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LLT
11-02-2010, 07:58 AM
Harris: Steelers still lack offensive identity
By John Harris,
PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Tuesday, November 2, 2010


Are the Steelers a passing team or a running team? We don't know yet, since the final numbers haven't been tabulated. What we do know is the Steelers are quarterback Ben Roethlisberger's team.

Since Roethlisberger's return three weeks ago, the Steelers are passing more and running less. Their passing yards and average yards per completion are up. Their rushing yards and yards per carry are down. They're averaging fewer points per game.

Read More:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_707167.html

HometownGal
11-02-2010, 08:47 AM
Seriously - who gives a rats ass whether they're a running team or a passing team??? Why can't they be a combo of both? As long as they get the job done (which obviously they didn't in Sunday night's game), why does their "identity" matter? Sometimes I just want to throttle the living shit out of some of these beat writers. :doh:

I think Hines says it best . . .


"We ran the ball (on the goal line in the second quarter). When they call a running play, we're expected to execute the running play. We didn't do that."



A lot of you want to pin the tail on BA and though I don't always agree with every one of his playcalls, I believe, as I always have, that a lot of the inefficiency of the offense is lack of execution by the players themselves, including the OL, as Hines so correctly states above. These plays are worked on repeatedly in practice and if both or either BA and/or Tomlin didn't feel they had a shot of working, I don't believe they'd be incorporated into the offensive playbook.

I could care less about their "offensive identity". If there are points being put up on the board, I don't give a shit how they got there as long as the end result is a W.

Chidi29
11-02-2010, 09:47 AM
Freakin' dead on HTG.

A lot of people claimed this offense was too "unbalanced". With balance, you won't have a true identity either way. Hence the term balance.

Fans need to figure out what they want first and stick with it.

Me? I just want to move the chains. I don't really care what identity we have to have in order to do that.

SteelGhost
11-02-2010, 03:38 PM
Seriously - who gives a rats ass whether they're a running team or a passing team??? Why can't they be a combo of both? As long as they get the job done (which obviously they didn't in Sunday night's game), why does their "identity" matter? Sometimes I just want to throttle the living shit out of some of these beat writers. :doh:

I think Hines says it best . . .



A lot of you want to pin the tail on BA and though I don't always agree with every one of his playcalls, I believe, as I always have, that a lot of the inefficiency of the offense is lack of execution by the players themselves, including the OL, as Hines so correctly states above. These plays are worked on repeatedly in practice and if both or either BA and/or Tomlin didn't feel they had a shot of working, I don't believe they'd be incorporated into the offensive playbook.

I could care less about their "offensive identity". If there are points being put up on the board, I don't give a shit how they got there as long as the end result is a W.

^^I agree 100% HTG :thumbsup:

The coaching staff has to reinforce the execution, and some players have to get better, specially the OL and the secondary IMHO.

Who cares if it's running or passing "identity" , just win fricking games :chuckle:

steelpride12
11-02-2010, 03:41 PM
Where did all this media hype about "identity" and "balance" come from? What happened to just winning games no matter how you do it sloppy or not. Thats mine and the Steelers philosophy just win!

shutdown
11-02-2010, 05:04 PM
A lot of you want to pin the tail on BA and though I don't always agree with every one of his playcalls, I believe, as I always have, that a lot of the inefficiency of the offense is lack of execution by the players themselves, including the OL, as Hines so correctly states above. These plays are worked on repeatedly in practice and if both or either BA and/or Tomlin didn't feel they had a shot of working, I don't believe they'd be incorporated into the offensive playbook.

I think what Hines said, is exactly what a player is suppose to say. He was given a play, and they didn't execute it. Only positive results show proper execution. Just like they failed to execute the 3rd and Inches play in Cleveland last season (we all remember that play) Doesn't make it the correct call.

Now Chidi (who knows me from a different forum) would laugh if I said I was a BA supporter. However, I want nothing more than to see BA succeed. I don't want to switch OC's. Not at this time, not with this team. But Chidi can verify, I have been asking for the same improvements for 3 seasons now, and am still not getting it.

