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View Full Version : Ann Killion should be fired!



zulater
01-29-2011, 06:16 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ann_killion/01/28/ben.roethlisberger/index.html

Sorry, this bitch crossed the line, this is nothing but a hack piece, a presumption of guilt that should get this hack fired.

I've cancelled my subscription to SI over this. I hope some of you will as well.

zulater
01-29-2011, 06:18 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/why-big-ben-really-deserved-the-suspension

I sent Killion a link to this story, along with a few other choice things.

When the Georgia police released the details of the notes it took during its investigation of Roethlisberger, the media cherry-picked and repeated the alleged "eyewitness" accounts as though they were as unimpeachable as a video replay.

According to the "witnesses," Roethlisberger's bodyguards dragged the accuser to the bathroom, blocked the entrance into the bathroom and Roethlisberger approached the accuser with his penis exposed.

Once these accounts were introduced as "evidence" into the court of public opinion, broadcasters and pundits had all the ammo they needed to convict Ben as "disgusting" and call for Goodell to take swift and hard action.

It was completely irresponsible. Statements made by drunken sorority girls are not facts. Statements made by sober sorority girls about an evening spent bar-hopping and drinking are not facts.

Late last week I received an e-mail from a former sorority president and current advisor to a sorority. She warned me that the media were being foolish for believing the allegations of drunken 20-somethings. She explained what she'd witnessed firsthand as a student and what she now deals with as an advisor.

Some young women use alcohol as an excuse to be sexually aggressive at fraternity houses and nightclubs and then quickly concoct a story of sexual assault when confronted by their disapproving peers. Most of these allegations never make it to police headquarters. The allegations are too sketchy and the accuser's immediate jury of peers reject them.

"I don't believe a bunch of hammered sorority girls in this situation," the former sorority president wrote. "I've seen too much bad behavior amongst them. It's all about having fun and then making sure you're not held accountable and your reputation is still good."
CONTACT JASON WHITLOCK If you have a question or comment for Jason, submit it below and he may just respond.
Subject:

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Big Ben's accuser was allegedly wearing a name tag that read DTF -- "down to f---." She engaged in a lewd and highly flirtatious conversation with Roethlisberger.

It's 2010 not 1910. Women vote, drive cars and knock boots at their own discretion. The popular R&B singer Usher makes songs targeted at women. His 2008 smash hit "Love in this Club" was most popular with women. Getting busy in the bathroom or getting a special "bottle service" at a VIP table are nowhere near as rare as joining the "mile high club."

If you read the police accounts, the accuser's sorority sisters drove this case. If Ben's bodyguards dragged the accuser to the bathroom, you could make the argument that her sorority sisters dragged her to the police.

Her initial story to the police was weak at best and made absolutely no sense at worst.

The case was so flimsy that Big Ben was never even arrested. Once she sobered up, the accuser didn't even cooperate with the police.

Let me repeat: PacBen is a freaking idiot who deserved to be suspended. Off the field, he thinks with the wrong head. In pursuit of a wham-bam, he's twice -- that we know of -- placed himself in a vulnerable position.

But the ugly truth is Ben isn't all that different from a lot of guys and girls who use alcohol as their aphrodisiac of choice. Any woman who has belonged to a prominent sorority has heard the lecture about safety rules to follow when entering a male fraternity house for a mixer/party.

"Don't drink the punch. It might be laced with a roofie."

"Don't go anywhere in the house alone."

The rules are reminders that no matter how nice the guy might sound there's a damn good chance he's looking for one-night-stand sex or trying to set up a train. Some of the women are looking for the exact same thing.

So why did Ben deserve suspension?

As Terry Bradshaw eloquently and appropriately explained, Ben doesn't know who he is and what position he holds. He's a millionaire franchise quarterback, an ambassador for the Steelers and the city of Pittsburgh.


He's not Usher, a rock-star sex symbol. NFL players, particularly high-profile quarterbacks, don't get to make "love in this club." That kind of behavior is way too high risk for someone under Ben's spotlight.

oneforthetoe
01-29-2011, 06:21 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/why-big-ben-really-deserved-the-suspension

I sent Killion a link to this story, along with a few other choice things.

I sent her an email earlier as well reminding her of that little yet mostly ignored concept of "innocent until proven" guilty.

Fat chance it does any good.

HometownGal
01-29-2011, 06:39 PM
Personally, I think she/he/it is a shim or a drag queen.

What a vile bitch dragging this saga up all over again the week before the Super Bowl. :upyours: If you will notice, the words "accused" are used and having worked in law for 2-1/2 decades, "accused" does not constitute guilt. I sent "it" an email, as well, and the contents aren't very nice. :mad2:

tube517
01-29-2011, 06:40 PM
Who in the blue hell is Ann Killion?

Shawn
01-29-2011, 06:53 PM
I e-mailed her and told her I canceled my SI subscription. I never had one in the first place, but it can't hurt. I also reminded her that our legal system says you are innocent until proven guilty, and asked her where was her article slamming Mark Sanchez?

HometownGal
01-29-2011, 06:55 PM
and asked her where was her article slamming Mark Sanchez?

Agreed and also - where was her article on Favre?

Akagi
01-29-2011, 06:57 PM
The story is an opinion piece, and as such is simply there. But I think she should tell ALL such stories, including this one about the Packers... from http://jezebel.com,

"Back in the summer, police were called to a resort in Wisconsin Dells (http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=852325) that housed several Green Bay Packers (http://jezebel.com/tag/greenbaypackers/) players in response to two women who accused the men of holding them down while multiple players sexually assaulted them. When the women changed their story, linebackers Brad Jones (http://jezebel.com/tag/bradjones/) and Clay Matthews (http://jezebel.com/tag/claymatthews/), guard Josh Sitton (http://jezebel.com/tag/joshsitton/), safety Khalil Jones (http://jezebel.com/tag/khaliljones/), fullback Korey Hall (http://jezebel.com/tag/koreyhall/) and backup quarterback Matt Flynn (http://jezebel.com/tag/mattflynn/) were cleared of charges. A seventh player, Brandon Underwood (http://www.sbnation.com/2010/6/6/1647160/packers-brandon-underwood), is currently under investigation. Football fans rejoiced at the news that, once again, those bitches were lying about rape and their football gods could go on playing America's game sans distraction. Because ladies lie about stuff like this all the time, right?"

siss
01-29-2011, 07:01 PM
I sent her a love letter to. She won't like me after what I called her.

zulater
01-29-2011, 07:11 PM
I'd expect that sort of article from a blog. Bleacher Report, Deadspin, something like that fine. I practically wouldn't have taken notice of it. But what galls me, is that if the Steelers do in fact win the Super Bowl next week guess what SI is going to be doing? If you guessed trying to sell subscriptions to Steelers' fans you'd have guessed right. You know the package, the glossy book, the offical football with logo, and a years worth of the magazine all for one tidy sum!

Well don't be a chump and buy it! Somewhere an editor appoved that attack piece, it doesn't just fall on Killion! Or it shouldn't!

steeldawg
01-29-2011, 07:26 PM
Any word on the status of his civil case?

zulater
01-29-2011, 07:28 PM
Any word on the status of his civil case?

They're still trying to figure out where to try it last I heard.

Count Steeler
01-29-2011, 07:29 PM
And while no charges were filed in either case, a look at the Milledgeville police report, physical evidence and an investigative story by Sports Illustrated leaves no doubt that something awfully repellent happened that night in Georgia.

Excuse my ignorance, I'm up here in Canada, but did your court systems get taken over by the investigative story department of SI?

Sure glad you still have to be tried by a jury of your peers, not by journalistic incompetents.

Shame on you Ann.

steeldawg
01-29-2011, 07:39 PM
Excuse my ignorance, I'm up here in Canada, but did your court systems get taken over by the investigative story department of SI?

Sure glad you still have to be tried by a jury of your peers, not by journalistic incompetents.

Shame on you Ann.

