Arians, Roethlisberger agree on red-zone changes

[stillers4me]

Friday, December 17, 2010
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/201012/20101217steelers_500.jpg
Matt Freed/Post-Gazette
Steelers' quarterback Ben Roethlisberger on his team's red zone play: "We're trying to take the mentality of not trying to score every time."



Quarterback Ben Roethlisberger and coordinator Bruce Arians discussed the Steelers' red-zone problems on offense this week, and both came to the same conclusion: They are held back by their eagerness to reach the end zone.

Could the key to scoring six points instead of three actually lie in the philosophy of trying too hard? Might they reach their goal by settling for less on first down?
The Steelers rank 27th in the NFL, scoring touchdowns just 44.4 percent of the time once they pull inside the opponent's 20.

"B.A. and I talked about it a little bit the other day," Roethlisberger said. "I think we both had the same mindset; you get down there and it's 'how can we score on this play?' "........................

Read more @ http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10351/1111431-66.stm

[stlrtruck]

:blah: :blah: :blah:

Talk is cheap boys! I want results...there's been too much chatter the last few years.

DO or DO NOT, there is NO TRY!

[BigPoppaG]

Red Zone offense on the Steelers?????? What's that?

[tube517]

I posted this before that the offense is always trying for a big play. Ben (and Arians) need to stop trying to force it and be patient.

[Edman]

You either do or you don't. There is no Try.

With Troy in danger of being out Sunday, the Defense won't be there to rescue your butts when you fail to score.

[BuddhaBus]

Hmmmm... Ben and Arians second guessing the play-calling? Where have I heard that before? :scratchchin:

I guess these knuckleheads just don't get it. :sarcasm2:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Hmmmm... Ben and Arians second guessing the play-calling? Where have I heard that before? :scratchchin:

I guess these knuckleheads just don't get it. :sarcasm2:
You are right. Ben and BA are just haters.....they should trust the Coaches and the plays they call in the red zone and just execute.

[BuddhaBus]

You are right. Ben and BA are just haters.....they should trust the Coaches and the plays they call in the red zone and just execute.

Agreed. Just slap the blinders on and continue "business as usual". :thumbsup:

[fansince'76]

My bad. Next time I see a dropped TD pass on 3rd down in the red zone or another dropped pass that hits a receiver in the breadbasket on 3rd down that forces a punt, or watch Mendenhall get met by 3+ defenders three yards deep in the backfield on 3rd-and-goal line against even the worst run defenses, or Chris "The Hold" Kemoeatu cost us another TD or sizable gain to put us in another 3rd-and-15+ situation, I will simply chalk it up to the mongoloid idiot Arians' shitty playcalling. It's all so obvious.

[BuddhaBus]

I'm not attributing ALL of the offensive woes to the playcalling. I give equal blame to the O-line and some to other players, but to ignore the fact that some of the playcalling is to blame is just turning a blind eye to it. Even Ben and Bruce Almighty himself are now publicly accepting that it has been an issue to some degree. I guess they are wrong too.

[stlrtruck]

Red Zone offense on the Steelers?????? What's that?

Incomplete Pass-Run-Run-FG

[fansince'76]

I'm not attributing ALL of the offensive woes to the playcalling. I give equal blame to the O-line and some to other players, but to ignore the fact that some of the playcalling is to blame is just turning a blind eye to it. Even Ben and Bruce Almighty himself are now publicly accepting that it has been an issue to some degree. I guess they are wrong too.

Not turning a blind eye to it, personally - I've questioned a number of the red zone plays that have been called. However, there are plenty who most certainly do attribute ALL of the problems to the playcalling and completely dismiss everything else.

[BuddhaBus]

Not turning a blind eye to it, personally - I've questioned a number of the red zone plays that have been called. However, there are plenty who most certainly do attribute ALL of the problems to the playcalling and completely dismiss everything else.

That's cool. I just thought you were getting a little touchy with my post and felt the need to clarify. On the other end of the spectrum, there seems to be some on here who attribute all of the problems to the O-line and ignore the situational playcalling. It goes both ways depending on your point of view.

[SteelMember]

I think it's all Goodell's fault!

Now, who doesn't agree with that. :chuckle:

[fansince'76]

That's cool. I just thought you were getting a little touchy with my post and felt the need to clarify. On the other end of the spectrum, there seems to be some on here who attribute all of the problems to the O-line and ignore the situational playcalling. It goes both ways depending on your point of view.

Not at all. I agree, there are certainly extremes the other way too. :drink:

[Wallace108]

On the other end of the spectrum, there seems to be some on here who attribute all of the problems to the O-line and ignore the situational playcalling. It goes both ways depending on your point of view.

^^This.

