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View Full Version : Arians; "We dont attack people"



XxKnightxX
02-09-2011, 09:18 PM
Uhh not trying to stir up any controversy, but are you shittin me?

"PITTSBURGH (93-7 The FAN) – Steelers offensive coordinator Bruce Arians spoke after the loss to the Green Bay Packers in Super Bowl XLV.
Arians said the offense didn’t get off to the start they wanted and hurt themselves in the first half.
Although the Packers were without cornerback Charles Woodson in the second half, Arians and the offense didn’t make any adjustments. He said he allows the quarterback to make plays and they don’t attack players."

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2011/02/07/arians-didnt-get-off-to-the-start-we-wanted/

pepsyman1
02-09-2011, 09:25 PM
Uhh not trying to stir up any controversy, but are you shittin me?

"PITTSBURGH (93-7 The FAN) – Steelers offensive coordinator Bruce Arians spoke after the loss to the Green Bay Packers in Super Bowl XLV.
Arians said the offense didn’t get off to the start they wanted and hurt themselves in the first half.
Although the Packers were without cornerback Charles Woodson in the second half, Arians and the offense didn’t make any adjustments. He said he allows the quarterback to make plays and they don’t attack players."

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2011/02/07/arians-didnt-get-off-to-the-start-we-wanted/

Um....I've tried to stay away from BA bashing because I thought he did a better job this year and we were a little better balanced, but that's maybe the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Teams already try to stay away from Ike most of the time, but when Bmac went out, Green Bay IMMEDIATELY started going after Gay. That's what good OC's are supposed to do. You attack the weakest link. I can't believe that BA would say that, worse, I can't believe he thinks that way.

zulater
02-09-2011, 09:27 PM
I'm not an Arians supporter, and I'm not enthralled with what he's quoted as saying there, but the fact of the matter is the Steelers moved the ball pretty damn effectivley for the most part in the second half.

Merchant
02-09-2011, 09:42 PM
You missed the rest of the quote...

"We don't attack people. We bubble-screen them to death."

tube517
02-09-2011, 09:43 PM
Yep, GB's defense is good but they aren't that good. You can move the ball on them just as much as on the Steelers D. The zone blitz has its weaknesses. They just got more TO's than we did. Bottom line.


I'm not an Arians supporter, and I'm not enthralled with what he's quoted as saying there, but the fact of the matter is the Steelers moved the ball pretty damn effectivley for the most part in the second half.

Chidi29
02-09-2011, 10:06 PM
We hear this line all the time. Ben has talked about still attempting to throw it at Revis (In other words, not attacking someone else). Besides, when they have three good corners, it's hard to attack anyone.

Besides, he wasn't the one who originally used the word "attack". He was simply answering a reporters question about attacking people. The reporter was the one who brought it up. Arians, in his usual candid self, answered.

Craic
02-09-2011, 10:30 PM
At first I thought to myself, that is pretty stupid. Of COURSE you go after a CB that is filling in.

Then, on second thought, I have to ask, is it wise to move away from our gameplan just because a player is out?

I mean, we put up 25 points. Would we have put that many points up if we switched to a full pass attack?

Devilsdancefloor
02-09-2011, 10:35 PM
At first I thought to myself, that is pretty stupid. Of COURSE you go after a CB that is filling in.

Then, on second thought, I have to ask, is it wise to move away from our gameplan just because a player is out?

I mean, we put up 25 points. Would we have put that many points up if we switched to a full pass attack?

personally i feel we gave up on the RUN after mendy fumbled it was working they where getting tired.

steelerdude15
02-09-2011, 10:47 PM
As I always say.... RUN THE BALL. They were running the ball effectively the second half and should have been doing it all game. As much as a threat our QB and WRs are, we should run the ball much more.... but that's just me.

7willBheaven
02-09-2011, 11:23 PM
He's said things like this and not changing the gameplan for when a Steelers player gets injured (even before the game) and so on. I think its kind of dumb myself...if a key person is out change your plan to fit that player instead of hoping he plays like the player who he is replacing. As far as attacking a weakness when an opponents player goes out...i dont think you would have to majorly change your gameplan...just try to maybe throw at the 3rd/4th string corner some and see what happens...or whatever the position might be. To flat out refuse to adapt or change is absurd.

NCSteeler
02-09-2011, 11:43 PM
This is a kin to "we don't practice against a 4-3", just Fin stupid. I HATE Belicheat but like they always say about him you MUST gamePLAN every team different. BUT Arians and by proxy Tomlin don't seem to get this. Lebeau dissects offenses to find the weakness and then he plans to ATTACK it in many ways. Arians seems to show up with the same plan every week.

Steeldude
02-10-2011, 12:18 AM
Um....I've tried to stay away from BA bashing because I thought he did a better job this year and we were a little better balanced, but that's maybe the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Teams already try to stay away from Ike most of the time, but when Bmac went out, Green Bay IMMEDIATELY started going after Gay. That's what good OC's are supposed to do. You attack the weakest link. I can't believe that BA would say that, worse, I can't believe he thinks that way.

it's almost as dumb as when arians admitted that before this year the steelers never prepared to play against 3-4(or was it 4-3) defenses. IMO, arians uses a grab-bag offense. it seems there is no rhyme or reason to which plays are picked. he has also admitted that his greed(going for the big play) has cost the steelers

HometownGal
02-10-2011, 06:42 AM
Meh. We can dissect and slice and dice all we want as to why we didn't run the ball more (and then some of you would have asked why the hell we didn't pass more :doh:) and "attack", but the glaring reason why the Pack were hoisting that Lombardi and the Steelers weren't comes down to the number 3. 3 turnovers. We put up 25 points on a pretty damned good defense and without those 3 gifts, would have won that game easily. That's the bottom line.

86WARD
02-10-2011, 06:50 AM
So when Woodson went out, a little bell didn't go off in Arians head? That's a problem...http://gridironfans.com/forums/images/smilies/default/icon_rolleyes.gif

86WARD
02-10-2011, 06:51 AM
Meh. We can dissect and slice and dice all we want as to why we didn't run the ball more (and then some of you would have asked why the hell we didn't pass more :doh:) and "attack", but the glaring reason why the Pack were hoisting that Lombardi and the Steelers weren't comes down to the number 3. 3 turnovers. We put up 25 points on a pretty damned good defense and without those 3 gifts, would have won that game easily. That's the bottom line.

QFT. Game was there to be had...and they were still in it with 2 minutes left despite the turnovers...that's what people are over looking the most. They were still in the fucking game...UGH!

Dino 6 Rings
02-11-2011, 12:37 PM
actually, they did "attack" by focussing more on the Run after the leading tackler for the Packers went out of the game. Woodson lead the Packers in tackles, once he left the game our Running game became much more effective. Then again, we got away from the running game and got all "greedy" or whatever, when we should have just rammed the ball down their throats because folks...that defense could not stop our running game and pretty much, everyone knows it.

that is really starting to piss me off all over again...I haven't been able to sit through the replay yet of the game, cause I know where our mistakes were made and watching us make them in real time hurt enough.

Dino 6 Rings
02-11-2011, 12:39 PM
QFT. Game was there to be had...and they were still in it with 2 minutes left despite the turnovers...that's what people are over looking the most. They were still in the fucking game...UGH!

which is the most painful thing. with -3 in turnovers, we were still in the fcking game with 2 mins left and the ball in our Franchise QB's hands with the need for a TD to win. The fact we over came those mistakes, and still had a chance, just fcking hurts. -3 in turnovers and still had a shot to win it in the end? that's just fcking painful.

st33lersguy
02-11-2011, 03:53 PM
Airhead Arians doesn't attack people because he is a moron and should have been fired sooner

Craic
02-11-2011, 05:03 PM
which is the most painful thing. with -3 in turnovers, we were still in the fcking game with 2 mins left and the ball in our Franchise QB's hands with the need for a TD to win. The fact we over came those mistakes, and still had a chance, just fcking hurts. -3 in turnovers and still had a shot to win it in the end? that's just fcking painful.

It does show just how effective our offense really is- when they lose 3 drives to turnovers, and still manage 3 touchdowns and a fieldgoal.

zulater
02-11-2011, 06:24 PM
which is the most painful thing. with -3 in turnovers, we were still in the fcking game with 2 mins left and the ball in our Franchise QB's hands with the need for a TD to win. The fact we over came those mistakes, and still had a chance, just fcking hurts. -3 in turnovers and still had a shot to win it in the end? that's just fcking painful.

Dino, a few months back you admonsihed me for my negative attitude, you told me I wasn't the sort of person you'd want to hang with or see a game with. I bristled at what you said at first, but then after giving it some thought, I decided you made some good points, and I should try to look at things with a more positive outlook and stop being so fatalistic. And I think my posts have reflected that attitude change since.

Well now I'm suggesting you take a bit of your own advice. Yeah I know, we lost this one, flip a few plays and a good chance maybe we win? It can be frustrating, no doubt.

But damnit, it's over, we can't change it, placing blame, pointing fingers, it does no good, the result is still the same. So you know what, it's time to get over it. We still had a great season, we still have a great team, and we still got a great future ahead of us.

I told my son when we were down 21-3, "it's a big hole, I don't know if they can climb out of it or not, but I'll bet you anything they wont quit, they'll make a game of it until the end." And they sure did. Imagine being a Bills fan in the 90's, not only did they lose 4 stright Super Bowls, they got absolutley disgraced in the last 3. If this Steelers team lacked character they could have easily quit like so many teams have in the past.

I also pointed out to my son that his Uncle Joe, who's 45 and a huge Eagle fan has never seen his team win a Super Bowl. My son, who will be 15 in May has seen his team win it all twice.

So being mad, or dissapointed isn't something I'm going to waste time with this offseason.


I hope eventually you'll feel the same. :drink:

JayC
02-12-2011, 11:17 AM
always has been a stubborn mofo that coordinates in his own little world but 2 super bowl appearances in 3 years i guess i can't hate on him as much as i want

SMR
02-12-2011, 03:20 PM
Dino, a few months back you admonsihed me for my negative attitude, you told me I wasn't the sort of person you'd want to hang with or see a game with. I bristled at what you said at first, but then after giving it some thought, I decided you made some good points, and I should try to look at things with a more positive outlook and stop being so fatalistic. And I think my posts have reflected that attitude change since.