LOL ya the evidence they collected was so overwhelming that the DA decided not to prosecute.

smokin3000gt
01-29-2011, 07:53 PM
What a scag. The only thing "disgusting" is her man head. Someone should club it next time it pokes around the corner.

I sent her something to read. A polite punch in the face I like to call it..

smokin3000gt
01-29-2011, 07:55 PM
I also accused her of molesting me at the last bar we were at and that I couldn't wait to tell the real media how she is as guilty as Ben is.

BPS3akaWirels3
01-29-2011, 08:08 PM
Told her I canceled my order also...

steelreserve
01-29-2011, 08:18 PM
I don't have to be beaming with pride about the guy's off-the-field reputation in order to want the team to do well. What a douchenozzle.

I mean, there's an appropriate time and place to drag this kind of shit up from the toilet bowl again ... and this ain't it.

SMR
01-29-2011, 08:43 PM
Hey Ann,

:deadhorse:

Stay classy you "journalist"!

GBMelBlount
01-29-2011, 08:46 PM
I mean, there's an appropriate time and place to drag this kind of shit up from the toilet bowl again ... and this ain't it.

Agreed.

As Zu mentioned, this hit piece (purposely timed right before the Superbowl) IS endorsed by SI. Someone had to approve this, opinion piece or not.

They may see it as provocative....I see it as pure tabloid trash.

Completely disgusted.

oneforthetoe
01-29-2011, 08:55 PM
Agreed.

As Zu mentioned, this hit piece (purposely timed right before the Superbowl) IS endorsed by SI. Someone had to approve this, opinion piece or not.

They may see it as provocative....I see it as pure tabloid trash.

Completely disgusted.

Yes they clearly do. I read this article yesterday, but it was not on the big slide show picture on the front page. Now, after SI figured it would bring them hits, it is suddenly a front page story.

Oh, and Ann molested me as a child as well. My proof is I said so.

Merchant
01-29-2011, 09:21 PM
wowww.... what a filthy piece of trash. this is the definition of a Hater. the guy's done nothing but walk a straight line, win games, make it to the super bowl, and this girl is just trying to re-tarnish his image. That's okay though.. Once Ben holds up that Lombardi it'll shut everyone up.

siss
01-29-2011, 09:24 PM
wowww.... what a filthy piece of trash. this is the definition of a Hater. the guy's done nothing but walk a straight line, win games, make it to the super bowl, and this girl is just trying to re-tarnish his image. That's okay though.. Once Ben holds up that Lombardi it'll shut everyone up.

Aben...

Dino 6 Rings
01-29-2011, 09:45 PM
its Super Bowl week, get used to hearing all about his off the field issues...for the next 7 days folks.

the way he is going to rebound...is lifting Trophy #7 then declaring his love for his fiance.

NCSteeler
01-29-2011, 11:52 PM
She's a hack and SI is stooping pretty low on this piece. I expect that it didn't make the print edition, the online world has really lowered the bar on what a good story is.

BTW, I sort of agree, playing well doesn't prove your a better person. Nor does good behavior for 11 months, only after years will we know if Ben has improved his life and really become a better person.

Aussie_steeler
01-30-2011, 12:20 AM
I'm guessing none of our questions to her will be posted for comment.

Such a shame.

BTW - check out some of her tweets regarding Ben and Aaron Rodgers.

http://twitter.com/annkillion

NCSteeler
01-30-2011, 12:50 AM
She a West coaster and considers Rodgers her home boy, she has obvious left coast bias and a serious FEM complex(just check her columns) Anyhow here's an example of how this story should have been written.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/columnists/starkey/s_719992.html


Ben Roethlisberger has behaved in a socially acceptable manner for almost 10 months, near as anyone can tell.

Why that would merit praise, let alone glowing testaments, is beyond me.



Read more: Starkey: Big Ben a changed man? Who knows? - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/columnists/starkey/s_719992.html#ixzz1CUzhPOmV

steelersfan425
01-30-2011, 01:45 AM
IM SO FUCKING SICK OF PEOPLE LIKE HER SHES JUST TRYING TO GET ATTENTION BY BRINGING UP OLD NEWS

steelerrob
01-30-2011, 02:31 AM
My mail to this skank -

Dear Ann,

Re. your recent scathing article on Ben Roethlisberger of the Steelers - gutter journalism at its worst. This is a man who has not been charged with any crime. You and whoever sanctioned this piece of trash article should be ashamed of yourselves. Subscription cancelled.

Up yours

Rob

steelreserve
01-30-2011, 05:01 AM
Exactly RT @hbryant42: How can Greene get popped by Farrior grill-to-grill and have that NOT be a penalty?

did anyone notice this gem down toward the bottom? Here she is bitching for a helmet-to-helmet penalty on a linebacker tackling a running back. It's been pretty well explained that there is no helmet-to-helmet penalty when you're tackling a running back, because tackling the ballcarrier is completely different from hitting a receiver in the air.

I mean, seriously. I was willing to give this chick the benefit of the doubt about being slanted, but PLEASE, at least know the rules. Especially if you're going to call someone out as "dirty." And especially a guy like Farrior, who as far as I know hasn't made a dirty play in his whole career.

This woman probably hangs around bars in Boston trying to drag Tom Brady into a bathroom to get him in a compromising situation, but then it winds up that he "can't perform," so she goes and gets Matt Cassel instead, and then they go at it for 4 hours but nobody cares.

Galax Steeler
01-30-2011, 07:15 AM
What a way to try and get a story she is a douche bag.

HometownGal
01-30-2011, 07:51 AM
Media day is fast approaching. Anyone want to take the over/under on how many times Ben is going to be questioned about Milledgeville? :mad:

BigNastyDefense
01-30-2011, 08:38 AM
Media day is fast approaching. Anyone want to take the over/under on how many times Ben is going to be questioned about Milledgeville? :mad:

I think when media day gets here and Ben steps up to the podium, the first thing out of his mouth should be that he is only going to answer questions that are related to football. And the first time a reporter asks about Milledgeville or the pending court case in Nevada, Ben should step down from the podium, fines be damned.

Count Steeler
01-30-2011, 08:51 AM
Ben should respond with something like. "I am happy you asked that question. I have been expecting that this issue would arise in this setting. Once again I will state that my personal life was not being lived up to the standard that is expected of all NFL football players. I have taken steps to bring my personal life back to the standard that my parents raised me with and to the standards expected of me by the Steelers organization. I would just like to take this opportunity to thank all those who stood by me and are continuing to stand by me. Next question please."

memphissteelergirl
01-30-2011, 08:58 AM
Hack pieces like this is the very reason I stopped reading SI years ago. :mad:

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-30-2011, 12:04 PM
Honestly, sounds like a lot of you are somewhat thin skinned.

Back in 2000 when Ray Lewis was in the SB one year after his incident...reporters brought up the situation and Billick, Lewis and especially Shannon Sharpe were really pushing back with the same tone that most on this board seem to be.

Its an opinion piece and I could see the issue if this was just an isolated incident, but Ben has a history of getting himself in bad situations and because of that, he will have to deal with this. Its her opinion and it appeals to the female sports fans out there that are not Pittsburgh Steeler fans, so that is probably why its written. Lets not try and stoop to the level of being whiny fans.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-30-2011, 12:08 PM
Ben should respond with something like. "I am happy you asked that question. I have been expecting that this issue would arise in this setting. Once again I will state that my personal life was not being lived up to the standard that is expected of all NFL football players. I have taken steps to bring my personal life back to the standard that my parents raised me with and to the standards expected of me by the Steelers organization. I would just like to take this opportunity to thank all those who stood by me and are continuing to stand by me. Next question please."

Exactly, and I think that has been his tone for most of this.

Ben knows he has made some mistakes and put himself in bad situations, but I think this last one was the one that finally made him realize that he wasnt being responsible.

siss
01-30-2011, 01:09 PM
Media day is fast approaching. Anyone want to take the over/under on how many times Ben is going to be questioned about Milledgeville? :mad:
I've got the over!

zulater
01-30-2011, 01:10 PM
Honestly, sounds like a lot of you are somewhat thin skinned.

