that culminated in the Holocaust.”

Blah, blah, blah…

“Nichifor Crainic (1889-1972) was another theoretician of religion whose work had an important influence on Cuza and on the younger generation that would assume the radical antisemitic banner in the interwar period. Crainic was Professor at the Faculty of Theology, University of Bucharest, which became a hotbed of antisemitism among university students. Crainic advocated creation of a Romanian spirit that was “antisemitic in theory and antisemitic in practice.” He applied his theological and rhetorical skills to breaking the Judeo-Christian relationship by arguing that the Old Testament was not Jewish, that Jesus had not been Jewish, and that the Talmud, which he saw as the incarnation of modern Jewry, was, first and foremost, a weapon to combat the Christian Gospel and to destroy Christians.

Crainic’s influence on his generation was substantial, as he was able to tap into the appeal of the mysticism and nationalism of Romanian Orthodox Christianity and use it to sway intellectual, student, and ordinary Christian citizen alike in favor of the racist, antisemitic movements that he saw as essential to secure the existence of Romania and the Romanian nation.”

Well, there you have it. Aside from the “National Christian Party”, the term isn’t used in the document except in relation to the warped theology that “Jesus wasn’t Jewish”, and similar nonsense. Baptists and missionaries are absent as well.

If you like these guys, you’ll love the Mufti of Jerusalem, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, and his muslim Waffen SS divisions that operated in Yugoslavia. Wait a second! Christians and muslims persecuting Jews? And what about those Serbs going all holocaustal on the poor Bosnian muslims. I’ll bet they’re “Christians” too.


I also never said that the KKK was a Christian church in itself

No, you didn’t. Nor did I say that you did. What I said was “The KKK had zero, nil, nada to do with any church or Christianity.” What you said was…


I'd be willing to say that at least 3,000 people have been killed by various Christian extremist groups...just not all at once. This includes all KKK attacks over the decades, neo-nazi's doing "God's" work, anti-abortion attacks on clinics, patients and doctors, Jim Jones and other Christian cults of the like...amongst others.


...but they all (or most I guess...I've never conversed with a KKK member), were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists, they formed a group and then killed a lot of people. If you want some proof of that, then I guess go talk to one of the nutty bastards. Better yet, talk to this a-hole.

“I've never conversed with a KKK member”, but “they all (or most I guess) were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists…”. I have never talked to a Martian, but I’m absolutely certain they’re all green.


As for the People's Temple...yes, they were a cult, but you're freaking delusional if you don't think they weren't Christian based. Jim Jones was a student pastor at a Methodist church before he left because they wouldn't allow blacks in the congregation. Heck, at one point the cult was called The Peoples Temple Christian Church Full Gospel. I don't know where you got the idea that just because he was a lunatic who formed his own lunatic church that it wasn't rooted in Christianity.

For me, it was the “lunatic” part. Again, I used to work a few blocks down Geary Blvd from said lunatics. Knew them well.

Africa? I think “lunatic” is the operable word there as well. Was that racist of me?

The Crusades? You may recall that the Crusades were launched to take Jerusalem back from the muslims. Recorded history frames them as the offenders, a theme still with us.

The inquisition, or more correctly inquisitions? The terms “Christian” and “Catholic” don’t always coincide, but I will defer to any Catholics that may want to comment.


Also, before you go on to say that these Christian based extremist groups are more political than anything blah, blah, blah, I'd like to point out to you that religion and politics have gone hand in hand since man thought up the concept of religion. Always has been that way, always will be that way.

I’ll see your “blah, blah, blah”, and raise you a “nanny nanny boo-boo”.

I hate politics with a passion. I intensely dislike politicians. But politics exist in anything people are involved in, including families, neighborhoods, schools, churches, blah, blah, blah. I told our sons from the time they could understand “If three people are involved, there are politics. Master the politics and you master the situation.”.

But back to the original point of the thread, which is the poignant message of the video. Ground Zero exists because of islam. Put another way, if there was no islam, there would be no Ground Zero. Regardless of your ideology or political disposition, I would hope you could make that behavioral distinction. muslims have no business building anything remotely representing islam anywhere near Ground Zero. And shame on us if we allow them to.

Is that statement suggesting the ban of islam? No, but if history teaches us anything, that is probably a consideration.

tony hipchest
06-19-2010, 04:55 PM
maybe they can build the mosque in jersey, near that huge dump where they hauled all the remains of the twin towers.

but then that would be wrong too.

while i am against any mosque being built near the twin tower site, it is a free country, and he who has the most money to buy the land can do whatever they want with it in our capitalistic country.

plus there will be those who will bitch about a mosque built next to a dump, along with those who dont want a mosque built in our country altogether.

MasterOfPuppets
06-19-2010, 05:18 PM
there's one distinction between political wacko's that hide behind a religion, and religious wacko's that hide behind politics ... the religious wacko's have no problem blowing themselves up to get their point across....http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-psyboom.gif...

SteelCityMom
06-19-2010, 06:40 PM
Vincent, I respect you're opinion...but by some of the tone of your posts, you either don't respect mine or don't think I hold the intelligence to back mine up with loads of facts in a 20-30 minute internet search.

All I can say to you though is it's extremely ignorant to think that the majority of people involved in these various groups aren't Christians, or at least don't think of themselves that way. And they have no qualms whatsoever over killing people who they think are not like them or go against God. I also in no way was attempting to lump these lunatics with everyday Christians who lead good lives. That would be too much like saying all muslims are evil because they have Islamic beliefs...which is one of the points I was arguing against by citing examples of Christian extremists.

And a word to the whole holocaust part of the debate. No offense was meant by anything I said, I'm sorry if you took it that way. I know Hitler himself was, by his own words, anti-Christian...but he never made this publicly known until towards the end of his life. Hitler himself though was a master of propaganda, and a lot of it was aimed at swaying the opinions of Christians to his way of thinking. I don't know where you get the idea that stating this is somehow offensive. It just happened...there were a lot of Christians (not all by any means) who bought into his anti-semetic tirades. Here's a good article I found on the subject. I don't have a lot of time to find more right now, but I'm sure they're out there.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/a/NaziChristian.htm

I like you enjoy the argument and enjoy learning more about opposing opinions (along with my own). If I have time tomorrow, I'll look more into answering some of what you've questioned.

SteelCityMom
06-19-2010, 06:56 PM
Whether or not you blame the holocaust on Christianity, you made the statements. Then you tried to moderate your original statement by claiming that hitler “used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion”. You say these things. They’re nonsense. Back them up.

To go with the article in my previous post, I'll give you a direct quote from Hitler himself.


n a speech from April 12, 1922 and published in his book My New Order, Adolf Hitler explains his perspective on Jesus Christ:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/a/HitlerJesus.htm

Again, the rest I will get to at a later time if you wish...skimming over what you wrote I'm intrigued to do more searching.

ALLD
06-19-2010, 07:43 PM
One arguement can be made is that when the Serbs began exterminating muslims, NATO- a mostly Christian organization, stepped in and put a stop to it. At the time I was wondering why we were bombing them and not the muslims. One reason is that we did not need a murdering tyrant especially from the Balkans, terrorizing any ethnic group for fear of starting up WWI all over again. It would be interesting to see domestic muslims being more vocal in their opposition to suicide bombing and terrorist organizations.

SteelCityMom
06-19-2010, 09:44 PM
A “Christian movement“?? The holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity except that Christians were rounded up with Jews and systematically murdered. Whether or not you intended to make that statement, and I doubt that you did, it attempted to make Christianity at least in part responsible for the democide of 20 million people for the purpose of equating Christianity with islam. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Whether or not you blame the holocaust on Christianity, you made the statements. Then you tried to moderate your original statement by claiming that hitler “used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion”. You say these things. They’re nonsense. Back them up.

Christian movement was a poor choice of words, I'll admit, but don't say I tried to moderate my original statement, when both of my statements included "he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion" (which he did...I found A LOT more examples, from his own mouth and from churches that supported his cause). I won't post the full text of these...there's way, way too much. I'll just list the links that have exact quotes.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/HitlerNazisAtheismSecularism.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/NaziChristiansGermany.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligionReligious.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligiousFaith.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm

There's just so many!


That was deeply offensive, but attributable to colossal ignorance.

Again, apologies if anything offended you....but colossal ignorance it is not. There's plenty of proof on paper and tape that Hitler and the Nazi's used religious (specifically Christian) propaganda. Also, when I brought up that many Christians were killed as well, I brought it up in context that they didn't go along with his insane beliefs for a reason. They weren't killed because they were Christians, they were killed because they opposed what Hitler was doing. Big difference.


Yes, some Christians are willing to lay down their lives. For their Lord. For their brethren. But not for political ends. That is solely the province of muslim extremism. In Christianity there is no promise of anything other than forgiveness and eternal life with the Lord. Conquest, politics, and the affairs of man aren’t on the radar.

In a way, you are correct...more often than not you don't hear about a Christian taking his own life along with many others for a political end. Some will however (by the number of examples I've listed) kill others (sometimes many others) either for political ends or because they truly believe that is what God and Jesus want them to do. Again, I really think it's crazy to feel that muslim extremists are the only ones in history who have gone out and killed people in the name of their religion.


If you’re unable to make the differentiation between Christians and those that came from “Christian” backgrounds, you shouldn’t attempt to draw analogies between Christianity and islam and it’s extreme elements.

I am able to make the distinction between the two. I think I've cited enough examples to rationally make that analogy.



I’ve always differentiated one from the other by behavior. The “advertizing” is always wanting. The Christians I’ve known are servants, regardless of their station. They say and do little to reveal self interest. They’re quick to give of themselves and their resources without condition or agenda. I won’t say that that behavior is necessarily exclusive to Christians, but it is the common denominator in Christians I have known.

Of course this is true. It's true for me as well. And unless you've mingled with a large number of muslims over your lifetime, you have to basis to claim the opposite of them. News stories don't count as mingling by the way. There's good and bad people in all races, creeds, religions and walks of life.



The site you reference here is clearly ideology driven and by all indications, seeks to slander Christianity.

Interest piqued, I looked for corroborating information. All I could find was at http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers16%5Cpaper1564.html

You didn't look hard enough.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/nlft.htm
http://www.mapsofindia.com/tripura/government/national-liberation-front.html


INTERFERENCE IN RELIGIOUS ACTIVITIES :-
Tripura Tribals were, generally, Hindus. From the ancient times, tribal of Tripura worshipped the idols of Hindu Gods/Goddesses. Some militants are making a conscious attempt to de-link the tribals from the Hindu cultural milieu aligning it with the non-tribal culture. The militants believe that undermining the non-tribal influence is the surest way to give the tribals a new identity. Abhorrence of Hindu connection among the section of the new generation of tribal youths is the outcome of this concerted effort by the militants having faith in Christianity. Their such efforts have led to an inner conflict among the tribal populace as one extremist group has been forcing Christianity on tribal having faith not only in Hinduism but also in Buddhism and their traditional convictions. Such activities of the extremists have made the common tribal hostile to these extremist groups.




http://tripurapolice.nic.in/amilitancy.htm#b9


National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is an active terrorist organization. However, NLFT is constantly in flux and has given rise to several splinter groups. In 2001, NLFT split into two main factions, one led by Nayanbasi Jamatiya and the other by Biswamohan Debbarma. According to confisicated records of NLFT, the split was caused by internal bickering among senior leaders, misappropriation of funds by certain senior NLFT members, and disagreement over the forcible conversion of NLFT members to Chrisitainty. According to at least one report, approximately 90 percent of senior NLFT members are Christians. Despite the internal fighting and regardless of future splintering of NLFT, the group remains an active terrorist threat in the Tripura state of India.


http://www.start.umd.edu/start/data/tops/terrorist_organization_profile.asp?id=3644


The government in India's north-eastern state of Tripura says it has evidence that the state's Baptist Church is involved in backing separatist rebels.Tripura Chief Minister Manik Sarkar said state police had uncovered details of the alleged link after questioning a church leader.Nagmanlal Halam, secretary of the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura, was arrested late on Monday with a large quantity of explosives.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/717775.stm


Rebels in India's north-eastern state of Tripura are making pornographic films to raise money for their separatist campaign, officials say.The information has come from surrendered guerrillas of the National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT), according to police.They say the rebels are forcing captured tribal women, and some men, to take part in the films.The films are then dubbed to be sold in India and neighbouring countries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4190570.stm

SteelCityMom
06-19-2010, 10:06 PM
Well, there you have it. Aside from the “National Christian Party”, the term isn’t used in the document except in relation to the warped theology that “Jesus wasn’t Jewish”, and similar nonsense. Baptists and missionaries are absent as well.

