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View Full Version : What's the fascination with Mitt Romney?



GoSlash27
11-14-2010, 09:14 AM
He's whuppin' ass in the Presidential elimination poll, and I have no idea what anyone sees in him. Is it his transparently phony "presidential" act? It can't be his track record as governor in Massachusetts or his "conservative" convictions, so what gives?

JonM229
11-14-2010, 09:47 AM
It must be the Mormon conspiracy

Borski
11-14-2010, 10:20 AM
I liked him from the last election. He seemed to have the best economic plan and knows how to manage a budget after bring several companies out of bankruptcy. I really don't know why people keep bringing up his religion, I don't believe in the Mormon faith, but last I heard we have freedom of religion in America. Same reason I think other conservatives argument that "Obama is Muslim!?!?!" is stupid. I have plenty other reasons to disagree with Obama's policy, I could care less if he is Muslim or not (Which I don't think he is.)

JonM229
11-14-2010, 10:25 AM
I wasn't being serious about him being a Mormon. As a liberal, I would actually prefer Romney over the other candidates for the same reasons you stated.

GBMelBlount
11-14-2010, 10:28 AM
He's whuppin' ass in the Presidential elimination poll, and I have no idea what anyone sees in him. Is it his transparently phony "presidential" act? It can't be his track record as governor in Massachusetts or his "conservative" convictions, so what gives?




Upon entering office (governor), Romney faced a projected $3 billion deficit, but a previously enacted $1.3 billion capital gains tax increase and $500 million in unanticipated federal grants decreased the deficit to $1.2 billion.[80] Through a combination of spending cuts, increased fees, and removal of corporate tax loopholes, by 2006 the state had a $700 million surplus and was able to cut taxes.[81][82]

In 2010, Romney opposed the health care legislation signed by President Barack Obama. He said "The act should be repealed. That campaign begins today."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney



So what are YOUR primary problems with Romney Slash?

Wallace108
11-14-2010, 10:54 AM
In 2010, Romney opposed the health care legislation signed by President Barack Obama. He said "The act should be repealed. That campaign begins today."
But yet he had no problem implementing similar health care in Massachusetts and even defended it while criticizing Obama.

That's my problem with Romney. He's a used-car salesman. He's going to say whatever he has to say and do whatever he has to do to make the sale.

(Sorry if I offended any used-car salesmen by comparing them to Romney).

Borski
11-14-2010, 11:12 AM
His plan wasn't the same as Obama's I would be fine with some form of healthcare reform, but the manner in which they passed Obamacare they didn't have time to throughly look though it.

GBMelBlount
11-14-2010, 11:22 AM
But yet he had no problem implementing similar health care in Massachusetts and even defended it while criticizing Obama.

That's my problem with Romney. He's a used-car salesman. He's going to say whatever he has to say and do whatever he has to do to make the sale.

(Sorry if I offended any used-car salesmen by comparing them to Romney).

If Romney admits to the failures of the health care in Massachusetts he is OK in my book and having been directly involved in the implementation he probably understands the complex mess in health better than anyone else...

Have you looked at his current stance on health care reform?

If you enjoy making snide broadbrush remarks about Romney instead of intelligently discussing and debating the topic, then why don't you pony up your candidate so that I too can make snide and narrow minded slanderous remarks about them based on myopic observations?

Just sayin....:drink:

Wallace108
11-14-2010, 12:40 PM
If Romney admits to the failures of the health care in Massachusetts he is OK in my book
He still defends the Massachusetts reform while slamming Obamacare. He says the two are as different as night and say. But let's look at his original proposal ...


Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney re-ignited that debate last month when he announced a plan to expand health coverage to all the state's residents, with a caveat that those who don't buy coverage could face a penalty.

Once the programs were in place, individual who did not get insurance from their jobs or buy it through one of the programs could lose their personal tax exemption of $3,300 — worth about $175 for an average taxpayer — face withholding of their income tax refund, or if they get medical care, their wages could be garnished for payment.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2005-07-04-health-insurance-usat_x.htm

Does any of that sound familiar?


Have you looked at his current stance on health care reform?
I haven't heard anything lately, but the last I heard he was still defending his reform and slamming Obama's.


If you enjoy making snide broadbrush remarks about Romney instead of intelligently discussing and debating the topic, then why don't you pony up your candidate so that I too can make snide and narrow minded slanderous remarks about them based on myopic observations?
Nothing I said was a "slanderous remark" or a "myopic observation." All of his hypocrisy and flip-flops are well-documented.

I'm FAR from the only conservative who has criticized Romney for being a hypocrite on the health-care issue. And when he ran against Kennedy for the Senate in 1994, Romney claimed he supported abortion rights. He reiterated the same support later. Then when he ran for president, he was suddenly a pro-life candidate.

He has a long history of flip-flopping on the major issues. It seems to me Romney wasn't much of a conservative until he decided to run for president. Like I said, he reminds me of the stereotypical used-car salesman, telling the "buyer" whatever they want to hear so he can make the "sale." That's my observation and opinion and I won't apologize for it.

As far as offering up my own candidate for criticism, I don't have one right now. I can find faults with all the major candidates ... but this happened to be a thread about Romney.

GBMelBlount
11-14-2010, 01:07 PM
Nothing I said was a "slanderous remark" or a "myopic observation." All of his hypocrisy and flip-flops are well-documented.

As far as offering up my own candidate for criticism, I don't have one right now. I can find faults with all the major candidates ... but this happened to be a thread about Romney.

When you come out of the closet with who you support I will gladly pick a topic or two, bash the hell out of them and call them names and also defend it as "intelligent debate". fair enough?

GoSlash27
11-14-2010, 01:08 PM
So what are YOUR primary problems with Romney Slash?

Mel,
My primary problems are two-fold:
#1 He's about the most insincere, obviously scripted politician I've ever met (and living in Iowa means I get to meet them all).
#2 He's been completely devoid of any core principles for as long as he's been in politics.