In addition to that article, there's this:


The Steelers are not using the no-huddle offense nearly as often as they have in the past. Roethlisberger would like to use it more.

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/i...not-practicing

Ben is suggesting that they use more no-huddle?
Damn, I wish I had thought of that. :heh:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that our O-line isn't horrible and isn't a big part of the problem. But some of us are being ridiculed for thinking there are other problems other than just the O-line. Unless I'm reading too much into Ben's statements, it sure does sound like he's questioning the offensive strategy and situational play calling. :scratchchin:

Hell, even Arians is bashing Arians ...


Q: How concerned are you by the offense’s inability to score touchdowns in recent weeks?

A: “It’s going to work itself out. We’ve just got to make some plays. The two areas that have been poor are our running game, and our first and 10 passing has not been very good. Probably a little bit my fault going for the end zone too much instead of going for a couple of short ones but it always works itself out.”

http://blog.triblive.com/view-from-t...ss+Box+Blog%29

It's going to work itself out? http://smiliesftw.com/x/facepalmsmiley1ti3.gif

I just hope Arians is smart enough to listen to Ben just like LeBeau listened to Farrior.

[BuddhaBus]

Not at all. I agree, there are certainly extremes the other way too. :drink:

I'm good with that. Nobody's perfect or has all the answers. We're just human beings talking about a game, nothing more. There's no need to fret too much over such trivialities. They're just opinions and we all know what opinions are like. :heh: I just wish more people would understand that and not treat it like it's a life or death pissing contest and they must be right at all costs no matter who is hurt in the process. Agree to disagree and let it go. No need to battle it out or try to debase anyone, just understand this is a forum for debating and discussing these things respectfully without name calling and back handed comments.

We're all Steeler fans here and want the team to do well no matter who is right in the end.

[fansince'76]

We're all Steeler fans here and want the team to do well no matter who is right in the end.

Exactly. And that's about the size of it, really. :drink:

[BuddhaBus]

Exactly. And that's about the size of it, really. :drink:

Right back atcha! :drink:



EDIT: Oh, and :tt03: for good measure!

EDIT 2: I am amazed and quite jealous of our little Towel-waving smilie's ability to wave his Towel and, yet, manage to not spill one single drop of his beer! I really need to take some lessons from that little guy! :sofunny:

[Steeldude]

arians says,
It's probably a little bit of my fault going for the end zone too much instead of going for a couple short ones

how many of us stated this very same thing?

[Wallace108]

arians says,

how many of us stated this very same thing?

Exactly. It's situational play calling. This is what many of us have been claiming for a long time. And now BA himself has admitted it.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery. :tt03:

EDIT: And some better O-linemen wouldn't hurt either. :drink:

[oneforthetoe]

Simple solution. If we get to say the 11 yard line we simply ask one of our o'linemen to get a holding penalty. Then we are are on the 21 and our red zone inefficiency will no longer be a factor.

[Wallace108]

Simple solution. If we get to say the 11 yard line we simply ask one of our o'linemen to get a holding penalty. Then we are are on the 21 and our red zone inefficiency will no longer be a factor.

:toofunny:

Is there really a need to ASK them to hold? :noidea:

[BuddhaBus]

:toofunny:

Is there really a need to ASK them to hold? :noidea:

Please don't. It could have a disastrous effect. I have no desire to see first and goal from our own 17 yard line. :doh2:

[oneforthetoe]

Please don't. It could have a disastrous effect. I have no desire to see first and goal from our own 17 yard line. :doh2:

That would be historic. I wonder what the longest 1st and goal is? My guess is that this record has the Lions written all over it. Of course, we were pretty pathetic ourselves for the first 40 years, so .......

[BuddhaBus]

That would be historic. I wonder what the longest 1st and goal is? My guess is that this record has the Lions written all over it. Of course, we were pretty pathetic ourselves for the first 40 years, so .......

It could be the Bungals. They don't call them that for nothing! :lol:

[Dino 6 Rings]

"we got greedy with the pass"

Really? I mean...Really?

[ALLD]

Maybe we should pretend we are at the 50 yard line when we reach the EZ?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

"we got greedy with the pass"

Really? I mean...Really?

I once attended a coaching clinic, where the coach that was speaking talked about when the Run N' Shoot offense was introduced to the NFL and Al Davis wasnt worried about what Houston was doing with it. Davis believed that it wasnt an offense built for goal line success in the red zone and for that reason it would not succeed long term in the NFL.

Sure the NFL has changed a lot since then, but I still think he was right that you need to be able to line up and pound the ball into the end zone and win ugly games. The Steelers are built to go 4 wide with a 3rd down back lined up next to Ben in the shotgun and throw the ball on the 5 yard line.

[BeerMan]

"we got greedy with the pass"

Really? I mean...Really?