They were a Christian based party that preached antisemitism and were involved in the holocaust in Romania. I don't know what else to tell you.


If you like these guys, you’ll love the Mufti of Jerusalem, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, and his muslim Waffen SS divisions that operated in Yugoslavia. Wait a second! Christians and muslims persecuting Jews? And what about those Serbs going all holocaustal on the poor Bosnian muslims. I’ll bet they’re “Christians” too.

Both always did like persecuting the other...doesn't surprise me that there are instances where they "team up".


“I've never conversed with a KKK member”, but “they all (or most I guess) were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists…”. I have never talked to a Martian, but I’m absolutely certain they’re all green.

This doesn't really speak to any point I made about KKK members being Christian. Again, I'm guessing some might not have been, but from everything I've ever read, much of the groups movement was based in a religious belief that blacks, jews and other races were inferior. Maybe it was them burning numerous crosses that first gave it away for me. I'm not sure.


For me, it was the “lunatic” part. Again, I used to work a few blocks down Geary Blvd from said lunatics. Knew them well.

Africa? I think “lunatic” is the operable word there as well. Was that racist of me?

Yeah they're lunatics. Lunatics who thought/think they are doing God's will.


The Crusades? You may recall that the Crusades were launched to take Jerusalem back from the muslims. Recorded history frames them as the offenders, a theme still with us.

Yes of course I know why the Crusades were launched. I suppose I should have been a little more specific...because you see, not every one of the Crusades was launched against "the infidels". There was that pesky 4th Crusade where the "Christian" Crusaders decided to ditch their attempt at invading Egypt (Muslim land) and went ahead and destroyed not one, but two Christian cities...for money and power. One of them was Constantinople. Perhaps you've heard of it? It was eventually overrun by Turks a couple hundred years later. Lot of people killed and tortured there though. Great "Christian" tragedy.


The great historian of the Crusades, Sir Steven Runciman, wrote that the sack of Constantinople is “unparalleled in history”.
“For nine centuries,” he goes on, “the great city had been the capital of Christian civilisation. It was filled with works of art that had survived from ancient Greece and with the masterpieces of its own exquisite craftsmen. The Venetians wherever they could seized treasures and carried them off. But the Frenchmen and Flemings were filled with a lust for destruction: they rushed in a howling mob down the streets and through the houses, snatching up everything that glittered and destroying whatever they could not carry, pausing only to murder or to rape, or to break open the wine-cellars. Neither monasteries nor churches nor libraries were spared. In St Sophia itself drunken soldiers could be seen tearing down the silken hangings and pulling the silver iconostasis to pieces, while sacred books and icons were trampled under foot. While they drank from the altar-vessels a prostitute sang a ribald French song on the Patriarch’s throne. Nuns were ravished in their convents. Palaces and hovels alike were wrecked. Wounded women and children lay dying in the streets. For three days the ghastly scenes continued until the huge and beautiful city was a shambles. Even after order was restored, citizens were tortured to make them reveal treasures they had hidden.
Steven Runciman, History of the Crusades, Penguin Books, Harmondsworth, 1965, vol 3, pp. 111-128.


The inquisition, or more correctly inquisitions? The terms “Christian” and “Catholic” don’t always coincide, but I will defer to any Catholics that may want to comment.


Yes, I know...there were 4 of them. Catholics killed a lot of Protestants and other Christian sects. Officially ended in 1908. Well, at least that's when they changed the name of the Congregation. They just stopped killing people. They still oversee Catholic doctrine to this day though.


But back to the original point of the thread, which is the poignant message of the video. Ground Zero exists because of islam. Put another way, if there was no islam, there would be no Ground Zero. Regardless of your ideology or political disposition, I would hope you could make that behavioral distinction. muslims have no business building anything remotely representing islam anywhere near Ground Zero. And shame on us if we allow them to.

Is that statement suggesting the ban of islam? No, but if history teaches us anything, that is probably a consideration.

Yes, I get that part...and I understand you're objection to it, I really do. I just don't agree with a broad based bashing of all muslims.

History has taught me a lot. One of the biggest lessons that I've learned is that religion (of any kind) will almost always get a lot of people killed one way or another.

Vincent
06-20-2010, 10:32 AM
Vincent, I respect you're opinion...but by some of the tone of your posts, you either don't respect mine or don't think I hold the intelligence to back mine up with loads of facts in a 20-30 minute internet search.
I respect your opinion as well Mom. I can be abrupt. No excuse. I apologize.


All I can say to you though is it's extremely ignorant to think that the majority of people involved in these various groups aren't Christians, or at least don't think of themselves that way. And they have no qualms whatsoever over killing people who they think are not like them or go against God. I also in no way was attempting to lump these lunatics with everyday Christians who lead good lives.
Can we agree that there are, as you say, “everyday Christians who lead good lives”, and folks that for myriad reasons wear the label of Christian and do the things they do independent of Christianity? To be a Christian is a state of heart, soul, and spirit. It is the surrender of sin, acceptance by faith of forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus, and the rebirth as a person that separates himself from sin and earnestly follows his Lord. That’s where that term that irritates people comes from – “born again Christian”. By outward appearances there is a change of behavior that separates actual Christians from the label. But it is the internal change that manifests itself over time that is the difference. It has its own language. It can’t be faked. The imposters stand out to the genuine.


That would be too much like saying all muslims are evil because they have Islamic beliefs...which is one of the points I was arguing against by citing examples of Christian extremists.

I don’t believe all muslims are evil. I’ve known too many, not least of which was the best man at my nephew’s wedding last month. I have said that rank and file muslims are victims of a bad religion that not only abuses those around them but pits muslims against muslims in brutal carnage. The evil exists in their leadership and the extreme elements that they recruit and cultivate.


I know Hitler himself was, by his own words, anti-Christian...but he never made this publicly known until towards the end of his life. Hitler himself though was a master of propaganda, and a lot of it was aimed at swaying the opinions of Christians to his way of thinking.

We can agree on that. He didn’t need to make that confession. His deeds spoke for themselves.


...there were a lot of Christians (not all by any means) who bought into his anti-semetic tirades. Here's a good article I found on the subject. http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/a/NaziChristian.htm

The second article displays his mastery of rhetoric but reveals his deception of “his Lord’s” character. Any Christian would immediately see that he doesn’t speak the language. That so many couldn’t be deceived led to their deaths in the camps.


"he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion" (which he did...I found A LOT more examples, from his own mouth and from churches that supported his cause). I won't post the full text of these...there's way, way too much. I'll just list the links that have exact quotes.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm
“The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession” You folks be “good Christians” and don’t confess your allegiance to anything but the party.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/HitlerNazisAtheismSecularism.htm
“All of Culture Must Serve Our Mission - 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!" Oh Lord, I have $50 on the Steelers by 7 and I need it bad.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/NaziChristiansGermany.htm
I have no apology to make for the Catholic church here. They can speak for themselves. The loyalty oath to hitler though, tips their hands.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligionReligious.htm
“Violence Must Have a Firm, Spiritual Base”. Yeah, I got yer ‘Christianity’ right here.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligiousFaith.htm
“Faith”. In what? Whom? Hollow sloganeering commensurate with “hope” and “change”.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.” The words of a deist, and false rhetoric at that.


There's just so many!

I don’t see a Christian word in any of it. Deceptive rhetoric, yes. Deism, yes. Again, the real Christians knew he was a deceiver, so they had to go. We were warned – “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” I think hitler was among the fakes, but by no means even a “false Christ”. Those days are yet to come. And its going to be u-u-u-u-uhg-lee!


Again, apologies if anything offended you....but colossal ignorance it is not. There's plenty of proof on paper and tape that Hitler and the Nazi's used religious (specifically Christian) propaganda. Also, when I brought up that many Christians were killed as well, I brought it up in context that they didn't go along with his insane beliefs for a reason. They weren't killed because they were Christians, they were killed because they opposed what Hitler was doing. Big difference.

Religious rhetoric. Not Christian by any means. And Christians wouldn’t be deceived by it for a minute. It raises serious questions about those that were.


In a way, you are correct...more often than not you don't hear about a Christian taking his own life along with many others for a political end. Some will however (by the number of examples I've listed) kill others (sometimes many others) either for political ends or because they truly believe that is what God and Jesus want them to do. Again, I really think it's crazy to feel that muslim extremists are the only ones in history who have gone out and killed people in the name of their religion.

We disagree here. Christians don’t harm or kill people. Wearers of a label do. I haven’t met a Christian that had it in his being to intentionally harm another. That’s one of the ways you can tell them apart from the pretenders. “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” There is no place to hide from those words.


There's good and bad people in all races, creeds, religions and walks of life.

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” A Christian will say “there but by the grace of God go I”.


You didn't look hard enough.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/nlft.htm
http://www.mapsofindia.com/tripura/government/national-liberation-front.html

Different sources disagree on the “Christian” reference. The one I cited this afternoon http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5C...paper1564.html didn’t make a religious connection, but did point out that the leadership were given to double standards. The label can’t hide. They’re bad actors, to be sure. No pun relative to their porn.


They were a Christian based party that preached antisemitism and were involved in the holocaust in Romania. I don't know what else to tell you.

They wore the label. Their behavior betrayed them as to what they were.

Continued in the next post...

Vincent
06-20-2010, 10:33 AM
This doesn't really speak to any point I made about KKK members being Christian. Again, I'm guessing some might not have been, but from everything I've ever read, much of the groups movement was based in a religious belief that blacks, jews and other races were inferior. Maybe it was them burning numerous crosses that first gave it away for me. I'm not sure.

A Christian would never ever burn a cross. Such an act is every bit as evil as the hakenkreuz. Christians don’t beat or lynch people. Racist barbarians do. The democrats own that history. You will not find a mindset of moral or racial superiority in a Christian, rather quite the opposite. Part of the miracle of salvation is the realization that He saved a wretch like you.


Yes of course I know why the Crusades were launched. I suppose I should have been a little more specific...because you see, not every one of the Crusades was launched against "the infidels".

We all mistakenly take wearers of crosses at face value. Ozzy wears a cross.
Were the Crusades God inspired acts of Christian men? The only real answer to that lies in the disposition of the hearts of those individuals that participated. In the aggregate it was “Christiandom v islam” in a best of 7 series for all the marbles.


Yes, I know...there were 4 of them. Catholics killed a lot of Protestants and other Christian sects. Officially ended in 1908. Well, at least that's when they changed the name of the Congregation. They just stopped killing people. They still oversee Catholic doctrine to this day though.

And then you have the Brits operating under the aegis of the church of England committing unholy carnage of their lowly neighbors the Scots, Irish, and Welsh. And on and on and on.

Again, the point of this thread was muslims building a mosque near Ground Zero and I defer to the wisdom of that lone Brit on the subject. The thread has evolved into a referendum on Christianity and that’s fine. I make no apology for the church and its sordid history. I am not “religious” by any stretch of the imagination. But I am a believer in the entirety of the Gospel of Jesus the Christ and try to live in accordance to it.


History has taught me a lot. One of the biggest lessons that I've learned is that religion (of any kind) will almost always get a lot of people killed one way or another.

The problem with “religion” is that it involves people. And people will be people regardless of the stripe they wear. Man's inhumanity to man seems to know no restraint or limit. That is why, in my limited capacity to navigate this life, I go by the behavior of people as the best indicator. "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.”.

SteelCityMom
06-20-2010, 02:31 PM
I think we see somewhat eye to eye on everything posted here, because I certainly don't outright disagree with anything you said in the last two posts. My main point in originally bringing these things up was in response to you saying (paraphrased here) that Islam was an evil religion that makes people do evil things...something along those lines.

I was really just trying to point to examples of people (whether they are false Christians or not) did horrible things in the past and today in the name of Christianity. Some have done it for political gain, others have done it because they truly feel they were doing God's work. Both are for very wrong reasons. Admittedly though, there's a good bit of text in the Bible that I can see where people might get the wrong idea and think that killing for God is justifiable...the same way that some of the text in the Qur'an can be misconstrued by Muslims (though I do understand the differences between what Jesus preached and what Mohammed preached...I still think some of it is taken out of context by people who want power).

Both the Qur'an and the Bible are vast, vague books, filled with poetry and contradictions. You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam or Christianity. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind. Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti-Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare.

