The Kenny Pickett Thread

[Edman]

Canada the genius has his own thread. Why not the other side of the equation? As we know, KP has been bad in his first two games. Missing throws left and right. He's throwing the ball, but his timing is way off.

Last Week against the Niners he was way behind on his throws. Then last night Pickett seemed to overcorrect and just pulled the trigger much too early without looking or progressing. He played much better than Week 1, but still lots more work to do. Poor O-Line play and Asinine playcalling isn't helping him, but he needs to up his game more. Herculean efforts by the Defense week after week isn't sustainable.

On a positive side. Pickett and Pickens connected for a few big gains last night. George Pickens is our bread and butter and the one KP trusts the most. Ever since last year, KP looks much better and confident throwing to Pickens. The dude is that guy. Sadly, I don't trust this coaching staff to dial up something to get these two connected consistently.

[Mojouw]

Take out his last year where he ran around and threw to Addison and look at the stats. Very similar.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/kenny-pickett-1.html
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PickKe00.htm

He's a gritty guy with off-the charts leadership intangibles. But he is a system QB trapped in a catastrophic system. It is a recipe for failure and frustration.

[steelcityboyz]

I'm not going to freak out and panic with Kenny just yet. Yes he's playing pretty bad right now, but I think he and the coaches need a full season to see what he's capable of. After the season if he still looks bad, address it in the draft. I don't think anybody thought KP was going to come in here and take the Steelers to the super bowl in his first season, i mean look how bad Bradshaw played in his first few seasons.

[oneforthetoe]

Not giving up on Kenny yet but there is something wrong at the moment. He has always missed his share of easy passes, but he seems confused, which goes against what is seen as his strength. Is it Canada? Did Kenny get overconfident with his late season and preseason success? Whatever the issue it better get worked out. One thing for sure is we need to get a run game going - and not wait until the 4th quarter.

One sliver of hope to me is that is that I don't think Kenny is the type of player who will fall into a shell for the season. We get a run game going, use play action to Pickens and maybe we can get slightly above average offense for the season. couple that with a great D and we could still be a force to reckon with.

[DuckHodges]

I have higher expectations of him in his 2nd year. The 2nd year is often telling about where the player will go the rest of his career, and honestly I'm not impressed right now.

[El Kabong]

I think it's too soon to try to definitively say anything about Kenny. I'm holding out hope that they will get the offense sorted and by October look like an actual bona fide NFL offense.

[86WARD]

How do we know what we are really getting in Pickett if the offense is so bad?

[Steeler-in-west]

Last years KP was good, he looked like a future franchise QB. This year, best I can think of he’s not prepared and the o line doesn’t look good. Cole looks like he’s being overpowered and Moore doesn’t look good either. But overall lack of preparedness of KP in particular, I can think of one or two people to point the finger at for that.

[DesertSteel]

That near interception throw near the sideline... Who makes that kind of throw?! It's inexplicable.

[DesertSteel]

Pickett's QBR is 18.8, last in the NFL.

[Craic]

That near interception throw near the sideline... Who makes that kind of throw?! It's inexplicable.
I wouldn't say its inexplicable, not by a long shot. We just don't like the explanation. Here's how I see it.

1. Offensive line sucks right now, Pickett can sit in the pocket and throw the ball.
2. Pickett feels like he needs to make things happen.
3. Add together one and two, and he moves outside the pocket and makes a horrible pass downfield trying to force something to happen. I don't think he was throwing that ball away, or, if he was, it was a split second and half-hearted decision, which is why you saw it go where it did.

I wasn't sold on the kid last year until the end of the year. I was excited for him to come back. But now, I'm back to where I was the middle of last year. It's too early to make any long-lasting decisions and more importantly, his O-line needs more time to come together and give him more options (i.e. more time and the possibility of a run game).

At this point, vintage Ben R. would be mediocre behind this line. In fact . . . he was. Just think about 2008. That defense carried us to the SB. The offense sucked because the O line sucked.

[ETL]

I just watched the game on DVR. I personally think Pickett played as best as he could.

Our OL played like shit. Maybe it was because Cleveland has a really good defensive front but I challenge any QB to try to play well behind a shitty OL like that. Every single OL player had snaps where they looked embarrassing.

unless the OL shapes up, Kenny will continue to look bad. And even worse he will get injured.

I think Kenny played decent. I’m glad at least he didn’t give up two TDs like Watson did. And I promise you there is more whining by Steelers fans over how Pickett is than Browns fans complaining about Watson not protecting the ball.

[DuckHodges]

I just watched the game on DVR. I personally think Pickett played as best as he could.

Our OL played like shit. Maybe it was because Cleveland has a really good defensive front but I challenge any QB to try to play well behind a shitty OL like that. Every single OL player had snaps where they looked embarrassing.

unless the OL shapes up, Kenny will continue to look bad. And even worse he will get injured.

I think Kenny played decent. I’m glad at least he didn’t give up two TDs like Watson did. And I promise you there is more whining by Steelers fans over how Pickett is than Browns fans complaining about Watson not protecting the ball.

as steelers fans we have higher expectations. the browns fanbase is probably punch drunk and is used to sucking

[stillers4me]

As Steeler fans, we are used to Ben making chicken salad out of chicken shit.

1. Kenny is not Ben.
2. Kenny is playing scared because he doesn't trust his O-line nor does he have faith in the plays that are being called. He is totally justified in #2.
3. Kenny is trying to make chicken salad but is being set up for failure because ...see #1.

I'm not judging him until #2 is fixed and he can become his own man.

[Born2Steel]

It is tough to find a Rodgers to follow Favre, or a Young to follow Montana. Back to back HoFers is rare. Maybe don’t hope for the moon with KP when all we really need is be better than Trubisky/Rudolph.

[Dwinsgames]

That near interception throw near the sideline... Who makes that kind of throw?! It's inexplicable.

1 million percent agree

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It is tough to find a Rodgers to follow Favre, or a Young to follow Montana. Back to back HoFers is rare. Maybe don’t hope for the moon with KP when all we really need is be better than Trubisky/Rudolph.

but is he ? sure doesn't look like it thus far

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Pickett's QBR is 18.8, last in the NFL.
....

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as I have said before ...I was NOT in favor of drafting him to begin with ....

but since he is now here and he is what we got I most certainly want him to turn out to be awesome ... I WANT TO EAT CROW on this one but its looking less and less like I will have to ...

[Mojouw]

I wouldn't say its inexplicable, not by a long shot. We just don't like the explanation. Here's how I see it.

1. Offensive line sucks right now, Pickett can sit in the pocket and throw the ball.
2. Pickett feels like he needs to make things happen.
3. Add together one and two, and he moves outside the pocket and makes a horrible pass downfield trying to force something to happen. I don't think he was throwing that ball away, or, if he was, it was a split second and half-hearted decision, which is why you saw it go where it did.

I wasn't sold on the kid last year until the end of the year. I was excited for him to come back. But now, I'm back to where I was the middle of last year. It's too early to make any long-lasting decisions and more importantly, his O-line needs more time to come together and give him more options (i.e. more time and the possibility of a run game).

At this point, vintage Ben R. would be mediocre behind this line. In fact . . . he was. Just think about 2008. That defense carried us to the SB. The offense sucked because the O line sucked.

There is one other factor at work.

Last year, it took a handful of weeks for KP to adjust to the NFL. Than over the second half of the season, he adjusted, the offense came together, and we all thought we saw the next 10 year+ starting QB. BUT...and I totally forgot this because I got excited....the NFL didn't have enough tape to adjust to KP. Now they do. Now teams can gameplan for KP and his tendencies. They can take away things and force KP into situations he doesn't want to be in. Can KP counter-adjust? Right now, it looks like he can not. If he is as football smart as they claim....he will.

And it needs mentioned that the offensive system isn't doing him any favors by being totally predictable and doing nothing to make his life easier. Watch the LBs next Steelers game. They are moving instantly to where the ball is going. That is basically impossible to do in the NFL unless you are just totally sure of what a team is doing pre-snap.

I am trying to remain positive (it is now mid-week and I got all my angst out last few days) and talk myself into KP (again). But I do have concerns that the ONLY college season where he looked like an NFL QB prospect seems to be his last college season and the one where he decided that running around and flinging YOLO passes to Addison was a good idea. What if that isn't KP and the "real" KP is the guy who spent all those other years completing 60% (or less) of his passes for like a dozen TDs and 9 picks against not exactly a murder's row of mid-major and below opponents?

At the end of last season and this off-season I was convinced that KP was going to be another example of missed scouting by the publicly available draft "experts". And they miss a great deal. But they also get a great deal correct. What if "they" were right about KP? As an analogous example....there were detractors about Bryce Young. And from the little I have seen....they may be correct. His game does not translate well to the NFL.

Anyway....I think that "wait and see"....as your post is advising....is the only realistic response. I went from not worrying about KP's ultimate ceiling to being back to worried about it.

[86WARD]

Are teams adjusting to Kenny or are they just familiar with the same offense that has been trotted out there week after week for four seasons?

Why would a team bother scheming for Kenny when they already know the offense? There’s no point…

[Mojouw]

Are teams adjusting to Kenny or are they just familiar with the same offense that has been trotted out there week after week for four seasons?

Why would a team bother scheming for Kenny when they already know the offense? There’s no point…

Either way....it is the same end result.

I know you hate the scheme and the OC. I do as well. But....but....there are multiple plays a game (both completed and incomplete) where even Canada's garbage calls get guys open. Last season KP hit those for doubles, triples, and home runs almost every time. This season he is just missing them. So as much as I agree that Canada is making this all far harder than it should be....KP is solely to blame for a portion of this crap-sandwich as well.

[Steeler-in-west]

There is one other factor at work.

Last year, it took a handful of weeks for KP to adjust to the NFL. Than over the second half of the season, he adjusted, the offense came together, and we all thought we saw the next 10 year+ starting QB. BUT...and I totally forgot this because I got excited....the NFL didn't have enough tape to adjust to KP. Now they do. Now teams can gameplan for KP and his tendencies. They can take away things and force KP into situations he doesn't want to be in. Can KP counter-adjust? Right now, it looks like he can not. If he is as football smart as they claim....he will.

And it needs mentioned that the offensive system isn't doing him any favors by being totally predictable and doing nothing to make his life easier. Watch the LBs next Steelers game. They are moving instantly to where the ball is going. That is basically impossible to do in the NFL unless you are just totally sure of what a team is doing pre-snap.

I am trying to remain positive (it is now mid-week and I got all my angst out last few days) and talk myself into KP (again). But I do have concerns that the ONLY college season where he looked like an NFL QB prospect seems to be his last college season and the one where he decided that running around and flinging YOLO passes to Addison was a good idea. What if that isn't KP and the "real" KP is the guy who spent all those other years completing 60% (or less) of his passes for like a dozen TDs and 9 picks against not exactly a murder's row of mid-major and below opponents?

At the end of last season and this off-season I was convinced that KP was going to be another example of missed scouting by the publicly available draft "experts". And they miss a great deal. But they also get a great deal correct. What if "they" were right about KP? As an analogous example....there were detractors about Bryce Young. And from the little I have seen....they may be correct. His game does not translate well to the NFL.

Anyway....I think that "wait and see"....as your post is advising....is the only realistic response. I went from not worrying about KP's ultimate ceiling to being back to worried about it.

you stole my line about the tape, or you beat me to it. This is where a good offensive coordinator comes in and makes adjustments to help KP counter what the defenses are doing. More design roll outs quick dump offs to Warren and Najee, something to get KP into rhythm. Right now KP is off and second guessing - so he’s missing stuff he would’ve seen last year.

[86WARD]

Either way....it is the same end result.

I know you hate the scheme and the OC. I do as well. But....but....there are multiple plays a game (both completed and incomplete) where even Canada's garbage calls get guys open. Last season KP hit those for doubles, triples, and home runs almost every time. This season he is just missing them. So as much as I agree that Canada is making this all far harder than it should be....KP is solely to blame for a portion of this crap-sandwich as well.

I believe the same and like any QB, Pickett misses reads. I just wonder how many of those “open guys” are even part of the actual “reads/play” at those times. Is he missing those reads or being instructed to not play that read? Remember, the same issue was there with Trubisky and Ben.


Questions can be asked and everyone can debate a k and forth either way but the end result is always the same…there’s a lot of shit fucked up with this offensive unit and the easiest fix is to start with the OC and work down from there. Easier to replace one than eleven with salary cap implications.

[pczach]

I wouldn't say its inexplicable, not by a long shot. We just don't like the explanation. Here's how I see it.

1. Offensive line sucks right now, Pickett can sit in the pocket and throw the ball.
2. Pickett feels like he needs to make things happen.
3. Add together one and two, and he moves outside the pocket and makes a horrible pass downfield trying to force something to happen. I don't think he was throwing that ball away, or, if he was, it was a split second and half-hearted decision, which is why you saw it go where it did.

I wasn't sold on the kid last year until the end of the year. I was excited for him to come back. But now, I'm back to where I was the middle of last year. It's too early to make any long-lasting decisions and more importantly, his O-line needs more time to come together and give him more options (i.e. more time and the possibility of a run game).

At this point, vintage Ben R. would be mediocre behind this line. In fact . . . he was. Just think about 2008. That defense carried us to the SB. The offense sucked because the O line sucked.


Everyone agrees Patrick Mahomes is a great quarrterback. Now go back and watch him in the super bowl a couple years ago where his offensive line couldn't block anybody. He didn't look like Patrick Mahomes anymore.

This stuff matters. The offensive line needs to come together as a unit and clean up their act. It isn't pretty right now.

Pickett still needs to do better when he has players open, but the pressure is affecting his footwork, which affects his abililty to throw the ball acurately. He is also pressing, trying to make plays, which leads to bad decisions and interceptions.

Everything will calm down and get better when the OL begins to play at a reasonable level. They are nowhere near that yet IMO.

Also, when Pickett last DJ, he lost his best route runner. He knew where DJ was going to be on every play, and when he was going to get there. The OL already has him off schedule. Not having that glue guy that provides stability and a player that has his game on the clock is hurting him right now.

And just to add one thing here. The tight ends are not being used again. This wreaks of the Matt Canada offense with whatever impact Tomlin has on limiting things. It ain't working.

This is not even close to being all Kenny Pickett. It looks like Canada is only giving him half the field to play with. That can work here and there somtimes, but when you can't even look off the safeties, everyone is following the eyes of the QB and flying to the spot. This is quarterback coaching and football 101 here that they are failing. They should be embarrassed.

[Devil's D]

I see a lot of contortion to minimize Pickett’s responsibility. The entire offense looks bad, and Pickett in particular looks as bad as anyone else on the team (besides maybe Gunner). Just like the poor play of other units impact his performance, his poor performance has impacted the other units….including the plays the Steeler’s bum of an OC can call. Most importantly, I’m pretty sure Pickett is the one actually throwing the ball during these HUGE misses. Not Canada or anyone on the O-Line. Pickett’s poor play has been a BIG part of the inept offence for the past two game. This is not even close to being everyone but Kenny Pickett….it is everyone AND Kenny Pickett.