Well now I'm suggesting you take a bit of your own advice. Yeah I know, we lost this one, flip a few plays and a good chance maybe we win? It can be frustrating, no doubt.

But damnit, it's over, we can't change it, placing blame, pointing fingers, it does no good, the result is still the same. So you know what, it's time to get over it. We still had a great season, we still have a great team, and we still got a great future ahead of us.

I told my son when we were down 21-3, "it's a big hole, I don't know if they can climb out of it or not, but I'll bet you anything they wont quit, they'll make a game of it until the end." And they sure did. Imagine being a Bills fan in the 90's, not only did they lose 4 stright Super Bowls, they got absolutley disgraced in the last 3. If this Steelers team lacked character they could have easily quit like so many teams have in the past.

I also pointed out to my son that his Uncle Joe, who's 45 and a huge Eagle fan has never seen his team win a Super Bowl. My son, who will be 15 in May has seen his team win it all twice.

So being mad, or dissapointed isn't something I'm going to waste time with this offseason.


I hope eventually you'll feel the same. :drink:

And the student becomes the teacher.

HometownGal
02-12-2011, 04:13 PM
always has been a stubborn mofo that coordinates in his own little world but 2 super bowl appearances in 3 years i guess i can't hate on him as much as i want

I don't get why the hell people hate on him to begin with!!! His game plan was just fine in XLV - he didn't make the 3 turnovers or commit the killer penalties. Is he HC material? Nope - don't think so, but as far as being a good OC goes, I'm quite satisfied with his overall job performance and obviously so are the Rooneys and Tomlin which really is all that matters.

Texasteel
02-12-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't get why the hell people hate on him to begin with!!! His game plan was just fine in XLV - he didn't make the 3 turnovers or commit the killer penalties. Is he HC material? Nope - don't think so, but as far as being a good OC goes, I'm quite satisfied with his overall job performance and obviously so are the Rooneys and Tomlin which really is all that matters.


BA did a good job all year, and put together a SB that could have easily won the game for us. He may have made some mistakes, but did he make more than Tomlin and LaBeau? I don't think so anyway. I really believe we would still be getting quite a bit of Arians criticism if we had won the game.

HometownGal
02-12-2011, 05:45 PM
BA did a good job all year, and put together a SB that could have easily won the game for us. He may have made some mistakes, but did he make more than Tomlin and LaBeau? I don't think so anyway. I really believe we would still be getting quite a bit of Arians criticism if we had won the game.

I agree totally. I think some of the unfounded hate is because people, in general, don't like change. BA got away from the 80-20 run/pass game because the Steelers finally have a total QB - not a stooge who just stands there like a dunce and hands off the ball. Do you think the Rooneys put up $102 mil for Ben to hand off the ball 60 times a game? DUH. :doh: If they wanted a statute with a flexible arm, they could have saved the $102 mil and paid Batch his $2 mil per season to do that or hire a chimp from the local zoo. I think you'd have to be blind and a total dolt not to see that the NFL has evolved into more of a pass-favored league. This isn't the 1970's and 80's where people could name every single solitary RB in the league but couldn't name more than 3 NFL QB's.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-12-2011, 05:55 PM
1st down and 10 from your own 7 yard line. Why not try and "attack" with a slow developing play from your own end zone that results in a pick 6??

Then after getting to the Packers 30 yard line, you call 3 successive pass plays that go incomplete, for a loss, then a sack and have your kicker try to make a 52 yard FG. IMO, Arians called a bad series there and Tomlin made a poor choice trying to kick the long FG.

Coaches dont play the game or make plays or mistakes. Their job is to put their players in the best position to make plays and succeed. I think that XLV wasnt that great of a job in doing that.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 06:00 PM
1st down and 10 from your own 7 yard line. Why not try and "attack" with a slow developing play from your own end zone that results in a pick 6??



Actually, the call was an excellent one. Have Wallace run a go when facing nine in the box and a single high safety playing the middle of the field and hoping he stays in the middle with crossing patterns by your other receivers on the left side? That sounds good to me.

How about our QB doesn't pump fake Colllins to the direction he's going to throw it.

Texasteel
02-12-2011, 06:14 PM
That play would have worked for big yardage had not their D-line make a very good play on our best guard. I still think our coaches did very well in this game.

HometownGal
02-12-2011, 06:49 PM
Actually, the call was an excellent one. Have Wallace run a go when facing nine in the box and a single high safety playing the middle of the field and hoping he stays in the middle with crossing patterns by your other receivers on the left side? That sounds good to me.

How about our QB doesn't pump fake Colllins to the direction he's going to throw it.

Good post, Chidi. The pump fake was the killer on that play and as much as it pains me, I have to give props to Howard Green for bull rushing both Kemo and Ben, disrupting his throw and to Collins for being in the right place at the right time.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 08:40 PM
Good post, Chidi. The pump fake was the killer on that play and as much as it pains me, I have to give props to Howard Green for bull rushing both Kemo and Ben, disrupting his throw and to Collins for being in the right place at the right time.

Yup. And if Ben doesn't pump, Green isn't able to collapse the pocket.

Arians was the last thing that was wrong with that play.

I guess some people just want to run against nine in the box all day....then complain when we "run, run, pass".

zulater
02-12-2011, 09:19 PM
Yup. And if Ben doesn't pump, Green isn't able to collapse the pocket.

Arians was the last thing that was wrong with that play.

I guess some people just want to run against nine in the box all day....then complain when we "run, run, pass".

So you somehow know the pump fake wasn't part of the design of the play? That the idea of the play was to go for the home run ball to Wallace after influening the coverage to the other side of the field with the pump? Possible?

Look I'm not saying it was a bad play call, all I'm saying is that there's an inherent risk you take any time you drop your qb into the end zone. The play call derserves part of the blame for the result of the play, just as Ben and Kemo do as well.

It makes me laugh that we go from one extreme to the other, somehow it's ok to say maybe a player screwed up or could have done something better, but god forbid we suggest Arians might have some cuplability for something that went wrong. Hell I'd bet if you asked Bruce himself if he could have a few plays to call over again and you caught him in a honest moment he'd probably say he might have been better to run the ball on that first down from the 7, and that he might have mixed in a run somehwere after we had attained first down yardage at the Packers 29 in the 3rd quarter preceeding the 52 yard fg miss.

No one person person( player or coach) is to blame for that loss, but at the same token very few were blameless either. Bruce has his place in the blame line right along with everyone else.

zulater
02-12-2011, 09:22 PM
Actually, the call was an excellent one. Have Wallace run a go when facing nine in the box and a single high safety playing the middle of the field and hoping he stays in the middle with crossing patterns by your other receivers on the left side? That sounds good to me.

How about our QB doesn't pump fake Colllins to the direction he's going to throw it.

Yeah it's all Ben's fault.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 09:34 PM
So you somehow know the pump fake wasn't part of the design of the play? That the idea of the play was to go for the home run ball to Wallace after influening the coverage to the other side of the field with the pump? Possible?

Look I'm not saying it was a bad play call, all I'm saying is that there's an inherent risk you take any time you drop your qb into the end zone. The play call derserves part of the blame for the result of the play, just as Ben and Kemo do as well.

It makes me laugh that we go from one extreme to the other, somehow it's ok to say maybe a player screwed up or could have done something better, but god forbid we suggest Arians might have some cuplability for something that went wrong. Hell I'd bet if you asked Bruce himself if he could have a few plays to call over again and you caught him in a honest moment he'd probably say he might have been better to run the ball on that first down from the 7, and that he might have mixed in a run somehwere after we had attained first down yardage at the Packers 29 in the 3rd quarter preceeding the 52 yard fg miss.

No one person person( player or coach) is to blame for that loss, but at the same token very few were blameless either. Bruce has his place in the blame line right along with everyone else.

Two issues with that first thought.

We all know Ben pump fakes. A lot. And it showed back up in the playoffs. It's safe to assume that is his doing.

Ben didn't pump to the other side of the field. Here's a link to the play. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o1nuyR95Q8

He pumps to the left side of the field. As soon as Collins sees that, he breaks to his left thinking Ben is going to go deep to Wallace. Gives him an extra few steps to get over to the sideline.

I've blamed Arians in the pass. I've said I haven't been completely happy with the offense. In my analysis, I pointed out flaws that are on Arians. Heck, on that play, I said I didn't like the route combinations from Ward and Spaeth. They were too close together. That is Arians' fault.

I'm not afraid to give him flack. Too little do I see the anti-Arians guys blaming Ben.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 09:35 PM
Yeah it's all Ben's fault.

It's a close split between Ben and Kemoeatu. A little on Ward too. Couldn't get separation on Woodson.

The last person to blame on the play is Arians.

zulater
02-12-2011, 09:36 PM
Two issues with that first thought.

We all know Ben pump fakes. A lot. And it showed back up in the playoffs. It's safe to assume that is his doing.

Ben didn't pump to the other side of the field. Here's a link to the play. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o1nuyR95Q8

He pumps to the left side of the field. As soon as Collins sees that, he breaks to his left thinking Ben is going to go deep to Wallace. Gives him an extra few steps to get over to the sideline.

I've blamed Arians in the pass. I've said I haven't been completely happy with the offense. In my analysis, I pointed out flaws that are on Arians. Heck, on that play, I said I didn't like the route combinations from Ward and Spaeth. They were too close together. That is Arians' fault.

I'm not afraid to give him flack. Too little do I see the anti-Arians guys blaming Ben.

I guess it's because we think this team could probably survive without Bruce a little easiar than it could without Ben.

zulater
02-12-2011, 09:38 PM
It's a close split between Ben and Kemoeatu. A little on Ward too. Couldn't get separation on Woodson.

The last person to blame on the play is Arians.

Bullshit, passing out of the endzone is always a risky proposition.

zulater
02-12-2011, 09:46 PM
So tell me chidi, who among us doesn't know that Ben can sometimes hold on to the ball too long, and isn't always as cognizant as he should be to where he's at on the field? Remember the divisional playoff game against the Ravens, Ben's triple pumps and has the ball knocked out of his hand by Suggs, touchdown Ravens? So shouldn't his OC realize that dropping Ben into the end zone to pass came with great risk?