NJarhead
06-29-2010, 06:54 PM
maybe they can build the mosque in jersey, near that huge dump where they hauled all the remains of the twin towers.

but then that would be wrong too.

while i am against any mosque being built near the twin tower site, it is a free country, and he who has the most money to buy the land can do whatever they want with it in our capitalistic country.

plus there will be those who will bitch about a mosque built next to a dump, along with those who dont want a mosque built in our country altogether.

That was Staten Island and don't you go volunteering my state for anything. :chuckle:

BigNastyDefense
06-29-2010, 09:02 PM
A mosque at the Twin Towers site would be a travesty IMHO, since those who destroyed them did it in the name of Islam. So I don't think it would be right, freedom of religion be damned in this case. If they want to build a Mosque in the NYC area, they can build it in Harlem or the Bronx.

NJarhead
06-29-2010, 09:09 PM
A mosque at the Twin Towers site would be a travesty IMHO, since those who destroyed them did it in the name of Islam. So I don't think it would be right, freedom of religion be damned in this case. If they want to build a Mosque in the NYC area, they can build it in Harlem or the Bronx.
It's actually several blocks away from the WTC site.

NJarhead
07-09-2010, 04:37 PM
I'm beginning to waiver on my "support" for this mosque. Maybe these folks are right after all.

June 16, 2010, New York, N.Y., – by El Marco

Americans Stand Up Against Radical Islam in New York – We Will Not Submit!

Not one major network sent a satellite truck or camera crew to this event. Without bloggers this newsworthy event would have remained unknown to the public and history

On Sunday, June 6th, a multi-ethnic, multi-racial coalition of Americans opposed to Islamic violence and intolerance rallied at the site of the World Trade Center in New York City.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0073.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0073.jpg)

9/11 families were joined by immigrants from India, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Africa, Iran and Europe to show opposition to the construction of a mega-mosque at Ground Zero. Others flew in from overseas to speak or just to share their particular ethnic communities experiences at the hands of Muslims.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0212.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0212.jpg)

These are parents and spouses of firefighters killed on 9/11. The rally took place just a minutes walk from Ladder 10 Firehouse, where their loved ones were stationed for duty that terrible day. Ladder 10 lost seven firefighters.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0282.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0282.jpg)

Crowd estimates ranged from 5,000 (NYPD) to 10,000. The crowd overflowed the police barrier enclosures that ran the full length of two city blocks. This photo shows the enclosure in front of the stage at the intersection of Liberty and Church Streets. The second enclosure ran the length of the next block and can be seen on the other side of the traffic lights.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0109.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0109.jpg)

Thousands of additional participants filled the treed area of Zuccotti Park.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0155z.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0155z.jpg)
Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller are the founders of STOP ISLAMIZATION OF AMERICA, which sponsored the rally. Ms. Geller is a citizen journalist and blogger who runs the human rights web site Atlas Shrugs (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/). Mr. Spencer is the author of several books on Islam and head of the influential web site Jihad watch (http://www.ksfo560.com/goout.asp?u=http://www.jihadwatch.com). Pamela Geller:

Ground Zero is a war memorial, Ground Zero is a burial ground. We are asking for sensitivity…It is unconscionable to build a shrine to the very ideology that inspired the jihadist attacks at Ground Zero, right there. We are asking the imam Rauf and Daisy Khan to be sensitive. For mutual respect and mutual understanding that is demanded of us every day.

There's a hair-trigger sensitivity in the Muslim world, you can't run the cartoons, you can't say Mohammed, this is offensive. This is an offensive mosque. To build a shrine, an Islamic flag of conquest on the sacred ground the cherished site, of a conquered land. This is historic, this is Islamic history. It's what they do. The St. Sofia in Turkey, the al-Quds, at the holiest Jewish site in Israel. Not here. This is where we take a stand. We must take a stand. We must say no.

I do not believe that the landmarks commission controlled by Mayor Bloomberg, is going to stop this mosque. It's not going to happen. Here's Omar Muhamedi, on his human rights council, a CAIR lawyer, who sued the airlines and the Jane and John Does that saw something and said something (http://www.meforum.org/1809/exposing-the-flying-imams)on those airplanes, if you remember. That's who's on his human rights commission. It ain't gonna happen with Bloomberg. We have to make it happen. You have to get involved. (Pamela Geller)

NJarhead
07-09-2010, 04:38 PM
Part II:



http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_01553.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_01553.jpg)

Police enclosure on left, with crowd flowing out of park on right. The new Tower 7 and World Trade Center site are in the background. The green tent, center, is located immediately behind the stage.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0210.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0210.jpg)

Port Authority and NYPD officers kept watch over the rally and were well aware of the need for heightened security at this event. One of their own Port Authority officers, WTC Sergeant Alan T. De Vona was on duty at the World Trade Center on 9/11, 2001, and was one of the first to help victims of the terrorist attack. He spoke these words to the SIOA rally:

It's almost nine years. I'm hoping that America is watching. I'm hoping that America is remembering. Because, make no mistake. September 11 was an act of war. And thank the military that has lost almost 5,000 troops from that day, defending us. I don't know what to say to jar America's memory. I want America to remember.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_00311.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_00311.jpg)




Port Authority Police and FDNY firefighters are seen here gathered beneath this banner.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0200.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0200.jpg)

The issues at stake will certainly affect the heart of American freedom, democracy, cultural values and tolerance. America is a tolerant country that allows for the free worship of all its citizens. But our tolerance has limits. Do we have to tolerate intolerant Islamic ideology and Muslims who preach intolerant Islam?

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_00732.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_00732.jpg)

Hindu human rights activists Narain Kataria, Prasad Yalamanchi and unidentified friend came from Mississippi and Chicago with banners and flyers highlighting the radical statements of imam Rauf and his jihadist roots.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0119.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0119.jpg)

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http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0057.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0057.jpg)

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Stephen Dyer and Gary Jules journalism students at York College, with Pamela Geller. Not one major network sent a satellite truck or camera crew to this event. Without bloggers this newsworthy event would have remained unknown to the public and history.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0068.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0068.jpg)

Pamela Geller is greeted by Hindu human rights activists Prasad Yalamanchi and Narain Kataria.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0184.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0184.jpg)

Bhupinder Singh Bhurji, Pamela Geller, and Robert Spencer. Singh Bhurji is the president of the NAMDHARI SIKH FOUNDATION. The foundation is a member of the Human Rights Coalition Against Radical Islam (HRCARI). HRCARI is a coalition of Hindus, Sikhs, Christians from Sudan, Egypt and Iraq, moderate Muslims and Jews — who are victims and targets of radical Islam around the globe. He said, at another rally:

Radical Islamists are killing people in India, trying to dominate that nation. And here too they come with violence against infidels. We are infidels united, standing together, brown, black and white, against this epoch's fascist movement. Radical Islam wants to dominate entire world. They want everyone to surrender. Islam radical or otherwise. They want to put the Islamic flag on White House.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_02051.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_02051.jpg)

Because of Islamic terrorism, America and the world have seen massive new security measures become a way of life. Anyone openly critical of Islam, or terrorist ideology, must surround themselves with security, or live in hiding. Those courageous enough to confront Islamism are criticized by the cowards and appeasers of the left who seek safety by supporting the enemy. Moderate Muslims were silent when Theo van Gogh was brutally murdered in Amsterdam, just as moderate Muslims in the United States are generally reluctant to speak out against violent Islam. Moderate Muslims also face great danger in speaking out.

Geller and Spencer will press on despite the danger. They hope to inspire Americans to stand up and say enough of political correctness and work to stem the galloping islamization of America and Europe.

http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0050.jpg (http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MG_0050.jpg)

Vincent
07-09-2010, 05:08 PM
Not one major network sent a satellite truck or camera crew to this event. Without bloggers this newsworthy event would have remained unknown to the public and history

That's the sad damn truth.

That we even have to point out the awful offense the notion of building a mosque in NYC is speaks to the state of decay this country is in. A mere 9 years after this atrocity was committed, we have a muslim in the White House, dozens of our soldiers murdered on our own base in Texas by another muslim wearing one of our uniforms, and the prospect of muslims building a conquest monument to 9-11. If we had reacted to Pearl Harbor this way, we'd all be japanese subjects, well at least the ones that didn't die in slave camps.

Robert Spencer, one of the luminaries of the event WarDen referenced, is a prolific writer on the subject. One of his books (http://www.amazon.com/Stealth-Jihad-Radical-Subverting-America/dp/1400157579) "Stealth Jihad" speaks to what the muslims are doing to subvert us, and his website (http://www.jihadwatch.org/) is a good source to stay abreast of stealth jihad in America.

Its time to wake up you people or it won't be long until its over.

Thank you WarDen for the excellent post!! You're a great American.

NJarhead
07-09-2010, 05:27 PM
That's the sad damn truth.

That we even have to point out the awful offense the notion of building a mosque in NYC is speaks to the state of decay this country is in. A mere 9 years after this atrocity was committed, we have a muslim in the White House, dozens of our soldiers murdered on our own base in Texas by another muslim wearing one of our uniforms, and the prospect of muslims building a conquest monument to 9-11. If we had reacted to Pearl Harbor this way, we'd all be japanese subjects, well at least the ones that didn't die in slave camps.

Robert Spencer, one of the luminaries of the event WarDen referenced, is a prolific writer on the subject. One of his books (http://www.amazon.com/Stealth-Jihad-Radical-Subverting-America/dp/1400157579) "Stealth Jihad" speaks to what the muslims are doing to subvert us, and his website (http://www.jihadwatch.org/) is a good source to stay abreast of stealth jihad in America.

Its time to wake up you people or it won't be long until its over.

Thank you WarDen for the excellent post!! You're a great American.

Thank you Vincent. Does this mean you'll stop arguing with me? :chuckle:

:drink:

Vincent
07-09-2010, 06:57 PM
Does this mean you'll stop arguing with me?

Have we met?

venom
08-04-2010, 03:07 PM
A Christian Nation cannot put up a Christmas scene of the baby Jesus in a public place, but the Muslims can stop normal traffic every Friday afternoon by worshiping in the streets... Something is happening in America that is reminiscent of what is happening in Europe. This is Political Correctness gone crazy...

This is an accurate picture of every Friday afternoon in several locations
throughout NYC where there are mosques with a large number of Muslims
that cannot fit into the mosque - They fill the surrounding streets, facing east for a couple of hours between about 2 & 4 p.m. - Besides this one at 42nd St & Madison Ave, there is another, even larger group, at 94th St & 3rd Ave, etc.- Also, I presume, you are aware of the dispute over building another "high rise" Mosque a few blocks from "ground zero" - With regard to that one, the "Imam" refuses to disclose where the $110 million dollars to build it is coming from and there is a lawsuit filed to force disclosure of that information - Just some facts FYI - But then, you have your own troubles with the "immigration" problem and the new AZ law - November can't come soon enough!!
This is in New York City on Madison Avenue, not in France ,the Middle East, Yemen or Kenya.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/spock-/1.jpg

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/spock-/2.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/spock-/?action=view&current=2.jpg)

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/spock-/3.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/spock-/?action=view&current=3.jpg)

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/spock-/4.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/albums/zz184/spock-/?action=view&current=4.jpg)

SteelersinCA
08-04-2010, 03:31 PM
This shit is unreal. Can you imagine if a Christian church spilled out into the streets every Sunday? People would go ape shit.

st33lersguy
08-04-2010, 04:06 PM
This politically correct b.s., and this dishonor of the victims of 9-11 by the leftwing elite and the imam is shameful, despicable, and shows what kind of people the politically correct leftwing elite really are. They could have built this mosque in any other vacant place. The imam building it next to ground zero is a slap in the face and I am ashamed at whoever will let this pass

SteelersinCA
08-04-2010, 04:35 PM
Isn't Bloomberg a repub?

Shoes
08-04-2010, 04:49 PM
I know my Kurdish Peshmerga (Muslim) friends from Iran/Iraq would have laid down their lives for me, something maybe my family wouldn't do.....I also know they wouldn't want a Mosque @ Ground Zero.

Shoes
08-04-2010, 06:41 PM
Isn't Bloomberg a repub?

It depends on which day you ask CA :chuckle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bloomberg

NJarhead
08-04-2010, 06:53 PM
Isn't Bloomberg a repub?
Nope. He's a Dem.

The Patriot
08-04-2010, 07:07 PM
Now that I'm hearing the details, I'm starting to have second thoughts. I thought they were building some modest structure for Muslim New Yorkers, not a giant monolith.

There is nothing we can really do though. If you let the Catholic Church build a cathedral in New York, and this still is a free country, then forbidding Muslims from building a Mosque is kind of a hypocrisy.

venom
08-04-2010, 07:23 PM
Isn't Bloomberg a repub?