I was excited about how he ended last year, and even about his performance in preseason. Hopefully this is just a bad run, and he gets back to that level of play. However, it seems that a lot of young QBs follow the same pattern. That is, struggle early, have a couple break-out games, and after teams get enough tape……abruptly drift into obscurity.

[RunNGun]

1 million percent agree

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but is he ? sure doesn't look like it thus far

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....

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as I have said before ...I was NOT in favor of drafting him to begin with ....

but since he is now here and he is what we got I most certainly want him to turn out to be awesome ... I WANT TO EAT CROW on this one but its looking less and less like I will have to ...

Some guy said that Sam Howell might have been a better option. Idk who he was but maybe he was right? ;) I'll give KP some more time, but as of right now that guy is looking right.

[dislocatedday]

Some guy said that Sam Howell might have been a better option. Idk who he was but maybe he was right? ;) I'll give KP some more time, but as of right now that guy is looking right.

That was Dwinsgames. He has been the most vocal about Howell, but I did also have Howell as the guy I wanted the Steelers to draft last year. Howell lost most of his supporting cast his last year in college, and so his stat numbers were not as good and this affected his"draft stock". I really liked Howell coming out though.

Howell has Eric Beienemy now though as his OC.......whereas Pickett is saddled with Matt Canada. I'm not ready to give up on Pickett, but he really does need to turn it around and start making better passes when he does throw it.

[steel striker]

Some guy said that Sam Howell might have been a better option. Idk who he was but maybe he was right? ;) I'll give KP some more time, but as of right now that guy is looking right.
Not to mention it does not hurt when your OC is Eric Bieniemy!

[Born2Steel]

Lol!! We coulda had Baker Mayfield too!

[steelcityboyz]

Everyone agrees Patrick Mahomes is a great quarrterback. Now go back and watch him in the super bowl a couple years ago where his offensive line couldn't block anybody. He didn't look like Patrick Mahomes anymore.

This stuff matters. The offensive line needs to come together as a unit and clean up their act. It isn't pretty right now.

Pickett still needs to do better when he has players open, but the pressure is affecting his footwork, which affects his abililty to throw the ball acurately. He is also pressing, trying to make plays, which leads to bad decisions and interceptions.

Everything will calm down and get better when the OL begins to play at a reasonable level. They are nowhere near that yet IMO.

Also, when Pickett last DJ, he lost his best route runner. He knew where DJ was going to be on every play, and when he was going to get there. The OL already has him off schedule. Not having that glue guy that provides stability and a player that has his game on the clock is hurting him right now.

And just to add one thing here. The tight ends are not being used again. This wreaks of the Matt Canada offense with whatever impact Tomlin has on limiting things. It ain't working.

This is not even close to being all Kenny Pickett. It looks like Canada is only giving him half the field to play with. That can work here and there somtimes, but when you can't even look off the safeties, everyone is following the eyes of the QB and flying to the spot. This is quarterback coaching and football 101 here that they are failing. They should be embarrassed.I totally agree with it not even being close to being all Kenny Pickett, as one poster here would LOVE it to be. That said, good post!

[DesertSteel]

I wouldn't say its inexplicable, not by a long shot. We just don't like the explanation. Here's how I see it.

1. Offensive line sucks right now, Pickett can sit in the pocket and throw the ball.
2. Pickett feels like he needs to make things happen.
3. Add together one and two, and he moves outside the pocket and makes a horrible pass downfield trying to force something to happen. I don't think he was throwing that ball away, or, if he was, it was a split second and half-hearted decision, which is why you saw it go where it did.

I wasn't sold on the kid last year until the end of the year. I was excited for him to come back. But now, I'm back to where I was the middle of last year. It's too early to make any long-lasting decisions and more importantly, his O-line needs more time to come together and give him more options (i.e. more time and the possibility of a run game).

At this point, vintage Ben R. would be mediocre behind this line. In fact . . . he was. Just think about 2008. That defense carried us to the SB. The offense sucked because the O line sucked.
Downfield? Are you talking about the same play? It was on the sideline and it was an easy throw away and he threw it right at the defender who wasn’t far away.

[cubanstogie]

I missed the niner game , due to golf trip with insufferable niner fans. He certainly didn’t look like preseason KP or the KP from last year against the Browns. It’s possible we played 2 of best D’s in league tho. I’m going to see what happens against mediocre D’s before I call him a bust or declare we should’ve taken Sam Howell. I’m good with 1-1, considering niners have most talent in the league. Hopefully the O line improves like last year from game to game.

[Mojouw]

I missed the niner game , due to golf trip with insufferable niner fans. He certainly didn’t look like preseason KP or the KP from last year against the Browns. It’s possible we played 2 of best D’s in league tho. I’m going to see what happens against mediocre D’s before I call him a bust or declare we should’ve taken Sam Howell. I’m good with 1-1, considering niners have most talent in the league. Hopefully the O line improves like last year from game to game.

All reasonable and good things.

But if KP can basically not function against high-end defenses, then where does that leave the franchise overall?

Capped out at Wild Card weekend?

If so, when do you end the KP era and start looking for the next guy who can run the playoff gauntlet?

I don’t think we are there yet BUT what if KP doesn’t look much different by the end of the season?

[EzraTank]

My God it has been two bad games, against very good defenses, with a horrible offense in place and an offensive line that has been horrible as well.

The only time Canada's offense has ever succeeded is when Ben (a 15+ year vet) called his own plays and played street ball, something Pickett just doesn't have the experience to do yet. Hopefully in the next few games the OL gels and plays better, making Pickett feel more comfortable in the pocket allowing him to fix his timing on his throws. Yes he has to play better, but as long as Matt Canada remains our OC this offense is going to stink. The fact this guy still has a job is just another red check mark against Tomlin.

[vasteeler]

My God it has been two bad games, against very good defenses, with a horrible offense in place and an offensive line that has been horrible as well.

The only time Canada's offense has ever succeeded is when Ben (a 15+ year vet) called his own plays and played street ball, something Pickett just doesn't have the experience to do yet. Hopefully in the next few games the OL gels and plays better, making Pickett feel more comfortable in the pocket allowing him to fix his timing on his throws. Yes he has to play better, but as long as Matt Canada remains our OC this offense is going to stink. The fact this guy still has a job is just another red check mark against Tomlin.

Great post. Agree 100%

[Devil's D]

Successful NFL QBs are going to need to make plays against the best defenses.

Neither Canada nor the O-Line was throwing those wildly inaccurate passes from a clean pocket.

He has had a horrible supporting cast and faced stiff competition, but objectively…..Pickett’s play over the last two games has been absolutely horrendous:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

It is still very early, and I’m confident that his play will improve (lol, at this point it cannot get much worse). But, Kenny Pickett’s play in the last two weeks has to concern anyone that wants the Steelers to be competitive this year and question his viability as the QB for the future.

[Edman]

Kenny started very slow last season then incrementally got better. Looks like he has to do it again.

But I fear as long as Matt Canada is here, the offense will be capped.

[Born2Steel]

We have an inexpensive QB. Take this time to build the team around him now. THEN, go get your franchise QB. We have accrued some nice weapons, improved the OL even if it’s not perfect yet, and seem to have a pretty good defensive group. A few more tweaks here and there. Enjoy.

[86WARD]

You don’t know who a QB really is until Year 3-4 anyway. Having Canada in there for these first two seasons is stunting that evaluation and clearly skewing it in the wrong direction and we know this because the result has been the same with several QBs and there’s no real history of success with this guy…even at the college level.

[cubanstogie]

All reasonable and good things.

But if KP can basically not function against high-end defenses, then where does that leave the franchise overall?

Capped out at Wild Card weekend?

If so, when do you end the KP era and start looking for the next guy who can run the playoff gauntlet?

I don’t think we are there yet BUT what if KP doesn’t look much different by the end of the season?
If he plays poorly next two games and are 1-3, I’ll be concerned. As far as your last sentence, I think it’s a dynamic situation. Depends on how bad he plays, how good QB draft class is and how low Steelers pick. I think he’d have to be awful for Steelers to move on after a year. I really think those are moot points, I see him turning it around and making playoffs.

[El Kabong]

All reasonable and good things.

But if KP can basically not function against high-end defenses, then where does that leave the franchise overall?

Capped out at Wild Card weekend?

If so, when do you end the KP era and start looking for the next guy who can run the playoff gauntlet?

I don’t think we are there yet BUT what if KP doesn’t look much different by the end of the season?
I think it's too soon to ask these questions.

[Mojouw]

I think it's too soon to ask these questions.

For right now? Sure. But for the “Franchise” guys that big $$$ extension comes in after Year 3 of the rookie deal.

So IF Steelers want to commit to KP, this year and next are the last ones he’s cheap. So they have to go “all in” right now to maximize that rookie QB factor before it evaporates.

By no later than the start of this off-season, they need to decide if they’re pushing their chips in on KP or folding and gathering resources to get the next QB.

Almost certainly not how they’ll approach it. Gotta compete every year but if they really want to do this thing, that’s how it’s done. Life moves fast in the salary cap NFL.

[Dwinsgames]

does Canada suck , certainly thats why we have a thread like 40+ pages long I think about him ...

all that said there is plenty of evidence of open Receivers that

A) never get a look because Pickett locks on to 1 at the snap and never looks anyplace else , doesn't even look off the defender

B) Pickett bounces the ball off the turf 5 yards short of the receiver

C) Pickett throws behind the receiver

and all of those attempts fall incomplete .....

So Yes Canada SUCKS but at the end of the day when A) B) and C) are happening multiple times per game that is on the QB as Canada isnt throwing the football Pickett is ..these are drive killing plays , back breakers when the offense sucks and the QB gets an open man and doesn't take his eyes off the first read or throws behind his man or bounces it off the turf short ...

11-30 on balls that traveled more than 5 yards in the air last week ....

one of the best TE in all of football many believe is PF yet he had 1 catch for 2 yards ....

80% of our offense last week was run after the catch by Pickens and Warren ...... no completions of more than 12 air yards .... that will put extra men in the box and what limited running game we have now will be gone too .... at this point I am starting to ramble and get pissed so I am done
The old adage stands true here , Pickett needs to control what is within his control and thus far in 2023 he has failed to do just that

[86WARD]

does Canada suck , certainly thats why we have a thread like 40+ pages long I think about him ...

all that said there is plenty of evidence of open Receivers that

A) never get a look because Pickett locks on to 1 at the snap and never looks anyplace else , doesn't even look off the defender

B) Pickett bounces the ball off the turf 5 yards short of the receiver

C) Pickett throws behind the receiver

and all of those attempts fall incomplete .....

So Yes Canada SUCKS but at the end of the day when A) B) and C) are happening multiple times per game that is on the QB as Canada isnt throwing the football Pickett is ..these are drive killing plays , back breakers when the offense sucks and the QB gets an open man and doesn't take his eyes off the first read or throws behind his man or bounces it off the turf short ...

11-30 on balls that traveled more than 5 yards in the air last week ....

one of the best TE in all of football many believe is PF yet he had 1 catch for 2 yards ....

80% of our offense last week was run after the catch by Pickens and Warren ...... no completions of more than 12 air yards .... that will put extra men in the box and what limited running game we have now will be gone too .... at this point I am starting to ramble and get pissed so I am done
The old adage stands true here , Pickett needs to control what is within his control and thus far in 2023 he has failed to do just that

Some of that offense instructs Pickett to only look to one receiver. This was Trubisky gripe with the offense. All three of those things happened with Rudolph, Trubisky and Ben…when Ben had his “weak arm”. When it’s happening to every QB on the roster, it’s a little more than just the QB.

It’s also very easy to bounce balls, throw off target when you got guys being pushed back two yards into your face. Again, Pickett didn’t play well. He’s only a small part of the problem.

When the offense instructs the QB to throw short, runs short routes, it’s hard for a QB to throw down field. We will never know what Pickett really is until there’s a competent and consistent coordinator running the offense. Watching the 49ers and even the Giants and it’s like watching a real NFL offense and not a middle school offense which is what the Steelers are running.

[Mojouw]

Last season KP experienced his biggest success throwing one on one along the sideline. Pickens darn near led the league in these kinds of targets. Johnson wasn’t far behind.

But what are the current trends in defense league wide focused on eliminating? Exactly those throws. Guys like Burrow and Mahomes are struggling to hit those.

Defense has a book on what KP likes. And it’s precisely what teams are almost all built to take away.

From what I think I understand the counter is short to intermediate in breaking routes. Again, as DWins posted, precisely the throws KP is missing right now.

To address 86Ward and others point(s), Canada is not getting to these routes in a clever or even acceptable manner. His concepts are not up to standard and do nothing to make things easier.

But the potential is there to make plays and the QB is not executing. I have no idea why a guy who was billed as being accurate and a quick processor is suddenly unable to read pre snap and can’t seem to hit the broadside of a barn. But he’s not helping. The one time he did execute, it was an explosive play TD.

I’m also going to take ANYTHING Trubisky says with a dump truck full of salt.

[Steeler-in-west]

Don’t ignore the O Line. KP was hit on average 2.5 times a game last year. This year? 11 times already in two games. Primary problems to me are 1. The line, 2. Canada is not doing anything right now to compensate for the lack of time KP has.

[Jens_Karlsson]

The only think that everbody talked about before the draft, and actually last season once he got going, was "he can put the ball where it needs to be". and composure...
So, that just dont suddenly disappear... it has to be something else... scheme? o-line ? hits / not feeling well.. I am not giving up anywhere near this early. He has the traits for a great QB.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Mojouw]

I was and still believe KP can be very successful. My posts over the course of last season chart my course of being a KP convert.

But I’m not willing to totally discount the notion that he’s either worse than I thought or broken. His success and the whole offense second half of the season was not exactly staggering and it was against poor teams.

What does KP do well? We’ve been told he’s accurate and savvy. Is that actually what’s on tape? I can no longer recall. But I’ve a hard time believing he suddenly can’t throw a crossing route. He’s probably been doing that since he’s been 12.

Most of you are far smarter than I am. So what’s the foundation KP can build on? What does he do well? What does he do exceptionally well? What if the answer is nothing?

[Dwinsgames]

I was and still believe KP can be very successful. My posts over the course of last season chart my course of being a KP convert.

But I’m not willing to totally discount the notion that he’s either worse than I thought or broken. His success and the whole offense second half of the season was not exactly staggering and it was against poor teams.

What does KP do well? We’ve been told he’s accurate and savvy. Is that actually what’s on tape? I can no longer recall. But I’ve a hard time believing he suddenly can’t throw a crossing route. He’s probably been doing that since he’s been 12.

Most of you are far smarter than I am. So what’s the foundation KP can build on? What does he do well? What does he do exceptionally well? What if the answer is nothing?


so at best we have a QB who can beat up on bad teams ?

if that is the case may as well start looking for a new one because that simply isnt good enough

[Steeler-in-west]

What can any qb do behind a bad line, and a bad OC, it’s not KP

maybe I’m wrong but I kind of doubt it, I think QB’s are high profile so their easier to pick on

[Mojouw]

What can any qb do behind a bad line, and a bad OC, it’s not KP

maybe I’m wrong but I kind of doubt it, I think QB’s are high profile so their easier to pick on

So here is why my "thinking" (if you can what the hamsters in my head do thinking)...when Trevor Lawrence was trapped in an awful system behind a bad O-line with no playmakers his rookie year....you could still see things he did that were like..."Oh crap! If they can just build around this guy there is an amazing QB waiting to be unleashed!".