Maybe that's what it takes to win, but I'm not so much interested in voicing my objections as I am in understanding what it is that others see in him. Someone mentioned his fiscal record as a plus up-stream. I personally view it as a huge negative (look at what happened to the deficit under his watch), but to be fair he was the governor of one of the most liberal states in the union, so that's not all his fault.

*edit* and yeah, his plan was pretty much identical to ObamaCare. In fact, Obama actually based his plan off of RomneyCare. Which I don't personally hold against him. That was Constitutional at the State level, but doesn't fly at the Federal level.

GBMelBlount
11-14-2010, 01:14 PM
Mel,
My primary problems are two-fold:
#1 He's about the most insincere, obviously scripted politician I've ever met (and living in Iowa means I get to meet them all).
#2 He's been completely devoid of any core principles for as long as he's been in politics.

Maybe that's what it takes to win, but I'm not so much interested in voicing my objections as I am in understanding what it is that others see in him. Someone mentioned his fiscal record as a plus up-stream. I personally view it as a huge negative (look at what happened to the deficit under his watch), but to be fair he was the governor of one of the most liberal states in the union, so that's not all his fault.

I understand what you are saying slash and I respect your opinion ESPECIALLY the way you just said it. For me, taking it issue by issue I agree with his positions on virtually everything.

I DO realize there are inconsistencies, but for me, putting it in the overall context of all of his positions on all of the issues and in the context of the other candidates, I like him.

When things heat up closer to the primaries, he will definitely have some explaining to do and the healthcare debacle will likely be his downfall, I realize that, so we will see what happens when the dust settles....and we can be assured the media will not let him off the hook.

...and even though you feel he is slick, I personally don't feel he is any more prone to changing positions for political expediency than most other candidates...I am not saying I am right, just that this is MY opinion.

So many politicians are career politicians where Romney also has some incredible accomplishments both academically and in the business world in addition to his political experience.

Borski
11-14-2010, 01:26 PM
When you come out of the closet with who you support I will gladly pick a topic or two, bash the hell out of them and call them names and also defend it as "intelligent debate". fair enough?

Agreed, you can isolate anything from any candidate and bash it. No candidate is perfect, but in my opinion, Mitt is the Best choice for me. Obviously Slash and Wallace don't agree and thats why we vote.

Wallace108
11-14-2010, 01:34 PM
When you come out of the closet with who you support I will gladly pick a topic or two, bash the hell out of them and call them names and also defend it as "intelligent debate". fair enough?

So let me get this straight ... the best way for you to defend your candidate is to attack mine?
I can't have an "intelligent debate" about Romney until I announce my "favorite" candidate? Is that an unwritten rule of debate?
The reason I don't support anyone yet is because I'm not crazy about any of the names out there.
And I don't appreciate your "intelligent debate" comment. I'm not sure I understand your animosity toward me. But whatever.

Here's what I'm talking about regarding Romney.


NORTH CONWAY, N.H. (AP) — Taking aim at a rallying John McCain, New Hampshire front-runner Mitt Romney said Saturday that his GOP presidential rival had failed "Reagan 101" by twice opposing President Bush's tax cuts.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-12-23-romney-mccain_N.htm

So Romney was a huge supporter of Bush's tax cuts?


WASHINGTON - Governor Mitt Romney refused yesterday to endorse tax cuts at the heart of President Bush's economic program, but he told members of the state's congressional delegation during a private meeting he also would not oppose the cuts because he has to maintain "a solid relationship" with the White House.
http://online.logcabin.org/romney-weighs-in-carefully.html

So in 2003 he wouldn't endorse the cuts, but he also wouldn't oppose them because he didn't want to lose favor with Bush. Then in 2007 he criticized McCain for opposing the cuts. I disagree with McCain's stance, but at least he TOOK a stance. For me, character is the most important consideration when choosing a candidate. Romney says what he has to in order to win political favor. That's a character issue.

So I'm not picking an issue or two and bashing Romney. He has been a hypocrite or has flip-flopped on health care, abortion, tax cuts, gun rights, gay rights, and other issues. Quite frankly, I'm not sure if I agree with him on anything because I'm never sure where he stands on an issue. His positions depend on the day of the week, or the office he's running for.

Now, rather than attacking me, why don't you come down off your high horse and defend Romney? That's the real purpose of this thread. :drink:

GBMelBlount
11-14-2010, 02:25 PM
So let me get this straight ... the best way for you to defend your candidate is to attack mine?



Wow, putting words in my mouth....not a great debate tactic imo.

I conceded the point to slash because he was decent about it and he toned it down out of respect. Pretty simple....thank you Slash...

If you had broached your concerns in the spirit of initiating intelligent discussion as opposed to casting undue dispersions, we would not be going back and forth on this. That's all.

I am pointing out that name calling is not productive and you defended it so I am simply saying turnabout is fair play.

Do you not agree?

Wallace108
11-14-2010, 02:41 PM
Wow, putting words in my mouth....great debate tactic.
I didn't put words in your mouth. And there is no debate. You still haven't tried to refute a single point I've made.


I conceded the point to slash because he was decent about it and toned it down out of respect.
If you want to talk about respect, take a look at some of the comments you made toward me. I kept my criticism aimed strictly at Romney. Rather than attacking my arguments, you attacked me. The reason I reacted differently than Slash did is because of the different way in which you responded to us. Go back and re-read your first response to both of us ...


I am pointing that name calling is not productive and you defended it so I am simply saying turnabout is fair play.
I agree that name calling isn't productive if that's all you do is call someone a name without supporting it ... that's why I backed it up with evidence to support it. :noidea:


Do you have a problem with that?
No, what I have a problem with is you getting defensive and lashing out at me and trying to insult me.