Im from NYC - hes a Dem turned Rep to run for Mayor . Then said the Mayor should serve ONLY 2 TERMS and then flip flopped again and fought for running for 3 terms.

Shoes
08-04-2010, 08:03 PM
Now that I'm hearing the details, I'm starting to have second thoughts. I thought they were building some modest structure for Muslim New Yorkers, not a giant monolith.

There is nothing we can really do though. If you let the Catholic Church build a cathedral in New York, and this still is a free country, then forbidding Muslims from building a Mosque is kind of a hypocrisy.

A Mosque at ground zero would be icing on ben ladens cake...and only advance the radical side of Islam. I would not worry about being a hypocrite when I know they would cut my throat without a second thought.

The Patriot
08-04-2010, 11:01 PM
A Mosque at ground zero would be icing on ben ladens cake...and only advance the radical side of Islam. I would not worry about being a hypocrite when I know they would cut my throat without a second thought.

Most muslims aren't terrorists. When you hear about 50 Iraqis being killed in Baghdad by a car bomb, remember they are probably muslims. Not all muslims would want to build a Mosque at ground zero either, so you can probably scrutinize this particular group of muslims, but muslims as a whole are just a different population of the globe.

tony hipchest
08-04-2010, 11:12 PM
what gets me the most about the whole situation is the symbolism. if the 9-11 attacks never happened, americans really couldnt care less about a giant mosqu going up... HOWEVER,

towers come down. monolith mosque goes up. the symbolism to the rest of the world is replacing an icon of capitalism, with an icon of islam. since it looks like noone can stop this (due to the U.S. being a FREE country) i only wish it could be delayed until the WTC site is developed and complete.

but this begs the question. how do we disallow muslims to purchase this land for their site? property value in downtown NYC isnt cheap. who the hell is the free enterprize capitalist who sold them the site in the first place? did they put making a buck and turning a profit ahead of nationalism and being a patriot?

if i owned the land, i would turn it into a junkyard, before i sold it for that purpose. then again, didnt we sell the empire state building to the chinese?

JonM229
08-04-2010, 11:25 PM
but this begs the question. how do we disallow muslims to purchase this land for their site? property value in downtown NYC isnt cheap. who the hell is the free enterprize capitalist who sold them the site in the first place? did they put making a buck and turning a profit ahead of nationalism and being a patriot?

Where's your "keep your government hands off of my free trade" now?

tony hipchest
08-04-2010, 11:35 PM
Where's your "keep your government hands off of my free trade" now?i would think many on the right would be vehemently supporting the sellers right to sell to whomever he pleased, especially when the great writers of our constitution specified a separation of church and state.

perhaps they feel it is not "across the board" and should be handled "case by case" (which would take a ton of BIG govt oversight and rulings).

Wallace108
08-04-2010, 11:53 PM
i would think many on the right would be vehemently supporting the sellers right to sell to whomever he pleased, especially when the great writers of our constitution specified a separation of church and state.

Separation of church and state? What's that? I don't recall reading that in the Constitution. :wink02:

JonM229
08-04-2010, 11:59 PM
Thomas Jefferson wrote the following to a group of Baptists in Connecticut who were afraid of being persecuted by the state government, which was overwhemingly Congregationalist (Puritan):

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

SteelCityMan786
08-05-2010, 12:17 AM
Thomas Jefferson wrote the following to a group of Baptists in Connecticut who were afraid of being persecuted by the state government, which was overwhemingly Congregationalist (Puritan):

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

Still though it doesn't mean it's in our constitution. It's no where to be found. The wall was to prevent the govt. from getting involved with religious affairs, not keeping religious values out of govt.

tony hipchest
08-05-2010, 12:21 AM
Still though it doesn't mean it's in our constitution. It's no where to be found. The wall was to prevent the govt. from getting involved with religious affairs, not keeping religious values out of govt.i didnt say it was in our constitution, thank you.

wallace was fucking around.

now... back on topic.

Wallace108
08-05-2010, 12:24 AM
i didnt say it was in our constitution, thank you.

wallace was fucking around.

now... back on topic.

:pop2:

Mattsme
08-05-2010, 12:30 AM
At worst, this is yet another sign of America's perceived weakness. And another step in the supposed "muslimification" (totally made that up) that's already happened in Europe.

At best, it's the symbolism as mentioned above, and it's in extremely poor taste.

It's amazing that not everyone can see that, or refuse to acknowledge it.

Shoes
08-05-2010, 01:02 AM
Most muslims aren't terrorists. When you hear about 50 Iraqis being killed in Baghdad by a car bomb, remember they are probably muslims. Not all muslims would want to build a Mosque at ground zero either, so you can probably scrutinize this particular group of muslims, but muslims as a whole are just a different population of the globe.

I'm not disagreeing with you Pat. I would say MOST Muslims have no desire to build a mosque at GZ....its the one's pushing the matter that concern me. The whole of Ground Zero should be turned into a memorial park where nothing is built....but somehow I get the feeling that money rules. I think I know Shiite and Sunni Muslims very well, not from books or newspapers..but personal experience. If a mosque is built there, it will be a victory for ben laden and radical Islam.

SteelersinCA
08-05-2010, 02:42 AM
I'm pretty sure it was in the hands of the NYC council to stop it by designating the building a historical site, why are we so upset about it if the freaking city council doesn't care?

JonM229
08-05-2010, 06:01 AM
I'm pretty sure it was in the hands of the NYC council to stop it by designating the building a historical site, why are we so upset about it if the freaking city council doesn't care?

I think some people believe that the mosque will basically be an Islamic form of a cathedral. The mosque will not just be a place of worship, but will also be used as a community center, much like a Y (Warden knows all about those) or a JCC. Though I'm sure some would argue that a Muslim community center is just code for terrorist training camp. 9/11 was committed by Muslims, so no Muslim should even be allowed near Ground Zero.

venom
08-05-2010, 12:20 PM
This is what happens twice a week near Ground Zero


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7hILnHsNKE&feature=related

Mach1
08-05-2010, 12:49 PM
Why don't they put up a bronze statue of osama while they're at it. :monkey:

venom
08-05-2010, 02:56 PM
Why don't they put up a bronze statue of osama while they're at it. :monkey:

Shhhhh , dont give them any idea's

NJarhead
08-05-2010, 03:02 PM
Dirka, Dirka, Mohammed Jihad...bitches!

:chuckle:

It seems as though we are using the US Constitution to defend an act that is in poor taste.

7SteelGal43
08-05-2010, 03:34 PM
I don't in any way believe the Mosque would be a 'training camp for terrorists' by any means. It is simply nothing more than a slap in the face by Islamics who in some way got a little hint of satisfaction on 9/11. And this is to say "...now we're gonna build a Mosque here, bitches". I say HELL NO !

7SteelGal43
08-05-2010, 03:39 PM
This is what happens twice a week near Ground Zero


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7hILnHsNKE&feature=related

yeah....and we're gonna let 'em build a Mosque at Ground Zero ?

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv174/tei_blu_bae/i-dont-think-so.jpg

NJarhead
08-05-2010, 04:35 PM
yeah....and we're gonna let 'em build a Mosque at Ground Zero ?

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv174/tei_blu_bae/i-dont-think-so.jpg

lol

st33lersguy
08-06-2010, 08:08 PM
Isn't Bloomberg a repub?


Nope. He's a Dem.

You're both wrong he's an independent

st33lersguy
08-06-2010, 08:23 PM
What irks me about this whole thing is how left-wingers who don't like the constitution and ignore it on many issues all of a sudden state the constitution as a reason as to why this terroristic imam should build a mosque on ground zero. I guess the ACLU, Michael Bloomberg, and other elitists who jam political correctness down our throats and don't like the constitution only care about the constitution to protect muslims while they completely ignore it when it applies to christians and jews.

Godfather
08-08-2010, 09:46 PM
What irks me about this whole thing is how left-wingers who don't like the constitution and ignore it on many issues all of a sudden state the constitution as a reason as to why this terroristic imam should build a mosque on ground zero. I guess the ACLU, Michael Bloomberg, and other elitists who jam political correctness down our throats and don't like the constitution only care about the constitution to protect muslims while they completely ignore it when it applies to christians and jews.

You don't know the half of it. It hasn't been getting any attention, but there was a Greek Orthodox church that contained relics from St. Nicholas. It was crushed by the south tower and the city won't let them rebuild. I wish Fox News would call out NYC officials for that.

tony hipchest
08-09-2010, 12:03 AM
What irks me about this whole thing is how left-wingers who don't like the constitution and ignore it on many issues all of a sudden state the constitution as a reason as to why this terroristic imam should build a mosque on ground zero. I guess the ACLU, Michael Bloomberg, and other elitists who jam political correctness down our throats and don't like the constitution only care about the constitution to protect muslims while they completely ignore it when it applies to christians and jews.

what a coincidence.

what irks me about this whole thing is how right-wingers who preach capitalism to no end, now all of a sudden want to ignore the right to sale prime NYC real estate to muslims and their right (granted under our freedoms and liberties *theres that evil "lib" word*) to do whatever they want with it as they wish. :noidea:

has anyone bothered yet to find out who is responsible for the sale of this land? my stance on that is already clearly stated.

venom
08-09-2010, 05:44 AM
Now the media here is reporting that half the building belongs to Con Edison . Do the people have to buy them out ? They don't know whats going to happen now .

venom
08-09-2010, 05:45 AM
What irks me about this whole thing is how left-wingers who don't like the constitution and ignore it on many issues all of a sudden state the constitution as a reason as to why this terroristic imam should build a mosque on ground zero. I guess the ACLU, Michael Bloomberg, and other elitists who jam political correctness down our throats and don't like the constitution only care about the constitution to protect muslims while they completely ignore it when it applies to christians and jews.

.......And Americans

zulater
08-09-2010, 02:30 PM
I'd sooner see the Nazi party set up shop at Ground zero than see a Mosque put there. The main difference as I see it between Nazi's and Muslims is that at least Nazi's treat their woman more fairly. Inflammatory? Yeah I guess so, but when I see what happened to those medical personell in Afghanistan it ignites my rage against this bastard religion.

Oh I know the Taliban isn't a real representation of the "religion of peace." Really? I know the Taiban's puported reason for executing these decent people is because they were promoting Christianity. Given their background ( the executed medical workers) the Taliban may have been right.There's a good chance those people were mixing in a dab of ministering with their medicine which to the Taliban warrants a death penatly. And you know what, it's also a capital crime in Egypt, Kuwait and many other so called progressive Muslim states to convert to or promote another religion over Islam to someone born to the religion.

There's is a perverted society where woman and people of other cultures are treated with open hostility. They're no better than Nazi's. Keep them to fuck away from ground zero!

st33lersguy
08-09-2010, 07:11 PM
what a coincidence.

what irks me about this whole thing is how right-wingers who preach capitalism to no end, now all of a sudden want to ignore the right to sale prime NYC real estate to muslims and their right (granted under our freedoms and liberties *theres that evil "lib" word*) to do whatever they want with it as they wish. :noidea:

You don't see anything wrong with an imam who wants america to become sharia compliant and who won't consider Hamas a terrorist organization building a muslim mosque right next to ground zero a place where muslim jihadists blew up the twin towers and killed 3,000 americans and brought pain to their families?? This is a slap to the face to the families of the victims and america in general and signifies victory for terrorism because a muslim building is being constructed on top of a famous building of the western world blown up by muslim terrorists

urgle burgle
08-09-2010, 08:45 PM
although the mosque at ground zero disgusts me, and i find it an affront......if their is no true legal reason to stop it, then it will be built. the govt should not step in to stop this. it is not their place. now, protests, public opinion, other possible issues (funding, what not) can come into play, and should. but the reason the mosque should not be buit must not come from legal matters. again....it is disgusting, reprehensible, offensive, in poor taste, intently controversial, etc....but their must not be any legal issue with stopping it. that, in itself, goes against the Constitution.

Vincent
08-09-2010, 09:00 PM
One of the things that seperate we Americans from our furry muslim "friends" is our humor, and their lack of it...

http://libertypundits.net/article/ground-queero-greg-gutfelds-new-cordoba-mosque-gay-bar-a-mecca-of-tolerance/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ground-queero-greg-gutfelds-new-cordoba-mosque-gay-bar-a-mecca-of-tolerance
Ground Queero: Greg Gutfeld’s New Cordoba Mosque Gay Bar: A Mecca Of Tolerance

Greg Gutfeld the host of Fox’s Redeye decided to fight for tolerance:

So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it’s all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.