Back in 2000 when Ray Lewis was in the SB one year after his incident...reporters brought up the situation and Billick, Lewis and especially Shannon Sharpe were really pushing back with the same tone that most on this board seem to be.

Its an opinion piece and I could see the issue if this was just an isolated incident, but Ben has a history of getting himself in bad situations and because of that, he will have to deal with this. Its her opinion and it appeals to the female sports fans out there that are not Pittsburgh Steeler fans, so that is probably why its written. Lets not try and stoop to the level of being whiny fans.

She expressed her opinion, and now we're expressing ours.

Mtn.Steel
01-30-2011, 01:14 PM
She will NOT enjoy my email to her.

tube517
01-30-2011, 03:25 PM
Honestly, sounds like a lot of you are somewhat thin skinned.

Back in 2000 when Ray Lewis was in the SB one year after his incident...reporters brought up the situation and Billick, Lewis and especially Shannon Sharpe were really pushing back with the same tone that most on this board seem to be.

Its an opinion piece and I could see the issue if this was just an isolated incident, but Ben has a history of getting himself in bad situations and because of that, he will have to deal with this. Its her opinion and it appeals to the female sports fans out there that are not Pittsburgh Steeler fans, so that is probably why its written. Lets not try and stoop to the level of being whiny fans.

That's all well and fine but she put her email out there so that's her problem not mine. :heh:

st33lersguy
01-30-2011, 03:26 PM
Innocent until proven guilty. Unless you are a useless hag who calls "herself" a journalist and doesn't like someone I guess

Iron Steeler
01-30-2011, 04:10 PM
Who in the blue hell is Ann Killion?

I have no respect for people like this... to kick someone when there down, and they are trying to get better? Whats wrong with you?

I take this personal because my younger brother WAS a drug dealer/addict. WAS... it took him awhile to break that addiction, but the community was quick to cast him off all together as a human being. When he got out of rehab I would hear the local buzz every now and then, but you know what screw em, if they cant except the fact that someone can get better they should be the ones to be judged. Espcially when most of em harp on religion, look in that book you call the Bible every now and then, i guarantee you will see the word FORGIVENESS more then your two hands cant count..

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-30-2011, 06:28 PM
She expressed her opinion, and now we're expressing ours.
For sure. I just know that I was one that thought the whole Ray Lewis saga in the Super Bowl was fair game and they should have addressed it. I hold Steeler players to the same standards of indiscretion as other team's players.


That's all well and fine but she put her email out there so that's her problem not mine. :heh:

Yeah, she probably expects it just like Skip Bayless expects to hear from the fans he stirs up. I just think its fair considering what Ben has been accused of multiple times.

Godfather
01-30-2011, 06:38 PM
That's all well and fine but she put her email out there so that's her problem not mine. :heh:

Someone should send her email address to the Nigerian scammers :)

BPS3akaWirels3
01-30-2011, 07:16 PM
Looks like all the Sports writers are coming out of the woodwork this week and trying to dump on the Steelers.. Read this on the BaltimoreSun forums

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=fleming/110127&sportCat=nfl

Dino 6 Rings
01-30-2011, 09:52 PM
Ben should respond with something like. "I am happy you asked that question. I have been expecting that this issue would arise in this setting. Once again I will state that my personal life was not being lived up to the standard that is expected of all NFL football players. I have taken steps to bring my personal life back to the standard that my parents raised me with and to the standards expected of me by the Steelers organization. I would just like to take this opportunity to thank all those who stood by me and are continuing to stand by me. Next question please."

exactly.

And guess what people...He was involved in at least two "Frat Boy" type scenarios...

Craic
01-30-2011, 11:29 PM
Gotta ask.

Is there anything in that article that is not true? Did she lie or pull a Michael Moore (association by placement)?

The answer to both of those questions is no. Don't get mad at her for this article. Get mad at Ben for creating an incident where this article could be written.


The funniest thing is, once again, for those who are up in arms about everything anti-Ben- This gets posted in this forum AGAIN, bringing up ANOTHER thread about the very subject that no one wants to remember.

Furthermore, it does the very thing that makes Ann Killion's bosses happy. It drives more and more hits to her article. One or two, or 100 or 200 cancellations won't bother them, not when the controversy drives more and more hits.

Congrats on making Ann Killion's job even more secure and at the same time, dragging SU through another round of Did He or Didn't He.

tube517
01-30-2011, 11:46 PM
The haters will hate and the players will play. When the 7th Lombardi is raised, and the confetti drops and the stadium is emptied, this will all be over and the parade in Pittsburgh will focus on whether Troy does another stage dive into the crowd.

solardave
01-31-2011, 01:06 AM
Who in the blue hell is Ann Killion?

Exactly!!!!

Craic
01-31-2011, 02:49 AM
The haters will hate and the players will play. When the 7th Lombardi is raised, and the confetti drops and the stadium is emptied, this will all be over and the parade in Pittsburgh will focus on whether Troy does another stage dive into the crowd.

Haters? Because someone dare questions the idea of Ben the victim overcoming great odds to come back and play in a SB?

The word is so overused as to not even really have a meaning anymore. It has become the equivalent of the reductio ad Hitler argument.

memphissteelergirl
01-31-2011, 07:05 AM
Gotta ask.

Is there anything in that article that is not true? Did she lie or pull a Michael Moore (association by placement)?

The answer to both of those questions is no. Don't get mad at her for this article. Get mad at Ben for creating an incident where this article could be written.


The funniest thing is, once again, for those who are up in arms about everything anti-Ben- This gets posted in this forum AGAIN, bringing up ANOTHER thread about the very subject that no one wants to remember.

Furthermore, it does the very thing that makes Ann Killion's bosses happy. It drives more and more hits to her article. One or two, or 100 or 200 cancellations won't bother them, not when the controversy drives more and more hits.

Congrats on making Ann Killion's job even more secure and at the same time, dragging SU through another round of Did He or Didn't He.

Preacher,

NOBODY is denying what Ben did. Furthermore, no one is denying that he acted like an ass, embarassed himself, his family and the entire Steelers organization. What I and others are resenting is that this is being re-hashed in such in vitriolic way that it borders on being just plain old spiteful.
Let me ask you something: If Michael Vick were playing in the SB instead of Ben, do you think it would be this bad? All I have been hearing on him (not to say that it is not justisfied) that his story is one about second chances and redemption. So why is it that Ben, who seems to be back on the straight and narrow, cannot have the same consideration? It just seems like there is a double standard here.

tube517
01-31-2011, 09:30 AM
Yes, hate. And I wan't referring to ANYONE on this board. I was referring to the journalists and the fans of other teams. Specifically, Ann Killion, who I still don't know who she is.

People hate for different reasons. Sure, she can write about Ben's transgressions and stupid decisions. I am in the minority and believed Ben deserved his suspension. It is over. The investigation is over. The incident is over. Will Ben have to live with it for the rest of his life? Yes.


Haters? Because someone dare questions the idea of Ben the victim overcoming great odds to come back and play in a SB?



The word is so overused as to not even really have a meaning anymore. It has become the equivalent of the reductio ad Hitler argument.

Shawn
01-31-2011, 09:44 AM
Gotta ask.

Is there anything in that article that is not true? Did she lie or pull a Michael Moore (association by placement)?

The answer to both of those questions is no. Don't get mad at her for this article. Get mad at Ben for creating an incident where this article could be written.


The funniest thing is, once again, for those who are up in arms about everything anti-Ben- This gets posted in this forum AGAIN, bringing up ANOTHER thread about the very subject that no one wants to remember.

Furthermore, it does the very thing that makes Ann Killion's bosses happy. It drives more and more hits to her article. One or two, or 100 or 200 cancellations won't bother them, not when the controversy drives more and more hits.