Wallace108
11-14-2010, 04:10 PM
Mel, I see you edited your last post after I responded, so let me address this from your edit:


If you had broached your concerns in the spirit of initiating intelligent discussion as opposed to casting undue dispersions, we would not be going back and forth on this. That's all.

I'm not sure how my first post was all that different than Slash's first post.

But here was your response to Slash:

So what are YOUR primary problems with Romney Slash?

And here was your response to me:

If you enjoy making snide broadbrush remarks about Romney instead of intelligently discussing and debating the topic, then why don't you pony up your candidate so that I too can make snide and narrow minded slanderous remarks about them based on myopic observations?

And you followed up with this:

When you come out of the closet with who you support I will gladly pick a topic or two, bash the hell out of them and call them names and also defend it as "intelligent debate". fair enough?

You then credit Slash for being "decent" about it and "toning it down out of respect."

Do you see why I responded differently than the way Slash did?

In my first post, I called Romney a used-car salesman saying whatever people wanted to hear so they would vote for him. I gave the example of how he slammed Obamacare even though he created a very similar system in Massachusetts. So I didn't just call him a name ... I gave a reason for feeling the way I do about him.

If you disagree with my views on Romney, fine ... that's what debates are for. But don't accuse me of not being able to debate intelligently and having myopic observations, and then criticize me for not responding to you as respectfully as Slash did.

Respect is a two-way street, my friend. Regardless of what I said about Romney, I didn't say anything negative about you for liking Romney or how you debate.

GoSlash27
11-14-2010, 04:52 PM
Borski,
He's obviously not *my* favorite candidate, but I am interested in hearing why he's your favorite candidate. Exactly which of his positions do you agree with? And what makes you think *he* actually believes those things?

GoSlash27
11-14-2010, 04:58 PM
Wallace,
FWIW I agree with your assessment, but I think the difference is I'm asking why they like him instead of explaining why I don't.

Borski
11-14-2010, 05:04 PM
Borski,
He's obviously not *my* favorite candidate, but I am interested in hearing why he's your favorite candidate. Exactly which of his positions do you agree with? And what makes you think *he* actually believes those things?

I believe his economic plan is the best that I had heard of out of all the candidates the last election, and he has a proven record balancing a budget by bringing several companies out of bankruptcy. That was my strongest issue last election and so far is still my strongest issue.

Wallace108
11-14-2010, 05:25 PM
Wallace,
FWIW I agree with your assessment, but I think the difference is I'm asking why they like him instead of explaining why I don't.

I understand that was the purpose of the thread. By criticizing Romney, I was actually going off topic. I'll see my way out. :drink:

HometownGal
11-14-2010, 05:51 PM
That's my problem with Romney. He's a used-car salesman. He's going to say whatever he has to say and do whatever he has to do to make the sale.



Name me one politician who doesn't do exactly the same thing. We have living proof of one of the best used-car salesmen currently in the Oval Office. :doh:

Out of all of the GOP and Independent possibilities, I feel Romney would do the best job and the least amount of bullshitting (though I have no doubt he'd throw some bullshit in there as they all do to get elected).

GBMelBlount
11-14-2010, 05:52 PM
I'm not sure how my first post was all that different than Slash's first post.



The difference is when I read Slash's post I was only a LITTLE irritated and then when I read your post I was REALLY irritated. :chuckle:

Wife & I have had dinner with Preacher and his wife a few times and I STILL go after him when he disses Romney! lol

Give me a few months....I'll be fine. :alcohol:

Wallace108
11-14-2010, 06:03 PM
Name me one politician who doesn't do exactly the same thing. We have living proof of one of the best used-car salesmen currently in the Oval Office. :doh:

Out of all of the GOP and Independent possibilities, I feel Romney would do the best job and the least amount of bullshitting (though I have no doubt he'd throw some bullshit in there as they all do to get elected).

OK, I'm going to go against my better judgment and respond. :chuckle:
Anyone who has read my political posts knows I'm a conservative and dislike liberal philosophies and policies. But that doesn't mean I'm a big fan of the Republicans who are out there. Romney, Palin, Gingrich ... they're ALL politicians. Many of them are career politicians. I'm sick and tired of the politicians. I'm ready for someone who is willing to serve OUR interests, and not his or her own.

If you, Mel, or anyone else thinks Romney is that guy, then why do you all feel that way? That's what Slash was trying to get at.

Wallace108
11-14-2010, 06:06 PM
The difference is when I read Slash's post I was only a LITTLE irritated and then when I read your post I was REALLY irritated. :chuckle:

Wife & I have had dinner with Preacher and his wife a few times and I STILL go after him when he disses Romney! lol

Give me a few months....I'll be fine. :alcohol:

It's all good, Mel. We all have our issues and people we're passionate about. :drink:

GoSlash27
11-14-2010, 06:16 PM
The difference is when I read Slash's post I was only a LITTLE irritated and then when I read your post I was REALLY irritated. :chuckle:

Wife & I have had dinner with Preacher and his wife a few times and I STILL go after him when he disses Romney! lol

Give me a few months....I'll be fine. :alcohol:

Hey, look! I'm improving :D

So... I basically agree with what Wallace is saying here:

I'm sick and tired of the politicians. I'm ready for someone who is willing to serve OUR interests, and not his or her own.

If you, Mel, or anyone else thinks Romney is that guy, then why do you all feel that way? That's what Slash was trying to get at.
^ That is, pretty much, what I'm trying to get at. If you truly believe that all politicians are the same (will tell you whatever you want to hear and then betray you), what makes you think Mitt (of all people) is any different?

X-Terminator
11-15-2010, 01:12 AM
The fact that Romney gave us the blueprint for Obamacare is why I would never vote for him. So I don't understand the fascination either. He's only opposing it now in order to pander for conservative votes after the Republicans rolled into power in the House, and it's as transparent as a pane of glass.

X-Terminator
11-15-2010, 01:27 AM
Romney, Palin, Gingrich

Sheesh, if any of those 3 win the nomination, I might just abstain from voting in 2012. :doh: I can't think of 3 worse candidates.