As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque – after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law – who can stop them?

Which is, why, in the spirit of outreach, I’ve decided to do the same thing.

I’m announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space.

This is not a joke. I’ve already spoken to a number of investors, who have pledged their support in this bipartisan bid for understanding and tolerance.

As you know, the Muslim faith doesn’t look kindly upon homosexuality, which is why I’m building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world.


http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/ahmadinejad-homosexuals.gif
The goal, however, is not simply to open a typical gay bar, but one friendly to men of Islamic faith. An entire floor, for example, will feature non-alcoholic drinks, since booze is forbidden by the faith. The bar will be open all day and night, to accommodate men who would rather keep their sexuality under wraps – but still want to dance.

Bottom line: I hope that the mosque owners will be as open to the bar, as I am to the new mosque. After all, the belief driving them to open up their center near Ground Zero, is no different than mine.

My place, however, will have better music.

urgle burgle
08-09-2010, 09:02 PM
i love red eye (hosted by greg)......good stuff vincie

Godfather
08-09-2010, 09:19 PM
You don't see anything wrong with an imam who wants america to become sharia compliant and who won't consider Hamas a terrorist organization building a muslim mosque right next to ground zero a place where muslim jihadists blew up the twin towers and killed 3,000 americans and brought pain to their families?? This is a slap to the face to the families of the victims and america in general and signifies victory for terrorism because a muslim building is being constructed on top of a famous building of the western world blown up by muslim terrorists

Plus they want to do some kind of groundbreaking or ribbon cutting on September 11. That tells you all you need to know--it's intended as an FU to America, not as a legitimate mosque.

Vincent
08-09-2010, 09:29 PM
Plus they want to do some kind of groundbreaking or ribbon cutting on September 11. That tells you all you need to know--it's intended as an FU to America, not as a legitimate mosque.

As one who believes in reciprocity, I think we should test our next new warhead on mecca. And as tests must be conclusive, test another on medina.

What? :noidea:

NJarhead
08-09-2010, 09:30 PM
Plus they want to do some kind of groundbreaking or ribbon cutting on September 11. That tells you all you need to know--it's intended as an FU to America, not as a legitimate mosque.
In all seriousness, do you have a credible source that supports that? This is the first I'm hearing of it and I live around here. THAT would not be stood for, I can assure you of that.

venom
08-09-2010, 09:46 PM
In all seriousness, do you have a credible source that supports that? This is the first I'm hearing of it and I live around here. THAT would not be stood for, I can assure you of that.

Same here . The news is not reporting that ( groundbreaking ) here .

Vincent
08-09-2010, 10:21 PM
"Incredibly, ground-breaking for the Ground Zero mosque is scheduled for Sept. 11 -- the anniversary of 9/11. Does it take much imagination to figure out how al-Jazeera and the militant Muslim world will greet that occurrence?"

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2010/08/04/14926731.html

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/26172

Mach1
08-09-2010, 11:15 PM
As one who believes in reciprocity, I think we should test our next new warhead on mecca. And as tests must be conclusive, test another on medina.

What? :noidea:

Why test? Send something we know that works.

tony hipchest
08-09-2010, 11:28 PM
You don't see anything wrong with an imam who wants america to become sharia compliant and who won't consider Hamas a terrorist organization building a muslim mosque right next to ground zero a place where muslim jihadists blew up the twin towers and killed 3,000 americans and brought pain to their families?? This is a slap to the face to the families of the victims and america in general and signifies victory for terrorism because a muslim building is being constructed on top of a famous building of the western world blown up by muslim terroristswho?

me?

is it even remotely possible that your are a late entry to this discussion and havent followed this thread in its entirety? because i have already clearly stated my OWN PERSONAL stance on the subject pages ago.

but if that isnt enough, subtracting raw emotion and looking at it from a legal standpoint, the below post sums up my view nicely.


although the mosque at ground zero disgusts me, and i find it an affront......if their is no true legal reason to stop it, then it will be built. the govt should not step in to stop this. it is not their place. now, protests, public opinion, other possible issues (funding, what not) can come into play, and should. but the reason the mosque should not be buit must not come from legal matters. again....it is disgusting, reprehensible, offensive, in poor taste, intently controversial, etc....but their must not be any legal issue with stopping it. that, in itself, goes against the Constitution.

make no mistake, st33lersguy, that your reason for not wanting a mosque built on what should be final resting grounds is no greater than mine. FWIW i also dont advocate opening a sushi bar on top of the USS Arizona.

ANY inference that i am less american, or less of a patriot than you, i will take as a personal attack and suspect it will be dealt with accordingly.

(good post urgle....)

NCSteeler
08-10-2010, 12:35 AM
what a coincidence.

what irks me about this whole thing is how right-wingers who preach capitalism to no end, now all of a sudden want to ignore the right to sale prime NYC real estate to muslims and their right (granted under our freedoms and liberties *theres that evil "lib" word*) to do whatever they want with it as they wish. :noidea:

has anyone bothered yet to find out who is responsible for the sale of this land? my stance on that is already clearly stated.

I think they can buy whatever they want, that doesn't preclude a zoning board from saying you can't build that HERE. ZBs take free will into hand all the time to make decisions about how cities and towns should be laid out. One major thing that sticks out for me here (in proving they are staking their victory) is that this is not a Muslim neighborhood nor is it very near one. It's a conqueror staking his flag on the soil of his victory, no more no less.

tony hipchest
08-10-2010, 12:56 AM
do ZB's also take into account free kickbacks and bribes?

this isnt as much a political issue with me as it is a religious one and the united states' God is the almighty dollar, not Jesus Christ (or mohammed or zeus).

i notice "where's the porn" is underneath your SN. perhaps our govt should take 'free will' into hand and outlaw that in regards to how the morality of this nation is laid out. :noidea:

(the roll of devils advocate is never an easy one).

Wallace108
08-10-2010, 07:17 AM
I say let them build it ... and then let's blow it up!
I'm kidding of course (maybe).

Dates have symbolic importance to Muslims, so the fact that they plan to break ground on Sept. 11 shows their true intentions.

This is from Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah, who are Muslims:


New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.

The Koran commands Muslims to, "Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book" -- i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of "fitna"

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wCjTM1Xz

7SteelGal43
08-10-2010, 10:19 AM
Dates have symbolic importance to Muslims, so the fact that they plan to break ground on Sept. 11 shows their true intentions.


Exactly. Anyone who doesn't think this was meant to be a slap in the face shouldn't have any doubts now.

venom
08-10-2010, 10:51 AM
Exactly. Anyone who doesn't think this was meant to be a slap in the face shouldn't have any doubts now.

Right !!!


I think about 9/11 everyday due to I was there on day 1 and also see Ground Zero on my way to work . Many people dont know the meaning of 9/11 . There are people who live in states where they think terrorists will never attack . The terrorists didn't attack " lower Manhatten " on 9/11, they attack America. Its a shame how there are "certain types" of people who will bend over for these people , very sad .

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 03:35 PM
"Incredibly, ground-breaking for the Ground Zero mosque is scheduled for Sept. 11 -- the anniversary of 9/11. Does it take much imagination to figure out how al-Jazeera and the militant Muslim world will greet that occurrence?"

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2010/08/04/14926731.html

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/26172

Those were both pretty good articles, and surprising considering that most Canadians I spoke with loved that Obama won the election.
Still, I'm not going to buy into the date until I hear a credible news source within our own boarders report on it.

If there is any truth the the ground breaking date though, I think I may have to be there to protest as well.

urgle burgle
08-10-2010, 04:22 PM
well.....regardless how any of us feel, it will be built. the feds are now using the main imam as some sort of mid east tool.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/feds_funding_zero_imam_mideast_trip_OTq9dmoHpxbaKv JbB4VLGM

specualte away on what it means, but the feds will be pushing it now.....interesting to say the least

Mach1
08-10-2010, 04:26 PM
specualte away on what it means, but the feds will be pushing it now.....interesting to say the least

Look at the closet muslim posing as president.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 04:28 PM
well.....regardless how any of us feel, it will be built. the feds are now using the main imam as some sort of mid east tool.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/feds_funding_zero_imam_mideast_trip_OTq9dmoHpxbaKv JbB4VLGM

specualte away on what it means, but the feds will be pushing it now.....interesting to say the least

Not to keep beating up on peoples' sources, but the NY Post is sort of a stand alone in the media department as well and tends to take "liberties."

There didn't seem to be anything negative about the guy and if he's trying to extend the olive branch from non-terrorist muslims to the rest of us, I don't have a problem with it. I just don't understand why we're paying for it (if that's all true).

MasterOfPuppets
08-10-2010, 04:29 PM
Mosque Used by 9/11 Plotters Is Closed
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/10/world/europe/10germany-.html


BERLIN — The authorities in Hamburg said Monday that they had shut down the mosque where several of the hijackers involved in the Sept. 11 attacks had met, asserting that it remained a source of radicalization nearly a decade later.


“Today we closed the Taiba mosque because young men were being turned into religious fanatics there,” said Christoph Ahlhaus, secretary of the interior for the city of Hamburg, at a news conference. “Behind the scenes, a supposed cultural organization shamelessly used the freedoms of our democratic rule of law to promote holy war.”

urgle burgle
08-10-2010, 04:42 PM
Not to keep beating up on peoples' sources, but the NY Post is sort of a stand alone in the media department as well and tends to take "liberties."

There didn't seem to be anything negative about the guy and if he's trying to extend the olive branch from non-terrorist muslims to the rest of us, I don't have a problem with it. I just don't understand why we're paying for it (if that's all true).

whether he is or isnt a moderate is ilrelevant. the point of interest, is out of all the moderate imams(of which i dont think he is) to send, the feds pick the guy central to the mosque uproar. thats just another FU to half the country. who is running the pres pr stuff, or making these inane decisions?

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 05:15 PM
whether he is or isnt a moderate is ilrelevant. the point of interest, is out of all the moderate imams(of which i dont think he is) to send, the feds pick the guy central to the mosque uproar. thats just another FU to half the country. who is running the pres pr stuff, or making these inane decisions?

Who knows. I'm not going to subscribe to a conspiracy just yet though.

zulater
08-10-2010, 06:03 PM
One of the things that seperate we Americans from our furry muslim "friends" is our humor, and their lack of it...

http://libertypundits.net/article/ground-queero-greg-gutfelds-new-cordoba-mosque-gay-bar-a-mecca-of-tolerance/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ground-queero-greg-gutfelds-new-cordoba-mosque-gay-bar-a-mecca-of-tolerance
Ground Queero: Greg Gutfeld’s New Cordoba Mosque Gay Bar: A Mecca Of Tolerance

Greg Gutfeld the host of Fox’s Redeye decided to fight for tolerance:

So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it’s all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.

As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque – after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law – who can stop them?

Which is, why, in the spirit of outreach, I’ve decided to do the same thing.

I’m announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space.

This is not a joke. I’ve already spoken to a number of investors, who have pledged their support in this bipartisan bid for understanding and tolerance.

As you know, the Muslim faith doesn’t look kindly upon homosexuality, which is why I’m building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world.


http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/ahmadinejad-homosexuals.gif
The goal, however, is not simply to open a typical gay bar, but one friendly to men of Islamic faith. An entire floor, for example, will feature non-alcoholic drinks, since booze is forbidden by the faith. The bar will be open all day and night, to accommodate men who would rather keep their sexuality under wraps – but still want to dance.

Bottom line: I hope that the mosque owners will be as open to the bar, as I am to the new mosque. After all, the belief driving them to open up their center near Ground Zero, is no different than mine.

My place, however, will have better music.

Good stuff Vince. Moslems demand tolerance and respect from Western society but in their own world give neither to anyone.

st33lersguy
08-10-2010, 06:22 PM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ijPxKmwGVxOVZvDFCYSiBLyPIaJAD9HGS0PG0

Yep, the community orginizer in chief's state dept. will waste our hard earned tax dollars so this imam can go to the middle east. Hmmm, wonder why?

The Patriot
08-10-2010, 06:26 PM
One of the things that seperate we Americans from our furry muslim "friends" is our humor, and their lack of it...

http://libertypundits.net/article/ground-queero-greg-gutfelds-new-cordoba-mosque-gay-bar-a-mecca-of-tolerance/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ground-queero-greg-gutfelds-new-cordoba-mosque-gay-bar-a-mecca-of-tolerance
Ground Queero: Greg Gutfeld’s New Cordoba Mosque Gay Bar: A Mecca Of Tolerance

Greg Gutfeld the host of Fox’s Redeye decided to fight for tolerance:

So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it’s all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.