I saw a post on another message board that said of our last 18 red zone plays, 14 of them were runs, and we didn't attempt a pass into the endzone once. I can't verify that, but it sure doesn't seem out of line to me.

[Dino 6 Rings]

I once attended a coaching clinic, where the coach that was speaking talked about when the Run N' Shoot offense was introduced to the NFL and Al Davis wasnt worried about what Houston was doing with it. Davis believed that it wasnt an offense built for goal line success in the red zone and for that reason it would not succeed long term in the NFL.

Sure the NFL has changed a lot since then, but I still think he was right that you need to be able to line up and pound the ball into the end zone and win ugly games. The Steelers are built to go 4 wide with a 3rd down back lined up next to Ben in the shotgun and throw the ball on the 5 yard line.

Redman did score with a quick pass that he carried into the endzone. So that was something.

[Dino 6 Rings]

I saw a post on another message board that said of our last 18 red zone plays, 14 of them were runs, and we didn't attempt a pass into the endzone once. I can't verify that, but it sure doesn't seem out of line to me.

Oh, give me 10 mins...I love to look this stuff up...brb...

[Dino 6 Rings]

Vs Bengals

First Redzone Trip:
Cincy 18.
1st and 10 at CIN 18 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete short left to M.Wallace (L.Hall).
2nd and 10 at CIN 18 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger scrambles up the middle to CIN 5 for 13 yards (T.Nelson).
1st and 5 at CIN 5 (No Huddle) B.Roethlisberger spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2nd and 5 at CIN 5 B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete short middle to M.Spaeth (C.Dunlap).
Timeout #2 by CIN at 00:28.
3rd and 5 at CIN 5 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete short left to H.Ward (B.Johnson) [R.Williams].
4th and 5 at CIN 5 (Field Goal formation) S.Suisham 23 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-J.Kapinos.

Second Redzone Trip:
1st and 9 at CIN 9 R.Mendenhall right tackle to CIN 6 for 3 yards (K.Rivers; R.Williams). PENALTY on PIT-D.Johnson, Offensive Offside, 10 yards, enforced at CIN 9 - No Play.
1st and 19 at CIN 19 B.Roethlisberger pass short left to I.Redman to CIN 13 for 6 yards (K.Rivers).
Timeout #1 by PIT at 09:32.
2nd and 13 at CIN 13 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass short left to A.Randle El to CIN 16 for -3 yards (D.Peko).
3rd and 16 at CIN 16 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep left to M.Wallace. COVERAGE BY #31 WILLIAMS
4th and 16 at CIN 16 (Field Goal formation) S.Suisham 35 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-J.Kapinos.

Third Redzone Trip:
1st and 10 at CIN 18 R.Mendenhall right tackle to CIN 15 for 3 yards (R.Geathers, D.Jones).
2nd and 7 at CIN 15 B.Roethlisberger sacked at CIN 23 for -8 yards (P.Sims).
3rd and 15 at CIN 23 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger sacked at CIN 32 for -9 yards (D.Jones).
4th and 24 at CIN 32 (Punt formation) J.Kapinos punts 22 yards to CIN 10, Center-G.Warren, fair catch by Q.Cosby.

[Dino 6 Rings]

VS Ravens
First Redzone Trip:
1st and 2 at BAL 2 I.Redman up the middle to BLT 4 for -2 yards (T.Suggs).
2nd and 4 at BAL 4 R.Mendenhall left guard to BLT 5 for -1 yards (T.Suggs).
3rd and 5 at BAL 5 B.Roethlisberger pass short right to M.Wallace to BLT 1 for 4 yards (F.Washington, D.Landry).
4th and 1 at BAL 1 (Field Goal formation) S.Suisham 19 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-D.Sepulveda.

2nd Redzone Trip:
1st and 9 at BAL 9 B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete short left to R.Mendenhall [T.Suggs].
Timeout #2 by BLT at 03:04.
2nd and 9 at BAL 9 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete short middle to H.Ward.
3rd and 9 at BAL 9 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass short left to I.Redman for 9 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Vs Bills
First Redzone Trip:
1st and 10 at BUF 24 R.Mendenhall left guard to BUF 18 for 6 yards (A.Ayodele, P.Posluszny).
2nd and 4 at BUF 18 R.Mendenhall right end to BUF 15 for 3 yards (D.Whitner; R.Torbor).
3rd and 1 at BUF 15 I.Redman up the middle to BUF 6 for 9 yards (P.Posluszny, R.Torbor).
1st and 6 at BUF 6 R.Mendenhall up the middle to BUF 4 for 2 yards (K.Williams, A.Ayodele).
2nd and 4 at BUF 4 R.Mendenhall up the middle to BUF 1 for 3 yards (M.Stroud, A.Carrington).
3rd and 1 at BUF 1 R.Mendenhall up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