7SteelGal43
11-15-2010, 12:19 PM
Romney, Palin, Gingrich ... they're ALL politicians.


Not ALL, Wally....the candidate I'm pulling for is a true Washington outsider. Someone who believes in the Constitution. Someone who holds the same values, morals, principals and vision of America as I do. A typical American who's still in touch with the life of the average American. The kind of person I think of when I hear people say "I don't want another career politician but someone who can relate to me, just one of us, ya know?". Someone whom I see as just like me. Someone who the MSM and the left claims not to be afraid of yet puts so much money, time and effort into destroying. Painting as laughable, stupid, un-electable, not to be taken seriously. The MSM doth protest too much, methinks.

That's why as of now, I'm pulling for...
















...PALIN 2012

The WH
11-15-2010, 01:38 PM
Palin 2012? Are you kidding me? Even if she somehow managed to win the candidacy the liberal media would roll out Tina Fey and BURY her like they did in 08. It's your god given right to pull for her, but, your just as well off to pull for Jerry The King Lawler.

Wallace108
11-15-2010, 01:39 PM
Not ALL, Wally....the candidate I'm pulling for is a true Washington outsider. Someone who believes in the Constitution. Someone who holds the same values, morals, principals and vision of America as I do. A typical American who's still in touch with the life of the average American. The kind of person I think of when I hear people say "I don't want another career politician but someone who can relate to me, just one of us, ya know?". Someone whom I see as just like me. Someone who the MSM and the left claims not to be afraid of yet puts so much money, time and effort into destroying. Painting as laughable, stupid, un-electable, not to be taken seriously. The MSM doth protest too much, methinks.

That's why as of now, I'm pulling for...

...PALIN 2012

I'm not ready to say she isn't a typical politician just yet, but I have to agree that the mainstream media has gone overboard in its negative portrayal of Palin. They want you to think she's a dimwit, but she's really not. They did the same thing with Bush and Quayle. Notice a pattern here? Obama has made numerous gaffes, yet he's still regarded as the smartest guy in America. A Republican makes a few gaffes and he or she is portrayed as an idiot.

Not only are liberals and the mainstream media against Palin, but so too is the Republican establishment. She's not one of the Good Ol' Boys, and she's helping to tear down the old guard ... so they're more than happy to pile on to her negative portrayal. Because of the way she's been portrayed, there are a LOT of Republicans who don't like her and won't vote for her. So I'm not sure she can win the nomination, much less a general election. And God help us if she decides to make some kind of third-party bid.

Putting aside whether or not I think she can win ... for me, personally, the jury is still out on her. There are things I like about her and things I don't like (I won't get into all that now). I'll watch her over the next year and see what she does. One thing I'd like to see her do, if she does plan on running, is to drop all pretenses and make it known that she is. I hate how potential candidates lie and refuse to acknowledge that they're going to run all the while doing things that make it quite clear that they are. If I can't trust someone to give an honest answer to something so simple as to whether or not they're going to run, how can I trust them to give an honest answer to anything?

7SteelGal43
11-15-2010, 02:36 PM
Palin 2012? Are you kidding me? Even if she somehow managed to win the candidacy the liberal media would roll out Tina Fey and BURY her like they did in 08. It's your god given right to pull for her, but, your just as well off to pull for Jerry The King Lawler.



yeah, um, I'm not even close to kidding, WH. She's my gal. I'm not gonna let the MSM or leftnutz tell me what I should think of Palin. In fact, the more they go after her, the more I'm convinced she's doing something right. God help me if I pick my candidate based what may come from SNL alum. And I'm sure not gonna let pop culture tell me what to think or who to support.

7SteelGal43
11-15-2010, 03:13 PM
Wally, if she's who I think she is, I'd be willing to overlook the avoidance of a clear answer or the "I won't/I might/I will run". Who knows why she's non-committal at this moment. If she's who I think she is, she is a Presidential candidate that can complete the take down of the business as usual GOP establishment that has aided and abetted the liberal agenda for far too long. What good does it do the GOP to win with a RINO candidate ? I'd rather lose with a true Conservative candidate who got their message out and put the GOP establishment on notice. I have a feeling we'll have the house AND senate after the 2012 election. They can keep Obama in check.

The WH
11-15-2010, 03:41 PM
yeah, um, I'm not even close to kidding, WH. She's my gal. I'm not gonna let the MSM or leftnutz tell me what I should think of Palin. In fact, the more they go after her, the more I'm convinced she's doing something right. God help me if I pick my candidate based what may come from SNL alum. And I'm sure not gonna let pop culture tell me what to think or who to support.
I´m not saying you should. Supporting Palin is fine, but if the MSM does to Palin in 2012 what they did in 2008, what you or I think she's doing right won't matter. Because people like this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI
DO choose their candidates based off of SNL.


BTW, If Palin *Somehow* gets the nod from the Repub's and has a 2 or 3 stellar debates (the kind where questions get answered and not danced around) I will personally fly back to the states, and vote for her.

If Palin, however, runs 3rd party, Obama gets a second term. write it down.

7SteelGal43
11-15-2010, 06:09 PM
I´m not saying you should. Supporting Palin is fine, but if the MSM does to Palin in 2012 what they did in 2008, what you or I think she's doing right won't matter. Because people like this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI
DO choose their candidates based off of SNL.


BTW, If Palin *Somehow* gets the nod from the Repub's and has a 2 or 3 stellar debates (the kind where questions get answered and not danced around) I will personally fly back to the states, and vote for her.

If Palin, however, runs 3rd party, Obama gets a second term. write it down.


I honestly get the feeling that as gung-ho tea party and anti-GOP establishment as she is, she's smart enough not to screw any chance we have by runnin 3rd party.

Craic
11-15-2010, 07:13 PM
I understand what you are saying slash and I respect your opinion ESPECIALLY the way you just said it. For me, taking it issue by issue I agree with his positions on virtually everything.