Sure if we were ranking BA on moving the chains, he'd be top of the charts. Obviously Chidi is happy with just that. Aint no one better at moving that football from 20 to 20 than BA. That is until those Hines bottles tip down, then he's completely clueless. And the numbers don't lie:

In 2008 the Steelers were 39% Red Zone Scoring Percentage. (One of the worst Redzone numbers for a Superbowl team)

In 2009 the Steelers were 48% Red Zone Scoring Percentage.

This season they're 36.84% Red Zone Scoring Percentage.

With Ben they're 37.5%.

The League average is generally right around 54%.

Is this really the players fault? For 3 seasons we have seen the same ol' offensive struggles and they have not improved. This offense has not gotten better in the area's its lacking. Sure we're sometimes good at moving the ball down field, but I rarely see anyone (logical) complain about that.

What I have been looking for BA to improve, he has not. He is not improving his Red Zone offense like he said he would. He is not running better like he said he would. (running more does not count) He is not showing any improvements on his biggest weaknesses. We can blame it on the players and execution all we want, but after three seasons of hearing it, you start sounding like a broken record. And I am not buying it...

Tomlin is the one to tells the fans to expect perfection. This is his OC. The one he wants. So to me, getting frustrated with people criticize a far from perfect product which is what our is offense right now is silly.

I completely agree with you about the identity stuff. We thrive for a balanced efficient offense. We don't need no stinkin identity. (lol) But what we do need is efficiency. And we're not getting that as well as we should be.



Fans need to figure out what they want first and stick with it.


Chidi you know what I want, and i've been asking for it for it for a while now. :wave:

HometownGal
11-02-2010, 05:56 PM
I think what Hines said, is exactly what a player is suppose to say. He was given a play, and they didn't execute it. Only positive results show proper execution. Just like they failed to execute the 3rd and Inches play in Cleveland last season (we all remember that play) Doesn't make it the correct call.

Now Chidi (who knows me from a different forum) would laugh if I said I was a BA supporter. However, I want nothing more than to see BA succeed. I don't want to switch OC's. Not at this time, not with this team. But Chidi can verify, I have been asking for the same improvements for 3 seasons now, and am still not getting it.

Sure if we were ranking BA on moving the chains, he'd be top of the charts. Obviously Chidi is happy with just that. Aint no one better at moving that football from 20 to 20 than BA. That is until those Hines bottles tip down, then he's completely clueless. And the numbers don't lie:

In 2008 the Steelers were 39% Red Zone Scoring Percentage. (One of the worst Redzone numbers for a Superbowl team)

In 2009 the Steelers were 48% Red Zone Scoring Percentage.

This season they're 36.84% Red Zone Scoring Percentage.

With Ben they're 37.5%.

The League average is generally right around 54%.

Is this really the players fault? For 3 seasons we have seen the same ol' offensive struggles and they have not improved. This offense has not gotten better in the area's its lacking. Sure we're sometimes good at moving the ball down field, but I rarely see anyone (logical) complain about that.

What I have been looking for BA to improve, he has not. He is not improving his Red Zone offense like he said he would. He is not running better like he said he would. (running more does not count) He is not showing any improvements on his biggest weaknesses. We can blame it on the players and execution all we want, but after three seasons of hearing it, you start sounding like a broken record. And I am not buying it...

Tomlin is the one to tells the fans to expect perfection. This is his OC. The one he wants. So to me, getting frustrated with people criticize a far from perfect product which is what our is offense right now is silly.

I completely agree with you about the identity stuff. We thrive for a balanced efficient offense. We don't need no stinkin identity. (lol) But what we do need is efficiency. And we're not getting that as well as we should be.



Chidi you know what I want, and i've been asking for it for it for a while now. :wave:

I understand and appreciate what you're saying here, shutdown, and thank you for the respectable debate. :drink:

Any HC, OC, DC, STC or LC worth his salt will tell you that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. A coach can teach, teach, teach, practice, practice and practice and teach some more until he is blue in the face but if his unit doesn't execute what they've practiced and learned come game time, any given play simply is not going to fly. If they're not all on the same page, the play breaks down. What looks solid in practice may not work come game day for a variety of reasons, including the fact that there are experts on the other side of the ball who have a responsibility to their respective teams to sniff out the O's game plan and maneuver around it. BA, like every other coach out there, isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I don't expect him to be. I don't expect him to be responsible for the shoddy play at times of our OL, which, if you pay attention which I have no doubt you do - is somewhat responsible for the goal line issues; I don't expect him to wave his magic wand and cast a spell over his players to execute every single play to perfection and I don't expect every single play created by him and practiced by his unit to succeed. I expect him to utilize the players he has to work with in the roles he best sees fit in any given game, but the rest, imho, is up to THEM.