Arians is partially to blame for that pick 6 too.

:coffee:

Craic
02-12-2011, 09:57 PM
I have three problems with the play in question.

1. Kemo's problem: He got man-handled.

2. Arian's problem: There were 7 men IN the box, with 2 just outside it. The deep ball was a brilliant call, seeing as we often run when we are a. down deep in our own zone and b. on first down. However, With that many guys in the box, they are obviously anticipating a run. Why is there no play action? Don't give me the "no time" argument, because up until that point in time, we held their offense cold against the pass. A play action would have sucked the Safeties up to the line in run support, and would have also slowed down the pass rush.

3. Ben's choice of throw: You have Mendy on a curl pattern already looking back for the ball. If the ball is put out in front of him for him to go get it, he has a first down plus before he is met by a Packer.

-- Ben's pump fake: This is actually not as bad of a issue as people are making it out to be. If Ben doesn't get hit, that pump fake pulls the safety AND the CB Shallow in the route, enabling Wallace to get behind them and turn on the jets. I think that was an intended play by both Arians and Ben to free up Wallace.

So, do I blame Arians? He gets some blame in the "this play-call wasn't quite as good as that play call would have been" category.
Do I blame Ben? He gets some blame in the "Let's make sure we get the big strike" category, instead of checking down.
But the most blame goes to Kemo. He simply choked on the play, causing the errant pass and the pic six.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 09:57 PM
Bullshit, passing out of the endzone is always a risky proposition.

So you're saying the only option is to run the ball? Even when they have nine in the box as they did? What does that accomplish? Run twice for no gain and then have to throw on 3rd and 8 when Green Bay knows you're going to have to air it out and they can pin their ears back?

Great plan.

Hey diddle diddle, Mendenhall up the middle.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 09:58 PM
So tell me chidi, who among us doesn't know that Ben can sometimes hold on to the ball too long, and isn't always as cognizant as he should be to where he's at on the field? Remember the divisional playoff game against the Ravens, Ben's triple pumps and has the ball knocked out of his hand by Suggs, touchdown Ravens? So shouldn't his OC realize that dropping Ben into the end zone to pass came with great risk?

Arians is partially to blame for that pick 6 too.

:coffee:

Again, your solution is to never pass out of your own end zone.

The people that don't like Arians say he's too predictable. You'd be the most predictable OC ever.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:02 PM
I have three problems with the play in question.

1. Kemo's problem: He got man-handled.

2. Arian's problem: There were 7 men IN the box, with 2 just outside it. The deep ball was a brilliant call, seeing as we often run when we are a. down deep in our own zone and b. on first down. However, With that many guys in the box, they are obviously anticipating a run. Why is there no play action? Don't give me the "no time" argument, because up until that point in time, we held their offense cold against the pass. A play action would have sucked the Safeties up to the line in run support, and would have also slowed down the pass rush.

3. Ben's choice of throw: You have Mendy on a curl pattern already looking back for the ball. If the ball is put out in front of him for him to go get it, he has a first down plus before he is met by a Packer.

-- Ben's pump fake: This is actually not as bad of a issue as people are making it out to be. If Ben doesn't get hit, that pump fake pulls the safety AND the CB Shallow in the route, enabling Wallace to get behind them and turn on the jets. I think that was an intended play by both Arians and Ben to free up Wallace.

So, do I blame Arians? He gets some blame in the "this play-call wasn't quite as good as that play call would have been" category.
Do I blame Ben? He gets some blame in the "Let's make sure we get the big strike" category, instead of checking down.
But the most blame goes to Kemo. He simply choked on the play, causing the errant pass and the pic six.

We shouldn't have to use play action to complete a pass when they're already expecting run. The playaction isn't going to accomplish much considering all but two players are at or near the line. The safety probably wouldn't bite either. He knows his assignment. Nothing over your head. There's enough guys in the box to stop the run.

The pump fake probably isn't fooling the CB. It's hard to say for sure, but I'm guessing he isn't looking in the backfield and is running with Wallace. If you're a cornerback and see Wallace running full speed downfield, you better turn around and sprint with him.

We already saw what the pump did to the safety. Didn't suck him in. It gave him a few extra steps to get over to Wallace's side.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:02 PM
So you're saying the only option is to run the ball? Even when they have nine in the box as they did? What does that accomplish? Run twice for no gain and then have to throw on 3rd and 8 when Green Bay knows you're going to have to air it out and they can pin their ears back?

Great plan.

Hey diddle diddle, Mendenhall up the middle.

So you're saying we never run the ball successfully against a stacked defense? That two or 3 yards isn't prefferable to a pick six or safety? That you absolutley cant' run it there? Geez I think I could find several plays that proves your little theory wrong.

And you know what, a punt isn't always the worst thing is it? Especially early in the game. Damn well beats what happened, doesn't it.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:07 PM
So you're saying we never run the ball successfully against a stacked defense? That two or 3 yards isn't prefferable to a pick six or safety? That you absolutley cant' run it there? Geez I think I could find several plays that proves your little theory wrong.

And you know what, a punt isn't always the worst thing is it? Especially early in the game. Damn well beats what happened, doesn't it.

If Arians had his crystal ball knowing there would be a pick six, he would have called a run. I guess he forgot to pack it with all the riots outside of his house and all.

Odds are, aren't going to have success running against a stacked defense. Running the ball certainly doesn't make sense there.

I'd rather try to pass than run the ball against that defensive look. No doubt about it and I don't understand how you can disagree with that. Without using hindsight, of course.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:07 PM
Again, your solution is to never pass out of your own end zone.

The people that don't like Arians say he's too predictable. You'd be the most predictable OC ever.

Sometimes predictable isn't the worst thing you can be. It's probably what saved our ass in the first four games of the season.

Look I'm ok with the play call, really, but it didn't work, and when it doesn't work it's part of the problem. There was a known risk throwing from the end zone. Period. Arians is partially to blame for the result. Just like he derserves a fair portion of the credit for the plays that worked throughout the game he deserves some blame for the ones that don't, particuarly when you consider the history of your quarterback.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:13 PM
If Arians had his crystal ball knowing there would be a pick six, he would have called a run. I guess he forgot to pack it with all the riots outside of his house and all.

Odds are, aren't going to have success running against a stacked defense. Running the ball certainly doesn't make sense there.

I'd rather try to pass than run the ball against that defensive look. No doubt about it and I don't understand how you can disagree with that. Without using hindsight, of course.

Stacked defense or not, the Packers stopped us about 3 times all game when we ran, many of our successfull runs came in predicatable situations. Our offensive line and running backs were mostly winning the little battles throughout the game. I think there's a damn good chance we could have run the ball successfully in that situation.

Also there's this little thing called a 3 step drop or even a 5 step drop that we could have used instead of dropping Ben into the end zone. At least then if he didn't like what he saw he would have had the option to take a sack or risk throwing the ball away and not be worried about the safety.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:23 PM
I think I'm pretty safe in saying that former Giants, and Steelers OC Rod Earhardt would have never had Ben throw in that situation.

Craic
02-12-2011, 10:27 PM
We shouldn't have to use play action to complete a pass when they're already expecting run. The playaction isn't going to accomplish much considering all but two players are at or near the line. The safety probably wouldn't bite either. He knows his assignment. Nothing over your head. There's enough guys in the box to stop the run.

Play action sucks the one safety in further and forces the other safety to take a step to cover the other safeties man, or at the very least, freezes both safeties for a second. More importantly, play action against a 3-4 team freezes the Dline and makes them think gap containment more than rush. The half a second needed to complete that pass would have been accomplished right there. Against a 4-3 team, you can still rush and contain the gap, as every D lineman is worried only about 1 gap, and their rush can fill it.


The pump fake probably isn't fooling the CB. It's hard to say for sure, but I'm guessing he isn't looking in the backfield and is running with Wallace. If you're a cornerback and see Wallace running full speed downfield, you better turn around and sprint with him.

It just depends on the route run. If Wallace is trying to sell quick-route, the pump fake closes the sale. Now, look at the youtube video again. Wallace takes off, he is not encumbered with the DB, who is about 10 yards off him. Yet, it take Wallace just over 4 seconds to get just 30 yards down field. Wallace is MUCH faster than that. With no other film on him, I have to say that he may have tried to sell another route-maybe not. But the time vs. speed doesn't quite measure up.


We already saw what the pump did to the safety. Didn't suck him in. It gave him a few extra steps to get over to Wallace's side.
No, it absolutely sucked him in, it brought him to the shallow side of Wallace's route. There is NO way the safety is catching wallace if that pass is put where it was intended. That is EXACTLY why, when Ben's momentum was interrupted and the ball fell short, the safety was able to catch it.

Again, watch the video, you will see that safety VERY deep. He is already moving FORWARD when the ball is still in the air, before it reaches it top part of the arc (figure half way through the throw, which is when you can judge it's distance), there is simply no way he would have challenged Wallace when if that ball was put where it was meant to be thrown.

Craic
02-12-2011, 10:28 PM
Stacked defense or not, the Packers stopped us about 3 times all game when we ran, many of our successfull runs came in predicatable situations. Our offensive line and running backs were mostly winning the little battles throughout the game. I think there's a damn good chance we could have run the ball successfully in that situation.

Also there's this little thing called a 3 step drop or even a 5 step drop that we could have used instead of dropping Ben into the end zone. At least then if he didn't like what he saw he would have had the option to take a sack or risk throwing the ball away and not be worried about the safety.

Except, up to that point in the game, there was no reason to expect that GB's front seven would get anywhere close to Ben.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:29 PM
Gee how did the safety get all the way back there anyway Preach, I thought Chidi said they had 12 in the box or something like that? :chuckle: :wink02:

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:29 PM
Stacked defense or not, the Packers stopped us about 3 times all game when we ran, many of our successfull runs came in predicatable situations. Our offensive line and running backs were mostly winning the little battles throughout the game. I think there's a damn good chance we could have run the ball successfully in that situation.