I am struggling to see the same things with KP. Now last years KP....sure. This year's version....looks like the version his worst pre-draft critics were predicting.

[DesertSteel]

Year one: He’s just a rookie
Year two: It’s Canada’s fault
Year three: He’s learning a new system
Year four: Oops

Now we’re in the 2026 season…

[86WARD]

Year one: He’s just a rookie
Year two: It’s Canada’s fault
Year three: He’s learning a new system
Year four: Oops

Now we’re in the 2026 season…

And on to a “better” new rookie QB that’s still dirt cheap…

[Mach1]

And on to a “better” new rookie QB that’s still dirt cheap…

The results will still be the same with Canada running the shit show.

[Mojouw]

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-02/9/17/enhanced/webdr09/original-18977-1455056036-3.jpg?downsize=700%3A%2A&output-quality=auto&output-format=auto

[86WARD]

The results will still be the same with Canada running the shit show.

Correct.

[vasteeler]

So here is why my "thinking" (if you can what the hamsters in my head do thinking)...when Trevor Lawrence was trapped in an awful system behind a bad O-line with no playmakers his rookie year....you could still see things he did that were like..."Oh crap! If they can just build around this guy there is an amazing QB waiting to be unleashed!".

I am struggling to see the same things with KP. Now last years KP....sure. This year's version....looks like the version his worst pre-draft critics were predicting.

I'm going to give him a little more than two games where he had to face two of the top defenses in the league before I make judgment.

[Steeler-in-west]

So here is why my "thinking" (if you can what the hamsters in my head do thinking)...when Trevor Lawrence was trapped in an awful system behind a bad O-line with no playmakers his rookie year....you could still see things he did that were like..."Oh crap! If they can just build around this guy there is an amazing QB waiting to be unleashed!".

I am struggling to see the same things with KP. Now last years KP....sure. This year's version....looks like the version his worst pre-draft critics were predicting.

If you look at the stats even Lawrence wasn’t getting hit as much as KP these last two games. 3 hits a game on average for 2021. Compare that to what KP is going through so far, 11 hits. He’s getting pounded, niners just went after him, looks like the browns copied the niners game plan. No qb can do well in those circumstances. I don’t think Mahomes could do much. This is where Canada has to come in and figure something out, in addition to maybe making a change or two on the line.

[86WARD]

Is it possible that the team, because of the run failure, is being knocked out of their game plan and aren’t prepared to pass in these games? Was there a false sense of security that they thought they improved an offensive line and had a successful run game at the end of last season when in reality, neither was true?

[DesertSteel]

Those wanting to disconnect Kenny from Canada, it’s a nice hypothetical exercise. The reality is that it’s the Steelers way to go down with the ship. The only thing that could change it is of the players start turning on him. We might not be far from that. However, if the team eeks out some ugly wins (which Tomlin is famous for), he could even be retained in 2024. I think I’ll quit watching if that happens.

[cubanstogie]

Those wanting to disconnect Kenny from Canada, it’s a nice hypothetical exercise. The reality is that it’s the Steelers way to go down with the ship. The only thing that could change it is of the players start turning on him. We might not be far from that. However, if the team eeks out some ugly wins (which Tomlin is famous for), he could even be retained in 2024. I think I’ll quit watching if that happens.
I don’t blame Canada for KPs shitty play. I blame KP and O line. 3 yards a carry with First round pick RB and no time to throw is a big part of issue. My hope is getting past 2 of the best D lines and as season goes on o line improves like last year. KP didn’t become shitty in off season. 3rd and 15 is insurmountable so far this year, last night Purdy throws a screen to Debo on 3rd and 15 and he easily picks it up, linemen leading the way. Maybe he isn’t franchise QB but hard to tell with O line sucking. Warren is the better back right now as well. 1-1 with loss to NFC opponent with most talent in league is not the time jump ship. The next few weeks will be telling. Winning ugly is a must a few times this year. Team not dominate enough to do otherwise.

[pczach]

Here's Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs in the super bowl against the Bucs when his OL sucked. Just watch these plays and realize you are watching the best quarterback on the planet playing with an offensive line that gets your entire offense off time.

You tell me if any of this looks familiar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofyDon8EZo&pp=ygUjcGF0cmljayBtYWhvbWVzIHRlcnJpYmxlIHN1cGVyIGJ vd2w%3D

[DesertSteel]

Saw this over at Steeler Nation. It gives a slight pause… at least until Sunday night…

https://i.postimg.cc/8cJfbF3D/3-FC9-BD14-6457-4-A39-96-B9-6-E13-E80-A9989.jpg

[Born2Steel]

Saw this over at Steeler Nation. It gives a slight pause… at least until Sunday night…

https://i.postimg.cc/8cJfbF3D/3-FC9-BD14-6457-4-A39-96-B9-6-E13-E80-A9989.jpg

That is an interesting find.

[86WARD]

Those wanting to disconnect Kenny from Canada, it’s a nice hypothetical exercise. The reality is that it’s the Steelers way to go down with the ship. The only thing that could change it is of the players start turning on him. We might not be far from that. However, if the team eeks out some ugly wins (which Tomlin is famous for), he could even be retained in 2024. I think I’ll quit watching if that happens.

You are 100% correct…there’s always an “excuse” of some sort. If Pickett were to get injured, that would be the best case scenario for Matt Canada and his quest to stay…

[tube517]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDVxnQRQwSM&ab_channel=StateoftheSteelers

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/09/merril-hoge-torches-steelers-receivers-this-is-terrible-this-is-not-pro-football/

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/09/this-is-as-bad-of-a-group-as-there-is-in-the-national-football-league-right-now-merril-hoge-rips-steelers-offensive-line/


A whole lot of ugly.

[pczach]

Here's Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs in the super bowl against the Bucs when his OL sucked. Just watch these plays and realize you are watching the best quarterback on the planet playing with an offensive line that gets your entire offense off time.

You tell me if any of this looks familiar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofyDon8EZo&pp=ygUjcGF0cmljayBtYWhvbWVzIHRlcnJpYmxlIHN1cGVyIGJ vd2w%3D


To followup on what tube posted above and the breakdown by Hoge, this is what I posted yesterday. It is exactly what I am saying about the OL.

Everyone needs to watch the link I posted and you can see how bad offensive line play can destroy an offense and make great players look horrible.

[Mojouw]

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/09/film-room-pre-snap-movement-provides-more-help-than-hurt/

More video evidence of Canada getting WRs open and KP missing them.

There is a TON of that in the video Tube517 posted.

Again....I do not care about Canada losing his job or how he is viewed as an OC. What I do care about is accurate estimates of what the team's current reality is. I'm not sure that swapping OC's is the silver bullet answer. KP just doesn't see stuff properly right now.

[86WARD]

There’s a lot of examples out there but this is a weak example. Plenty of QBs, Hall of Fame ones as well, miss that throw every now and again. Sometimes that’s just an issue of playing live game situations with new players.

[Mojouw]

There’s a lot of examples out there but this is a weak example. Plenty of QBs, Hall of Fame ones as well, miss that throw every now and again. Sometimes that’s just an issue of playing live game situations with new players.

But it’s not one throw here or there. You’re right, EVERYONE does that.

KP is missing almost every throw for 2 straight games. Even his completions are to the wrong shoulder or require a wideout to reach back.

The overwhelming majority of the evidence for the first two games is a QB that has the yips.

[Steeler-in-west]

To followup on what tube posted above and the breakdown by Hoge, this is what I posted yesterday. It is exactly what I am saying about the OL.

Everyone needs to watch the link I posted and you can see how bad offensive line play can destroy an offense and make great players look horrible.

Great breakdown. Unfortunately KP is still going to take a lot of blame for poor line and scheme play from some fans.

[silver & black]

Do you guys think that KP's struggles are just a sophmore slump, or is there more to it? I thought he looked pretty good last year, but I don't follow as close as you real fans...lol.

[Steeler-in-west]

Do you guys think that KP's struggles are just a sophmore slump, or is there more to it? I thought he looked pretty good last year, but I don't follow as close as you real fans...lol.

I’m not a real fan myself, I’m from the west coast and have too much ocean water in my head so I don’t know what I’m talking about, but my guess is that last year teams were mostly sending 4 defenders at KP on pass plays. Now they’re sending 5 or more, and our line is having a hard time protecting KP, so less time for him to process and make reads, can’t set his feet, so you see the results

[cubanstogie]

Do you guys think that KP's struggles are just a sophmore slump, or is there more to it? I thought he looked pretty good last year, but I don't follow as close as you real fans...lol.
2 games in against top D’s too early to call slump. Give him 2-3 more. Steelers O line rated last after 2 weeks from an article I read. 3 yards a carry won’t cut it. This offense has been anemic for 3 plus years and so far no difference this year. KP has missed throws and made some poor decisions but plenty of blame to go around. Excited for Sunday night tho!

[Dwinsgames]

I see many things but if I was to post them it would come off as sour grapes so I wont bother but many breakdowns show many issues , some with play calling , some with line play and some just locking in on targets and poor attempts ...


some of the qb play can be blamed on Canada ....

some of the qb play can be blamed on poor line play ...

but locking in on targets , only looking at half the field , bouncing balls off the turf , throwing balls behind the receivers more often than not , throwing the ball right at a defender .... those things are on the QB ...

Go watch the tape , go watch the breakdowns I am not the only one seeing this stuff .... no sour grapes here either ... he is on the team , the team that I am a fan of so obviously its in my best interest if he succeeds

[Mojouw]

1/3 poor line play
1/3 poor playcalling
1/3 KP

The first two obscure the cause of the last. Also makes his ceiling difficult to assess.

If he lays another egg Sunday night it’s gonna get rough.

[cubanstogie]

1/3 poor line play
1/3 poor playcalling
1/3 KP

The first two obscure the cause of the last. Also makes his ceiling difficult to assess.

If he lays another egg Sunday night it’s gonna get rough.
I agree. And I’ll add a fourth) Steelers offense is vanilla, they’re still playing like a pre season scheme. Kind of goes with poor play calling.

[Mojouw]

I agree. And I’ll add a fourth) Steelers offense is vanilla, they’re still playing like a pre season scheme. Kind of goes with poor play calling.

I’m all over the map on the play calling. It seems very below average for the NFL and far smarter people than me have said so.

But there’s visual evidence of “open” plays not being taken. That’s troubling.

Pzach posted Mahomes SB loss. And it’s bad. His line destroyed his ability to function. BUT that was still one of the most phenomenal displays of quarterbacking I’ve seen in some time. Mahomes almost wizarded his way to winning that game.

Another thing I’ve been thinking about is Lawrence’s terrible rookie year. Even in a disastrous situation, you could see the talent oozing through at points.

Last year, I felt we saw some of that with KP. This year I no longer see it. That’s got me more concerned than any other of the bad things around this offense right now.

It’s early and this could all look silly in a few weeks.

[cubanstogie]

I’m all over the map on the play calling. It seems very below average for the NFL and far smarter people than me have said so.

But there’s visual evidence of “open” plays not being taken. That’s troubling.

Pzach posted Mahomes SB loss. And it’s bad. His line destroyed his ability to function. BUT that was still one of the most phenomenal displays of quarterbacking I’ve seen in some time. Mahomes almost wizarded his way to winning that game.

Another thing I’ve been thinking about is Lawrence’s terrible rookie year. Even in a disastrous situation, you could see the talent oozing through at points.

Last year, I felt we saw some of that with KP. This year I no longer see it. That’s got me more concerned than any other of the bad things around this offense right now.

It’s early and this could all look silly in a few weeks.
I’m really hoping you do! Lol.

[Steeldude]

The results will still be the same with Canada running the shit show.

Which can be said about Tomlin also. As long as he remains the Steelers will be an average football team at best.

[Mojouw]

I saw a star this morning that KP completed -12.5% of his expected completions last week. Only other QBs down in that range? Fields and Wilson.

[Born2Steel]

I saw a star this morning that KP completed -12.5% of his expected completions last week. Only other QBs down in that range? Fields and Wilson.

What are 'expected completions'? This is a new stat for me.

[Mojouw]

What are 'expected completions'? This is a new stat for me.

I’m not entirely sure. But basically it attempts to “measure” what the chance is each pass attempt should be completed.

So if an excellent QB rifles a ball into some ludicrously small window that no one expected him to be able squeeze the ball into, that’s a positive bump. If a bad QB throws at at the feet of an open receiver, that’s a negative.

[86WARD]

[QUOTE=Dwinsgames;836065

but locking in on targets , only looking at half the field , bouncing balls off the turf , throwing balls behind the receivers more often than not , throwing the ball right at a defender .... those things are on the QB ...
[/QUOTE]

But that’s not in the QB if he’s being instructed to do that…which Trubisky confirmed and I believe so did Ben as well as this clip form an article:

“Thinking he’s protecting Pickett by routinely using QB rollouts and simple reads, Canada is actually stunting the rookie’s development. This type of scripted one-read offense will never be good enough to sustain drives and put up points with the best teams in the league.”

It’s just so much wrong with the offense, just like Ben wasn’t, Pickett isn’t the main problem…

[Mojouw]

But that’s not in the QB if he’s being instructed to do that…which Trubisky confirmed and I believe so did Ben as well as this clip form an article:

“Thinking he’s protecting Pickett by routinely using QB rollouts and simple reads, Canada is actually stunting the rookie’s development. This type of scripted one-read offense will never be good enough to sustain drives and put up points with the best teams in the league.”

It’s just so much wrong with the offense, just like Ben wasn’t, Pickett isn’t the main problem…

But it is. That’s the one good thing of the stat.

It just looks at the coverage and throw type on each attempt and says “ok. that’s usually a completed pass”. It doesn’t care about any of the other reads or lack thereof..

KP is missing throws that an “average” NFL QB is expected to routinely make.

That’s not to say the system isn’t trash too. But KP is a highly inaccurate QB for the first 2 weeks of 2023. That’s just a fact. What does it mean and how to fix it is certainly debatable. Not debatable that KP is not accurate right now.

[cubanstogie]

But it is. That’s the one good thing of the stat.

It just looks at the coverage and throw type on each attempt and says “ok. that’s usually a completed pass”. It doesn’t care about any of the other reads or lack thereof..

KP is missing throws that an “average” NFL QB is expected to routinely make.

That’s not to say the system isn’t trash too. But KP is a highly inaccurate QB for the first 2 weeks of 2023. That’s just a fact. What does it mean and how to fix it is certainly debatable. Not debatable that KP is not accurate right now.
True he’s been inaccurate, but it’s looking through a microscope so far. Was he inaccurate last year. Defending Steelers offense doesn’t take a dick lebeau right now. On another note Sam Howell has turned to shit as well. 2 first half pics. Should we write him off as a bust too? I’m playing devils advocate with the KP doubters. I don’t know what’s in future but the kid should be allotted some time. Especially considering no one on roster to take his job.