As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque – after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law – who can stop them?

Which is, why, in the spirit of outreach, I’ve decided to do the same thing.

I’m announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space.

This is not a joke. I’ve already spoken to a number of investors, who have pledged their support in this bipartisan bid for understanding and tolerance.

As you know, the Muslim faith doesn’t look kindly upon homosexuality, which is why I’m building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world.


http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/ahmadinejad-homosexuals.gif
The goal, however, is not simply to open a typical gay bar, but one friendly to men of Islamic faith. An entire floor, for example, will feature non-alcoholic drinks, since booze is forbidden by the faith. The bar will be open all day and night, to accommodate men who would rather keep their sexuality under wraps – but still want to dance.

Bottom line: I hope that the mosque owners will be as open to the bar, as I am to the new mosque. After all, the belief driving them to open up their center near Ground Zero, is no different than mine.

My place, however, will have better music.

LMAO! That is brilliant!

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 06:33 PM
Perhaps I'm being silly, but I imagine us (ALL OF US) only being pushed so far before shit gets...."less than hospitable" for ANYONE wishing to take this Islam thing too far in the U.S.

Yea, perhaps this Mosque is where the beginning of the end of it is, but so many people are outraged that some of the stories are being twisted into conspiracies and false propaganda.

I'm willing to wait and see. They can't put up anything that we can't burn down. This Country still belongs to us and I honestly don't believe we're in any danger of losing it to anyone; least of all Muslims.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 07:40 PM
It was pointed out to me that I may have come off as soft and therefore disappointing to my fellow "Righties." Don't worry boys, I didn't get to the part about loading up the shot guns, jumping in the back of the pick up and goin out lookin for (place Muslim slur here).

:chuckle:

JonM229
08-10-2010, 07:43 PM
I thought this was a good Op-Ed piece from the New York Times:

A Monument to Tolerance
Published: August 3, 2010

It has been disturbing to hear and read the vitriol and outright bigotry surrounding the building of a mosque two blocks from the site of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. So it was inspiring when New York City’s Landmarks Preservation Commission voted 9 to 0 on Tuesday to reaffirm one of the basic tenets of democracy: religious tolerance.

Instead of caving in to the angry voices — many but not all of them self-promoting Republican politicians — commissioners paved the way for construction of the mosque and Islamic center. It was not just the right thing to do, it was the only thing to do.

The attacks of Sept. 11 were not a religious event. They were mass murder. The American response, as President Obama and President George W. Bush before him have said many times, was not a war against Islam.

Read the rest at A Monument to Tolerance at Ground Zero (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/opinion/04wed1.html?_r=1)

venom
08-10-2010, 07:47 PM
The only thing The New York Times is good for is climbing

http://www.treehugger.com/nyt-building-climber.jpg

JonM229
08-10-2010, 07:48 PM
The only thing The New York Times is good for is climbing

http://www.treehugger.com/nyt-building-climber.jpg

More like the Jew York Times. Am I right?

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 07:51 PM
More like the Jew York Times. Am I right?
HEY! My friend is Jewish!

:chuckle:

JonM229
08-10-2010, 07:58 PM
The people of Mufreesboro, Tennessee don't want a new Mosque in their town either because...then the terrorists win?

Plan for Mosque in Tennessee Town Draws Criticism From Residents (http://abcnews.go.com/WN/murfreesboro-tennessee-mosque-plan-draws-criticism-residents/story?id=10956381)

A plan to build an Islamic community center in the middle-Tennessee town of Murfreesboro sparked an eruption of ugly criticism on Thursday from some residents who don't want a mosque built in their backyard.

More than 600 people turned out for a meeting of the Rutherford County Commission Thursday night, with some sharing their opposition in public comments that at times turned intolerant.

"We have a duty to investigate anyone under the banner of Islam," Allen Jackson, the pastor of World Outreach Church, said at the meeting.

Some more snippets:

Some at the Thursday meeting wore religious or patriotic-themed clothing, and no one defended the plan in two hours of public comments, the Tennessean newspaper reported.
"They seem to be against everything that I believe in, and so I don't want them necessarily in my neighborhood spreading that type of comment," said one man at the meeting.
Tracey Steven, who also attended, said, "Our country was founded through the founding fathers -- through the true God, the Father and Jesus Christ."


Bahloul said he and the center have done their best to dispel rumors that they are tied to terrorists and explain their motivation. On their website, they assure neighbors that they have no ties to any outside national or international organizations.
Still, Bahloul said the criticism stings.
"It hurts a little bit because it took the excitement away from us," he said.

More reasons to never move to Tennessee

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:05 PM
I thought this was a good Op-Ed piece from the New York Times:

There's no such thing as a "good" Op-Ed piece from the New York Times as evidenced by what must be one of the most ignorant comments in human history.


The attacks of Sept. 11 were not a religious event.

What about the 21 muslim terrorists attacking the penultimate symbols of our society eludes you and the rest of you liberals? I have searched in vain for a shred of logic in all this repackaging of islamic savagery as "man-made disasters", and "we caused 9/11", and the rest of the mindless bull@#$%. But that one stupid comment did it for me. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

You people hate this country so much you fall all over yourselves to lie and cover up what is obvious to any organism with a brainwave. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Let me amend my first remark - what must be one of the most deliberately deceptive comments in human history.

What you don't or refuse to realize is that when islam comes, you'll be the first to go.

JonM229
08-10-2010, 08:11 PM
Al-Qaeda does not speak for all of the Muslims in the world.

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:11 PM
More reasons to never move to Tennessee

Having happily married into a Tennessee family 36 years ago, I can say with all certainty that my hope remains to one day retire there. Just another reason for me.

Jon, given your background, why do you carry water for "people" that would gleefully gut you like a pig?

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:14 PM
There's no such thing as a "good" Op-Ed piece from the New York Times as evidenced by what must be one of the most ignorant comments in human history.



What about the 21 muslim terrorists attacking the penultimate symbols of our society eludes you and the rest of you liberals? I have searched in vain for a shred of logic in all this repackaging of islamic savagery as "man-made disasters", and "we caused 9/11", and the rest of the mindless bull@#$%. But that one stupid comment did it for me. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

You people hate this country so much you fall all over yourselves to lie and cover up what is obvious to any organism with a brainwave. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Let me amend my first remark - what must be one of the most deliberately deceptive comments in human history.

What you don't or refuse to realize is that when islam comes, you'll be the first to go.

I must have missed that one ("The attacks of Sept. 11 were not a religious event"). That is complete bullshit.

JonM229
08-10-2010, 08:18 PM
Jon, given your background, why do you carry water for "people" that would gleefully gut you like a pig?

I'm sure there's plenty of radical Christians who would do the same.

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:19 PM
I must have missed that one ("The attacks of Sept. 11 were not a religious event"). That is complete bullshit.

That's the mindset of the left. They freekin love those savages. Armed with that realization it should now be apparent what the "agenda" with this "mosque" bull@#$% is. Yes, it's religious.

MasterOfPuppets
08-10-2010, 08:20 PM
There's no such thing as a "good" Op-Ed piece from the New York Times as evidenced by what must be one of the most ignorant comments in human history.



What about the 21 muslim terrorists attacking the penultimate symbols of our society eludes you and the rest of you liberals? I have searched in vain for a shred of logic in all this repackaging of islamic savagery as "man-made disasters", and "we caused 9/11", and the rest of the mindless bull@#$%. But that one stupid comment did it for me. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

You people hate this country so much you fall all over yourselves to lie and cover up what is obvious to any organism with a brainwave. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Let me amend my first remark - what must be one of the most deliberately deceptive comments in human history.

What you don't or refuse to realize is that when islam comes, you'll be the first to go.

thats not playing nice vinny :nono:

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:21 PM
I'm sure there's plenty of radical Christians who would do the same.

I haven't met a Christian, "radical" or otherwise, that wouldn't take a bullet for Israel.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:23 PM
That's the mindset of the left. They freekin love those savages. Armed with that realization it should now be apparent what the "agenda" with this "mosque" bull@#$% is. Yes, it's religious.

I'm just not there yet Vinny. And don't get me wrong, if the shit starts hitting the fan and they begin burning our flag or protesting 9-11 remembrance ceremonies, etc., I'll be right there fighting back in the street.

JonM229
08-10-2010, 08:23 PM
I haven't met a Christian, "radical" or otherwise, that wouldn't take a bullet for Israel.

Most of them believe that the Jews being there will bring about the Rapture

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:27 PM
I haven't met a Christian, "radical" or otherwise, that wouldn't take a bullet for Israel.
In Jon's defense, maybe you haven't met them buddy,but they go around dressed like this:

http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ku-klux-klan-salute.jpg

JonM229
08-10-2010, 08:28 PM
In Jon's defense, maybe you haven't met them buddy,but they go around dressed like this:

http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ku-klux-klan-salute.jpg

Burned....literally

stillers4me
08-10-2010, 08:33 PM
One infraction has been given out already for name calling and insults in this thread.

Carry on my wayward sons........

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:34 PM
Burned....literally
No, no, no. That was not what I was intending. Vincent is my friend.

Why do you Jews always have to start shit? :chuckle:

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:35 PM
One infraction has been given out already for name calling and insults in this thread.

Carry on my wayward sons........

Today? Aside from Jon calling himself a Jew (and then me calling him a Jew - Which we do from time-to-time), I thought everyone was pretty well behaved.

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:35 PM
Most of them believe that the Jews being there will bring about the Rapture

That's tantamount to saying the existence of the internal combustion engine will bring about crowded LA freeways. While there is linkage, it isn't a direct cause and effect relationship.

But if that were true, what does "Jews being there will bring about the Rapture" mean to you personally? And how might that affect how Christians view you?

Oh, and beastly sorry about referring to your ilk as jagoffs.

JonM229
08-10-2010, 08:36 PM
No, no, no. That was not what I was intending. Vincent is my friend.

Why do you Jews always have to start shit? :chuckle:

Ask Mel Gibson

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:37 PM
In Jon's defense, maybe you haven't met them buddy,but they go around dressed like this:

http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ku-klux-klan-salute.jpg

A picture of a democrat? Seriously?

tony hipchest
08-10-2010, 08:38 PM
One infraction has been given out already for name calling and insults in this thread.

Carry on my wayward sons........this board has infractions???

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:38 PM
A picture of a democrat? Seriously?
:chuckle:

Yea, I'm not touching that one.

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:39 PM
Why do you Jews always have to start shit? :chuckle:

Generally they don't. Its "people" that hate Jews that start @#$%.

We're swerving back to the OP.

stillers4me
08-10-2010, 08:39 PM
this board has infractions???

Yep.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:40 PM
Ask Mel Gibson
Oh man! Such a great opportunity to derail this conversation and have some fun.
Unfortunately that's called "hijacking" and it don't fly my little shit starting friend. :chuckle:

This Devil's Advocate thing is kinda fun.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:41 PM
Generally they don't. Its "people" that hate Jews that start @#$%.

We're swerving back to the OP.
For the record, that was not a serious comment. Jon always brings that shit up; I just humor him.

urgle burgle
08-10-2010, 08:41 PM
i touched a democrat once....a couple.....in the right setting....like the bedroom, they are very religious....
at least in my experience.

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:42 PM
One infraction has been given out already for name calling and insults in this thread.

Carry on my wayward sons........

That was terrible of me. I didn't mean to say "jagoff". Is "English bed wetting type" OK?

Vincent
08-10-2010, 08:44 PM
i touched a democrat once....a couple.....in the right setting....like the bedroom, they are very religious....
at least in my experience.

Manage a trois is "religious"? That'll upset the muslims.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:44 PM
i touched a democrat once....a couple.....in the right setting....like the bedroom, they are very religious....
at least in my experience.

lmao!

I say, "UP TOP!"

and you respond with, "High Five!"

UP TOP!

JonM229
08-10-2010, 08:49 PM
That's tantamount to saying the existence of the internal combustion engine will bring about crowded LA freeways. While there is linkage, it isn't a direct cause and effect relationship.

But if that were true, what does "Jews being there will bring about the Rapture" mean to you personally? And how might that affect how Christians view you?

Oh, and beastly sorry about referring to your ilk as jagoffs.

There's certain evangelical sects that flat out state they believe Jews occupying the Holy Land will bring about the second coming. The Jews just need to build the Third Temple on the Temple Mount, which is where the Dome of the Rock (another Mosque, gasp) currently is.