Also there's this little thing called a 3 step drop or even a 5 step drop that we could have used instead of dropping Ben into the end zone. At least then if he didn't like what he saw he would have had the option to take a sack or risk throwing the ball away and not be worried about the safety.

It's not about just predictable situations but about the defensive set.

If it's the job of an OC to call plays that will counter the defense, why do you have an issue with the decision to pass? Arians has been called out on time and time again for being predictable or not adjusting or not "feeling the game" (whatever that is supposed to mean). When he adjusts as you guys have been asking for, it's still his fault. The guy can't win.

The deep ball is a really good call there because of the coverage. A deep drop is required. The Packers do have the box stacked but it doesn't mean they're going to bring the house. I'm always hesistant of a quick drop and throw against an exotic scheme. Get a LB, or as the Bears saw, a NT, dropping back into one of those throwing lanes, and there's trouble.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:30 PM
I think I'm pretty safe in saying that former Giants, and Steelers OC Rod Earhardt would have never had Ben throw in that situation.

Didn't everyone hate that guy?

Come to think of it, haven't you guys hated every OC ever? I'm sure there were "Fire Tom Moore" chants back in the 80s.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:31 PM
Gee how did the safety get all the way back there anyway Preach, I thought Chidi said they had 12 in the box or something like that? :chuckle: :wink02:

I know you're joking around, but to be clear, I said there was a deep safety.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:33 PM
Except, up to that point in the game, there was no reason to expect that GB's front seven would get anywhere close to Ben.

I don't want to make too big a deal out of it, because you can't change things after the fact, but I thought at the time and continue to think we could have imposed our will with the ground game against that team practically any time we wanted or needed to. Just my sense of that particuliar game.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:34 PM
I know you're joking around, but to be clear, I said there was a deep safety.

So why are you so convinced that Mendenhall couldn't have run for 3-5 yards on first down?

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:36 PM
Didn't everyone hate that guy?

Come to think of it, haven't you guys hated every OC ever? I'm sure there were "Fire Tom Moore" chants back in the 80s.

No I liked Earhardt, Chan Gailey, and Whisenhunt as Steeler offensive coordinaters. I also thought Mularkey was good for his first couple seasons, but got too pass happy with Maddox in 2003. I'd take any one of them over Arians.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:45 PM
Before I go to bed I just want to make sure one person we haven't mentioned here gets his share of the blame for the pick 6. That would be Ryan Mundy, who's needless penalty on the kick return, which in no way aided Antonio Brown's return on the kickoff, I promise there was no way Mundy's man would have laid a finger on Brown, his angle was terrible and his momentum was in the proccess of taking him out of the play when dumb ass Mundy shoved him. So anyway that possession should have started at our own 43 instead of the 7. :frusty:

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:47 PM
So why are you so convinced that Mendenhall couldn't have run for 3-5 yards on first down?

Because there were nine guys around the line of scrimmage. Only two Packers were playing deep.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:47 PM
Before I go to bed I just want to make sure one person we haven't mentioned here gets his share of the blame for the pick 6. That would be Ryan Mundy, who's needless penalty on the kick return, which in no way aided Antonio Brown's return on the kickoff, I promise there was no way Mundy's man would have laid a finger on Brown, his angle was terrible and his momentum was in the proccess of taking him out of the play when dumb ass Mundy shoved him. So anyway that possession should have started at our own 43 instead of the 7. :frusty:

That's one thing we both can agree on. Excellent point.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:49 PM
Because there were nine guys around the line of scrimmage. Only two Packers were playing deep.

So were there when Mewelde ran for 7 on 3rd and 1.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:49 PM
Preacher,

I'll respond to your reply tomorrow. I'm off to bed as well.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 10:51 PM
So were there when Mewelde ran for 7 on 3rd and 1.

And it took a lot of doing to get that one yard. He had to bounce it outside pretty majorly when the play was designed to go up the guy if I remember correctly.

And when it's 3rd and 1, you're looking for just that yard. You'll take that and the first down everytime. I don't want a 2nd and 9 if I can help it.

Two different situations zulater and you're smart enough to recognize that.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:56 PM
That's one thing we both can agree on. Excellent point.

Honestly the two plays that bothered me most that whole game were the two penalties we took on special teams that cost us field position at the worst time possible. I honestly believe those two penalties could have spelled the difference in the game.

zulater
02-12-2011, 10:59 PM
And it took a lot of doing to get that one yard. He had to bounce it outside pretty majorly when the play was designed to go up the guy if I remember correctly.

And when it's 3rd and 1, you're looking for just that yard. You'll take that and the first down everytime. I don't want a 2nd and 9 if I can help it.

Two different situations zulater and you're smart enough to recognize that.

I guess my point is that

A. I would have liked to buy a few extra yards before attempting a pass.

B. A punt from the 10 yard line on out wouldn't have been the worst thing there.

There actually are times that playing not to lose makes sense.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 11:02 PM
I guess my point is that

A. I would have liked to buy a few extra yards before attempting a pass.

B. A punt from the 10 yard line on out wouldn't have been the worst thing there.

There actually are times that playing not to lose makes sense.

And my point is.

There was a good defensive matchup. We should try and exploit that. Play to win. That's what got us to that point.

Chidi29
02-12-2011, 11:02 PM
Honestly the two plays that bothered me most that whole game were the two penalties we took on special teams that cost us field position at the worst time possible. I honestly believe those two penalties could have spelled the difference in the game.

You'll get no argument from me. With you 100% of the way.

zulater
02-12-2011, 11:17 PM
And my point is.

There was a good defensive matchup. We should try and exploit that. Play to win. That's what got us to that point.

Chidi, we had 8 offensive possessions in the playoffs where we started inside our own 15 yard line.

We ran on 1st and second down on five of those possessions.

Not once did tragedy come out of the series, in fact we didn't even give up a score on the resulting punt after those possessions ended either.( only 2 were 3 and outs, though none resulted in a Steeler score)


3 times we passed or attempted to pass on possessions that originated inside our 15 yard line.

Twice we gave up defensive touchdowns in those series.

Risk reward my friend, risk reward.

zulater
02-13-2011, 06:11 AM
Let me close out what i want to say pertinent to this topic this way.

If I were to make a blame pie for that pick 6 I would divvy up the slices thusly. 50% would go to Ryan Mundy for putting us in the stink to begin with. 25% would go to Chris Kemoeatu who was totally abused on the play. 10% would go to Ben, because somehow, someway he's got to do a better job of sensing the pressure and getting rid of the ball safely. 10% would go to B. A. because there is an associated risk calling a play that has your qb taking a deep enough drop to be throwing from the end zone in a non desperation situation. And the last sliver of our blame pie (5%) goes to everyone on the rest of the offense for not making the tackle.

Seriously getting back to B.A.'s role in the play, making that play call from there, knowing your offensive personell, is akin to driving 10 mph over the posted speed limit on the interstate. More often than not you get away with it, others are doing worse without consequence, and it seemed like a good idea at the time, you really felt you needed to make up a couple extra minutes in the moment. But if you get pulled over and ticketed you really only have yourself to blame in the end, because there was an associated risk with your actions, and upon reflection time wasn't really that much against you at that point anyway.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 09:23 AM
Play action sucks the one safety in further and forces the other safety to take a step to cover the other safeties man, or at the very least, freezes both safeties for a second. More importantly, play action against a 3-4 team freezes the Dline and makes them think gap containment more than rush. The half a second needed to complete that pass would have been accomplished right there. Against a 4-3 team, you can still rush and contain the gap, as every D lineman is worried only about 1 gap, and their rush can fill it.



It just depends on the route run. If Wallace is trying to sell quick-route, the pump fake closes the sale. Now, look at the youtube video again. Wallace takes off, he is not encumbered with the DB, who is about 10 yards off him. Yet, it take Wallace just over 4 seconds to get just 30 yards down field. Wallace is MUCH faster than that. With no other film on him, I have to say that he may have tried to sell another route-maybe not. But the time vs. speed doesn't quite measure up.

No, it absolutely sucked him in, it brought him to the shallow side of Wallace's route. There is NO way the safety is catching wallace if that pass is put where it was intended. That is EXACTLY why, when Ben's momentum was interrupted and the ball fell short, the safety was able to catch it.

Again, watch the video, you will see that safety VERY deep. He is already moving FORWARD when the ball is still in the air, before it reaches it top part of the arc (figure half way through the throw, which is when you can judge it's distance), there is simply no way he would have challenged Wallace when if that ball was put where it was meant to be thrown.

The other safety is irrelevant. He's already on the line. He's not going to get sucked in much further. Collins isn't moving much during the play anyway. He's just watching Ben's eyes.

Instead of blaming Arians for the lack of playaction that led to the pocket collapsing, why not put the blame on the person that made the mistake? For a guy as big as Kemoeatu is, he is so weak. Put the responsibility on the individual.

Wallace didn't have to be running a sluggo just because he isn't at midfield by the time he reappears in the frame. It could have been an attempted double move. Either the corner didn't bite on it, or he bit on it and then immediately turned and ran because he felt like he was about to get beat. Either way, I highly doubt the cornerback is looking at the QB when Wallace is running downfield. He can let the safety watch him.

Exactly, there is no way the safety is going to get over there in time on a well-thrown ball. He's in the middle of the field, Wallace is down the left sideline. Collins is not running, again, he's watching the QBs eyes. The only person Ben has to manipulate is the safety. Make it look like you're going to hit the cross. Heath is running a corner down the right side; if you want to pump, pump to that side of the field and then come back to Wallace.

But pumping to the playside benefits nothing and only gives Collins a bit of a running start over to Wallace's side. Either pump fake away or don't pump at all.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 09:30 AM
Chidi, we had 8 offensive possessions in the playoffs where we started inside our own 15 yard line.

We ran on 1st and second down on five of those possessions.

Not once did tragedy come out of the series, in fact we didn't even give up a score on the resulting punt after those possessions ended either.( only 2 were 3 and outs, though none resulted in a Steeler score)


3 times we passed or attempted to pass on possessions that originated inside our 15 yard line.

Twice we gave up defensive touchdowns in those series.

Risk reward my friend, risk reward.