I DO realize there are inconsistencies, but for me, putting it in the overall context of all of his positions on all of the issues and in the context of the other candidates, I like him.

When things heat up closer to the primaries, he will definitely have some explaining to do and the healthcare debacle will likely be his downfall, I realize that, so we will see what happens when the dust settles....and we can be assured the media will not let him off the hook.

...and even though you feel he is slick, I personally don't feel he is any more prone to changing positions for political expediency than most other candidates...I am not saying I am right, just that this is MY opinion.

So many politicians are career politicians where Romney also has some incredible accomplishments both academically and in the business world in addition to his political experience.

My problem with Romney isn't the positions he holds now, but the ones he held just a few years ago- and decided to jettison when he realized that he wouldn't win the primaries running on that platform.

For Instance, in 2002 during his elections, he was completely on the side of abortion rights, even to the point saying this in his debate with O'Brien, "Let me make this very clear: I will preserve and protect a woman's right to choose." Then, in 2004, just six years ago, after his election, and 3 years before his bid for the presidency he changed his view to pro-life.

Matter of fact, almost all his movements to the right happened within 3 years of the 2008 elections. Here is an interesting link from teh Log Cabin Republicans-which is documented with links to the actual articles quoting him. http://online.logcabin.org/mitt-romneys-flip-flops.html

I do not trust anyone that cannot stand on their principles, but will instead move to the left or the right for political reasons. It is one of the reasons I actually admire George W. Bush, because he held unpopular positions within the GOP (Border security, etc.) and didn't waver.

So that, in a nutshell is the entire reason why I will not and cannot vote for him. I don't know who I will vote for yet, as I don't know everyone that will run. But I do know at least one I will not vote for. Heck, at this point, I am not even sure I am voting GOP anymore. I for DANG sure do not consider myself a republican anymore. The party is way to much into playing politics and grabbing power-and could care less about the actual principles they should be upholding IMO--and yes, just like the democrats.

GBMelBlount
11-15-2010, 09:22 PM
My problem with Romney isn't the positions he holds now, but the ones he held just a few years ago- and decided to jettison when he realized that he wouldn't win the primaries running on that platform.



You are beating a dead horse. Does it make you feel better to pile on because you have nothing better to offer?

You have just reinforced my point.

All I see is a bunch of stone throwing and and pot shots from the shadows. THIS is the crap I hate Preacher and you are flat dab in the middle of it.

Offer a candidate, solution or SOMETHING constructive to this thread, PLEASE?

This is getting flat out ridiculous.

Borski
11-15-2010, 09:46 PM
You are beating a dead horse. Does it make you feel better to pile on because you have nothing better to offer?

You have just reinforced my point.

All I see is a bunch of stone throwing and and pot shots from the shadows. THIS is the crap I hate Preacher and you are flat dab in the middle of it.

Offer a candidate, solution or SOMETHING constructive to this thread, PLEASE?

This is getting flat out ridiculous.

I dislike thouse former opinions too, but unlike most "Flipflopers" He didn't deny his former stance and he explained what changed his view, and I appreciate that.

And I am very strong Pro-Life, my family attends the March for Life every year, I haven't been able to attend the past couple years because of college but hopefully I can go again this year.

Borski
11-15-2010, 09:50 PM
I honestly get the feeling that as gung-ho tea party and anti-GOP establishment as she is, she's smart enough not to screw any chance we have by runnin 3rd party.

Off topic, but I hope the Tea Party does split off and become a legit 3rd party. the 2 Party System is corrupt and adding a 3rd party would bring better balance overall. In fact I might be more inclined to vote for her if she did run on a separate "Tea Party" ticket, because that would mean to me she is really serious about this "shaking up the system"

X-Terminator
11-15-2010, 09:53 PM
You are beating a dead horse. Does it make you feel better to pile on because you have nothing better to offer?

You have just reinforced my point.

All I see is a bunch of stone throwing and and pot shots from the shadows. THIS is the crap I hate Preacher and you are flat dab in the middle of it.

Offer a candidate, solution or SOMETHING constructive to this thread, PLEASE?

This is getting flat out ridiculous.

Dude, what is your problem? Whether you think their OPINIONS are "ridiculous" or not, they are still entitled to them. Not everyone has to like or support Romney, and their reasons for doing so are just as valid as your reasons for supporting him.

Lighten up.

GBMelBlount
11-15-2010, 10:07 PM
Dude, what is your problem? Whether you think their OPINIONS are "ridiculous" or not, they are still entitled to them. Not everyone has to like or support Romney, and their reasons for doing so are just as valid as your reasons for supporting him.

Lighten up.

dude. This is simply MY opinion. Lighten up.

It's funny how you sarcastically rail against people when they pile on in a Steeler thread redundantly and now you have an issue with me pointing out the EXACT same thing?

What gives?

Craic
11-15-2010, 10:15 PM
You are beating a dead horse. Does it make you feel better to pile on because you have nothing better to offer?

You have just reinforced my point.

All I see is a bunch of stone throwing and and pot shots from the shadows. THIS is the crap I hate Preacher and you are flat dab in the middle of it.

Offer a candidate, solution or SOMETHING constructive to this thread, PLEASE?

This is getting flat out ridiculous.
GB...

I like you a lot... but you really need to settle down. First, it is 2 years before the elections, a full year before the primary season begins to take shape. Second, we have no clue who will or will not be a part of the race. Third, unless I run as a candidate, I really don't have anything to offer to the political discussion. However, what I DO have to offer to this thread, is sources as to why I will not vote for one person in particular, which have not yet been provided, at least not in the last 25 or so posts. Thus, I have added something constructive to the thread, documented proof as to the foundation for my reasoning.