Personally, it makes me suspicious of their motives in their support of Israel. They believe we'll all convert at the time of the Rapture anyway.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 08:51 PM
There's certain evangelical sects that flat out state they believe Jews occupying the Holy Land will bring about the second coming. The Jews just need to build the Third Temple on the Temple Mount, which is where the Dome of the Rock (another Mosque, gasp) currently is.

Personally, it makes me suspicious of their motives in their support of Israel. They believe we'll all convert at the time of the Rapture anyway.

Umm, were Jews the original residents of the Holy Land?

UPDATE: I'm being facetious; no need to answer.

JonM229
08-10-2010, 08:54 PM
Oh man! Such a great opportunity to derail this conversation and have some fun.
Unfortunately that's called "hijacking" and it don't fly my little shit starting friend. :chuckle:

This Devil's Advocate thing is kinda fun.

Just trying to lighten the mood.

Vincent
08-10-2010, 09:00 PM
There's certain evangelical sects that flat out state they believe Jews occupying the Holy Land will bring about the second coming. The Jews just need to build the Third Temple on the Temple Mount, which is where the Dome of the Rock (another Mosque, gasp) currently is.

Personally, it makes me suspicious of their motives in their support of Israel. They believe we'll all convert at the time of the Rapture anyway.

Jews don't "occupy" the Holy land. It is their home. I've not met a Christian that thinks otherwise. Jews returning to their homeland was prophesied as part of "the end times", but it certainly isn't the catalyst.

Nobody "believes" "you all" will convert to anything. You're already Jews. The "conversion" you speak of is realizing that Jesus is the Messiah. That isn't conversion of any sort. Its the ultimate state of being Jewish.

Whether or not you realize it, we're on the same team. That's why our furry muslim "friends" hate us with equal vitriol. Just ask them.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 09:07 PM
Just trying to lighten the mood.
Dude, I'm in a giddy mood as I've been having some pretty light-hearted and comical conversations tonight. Even with some Libs.

NJarhead
08-10-2010, 09:08 PM
Jews don't "occupy" the Holy land. It is their home. I've not met a Christian that thinks otherwise. Jews returning to their homeland was prophesied as part of "the end times", but it certainly isn't the catalyst.

Nobody "believes" "you all" will convert to anything. You're already Jews. The "conversion" you speak of is realizing that Jesus is the Messiah. That isn't conversion of any sort. Its the ultimate state of being Jewish.

Whether or not you realize it, we're on the same team. That's why our furry muslim "friends" hate us with equal vitriol. Just ask them.

I'd argue, but you nailed it.

JonM229
08-10-2010, 09:10 PM
Jews don't "occupy" the Holy land. It is their home. I've not met a Christian that thinks otherwise. Jews returning to their homeland was prophesied as part of "the end times", but it certainly isn't the catalyst.

Nobody "believes" "you all" will convert to anything. You're already Jews. The "conversion" you speak of is realizing that Jesus is the Messiah. That isn't conversion of any sort. Its the ultimate state of being Jewish.

Whether or not you realize it, we're on the same team. That's why our furry muslim "friends" hate us with equal vitriol. Just ask them.

In the literal sense, believing in Christ makes one a Christian. I don't even consider Messianic Jews (including my fiance's mother) as being Jewish.

I work with a Muslim who happens to be one of the nicest people I've ever met. We've had several discussions on our beliefs that have never become heated. If I hear him say "Death to America/Jews" then I'll have a different opinion of him.

JonM229
08-10-2010, 09:13 PM
The End Times prophecy regarding Judaism and Islam as well as Christianity all state that everyone will realize that theirs is the true religion. So that argument doesn't really hold any water for me.

venom
08-10-2010, 09:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4v_kj9rw4

Vincent
08-10-2010, 09:32 PM
In the literal sense, believing in Christ makes one a Christian. I don't even consider Messianic Jews (including my fiance's mother) as being Jewish.

If the Messiah was sent to save Israel, then believing in the Messiah is the ultimate act of being Jewish. "Christians" are gentiles that accept the Christ, and are in effect, adopted Jews. How's that sit with you? :wave:


I work with a Muslim who happens to be one of the nicest people I've ever met. We've had several discussions on our beliefs that have never become heated. If I hear him say "Death to America/Jews" then I'll have a different opinion of him.

How do you feel about his brethren calling for our demise? They're on the same team.


The End Times prophecy regarding Judaism and Islam as well as Christianity all state that everyone will realize that theirs is the true religion. So that argument doesn't really hold any water for me.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. But then you are from Baltimore. :noidea:

How can a religion that's purpose it is to destroy the other two coexist as "true" with the others? Especially when their "god" is their moon god?

The Moon is always full in Baltimore. :der:

7SteelGal43
08-10-2010, 09:50 PM
Monument to tolerance my ass !!!!!!!!

JonM229
08-10-2010, 11:03 PM
If the Messiah was sent to save Israel, then believing in the Messiah is the ultimate act of being Jewish. "Christians" are gentiles that accept the Christ, and are in effect, adopted Jews. How's that sit with you? :wave:
I'm still waiting for the first coming of a Messiah.

There's an ultra-orthodox sect in Judaism that believes that Christ was a Jewish version of the anti-Christ, if that statement makes any sense. The main problem with any religion is the whole "We're right and you're wrong, so you're going to hell" aspect. I don't leave Judaism out of that criticism either. I believe that God does not care what you believe in. You will be judged by how you act in this life.


How do you feel about his brethren calling for our demise? They're on the same team.:
I highly doubt they're on the same team. He moved his family from Algeria, where he had a good job, because he believed that they would have a better life in America.


How can a religion that's purpose it is to destroy the other two coexist as "true" with the others? Especially when their "god" is their moon god?
Muslims actually believe in the God of Abraham. Go ask one.

Mach1
08-10-2010, 11:27 PM
Monument to tolerance my ass !!!!!!!!

Build that gay bar next door and we'll see just how much tolerance they have.

zulater
08-10-2010, 11:31 PM
Al-Qaeda does not speak for all of the Muslims in the world.

Yeah, but the trouble is not enough "moderate" Muslims speak up against the common villiany and thuggery that's performed in the name of Mohamed and in fact go to great lengths to make exuses for their more radical breathren.

Where are the Moslems speaking up against the terrorists that targest cartoonists that have the nerve to draw pictures of their prophet?

Where are the moderate Moslems speaking out strongly against the faction of their populace that have virtually chased all Christianity out of Bethleham and Lebanon? Ritual stonings, arranged mariages, female mutilation, the chandor, etc etc etc...

It's not a religion, it's practiced intimidation.

tony hipchest
08-10-2010, 11:41 PM
Build that gay bar next door and we'll see just how much tolerance they have.how bout a pork BBQ pit next door? i bet theyd love the smell of ribs wafting through their 'services'.

MasterOfPuppets
08-10-2010, 11:42 PM
Build that gay bar next door and we'll see just how much tolerance they have.
damn hipchest beat me to it. (except i said a sausage factory)

tony hipchest
08-10-2010, 11:46 PM
actually a factory is a pretty good idea. i need a spot to start manufacturing the edible bacon bikini's i invented. i could have near nude girls parading the street outside to advertize...

MasterOfPuppets
08-10-2010, 11:47 PM
Geraldo: Man Who Bought Ground Zero Mosque with $4.8 Million Cash in 2006 Was Waiter in 2002...
video
http://www.breitbart.tv/geraldo-man-who-bought-ground-zero-mosque-with-4-8-million-cash-in-2006-was-waiter-in-2002/

MasterOfPuppets
08-10-2010, 11:51 PM
actually a factory is a pretty good idea. i need a spot to start manufacturing the edible bacon bikini's i invented. i could have near nude girls parading the street outside to advertize...

bacon thongs....mmmmmmm

tony hipchest
08-10-2010, 11:52 PM
bacon thongs....mmmmmmm

right????


dem ladies are sittin on a goldmine.

MasterOfPuppets
08-10-2010, 11:53 PM
right????


dem ladies are sittin on a goldmine.

http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/bacon-bikini-nsfw.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/04/dailygreen.jpg

Mach1
08-11-2010, 12:00 AM
http://www.everyview.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/baconlube.jpg

JonM229
08-11-2010, 12:01 AM
http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/bacon-bikini-nsfw.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/04/dailygreen.jpg

That can't be Kosher

Wallace108
08-11-2010, 12:05 AM
Yeah, THAT'S what's for breakfast!! :rockon: What were we debating again?

tony hipchest
08-11-2010, 12:19 AM
BBQ joint or Bacon Bikinis next to the mosque.

i wish i had $4.8 mil. id open up shop and make a killin from protesters on principal alone.

MasterOfPuppets
08-11-2010, 12:24 AM
BBQ joint or Bacon Bikinis next to the mosque.

i wish i had $4.8 mil. id open up shop and make a killin from protesters on principal alone.

or produce these anti muslim weapons... they shoot 600 bacon bits per minute !!!

http://www.sogoodblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/bacon-gun2.jpg

Vincent
08-11-2010, 05:52 AM
Muslims actually believe in the God of Abraham. Go ask one.

Muslims don't have a clue what they believe as evidenced by their "clerics" being all over the place. I've asked many. The "religion" isn't about faith or knowledge, its about submission, which is what the name means.

While Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, Allah is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Islam needs for us to believe that as the means to legitimacy.

Excerpts from an article on the subject...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/08/who_is_allah.html
August 23, 2007
Who Is Allah?
By Soeren Kern

Europeans love to mock the salience of religion in American society, but they won't be laughing for very long. The de-Christianization of Europe in the name of "tolerance" is rapidly driving the spiritually shiftless continent into the arms of Islam. And now, amidst the postmodern theological confusion that defines contemporary Europe, even Catholic clergy are jumping on the Islamomania bandwagon.

The latest post-Christian theological spectacle comes to us from the Netherlands (of Ayaan Hirsi Ali fame), where the Roman Catholic Bishop of Breda, Tiny Muskens, says he wants Christians to start calling God "Allah" because he believes such a gesture would promote "rapprochement between Christianity and Islam". Appearing on Dutch television, the 71-year-old cleric said:

"Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him?"

Inquiring minds want to know: If the bishop really thinks the names "God" and "Allah" are interchangeable, why doesn't he ask Muslims to start calling Allah "Yahweh", the biblical name for God? But he won't, because he knows they won't.

What Archaeology Says about Allah

Muslims claim that in pre-Islamic times, "Allah" was the biblical God of the Patriarchs, prophets and apostles. Indeed, the credibility of Islam as a religion stands or falls on its core claim of historical continuity with Judaism and Christianity. No wonder, then, that many Muslims get uppity when the claims of Islam are subjected to the hard science of archaeology.

Because archaeology provides irrefutable evidence that Allah, far from being the biblical God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was actually the pre-Islamic pagan moon-god. Indeed, it is an established archaeological fact that worship of the moon-god was the main religion of the ancient Middle East.

But what about the Arabian Peninsula, where Mohammed (570-632) launched Islam? During the last two centuries, prominent archaeologists have unearthed thousands of inscriptions which prove beyond any doubt that the dominant religion of Arabia during Mohammed's day was the cult of the moon-god.

In fact, for generations before Mohammed was born, the Arabs worshipped some 360 pagan gods housed at a stone temple in Mecca called the Kabah. According to archaeologists, the chief deity of Mecca was the moon-god called al-ilah (meaning the god or the idol), which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. Pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave themselves: Mohammed's father (Abdallah), for example, had Allah as part of his name.

What History Says about Allah

Historians say that pre-Islamic Arabs worshipped the moon-god by bowing in prayer toward Mecca several times a day. They would also make a pilgrimage to Mecca, run around the Kabah seven times and throw stones at the devil. And they fasted for one month, which began with the appearance of the crescent moon and ended when the crescent moon reappeared.

These same rites form the core of Islam today: Muslims bow in prayer toward Mecca; they make a pilgrimage to Mecca and run around the Kabah seven times; and they still throw stones at the devil. They also observe the fast of Ramadan, which begins and ends with the crescent moon.

Moreover, the ancient symbol of the pagan moon-god, the crescent moon, is the official symbol of Islam; it appears on the flags of Muslim countries, as well as on the tops of mosques and minarets everywhere.

Historians say that Mohammed, who as a traveling trader was exposed to Judaism and Christianity during his visits to different parts of the Middle East, tried to mimic those monotheistic faiths by taking Allah, the main deity within the Arabian pantheon, and making it the only god. Indeed, the basic confession of Islam is not that "Allah is Great" but that "Allah is Greater". Greater than all the other idols, that is.