Again zulater, you're using the worst thing you can to judge an OC. Hindsight.

You're loooking at the results after the fact. That's not known to Arians on that play. You have to think about it form his perspective. He doesn't have the benefit of owning a crystal ball. Sometimes, I think you guys believe he has one.

The other factor of hindsight was that was the first drive we had inside the 15. Our other two drives started at out 36 and 20. There was nothing for Arians to base that down and distance off of.

What should you go on? Go by defensive set, by the matchups. Passing is the right call.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 09:33 AM
Let me close out what i want to say pertinent to this topic this way.

If I were to make a blame pie for that pick 6 I would divvy up the slices thusly. 50% would go to Ryan Mundy for putting us in the stink to begin with. 25% would go to Chris Kemoeatu who was totally abused on the play. 10% would go to Ben, because somehow, someway he's got to do a better job of sensing the pressure and getting rid of the ball safely. 10% would go to B. A. because there is an associated risk calling a play that has your qb taking a deep enough drop to be throwing from the end zone in a non desperation situation. And the last sliver of our blame pie (5%) goes to everyone on the rest of the offense for not making the tackle.

Seriously getting back to B.A.'s role in the play, making that play call from there, knowing your offensive personell, is akin to driving 10 mph over the posted speed limit on the interstate. More often than not you get away with it, others are doing worse without consequence, and it seemed like a good idea at the time, you really felt you needed to make up a couple extra minutes in the moment. But if you get pulled over and ticketed you really only have yourself to blame in the end, because there was an associated risk with your actions, and upon reflection time wasn't really that much against you at that point anyway.

Geez, you sure seem to be up in arms over a guy who you only put 1/10 of the blame on.

Where are the "Cut Ryan Mundy" threads?

Where are the interviews from Mundy with titles that skew what was actually said in order to generate a negative headline?

If I had to divy up the blame, I'd go.

60% Ben
15% Kemoeatu
15% Mundy
5% Ward
5% Arians

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-13-2011, 11:02 AM
Actually, the call was an excellent one. Have Wallace run a go when facing nine in the box and a single high safety playing the middle of the field and hoping he stays in the middle with crossing patterns by your other receivers on the left side? That sounds good to me.

How about our QB doesn't pump fake Colllins to the direction he's going to throw it.

So if he pumps the other side of the field... what happens??? Possibly Ben has his feet set right and then has to set them left, taking a fraction longer than what he did and the D lineman gets on him even faster.

I dont think you call a slow developing play from the shadow of your own goalpost. Just like I dont think you call a draw from your endzone where the Jets Jason Taylor can tackle the RB for a loss and cause a safety.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 11:05 AM
So if he pumps the other side of the field... what happens??? Possibly Ben has his feet set right and then has to set them left, taking a fraction longer than what he did and the D lineman gets on him even faster.

I dont think you call a slow developing play from the shadow of your own goalpost. Just like I dont think you call a draw from your endzone where the Jets Jason Taylor can tackle the RB for a loss and cause a safety.

Pumping away from where you are going to throw is better than pumping to the side that you are. I'd rather have him not pump at al but if you are going to do it, do it to the other side.

The draw against the Jets was not a slow developing play. It took the same amount of time as a regular handoff.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-13-2011, 11:22 AM
Pumping away from where you are going to throw is better than pumping to the side that you are. I'd rather have him not pump at al but if you are going to do it, do it to the other side.

The draw against the Jets was not a slow developing play. It took the same amount of time as a regular handoff.

Any play that requires you to pump fake from your own end zone is taking too long and risking the possibility of a sack, hold in the end zone or what happened. IMO. I would have rather seen something more like a quick slant or play action pass to Miller until they got some more room.

The Jets safety was a counter from shotgun formation behind a pulling guard. It does take longer than a regular "give" from under center and would not have opened a rush lane like pulling a guard did. Even a quick pass where Ben has the option to throw the ball away was a better option than that play.

Getting too cute and being too cocky beneath your own goalpost isnt a recipe for success.

zulater
02-13-2011, 11:33 AM
Geez, you sure seem to be up in arms over a guy who you only put 1/10 of the blame on.

Where are the "Cut Ryan Mundy" threads?

Where are the interviews from Mundy with titles that skew what was actually said in order to generate a negative headline?

If I had to divy up the blame, I'd go.

60% Ben
15% Kemoeatu
15% Mundy
5% Ward
5% Arians

Who said I was up in arms over Arains play call there anyway? My only point was that it was in fact a risky play call, and anytime you take a risk you bear some responsability if the outcome is unfavorable. I'd also like to add there are some times that you're forced into making risky play calls, this wasn't one of them. Arains deserves his share of the blame.

zulater
02-13-2011, 11:47 AM
Again zulater, you're using the worst thing you can to judge an OC. Hindsight.

You're loooking at the results after the fact. That's not known to Arians on that play. You have to think about it form his perspective. He doesn't have the benefit of owning a crystal ball. Sometimes, I think you guys believe he has one.

The other factor of hindsight was that was the first drive we had inside the 15. Our other two drives started at out 36 and 20. There was nothing for Arians to base that down and distance off of.

What should you go on? Go by defensive set, by the matchups. Passing is the right call.

You ever hear of foresight? The understanding what risks are good ones and when to take them comes into play here as well. We've had problems protecting the passer all season. Ben is known to hold the ball too long in an effort to make a play. Knowing this a conservative approach would have been more advisable.

Look at it this way, say Kemo, knowing he's beat drags down Green, but now with Green not pressuring Ben he gets off a good pass and we have a big gainer. But oh no, flag on the field, Kemo got nailed for the hold, safety on the Steelers.

So in other words Ben does his job, alll the receivers do their's, but any one offensive lineman gets beat, you're at a big risk for a safety either through the hold or via a sack or grounding.

So I just can't buy your assessment that Ben bears 60% of the blame, given the fact that the pressure was so immediate and a sack there results in worse disaster than even what we ended up with.

Not a good place to put your quarterback at all.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Any play that requires you to pump fake from your own end zone is taking too long and risking the possibility of a sack, hold in the end zone or what happened. IMO. I would have rather seen something more like a quick slant or play action pass to Miller until they got some more room.

The Jets safety was a counter from shotgun formation behind a pulling guard. It does take longer than a regular "give" from under center and would not have opened a rush lane like pulling a guard did. Even a quick pass where Ben has the option to throw the ball away was a better option than that play.

Getting too cute and being too cocky beneath your own goalpost isnt a recipe for success.

Who says it requires it? We all know Ben loves to pump fake.

If there's a defensive formation that you want to try to go deep on, that is one of the best you're going to see.

I timed the draw in the Jets game and compared it to a dive we ran out of our end zone earlier in the game. The draw was slightly quicker. It makes sense that the draw would take longer but it didn't.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 01:19 PM
You ever hear of foresight? The understanding what risks are good ones and when to take them comes into play here as well. We've had problems protecting the passer all season. Ben is known to hold the ball too long in an effort to make a play. Knowing this a conservative approach would have been more advisable.

Look at it this way, say Kemo, knowing he's beat drags down Green, but now with Green not pressuring Ben he gets off a good pass and we have a big gainer. But oh no, flag on the field, Kemo got nailed for the hold, safety on the Steelers.

So in other words Ben does his job, alll the receivers do their's, but any one offensive lineman gets beat, you're at a big risk for a safety either through the hold or via a sack or grounding.

So I just can't buy your assessment that Ben bears 60% of the blame, given the fact that the pressure was so immediate and a sack there results in worse disaster than even what we ended up with.

Not a good place to put your quarterback at all.

Again, your plan is to not pass the ball in that situation and run the ball at them, which is what they want you to do and are prepared to face.

I think the risk was fine. Especially considering the reward.

The pressure wasn't that immediate. Again, if Ben doesn't pump, he gets the ball off without a problem. Kemoeatu definitely got killed on that play but it didn't happen right away.

Dino 6 Rings
02-13-2011, 02:02 PM
Dino, a few months back you admonsihed me for my negative attitude, you told me I wasn't the sort of person you'd want to hang with or see a game with. I bristled at what you said at first, but then after giving it some thought, I decided you made some good points, and I should try to look at things with a more positive outlook and stop being so fatalistic. And I think my posts have reflected that attitude change since.

Well now I'm suggesting you take a bit of your own advice. Yeah I know, we lost this one, flip a few plays and a good chance maybe we win? It can be frustrating, no doubt.

But damnit, it's over, we can't change it, placing blame, pointing fingers, it does no good, the result is still the same. So you know what, it's time to get over it. We still had a great season, we still have a great team, and we still got a great future ahead of us.

I told my son when we were down 21-3, "it's a big hole, I don't know if they can climb out of it or not, but I'll bet you anything they wont quit, they'll make a game of it until the end." And they sure did. Imagine being a Bills fan in the 90's, not only did they lose 4 stright Super Bowls, they got absolutley disgraced in the last 3. If this Steelers team lacked character they could have easily quit like so many teams have in the past.

I also pointed out to my son that his Uncle Joe, who's 45 and a huge Eagle fan has never seen his team win a Super Bowl. My son, who will be 15 in May has seen his team win it all twice.

So being mad, or dissapointed isn't something I'm going to waste time with this offseason.


I hope eventually you'll feel the same. :drink:

I go into the off season with the firm belief that we have what it takes to Win the Super Bowl.

I am still disgusted with our peformance last week, knowing, we didn't play our best game, and they did. Had we played our best game, it wouldn't even have been close. -3 in turnovers and we still had a shot. That team should have never beaten us, but we under performed.

So now, in 1 year, I expect to be sitting here having come full circle and being known as Dino 7 Rings. I expect no less than a Super Bowl victory next season.

zulater
02-13-2011, 02:03 PM
Again, your plan is to not pass the ball in that situation and run the ball at them, which is what they want you to do and are prepared to face.

Sometimes winning football is about forcing your will on your opponent. Green Bay didn't stop us on consecutive runs all day. Nothing I saw last Sunday suggests to me that trying to run the ball out from the 7 yard line would have led to catostrophic consequenses. And obviously they weren't playing run only, as they certainly were able to defend our pass.