Second Redzone Trip starting at 22:
1st and 10 at BUF 22 B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep right to E.Sanders. Thrown wide of receiver at goal line.
2nd and 10 at BUF 22 R.Mendenhall up the middle to BUF 27 for -5 yards (K.Williams, J.Byrd).
3rd and 15 at BUF 27 (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep right to H.Miller (R.Corner). Overthrown, under pressure (A.Moats), receiver and breakup along sideline at BUF 7. Penalty on PIT-R.Foster, Ineligible Downfield Pass, declined.
4th and 15 at BUF 27 S.Suisham 45 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Warren, Holder-D.Sepulveda.

[Dino 6 Rings]

I saw a post on another message board that said of our last 18 red zone plays, 14 of them were runs, and we didn't attempt a pass into the endzone once. I can't verify that, but it sure doesn't seem out of line to me.

Yeah...uh...you should stop reading that other board...that guy apparently doesn't watch Steelers football or have access to the Espn Website that shows every play of every game for the last 4 seasons.

[BeerMan]

Yeah...uh...you should stop reading that other board...that guy apparently doesn't watch Steelers football or have access to the Espn Website that shows every play of every game for the last 4 seasons.

OK, I went back and checked and it was 12 out of the last 18 red zones plays before the Cincy game that were runs.

I guess I shouldn't try to squeeze in a post right before I leave work.

[Dino 6 Rings]

OK, I went back and checked and it was 12 out of the last 18 red zones plays before the Cincy game that were runs.

I guess I shouldn't try to squeeze in a post right before I leave work.

Its cool...but this is the best looking drive of the bunch for us "run the damn ball" folks:

Vs Bills
First Redzone Trip:
1st and 10 at BUF 24 R.Mendenhall left guard to BUF 18 for 6 yards (A.Ayodele, P.Posluszny).
2nd and 4 at BUF 18 R.Mendenhall right end to BUF 15 for 3 yards (D.Whitner; R.Torbor).
3rd and 1 at BUF 15 I.Redman up the middle to BUF 6 for 9 yards (P.Posluszny, R.Torbor).
1st and 6 at BUF 6 R.Mendenhall up the middle to BUF 4 for 2 yards (K.Williams, A.Ayodele).
2nd and 4 at BUF 4 R.Mendenhall up the middle to BUF 1 for 3 yards (M.Stroud, A.Carrington).
3rd and 1 at BUF 1 R.Mendenhall up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

[solardave]

:blah: :blah: :blah:

Talk is cheap boys! I want results...there's been too much chatter the last few years.

DO or DO NOT, there is NO TRY!

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!!!

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Redman did score with a quick pass that he carried into the endzone. So that was something.

Yeah, but thankfully he has "suddeness and glide" that helped him break 2 tackles.

I still wish we had the ability to line up and hammer the ball at the end zone.....then when the defense respects the fact that you CAN run the ball in short yardage, you can go play action pass.

I dont care how we get into the end zone, but think you have a better chance of success if your offense isnt 1 dimensional.

[Count Steeler]

Commit to North South in the Red Zone, no bull crap plays, no reverses, and kick the shit out of the Oline if they forget what play they are supposed to block for.

[Texasteel]

Not turning a blind eye to it, personally - I've questioned a number of the red zone plays that have been called. However, there are plenty who most certainly do attribute ALL of the problems to the playcalling and completely dismiss everything else.

Most of us, if not all, have had questions about some of the calls, the difference is that some of us will not blame BA for a play that worked but got fouled up by a dropped ball, at tipped pass, or a holding penalty, and there has been more of those that bad calls. BA is not the whole or even most of the problem here.

[Texasteel]

Exactly. It's situational play calling. This is what many of us have been claiming for a long time. And now BA himself has admitted it.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery. :tt03:

EDIT: And some better O-linemen wouldn't hurt either. :drink:


Wally your making it sound like BA just admitted to setting the Chicago fire. He just said he could do a better job, and we all knew that. He also said the he wanted to try something else, and that may be good, or bad, but we will have to wait and see about that. The Head coach also said that the problems were mostly due to execution. So not we need to fire him?

I think we both can agree that if this OL doesn't play better, there isn't going to be much that works period.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I've always thought that Arians has been creative in the passing game, but can somebody answer me this question..... When was the last time that Bruce Arians coached an offense that was productive in short yardage and red zone situations? Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Temple University??