But Islam also draws from other pagan traditions. For example, the tale of Mohammed's night journey into heaven parallels the Zoroastrian story of Arta Viraf. Zoroastrianism also inspired the Islamic belief that dark-eyed virgins await every man who enters heaven. And the Islamic ritual of praying five times a day? That, historians say, originates with the Sabeans, Syrian pagans who practiced an ecumenical mixture of Babylonian and Hellenic religion.

No surprise, then, that some scholars refer to Islam as monotheistic heathenism.

What Theology Says about Allah

Muslims claim that Islam is Judaism and Christianity reformed. They say the Koran confirms the truth of the Torah and the Gospels. But since those texts did not jibe with Mohammad's beliefs, they accuse Jews and Christians of changing and distorting the original versions. Muslims therefore assert that the Koran "clarifies" the Bible.

Even if that were the case, the Koran and the Bible present ideas about God (especially about His character) that are so diametrically opposed that any reasonable observer would conclude that each book refers to a distinct deity.

The Koran, for example, states unequivocally that Allah is an unknowable and non-personal deity. By contrast, the God of the Bible allows Himself to be known and desires fellowship with human beings on a personal basis. Indeed, the Bible says that Abraham (the same Abraham whom Muslims say they venerate) was the "friend of God."

The Koran also portrays Allah as a vindictive deity who hates sinners and desires to afflict them. But the Bible says God is love.

Moreover, the New Testament teaches that God loved humanity so much that He came to earth to pay the debt for man's sin, and that that act of grace is available for free to anyone who believes Jesus Christ is their personal Savior. But Islam denies that Christ was God or that He died in order to save humanity. Indeed, Allah does not provide any way for man to be reconciled to God.

And the theological differences go on and on, so much so that the God of the Bible cannot possibly be the Allah worshipped in Islam. Unless, of course, a Dutch bishop says so.

Allah and Eurabia

Mohammed thought the Jews and Christians of his day would receive him as a prophet. But the Bible says that any new revelation must agree with what is already established in Scripture (Isaiah 8:20). So they rejected his Allah as a false god. And Mohammed replied by setting his Islam on a permanent warpath against Judaism and Christianity that continues to this day......

It's not that Europeans haven't been forewarned. It's that they couldn't care less.

Soeren Kern is Senior Analyst for Transatlantic Relations at the Madrid-based Grupo de Estudios Estratégicos / Strategic Studies Group.

JonM229
08-11-2010, 06:36 AM
Muslims don't have a clue what they believe as evidenced by their "clerics" being all over the place.
Can't the same be said for Christians and Jews? Different sects have different interpretations of the Torah/Bible. I attended a Reform synagogue that had a female Rabbi (unheard of in Orthodox custom) as well as an openly gay Rabbi (according to the Torah, homosexuals shall be put to death.)


The latest post-Christian theological spectacle comes to us from the Netherlands (of Ayaan Hirsi Ali fame), where the Roman Catholic Bishop of Breda, Tiny Muskens, says he wants Christians to start calling God "Allah" because he believes such a gesture would promote "rapprochement between Christianity and Islam". Appearing on Dutch television, the 71-year-old cleric said:
"Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him?"
This is most likely due to the growing anti-Muslim sentiment that's been going on (specifically Denmark and the Netherlands) as well as anti-semitism throughout Europe.


The Koran also portrays Allah as a vindictive deity who hates sinners and desires to afflict them.
That's about the same as the deity that's in the Torah. God didn't get nice until the New Testament.


Allah is just the Arabic word that means God. Jews and Christians who only speak Arabic call their God Allah as well.

LLT
08-11-2010, 06:53 AM
That's about the same as the deity that's in the Torah. God didn't get nice until the New Testament.




Well...thats just not true. How many examples would one need of God blessing his followers....giving children to barren women...protecting his followers from lions, from fire, from enemies....healing the sick...raising the dead, to prove Gods love?

God's judgement is only ones side of the coin....to ignore His blessings and grace wouldnt be a fair assesment.



Allah is just the Arabic word that means God. Jews and Christians who only speak Arabic call their God Allah as well

That is true...but the question would be...Are we to assume that just because the Quran states that Allah is the God of the Bible that both Jews and Christians are obligated to believe it to be true.... Or do we examine the nature and attributes of Allah in order to compare them with the biblical portrait of God?

JonM229
08-11-2010, 07:19 AM
The Daily Show weighs in on the issue. (http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/tue-august-10-2010-jason-bateman) They dedicated the first two segments to the Mosque.

Vincent
08-11-2010, 08:02 AM
Allah is just the Arabic word that means God. Jews and Christians who only speak Arabic call their God Allah as well.

You Jews are a stiff necked people. But then you'd have to be to weather what you have.

One of my favorite OT stories, and perhaps the best one to further illustrate that the God of Abraham couldn't possibly be the "deity" referred to as "Allah". is the story of the "golden calf" wherein y'all were first noted to be a stiff necked people.

Now get this. The Lord had delivered Israel from the bondage of Egypt and had led them out into the desert by presenting Himself as a pillar of fire.

Moses had left these pickleheads to their "own devices" while he went up on the mountain to meet with the Lord and receive the tablets. While he was up there, said pickleheads couldn't contain themselves and made God's recently anointed priest Aaron make them a calf to worship out of gold. Absolutely stunning. Then they made sacrifices to the calf and all got blitzed. Beyond stunning.

What might "Allah" have done here?

What did the Lord do?

7 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'
9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."

The two are of entirely different character. Even a stiff necked people should be able to see the difference.

7SteelGal43
08-11-2010, 12:31 PM
Mohammed thought the Jews and Christians of his day would receive him as a prophet. But the Bible says that any new revelation must agree with what is already established in Scripture (Isaiah 8:20). So they rejected his Allah as a false god. And Mohammed replied by setting his Islam on a permanent warpath against Judaism and Christianity that continues to this day......



BINGO ! Except it goes back even further than that. Since this has gone way beyond "To build or not to build (that is the question) a Mosque and ground zero" into "the finer differences between Judaism/Christianity -vs- Islam", let's go there.

You have Father Abraham (common to Judaism/Christianity and Islam). God (common to Judaism/Christianity and Islam) promised him a son. First, he had a son with Hagar, his wife's servant. That sons name was Ishmael. The descendants of Ishmael are the Arabs. Then he had a son with Sarah, his wife. That sons name was Isaac. The descendants of Isaac are the Jews. Jealousy and hatred developed toward Isaac (and his descendants) that lasts to this day. (If an American president thinks he's gonna sit down with the two groups and bring peace, he's sadly mistaken).

The God of the Bible (Jehovah) and Allah were almost certainly one in the same, up to this point at least. Disputes over which was actually the son of promise created two different sects. Enter Mohammed. As pointed out in the article, he 'prophesied' on behalf of a god (Allah) that did not line up with the established understanding of the God of the Bible. It was contrary to the scripture and contrary to prophecy long held and currently believed.

Are The God of the Bible and Allah (now) one in the same ? No. I don't believe so. Allah is a distortion of the true God of the Bible and Arabs (the descendants of Ishmael) are bastards. Hey, it's in the Bible, so don't get mad at me 'cause of it LOL !

Shoes
08-11-2010, 01:32 PM
Allah is just the Arabic word that means God. Jews and Christians who only speak Arabic call their God Allah as well. <snip>

While I can agree with the meaning here Jon, the real question should be (at the risk of going against forum rules of " Political discussions only").....IS ALLAH THE GOD OF BIBLE?

This study examines the crucial question that needs to be addressed which is whether the God presented in the Quran is indeed the same God revealed in the Holy Bible. The Quran alleges that the God of Islam, Allah, is indeed the God of Abraham and hence the God of Scripture, Yahweh Elohim. But is this the case?
Are we to assume that just because the Quran states that Allah is Yahweh of the Bible that both Jews and Christians are obligated to believe this to be true? Or do we examine the nature and attributes of Allah in order to compare them with the biblical portrait of Yahweh to find if this is the case?
This process of examination is essential since our objective is to discover the true nature of God, a process whose outcome entails eternal consequences in regards to man's future destiny in the afterlife. After all, if Allah is the God of Abraham then Jews and Christians are wrong for not embracing Islam. But if Allah is not Yahweh, then Muslims are not worshiping the same God only with a different name.
We will examine certain qualities of Allah as stated in the Quran and briefly compare them to Yahweh and see where the evidence leads us. The reason why we are comparing Allah to Yahweh as opposed to contrasting Yahweh to the quranic portrait of Allah, using the Quran as the standard, is due to the fact that it is Islam that claims to worship the same God of the Holy Bible. Thus, the burden of proof rests upon the Muslims to defend this contention since they believe Allah is the same as Yahweh.



http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm

venom
08-12-2010, 08:45 AM
I just bought 10 cases and will start pouring it around the area asap , lol
http://24.media.tumblr.com/Ni5izETPwffm5jtuLScMk2sko1_400.jpg

Mach1
08-12-2010, 11:34 AM
We could just hit em with a chemical attack. :lol:

http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/bacon-scented-spray.jpg

ricardisimo
08-12-2010, 01:47 PM
We could just hit em with a chemical attack. :lol:

http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/bacon-scented-spray.jpg

Crunchy Bacon Scent has been outlawed (or maybe just recalled (http://www.prismdurosport.com/news/smell-of-books-recall-announced.html)) you war criminal.

MasterOfPuppets
08-12-2010, 02:42 PM
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/TJStepp99/EveDoucheWithBacon.jpg

venom
08-12-2010, 03:35 PM
http://www.puppiesandflowers.com/blogimages/july07/baconIceCream.jpg

venom
08-12-2010, 03:37 PM
http://lifewithcake.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/french-toast-bacon-cupcake-4-450x340.jpg

SteelerEmpire
08-12-2010, 03:37 PM
A mosque built on the grounds of a formally attack site in the name of Islam is considered a victory for Islam according to tradition...

Would not be surprised if New Yorks Jews built an even bigger synagogue right across the street... lol...

ricardisimo
08-12-2010, 03:42 PM
Here's a few selections from a somewhat different view:

The Rise of America’s Idiot Culture: Right Wing Peddles Racist, Incompetent Attacks on Plan to Build Muslim Community Center Near Ground Zero
Posted on August 10, 2010 by Anthony DiMaggio

A substantial racist uproar is taking place in conservative America, particularly on right-wing radio and television. Reactionary pundits are drawing increased attention to plans to build an Islamic community center in downtown Manhattan, near Ground Zero. Republicans and conservatives have long been known to harbor more racist views of Islam, framing the entire religion as radical, fundamentalist, and a threat to national security. In light of this pattern, there’s little surprising about the right’s most recent attack on Muslim Americans as a secret, under the radar threat.

I’ve seen such phobias at Tea Party organizational meetings and in right wing media, where Islam is portrayed as the bedrock threat to American cultural values, and Muslims are depicted as uni-dimensionally set on overthrowing Christianity, enslaving the American public, and imposing “Sharia law.” The last warning about “Sharia law” – repeated by pundits like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh – among many others – comes off as extremely ignorant, considering that the term “Sharia” itself means Islamic law. One should take those who use the phrase “Sharia law” about as seriously as someone who masquerades as a legal scholar while talking about the importance of “American law law.”

...

Rather than asking whether the Manhattan community center represents a threat, we should be asking ourselves what happened to our country when national discourse is hijacked by those who not only have no interest in facts, but see facts as an active roadblock to advancing their racist agendas. The blatant racism and incompetence of those attacking the Manhattan community center should be obvious enough to those who pride themselves in promoting multi-culturalism, racial diversity, and respect for religious freedom. That the racist right remains so prominent in national television and radio is a sign, more than anything else, of the steep deterioration of American political discourse.

Nice summation, I thought. The entire article can be found here (http://www.media-ocracy.com/?p=1309).

Before I start getting flamed, I should make clear that I think all churches everywhere - of every denomination - should be banned. The entire surface planet has been the site of some religiously-motivated atrocity by this point (although mostly Christian ones, in all fairness) and any religious structure or monument should be considered offensive to all of us.

st33lersguy
08-12-2010, 04:11 PM
I find it interesting how the ignorant moron who wrote this hate article makes no mention about a mosque nor how the imam who wants to build this mosque said america was an accessory to 9/11 and wants it to be more sharia compliant, or that they could have built this mosque in many different vacancies. Of course these people like this left wing propoganda source don't use facts in gtheir stories only their ideology

ricardisimo
08-12-2010, 04:33 PM
I like how any criticism of the Fox end of the spectrum is always a "hate piece". It's curious to see how the Right has appropriated that language. It must really have wounded the conservative psyche to have been on the wrong side of the civil rights struggle for so long, because now everything is "hate".