[Mojouw]

True he’s been inaccurate, but it’s looking through a microscope so far. Was he inaccurate last year. Defending Steelers offense doesn’t take a dick lebeau right now. On another note Sam Howell has turned to shit as well. 2 first half pics. Should we write him off as a bust too? I’m playing devils advocate with the KP doubters. I don’t know what’s in future but the kid should be allotted some time. Especially considering no one on roster to take his job.

Saying he’s inaccurate and playing like trash right now doesn’t mean he’s going to continue playing like that. He’s 15 games into his career.

I’m pushing back on the idea that Fire Canada = awesome offense. Right now, this version of KP, wouldn’t succeed in the most QB friendly system we could imagine.

After the first two weeks, what do you see that KP does well? What is he going to make the foundation of his game?

I thought it was accuracy and processing but he seems to have massively regressed in those two areas specifically.

[Edman]

The Browns are locking down the Titans right now. And we already seen how good San Francisco's Defense is.

Unknowingly, the Steelers may have played what are the two best Defenses in the league and beat one of them. Now I know what you may be saying to that. Then that must mean KP is only good against bad defenses which places a ceiling on him. But he did perform the best against them. The Browns shut down Mega Million Man Joe Burrow. Just an interesting perspective to take.

It doesn't excuse KP's inaccuracy, the poor O-Line play, or Canada's play calling, but it's perhaps time to give the Niners and Browns a little credit. The Browns are really good (On Defense).

[86WARD]

But it is. That’s the one good thing of the stat.

It just looks at the coverage and throw type on each attempt and says “ok. that’s usually a completed pass”. It doesn’t care about any of the other reads or lack thereof..

KP is missing throws that an “average” NFL QB is expected to routinely make.

That’s not to say the system isn’t trash too. But KP is a highly inaccurate QB for the first 2 weeks of 2023. That’s just a fact. What does it mean and how to fix it is certainly debatable. Not debatable that KP is not accurate right now.

That’s not on the QB to throw to a covered receiver on one read. That’s on the system.

Accuracy is not an issue that can’t be fixed and Pickett has proven that already. The system on the other hand…there’s much more history of that being bad.

We may be arguing two different things here and possibly agree on both…lol.

[Mojouw]

That’s not on the QB to throw to a covered receiver on one read. That’s on the system.

Accuracy is not an issue that can’t be fixed and Pickett has proven that already. The system on the other hand…there’s much more history of that being bad.

We may be arguing two different things here and possibly agree on both…lol.

I think we are. I am not talking about covered receivers. I'm not talking about difficult throws into contested areas.

I am talking about OPEN receivers that an average NFL QB is reasonably expected to complete a pass to.

I agree that accuracy can be fixed. But not every QB is able to do that. Some do (say Allen and Hurts) and some never do (Harrington and a host of others).

[86WARD]

I think we are. I am not talking about covered receivers. I'm not talking about difficult throws into contested areas.

I am talking about OPEN receivers that an average NFL QB is reasonably expected to complete a pass to.

I agree that accuracy can be fixed. But not every QB is able to do that. Some do (say Allen and Hurts) and some never do (Harrington and a host of others).

Yes. That is an issue. But Kenny has also proven to be very accurate. I think the problem is he’s throwing with pressure in his face, he’s trying to make things happen too quickly and he was never faced with situational football in the preseason…so this basically is the preseason for the offense. What they did in preseason was glorified practice.

[Steeler-in-west]

I’m not entirely sure. But basically it attempts to “measure” what the chance is each pass attempt should be completed.

So if an excellent QB rifles a ball into some ludicrously small window that no one expected him to be able squeeze the ball into, that’s a positive bump. If a bad QB throws at at the feet of an open receiver, that’s a negative.

That’s a weird stat. You’re comparing easy throws to difficult ones. On target rate I think is a better stat (percent of routine simple passes a QB completes).

[steelcityboyz]

On another note Sam Howell has turned to shit as well. 2 first half pics. Should we write him off as a bust too? .:panic: Oh no!! not the great Sam Howell!

[pczach]

I see many things but if I was to post them it would come off as sour grapes so I wont bother but many breakdowns show many issues , some with play calling , some with line play and some just locking in on targets and poor attempts ...


some of the qb play can be blamed on Canada ....

some of the qb play can be blamed on poor line play ...

but locking in on targets , only looking at half the field , bouncing balls off the turf , throwing balls behind the receivers more often than not , throwing the ball right at a defender .... those things are on the QB ...

Go watch the tape , go watch the breakdowns I am not the only one seeing this stuff .... no sour grapes here either ... he is on the team , the team that I am a fan of so obviously its in my best interest if he succeeds


It looks to me that Pickett is being forced to only get half the field to operate in. In preseason, we saw Kenny looking off safeties to open up an area to throw the ball to. He is no longer doing that.

Either he is a deer in the headlights, and has completely lost his confindence after having a perfect preseason, or he is being limited and forced to only have half the field in play. If it is the former, which I don't believe it is, he better get his head out of his ass and just let it rip. Staring down every throw leads to failure and turnovers.

If he is being limited, which it appears he is to me, shame on the coaching staff. Limiting a quarterback to half the field reads is criminal. It limits where the ball can be thrown, and the QB's eyes draw defenders to the target. If the coaches only have him reading half the field, there is no looking off deep safeties, so he is unable to manipulate the secondary and create space for routes. It also then limits his throws to a compressed part of the field. It would also explain why there are receivers open, but he doesn't throw them the ball, because they are not part of the read progression.

I beleive that some of the stuff going on with the offense is criminal. Canada is a fool, and if Tomlin is behind this dumpster fire of an offense and limiting a young quarterback, he should be in danger of losing his job. It is pitiful to watch, and it is like trying to play with a ball and chain around your ankle with no hope of creating all those chunk plays he is always carrying on about.

You just saw Sam Howell throw nearly half as many interceptions in one game as Pickett has in his entire career to this point. Josh Dobbs couldn't make our roster and looks like a competent NFL quarterback at times on a shitty team. They treated Dotson like he was holding this team back while he wasn't allowing any sacks, and his replacement looks like an imposter of the animal that tossed defensive linemen around in Philly. The coaches need to be better. What they are doing isn't good enough.

We can't pretend that this is what Kenny Pickett is and that he can't improve. There is so much shit going on around him right now while playing against great defenses in his first two games. He needs help, and that help starts with the coaching staff. They are supposed to be a guiding light. They are supposed to be putting players in a position to succeed. They are supposed to be creative in thier schemes and be playing to players strengths. Almost nothing of what I just said is happening with him to this point.

Tomlin going into a press conference and saying the OL was excellent is the epitome of stupidity. Not only is that incorrect, but it shines a spotlight on your quarterback making it seem as if he is the only problem, when anyone that is looking at this objectively knows that is far from true. It was irresponsible of him and made him look like a fool to me.

I have been a defender of Mike Tomlin and have always supported him. For the first time in a long time, I am questioning Mike Tomlin on how he is handling this team and his coaching staff. He needs to be better. Much much better. If all that happens, Kenny Pickett will be much much better.

[Born2Steel]

It looks to me that Pickett is being forced to only get half the field to operate in. In preseason, we saw Kenny looking off safeties to open up an area to throw the ball to. He is no longer doing that.

Either he is a deer in the headlights, and has completely lost his confindence after having a perfect preseason, or he is being limited and forced to only have half the field in play. If it is the former, which I don't believe it is, he better get his head out of his ass and just let it rip. Staring down every throw leads to failure and turnovers.

If he is being limited, which it appears he is to me, shame on the coaching staff. Limiting a quarterback to half the field reads is criminal. It limits where the ball can be thrown, and the QB's eyes draw defenders to the target. If the coaches only have him reading half the field, there is no looking off deep safeties, so he is unable to manipulate the secondary and create space for routes. It also then limits his throws to a compressed part of the field. It would also explain why there are receivers open, but he doesn't throw them the ball, because they are not part of the read progression.

I beleive that some of the stuff going on with the offense is criminal. Canada is a fool, and if Tomlin is behind this dumpster fire of an offense and limiting a young quarterback, he should be in danger of losing his job. It is pitiful to watch, and it is like trying to play with a ball and chain around your ankle with no hope of creating all those chunk plays he is always carrying on about.

You just saw Sam Howell throw nearly half as many interceptions in one game as Pickett has in his entire career to this point. Josh Dobbs couldn't make our roster and looks like a competent NFL quarterback at times on a shitty team. They treated Dotson like he was holding this team back while he wasn't allowing any sacks, and his replacement looks like an imposter of the animal that tossed defensive linemen around in Philly. The coaches need to be better. What they are doing isn't good enough.

We can't pretend that this is what Kenny Pickett is and that he can't improve. There is so much shit going on around him right now while playing against great defenses in his first two games. He needs help, and that help starts with the coaching staff. They are supposed to be a guiding light. They are supposed to be putting players in a position to succeed. They are supposed to be creative in thier schemes and be playing to players strengths. Almost nothing of what I just said is happening with him to this point.

Tomlin going into a press conference and saying the OL was excellent is the epitome of stupidity. Not only is that incorrect, but it shines a spotlight on your quarterback making it seem as if he is the only problem, when anyone that is looking at this objectively knows that is far from true. It was irresponsible of him and made him look like a fool to me.

I have been a defender of Mike Tomlin and have always supported him. For the first time in a long time, I am questioning Mike Tomlin on how he is handling this team and his coaching staff. He needs to be better. Much much better. If all that happens, Kenny Pickett will be much much better.

I feel this too. There is something different going on within the coaching staff right now. The whole 'nothing to see here, move along', attitude is disconcerting at best. Downright criminal at worst.

[Dwinsgames]

relax everything will be ok they promoted Canada after all so he will have a heavier influence on the offense

[Mojouw]

One person has said it was half field reads. Mitch Trubisky. Noted football genius and high level performer. It might’ve been that way specially for Trubisky. That’s how bad that dude stinks.


And it isn’t like one read or half field is some unprecedented NFL phenomenon. It’s done all the time with young, inexperienced, or talent challenged QBs. Daboll was and is doing half field stuff with Jones in New York. They did it for like a season+ with a young Ben Roethlisberger. They’re doing it in Indy and Carolina with rookie QBs to varying degrees. Some of that fancy schmancy stuff in San Francisco is basically A or B to a single side.

I think you guys are way overestimating Canada’s power. He can’t tilt the Earth on its axis. If there’s 4 guys out on routes and one is open, it’s KP job to find him. So what if he goes one read too far? What are they gonna do bench him?

I’m not saying Canada is good. I’m not saying KP is terrible. I’m saying it’s far more complicated than fire Canada and get better. There are fundamental concerns about the QBs ability to execute his position that sit outside of scheme.

Cutting Sullivan out of things is usually the last maneuvers of the damned. Like when a former offensive coordinator turned head coach gives up play calling. Dude usually is one foot out the door.

I figure it starts looking like a functional offense or first Sullivan and then Canada gets the boot. Not sure where they’re going to dig up and OC in NFL Week 7, but it’s starting to feel like they might take a crack at it.

[Dwinsgames]

It looks to me that Pickett is being forced to only get half the field to operate in. In preseason, we saw Kenny looking off safeties to open up an area to throw the ball to. He is no longer doing that.

Either he is a deer in the headlights, and has completely lost his confindence after having a perfect preseason, or he is being limited and forced to only have half the field in play. If it is the former, which I don't believe it is, he better get his head out of his ass and just let it rip. Staring down every throw leads to failure and turnovers.

If he is being limited, which it appears he is to me, shame on the coaching staff. Limiting a quarterback to half the field reads is criminal. It limits where the ball can be thrown, and the QB's eyes draw defenders to the target. If the coaches only have him reading half the field, there is no looking off deep safeties, so he is unable to manipulate the secondary and create space for routes. It also then limits his throws to a compressed part of the field. It would also explain why there are receivers open, but he doesn't throw them the ball, because they are not part of the read progression.

I beleive that some of the stuff going on with the offense is criminal. Canada is a fool, and if Tomlin is behind this dumpster fire of an offense and limiting a young quarterback, he should be in danger of losing his job. It is pitiful to watch, and it is like trying to play with a ball and chain around your ankle with no hope of creating all those chunk plays he is always carrying on about.

You just saw Sam Howell throw nearly half as many interceptions in one game as Pickett has in his entire career to this point. Josh Dobbs couldn't make our roster and looks like a competent NFL quarterback at times on a shitty team. They treated Dotson like he was holding this team back while he wasn't allowing any sacks, and his replacement looks like an imposter of the animal that tossed defensive linemen around in Philly. The coaches need to be better. What they are doing isn't good enough.

We can't pretend that this is what Kenny Pickett is and that he can't improve. There is so much shit going on around him right now while playing against great defenses in his first two games. He needs help, and that help starts with the coaching staff. They are supposed to be a guiding light. They are supposed to be putting players in a position to succeed. They are supposed to be creative in thier schemes and be playing to players strengths. Almost nothing of what I just said is happening with him to this point.

Tomlin going into a press conference and saying the OL was excellent is the epitome of stupidity. Not only is that incorrect, but it shines a spotlight on your quarterback making it seem as if he is the only problem, when anyone that is looking at this objectively knows that is far from true. It was irresponsible of him and made him look like a fool to me.

I have been a defender of Mike Tomlin and have always supported him. For the first time in a long time, I am questioning Mike Tomlin on how he is handling this team and his coaching staff. He needs to be better. Much much better. If all that happens, Kenny Pickett will be much much better.

in fairness in terms of Howell ....
O line in Washington is far worse than ours ... Howell tossed picks but was under duress like nothing Pickett has ever experienced ... sacked 9 times in one game..............

as a side note Pickett has a dozen picks thus far , Howell 4

[86WARD]

It looks to me that Pickett is being forced to only get half the field to operate in. In preseason, we saw Kenny looking off safeties to open up an area to throw the ball to. He is no longer doing that.

Either he is a deer in the headlights, and has completely lost his confindence after having a perfect preseason, or he is being limited and forced to only have half the field in play. If it is the former, which I don't believe it is, he better get his head out of his ass and just let it rip. Staring down every throw leads to failure and turnovers.

If he is being limited, which it appears he is to me, shame on the coaching staff. Limiting a quarterback to half the field reads is criminal. It limits where the ball can be thrown, and the QB's eyes draw defenders to the target. If the coaches only have him reading half the field, there is no looking off deep safeties, so he is unable to manipulate the secondary and create space for routes. It also then limits his throws to a compressed part of the field. It would also explain why there are receivers open, but he doesn't throw them the ball, because they are not part of the read progression.

I beleive that some of the stuff going on with the offense is criminal. Canada is a fool, and if Tomlin is behind this dumpster fire of an offense and limiting a young quarterback, he should be in danger of losing his job. It is pitiful to watch, and it is like trying to play with a ball and chain around your ankle with no hope of creating all those chunk plays he is always carrying on about.