Congrats on making Ann Killion's job even more secure and at the same time, dragging SU through another round of Did He or Didn't He.

I have a problem with "reporters" assuming guilt when our legal system could not find EVIDENCE to CHARGE HIM. That's where these stories should have ended. Period. Did he tarnish his legacy; did he make the Steelers look bad? YES. But it's over. He served his suspension. This type of article is bullshit reporting - just written to get extra hits on a website at the expense of Roethlisberger and the Steelers. That's what I have a problem with.

steeldawg
01-31-2011, 05:56 PM
I have a problem with "reporters" assuming guilt when our legal system could not find EVIDENCE to CHARGE HIM. That's where these stories should have ended. Period. Did he tarnish his legacy; did he make the Steelers look bad? YES. But it's over. He served his suspension. This type of article is bullshit reporting - just written to get extra hits on a website at the expense of Roethlisberger and the Steelers. That's what I have a problem with.

This^^

Craic
01-31-2011, 06:26 PM
Preacher,

NOBODY is denying what Ben did. Furthermore, no one is denying that he acted like an ass, embarassed himself, his family and the entire Steelers organization. What I and others are resenting is that this is being re-hashed in such in vitriolic way that it borders on being just plain old spiteful.
Let me ask you something: If Michael Vick were playing in the SB instead of Ben, do you think it would be this bad? All I have been hearing on him (not to say that it is not justisfied) that his story is one about second chances and redemption. So why is it that Ben, who seems to be back on the straight and narrow, cannot have the same consideration? It just seems like there is a double standard here.

I don't understand how pointing out how easy a sports industry forgets charges of rape, and instead turns the accused into the victim to create a "comeback story" is vitriolic and wrong. Her target in this story is not Ben, but the press and how the framing everything.

She HERSELF even admits that he wasn't charged. She also clarifies that it doesn't mean anything didn't happen. Both of which is true. Instead of claiming something did, she quites the D.A. Again, that is actually quite responsible.

Her vitriol shows when discussing how quickly people want to take ON FIELD heroics, and erase OFF FIELD actions.

Do I think she really hurt her article by how she wrote? Yes. Do I think she has a good point? Yes.

And by the way... how many stories like this have we seen this week? 2. The rest all start with what he "had to endure" and ends up with him "leading his team to the SB". Michael Vick? Yep, we'd probably see the same, if not MORE. And don't forget, Michael Vick's actions were 3 years ago or more. Not just 10 months ago. Yet, look at his press:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/29/AR2011012902542_2.html

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2011/01/08/16813926.html

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/222/2011/january/28/vick-draws-strongest-opinions.html

Or how about this one. http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/26/news/companies/michael_vick_endorsement/ where 60 percent of the paragraphs either mention dog fighting, conviction, or jail.

http://thestir.cafemom.com/home_garden/114838/animal_abuser_michael_vick_wants

And all of these are on the first page of a google news search.

No, I think there would be just as much, if not MORE press if it was Vick prepping for the SB.

We really need to stop with the woe is us mentality.

memphissteelergirl
01-31-2011, 06:43 PM
Preacher, I would love more than anything for this whole issue to go away. But realistically I know that's not going to happen. What I would like is for columnists like this Killion woman to write more objectively, that's all.

And frankly that's all I am going to say on this subject.

Craic
01-31-2011, 06:59 PM
Preacher, I would love more than anything for this whole issue to go away. But realistically I know that's not going to happen. What I would like is for columnists like this Killion woman to write more objectively, that's all.

And frankly that's all I am going to say on this subject.

What???? You want a member of the MEDIA to write without bias?
Look, I know exactly what you are saying. In short, it is the exact same issue I have with politics today. Everyone is so busy arguing their point of view and turning every last little factiod to their favor in support or against something, that no one seems to care about what actually happened, and what continues to happen now.

It goes back to a basic epistemological argument I make. There is no observation without interpretation. The problem is, that interpretation is guided by the framework we bring to the observation. Thus, there is no such thing as objectivity. There is however, treating subjects fairly, and unfairly.

Had I written this article, it would have sounded very different. I would have differentiated between Ben, who seems to be making an effort to change who he is, and the press who are just trying to drive another feel-good story to up their own ratings. What she did, and what I think you are reacting to (please tell me if I am wrong), is her amalgamation of the two into one single issue that makes it sound like Ben himself is driving this, and is now reveling in the comeback story. That is shoddy writing, but what can you expect from an editor? :chuckle:

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-31-2011, 09:38 PM
Gotta ask.

Is there anything in that article that is not true? Did she lie or pull a Michael Moore (association by placement)?

The answer to both of those questions is no. Don't get mad at her for this article. Get mad at Ben for creating an incident where this article could be written.


The funniest thing is, once again, for those who are up in arms about everything anti-Ben- This gets posted in this forum AGAIN, bringing up ANOTHER thread about the very subject that no one wants to remember.

Furthermore, it does the very thing that makes Ann Killion's bosses happy. It drives more and more hits to her article. One or two, or 100 or 200 cancellations won't bother them, not when the controversy drives more and more hits.

Congrats on making Ann Killion's job even more secure and at the same time, dragging SU through another round of Did He or Didn't He.

Gotta say I agree with you on this topic Preach. She wrote a middle of the road opinion piece that just about any female(and some male) NFL fan in St. Louis, Detroit, San Francisco, New York, etc would not find controversial. Cant really find anything in that article that is a lie. Some Steeler fans just cant bear to hear that their idols may have flaws.

zulater
01-31-2011, 10:47 PM
Gotta say I agree with you on this topic Preach. She wrote a middle of the road opinion piece that just about any female(and some male) NFL fan in St. Louis, Detroit, San Francisco, New York, etc would not find controversial. Cant really find anything in that article that is a lie. Some Steeler fans just cant bear to hear that their idols may have flaws.

Midde of the road my ass! And Preacher very much implied that the writer did in fact bring her bias to the story!

And there's lies, then there's ommisions, then there's presenting a one sided argument which is exactly what Killion did. She presented the accusers statments as absolute fact! That's wrong and absolute bullshit when the girl in question refused to cooperate further with authorities after giving highly contradictory and inconsistent statements. How do you think that girl's story would have stood up to cross examination? We don't know do we, because charges were never filed, because there was no fucking case!

Jeezus, I still think deep down that Ben might have been better off charged and then acquitted in court.( as he damn well would have been) Yeah I know he would have missed this season, the Steelers would have never got a whiff of this Super Bowl. But at least he would have had the ability to face his accuser and shut up people who don't even know half the story yet condemn this man as if he were guilty now and will forever more.

Craic
02-01-2011, 12:45 AM
Midde of the road my ass! And Preacher very much implied that the writer did in fact bring her bias to the story!

And there's lies, then there's ommisions, then there's presenting a one sided argument which is exactly what Killion did. She presented the accusers statments as absolute fact! That's wrong and absolute bullshit when the girl in question refused to cooperate further with authorities after giving highly contradictory and inconsistent statements. How do you think that girl's story would have stood up to cross examination? We don't know do we, because charges were never filed, because there was no fucking case!

Jeezus, I still think deep down that Ben might have been better off charged and then acquitted in court.( as he damn well would have been) Yeah I know he would have missed this season, the Steelers would have never got a whiff of this Super Bowl. But at least he would have had the ability to face his accuser and shut up people who don't even know half the story yet condemn this man as if he were guilty now and will forever more.

Like O.J. was?

My exact point, is that EVERYONE makes up their OWN mind-just like in the OJ case. It doesn't matter that he was found innocent, everyone still assumed guilt. Just as you are SO convinced that Ben is innocent, others are convinced that he is guilty. Your opinion, or their opinion, is not superior. It doesn't matter whether it went to court or not. It doesn't matter if he was charged or not. After all, how many people think Ray Lewis actually murdered someone? He did nothing of the sort. The only thing he was found guilty of, was lying to investigators about who was in the Limo. All the witnesses against him changed their story, except one... a man known to the police as a con artist. Ray's white suit is missing, but no one knows what happened to it (just like Ben was gone, and no one knows what actually happened).