This season they're 36.84% Red Zone Scoring Percentage.


We're just coming up on the halfway point of the season - not a fair assessment imho.


For 3 seasons we have seen the same ol' offensive struggles and they have not improved

For those 3 seasons, we have seen the same ol' offensive line other than the addition of Pouncey and the Hotel Flo substitution for Colon.


He is not running better like he said he would. (running more does not count)



"He" isn't the one out there running the ball or run blocking. See reference to OL above. I know most BA bashers won't agree with me, but I don't care - our OL isn't very good overall and you'd have to be blind not to see it.


We can blame it on the players and execution all we want, but after three seasons of hearing it, you start sounding like a broken record.

I do put a lot of the blame on the players and execution and the players themselves know they simply aren't getting the job done. Getting fat ass Hartwig out and Pouncey in was a HUGE improvement but it just isn't enough imho.

Look - I am admittedly a supporter of BA and feel the guy is unfairly scapegoated (I remember last season all too well when his unit put up more than enough points to win those 6 games our D shit the bed in and HE was blamed for the losses. :doh:). He isn't the greatest OC to ever hold the title but he's far from the worst.

Don't feel bad - I haven't gotten what I've wanted for the last 3 seasons either - - the unfair badgering and scapegoating to STOP. :drink:

XxKnightxX
11-02-2010, 06:31 PM
I think our Identity should be an Offense that can Move the chains, Blow the other man out o fht eline of scrimmage, and one that executes on third downs and on the red zone. Thats the type of idenitity that I want.

shutdown
11-02-2010, 07:05 PM
I understand and appreciate what you're saying here, shutdown, and thank you for the respectable debate. :drink:

Any HC, OC, DC, STC or LC worth his salt will tell you that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. A coach can teach, teach, teach, practice, practice and practice and teach some more until he is blue in the face but if his unit doesn't execute what they've practiced and learned come game time, any given play simply is not going to fly. If they're not all on the same page, the play breaks down. What looks solid in practice may not work come game day for a variety of reasons, including the fact that there are experts on the other side of the ball who have a responsibility to their respective teams to sniff out the O's game plan and maneuver around it. BA, like every other coach out there, isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I don't expect him to be. I don't expect him to be responsible for the shoddy play at times of our OL, which, if you pay attention which I have no doubt you do - is somewhat responsible for the goal line issues; I don't expect him to wave his magic wand and cast a spell over his players to execute every single play to perfection and I don't expect every single play created by him and practiced by his unit to succeed. I expect him to utilize the players he has to work with in the roles he best sees fit in any given game, but the rest, imho, is up to THEM.

I do put a lot of the blame on the players and execution and the players themselves know they simply aren't getting the job done. Getting fat ass Hartwig out and Pouncey in was a HUGE improvement but it just isn't enough imho.

Look - I am admittedly a supporter of BA and feel the guy is unfairly scapegoated (I remember last season all too well when his unit put up more than enough points to win those 6 games our D shit the bed in and HE was blamed for the losses. :doh:). He isn't the greatest OC to ever hold the title but he's far from the worst.

Don't feel bad - I haven't gotten what I've wanted for the last 3 seasons either - - the unfair badgering and scapegoating to STOP. :drink:

See that's my whole point though. As someone who must direct his own staff of employee's, I am not going to sit there and ask of staff to do things they are incapable of doing. That would just make me look bad, and I know this. To me it seems like you're telling me that its ok for BA to continue to grind a square peg in a round hole. That's what makes zero sense to me.