You just saw Sam Howell throw nearly half as many interceptions in one game as Pickett has in his entire career to this point. Josh Dobbs couldn't make our roster and looks like a competent NFL quarterback at times on a shitty team. They treated Dotson like he was holding this team back while he wasn't allowing any sacks, and his replacement looks like an imposter of the animal that tossed defensive linemen around in Philly. The coaches need to be better. What they are doing isn't good enough.

We can't pretend that this is what Kenny Pickett is and that he can't improve. There is so much shit going on around him right now while playing against great defenses in his first two games. He needs help, and that help starts with the coaching staff. They are supposed to be a guiding light. They are supposed to be putting players in a position to succeed. They are supposed to be creative in thier schemes and be playing to players strengths. Almost nothing of what I just said is happening with him to this point.

Tomlin going into a press conference and saying the OL was excellent is the epitome of stupidity. Not only is that incorrect, but it shines a spotlight on your quarterback making it seem as if he is the only problem, when anyone that is looking at this objectively knows that is far from true. It was irresponsible of him and made him look like a fool to me.

I have been a defender of Mike Tomlin and have always supported him. For the first time in a long time, I am questioning Mike Tomlin on how he is handling this team and his coaching staff. He needs to be better. Much much better. If all that happens, Kenny Pickett will be much much better.

You have a very good way of putting my thoughts on “paper”…lol

[pczach]

in fairness in terms of Howell ....
O line in Washington is far worse than ours ... Howell tossed picks but was under duress like nothing Pickett has ever experienced ... sacked 9 times in one game..............

as a side note Pickett has a dozen picks thus far , Howell 4


Howell has 4 career starts and has thrown 4 touchdowns and 6 interceptions.

So Howell's offensive line is an excuse, but Pickett's isn't? Also, Howell taking sacks isn't on him partly? Come on man.

Let's be honest here. The Commanders are 15th in rushing. They are 5th in rushing touchdowns per game.

Steelers are 31st in rushing yards per game. They haven't had a rushing TD this season.

The Commander's defense was rated better going into this week's games. The Steelers have the worst run defense in the NFL.

[Dwinsgames]

Howell has 4 career starts and has thrown 4 touchdowns and 6 interceptions.

So Howell's offensive line is an excuse, but Pickett's isn't? Also, Howell taking sacks isn't on him partly? Come on man.

Let's be honest here. The Commanders are 15th in rushing. They are 5th in rushing touchdowns per game.

Steelers are 31st in rushing yards per game. They haven't had a rushing TD this season.

The Commander's defense was rated better going into this week's games. The Steelers have the worst run defense in the NFL.


where in the quoted post did I say that ? ...come on man

[pczach]

where in the quoted post did I say that ? ...come on man



You said "O line in Washington is far worse than ours". :noidea:

[DuckHodges]

Kenny definitely showed today but he was lucky to not throw a pick 6. For the first time this year though it looks like he’s playing with confidence

[Mojouw]

Kenny definitely showed today but he was lucky to not throw a pick 6. For the first time this year though it looks like he’s playing with confidence

He did look more decisive and quick to act. Vast improvement.

[Edman]

Kenny definitely showed today but he was lucky to not throw a pick 6. For the first time this year though it looks like he’s playing with confidence

He's the type of quarterback where you get him once but not the same way again.

[Dwinsgames]

You said "O line in Washington is far worse than ours". :noidea:

it is ...that is a fact they gave up 9 sacks in 1 game .... when is the last time a steelers O -Line had done that ?

[dislocatedday]

Kenny definitely showed today but he was lucky to not throw a pick 6. For the first time this year though it looks like he’s playing with confidence

I have to think on that almost pick 6 that Pickett expected Heyward to go one way, and then Hayward went another.

[Edman]

1706150253873733783

1706152713350758504

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[BlackAndGold]

Pickett still has work to do but he played well tonight. He was taking a beating early in the game, I was worried he wouldn't make it.

[Steeler-in-west]

Pickett still has work to do but he played well tonight. He was taking a beating early in the game, I was worried he wouldn't make it.

With a better o line and coordinator he’ll be fine. I think he’ll be a good QB for the Steelers, play out his rookie contract get resigned…

he may not be the next Ben or Terry, but I think he’ll show he was worth a first rounder. I’ll gladly say I’m wrong if we’re all still around by then

[pczach]

it is ...that is a fact they gave up 9 sacks in 1 game .... when is the last time a steelers O -Line had done that ?


I pointed out that they are a far better run blocking line than the Steelers going into this week...and it isn't close. They run for more yards and score far more points running the football, which helps the quarterback. Last time I checked, running the football is at least as important as throwing the football and pass protection.

You made the claim that the Commander's offensive line is worse than the Steelers' offensive line, making the point that somehow Howell is overcoming more than Pickett. I pointed out facts about the offensive lines of both teams showing that Washington is ranked better in several offensive categories that are dictated by the offensive line and you then try to make it seem as if I had no business bringing facts about offensive lines into the conversation...when you are the one that brought the offensive lines into the conversation.

Also, Howell has had more time in the pocket compared to Kenny Pickett through 2 games, and has taken far less hits and had better overall protection than Pickett. Howell has had an average of 2.6 seconds to throw. Pickett has only had an average of 2.4 seconds to throw, and has had far more pressures and hits. Howell has more time to throw, gets pressured less, gets hit less, yet takes more sacks than Pickett.

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php

I'm sorry man, but you are being far too hard on Pickett and go out of your way to convince everyone that he sucks. You destroy him whenever he does anything negative and build up other guys. You say you want him to succeed but you pound this kid every chance you get and bristle when anyone brings up facts to make an argument against your opinion of him.

[Mojouw]

I think that KP is quickly becoming a polarizing player. For me, it is because he does an equal amount of good and bad things each week. KP actually provides tangible evidence for whatever you want to focus on.

Take last night. He had a two TD game and avoided critical mistakes and made some pretty throws and was good with his running. But he also missed (at least from my TV seat) multiple plays and bailed early on some clean pockets as well as letting the pass rush bother him early. It is basically an almost equally balanced list of good QB things and not good QB things.

KP is a bizarre QB to me. You can basically see whatever you want to see in him. I can't (right now) think of another QB where you can see such a contrast game in and game out.

[DesertSteel]

I have to think on that almost pick 6 that Pickett expected Heyward to go one way, and then Hayward went another.Heyward definitely blew the route. That one was not on Kenny.

- - - Updated - - -

After a very shaky beginning, Kenny acquitted himself very nicely. If they hadn't stopped playing offense in the 4th quarter I'm sure his stats would have been even better. Steelers are in first place and Kenny has some confidence.

- - - Updated - - -


I think that KP is quickly becoming a polarizing player. For me, it is because he does an equal amount of good and bad things each week. KP actually provides tangible evidence for whatever you want to focus on.

Take last night. He had a two TD game and avoided critical mistakes and made some pretty throws and was good with his running. But he also missed (at least from my TV seat) multiple plays and bailed early on some clean pockets as well as letting the pass rush bother him early. It is basically an almost equally balanced list of good QB things and not good QB things.

KP is a bizarre QB to me. You can basically see whatever you want to see in him. I can't (right now) think of another QB where you can see such a contrast game in and game out.
It's almost as if the quarterback position was hard to play.

[Rotorhead]

I think that KP is quickly becoming a polarizing player. For me, it is because he does an equal amount of good and bad things each week. KP actually provides tangible evidence for whatever you want to focus on.

Take last night. He had a two TD game and avoided critical mistakes and made some pretty throws and was good with his running. But he also missed (at least from my TV seat) multiple plays and bailed early on some clean pockets as well as letting the pass rush bother him early. It is basically an almost equally balanced list of good QB things and not good QB things.

KP is a bizarre QB to me. You can basically see whatever you want to see in him. I can't (right now) think of another QB where you can see such a contrast game in and game out.

Well, he hasn’t even started a full season yet so he is still learning and will have his ups and downs. He was much better this game as was the play calling. Did he miss some reads, yes. Did he hit WRs in stride for big gains, yes. But the points about Crapnada’s calls were evident in the last 2 drives. Second to last, it looked like they gave up and we’re ok with letting the Def close out the game. Last drive, they let the QB make the plays and got that critical 1st before they turtled again. Next week, I expect Crapnada to call a terrible game, cause he was forced to break out of his shell this week and he has never done that 2 weeks in a row.

[86WARD]

Vast improvement. Like I said, every QB is missing “easy” throws and reads every now and again.

[MikeT]

I think that KP is quickly becoming a polarizing player. For me, it is because he does an equal amount of good and bad things each week. KP actually provides tangible evidence for whatever you want to focus on.

Take last night. He had a two TD game and avoided critical mistakes and made some pretty throws and was good with his running. But he also missed (at least from my TV seat) multiple plays and bailed early on some clean pockets as well as letting the pass rush bother him early. It is basically an almost equally balanced list of good QB things and not good QB things.

KP is a bizarre QB to me. You can basically see whatever you want to see in him. I can't (right now) think of another QB where you can see such a contrast game in and game out.

Kirk Cousins maybe?

[Mojouw]

Vast improvement. Like I said, every QB is missing “easy” throws and reads every now and again.
Not a false statement. But...and I have not been watching much of the other young/inexperienced QBs across the league, but KP misses multiple things every single game. And they are often drive killers. It has to get better. He is simply leaving too many yards and points on the field.

I realize you and I will never see eye to eye on this and that is fine. But I think the impulse to say all the good things are KP and the bad things are Canada is a bit too extreme. It is certainly tilted in KP's favor, but he has some serious flaws in his game right now. And he is basically still in his NFL rookie season...so that is understandable.

And I don't want to relitigate the nonsense that was delaying his starting tenure and the fact that he was billed as a finished mental product by the Steelers draft team. But I will say....wouldn't it be nice if this was KP's 19th start instead of his 16th?

- - - Updated - - -


Kirk Cousins maybe?
I thought about that, but figured no one wanted to another Cousins stinks rant from me!

But Cousins. Goff, Mayfield, Tannehill, Fitzpatrick are guys that seem to have a similar polarizing impact.

[steelcityboyz]

I pointed out that they are a far better run blocking line than the Steelers going into this week...and it isn't close. They run for more yards and score far more points running the football, which helps the quarterback. Last time I checked, running the football is at least as important as throwing the football and pass protection.

You made the claim that the Commander's offensive line is worse than the Steelers' offensive line, making the point that somehow Howell is overcoming more than Pickett. I pointed out facts about the offensive lines of both teams showing that Washington is ranked better in several offensive categories that are dictated by the offensive line and you then try to make it seem as if I had no business bringing facts about offensive lines into the conversation...when you are the one that brought the offensive lines into the conversation.

Also, Howell has had more time in the pocket compared to Kenny Pickett through 2 games, and has taken far less hits and had better overall protection than Pickett. Howell has had an average of 2.6 seconds to throw. Pickett has only had an average of 2.4 seconds to throw, and has had far more pressures and hits. Howell has more time to throw, gets pressured less, gets hit less, yet takes more sacks than Pickett.

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php

I'm sorry man, but you are being far too hard on Pickett and go out of your way to convince everyone that he sucks. You destroy him whenever he does anything negative and build up other guys. You say you want him to succeed but you pound this kid every chance you get and bristle when anyone brings up facts to make an argument against your opinion of him.:hatsoff:

[Edman]

I'm sorry man, but you are being far too hard on Pickett and go out of your way to convince everyone that he sucks. You destroy him whenever he does anything negative and build up other guys. You say you want him to succeed but you pound this kid every chance you get and bristle when anyone brings up facts to make an argument against your opinion of him.

I'm Guilty of it too. It sounds like me when I was trashing Ben R. on this board years ago and said we needed to move on from him.

I held on to my opinion and desperately wanted to be seen as right. Any evidence to the contrary of that opinion be damned.

[Steeler-in-west]

I remember all those guys between Terry and Ben,

Mark Malone, Brister, the one who we cannot name, Tomzcak, even slash, I watched them all. Even unmentionable was nothing more than a good game manager except when it really counted.

I think KP has a good combination of mobility and passing that will surpass all those middling QB’s

[pczach]

I'm Guilty of it too. It sounds like me when I was trashing Ben R. on this board years ago and said we needed to move on from him.

I held on to my opinion and desperately wanted to be seen as right. Any evidence to the contrary of that opinion be damned.


I know because you and I had a few conversations about that very subject. :chuckle:

I openly admit that I don't know for a fact the Kenny Pickett is going to be a very good quarterback. I have my feelings about him and the situation he is currently in, but this has to play itself out. The one thing none of us should do is have a preconceived evaluation of him and not be able to objectively judge anything in his performances. I've been wrong about players before, but I'm going to be honest in what I believe he should be able to do on a football field. It's going to take some time to really know.

When you open yourself up and allow yourself to enjoy the process of watching a player develop, the entire experience is much more positive beause half the fun is seeing what a young player can become.

[86WARD]

It's going to take some time to really know.


Exactly and there are so many negative factors surrounding him right now that no one can really judge exactly what he actually is as far as an NFL QB goes. If you have a conclusion already, you’re being ignorant. Depending on your opinion….if you’re wrong, you’re wrong. If you are right, it’s a lucky guess.

[MikeT]

I remember all those guys between Terry and Ben,

Mark Malone, Brister, the one who we cannot name, Tomzcak, even slash, I watched them all. Even unmentionable was nothing more than a good game manager except when it really counted.

I think KP has a good combination of mobility and passing that will surpass all those middling QB’s

Just my .02 cents.

KP has that "it" factor in that he doesn't shy away from the big moments. The 4th quarter comebacks show that. That's something that can not be taught and that you desperately need in a QB. The issue i see so far this year has been the timing and decision making. He has been slow in making his decisions and then the accuracy has been off. All those things can improve so that's good as it can all be taught and improved upon.

What we don't know and none of us do but Kenny and the team and coaches is what he is being told and coached to do. This is a questionable OC to say the least, it could have a impact on what Kenny is doing. It could be a case of a NFL coach trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Then again it could just be all Kenny. hard to say, but he did start the season off playing against two of the best defenses in the league.

Only time will tell for sure. He has shown flashes the question is if he puts it all together at some point.

[Craic]

Just my .02 cents.

KP has that "it" factor in that he doesn't shy away from the big moments. The 4th quarter comebacks show that. That's something that can not be taught and that you desperately need in a QB. The issue i see so far this year has been the timing and decision making. He has been slow in making his decisions and then the accuracy has been off. All those things can improve so that's good as it can all be taught and improved upon.

What we don't know and none of us do but Kenny and the team and coaches is what he is being told and coached to do. This is a questionable OC to say the least, it could have a impact on what Kenny is doing. It could be a case of a NFL coach trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Then again it could just be all Kenny. hard to say, but he did start the season off playing against two of the best defenses in the league.

Only time will tell for sure. He has shown flashes the question is if he puts it all together at some point.

I think it's too soon to tell if he has the "it" factor. We've see QBs all over the league come in and the first year, be able to do some great things. Then, they just disappear. To show that you can move the ball and win late in games in your first year means you have the skills to play in the NFL. To be able to do it your third and fourth year means you have the ability to remain in the NFL. It's nice to see that he can do it, but until he's more consistent and does go three-and-out multiple times in the final quarter of a game (and yes, that also falls to the OC and O line), I'm not ready to say he has ​it.