[pepsyman1]

I think all of us realize there are many factors contributing to our struggles in the red zone. The O line is obviously a big issue. I'm not a BA fan, but I will say that in general I've thought most of the playing calling this year has been better..or at least more appropriate in regards to what the game plan is. I think a major concern for everyone (which has been commented on by others) is that we tend to telegraph our play call by the personnel groups and formations we set up in. Most of the time no one (especially the fans and especially the defenses) is caught off guard by our play calls. They seem to know what's coming on most plays. That's fine if you have a top notch O-line, you can dare teams to stop you. We DON'T have that, so we really need to be able to vary the play calls within some of the play sets. Some of the formations make me groan at home...especially some of these bunch formations with 2 tight ends and the wide receiver in tight and then we do a running play that struggles to get back to the line of scrimmage. If I know we are running on a given play based on the formation and the other fans know, I'm pretty sure all the defenders know too. I'd really like to see us have more variations out of a spread offense and out of a normal 2-1 personnel set. We have the talent at the skill positions to overcome a good deal of our inadequacies on the O line.

[Devilsdancefloor]

my problem has always been the panic button is pushed way to soon in a lot of games and our offense looks like Al Davis ball. I think BA at times out smarts himself, but this year he has been doing a lot better with is calling, but again penalties/dropped passes can not be blamed on any coach.

[tube517]

There is a penalty somewhere in that series....


Incomplete Pass-Run-Run-FG

[Wallace108]

Wally your making it sound like BA just admitted to setting the Chicago fire. He just said he could do a better job, and we all knew that. He also said the he wanted to try something else, and that may be good, or bad, but we will have to wait and see about that. The Head coach also said that the problems were mostly due to execution. So not we need to fire him?

I think we both can agree that if this OL doesn't play better, there isn't going to be much that works period.

Regardless of how good or bad the players are, a coach's job is to put them in a position to succeed. If the coach does this and the players fail to execute, then it's on the players (and yes, we've seen that happen this year).

We have a horrible O-line that can't pass protect and can't run block. Yet on pass plays, BA has insisted on calling a lot of plays involving deep routes that take time to develop. And he has insisted on not utilizing a fullback. Neither of these strategies makes any sense when your O-line is horrible.

I agree that there's not a whole lot Arians can do to make our line look good. But by running shorter routes, using a lead blocker, and not being so predictable with his calls, he could help the line play better. Not great. Maybe not even good. But better. With our defense, we don't need the offense to put up 30 or 40 points a game. Just give the defense a cushion.

So yeah, I think it's good that BA recognizes that his play calling is part of the problem. If our offense is going to be successful, he needs to put it in a position to succeed.

If he makes some changes and we see a noticeable improvement, I'll become the biggest BA cheerleader here at SU. :cheer2:

:drink:

[pepsyman1]

Regardless of how good or bad the players are, a coach's job is to put them in a position to succeed. If the coach does this and the players fail to execute, then it's on the players (and yes, we've seen that happen this year).

We have a horrible O-line that can't pass protect and can't run block. Yet on pass plays, BA has insisted on calling a lot of plays involving deep routes that take time to develop. And he has insisted on not utilizing a fullback. Neither of these strategies makes any sense when your O-line is horrible.

I agree that there's not a whole lot Arians can do to make our line look good. But by running shorter routes, using a lead blocker, and not being so predictable with his calls, he could help the line play better. Not great. Maybe not even good. But better. With our defense, we don't need the offense to put up 30 or 40 points a game. Just give the defense a cushion.

So yeah, I think it's good that BA recognizes that his play calling is part of the problem. If our offense is going to be successful, he needs to put it in a position to succeed.

If he makes some changes and we see a noticeable improvement, I'll become the biggest BA cheerleader here at SU. :cheer2:

:drink:

I gotta agree with Wallace...look at what Belichick's done with New England's defense over the last few weeks. They have a bunch of complete noobies that are suddenly shutting teams down. Even their offense is doing things with rookies and discarded free agents in the mix. He's changed their style to fit the talent. BA has to continue to adjust what he's doing till he finds the right mix and results

[Wallace108]

I gotta agree with Wallace...look at what Belichick's done with New England's defense over the last few weeks. They have a bunch of complete noobies that are suddenly shutting teams down. Even their offense is doing things with rookies and discarded free agents in the mix. He's changed their style to fit the talent. BA has to continue to adjust what he's doing till he finds the right mix and results

Yep. The Patriots D is a good example, pepsy. And look at the Saints. When we played them, they had a backup and I believe a waterboy starting at the corners, yet they were able to pretty much shut down our passing game. And look how horrible the Cowboys were while Wade was still there. Garrett takes over and they're playing a LOT better. It's the same players. :noidea:

EDIT: I'll critique, but I'll no longer "bash" BA. I want him to succeed. If he succeeds, the offense succeeds. If the offense succeeds, the Steelers succeed. If the Steelers succeed, my heart succeeds.