Yet-- it seems okay to always bring up "Ray the Knife" or "Stabbit Ray" (Heck, I do it all the time), but Ben somehow should be deemed untouchable? Sorry. While I am proud of my QB for what he has done on the field, and proud of him for what seems like a large bout of maturity in the last few months, I choose not to blindly support anyone simply because of laundry. NO ONE KNOWS what happened that night-as a result, her article is as valid as your statements that nothing happened.

GodfatherofSoul
02-01-2011, 12:54 AM
Like O.J. was?

My exact point, is that EVERYONE makes up their OWN mind-just like in the OJ case. It doesn't matter that he was found innocent, everyone still assumed guilt. Just as you are SO convinced that Ben is innocent, others are convinced that he is guilty. Your opinion, or their opinion, is not superior. It doesn't matter whether it went to court or not. It doesn't matter if he was charged or not. After all, how many people think Ray Lewis actually murdered someone? He did nothing of the sort. The only thing he was found guilty of, was lying to investigators about who was in the Limo. All the witnesses against him changed their story, except one... a man known to the police as a con artist. Ray's white suit is missing, but no one knows what happened to it (just like Ben was gone, and no one knows what actually happened).

Yet-- it seems okay to always bring up "Ray the Knife" or "Stabbit Ray" (Heck, I do it all the time), but Ben somehow should be deemed untouchable? Sorry. While I am proud of my QB for what he has done on the field, and proud of him for what seems like a large bout of maturity in the last few months, I choose not to blindly support anyone simply because of laundry. NO ONE KNOWS what happened that night-as a result, her article is as valid as your statements that nothing happened.

I agree with part of your argument, but you contradict yourself in the end. It's one thing to form an opinion based on the available evidence, it's another to latch onto whatever storyline the media is pimping. There's pretty good evidence that no assault occurred based on what the victim and her friends said. This isn't a classic date rape case where it's strictly he-said-she-said.

X-Terminator
02-01-2011, 12:57 AM
Sorry, but once again, I must state exactly how I feel about this article...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-3Iq3XQkAw

Ann Killion...your 15 minutes of fame are up. You may now fade back into obscurity.

Craic
02-01-2011, 01:47 AM
I agree with part of your argument, but you contradict yourself in the end. It's one thing to form an opinion based on the available evidence, it's another to latch onto whatever storyline the media is pimping. There's pretty good evidence that no assault occurred based on what the victim and her friends said. This isn't a classic date rape case where it's strictly he-said-she-said.

Rape does NOT mean there must be an assault.

Never the less, my point does stand. There is no observation without interpretation. As a result, what ever people bring to the observation, will color the observation. Hence, no one truly KNOWS what happened. The article author's observations are her own, and just as valid as anyone else's observations-and just as tainted and biased as everyone posting here--- and those posting here, just as tainted and biased has hers.

Edit: Realized you said, "Classic" rape case. By that, do you mean the "snatch them in a dark alley" type classic case? If so, then I agree. Heck, personally, I think if EVERY last fact came out, it STILL wouldn't amount to rape. But that doesn't change anything I have argued here.

zulater
02-01-2011, 04:56 AM
Like O.J. was?

I guess I missed the part where Ben was arrested and tried?

My exact point, is that EVERYONE makes up their OWN mind-just like in the OJ case. It doesn't matter that he was found innocent,


He was found not guilty, not innocent, and Ben was never charged, I could manuever an aircraft carrier through those two points.

everyone still assumed guilt.

Yeah well reasonable people do tend to see the validity of DNA evidence, sadly the jury in O.J.'s case was agenda driven, much like Ms. Killion here.

Just as you are SO convinced that Ben is innocent,

I'm not convinced of anything other than an uncharged man is entitled to some presumption of evidence, and that witness statements from accusers shouldn't be trotted out as unimpeachable if they were never subjected to cross examination.

others are convinced that he is guilty.


I think those people are largley uninformed and go strictly on the theory of where there's smoke there's fire.

Your opinion, or their opinion, is not superior. It doesn't matter whether it went to court or not.


Bullshit, that means everything here. The old saying is a good D.A. can indict a ham sandwich. Even if the DA thinks he has a difficult case to prosecute if he's concvinced of guilt he'll take the case before a Grand jury realizing that non career criminal types will usually plea down to a lesser offense if you put enough heat on them. Ben's so called posse weren't thugs, they had careers, families, lives, they wouldn't jeapordize their future's to save someone they believed commited a felony if pressured suffeciently. ( as opposed to Vick's crew wherein the victim of the shooting even dummied up for the investigation) If Bright really believed a crime had been commited that case would have gone to the Grand Jury! Period!


It doesn't matter if he was charged or not. After all, how many people think Ray Lewis actually murdered someone? He did nothing of the sort. The only thing he was found guilty of, was lying to investigators about who was in the Limo. All the witnesses against him changed their story, except one... a man known to the police as a con artist. Ray's white suit is missing, but no one knows what happened to it (just like Ben was gone, and no one knows what actually happened).


Yet-- it seems okay to always bring up "Ray the Knife" or "Stabbit Ray" (Heck, I do it all the time),

Well thankfully I've never been one of those people.

but Ben somehow should be deemed untouchable? Sorry. While I am proud of my QB for what he has done on the field, and proud of him for what seems like a large bout of maturity in the last few months, I choose not to blindly support anyone simply because of laundry. NO ONE KNOWS what happened that night-as a result, her article is as valid as your statements that nothing happened.

Killion assumes too much, it was an unfair and uniformative hack piece. SI should have never run it.

Craic
02-01-2011, 05:39 AM
Like O.J. was?

I guess I missed the part where Ben was arrested and tried?

My exact point, is that EVERYONE makes up their OWN mind-just like in the OJ case. It doesn't matter that he was found innocent,


He was found not guilty, not innocent, and Ben was never charged, I could manuever an aircraft carrier through those two points.

everyone still assumed guilt.

Yeah well reasonable people do tend to see the validity of DNA evidence, sadly the jury in O.J.'s case was agenda driven, much like Ms. Killion here.

Just as you are SO convinced that Ben is innocent,

I'm not convinced of anything other than an uncharged man is entitled to some presumption of evidence, and that witness statements from accusers shouldn't be trotted out as unimpeachable if they were never subjected to cross examination.

others are convinced that he is guilty.


I think those people are largley uninformed and go strictly on the theory of where there's smoke there's fire.

Your opinion, or their opinion, is not superior. It doesn't matter whether it went to court or not.


Bullshit, that means everything here. The old saying is a good D.A. can indict a ham sandwich. Even if the DA thinks he has a difficult case to prosecute if he's concvinced of guilt he'll take the case before a Grand jury realizing that non career criminal types will usually plea down to a lesser offense if you put enough heat on them. Ben's so called posse weren't thugs, they had careers, families, lives, they wouldn't jeapordize their future's to save someone they believed commited a felony if pressured suffeciently. ( as opposed to Vick's crew wherein the victim of the shooting even dummied up for the investigation) If Bright really believed a crime had been commited that case would have gone to the Grand Jury! Period!


It doesn't matter if he was charged or not. After all, how many people think Ray Lewis actually murdered someone? He did nothing of the sort. The only thing he was found guilty of, was lying to investigators about who was in the Limo. All the witnesses against him changed their story, except one... a man known to the police as a con artist. Ray's white suit is missing, but no one knows what happened to it (just like Ben was gone, and no one knows what actually happened).


Yet-- it seems okay to always bring up "Ray the Knife" or "Stabbit Ray" (Heck, I do it all the time),

Well thankfully I've never been one of those people.

but Ben somehow should be deemed untouchable? Sorry. While I am proud of my QB for what he has done on the field, and proud of him for what seems like a large bout of maturity in the last few months, I choose not to blindly support anyone simply because of laundry. NO ONE KNOWS what happened that night-as a result, her article is as valid as your statements that nothing happened.