[El Kabong]

I remember all those guys between Terry and Ben,

Mark Malone, Brister, the one who we cannot name, Tomzcak, even slash, I watched them all. Even unmentionable was nothing more than a good game manager except when it really counted.

Don't forget the immortal Kent Graham and that Miller guy that got a whole one half in Jacksonville before never being seen again.

[DuckHodges]

Don't forget the immortal Kent Graham and that Miller guy that got a whole one half in Jacksonville before never being seen again.

I remember a guy on the steelers.com message boards with the screen name 'grahamtheman'. that didn't last for longer than 2 games :chuckle:

[MikeT]

I think it's too soon to tell if he has the "it" factor. We've see QBs all over the league come in and the first year, be able to do some great things. Then, they just disappear. To show that you can move the ball and win late in games in your first year means you have the skills to play in the NFL. To be able to do it your third and fourth year means you have the ability to remain in the NFL. It's nice to see that he can do it, but until he's more consistent and does go three-and-out multiple times in the final quarter of a game (and yes, that also falls to the OC and O line), I'm not ready to say he has ​it.

Fair Enough

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Pickett is a 2nd year guy that has shown he can make some really good throws into tight windows and on the move, plus he is athletic enough to extend plays and scramble for 1st downs if teams blitz.

He isnt Ben, he isnt Bradshaw, but tell me what past Steelers QB other than those 2 guys that you would rather have at QB in their prime as opposed to Pickett at this point. Maddox? Tomczak? Brister? Batch, Stewart? etc.

I'm curious as to what posters think of who of all the Steeler QB's in the past 50 years would be better options than KP in the short time we have seen him.

[steelcityboyz]

Pickett is a 2nd year guy that has shown he can make some really good throws into tight windows and on the move, plus he is athletic enough to extend plays and scramble for 1st downs if teams blitz.

He isnt Ben, he isnt Bradshaw, but tell me what past Steelers QB other than those 2 guys that you would rather have at QB in their prime as opposed to Pickett at this point. Maddox? Tomczak? Brister? Batch, Stewart? etc.

I'm curious as to what posters think of who of all the Steeler QB's in the past 50 years would be better options than KP in the short time we have seen him.Good post

[Mojouw]

Pickett is a 2nd year guy that has shown he can make some really good throws into tight windows and on the move, plus he is athletic enough to extend plays and scramble for 1st downs if teams blitz.

He isnt Ben, he isnt Bradshaw, but tell me what past Steelers QB other than those 2 guys that you would rather have at QB in their prime as opposed to Pickett at this point. Maddox? Tomczak? Brister? Batch, Stewart? etc.

I'm curious as to what posters think of who of all the Steeler QB's in the past 50 years would be better options than KP in the short time we have seen him.

I'm not sure what the point of the exercise is?

All those guys were not good enough to win SB's in the NFL.

Is KP good enough to never be considered a "bust"? Sure. Is he good enough to help a team make the playoffs? Sure, can't say that he couldn't do that.

But if you want to win SB's, then your QB has to be Ben or Bradshaw good. So if you do not think your current QB is that good, then you better start looking for the next one.

It sounds like you are taking the stance that KP is not as good as Ben or Bradshaw. So less than a SB caliber QB or what many call a "franchise" QB? If that is the case, what do you do after the end of next year? That is when almost all other "franchise" QBs have seen their rookie deals extended. Are you doing that extension? Are you just going to let the rookie deal play out? Pick-up the fifth year option? Or do whatever the Giants did with Jones for reasons most can not understand.

I realize these questions seem a long way off. But they aren't. If you sign KP to the big post year 3 "franchise" extension, then there goes a bunch of your cap space for the rest of the roster. That is going to guide draft picks and significant roster building decisions. If you don't think he is a "franchise" guy, then you maybe let his rookie deal play out. OK. What do you spend the cap savings on? Expensive veteran FAs to try and get a flawed QB over the hump? Or younger players to build a talented core for the next QB? These decisions start basically now for the people planning and scouting in the Steelers FO.

[Edman]

It sounds like you are taking the stance that KP is not as good as Ben or Bradshaw. So less than a SB caliber QB or what many call a "franchise" QB? If that is the case, what do you do after the end of next year? That is when almost all other "franchise" QBs have seen their rookie deals extended. Are you doing that extension? Are you just going to let the rookie deal play out? Pick-up the fifth year option? Or do whatever the Giants did with Jones for reasons most can not understand.

Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and Justin Herbert all got extensions and have no championships between them to show for it. Mega Multi-Million Man Joe Burrow just got a huge payday for leading the Bengals to a Super Bowl loss. Yes, you could argue the case for Burrow's extension, but the Bengals have killed their competitive window unless they become extremely good at drafting after everyone else leaves.

I think KP8 is a guy the Steelers can win with as long as he sticks to what he does best. Does he have flaws? Yes. No quarterback is perfect, but I don't think KP's downsides and limitations are crippling to the Steelers as much as the unmentionables are. Ben R. would hold the ball forever in his early days and take sacks, Bradshaw was a turnover machine, but their upsides made up for it. KP hasn't demonstrated many negatives that ruin his positives. At least not yet.

I'll take that over Trevor Lawrence, the Top pick of 2021 who in year 3 is looking like nowhere near a "Generational" franchise savior for Jacksonville.

[Mojouw]

Not every QB capable of winning a SB is going to actually get to do that. But all those guys you’ve listed have been identified by their teams as having the capability to win a SB. We shall see I guess, but I’d tend to agree with each of those.

I’d rather have Lawrence than KP in any scenario.

In 2 years in a road AFC Championship game, can KP out duel Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, or Burrow? Not “if the defense makes a play” or “the running game helps out” or whatever. Play for play, is KP capable of being that guy?

That’s the ultimate question and it’s an answer that alters franchises.

[Rotorhead]

I don’t think anyone can make a real decision on KP until Crapnada is out. News out today saying he isn’t allowed to make audibles shows how bad the OC is. At some point they have to get rid of Crapnada and see what KP really is. Unfortunately I think we are going to waste another year with him and have to install a new offense next year where we still won’t know what we have before we have to make a decision on KPs next contract.

[Mojouw]

I don’t think anyone can make a real decision on KP until Crapnada is out. News out today saying he isn’t allowed to make audibles shows how bad the OC is. At some point they have to get rid of Crapnada and see what KP really is. Unfortunately I think we are going to waste another year with him and have to install a new offense next year where we still won’t know what we have before we have to make a decision on KPs next contract.

Almost certainly exactly what’s going to happen.

Best case. Steelers and KP mutually agree to push the extension until after Year 4 overall and Year 2 of Not Canada offense.

But I’ve no idea why KP would agree to that.

[El Kabong]

I don’t think anyone can make a real decision on KP until Crapnada is out. News out today saying he isn’t allowed to make audibles shows how bad the OC is. At some point they have to get rid of Crapnada and see what KP really is. Unfortunately I think we are going to waste another year with him and have to install a new offense next year where we still won’t know what we have before we have to make a decision on KPs next contract.
How do we know Kenny can't call audibles?

[Mojouw]

How do we know Kenny can't call audibles?

There’s been scattered “reports” saying he can’t. Tomlin neither confirmed nor denied in a presser. I suspect he Loves the idea of defense thinking they won’t audible.

[Steeler-in-west]

Just my .02 cents.

KP has that "it" factor in that he doesn't shy away from the big moments. The 4th quarter comebacks show that. That's something that can not be taught and that you desperately need in a QB. The issue i see so far this year has been the timing and decision making. He has been slow in making his decisions and then the accuracy has been off. All those things can improve so that's good as it can all be taught and improved upon.

What we don't know and none of us do but Kenny and the team and coaches is what he is being told and coached to do. This is a questionable OC to say the least, it could have a impact on what Kenny is doing. It could be a case of a NFL coach trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Then again it could just be all Kenny. hard to say, but he did start the season off playing against two of the best defenses in the league.

Only time will tell for sure. He has shown flashes the question is if he puts it all together at some point.

agreed, it’s also his accuracy while running and under pressure. He was really threading the needle into tight windows last year. He looked so much more dynamic than all those guys I listed, not to mention Kent Graham lol or even Maddox. I think he just has to learn to handle 5 or more pass rushers. He has to learn where the extra man will come from and audible. Canada just doesn’t seem up to the task of helping KP handle the increased number of pass rushers and speed up his processing. No young QB can do this all on his own, they all need some help, whether it’s adjusting the blocking or teaching the QB to anticipate oncoming blitzes and/or adjusting plays.Canada just still sucks at this point. I can’t believe we have this poor to occasionally mediocre guy in charge of our young QB who we have a lot of hope in.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I'm not sure what the point of the exercise is?

All those guys were not good enough to win SB's in the NFL.

Is KP good enough to never be considered a "bust"? Sure. Is he good enough to help a team make the playoffs? Sure, can't say that he couldn't do that.

But if you want to win SB's, then your QB has to be Ben or Bradshaw good. So if you do not think your current QB is that good, then you better start looking for the next one.

It sounds like you are taking the stance that KP is not as good as Ben or Bradshaw. So less than a SB caliber QB or what many call a "franchise" QB? If that is the case, what do you do after the end of next year? That is when almost all other "franchise" QBs have seen their rookie deals extended. Are you doing that extension? Are you just going to let the rookie deal play out? Pick-up the fifth year option? Or do whatever the Giants did with Jones for reasons most can not understand.

I realize these questions seem a long way off. But they aren't. If you sign KP to the big post year 3 "franchise" extension, then there goes a bunch of your cap space for the rest of the roster. That is going to guide draft picks and significant roster building decisions. If you don't think he is a "franchise" guy, then you maybe let his rookie deal play out. OK. What do you spend the cap savings on? Expensive veteran FAs to try and get a flawed QB over the hump? Or younger players to build a talented core for the next QB? These decisions start basically now for the people planning and scouting in the Steelers FO.

I am saying that from what we have seen in a little over a year, would anybody say that Bubby Brister, Mark Malone, Kordell Stewart, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox, or other QB's looked better than Kenny Pickett? I think all of those players played QB for the Steelers in playoff games, so are we thinking that KP wont achieve that with his level of play?

Or does KP look like he could be the 3rd best Steeler QB in the past 50 years?

[Edman]

In 2 years in a road AFC Championship game, can KP out duel Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, or Burrow? Not “if the defense makes a play” or “the running game helps out” or whatever. Play for play, is KP capable of being that guy?

I don't think KP8 can "out-duel" those guys, but he can win if he plays sound football and makes big throws. Speaking of "if the defense makes play", our buddy Josh Allen not too long ago lost a playoff game because his defense couldn't make a play with 13 seconds remaining. He played near perfect in the game matching Mahomes with outstanding throws, but still lost. KP doesn't need to win a shootout. If KP is stuck in a shootout, then I think the Steelers probably have more pressing needs than Quarterback.

[Steeler-in-west]

I am saying that from what we have seen in a little over a year, would anybody say that Bubby Brister, Mark Malone, Kordell Stewart, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox, or other QB's looked better than Kenny Pickett? I think all of those players played QB for the Steelers in playoff games, so are we thinking that KP wont achieve that with his level of play?

Or does KP look like he could be the 3rd best Steeler QB in the past 50 years?

Just to chime in, based on what we’ve seen so far 3rd best should be the minimum -

[pczach]

I'm not sure what the point of the exercise is?

All those guys were not good enough to win SB's in the NFL.

Is KP good enough to never be considered a "bust"? Sure. Is he good enough to help a team make the playoffs? Sure, can't say that he couldn't do that.

But if you want to win SB's, then your QB has to be Ben or Bradshaw good. So if you do not think your current QB is that good, then you better start looking for the next one.

It sounds like you are taking the stance that KP is not as good as Ben or Bradshaw. So less than a SB caliber QB or what many call a "franchise" QB? If that is the case, what do you do after the end of next year? That is when almost all other "franchise" QBs have seen their rookie deals extended. Are you doing that extension? Are you just going to let the rookie deal play out? Pick-up the fifth year option? Or do whatever the Giants did with Jones for reasons most can not understand.

I realize these questions seem a long way off. But they aren't. If you sign KP to the big post year 3 "franchise" extension, then there goes a bunch of your cap space for the rest of the roster. That is going to guide draft picks and significant roster building decisions. If you don't think he is a "franchise" guy, then you maybe let his rookie deal play out. OK. What do you spend the cap savings on? Expensive veteran FAs to try and get a flawed QB over the hump? Or younger players to build a talented core for the next QB? These decisions start basically now for the people planning and scouting in the Steelers FO.

If the debate is whether Pickett is going to be good enough to win a Super Bowl, the only comparison is whether he is as good or better than Neil O'Donnell.

O'Donnell made it to a Super Bowl, but we all know how that turned out. If Pickett can be a more mobile, more athletic, and better thrower of the ball when moving version of O'Donnell with the clutch gene, he can be good enough to win championships.

[86WARD]

There’s nothing that says the Steelers can’t take 4, even 5 years to evaluate Kenny before giving a contract out at year three.

If there’s hope that Canada is gone after this season and a new coordinator is brought in, the natural evaluation may take a couple steps back. There’s no reason to give ANY QB a huge extension at year three if you are properly evaluating them. The only reason to give a QB that money in year three is to try to get him in the “cheap” but is that worth misevaluating them in the long run? Hasn’t worked for Allen who looks like he’s fading the last two seasons. Hasn’t worked for Lamar Jackson, he’s just not a QB. Only one it has worked for is Patrick Mahomes…and you can’t really compare anyone to him unless you want to do yourself a disservice. It’s him and then the rest.

Zero reason to give Pickett an extension at year three. Not even the littlest of issues or concerns when it comes to that.

[86WARD]

If the debate is whether Pickett is going to be good enough to win a Super Bowl, the only comparison is whether he is as good or better than Neil O'Donnell.

O'Donnell made it to a Super Bowl, but we all know how that turned out. If Pickett can be a more mobile, more athletic, and better thrower of the ball when moving version of O'Donnell with the clutch gene, he can be good enough to win championships.

You could dumb it all the way down to Trent Dilfer. This defense has the potential to be a Super Bowl winning defense…

[Mojouw]

I don't think KP8 can "out-duel" those guys, but he can win if he plays sound football and makes big throws. Speaking of "if the defense makes play", our buddy Josh Allen not too long ago lost a playoff game because his defense couldn't make a play with 13 seconds remaining. He played near perfect in the game matching Mahomes with outstanding throws, but still lost. KP doesn't need to win a shootout. If KP is stuck in a shootout, then I think the Steelers probably have more pressing needs than Quarterback.

Uhhhh.....if Allen wasn't capable of matching Mahomes play for play; then the defense wouldn't have been in position to "not make a play". How can you not see that? If Allen wasn't a QB playing alien like Mahomes, then the Bills lose that game by multiple scores.

If you want your team to advance past the division round of the playoffs on a regular basis, you need a top notch QB. One who can make plays outside of scheme and structure and can elevate the players around him. Full stop. If you have a great run game, and a great defense, that will also be really useful. But if you are dragging a Qb around who is somewhere between 15-25 out of 32, then you have already lost.