However, to accuse me of "Stone throwing" and "pot shots from the shadows..." Just shows me that there is no need to have this discussion with you. Mit's your man. Fine. I really could give a damn. My opinion is that I can't trust the guy. Period. End of story. Go look at my links to find out why. I could care less if you agree or disagree, but I simply refuse to put another liberal in Conservative clothing in office... and could care less to continue this discussion if you are going to keep responding this way.

:wave:

GBMelBlount
11-15-2010, 10:18 PM
GB...

Mit's your man. Fine. I really could give a damn.
:wave:

Funny thing is he's NOT my first choice.

I just get disgusted when people rail against someone but don't offer better solutions.....ESPECIALLY when they are simply beating a dead horse.

Borski
11-15-2010, 10:31 PM
Funny thing is he's NOT my first choice.

I just get disgusted when people rail against someone but don't offer better solutions.....ESPECIALLY when they are simply beating a dead horse.

Out of curiosity, who is your first choice?

GBMelBlount
11-15-2010, 10:41 PM
Out of curiosity, who is your first choice?

Thank you Borski...

Probably Ron Paul....but I don't think he can get the traction.

I also like Palin but I think she will get decimated by the media, unfortunately.

If anybody else wants to constructively offer some other candidates for consideration, I'm ALL for it, let's discuss it, otherwise I think Romney is a great option...CONSIDERING the options.

X-Terminator
11-15-2010, 11:10 PM
dude. This is simply MY opinion. Lighten up.

It's funny how you sarcastically rail against people when they pile on in a Steeler thread redundantly and now you have an issue with me pointing out the EXACT same thing?

What gives?

One small difference. This is not "piling on." This is people stating the reasons why they don't like a candidate, and giving LEGITIMATE reasons for doing so. I stated my reasons why I won't vote for Romney, which is a very valid one. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

Settle down. There's no need to get your back up just because someone may not like "your guy."

Craic
11-15-2010, 11:19 PM
(1) I conceded the point to slash because he was decent about it and he toned it down out of respect. Pretty simple....thank you Slash...

If you had broached (2) your concerns in the spirit of initiating intelligent discussion as opposed to (3) casting undue dispersions, we would not be going back and forth on this. That's all.

I am pointing out that name calling is not productive and you defended it so I am simply saying turnabout is fair play.

Do you not agree?

So let's see where I fall on your scale of (1) decent tone (2) intelligent discussion and (3) not casting undue dispersions; shall we?


My problem with Romney isn't the positions he holds now, but the ones he held just a few years ago- and decided to jettison when he realized that he wouldn't win the primaries running on that platform.

(2) [This is argumentation] For Instance, in 2002 during his elections, he was completely on the side of abortion rights, even to the point saying this in his debate with O'Brien, (2b) [This is sourcing my reasons] "Let me make this very clear: I will preserve and protect a woman's right to choose." Then, in 2004, just six years ago, after his election, and 3 years before his bid for the presidency he changed his view to pro-life.

(2c) [This is adding a second argument in support of the first argument] Matter of fact, almost all his movements to the right happened within 3 years of the 2008 elections. [2d] [this is a second sourcing for the argument] Here is an interesting link from the Log Cabin Republicans-which is documented with links to the actual articles quoting him. http://online.logcabin.org/mitt-romneys-flip-flops.html

(3) [Now let's see if this is casting--Undue dispersions] I do not trust anyone that cannot stand on their principles, but will instead move to the left or the right for political reasons. [seems to me, that I just proved this point in what you call intellectual argument. So, my guess is that this is not, "Undue dispersions"] It is one of the reasons I actually admire George W. Bush, because he held unpopular positions within the GOP (Border security, etc.) and didn't waver.

So that, in a nutshell is the entire reason why I will not and cannot vote for him. I don't know who I will vote for yet, as I don't know everyone that will run. But I do know at least one I will not vote for. Heck, at this point, I am not even sure I am voting GOP anymore. I for DANG sure do not consider myself a republican anymore. The party is way to much into playing politics and grabbing power-and could care less about the actual principles they should be upholding IMO--and yes, just like the democrats.

Now, shall we talk about tone and respect? Notice the tone of my first post. Now, let's take a look at yours in comparison to what I have quoted in your first post.


You are beating a dead horse. (1) Does it make you feel better to pile on because you have nothing better to offer?

You have just reinforced my point.

All I see is a bunch of (1b) (when I took the time to source my arguments... this is quite presumptuous, since I have researched my position, instead of throwing stones)... stone throwing and and pot shots from the shadows. THIS is the crap I hate Preacher and you are flat dab in the middle of it.

Offer a candidate, solution (1c) [Tone?] or SOMETHING constructive to this thread, PLEASE?

(1d) This is getting flat out ridiculous.

So, according to your post to Wallace, It is tone, and "broaching my concerns instead of casting undue dispersions." Yet... I see quite lack of the former in your post, and quite a bit of the latter towards me, since I SOURCED everything...

Now, let's talked about this, nice, Tone neutral, respectful post shall we?


I just get disgusted when people rail against someone but don't offer better solutions.....ESPECIALLY when they are simply beating a dead horse.
Disgusted? It's really too bad you get disgusted at other people's opinions two years before they matter. Better solutions? Once again, A YEAR BEFORE WE EVEN KNOW WHO IS TRULY IN THE RUNNING. Beating a dead horse? Some have called him a used car salesman. Some have talked about Obamacare vs. Romney care. One has mentioned taxes. However, I found ABSOLUTELY NO POST CONCERNING his quick, intentional drift to the right, the dates it happened, and way in which it can be perceived.

Thus, I can only conclude one of two things. Either you ou just wanted a fight, or, because my tone was fine and my statements were backed up by fact you were really being honest with Wallace, because you really do care about Romney getting on the ticket.

Whatever. But don't talk about tone, respect, and intelligent discussion when you are refusing to offer up any of the three.