Killion assumes too much, it was an unfair and uniformative hack piece. SI should have never run it.


Thank you for illustrating my point.


It goes back to a basic epistemological argument I make. There is no observation without interpretation. The problem is, that interpretation is guided by the framework we bring to the observation. Thus, there is no such thing as objectivity.

steeldawg
02-01-2011, 07:36 AM
Like O.J. was?

My exact point, is that EVERYONE makes up their OWN mind-just like in the OJ case. It doesn't matter that he was found innocent, everyone still assumed guilt. Just as you are SO convinced that Ben is innocent, others are convinced that he is guilty. Your opinion, or their opinion, is not superior. It doesn't matter whether it went to court or not. It doesn't matter if he was charged or not. After all, how many people think Ray Lewis actually murdered someone? He did nothing of the sort. The only thing he was found guilty of, was lying to investigators about who was in the Limo. All the witnesses against him changed their story, except one... a man known to the police as a con artist. Ray's white suit is missing, but no one knows what happened to it (just like Ben was gone, and no one knows what actually happened).

Yet-- it seems okay to always bring up "Ray the Knife" or "Stabbit Ray" (Heck, I do it all the time), but Ben somehow should be deemed untouchable? Sorry. While I am proud of my QB for what he has done on the field, and proud of him for what seems like a large bout of maturity in the last few months, I choose not to blindly support anyone simply because of laundry. NO ONE KNOWS what happened that night-as a result, her article is as valid as your statements t nothing happened.

Umm actually it does matter if it went to court, and it does matter that he wasnt charged, and it matters that he wasnt even arrested. These are all facts that happened why wouldnt they be factored in to a persons opinion? I agree nobody knows what happened, but luckily for Ben the people who investigated it had to deal with facts rather than media or thecourt of public opinion. Ray lewis no i dont believe he killed anyone and no i dont believe ben raped anyone. For Lewis, the investigators had to deal with facts instead of public opinion. So really it appears that articles like these keep people assuming guilt and ignoring facts.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-01-2011, 09:10 AM
I dont get what the big deal is. If the story went back in time and substituted the name Ben Roethlisberger for Mark Chumura....nobody on this board would care at all.

SteelerFanInStl
02-01-2011, 10:53 AM
She's a hack who always tries to stir shit up. I remember when I lived in the SF Bay Area and she wrote for the San Jose Mercury News. Her articles weren't even worth reading. I see that some things never change.

Craic
02-01-2011, 02:34 PM
I dont get what the big deal is. If the story went back in time and substituted the name Ben Roethlisberger for Mark Chumura....nobody on this board would care at all.

Bingo.

Craic
02-01-2011, 02:34 PM
Umm actually it does matter if it went to court, and it does matter that he wasnt charged, and it matters that he wasnt even arrested. These are all facts that happened why wouldnt they be factored in to a persons opinion? I agree nobody knows what happened, but luckily for Ben the people who investigated it had to deal with facts rather than media or thecourt of public opinion. Ray lewis no i dont believe he killed anyone and no i dont believe ben raped anyone. For Lewis, the investigators had to deal with facts instead of public opinion. So really it appears that articles like these keep people assuming guilt and ignoring facts.

May I suggest you re-read my post. You have seemed to completely miss my point and in doing so, completely reinforce my point.

HometownGal
02-01-2011, 02:40 PM
I dont get what the big deal is. If the story went back in time and substituted the name Ben Roethlisberger for Mark Chumura....nobody on this board would care at all.

Gonz - while I understand where you're coming from, you have to remember that a lot of Steelers fans consider their players as "extended family" and when it comes to family - though you may want to knock their blocks off for being stupid at times, you always have their backs.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-01-2011, 04:12 PM
Gonz - while I understand where you're coming from, you have to remember that a lot of Steelers fans consider their players as "extended family" and when it comes to family - though you may want to knock their blocks off for being stupid at times, you always have their backs.

Then those Steeler fans should refrain from taking shots at other teams players for their indiscretions if they don't want their favorite "son" to be criticized.

I've been a Steeler fan for over 30 years. Draped my day old son in a terrible towel while still in the hospital and I refuse to teach him to be a hypocrite by "having the back" of Steeler players at all costs, but its OK to call Ray Lewis a killer or Tom Brady a deadbeat dad to his ex's child.

I purchased my son a #7 jersey before Ben played a game in the NFL. But he isnt above responsibility for his actions off the field because of what he does ON the field. I think that is part of the article.

GodfatherofSoul
02-01-2011, 07:26 PM
Rape does NOT mean there must be an assault.

Edit: Realized you said, "Classic" rape case. By that, do you mean the "snatch them in a dark alley" type classic case? If so, then I agree. Heck, personally, I think if EVERY last fact came out, it STILL wouldn't amount to rape. But that doesn't change anything I have argued here.

What I mean is based on the initial cop's interviews, it didn't sound like there was really an assault. Just a drunk girl who went into a back room and serviced a rich and famous guy. If it was just Ben and the girl coming out of the room with different stories, then I'd say there's room for interpretation. I would NOT defend Ben if I even suspected there was an assault. I've been in this environment before partying with college and pro players and seeing how the groupies act. And, I've seen after-the-fact rape accusations get thrown around by these girls for some really stupid reasons, too.

BPS3akaWirels3
02-01-2011, 07:43 PM
Boy, the articles are coming out of the woodwork trying to attack the Steelers...

http://deadspin.com/5354828/why-your-team-sucks-pittsburgh-steelers

Craic
02-02-2011, 12:47 AM
What I mean is based on the initial cop's interviews, it didn't sound like there was really an assault. Just a drunk girl who went into a back room and serviced a rich and famous guy. If it was just Ben and the girl coming out of the room with different stories, then I'd say there's room for interpretation. I would NOT defend Ben if I even suspected there was an assault. I've been in this environment before partying with college and pro players and seeing how the groupies act. And, I've seen after-the-fact rape accusations get thrown around by these girls for some really stupid reasons, too.

Here is where I think many people get hung up. If she felt pressured, and she was afraid to say no, then any sexual contact whatsoever is considered illegal-be it rape, sexual molestation, or rape. I do believe she was afraid to say no. I also believe Ben didn't intend for that scenario to happen. It is for those reasons that there is complete lack of physical evidence IMO. Ben didn't throw her against a wall and rip her pants off, or push her into a corner and force himself on her or demand from her. I think she just got in too deep, and then was afraid to say no due to his physical size and probably his attempts to manipulate her into sex. Some things happened, and then either he realized she wasn't responsive, or she final spoke up. THAT, IMO, is why it is so gray- why things seem confused, and why Ben was so shocked.

I have no doubt that there are women who claim rape when it never happened. I also have no doubt that most Steelers fans immediately thought that is what happened and went searching the evidence looking for proof of preconceived notions.

Craic
02-02-2011, 12:50 AM
Boy, the articles are coming out of the woodwork trying to attack the Steelers...

http://deadspin.com/5354828/why-your-team-sucks-pittsburgh-steelers

I don't know ... He seems to hit the nail on the head here.


No fanbase is more spoiled rotten than this one. Visit any Steelers message board and you will STILL find fans who don't think Ben Roethlisberger is a good QB. If the team shows any deficiency (offensive line), Steelers fan will concentrate solely on THAT aspect of the team, so that they might whine about it the whole year long. Oh no! My team isn't as flawless as I'd like it to be! DON'T YOU SYMPATHIZE? Nope. Not a lick.

HometownGal
02-02-2011, 07:03 AM
Then those Steeler fans should refrain from taking shots at other teams players for their indiscretions if they don't want their favorite "son" to be criticized.



I think most people, when it comes to their own, tend to wear the hypocritical hat. Just a fact of life. :noidea:


I've been a Steeler fan for over 30 years. Draped my day old son in a terrible towel while still in the hospital and I refuse to teach him to be a hypocrite by "having the back" of Steeler players at all costs, but its OK to call Ray Lewis a killer or Tom Brady a deadbeat dad to his ex's child.