[Craic]

Regardless of how good or bad the players are, a coach's job is to put them in a position to succeed. If the coach does this and the players fail to execute, then it's on the players (and yes, we've seen that happen this year).

We have a horrible O-line that can't pass protect and can't run block. Yet on pass plays, BA has insisted on calling a lot of plays involving deep routes that take time to develop. And he has insisted on not utilizing a fullback. Neither of these strategies makes any sense when your O-line is horrible.

I agree that there's not a whole lot Arians can do to make our line look good. But by running shorter routes, using a lead blocker, and not being so predictable with his calls, he could help the line play better. Not great. Maybe not even good. But better. With our defense, we don't need the offense to put up 30 or 40 points a game. Just give the defense a cushion.

So yeah, I think it's good that BA recognizes that his play calling is part of the problem. If our offense is going to be successful, he needs to put it in a position to succeed.

If he makes some changes and we see a noticeable improvement, I'll become the biggest BA cheerleader here at SU. :cheer2:

:drink:

Thing is Wallace, I also notice a lot of check down patterns. Almost always there is a RB or TE running into the short flat that Ben chooses not to hit until he gets down field as well. Also, when we have seen a FB come in, (and redman, IMO qualifies as a FB) we have just as often seen him get stuffed up in the line thus causing more congestion.

I really don't think the problems are the lack of a Full time run block only FB and deep WR routes, as much as I do the base formations. Like I keep saying, when you line up with 10 of your guys either within the tackles or within 5 yards of the tackles at the snap, that means you have 8-10 guys in the box or near the box when the ball is snapped. THAT, IMO, is the big problem.

The defense gets to tee off, bring whomever they want, without us really knowing because so many are around the box. If we go trips right, then move them out to the numbers. Don't line them up so they look like two extra TE's and an upback at the end of the line.

Then again, when Arians is ON- I have seen him call some amazing plays and games.

However, at this point, (and for a year or two now, to be honest) I am just as ready to see a new OC as I am Arians. I just think a fresh perspective may do our offense good.

[The WH]

i am a firm believer that the offensive line is the root reason for the offensive Joey Lawrences.

with even average line play this offense would have no issues.

[Texasteel]

Regardless of how good or bad the players are, a coach's job is to put them in a position to succeed. If the coach does this and the players fail to execute, then it's on the players (and yes, we've seen that happen this year).

We have a horrible O-line that can't pass protect and can't run block. Yet on pass plays, BA has insisted on calling a lot of plays involving deep routes that take time to develop. And he has insisted on not utilizing a fullback. Neither of these strategies makes any sense when your O-line is horrible.

I agree that there's not a whole lot Arians can do to make our line look good. But by running shorter routes, using a lead blocker, and not being so predictable with his calls, he could help the line play better. Not great. Maybe not even good. But better. With our defense, we don't need the offense to put up 30 or 40 points a game. Just give the defense a cushion.

So yeah, I think it's good that BA recognizes that his play calling is part of the problem. If our offense is going to be successful, he needs to put it in a position to succeed.

If he makes some changes and we see a noticeable improvement, I'll become the biggest BA cheerleader here at SU. :cheer2:

:drink:

Actually, most of our passing has been intermediate and short passes, I believe I have seen the offense use the FB, in fact Ben has been throwing to the FB and TE more. I haven't seen that many deep patterns your talking about. When the line has held, the plays have looked pretty good, but to many times Ben is running for his life before he finishes his drop, or Mendy has ran into a wall before he got to the line.

BA, was talking about red zone plays. From what I got out of the article is that he thought he, and Ben were to anxious to get into the end zone right now instead of working their way in, and that is a valid point. I think too many here are going to try to make this into a confession that he has totally miss used to offense, and is the reason we haven't score the way we should, and that is not a valid point.

BA, admit it or not, has in fact put the players in a position to succeed. Many times the players have failed by dropped passes, missed blocks, or just stupid penalties. BA has made mistakes, everyone here has said that, but all coaches will. He thinks he see's a mistake that both he and Ben have been making and wants to try and fix it. That is to his and Ben's credit. Change for chance sake seldom works. You need an idea of how to fix it. I hope Ben and BA have a good idea, how to fix the red zone problems. We will not have to wait long to find out.

This is still a team. Players and coaches alike have to do their jobs.

[LLT]

I'm not attributing ALL of the offensive woes to the playcalling. I give equal blame to the O-line and some to other players, but to ignore the fact that some of the playcalling is to blame is just turning a blind eye to it. Even Ben and Bruce Almighty himself are now publicly accepting that it has been an issue to some degree. I guess they are wrong too.