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If the debate is whether Pickett is going to be good enough to win a Super Bowl, the only comparison is whether he is as good or better than Neil O'Donnell.

O'Donnell made it to a Super Bowl, but we all know how that turned out. If Pickett can be a more mobile, more athletic, and better thrower of the ball when moving version of O'Donnell with the clutch gene, he can be good enough to win championships.

O'Donnell made a SB run almost 3 decades ago. That is a geologic age ago in the evolution of the NFL. Neil O'donnell wouldn't sniff a SB in the NFL now. I have zero interest in watching Neil O'Donnell 2.0 lead the Steelers to 9-7 and a wild-card round loss each year.

[Mojouw]

I am saying that from what we have seen in a little over a year, would anybody say that Bubby Brister, Mark Malone, Kordell Stewart, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox, or other QB's looked better than Kenny Pickett? I think all of those players played QB for the Steelers in playoff games, so are we thinking that KP wont achieve that with his level of play?

Or does KP look like he could be the 3rd best Steeler QB in the past 50 years?

Ok? Sure. He's the third best QB. Total support in that evaluation. So what?

In my role as "fantasy GM of the Steelers", my goal is to win multiple SBs. Is KP, the third best QB in the history of the franchise, capable of providing that level of performance? Does he have the tools to grow into being that guy? Can he win a shootout on the road with another high-powered AFC team?

I have seen every QB not named Bradshaw play for the Steelers in the "modern era". And I think KP looks to be better than most of them. Likely all of them. I also think that Kirk Cousins is better than most of them and I think Cousins is crap. I think Daniel Jones is better than most of them and that dude sucks. Heck, Jimmy G is better than most of them and he's useless for a team that wants to win playoff games.

QB is harder than ever to play. The demands of the position are greater than they have ever been. The quality and capabilities of guys playing the position is also greater than ever. A "bad" NFL QB from 2023 could get in a time machine and look really good in 2000, 1995, or 1983.

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You could dumb it all the way down to Trent Dilfer. This defense has the potential to be a Super Bowl winning defense…

We have ONE example from 2+ decades ago of this formula working.

Why would a team seek to replicate that? We might as well use the "over the hill gang" as a blueprint. Has the same relevance.

[Mojouw]

A closing thought for this morning. I think this is all a fun discussion and I believe that I think about QB in a weird way, but so be it. My quick look-up and I might have missed some but of all the first round QBs (so just the dudes who had fifth year options) the only three who did not do an extension after year 3 (the first window the CBA allows one in) where Baker, Lamar, and Danny Dimes. All three of those situations ended in major controversy and other unpleasantness.

While I agree that there should be no reason for the Steelers to have to extend KP after year 3, overwhelming precedent says that teams get kinda forced into doing it. Now the Steelers are likely more insulated from those pressures because of how they do business and Rooney is not going to push to do an extension to validate Tomlin or Khan having jobs.

I guess what I am saying is that say this thread ends up being kinda sorta correct and KP is a less mistake prone Neil O'Donnell or, to put it another way, Jimmy G without being a total panicky coward in the face of pressure, would you be excited about this contract? https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/daniel-jones-29041/

Because that is a realistic outcome. As a fan, I would not be excited but I would understand why they did it.

[Mach1]

How do we know Kenny can't call audibles?

From the horses mouth "it's a coaching decision" not to let him audible.

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/09/its-not-a-player-decision-its-a-coaching-decision-mike-tomlin-gives-curious-answer-about-kenny-picketts-pre-snap-freedom-to-audible/

[DesertSteel]

Heck, Jimmy G is better than most of them and he's useless for a team that wants to win playoff games.


Other than the facts. His record in the playoffs is 4-2, and includes 2 trips to the NFCCG and 1 trip to the Super Bowl.

[Edman]

Uhhhh.....if Allen wasn't capable of matching Mahomes play for play; then the defense wouldn't have been in position to "not make a play". How can you not see that? If Allen wasn't a QB playing alien like Mahomes, then the Bills lose that game by multiple scores.

If you want your team to advance past the division round of the playoffs on a regular basis, you need a top notch QB. One who can make plays outside of scheme and structure and can elevate the players around him. Full stop. If you have a great run game, and a great defense, that will also be really useful. But if you are dragging a Qb around who is somewhere between 15-25 out of 32, then you have already lost.

Fair enough. I'm not telling you are wrong. You are right. The Bills do lose that game by multiple scores if Allen doesn't have a game. Allen did put that team in a position to win, and if he just gets one stop from the Defense, it goes down as one of the greatest games of all time. But the fact remains is that he still lost. It just re-enforces my point that the Quarterback, no matter how superhuman he is, other parts of the team still have to step up. Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Matt Ryan, and Phillip Rivers would be swimming in rings otherwise. Kenny Pickett just has to find a way to win regardless of the circumstance. Shootout or low-scoring. Just get it done.

You are right that we need to see Pickett have a game where he puts the team on his back and wills them to a victory. A day when the Defense isn't at its best or T.J Watt goes off. But that is just as highly unsustainable as dragging a mediocre QB to a championship though a run game and Defense. We need find a balance. Pickett's won some low scoring outputs where the Defense holds until he puts together a game winning drive, now let's see him will the Steelers to a win on his own. I hope we see that soon.

[Steeler-in-west]

I’d take no 14 and Kordell Stewart over Daniel Jones. To say our QB’s between Terry and Ben stunk is hyperbole, if you’re going to say stuff like that better back it up with numbers. And I don’t agree at all that it was easier to be a QB back then. QB’s had very little protection and they didn’t pad their stats with short dink and dunk passes.

[Mojouw]

Fair enough. I'm not telling you are wrong. You are right. The Bills do lose that game by multiple scores if Allen doesn't have a game. Allen did put that team in a position to win, and if he just gets one stop from the Defense, it goes down as one of the greatest games of all time. But the fact remains is that he still lost. It just re-enforces my point that the Quarterback, no matter how superhuman he is, other parts of the team still have to step up. Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Matt Ryan, and Phillip Rivers would be swimming in rings otherwise. Kenny Pickett just has to find a way to win regardless of the circumstance. Shootout or low-scoring. Just get it done.

You are right that we need to see Pickett have a game where he puts the team on his back and wills them to a victory. A day when the Defense isn't at its best or T.J Watt goes off. But that is just as highly unsustainable as dragging a mediocre QB to a championship though a run game and Defense. We need find a balance. Pickett's won some low scoring outputs where the Defense holds until he puts together a game winning drive, now let's see him will the Steelers to a win on his own. I hope we see that soon.

Sure! You can't just have the QB do everything and the rest of thea team just be mediocre.

Let's say you have a triangle of QB-Rushing Attack-Defense (oversimplification and I left out special teams) and you can only ever have at most 2 off those going well at the same time. So each leg of the triangle has to be able to cover-up for the one that is performing poorly at any given time.

So your QB has to be capable of winning a game on their own, but he shouldn't be expected to do it every time because, as you correctly pointed out, that isn't sustainable or part of a championship formula. But your QB has to be able to just say "screw it....I've got this" and go do unbelieveable things. He has to be an occassional superhero. And not every guy that is capable of doing that is going to win a SB -- the rest of it might not ever provide that QB the oppportunity but I can only think of a very small number of teams that have ever won a SB without a superhero at QB and much less in recent vintage.

And I swear....before 3000 people post "Joe Flacco!!" - go back and look at the stats. Flacco managed to pull one of the greatest playoff runs of all time for the QB position squarely out of his ass. So I guess the caveat to "Superhero QB" is "Random Heater by an Otherwise JAG QB"?

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Other than the facts. His record in the playoffs is 4-2, and includes 2 trips to the NFCCG and 1 trip to the Super Bowl.

Ok. Then why did his team move moutains to have Jimmy G be "not their QB"? Now reunited with this previous OC and mentor he looks....largely useless? He threw 2 awful picks against the Steelers and 1 kinda sorta okay stuff happens ones, and like 6 hospital passes to Adams.

But, sure, let's count Jimmy G as a standard of QB play to aspire to. That should really line the trophy case.

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I’d take no 14 and Kordell Stewart over Daniel Jones. To say our QB’s between Terry and Ben stunk is hyperbole, if you’re going to say stuff like that better back it up with numbers. And I don’t agree at all that it was easier to be a QB back then. QB’s had very little protection and they didn’t pad their stats with short dink and dunk passes.

I mean is there that much difference between these two career stat lines?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JoneDa05.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/ODonNe00.htm

[El Kabong]

From the horses mouth "it's a coaching decision" not to let him audible.

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/09/its-not-a-player-decision-its-a-coaching-decision-mike-tomlin-gives-curious-answer-about-kenny-picketts-pre-snap-freedom-to-audible/
I have no idea what Tomlin is trying to say here. It depends on the opponent whether Kenny can call audibles? It depends on the game situation whether they let him call audibles?

Apparently the people at Steeler Depot are jagoffs who won't let you copy and paste from their articles, but the second to last paragraph of that article and the article they link to in that paragraph seem to indicate Kenny can call audibles.

[86WARD]

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We have ONE example from 2+ decades ago of this formula working.

Why would a team seek to replicate that? We might as well use the "over the hill gang" as a blueprint. Has the same relevance.

Not really…

Joe Namath
Jim plunkett (x2)
Jim McMahon
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
Mark Rypien
Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Joe Flacco
Nick Foles

All QBs who are meh or worse. Around 20% of Super Bowls were won by average to below average guys and you may be able to throw Simms, Stafford, Theismann in there…even Troy Aikman in that as he wasn’t the greatest “QB” either.

[86WARD]

I have no idea what Tomlin is trying to say here. It depends on the opponent whether Kenny can call audibles? It depends on the game situation whether they let him call audibles?

Apparently the people at Steeler Depot are jagoffs who won't let you copy and paste from their articles, but the second to last paragraph of that article and the article they link to in that paragraph seem to indicate Kenny can call audibles.

And yet there are still questions about just how much authority he has, particularly in-game on the field. Asked yesterday about some runs against fronts with five down linemen the past two weeks and Pickett's freedom to check out of those calls, head coach Mike Tomlin gave an answer that I think can be fairly described as interesting.

"It depends on week to week. Why would we have Kenny do it when we know there's five down linemen in the game?', he said, via the team's website, which seems to indicate a preference here that they run the play called because they know the variables. "So it's not a player decision, it's a coaching decision".

"You see the defensive personnel that comes onto the field as you're making calls",
, Tomlin continued.
"Different plans week to week on whether we choose to run pass check or run check or just to run it, to be quite honest with you. But I promise you it's not haphazard. There's always an agenda there".

Truth be told, I'm not entirely sure why there might be different plans on a weekly basis for how much authority Pickett has to call audibles and change the play at the line. I have to assume he is referring to the amount of play calls that have built-in checks, because generally, I would think that authority varies more by in-game scenario than by opponent.

Part of the problem may be the writer as he is the worst one on that site. None of them come up with a creative story. Good at times at breaking down a play, not so good at being writers.

[Mojouw]

Not really…

Joe Namath
Jim plunkett (x2)
Jim McMahon
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
Mark Rypien
Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Joe Flacco
Nick Foles

All QBs who are meh or worse. Around 20% of Super Bowls were won by average to below average guys and you may be able to throw Simms, Stafford, Theismann in there…even Troy Aikman in that as he wasn’t the greatest “QB” either.

A third of that list is closer to leather helmets than today.

All but one happened an age ago.

And two (Flacco and Foles) played out of their minds and caught the heater of all playoff heaters.

And NFL teams are showing us they understand that their are playoff winning QBs and regular season winning QBs with QB movement each offseason. Stafford for Goff. All the Niners QBs. The Titans have drafted TWO to replace Tannehill. The list goes on.

[MikeT]

Not every QB capable of winning a SB is going to actually get to do that. But all those guys you’ve listed have been identified by their teams as having the capability to win a SB. We shall see I guess, but I’d tend to agree with each of those.

I’d rather have Lawrence than KP in any scenario.

In 2 years in a road AFC Championship game, can KP out duel Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, or Burrow? Not “if the defense makes a play” or “the running game helps out” or whatever. Play for play, is KP capable of being that guy?

That’s the ultimate question and it’s an answer that alters franchises.

Don't think that's a fair assessment when all those QB's either have a running game that's good or defense that is good or both.

A better question to ask is could any of those QB's win a super bowl on this team as it stands now with the players and the coaching and the schemes that are currently being used. Then you ask or would want to see what can Kenny do if he was on one of those other teams with their players and coaching and schemes. All that comes into play. Brady who is one of the best QB's ever (whether you hate him or not) probably wouldn't succeed on this team with this offense and everything else that goes into it. Its a different story if he or Mahommes comes in here and is allowed to change things and do it their way but Kenny has to work within the confines of the scheme and what he is told to do. Keep in mind this offensive coordinator wouldn't even allow Ben ( a two time super bowl winner and HOF QB to audible).

Kenny has flaws and I'm not entirely sold on him yet. But I also don't believe any QB past present or future would have the same luck they had if they have to deal with Canada and this coaching staff. So therefore its entirely hard to gauge what KP can do or be in this league in my mind.

[86WARD]

A third of that list is closer to leather helmets than today.

All but one happened an age ago.

And two (Flacco and Foles) played out of their minds and caught the heater of all playoff heaters.

And NFL teams are showing us they understand that their are playoff winning QBs and regular season winning QBs with QB movement each offseason. Stafford for Goff. All the Niners QBs. The Titans have drafted TWO to replace Tannehill. The list goes on.

That’s just a bunch of excuses to try to justify that it hasn’t happened many times. Of course it’s not going to happen every year but it does happen about 1/5 of the time.

[DesertSteel]

Ok. Then why did his team move moutains to have Jimmy G be "not their QB"? Now reunited with this previous OC and mentor he looks....largely useless? He threw 2 awful picks against the Steelers and 1 kinda sorta okay stuff happens ones, and like 6 hospital passes to Adams.

But, sure, let's count Jimmy G as a standard of QB play to aspire to. That should really line the trophy case.

I’m not saying he’s a good quarterback. I’m just saying your statement was inaccurate.

[Dwinsgames]

I am saying that from what we have seen in a little over a year, would anybody say that Bubby Brister, Mark Malone, Kordell Stewart, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox, or other QB's looked better than Kenny Pickett? I think all of those players played QB for the Steelers in playoff games, so are we thinking that KP wont achieve that with his level of play?

Or does KP look like he could be the 3rd best Steeler QB in the past 50 years?

you forgot Neil O'Donnell

[vasteeler]

From what I see going From Ben to Kenny so far is a lot better than going from Terry to Mark. Give it some time.

[pczach]

From what I see going From Ben to Kenny so far is a lot better than going from Terry to Mark. Give it some time.


Yeah, I mean I don't understand why Kenny Pickett is already done in the minds of many. He hasn't even started the equivalent of a full season yet. He is playing in a bad offensive scheme that makes playing even harder than it needs to be. Mike Tomlin/Canada apparently doesn't give Pickett the option to audible out of plays, so he is often stuck in dead plays that create longer down and distance situations.