GBMelBlount
11-15-2010, 11:24 PM
One small difference. This is not "piling on." This is people stating the reasons why they don't like a candidate, and giving LEGITIMATE reasons for doing so. I stated my reasons why I won't vote for Romney, which is a very valid one. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

Settle down. There's no need to get your back up just because someone may not like "your guy."

I just prefer constructive solutions that's all....do YOU have any constructive or positive ideas?....

X-Terminator
11-15-2010, 11:27 PM
I just prefer constructive solutions that's all....do YOU have any constructive or positive ideas?....

Well, since you asked nicely...how about Marco Rubio from Florida? Listening to some of his speeches, especially his victory speech, I think this guy has some potential.

GBMelBlount
11-15-2010, 11:31 PM
=Preacher;91618]

So, according to your post to Wallace, It is tone, and "broaching my concerns instead of casting undue dispersions."

I was referring to the "used car salesman comment"

I made amends with Wallace after that. but I am sure you know that...unless your intent now is is simply to fight and argue.

I have now simply asked for constructive input....if you, as a "preacher" want to continue down this road of negativity and fighting then I am fine with that.

GBMelBlount
11-15-2010, 11:36 PM
Well, since you asked nicely...how about Marco Rubio from Florida? Listening to some of his speeches, especially his victory speech, I think this guy has some potential.

First, if I asked nicely, I apologize, that was not my intent. :chuckle:

But seriously, I have not had time to follow potential candidates and would LOVE to know how he (or anybody) stacks up on the issues. If there is somebody better I HONESTLY want to know. I LOVE intelligent disccussion and facts and am open to hearing and learning about ANY candidate.

I HONESTLY want to learn if their is a better candidate.

Craic
11-15-2010, 11:37 PM
I was referring to the "used car salesman comment"

I made amends with Wallace after that. but I am sure you know that...unless your intent now is is simply to fight and argue.

I have now simply asked for constructive input....if you, as a "preacher" want to continue down this road of negativity and fighting then I am fine with that.

Excuse me?

You start this entire exchange by lambasting me for nothing more than giving my opinion backed with sources... and then turn it around that I AM the one...and as a PREACHER...

May I suggest we take this off the main board. Because nobody else needs to hear this. If you don't care, then fine. BUt frankly, I am quite astonished.

Wallace108
11-15-2010, 11:41 PM
what I DO have to offer to this thread, is sources as to why I will not vote for one person in particular, which have not yet been provided, at least not in the last 25 or so posts.


Some have called him a used car salesman. Some have talked about Obamacare vs. Romney care. One has mentioned taxes. However, I found ABSOLUTELY NO POST CONCERNING his quick, intentional drift to the right, the dates it happened, and way in which it can be perceived.

Although I didn't given dates, I made several posts about his "quick, intentional drift to the right." I didn't just call him a used-car salesman ... I backed it up with some of the same support you offered:


And when he ran against Kennedy for the Senate in 1994, Romney claimed he supported abortion rights. He reiterated the same support later. Then when he ran for president, he was suddenly a pro-life candidate.

He has a long history of flip-flopping on the major issues. It seems to me Romney wasn't much of a conservative until he decided to run for president.


So in 2003 he wouldn't endorse the cuts, but he also wouldn't oppose them because he didn't want to lose favor with Bush. Then in 2007 he criticized McCain for opposing the cuts. I disagree with McCain's stance, but at least he TOOK a stance. For me, character is the most important consideration when choosing a candidate. Romney says what he has to in order to win political favor. That's a character issue.

So I'm not picking an issue or two and bashing Romney. He has been a hypocrite or has flip-flopped on health care, abortion, tax cuts, gun rights, gay rights, and other issues. Quite frankly, I'm not sure if I agree with him on anything because I'm never sure where he stands on an issue. His positions depend on the day of the week, or the office he's running for.

GBMelBlount
11-15-2010, 11:41 PM
Excuse me?

You start this entire exchange by lambasting me for nothing more than giving my opinion backed with sources... and then turn it around that I AM the one...and as a PREACHER...

May I suggest we take this off the main board. Because nobody else needs to hear this. If you don't care, then fine. BUt frankly, I am quite astonished.

Preacher, I love you to pieces.

I COMPLETELY understand your points.....and I apologize for riling you....

We spent three hours together the last time we had dinner and I think you know how much I respect you ( and your lovely wife).

PLEASE, accept my apologies.

Wallace108
11-15-2010, 11:45 PM
If there is somebody better I HONESTLY want to know. I LOVE intelligent disccussion and facts and am open to hearing and learning about ANY candidate.

I HONESTLY want to learn if their is a better candidate.

Mel, I have to admit that I need to learn more about other candidates as well. But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about Romney, not who I, X-T, Preacher, or anyone else supports. If you want to start a general candidate thread so we can discuss all the candidates, I'm up for it. There's still a lot I need to learn.

X-Terminator
11-16-2010, 12:01 AM
First, if I asked nicely, I apologize, that was not my intent. :chuckle:

But seriously, I have not had time to follow potential candidates and would LOVE to know how he (or anybody) stacks up on the issues. If there is somebody better I HONESTLY want to know. I LOVE intelligent disccussion and facts and am open to hearing and learning about ANY candidate.

I HONESTLY want to learn if their is a better candidate.

http://www.marcorubio.com/marco-101/

No charge.

GBMelBlount
11-16-2010, 12:03 AM
You are right wallace.

I guess this thread just reminds me of political campaigns, that's all. Candidates no longer run on what they stand for but on bashing there opponents to a lower level in order to win. I hate the negativity.

I see Romney doing well and then he becomes the topic of a thread and gets beat up (even if the points are valid) when arguarble there are few better candidates imo.

It just irritates me because I would rather see somebody pimp their guy as to why they are worthy as opposed to simply pointing out the negatives of another.

Was I off topic...I guess so. Just frustrated, that's all.

Wallace108
11-16-2010, 12:27 AM
You are right wallace.