Regardless, we were only down 7-0 with a ton of football left to be played. Had we advanced the ball 5 or 6 yards and then punted chances are the hole we found ourselves in wouldn't have been dug nearly so deep.

I think the risk was fine. Especially considering the reward.

Considering the consequence of a safety or turnover, I don't think the risk was wise or neccessary at the time.

The pressure wasn't that immediate. Again, if Ben doesn't pump, he gets the ball off without a problem. Kemoeatu definitely got killed on that play but it didn't happen right away.

Now you're the one with a crystal ball. The game's being played at an extrordinary speed, Ben's got the entire field to consider, a myriad of potential possibilies swirling about his brain, and you're throwing him under the bus because he didn't use his 2 second window wisely?

Well try this chidi, after the penalty on Mundy there was an official time out, Arians had a full two minutes to come up with a play that would best put his team in a favorable position. He failed miserably, and there wasn't anyone hitting him in the shoulder two seconds into his thought proccess either.

Dino 6 Rings
02-13-2011, 02:08 PM
Now you're the one with a crystal ball. The game's being played at an extrordinary speed, Ben's got the entire field to consider, a myriad of potential possibilies swirling about his brain, and you're throwing him under the bus because he didn't use his 2 second window wisely?

Well try this chidi, after the penalty on Mundy there was an official time out, Arians had a full two minutes to come up with a play that would best put his team in a favorable position. He failed miserably, and there wasn't anyone hitting him in the shoulder two seconds into his thought proccess either.

if this discussion is for "blame" on the INT that went back for 6, I put that on Ben. As soon as he pump fakes and the safety goes in the direction of Wallace, he is supposed to check down, not throw it up into double coverage, even if his arm isn't hit, its a bad play by him to throw in the direction the safety went. pull it down and run, or check down to the back out of the backfield, you don't throw it up. The arm hit just made it an easy play for the safety, but the ball, should have never been thrown, it wasn't Single Coverage, the safety went that direction on the pump fake, knowing the play pretty much was to take a shot deep to Wallace. I mean, its not that hard to figure out if you're the packer defense, its a clear spot where if its single coverage, we are going to take a shot deep, but it wasn't single coverage, the safety read it and went that way. Check down.

zulater
02-13-2011, 02:10 PM
if this discussion is for "blame" on the INT that went back for 6, I put that on Ben. As soon as he pump fakes and the safety goes in the direction of Wallace, he is supposed to check down, not throw it up into double coverage, even if his arm isn't hit, its a bad play by him to throw in the direction the safety went. pull it down and run, or check down to the back out of the backfield, you don't throw it up. The arm hit just made it an easy play for the safety, but the ball, should have never been thrown, it wasn't Single Coverage, the safety went that direction on the pump fake, knowing the play pretty much was to take a shot deep to Wallace. I mean, its not that hard to figure out if you're the packer defense, its a clear spot where if its single coverage, we are going to take a shot deep, but it wasn't single coverage, the safety read it and went that way. Check down.

Easiar said than done Dino seeing as how Green was on him like white on rice by the time you'd have him checking down.

Dino 6 Rings
02-13-2011, 02:12 PM
Easiar said than done Dino seeing as how Green was on him like white on rice by the time you'd have him checking down.

yeah, I get that, but the safety did go that way, and Ben tried to force it that way. I got the feeling Ben tried to force some things instead of taking what was given by the Packers defense. He may have put too much pressure on himself to have a "great" game this year. Not sure, but still...he shouldn't have thrown that ball, not when the safety went that way. I get the pressure was killer, but that's part of the game, especially our game with our Oline over the last couple years...he's got to check down or just eat it there, he can't just "chuck" it and hope for the best. Not in the Super Bowl.

zulater
02-13-2011, 02:15 PM
yeah, I get that, but the safety did go that way, and Ben tried to force it that way. I got the feeling Ben tried to force some things instead of taking what was given by the Packers defense. He may have put too much pressure on himself to have a "great" game this year. Not sure, but still...he shouldn't have thrown that ball, not when the safety went that way. I get the pressure was killer, but that's part of the game, especially our game with our Oline over the last couple years...he's got to check down or just eat it there, he can't just "chuck" it and hope for the best. Not in the Super Bowl.

If he eats it there dino it's a safety. In all honestly as stupid as it may sound I think we would have been worse off with a safety, because at least with the pick 6 we got the ball right back and were able to establish some offensive momentun on the resulting possession.

Dino 6 Rings
02-13-2011, 02:21 PM
If he eats it there dino it's a safety. In all honestly as stupid as it may sound I think we would have been worse off with a safety, because at least with the pick 6 we got the ball right back and were able to establish some offensive momentun on the resulting possession.

he could step up into the line after the pump fake or better, hit Mendy out of the backfield. Mendy is open, if he brings his eyes down, which he should have once the safety moved, he'd hit mendy easy. Just saying, that int is on Kemo for the missed block for sure, and on Ben.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 02:31 PM
Now you're the one with a crystal ball. The game's being played at an extrordinary speed, Ben's got the entire field to consider, a myriad of potential possibilies swirling about his brain, and you're throwing him under the bus because he didn't use his 2 second window wisely?

Well try this chidi, after the penalty on Mundy there was an official time out, Arians had a full two minutes to come up with a play that would best put his team in a favorable position. He failed miserably, and there wasn't anyone hitting him in the shoulder two seconds into his thought proccess either.

And often times, football is about out gamplanning your opponent. That's how they did it to us. Knew when we were in man coverage, knew how to beat a 2 deep shell. Green Bay didn't try to run the ball to "force their will". They came up with the perfect gameplan to counter us.

On a smaller scale, the perfect blueprint to counter that set is a pass.

Ben only has a few moments to process information? Welcome to playing QB in the NFL. That tends to happen. Ben has made a living off improvised plays where he has to diagnose new information quickly. Receivers run around, Ben has no clue exactly where they're going to go. That's all read and react and when you're out of the pocket with defenders closing in, you don't have much time. I remember the second Browns game where Ben tried to hit El on a slant on what was supposed to be a draw. He saw the safety on a last second blitz and made the decision to throw. Didn't complete the pass but that's a perfect example of digesting information in a very small amount of time.

Is it a difficult thing to do? Heck yes. But if you're going to call Ben an elite QB, proclaim him to be in the level of the Manning's, Brady's, Brees', etc, if the team is going to pay him $100 million, that is something he has to do.

Arians did not fail miserably. He got one-on-one coverage on Wallace. Who doesn't want that?

Not sure how I'm using a crystal ball but whatever.

zulater
02-13-2011, 02:46 PM
And often times, football is about out gamplanning your opponent. That's how they did it to us. Knew when we were in man coverage, knew how to beat a 2 deep shell. Green Bay didn't try to run the ball to "force their will". They came up with the perfect gameplan to counter us.

On a smaller scale, the perfect blueprint to counter that set is a pass.

Ben only has a few moments to process information? Welcome to playing QB in the NFL. That tends to happen. Ben has made a living off improvised plays where he has to diagnose new information quickly. Receivers run around, Ben has no clue exactly where they're going to go. That's all read and react and when you're out of the pocket with defenders closing in, you don't have much time. I remember the second Browns game where Ben tried to hit El on a slant on what was supposed to be a draw. He saw the safety on a last second blitz and made the decision to throw. Didn't complete the pass but that's a perfect example of digesting information in a very small amount of time.

Is it a difficult thing to do? Heck yes. But if you're going to call Ben an elite QB, proclaim him to be in the level of the Manning's, Brady's, Brees', etc, if the team is going to pay him $100 million, that is something he has to do.

Arians did not fail miserably. He got one-on-one coverage on Wallace. Who doesn't want that?

Not sure how I'm using a crystal ball but whatever.

Ben is elite, but when you're standing in the end zone things look different when you know the result of a sack or purposefull incompletion is a safety. I've seen Peyton Manning puke the bit as well in that sort of situation with Joey Porter breathing down his neck in the 05 playoffs. As my signature says, know your limitations, well B.A. should have recognized his, Ben isn't the best ball security guy the league's ever seen, should have saved that pass for 2nd and 6 after Sheed had bought a few extra yards.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-13-2011, 02:54 PM
Who says it requires it? We all know Ben loves to pump fake.

If there's a defensive formation that you want to try to go deep on, that is one of the best you're going to see.

I timed the draw in the Jets game and compared it to a dive we ran out of our end zone earlier in the game. The draw was slightly quicker. It makes sense that the draw would take longer but it didn't.

Now you are just searching for the exceptions that bolster your opinion. Anybody that knows the slightest big about offensive plays, knows that a handoff (dive, give) from under center has much less risk than a draw from shotguy. Its because the ball doesnt get 6 yards deep from the line of scrimmage.

Likewise, you complain about Ben not pump faking in the proper direction, now you seem to be complaining that he didnt need to pump fake at all.

You are being silly and duplicitous in your arguement.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 03:16 PM
Ben is elite, but when you're standing in the end zone things look different when you know the result of a sack or purposefull incompletion is a safety. I've seen Peyton Manning puke the bit as well in that sort of situation with Joey Porter breathing down his neck in the 05 playoffs. As my signature says, know your limitations, well B.A. should have recognized his, Ben isn't the best ball security guy the league's ever seen, should have saved that pass for 2nd and 6 after Sheed had bought a few extra yards.

Again, if you want to be called elite, you're going to be asked to do some difficult things. And what Ben was asked to do honestly wasn't the hardest thing in the world. He only had to mainpulate one player and didn't face a heavy blitz.

If Ben's limitations are not passing the ball from the 10 yard line and in, there are big issues.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 03:20 PM
Now you are just searching for the exceptions that bolster your opinion. Anybody that knows the slightest big about offensive plays, knows that a handoff (dive, give) from under center has much less risk than a draw from shotguy. Its because the ball doesnt get 6 yards deep from the line of scrimmage.

Likewise, you complain about Ben not pump faking in the proper direction, now you seem to be complaining that he didnt need to pump fake at all.

You are being silly and duplicitous in your arguement.

I'm not searching for anything. You brought it up. I merely commented on it.

We can debate the risk of it, but that wasn't what you said. You said the draw was "slow developing" and that it took too long. I was disproving that point.