There is an issue with the play calling...I'm not sure who ever claimed otherwise. BUT...our play calling was...and is still going to be dictated by our deficiences.
Arians admits that he wants to "go for the endzone". When our line is holding in key situations or collapsing to the tune of 10 yards sacks for losses...I think it WOULD be tempting to "go for it all" when you get inside the 20. The constant of Wallace's speed would make it very tempting .
As I said in another thread....it is also tempting to go to a 4 out with a no huddle but that means we have to face defenses that are in pass coverage on virtually every play (and with our line..those teams are still getting pass pressure with a three man rush). A no huddle will work to an extent but it limits our ability to sub.
Then the question becomes: When we are that close to the endzone are we going to go no huddle and limit our route tree by keeping Sanders and Brown in on every play....or do we go with the vets and substitute Randle el? Same old problem...Experience vs Talent....and both limited by the line play.
I can see why Arians would be tempted to go for the throat on every possession in the red zone.

Wallace asked me what is the answer to compensate for our inexperience at WR and our porous line.....and I think that Ben had the answer. Listen to the QB...and let him have more say in the play calling. Ben is seasoned enough to know who he can trust....where the pressure is coming from....and what call needs to be changed at the line of scrimmage.

That isnt going to totally eliminate dropped balls...wrong route running....bad pass and run blocking....but Arians being willing to listen to Ben (especially in the redzone) is a good step.

[LLT]

Regardless of how good or bad the players are, a coach's job is to put them in a position to succeed. If the coach does this and the players fail to execute, then it's on the players (and yes, we've seen that happen this year).


I think this part is what most people were wanting to make sure you agreed with....We are all saying the same thing just leaning on way or the other as to where the real fault lies.


We have a horrible O-line that can't pass protect and can't run block. Yet on pass plays, BA has insisted on calling a lot of plays involving deep routes that take time to develop. And he has insisted on not utilizing a fullback. Neither of these strategies makes any sense when your O-line is horrible.

But understand....never...NEVER will a coach call a deep route without having the Y reciever running a short route, and a slot reciever lining up on the weak side running a hot route. If the line play falls apart...Ben "should" be able check from the X to the Y recievers route or look for the hot route. There has to be a reason that Ben is not seeing anything on his check down.

From what I am seeing...teams are staying tight on Wallace, knowing that if they can stay with him long enough, the pass protection is going to break down. When Brown and Sanders are playing Y...they often fail to read this and they dont come back to the QB. When Ward is playing Y the defense often has a second DB cheating his way. Whoever is running slot is being covered by a nickel back.

Now there is where your no huddle can help. If we can trick them into a base defense...and start running no huddle while their "Will" linebacker is in the game...then we should be able to create a mismatch with the slot reciever and that linebacker., not allowing them to bring in that extra DB.

That is why we have been succesful with bringing the TE (or RB) across the middle....often when they see a "12" offense with one running back, two TE's, and two WR's...the defense is thinking run. This allows one of our TE's (or our RB) to break off his block and have to be covered by a linebacker.

However...sooner or later they will either call a time out or they will have time to get that extra DB into the game.


I agree that there's not a whole lot Arians can do to make our line look good. But by running shorter routes, using a lead blocker, and not being so predictable with his calls, he could help the line play better. Not great. Maybe not even good. But better. With our defense, we don't need the offense to put up 30 or 40 points a game. Just give the defense a cushion.

A hole that has completely closed isnt alwasys helped by a Fullback....he just becomes another body in the pile that the RB has to get around.



So yeah, I think it's good that BA recognizes that his play calling is part of the problem. If our offense is going to be successful, he needs to put it in a position to succeed.

If he makes some changes and we see a noticeable improvement, I'll become the biggest BA cheerleader here at SU. :cheer2:


LOL!!! I'm holding you to that.

[GoSlash27]

The solution is fairly simple IMO: Set up your formations and sets as if you're actually *IN THE RED ZONE*. Pro-sets and I formations with heavier bodies and more emphasis on the run/ quick passes.
And fer cryin' out loud use Redman and Dwyer more.

[LLT]

Anyone else beginning to think that Kemo is better suited for the right side and that we might have to draft a RG this next year who is athletic enough to pull and get to the second level?

[Devilsdancefloor]

Anyone else beginning to think that Kemo is better suited for the right side and that we might have to draft a RG this next year who is athletic enough to pull and get to the second level?

i was thinking that that, but i was also think sign colon move him to RG and play hotel at RT qand for crying out load please please draft a tackle in the first or second round or BOTH:)

[LLT]

i was thinking that that, but i was also think sign colon move him to RG and play hotel at RT qand for crying out load please please draft a tackle in the first or second round or BOTH:)

I am hoping that Flozell is just a stop gap. But yea...if needed I would have no problem with Colon at RG.