And remember, it's this line, that is so shoddy at times, and so unable to execute on a consistent basis, is the exact same line BA has publicly campaigned for the last 2 seasons. With the addition of a stud center (which he wanted to keep Hartwig prior to drafting him), he is playing with the offensive line he wants. With the Quarterback he wants. With the TE's he wants. In the system he wants. So he's basically leading the horses he wants to the water, and we're not to blame him if they're unable to drink the water?

I know Chidi tries to downplay what BA says as coach speak, but there is a difference between telling the media "Yeah Kemo is a good guard and it would suck to lose him" and saying "It would be a mistake if we do not get Kemo re-signed". The Steelers have spent $20MIL on keeping the line that BA claims he wants. If they were as shoddy and unable to execute for 3 seasons, then why are the Steelers paying top dollar to keep them?

*shrugs*

Like I said, I want to see BA to succeed, but I have yet to see anyone prove to me this offense has gotten any better during BA's reign. Sure we can look at how padded irrelevant numbers got higher with a softer schedule, but the real numbers were looking for still arent there. This team cannot find that white line when they're within 20 yards of it. This team cannot run the football when they need it most. Ive yet to see any valid argument on what BA has done to improve this offense, only more finger pointing in other directions.

Also the badgering and scapegoating of Steeler OC's have gone on for decades. This should not be anything new to Steeler fans. ;)

tube517
11-02-2010, 07:05 PM
The identity I want is 7 time Super Bowl champion.

How about that.

Psycho Ward 86
11-02-2010, 07:09 PM
The identity I want is 7 time Super Bowl champion.

How about that.

HOLY SHIT what an answer

El-Gonzo Jackson
11-02-2010, 08:24 PM
I think what Harris is eluding to is that the Steelers are no where near as physicial of a team Offensively than they are Defensively.

Opposing offenses know they played a tough Steeler defense because they are beat up the day after. Opposing Defenses are ready to play an extra 15:00 because they are still fresh at the end of the game.

shutdown
11-02-2010, 08:32 PM
The identity I want is 7 time Super Bowl champion.

How about that.

No one can disagree with that.

Chidi29
11-02-2010, 09:12 PM
I think what Hines said, is exactly what a player is suppose to say. He was given a play, and they didn't execute it. Only positive results show proper execution. Just like they failed to execute the 3rd and Inches play in Cleveland last season (we all remember that play) Doesn't make it the correct call.

Now Chidi (who knows me from a different forum) would laugh if I said I was a BA supporter. However, I want nothing more than to see BA succeed. I don't want to switch OC's. Not at this time, not with this team. But Chidi can verify, I have been asking for the same improvements for 3 seasons now, and am still not getting it.

Sure if we were ranking BA on moving the chains, he'd be top of the charts. Obviously Chidi is happy with just that. Aint no one better at moving that football from 20 to 20 than BA. That is until those Hines bottles tip down, then he's completely clueless. And the numbers don't lie:

In 2008 the Steelers were 39% Red Zone Scoring Percentage. (One of the worst Redzone numbers for a Superbowl team)

In 2009 the Steelers were 48% Red Zone Scoring Percentage.

This season they're 36.84% Red Zone Scoring Percentage.

With Ben they're 37.5%.

The League average is generally right around 54%.

Is this really the players fault? For 3 seasons we have seen the same ol' offensive struggles and they have not improved. This offense has not gotten better in the area's its lacking. Sure we're sometimes good at moving the ball down field, but I rarely see anyone (logical) complain about that.

What I have been looking for BA to improve, he has not. He is not improving his Red Zone offense like he said he would. He is not running better like he said he would. (running more does not count) He is not showing any improvements on his biggest weaknesses. We can blame it on the players and execution all we want, but after three seasons of hearing it, you start sounding like a broken record. And I am not buying it...

Tomlin is the one to tells the fans to expect perfection. This is his OC. The one he wants. So to me, getting frustrated with people criticize a far from perfect product which is what our is offense right now is silly.

I completely agree with you about the identity stuff. We thrive for a balanced efficient offense. We don't need no stinkin identity. (lol) But what we do need is efficiency. And we're not getting that as well as we should be.