I said that I would have rather had Ben pump away from Wallace or not pump at all. He chose option C. That's what I didn't like.

zulater
02-13-2011, 04:58 PM
Again, if you want to be called elite, you're going to be asked to do some difficult things. And what Ben was asked to do honestly wasn't the hardest thing in the world. He only had to mainpulate one player and didn't face a heavy blitz.

If Ben's limitations are not passing the ball from the 10 yard line and in, there are big issues.


chidi, your opinion isn't the only one that has any value. I understand your point of view perfectly, I just disagree with it. I'm not alone in the opinion that dropping your qb into the end zone in that situation was a questionable risk.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 05:07 PM
chidi, your opinion isn't the only one that has any value. I understand your point of view perfectly, I just disagree with it. I'm not alone in the opinion that dropping your qb into the end zone in that situation was a questionable risk.

Likewise. I know what you're saying and I disagree with it too.

I'm not the only one with my opinion either.

The WH
02-13-2011, 05:08 PM
Ben's arm getting hit is the sole reason for that interception. His arm doesn't get hit he puts it right on Wallace for a big gain. It had nothing to do with that safety going Wallaces way.

Texasteel
02-13-2011, 05:23 PM
chidi, your opinion isn't the only one that has any value. I understand your point of view perfectly, I just disagree with it. I'm not alone in the opinion that dropping your qb into the end zone in that situation was a questionable risk.

I for one understand your concerns about the play as well, but chidi is not alone in his opinion that although it was a calculated risk, it was a good call. Hopefully we can disagree about one of our plays in next years SB as well.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-13-2011, 05:35 PM
I'm not searching for anything. You brought it up. I merely commented on it.

We can debate the risk of it, but that wasn't what you said. You said the draw was "slow developing" and that it took too long. I was disproving that point.

I said that I would have rather had Ben pump away from Wallace or not pump at all. He chose option C. That's what I didn't like.

My whole point is that coaches dont play, their job is to put their players in the best situation to succeed. Both the shotgun handoff from the end zone vs the Jets and the play in question that ended up as a pick 6 in the Super Bowl were situations of higher risk than were IMO, necessary. Same with the long FG miss that gave up a short field and another TD.

Arians isnt to blame, but he didnt establish any continuity of offense and I think outthought himself in the play calling. Some will point to execution, but I especially wonder why it seemed that Hines Ward wasnt given the chance to execute in the 2nd half like he could have.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-13-2011, 05:38 PM
I for one understand your concerns about the play as well, but chidi is not alone in his opinion that although it was a calculated risk, it was a good call. Hopefully we can disagree about one of our plays in next years SB as well.

You say calculated risk. I think it was panic and trying to get that TD back all at once.

Got greedy with the call and got burned. Being down 7-0 wasnt the time to take a risk in the shadow of your own goalpost and make it 14-0

zulater
02-13-2011, 05:44 PM
I for one understand your concerns about the play as well, but chidi is not alone in his opinion that although it was a calculated risk, it was a good call. Hopefully we can disagree about one of our plays in next years SB as well.

The thing is overall I thought Arians did a good job with his play calling and game plan. We moved the ball effectively more possessions than not, were it not for a Mendy fumble, and a Roethlisberger overthrow/ miscommunication with Wallace we would have easily surpassed 30 offensive points.

That's why I thought we needed to show patience with that early possession, because I think our offense had enough answers all along. It was just a matter of letting the game come to us rather than try to force the issue.

Saying you disagree with one or two play calls in a game with 60 some offensive plays isn't tantamount to calling Bruce an idiot or demanding his head on a platter. I hope people will understand that.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 05:49 PM
My whole point is that coaches dont play, their job is to put their players in the best situation to succeed. Both the shotgun handoff from the end zone vs the Jets and the play in question that ended up as a pick 6 in the Super Bowl were situations of higher risk than were IMO, necessary. Same with the long FG miss that gave up a short field and another TD.

Arians isnt to blame, but he didnt establish any continuity of offense and I think outthought himself in the play calling. Some will point to execution, but I especially wonder why it seemed that Hines Ward wasnt given the chance to execute in the 2nd half like he could have.

And throwing on 3rd and 6 against the Jets was a higher risk play. Would have been much safer to run it.

You take the good. You take the bad. Facts of life my friend.

zulater
02-13-2011, 05:51 PM
And throwing on 3rd and 6 against the Jets was a higher risk play. Would have been much safer to run it.

You take the good. You take the bad. Facts of life my friend.

No there's a big difference in field position. Ben didn't risk taking a safety if he was sacked or threw the ball away on those plays against the Jets.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 05:51 PM
Arians isnt to blame, but he didnt establish any continuity of offense and I think outthought himself in the play calling. Some will point to execution, but I especially wonder why it seemed that Hines Ward wasnt given the chance to execute in the 2nd half like he could have.

And if the play we've been talking about is any indication, Ward had a lot of trouble getting separation.

That's not just on Arians, too. For all we know, the plays were designed for Ward and he just wasn't open. Like the 3rd and 6 completion to Brown against the Jets. The first read on the play was Ward.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 05:53 PM
No there's a big difference in field position. Ben didn't risk taking a safety if he was sacked or threw the ball away on those plays against the Jets.

You're right.

We only risked having the pass fall incomplete and giving the Jets an extra 40 seconds to come back and win the game.

zulater
02-13-2011, 05:56 PM
You're right.

We only risked having the pass fall incomplete and giving the Jets an extra 40 seconds to come back and win the game.

Yeah I understand that, and was fine with the risk that was taken on that play.

But it's really not apples to apples as you want to claim, the game situation was totally different, and the risk wasn't nearly as great.

Texasteel
02-13-2011, 06:01 PM
You say calculated risk. I think it was panic and trying to get that TD back all at once.

Got greedy with the call and got burned. Being down 7-0 wasnt the time to take a risk in the shadow of your own goalpost and make it 14-0

Can't agree with you at all on this one. GB was tight to the line playing the run, and BA attempted to cross them up. In fact I think he did. Mendy was open coming out of the back field and Wallace was open by 2 steps. If the our best guard could have held his block for 4 seconds I believe it would have been a completion for a long gain. I don't think panic or greed played a part in it at all. We'll just have to disagree bud.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 06:14 PM
Yeah I understand that, and was fine with the risk that was taken on that play.

But it's really not apples to apples as you want to claim, the game situation was totally different, and the risk wasn't nearly as great.

The point is that sometimes you roll the dice. It's not always going to pay off, but when it does, you get to play in games like the Super Bowl.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-13-2011, 09:35 PM
Can't agree with you at all on this one. GB was tight to the line playing the run, and BA attempted to cross them up. In fact I think he did. Mendy was open coming out of the back field and Wallace was open by 2 steps. If the our best guard could have held his block for 4 seconds I believe it would have been a completion for a long gain. I don't think panic or greed played a part in it at all. We'll just have to disagree bud.

Can we agree that Wallace was the primary on that play?? He sure looked like it.

Coming out of the TV timeout, I cant help but think they said....lets take a shot deep and worst case scenario we make them respect the deep threat. But I cant help but think the prudent play being only down 7 points would be ...lets get a first down and some breathing room, then put together a nice 7-10 play scoring drive.

We've heard in the past this year that maybe the offense looked to get greedy and get big chunks instead of being patient and I think that pick-6 play was the same old mistake.

zulater
02-13-2011, 09:46 PM
The point is that sometimes you roll the dice. It's not always going to pay off, but when it does, you get to play in games like the Super Bowl.

And when it backfires, you lose games like the Super Bowl. No team that's ever thrown a pick 6 in Super bowl history has gone on to win the game.

Chidi29
02-13-2011, 09:52 PM
And when it backfires, you lose games like the Super Bowl. No team that's ever thrown a pick 6 in Super bowl history has gone on to win the game.

And when you play scared, you lose.

Again, you're using hindsight. No one knew it would be a pick six.

Craic
02-13-2011, 10:18 PM
60% Ben
15% Kemoeatu
15% Mundy
5% Ward
5% Arians

Why? There is only 1 player that actually failed his assignment on that play, and that is Kemo. He is the one that failed to block, which then interfered with Ben throwing the pass. Ben pumped to that side for a reason that we simply do not see on film. I tried to give one possibility, you give another one. Regardless, the pump fake is NOT the reason the play failed.

Mundy's mistake is also not the reason the play failed. Ward not getting uncovered means nothing, because Mendy was open on a curl, so Ben had a second option to throw to.

So to place actual blame, its simple.

100% Kemo. He makes that block, and its a 14 point swing from the actual outcome-and Mundy's mistake is eliminated.

Everything else is hindsight.

Craic
02-13-2011, 10:20 PM
Hey Everyone-----

Thanks,

It sure is nice having a bunch of people talk football again, instead of simply flaming coaches. This is really starting to feel like SF in 06.

Craic
02-13-2011, 10:28 PM
Can we agree that Wallace was the primary on that play?? He sure looked like it.

Coming out of the TV timeout, I cant help but think they said....lets take a shot deep and worst case scenario we make them respect the deep threat. But I cant help but think the prudent play being only down 7 points would be ...lets get a first down and some breathing room, then put together a nice 7-10 play scoring drive.

We've heard in the past this year that maybe the offense looked to get greedy and get big chunks instead of being patient and I think that pick-6 play was the same old mistake.
I understand what you're saying El G.

But if you look at the tendencies of this offense, I think that play is exactly called for.

Tendency 1. When trapped deep in the zone, unless you are within the last couple minutes of the game, this team runs. The 9 men in the box confirms that GB saw this exact same tendency.

Tendency 2. On first down, this team opts to run the ball, or once in a while, throw some kind of a screen pass. Again, 9 men in the box-they were feeling comfortable with either or both of these tendencies happening again.

Tendency 3. When Ward goes in motion to the line, then backs out a yard or two, it usually designates a run play. I have often wondered if teams were keying on some signal, I think that's the signal. I also think Arians
caught on as well, and used it against Green bay.

So, with 3 tendencies all telling Green Bay that that we were going to run the ball there, the "predictable" thing, (which Arians is ragged on for doing), is to run the ball. Instead, he sends in a go route, and it is a TD-except that Kemo fails to make his block.

zulater
02-14-2011, 05:44 AM
And when you play scared, you lose.