[Texasteel]

Anyone else beginning to think that Kemo is better suited for the right side and that we might have to draft a RG this next year who is athletic enough to pull and get to the second level?


I thought that also. I vividly remember on one play last Sunday Kemo pulling. He looked like a charging Rino. He was coming hard, but had no idea where the target was. He missed the block and the play was stopped. I remember thinking, My God, if he makes that block the only think that would stop Mendy would be the wall behind the EZ.

[Wallace108]

I think this part is what most people were wanting to make sure you agreed with.....
:huh:

I can point to numerous threads where I've said our O-line sucks. I even gave BA a game ball earlier in the season (while holding my nose :chuckle:). And I'm on the record as saying that I thought BA's play calling was rather good when Ben was out. :noidea:

I feel I've been fair in placing the blame and handing out compliments. People on the other side of the debate? Uh, not so much.


LOL!!! I'm holding you to that.

I think there's a belief that those of us who don't like Arians WANT him to fail. That's insane. Like I've said ... if Arians wins, the Steelers win.

[LLT]

:huh:

I can point to numerous threads where I've said our O-line sucks. I even gave BA a game ball earlier in the season (while holding my nose :chuckle:). And I'm on the record as saying that I thought BA's play calling was rather good when Ben was out. :noidea:

I feel I've been fair in placing the blame and handing out compliments. People on the other side of the debate? Uh, not so much.
.

Really?....would you care to provide a quote in which I completey let Arians off the hook?

I think that you are assuming that anyone who understands the reality behind our decimated line and youthful WR corps is an Ariens apologist....and nothing could be farther from the truth.

Understanding WHY Arians playcalling isnt working is not the same as saying the playcalling is okay.

[Chidi29]

Another issue in the red zone is how obviously condensed it becomes. We're probably seeing Wallace doubled by the safety less and less because there's only so much room to run, making the deep ball less of a factor. This allows the defense to move that safety around. When it'd normally be the strong safties job to double, he can now man up on the TE to take away a mismatch of getting a LB on a TE. It adds that extra defender who isn't obligated to help out the corner on Wallace.

In the running game, not having a road grader at RG is really hurting us. Foster looked like a decent in-line blocker earlier in the year, but his play has declined lately. If the line can't get a push, you're not going to run it down on the goalline.

[LLT]

Another issue in the red zone is how obviously condensed it becomes. We're probably seeing Wallace doubled by the safety less and less because there's only so much room to run, making the deep ball less of a factor. This allows the defense to move that safety around. When it'd normally be the strong safties job to double, he can now man up on the TE to take away a mismatch of getting a LB on a TE. It adds that extra defender who isn't obligated to help out the corner on Wallace.

In the running game, not having a road grader at RG is really hurting us. Foster looked like a decent in-line blocker earlier in the year, but his play has declined lately. If the line can't get a push, you're not going to run it down on the goalline.

Great post....You and I have both talked about drafting Rackley in 2011. That would allow us to move Kemo to RG...and give us the alletic pulling guard that we need at LG. I like the idea of Kemo and Colon on the same side of the ball.

[Count Steeler]

So Ben and Bruce have figured out what ails the Oline in the Red zzzzone? Or is this an eye opener to some that Bruce does not call the best game possible? We can blame the Oline to a point. However, Arians play selection does not get an A in my book. Hopefully we see the execution on offense we need this week, and we put away the JETS. If we score early on them and often, they will fold up. If we let them stay in the game, it will be another nail biter.

[Chidi29]

Great post....You and I have both talked about drafting Rackley in 2011. That would allow us to move Kemo to RG...and give us the alletic pulling guard that we need at LG. I like the idea of Kemo and Colon on the same side of the ball.

That would be huge for us. Teams know that if we're going to pull, it'll be using Kemo. It's an effective play, but one teams know will be happening all game long. We've tried to pull our RG before but it never works.

I'm going to watch the first half of the Villanova game before I say anything final, but Ijalana looked strong yet again in the second half last night. The only issue with him is a sloppy kickslide as you've pointed out. Put him at guard and he's going to play to his strengths all game long.

Honestly, if we can fix the RG situation, the line won't be bad next year (assuming Starks and Colon are the tackles).

[Chidi29]

So Ben and Bruce have figured out what ails the Oline in the Red zzzzone? Or is this an eye opener to some that Bruce does not call the best game possible? We can blame the Oline to a point. However, Arians play selection does not get an A in my book. Hopefully we see the execution on offense we need this week, and we put away the JETS. If we score early on them and often, they will fold up. If we let them stay in the game, it will be another nail biter.

Where did anyone on here give Arians an "A" for the season?

I think everyone, even the guys that are fine with Arians as the OC, realize he doesn't call perfect games.

Of course, you said it best. "Hopefully we see the execution..."