Chidi you know what I want, and i've been asking for it for it for a while now. :wave:

I understand that you want to see Arians do well and it's just a fact that you're disappointed that, in your mind, he's struggled in reaching that goal. From what I've seen, you aren't a rabid Arians fan that jumps down his throat everytime something goes wrong.

But let's clear up a couple things.

I am not content with our red zone efficiency. Not by any means. I want to see us do better in the red zone. On a different forum last year, I said, "We were 43% in the red zone, 22nd in the league. Obviously bad...".

I can't put all that on Arians though. Again, I'm always of the mindset of execution of playcalls. I can't begin to tell you the number of instances where we turned the ball over in the red zone. Studabaker's pick against KC, pick in the end zone against Oakland, a failed 4th and inches conversion again against the Raiders, etc. There were instances of sacks Ben took when we could have gotten the ball out, going back to his mentality of trying to extend the play. Risky business in the red zone when everything is condensed. I specifically remember one against the Bengals where he had Wallace running an in route in the back of the end zone against Mogran Trent who had his back turned. Ben decided not to throw the ball and ended up getting sacked. Later in that game out of th empty set, he pumps despite facing a heavy blitz look and ends up getting taken down.

Those are just the ones off the top of my head or ones I could look up with ease. Of course, this doesn't explain everything and it only partially explains last years numbers - the first year I went back and watched games - but I have a feeling that if these problems were occuring last year, they were two or three years ago.

Couple other thoughts.

1. I don't want to take away all the blame on Arians. Is he partially to blame? Of course. I just don't want to leave the players out of it.

2. For what it's worth, another site that ranked red zone efficiency (Included TDs and FGs in a basic forumla) had us tied for 17th. A little better.

3. Do you know where to find Whiz's numbers in the red zone during his time? I'm curious as to how they would stack up.

4. I just came across this and wondered what your, or anyone elses, thoughts are.

In 2010, we're tied for 10th at home at 62.5%.

On the road, we're dead last at 18.18%.

We have the largest disparity between road and home percentage. Any reason for this? I could see there being some difference, but it's quite the variation.

tube517
11-02-2010, 10:02 PM
Just out of boredom, I tried to look for red zone % under Whis and I only found it for the Super Bowl year of 2005. Steelers red zone TD percentage was 60.7 % (Tied for 4th in the NFL). Granted the stats are from Wikipedia but they look legit. I couldn't find any stats for 2004 or 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XL

shutdown
11-02-2010, 11:43 PM
I understand that you want to see Arians do well and it's just a fact that you're disappointed that, in your mind, he's struggled in reaching that goal. From what I've seen, you aren't a rabid Arians fan that jumps down his throat everytime something goes wrong.

But let's clear up a couple things.

I am not content with our red zone efficiency. Not by any means. I want to see us do better in the red zone. On a different forum last year, I said, "We were 43% in the red zone, 22nd in the league. Obviously bad...".

I can't put all that on Arians though. Again, I'm always of the mindset of execution of playcalls. I can't begin to tell you the number of instances where we turned the ball over in the red zone. Studabaker's pick against KC, pick in the end zone against Oakland, a failed 4th and inches conversion again against the Raiders, etc. There were instances of sacks Ben took when we could have gotten the ball out, going back to his mentality of trying to extend the play. Risky business in the red zone when everything is condensed. I specifically remember one against the Bengals where he had Wallace running an in route in the back of the end zone against Mogran Trent who had his back turned. Ben decided not to throw the ball and ended up getting sacked. Later in that game out of th empty set, he pumps despite facing a heavy blitz look and ends up getting taken down.

Those are just the ones off the top of my head or ones I could look up with ease. Of course, this doesn't explain everything and it only partially explains last years numbers - the first year I went back and watched games - but I have a feeling that if these problems were occuring last year, they were two or three years ago.

Couple other thoughts.

1. I don't want to take away all the blame on Arians. Is he partially to blame? Of course. I just don't want to leave the players out of it.

2. For what it's worth, another site that ranked red zone efficiency (Included TDs and FGs in a basic forumla) had us tied for 17th. A little better.

3. Do you know where to find Whiz's numbers in the red zone during his time? I'm curious as to how they would stack up.

4. I just came across this and wondered what your, or anyone elses, thoughts are.

In 2010, we're tied for 10th at home at 62.5%.