Again, you're using hindsight. No one knew it would be a pick six.

No, again I was wishing more patience and foresight was shown. On average in an NFL game you get 10-12 offensive possesions. ( in the SB we had 12) That was our 3rd, there was no urgency to score with that possession. Sure it would have been nice, and I'm not saying you simply line up 3 times and get ready to punt. I'm saying don't play stupid there. Situational football 101. Just as there's a right time to attempt a 50+ yard fg with a marginal kicker, there's also a right and wrong time to have your qb's drop take him into the end zone.

One last thing, of course no one knew it would be a pick 6, that was never my contention. What was easily anticipated was the associated risk of thowing from your end zone of a safety! We've been known to give up a few of those from time to time, including in Super Bowl play. Speaking of which there's a perfect example for you, Ben did his job perfectly throwing from the end zone in SB XLIII. So did Santonio Holmes. But guess what, one offensive lineman didn't, Hartwig held, play negated, 2 points Cardinals. ( btw different game situation, I never had a problem with that play call then or now) Anyway, you know our OL, you know our qb, how the hell can you not anticipate that the chance that that play would turn disasterous wasn't highly likely? Throwing deep with your qb in the endzone relative to where the game was at the time was a poor idea, period. That's the last I've got to say about it, disagree if you like.

zulater
02-14-2011, 06:22 AM
Why? There is only 1 player that actually failed his assignment on that play, and that is Kemo. He is the one that failed to block, which then interfered with Ben throwing the pass. Ben pumped to that side for a reason that we simply do not see on film. I tried to give one possibility, you give another one. Regardless, the pump fake is NOT the reason the play failed.

Mundy's mistake is also not the reason the play failed. Ward not getting uncovered means nothing, because Mendy was open on a curl, so Ben had a second option to throw to.

So to place actual blame, its simple.

100% Kemo. He makes that block, and its a 14 point swing from the actual outcome-and Mundy's mistake is eliminated.

Everything else is hindsight.

Mundy deserves some blame because starting field position meant everything there. Put it this way, if we start our possession at the 43, like we should have, and that interception goes down the very same way then I put the blame 75% on Ben and 25% on Kemo. Because like it or not there's two teams out there, and sometimes the other guy is just going to beat your guy on a particuliar play. It could have been Flozell, it could have been Legurskey, etc... but of course in this case it was Kemo who got beat. It happens. But here's my point, if the line of scrimmage is the 43 and that play happens, it's real simple Ben just eats the ball, takes the sack, or perhaps he does one of his magic acts and somehow avoids it? But regardless if he chooses to throw then that's just terrible decision making on his part. But with the line of scrimmage being the 7, and using such a deep drop your quarterback isn't in a position to take a sack, as a sack is a safety.

Speaking of the deep drop, this is why I'm certain that the play was always intended for Wallace. If the design of the play was to get the ball to Ward, Miller, Moore etc... there was no reason to take such a deep drop. So I'm ok throwing on first down from our own 7, but I'm not ok that the play was designed to go deep. Because deep routes take longer, and require the qb to take a deeper drop. The more I think about it the more I believe that the play call was 50% of the problem if not more.

Chidi29
02-14-2011, 03:16 PM
Why? There is only 1 player that actually failed his assignment on that play, and that is Kemo. He is the one that failed to block, which then interfered with Ben throwing the pass. Ben pumped to that side for a reason that we simply do not see on film. I tried to give one possibility, you give another one. Regardless, the pump fake is NOT the reason the play failed.

Mundy's mistake is also not the reason the play failed. Ward not getting uncovered means nothing, because Mendy was open on a curl, so Ben had a second option to throw to.

So to place actual blame, its simple.

100% Kemo. He makes that block, and its a 14 point swing from the actual outcome-and Mundy's mistake is eliminated.

Everything else is hindsight.

I still see no benefit in the pump fake to the playside from Ben. If he doesn't pump and throws earlier, Green doesn't collapse the pocket in time.

Ben might not have had a reason to pump. Again, we all know he pump fakes as much as anyone in the game. He'll pump fake multiple times in a dropback. Honestly, I think he pumps as much as he does because he is indecisive. Isn't sure what to do; he's changing his mind mid-throw. And with his large hands, he can get away with pump faking and the ball not slipping out.

And no, that's not me using hindsight. That's foresight all the way. The longer you hang in the pocket, the more likely you wil get sacked or it will break down. Pump faking forces you to hold onto the ball longer. You have single coverage on Wallace. Just let it fly.

For a guy who is supposed to make his name on getting separation, Ward sure didn't there. Spaeth got better separation. It's not a huge thing, but it would have been nice for Ben to have another option at WR. And getting separation from Woodson and going over the middle has a better chance of drawing the safety.

I put the same amount of blame on Ward as I did Arians. And I'm defending Arians pretty adamently here...

Chidi29
02-14-2011, 03:21 PM
No, again I was wishing more patience and foresight was shown. On average in an NFL game you get 10-12 offensive possesions. ( in the SB we had 12) That was our 3rd, there was no urgency to score with that possession. Sure it would have been nice, and I'm not saying you simply line up 3 times and get ready to punt. I'm saying don't play stupid there. Situational football 101. Just as there's a right time to attempt a 50+ yard fg with a marginal kicker, there's also a right and wrong time to have your qb's drop take him into the end zone.

One last thing, of course no one knew it would be a pick 6, that was never my contention. What was easily anticipated was the associated risk of thowing from your end zone of a safety! We've been known to give up a few of those from time to time, including in Super Bowl play. Speaking of which there's a perfect example for you, Ben did his job perfectly throwing from the end zone in SB XLIII. So did Santonio Holmes. But guess what, one offensive lineman didn't, Hartwig held, play negated, 2 points Cardinals. ( btw different game situation, I never had a problem with that play call then or now) Anyway, you know our OL, you know our qb, how the hell can you not anticipate that the chance that that play would turn disasterous wasn't highly likely? Throwing deep with your qb in the endzone relative to where the game was at the time was a poor idea, period. That's the last I've got to say about it, disagree if you like.

If you have the right look, we shouldn't sit there and say "Let's not run the play. It's too soon." Because who knows when you're going to get that look there. Complete that pass and you're in great field position, perhaps even putting seven on the board, and bringing momentum your way.

I don't look at the other, in my mind, minor influences. If you see a play that will work well against their set, you use it. That's the job of an OC. Not ram his head against a wall just because he doesn't want to roll the dice (even though we got here by rolling the dice). And to get called "too predictable".

Because you're in your own end zone, Ben should have had that internal clock speed up. Get the look you want, which is there pre-snap, and got the ball out of your hand. Ben had plenty of time to reach the end of his drop and make his read before Kemoeatu got bullrushed. If he doesn't pump, the ball comes out clean and Collins doesn't stand a chance to get over there. Probably not even to make the tackle should Wallace catch the ball and break free from Williams.

There was little to no chance of a holding call resulting in a safety. The only way that happens is if that occurs in the end zone. We were at the seven.

zulater
02-14-2011, 07:53 PM
A couple things chidi, Ben most certainly was standing in the end zone when he delivered that pass, if there was a hold on that play it was going to be a safety.

Also being a good coach is about knowing your players tendencies and shortcomings. You've labeled Ben as the main culprit on the pick 6. As a result of that pump fake you claim he held the ball too long. To quote Herm Edwards, "HELLO!" That's Ben, where the hell have you and Arians been the last 5 years if you didn't know it was in Ben's DNA to hold the ball too long? All the more reason that having him take a drop into the end zone to pass the ball on first and 10 from your 7 yard line down only 7-0 with 3 and 1/2 quarters of football left made little sense.

Sorta like leaving your nice but spooky pit bull with your 4 year old nephew with a biting habit alone together, if something bad happens, don't claim it wasn't your fault afterwards.

Chidi29
02-14-2011, 08:40 PM
A couple things chidi, Ben most certainly was standing in the end zone when he delivered that pass, if there was a hold on that play it was going to be a safety.

Also being a good coach is about knowing your players tendencies and shortcomings. You've labeled Ben as the main culprit on the pick 6. As a result of that pump fake you claim he held the ball too long. To quote Herm Edwards, "HELLO!" That's Ben, where the hell have you and Arians been the last 5 years if you didn't know it was in Ben's DNA to hold the ball too long? All the more reason that having him take a drop into the end zone to pass the ball on first and 10 from your 7 yard line down only 7-0 with 3 and 1/2 quarters of football left made little sense.

Sorta like leaving your nice but spooky pit bull with your 4 year old nephew with a biting habit alone together, if something bad happens, don't claim it wasn't your fault afterwards.

By my understanding of the rules, it would only be a safety if the lineman committed the infraction in the end zone. Maybe I'm wrong on that or just missing your point.

As I've said all along, and I feel like a broken record saying it, if you think you're so limited by your QB that you refuse to throw out of your end zone even in one of the most favorable matchups you're going to get with your burner of a WR, you can not call that QB elite. Or even good.

zulater
02-14-2011, 08:53 PM
By my understanding of the rules, it would only be a safety if the lineman committed the infraction in the end zone. Maybe I'm wrong on that or just missing your point.

As I've said all along, and I feel like a broken record saying it, if you think you're so limited by your QB that you refuse to throw out of your end zone even in one of the most favorable matchups you're going to get with your burner of a WR, you can not call that QB elite. Or even good.

You're wrong on that, it's where the qb is standing when he makes his throw, if Ben's lead foot was out of the endzone it's half the distance, but he wasn't, both feet were firmly planted in the end zone when he let loose of the ball.

And recognizing your quarterbacks weaknesses or bad tendencies doesn't exclude him from being elite. Some qb's don't roll to their left well, some are poorer when they move right. Donavan McNabb never was at his best in the 2 minute offense, Brady and Manning fold if you get a good middle rush on them, Ken Stabler didn't throw the best deep ball, neither did Len Dawson. I could go on, but the point is, Ben does hold the ball too long at times, so the chances of him getting sacked for a safety on any play that has him dropping into the end zone is very real.