I've got you by at least 15 years on being a Steelers fan. ;) :heh:

Ray Lewis, Donte Stallworth, Michael Vick - and the list goes on - were actually arrested and charged with criminal actions. Stallworth and Vick did time in the pokey. Ben was NOT arrested OR charged with any crime. I can't speak for others, but I would have a totally different attitude towards Ben if he had actually been arrested and formally charged. I dated both an NFL player and an NHL player in my younger years and can tell you from experience that groupies who throw themselves (literally) at professional athletes really do exist - even more so now than they did back then. I've seen it with my own baby blues.


But he isnt above responsibility for his actions off the field because of what he does ON the field. I think that is part of the article.

Again - this is something that happened 11 months ago and Ben was never charged with anything - other than being just plain stupid. He knows what the risks are and what he has to continue to do to accomplish his goals and imho - he's off to a damned good start. I don't believe anyone - including most Steelers fans - want to brush this all under the rug. It's done . . . it's over with . . . it's time for everyone - including the media - to move on.

memphissteelergirl
02-02-2011, 07:11 AM
I think most people, when it comes to their own, tend to wear the hypocritical hat. Just a fact of life. :noidea:



I've got you by at least 15 years on being a Steelers fan. ;) :heh:

Ray Lewis, Donte Stallworth, Michael Vick - and the list goes on - were actually arrested and charged with criminal actions. Stallworth and Vick did time in the pokey. Ben was NOT arrested OR charged with any crime. I can't speak for others, but I would have a totally different attitude towards Ben if he had actually be arrested and formally charged. I dated both an NFL player and an NHL player in my younger years and can tell you from experience that groupies who throw themselves (literally) at professional athletes really do exist - even more so now than they did back then. I've seen it with my own baby blues.



Again - this is something that happened 11 months ago and Ben was never charged with anything - other than being just plain stupid. He knows what the risks are and what he has to continue to do to accomplish his goals and imho - he's off to a damned good start. I don't believe anyone - including most Steelers fans - want to brush this all under the rug. It's done . . . it's over with . . . it's time for everyone - including the media - to move on.

:amen:

BPS3akaWirels3
02-02-2011, 07:22 AM
Then those Steeler fans should refrain from taking shots at other teams players for their indiscretions if they don't want their favorite "son" to be criticized.

I've been a Steeler fan for over 30 years. Draped my day old son in a terrible towel while still in the hospital and I refuse to teach him to be a hypocrite by "having the back" of Steeler players at all costs, but its OK to call Ray Lewis a killer or Tom Brady a deadbeat dad to his ex's child.

I purchased my son a #7 jersey before Ben played a game in the NFL. But he isnt above responsibility for his actions off the field because of what he does ON the field. I think that is part of the article.

The whole point of all this is that not one of us was there, including the media. None of it's factual and it's been blown out of the water. Did anyone know about Mark S and his arrest?? Ben was never arrested and no one was there other then Ben and these girls who were drunk in the first place. Tom and Ray did what they did and that's the truth... Just like Vick did wrong but I could careless. I had some Eagles fans who I work with call Ben a rapist this week to my face. Did I once bring Vick up and throw it at them?? No, it was not the right time and place. We have all done wrong in some way. LET IT GO..

steeldawg
02-02-2011, 08:23 AM
Here is where I think many people get hung up. If she felt pressured, and she was afraid to say no, then any sexual contact whatsoever is considered illegal-be it rape, sexual molestation, or rape. I do believe she was afraid to say no. I also believe Ben didn't intend for that scenario to happen. It is for those reasons that there is complete lack of physical evidence IMO. Ben didn't throw her against a wall and rip her pants off, or push her into a corner and force himself on her or demand from her. I think she just got in too deep, and then was afraid to say no due to his physical size and probably his attempts to manipulate her into sex. Some things happened, and then either he realized she wasn't responsive, or she final spoke up. THAT, IMO, is why it is so gray- why things seem confused, and why Ben was so shocked.

I have no doubt that there are women who claim rape when it never happened. I also have no doubt that most Steelers fans immediately thought that is what happened and went searching the evidence looking for proof of preconceived notions.

So Women no longer have to say no, they just have to think it or feel it. Sorry I dont buy that, following him from bar to bar drinking heavily wearing a dtf tshirt and flirting with superstars is all her decisions that put her in that place. A girl does all those things, he makes a pass, she doesnt refuse but is thinking i dont think i should this and im supposed to believe that is rape and she is a victim? But like you said its your opinion and i have to disagree with it.

steeldawg
02-02-2011, 08:36 AM
The whole point of all this is that not one of us was there, including the media. None of it's factual and it's been blown out of the water. Did anyone know about Mark S and his arrest?? Ben was never arrested and no one was there other then Ben and these girls who were drunk in the first place. Tom and Ray did what they did and that's the truth... Just like Vick did wrong but I could careless. I had some Eagles fans who I work with call Ben a rapist this week to my face. Did I once bring Vick up and throw it at them?? No, it was not the right time and place. We have all done wrong in some way. LET IT GO..
This is exactly right however we cant let it go because SI wont let us. I dont bring up ray or vick because i dont care what happens to them, but when it comes to Ben sorry I care. I was born a steelers fan and will die a steelers fan so when something happens to a steeler or the organization i connect to it emotionally and i get fired up.

zulater
02-02-2011, 04:42 PM
Thjis is what sticks out to me, when the eventual accuser was first asked if she was raped she said, "no", when asked if she had sex with Ben her answer was " I don't know', her demeanor was described as nonchalant, as the charges were being driven by the friends our accuser was saying "whatever y'all".

She wasn't raped, she knew she wasn't raped, there was no difference of opinion. Men know when they commit rape, woman know when they're being raped. She wasn't in a back alley, she wasn't at any risk to be killed, yet she didn't fight, didn't scream, didn't offer any resistance passive or aggresive. C'mon if she had belted Ben in the mouth or kicked him in the nuts did she really think he was going to batter her in a public place?

The accusation was either a money grab or a face saving gesture on the accusers part, but she wasn't raped.

Ben used poor judgement that night, no one is arguing that, but he's not a rapist.

Craic
02-02-2011, 05:14 PM
So Women no longer have to say no, they just have to think it or feel it. Sorry I dont buy that,
So in other words, if you have sex with a women that is sleeping, it is not rape because she didn't say no? What if you took a gun, laid it on the dresser, as you stood in the doorway, and the just signaled to the girl and said, "Come Here". THen you disrobed her and had sex. Is that not rape? Even though everything that was done was done in order to intimidate her into sex?

I am sorry, but you keep thinking of the girl who has a great time, and then in hindsight says, "Hmm, maybe I shouldn't have done that." Fine, but that is about 2-3% of the rape cases (some accounts put it at 10%). So, the other 90-98 percent of rape cases are actually rape and by extrapolation, most of the "Didn't say anything" came not because they wanted it, and then felt bad. Rather, it was because they feared for their life-or they broke with reality due to the physical violation.

So yes, you SHOULD believe it is rape if a women is thinking "I don't want to do this" IF the next question you ask is, "Why isn't she saying anything?" And the answer is, "She was too afraid" or "She was not able to say no for some reason". Otherwise, technically, you just have to shove your fist down her throat like the South Hill Rapist of Spokane Washington did- and it isn't rape according to your definition-since she didn't say anything.


following him from bar to bar drinking heavily wearing a dtf tshirt and flirting with superstars is all her decisions that put her in that place.
Which NEVER EXCUSES A MAN FORCING HIMSELF ON A WOMAN. PERIOD.