On the road, we're dead last at 18.18%.

We have the largest disparity between road and home percentage. Any reason for this? I could see there being some difference, but it's quite the variation.

Again though, how long are we going to blame the players? HTG confirmed, not much in regards to the talent on offense has changed over the years? Yet the same inconsistent product is what we continue to receive. I mean if its execution, then how does any OC lose his job? He can just blame the players for not executing his masterful plays properly?

I know if I told my boss that I told my developers what to program, they just didn't program properly, i'd get my ass chewed and told to correct the problem.

Its not hard to come up with a laundry list of bad things wrong with this offense, though thats typically easy in any situation because we only notice the bad. (we never notice the toothache when its gone, lol) But rarely have I seen any good come out of this offense or any BA supporters come up with some strong evidence that BA is doing some good. Only finger pointing at other people who are the problem, and not BA.

For the sake of being openminded, ive tried to come up with a few but for each thing ive come up with, I had an equal opposing argument that pretty much shut it down. Eventually I came up with some good, but they came no where near to outweighing the bad.

I am just waiting for a valid argument for why BA is so great and less finger pointing at other people to blame. Convince us, he is the savior to this offense, and stop with the finger pointing! Explain why that 3rd and Inches call in Cleveland was brilliant (lol just joking on that one)

shutdown
11-02-2010, 11:59 PM
Just out of boredom, I tried to look for red zone % under Whis and I only found it for the Super Bowl year of 2005. Steelers red zone TD percentage was 60.7 % (Tied for 4th in the NFL). Granted the stats are from Wikipedia but they look legit. I couldn't find any stats for 2004 or 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XL

I remember the 2004 Redzone numbers were amazing as well, IIRC the numbers were in the 70%. Not too sure about 2006.

Chidi29
11-05-2010, 04:16 PM
Again though, how long are we going to blame the players? HTG confirmed, not much in regards to the talent on offense has changed over the years? Yet the same inconsistent product is what we continue to receive. I mean if its execution, then how does any OC lose his job? He can just blame the players for not executing his masterful plays properly?

I know if I told my boss that I told my developers what to program, they just didn't program properly, i'd get my ass chewed and told to correct the problem.

Its not hard to come up with a laundry list of bad things wrong with this offense, though thats typically easy in any situation because we only notice the bad. (we never notice the toothache when its gone, lol) But rarely have I seen any good come out of this offense or any BA supporters come up with some strong evidence that BA is doing some good. Only finger pointing at other people who are the problem, and not BA.

For the sake of being openminded, ive tried to come up with a few but for each thing ive come up with, I had an equal opposing argument that pretty much shut it down. Eventually I came up with some good, but they came no where near to outweighing the bad.

I am just waiting for a valid argument for why BA is so great and less finger pointing at other people to blame. Convince us, he is the savior to this offense, and stop with the finger pointing! Explain why that 3rd and Inches call in Cleveland was brilliant (lol just joking on that one)

I'll keep blaming the players as I continue to watch what I see to be mistakes. In general, I'm not an anti-coach person. I'd rather look towards putting it on the players' shoulders than the coaches. Reason being is that we don't get to see the coaches go to work. Their biggest contribution comes on Monday through Saturday. Not Sunday.

That's how an OC gets fired. Or at least should in my eyes. He doesn't prepare the team enough or put in the needed/expected work during the week.

Maybe some of these plays aren't actually mistakes on the players as you and I may perceive them to be. But it's nearly impossible for us to see that being the coaches fault. Because of that, I go with lack of execution.

I know you just gave an analogy, but it was a bad one. The programs themselves can't make mistakes. Players aren't programmed; they aren't robotic. They're taught and are prone to mistakes. Two different situations.

My defense of Bruce Arians has come from misconceptions (He isn't balanced, doesn't use the FB, etc.) that people create.

I see him as a guy who has helped transform this offense. To take over a primarily running, power offense and helping to turn it into a potent one. Not a flawless one, but a potent one and one of the best in the league in Ben ever becomes consistent. That's why I'm fine with Arians being here, and that's the good I see in him.