I guess this thread just reminds me of political campaigns, that's all. Candidates no longer run on what they stand for but on bashing there opponents to a lower level in order to win. I hate the negativity.

I see Romney doing well and then he becomes the topic of a thread and gets beat up (even if the points are valid) when arguarble there are few better candidates imo.

It just irritates me because I would rather see somebody pimp their guy as to why they are worthy as opposed to simply pointing out the negatives of another.

Was I off topic...I guess so. Just frustrated, that's all.

Understandable, my friend. People say the two things you shouldn't discuss are politics and religion. If that's the case, Preacher wouldn't be allowed to talk. :chuckle:

The whole idea of a debate is to present both sides of an argument. Preacher and I have given reasons why we don't support Romney. I'd love to know why you, Borski, HTG, and others DO support him. That's why Slash started this thread. I could come out and say that Ben is the greatest quarterback in NFL history. But it wouldn't be long before someone asks me to justify why I believe that (and for the record, I don't :lol:). So far, it seems that everyone who supports Romney is just saying that he's the best candidate out there. But why? What makes him the best candidate? Convince me. I'm an open-minded person. If you can convince me that I'm wrong, I'll change my view.

As far as all the other candidates, like I said, I'll be happy to discuss them in the appropriate thread. :drink:

Craic
11-16-2010, 02:03 AM
Although I didn't given dates, I made several posts about his "quick, intentional drift to the right." I didn't just call him a used-car salesman ... I backed it up with some of the same support you offered:

Ahhh.. So you have. I apologize. As I was looking through the thread, I somehow missed that.sorry.

Craic
11-16-2010, 02:07 AM
Preacher, I love you to pieces.

I COMPLETELY understand your points.....and I apologize for riling you....

We spent three hours together the last time we had dinner and I think you know how much I respect you ( and your lovely wife).

PLEASE, accept my apologies.

And mine... I went back and reread what I posted in response to you.... can you say "throwing gas on a fire?" :chuckle:

I feel the same way about you.... you jerk :heh: :wink02:

BTW, we're not able to come to Pittsburgh this year, maybe not for a couple years. But when we get back there, we are definitely on for dinner again. Wife and I went to Peppy's on the North Side just a few blocks from the stadium. Absolutely loved the feel of the place, actually more than the Strip District Peppy's. Maybe we'll do that next time!

Wallace108
11-16-2010, 02:09 AM
Ahhh.. So you have. I apologize. As I was looking through the thread, I somehow missed that.sorry.

No sweat, Preacher. You gave more detail and always say things much better than I can. I tend to ramble. :heh:

Craic
11-16-2010, 02:13 AM
No sweat, Preacher. You gave more detail and always say things much better than I can. I tend to ramble. :heh:

You obviously haven't heard me on a Sunday morning.

The WH
11-16-2010, 05:57 AM
Dear lord...I miss all the fun stuff not being in the same time zone as you all.

GoSlash27
11-16-2010, 06:31 AM
GBMel,
Pointing out Romney's faults is an important part of this discussion. It's not "piling on" or "negative campaigning", it's objective fact and it's at the very heart of this matter.
The question is "what's the fascination with Romney" and what we're trying to understand is "why do you support him in spite of (insert concern here)". We can't get to the bottom of it without pointing out his faults.

Also, I didn't start this thread with the intention of telling you (or anyone else) who I think you should like.

So back to the original point: Romney has changed his positions on everything. You may believe that he has a legitimate excuse for it, but that's beside the point. A lot of people here sense his untrustworthiness (they don't know the half of it!) and that's what's got the rest of us so confused. You can't say with any certainty what his plans, positions, or principles *are* because he keeps changing them to suit his needs.
So what does that leave that justifies your support?

GoSlash27
11-18-2010, 07:47 PM
And bump...


Name me one politician who doesn't do exactly the same thing. We have living proof of one of the best used-car salesmen currently in the Oval Office. :doh:

Out of all of the GOP and Independent possibilities, I feel Romney would do the best job and the least amount of bullshitting (though I have no doubt he'd throw some bullshit in there as they all do to get elected).

HTG I can name 2 guys on the list who don't do that and never have. You vote against one of them every day. You might not like what he's about, but you have to admit that he's 100% sincere and consistent about what he's saying.
I'm not pimpin' another candidate, just pointing out that not *all* politicians are insincere vote whores.

7SteelGal43
11-18-2010, 09:44 PM
Off topic, but I hope the Tea Party does split off and become a legit 3rd party. the 2 Party System is corrupt and adding a 3rd party would bring better balance overall. In fact I might be more inclined to vote for her if she did run on a separate "Tea Party" ticket, because that would mean to me she is really serious about this "shaking up the system"

The only problem I have with the Tea Party becoming a third party, legit or not, is it would probably take away votes from the Republican Party and let Obama easily win his second term. As I said before, I think conservatives are watching the Republicans they sent to Washington very closely, especially the Tea Party backed candidates. If they continue with business as usual RINO politics, there will STILL be only 2 parties. The Democrat Party and the Tea Party. The Republican party will go under.

zulater
11-19-2010, 06:43 AM
In a word, Romney is electable in a national election and should resonate well with Independents, who are the one's who in fact determine the Presidentcy in my opinion.

7SteelGal43
11-19-2010, 09:25 AM
In a word, Romney is electable in a national election and should resonate well with Independents, who are the one's who in fact determine the Presidentcy in my opinion.

well, electable doesn't mean it's a good or the right candidate. Electable is what gives us RINOs. blechhh

GoSlash27
11-19-2010, 07:33 PM
'Zackly. Obama was "electable". Hell, I'll even throw in "Presidential". But he was also completely untrustworthy and insincere and we all see where that got us.

st33lersguy
11-25-2010, 02:22 PM
Romney is starting to tank in our vote-off game

The WH
11-28-2010, 04:45 PM
Romney is starting to tank in our vote-off game
he´s so covered in mud you can hardly see him....people are starting to forget who he his..