A girl does all those things, he makes a pass, she doesnt refuse but is thinking i dont think i should this
If she didn't refuse.... why not? Fear? Did she feel threatened for her life? Neither you or I will ever know that, only she will.


and im supposed to believe that is rape and she is a victim? But like you said its your opinion and i have to disagree with it.
In all honesty? No, I would hope that you would believe that IT IS POSSIBLE that she is a victim. Sadly, (and I am saying this generally), I have come to believe that people around here think that it is impossible because he wears black and gold laundry.

Craic
02-02-2011, 05:17 PM
Thjis is what sticks out to me, when the eventual accuser was first asked if she was raped she said, "no", when asked if she had sex with Ben her answer was " I don't know', her demeanor was described as nonchalant, as the charges were being driven by the friends our accuser was saying "whatever y'all".

She wasn't raped, she knew she wasn't raped, there was no difference of opinion. Men know when they commit rape, woman know when they're being raped. She wasn't in a back alley, she wasn't at any risk to be killed, yet she didn't fight, didn't scream, didn't offer any resistance passive or aggresive. C'mon if she had belted Ben in the mouth or kicked him in the nuts did she really think he was going to batter her in a public place?

The accusation was either a money grab or a face saving gesture on the accusers part, but she wasn't raped.

Ben used poor judgement that night, no one is arguing that, but he's not a rapist.

MISOGYNISTIC BULLSHIT

I hope you NEVER had a loved one that has to deal with this stuff.


EDIT: I am truly through with this subject-- and am completely sickened.

HometownGal
02-02-2011, 05:24 PM
So in other words, if you have sex with a women that is sleeping, it is not rape because she didn't say no?

Whelp, Father - if she sleeps through sex, she's either unconscious or dead. :heh: ;)




Sadly, (and I am saying this generally), I have come to believe that people around here think that it is impossible because he wears black and gold laundry.

Imho - you're wrong here. People around here - generally of course - are basing their opinions on the FACT that he was not arrested or charged with committing a criminal act. The DA down there knew he would never get an arrest warrant or a conviction because the alleged "victim"'s account of what happened was all over the place and not credible. Any competent DA is going to run like hell from a scenario like that. While you're right that only 2 people know what really happened in that bathroom that night, the evidence that has been made public, along with no arrest made or charges being filed - makes the opinion of a "rape" having occured smell like :poop:

zulater
02-02-2011, 06:00 PM
MISOGYNISTIC BULLSHIT

I hope you NEVER had a loved one that has to deal with this stuff.


EDIT: I am truly through with this subject-- and am completely sickened.

Bullshit right back Preach!!!

I hope you never have a family member falsely accused of a felony!

The girl didn't fight, she didn't tell him to stop, it wasn't a misunderstanding, ( what a load that is) it wasn't rape!

btw, about you being "sickened", you don't think we've all had some personal tradedy in our life? You somehow know that those of us that support Ben haven't been touched by violence in some form or other? I had a favored niece who blew her own brains out because of being physically abused by her boyfriend which in turn caused a late term miscarriage, so don't you dare presume I'm forming an opinion based on football allegiance rather than an intepretation of the facts as I see them!

Now I'm done!

steeldawg
02-02-2011, 07:04 PM
So in other words, if you have sex with a women that is sleeping, it is not rape because she didn't say no? What if you took a gun, laid it on the dresser, as you stood in the doorway, and the just signaled to the girl and said, "Come Here". THen you disrobed her and had sex. Is that not rape? Even though everything that was done was done in order to intimidate her into sex?

I am sorry, but you keep thinking of the girl who has a great time, and then in hindsight says, "Hmm, maybe I shouldn't have done that." Fine, but that is about 2-3% of the rape cases (some accounts put it at 10%). So, the other 90-98 percent of rape cases are actually rape and by extrapolation, most of the "Didn't say anything" came not because they wanted it, and then felt bad. Rather, it was because they feared for their life-or they broke with reality due to the physical violation.

So yes, you SHOULD believe it is rape if a women is thinking "I don't want to do this" IF the next question you ask is, "Why isn't she saying anything?" And the answer is, "She was too afraid" or "She was not able to say no for some reason". Otherwise, technically, you just have to shove your fist down her throat like the South Hill Rapist of Spokane Washington did- and it isn't rape according to your definition-since she didn't say anything.


Which NEVER EXCUSES A MAN FORCING HIMSELF ON A WOMAN. PERIOD.


If she didn't refuse.... why not? Fear? Did she feel threatened for her life? Neither you or I will ever know that, only she will.


In all honesty? No, I would hope that you would believe that IT IS POSSIBLE that she is a victim. Sadly, (and I am saying this generally), I have come to believe that people around here think that it is impossible because he wears black and gold laundry.

You are really reaching now! For all the ladies out there if your mad at your man just keep saying no in your mind while having sex and the next time he pisses you off , you can accuse him of rape. Bs you hang out with a guy all night drinking flirting partying and he makes a pass at you and you dont say no he is supposed to now read your mind?

steeldawg
02-02-2011, 07:12 PM
Bullshit right back Preach!!!

I hope you never have a family member falsely accused of a felony!

The girl didn't fight, she didn't tell him to stop, it wasn't a misunderstanding, ( what a load that is) it wasn't rape!

btw, about you being "sickened", you don't think we've all had some personal tradedy in our life? You somehow know that those of us that support Ben haven't been touched by violence in some form or other? I had a favored niece who blew her own brains out because of being physically abused by her boyfriend which in turn caused a late term miscarriage, so don't you dare presume I'm forming an opinion based on football allegiance rather than an intepretation of the facts as I see them!

Now I'm done!

Good post! And I agree with you there was not one fact in this case that points to rape, hell even the alleged victim couldnt say if she was raped. Being that its a steeler i am more passionate about the case but being a steeler does not change the known facts. And lets not forget per his attorney Ben has not told his side of the story yet.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-02-2011, 08:29 PM
This is pretty funny actually. The post is about Ann Killion being a hack and should be fired.........but yet you devote 4 days of debate to her article. I would say her mission was accomplished.

Not like you can unsuspend Ben. He got suspended for a reason. The Rooneys considered trading him for a reason. He is scrutinized for a reason.

End.

zulater
02-02-2011, 08:37 PM
This is pretty funny actually. The post is about Ann Killion being a hack and should be fired.........but yet you devote 4 days of debate to her article. I would say her mission was accomplished.

Not like you can unsuspend Ben. He got suspended for a reason. The Rooneys considered trading him for a reason. He is scrutinized for a reason.

End.

Actually the Rooney's have gone on record and stated they never considered trading Ben.

SMR
02-02-2011, 09:01 PM
Actually the Rooney's have gone on record and stated they never considered trading Ben.

Wow, I must have missed that. Good to know!

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-02-2011, 09:35 PM
Actually the Rooney's have gone on record and stated they never considered trading Ben.

Link?? All I saw was a story by Ron Cook that Rooney shook his head, but didnt verbally deny it.

zulater
02-03-2011, 10:27 AM
Link?? All I saw was a story by Ron Cook that Rooney shook his head, but didnt verbally deny it.

Find me one that says that they did that's sourced with an actual quote.

http://m.si.com/news/to/to/detail/2541793;jsessionid=0116144375B912C9962E6ED1B71F3BF 8.cnnsi1

Here's a timely link from a Peter King story when the perception of Ben was at it's lowest with actual quotes from Art II, find me anything in there that would lead you to believe the Steelers considered trading Ben.

Also not one team claimed to have been approached by the Steelers with a trade offer from the Steelers. That stuff gets out there if it happens.

zulater
02-03-2011, 10:54 AM
One day soon after the Super Bowl I'm going to write a lengthy discertation on why I believe Ben is innocent of commiting a crime. Why the fact the case was never put to the Grand Jury is extremely important in establishing the innocence of Ben. What was most likely the mind set of Ben's accompanying party, and what kind of people they are, and why they'd be so unlikely to aid a felony or cover one up after the fact. Why the prosecution could have easily manipulated Ben into pleaing down to a lesser offense if there was a substantial belief on their part of he being guilty of a crime.

But for now I'm concentrating my energy on the game ahead.