This whole thing needs to be sorted out. If Kenny Pickett is not able to audible and is handing off to a stacked defensive set so the back gets stoned for no gain or loses a yard or two, then is expected to pick up longer yardages for first downs is criminal by this coaching staff. Tomlin basically said as much while doing his usual dance around the subject diatribe the other day. Doing that to your quarterback ties the hands of the offense.

[Dwinsgames]

god forbid if I say anything negative about his play so I will keep my mouth shut and let everyone else pile on while I nod and say I told you so

[86WARD]

god forbid if I say anything negative about his play so I will keep my mouth shut and let everyone else pile on while I nod and say I told you so

But you don’t know because you don’t have a good evaluation. Lol.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

god forbid if I say anything negative about his play so I will keep my mouth shut and let everyone else pile on while I nod and say I told you so Howell Dear You!

[BlackAndGold]

Spinning in the pocket and running into pressure, that stuff does not work in the NFL. It's been a problem and now he got himself hurt.

[86WARD]

It’s what happens when you have shitty plays and no one knows what they are doing out there.

[steelcityboyz]

god forbid if I say anything negative about his play so I will keep my mouth shut and let everyone else pile on while I nod and say I told you so:yawn:

[Mojouw]

Spinning in the pocket and running into pressure, that stuff does not work in the NFL. It's been a problem and now he got himself hurt.

That’s how he put up big plays to Addison his one good year at Pitt.

[Steeldude]

god forbid if I say anything negative about his play so I will keep my mouth shut and let everyone else pile on while I nod and say I told you so

The overly emotional, rah-rah drones will always be upset. Funny how they are changing their tune on KP now. The Steelers would still have Mendenhall if they had their way.

[Rotorhead]

I don’t think ppl don’t want others to criticize KP, but blaming him for all the teams problems gets old. Hell, blaming him for the offense is too much given Crapnada’s garbage has spanned 4 different QBs. Does me miss throws, yep. Does he leave the pocket too soon this season, yep. Has he started for a full year yet, nope. Does he have the worst OC that ever called a game, yep. So constantly blaming a 1st year starter for all the woes is just dumb. Does he have skills needed to be a starter, remains to be seen. But we have seen him make all the throws, thread the ball in tight places, make plays with his legs, yes to all that.

[SteelMember]

Kenny hasn't been good, but he's getting his ass kicked back there.

Play designs are atrocious... North Hills HS is more innovative.

[Steeldude]

I don’t think ppl don’t want others to criticize KP, but blaming him for all the teams problems gets old. Hell, blaming him for the offense is too much given Crapnada’s garbage has spanned 4 different QBs. Does me miss throws, yep. Does he leave the pocket too soon this season, yep. Has he started for a full year yet, nope. Does he have the worst OC that ever called a game, yep. So constantly blaming a 1st year starter for all the woes is just dumb. Does he have skills needed to be a starter, remains to be seen. But we have seen him make all the throws, thread the ball in tight places, make plays with his legs, yes to all that.

I do not really blame much of anything on KP. I blame Tomlin

[steelcityboyz]

it doesn't really matter much now.but if some of you think kenny looks like ass playing qb wait until you get your fill of mason and mitch. me? i'll take kp any day. :shrug:

[BlackAndGold]

Per Rapoport: Pickett has a bone bruise in his knee and the door is open for him to play this week, but the team may rest him as there is a bye week after the Ravens game. KP is also dealing with a muscle strain

[86WARD]

Per Rapoport: Pickett has a bone bruise in his knee and the door is open for him to play this week, but the team may rest him as there is a bye week after the Ravens game. KP is also dealing with a muscle strain

Perfect excuse for Tomlin to “bench him” and get no blood on his hands…

[oneforthetoe]

Sit him and let him heel. Maybe it will help. Canada is the biggest problem but Kenny looks shell shocked. He might have thought preseason was the way things might go for the year. Maybe two weeks of will help. Let Mitch take the bruises this week.

[Edman]

Sit him and let him heel. Maybe it will help. Canada is the biggest problem but Kenny looks shell shocked. He might have thought preseason was the way things might go for the year. Maybe two weeks of will help. Let Mitch take the bruises this week.

I have to agree. Kenny (or anyone else for that matter) stands no chance in this putrid offense. Best to minimize the damage before next season when Canada is gone.

[86WARD]

I have to agree. Kenny (or anyone else for that matter) stands no chance in this putrid offense. Best to minimize the damage before next season when Canada is gone.

That’s one reason (in theory at the time) it was good for Trubisky to start last year…let him endure the pain that is Canada and then let Lenny come in fresh with a new guy…nope…

[pczach]

That’s one reason (in theory at the time) it was good for Trubisky to start last year…let him endure the pain that is Canada and then let Lenny come in fresh with a new guy…nope…


Who's Lenny? :flap:

[86WARD]

Who's Lenny? :flap:

Hopefully the next Terry Bradshaw!!!

[oneforthetoe]

Who's Lenny? :flap:


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/fd/eb/aefdebf9437774c1d5545f4059b0a208.jpg


I'll take him.

[tube517]

1709343149858992598

[86WARD]

1709343149858992598

So from that, it doesn’t necessarily look like that falls on Kenny.

[SteelMember]

... yikes

[Edman]

Kenny Pickett struggled a bit today but looked like his old self late in the game, but it was only because he started to audible. He looked much more confident. The GW touchdown pass was an audible, not the actual play call.

This is why I cannot say he or any individual player on the team is bad just yet. The offense and playcalling in of itself is just bad.

[Born2Steel]

Kenny Pickett struggled a bit today but looked like his old self late in the game, but it was only because he started to audible. He looked much more confident. The GW touchdown pass was an audible, not the actual play call.

This is why I cannot say he or any individual player on the team is bad just yet. The offense and playcalling in of itself is just bad.

I'm pretty sure you meant GP Touchdown. An audible, but not really changing the play. This was a part of the game plan.

https://steelersnow.com/steelers-kenny-pickett-george-pickens-break-down-game-winning-td-connection/

[86WARD]

I'm pretty sure you meant GP Touchdown. An audible, but not really changing the play. This was a part of the game plan.

https://steelersnow.com/steelers-kenny-pickett-george-pickens-break-down-game-winning-td-connection/

But all audibles are in the game plan. He gets credit for recognizing and getting out of canadas call. That play and audible idea has been in the playbook since, at least, 2004. That was Bens favorite audible…by admission and why you’d see it on 3rd and short.

[Dwinsgames]

ok if the audibles are on the table for all calls then I am not so sure why everyone is all excited about getting ONE right through 5 games .... this offense blows chunks and if the QB can audible I would be interested in knowing why its taken this long to be successful with one ...

why isn't it happening all the time if Canada is so horrid ( and he is horrid )

I honestly think a ton of guessing is going on about all this ... I wouldn't be surprised if audibles are off the table ( or anyone with half a brain would be utilizing it far more often and KP8 doesn't come off as a stupid man so I would guess he is being handcuffed in terms of having permission to audible ....

According to Pickens the play call was to get him on that TD pass coming out of the huddle so it was not an audible unless Pickens is lying ?

so lets not be giving Pickett credit for audibling us to Victory unless we are gonna dog him for not doing so far more often ...

again for clarification I do not believe he has been given the keys to the car and we just seen a look of Canada in disbelief that his play call worked and not one of Canada being mad that KP8 over ruled him on the field ....

its well documented my feelings on Pickett but I am unwilling to credit him for this without discrediting him far more for all the other games full of bad calls .. I do not think he has the authority BUT perhaps he should have ......


after all he is on the field he can feel the game unfold ... Canada isn't even on the sidelines , he is up in that booth where he doesn't have to hear the crowd cheer for his head ....Canada sucks with 1000000000% certainty and the verdict is still out on KP8 even though some of us have our thoughts preconceived or otherwise ....

[Mojouw]

I can’t see any of the linked stuff.

But what’s the ruckus?

KP read cover zero, changed the protection, and threw a go ball to his best WR?

I’m pretty sure the local HS team does that. Now, I admit it’s a step up for Team Canada but falls short of a watershed moment.

[Rotorhead]

I can’t see any of the linked stuff.

But what’s the ruckus?

KP read cover zero, changed the protection, and threw a go ball to his best WR?

I’m pretty sure the local HS team does that. Now, I admit it’s a step up for Team Canada but falls short of a watershed moment.

The ruckus is KP said he audibled that play and that wasn’t necessarily the play call, GP says that was the call from the start so there is confusion whether KP can make audibles with all the different reports that he can/can’t audible and the look on Crapnada’s face when that play saved his job and he didn’t appear happy or was shocked that it worked.

[Mojouw]

The ruckus is KP said he audibled that play and that wasn’t necessarily the play call, GP says that was the call from the start so there is confusion whether KP can make audibles with all the different reports that he can/can’t audible and the look on Crapnada’s face when that play saved his job and he didn’t appear happy or was shocked that it worked.

Ok. So nonsense on the internet? Got it :)

From the things I read, it is pretty clear what happened. KP slid the protection at the line and then threw over the coverage to his best WR who went out and got the ball.

Probably their standard response to all the safeties being under 5 yards from the line of scrimmage!

[Dwinsgames]

ok wait ...


after further review I BELIEVE Pickett did in fact audible ...

turn sound on ...... RANDY RANDY RANDY is loud and clear to me ......

1711137940598919661


now my question becomes why hasn't he done this more to bail the team out? or is this the beginning of what is to come? I guess only time will tell

[tube517]

ok wait ...


after further review I BELIEVE Pickett did in fact audible ...

turn sound on ...... RANDY RANDY RANDY is loud and clear to me ......

1711137940598919661


now my question becomes why hasn't he done this more to bail the team out? or is this the beginning of what is to come? I guess only time will tell

I think he audibled and has been held back from doing so, which I think is crazy. Just my opinion but he needs to do it more or be like Ben did w/haley and say F it and do it.

[Mach1]

The look on Canadas face was like what the hell just happened, I didn't call that

[pczach]

The look on Canadas face was like what the hell just happened, I didn't call that



Clearly, Canada had a moment about something....and it wasn't a good moment.

There isn't an OC on planet earth that would respond to a big play that resulted in a game-winning touchdown the way Matt Canada did if the OC called that play and it was run as called. Not a fucking chance. He would be going crazy celebrating.

Something happened there. Someone overruled his authority. Either Tomlin made the call. Or Tomlin let Pickett make the call or audible, or his replacement OC made that call.

I don't believe Canada had anything to do with that play or that outcome.

[Buckinnuts]

a few weeks ago they asked canada about the play calling and he said the Kenny can change the play if he wants...wish I can find the article...agree the response he gave was not from his own call

[Voice of Reason]

Hi, I'm a newbie here who's really enjoying the conversation. I'm really impressed with the quality of the discussion and the amount of thought and research that goes into the analysis from both sides of the debate. I would like to jump in and add my thoughts on a couple of points.

First, I agree with the school of thought that says it is way too early for anyone to be drawing any definite conclusions about Kenny Pickett. I've been watching the NFL for a long time and over the years I've seen a ton of players (not just QB's) who started off slowly and looked like they were going to be busts, but turned out to be good and in some cases excellent players. I remember Troy Polamalu being considered a bust after his rookie season. When Tunch Ilkin started out he looked terrible. Regarding QB's, Brett Favre looked so bad in his first NFL season with the Atlanta Falcons that they gave up on him, much to the delight of Green Bay. Terry Bradshaw did so poorly when he started out that he was still being benched for a while in 1974, his fifth season in the league. I shudder to think what some of the people today who are giving up on Kenny after one year would have been saying about that. Sometimes a little patience with a young player who is struggling goes a long way.

Regarding Kenny, my theory is that his problems this year are not so much problems with ability, but with confidence. When we opened up with San Francisco this year we knew the 49ers were good, but nobody with the Steelers, including Tomlin and Kenny, realized just how good they were, especially on defense. So when Kenny and the Steelers got their heads handed to them, IMO it was a great blow to Kenny's confidence. I can tell when a QB is getting rattled, and for the first time in his NFL career Kenny really got rattled that day. He started doing all the things that rattled QB's do like bailing out of the pocket too quickly, not seeing open receivers, and throwing inaccurate passes. Exactly the things that people are correctly criticizing him for now. But for the most part he hadn't done those things last year. One of the things I liked most about him last year was that he was cool and collected, didn't seem overwhelmed, and made mostly good decisions. Which showed that when he's not rattled or nervous, he has the ability to do that.

This actually bodes well for his future. If a player is failing because he doesn't have the ability, there's nothing that can be done. But if he does have the ability, and his current failure is due to a temporary lack of confidence, that can be fixed. If Kenny has a game or two where things start going right, that lost confidence can be restored. The process may already be starting. During that last drive against the Ravens, Kenny started looking like the Kenny of 2022 for the first time this year. If he can build on that, and get comfortable again as his NFL experience increases, a significant improvement in his play is quite possible.

[pczach]

I can't get these two Twitter post to whow here, so I just linked them. The first link shows where Kenny Pickett faces the most perfectly covered plays, which means he faces the most plays where no receivers are open.


https://steelersdepot.com/2023/10/one-stat-shows-the-steelers-pass-game-is-making-life-hard-on-kenny-pickett/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


The second is explaining Brock Purdy and his success, but also shows how horrible the system is that Pickett is playing in. There simply aren't receivers getting open.

https://twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1712212124141809820?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1712212124141809820%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

[Dwinsgames]

come on man Favre ??? he threw FOUR passes in Atlanta as a rookie played in 2 games started NONE ....

teams do not "give up" on a QB after 4 passes ....

Fact is Favre was a 2nd round pick of the Falcon who had Starter Chris Miller and Billy Joe Tolliver on the roster already and the Packers offered a 1st round pick for him and Favre was 3rd on the depth chart his rookie year

and the Falcons had Tolliver who was a 2nd round pick from a few years prior so there was hope for him yet ....

so lets temper some of this a bit as accuracy is sorta important

[Mojouw]

It was more that Favre was an alcoholic and a pill popper and Glanville knew it.

Favre has even admitted this.

Kind of like how folks get on the Eagles for letting Carter go. Problem was that in Philly Carter was a massive coke head.

[lipps83]

I can't get these two Twitter post to whow here, so I just linked them. The first link shows where Kenny Pickett faces the most perfectly covered plays, which means he faces the most plays where no receivers are open.


https://steelersdepot.com/2023/10/one-stat-shows-the-steelers-pass-game-is-making-life-hard-on-kenny-pickett/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


IIRC, there was a post in a thread last year that showed the total compiled routes of each of the Steelers receivers over so many games, and they were some of the the most basic in the league in comparison.

[Voice of Reason]

come on man Favre ??? he threw FOUR passes in Atlanta as a rookie played in 2 games started NONE ....

teams do not "give up" on a QB after 4 passes ....

Fact is Favre was a 2nd round pick of the Falcon who had Starter Chris Miller and Billy Joe Tolliver on the roster already and the Packers offered a 1st round pick for him and Favre was 3rd on the depth chart his rookie year

and the Falcons had Tolliver who was a 2nd round pick from a few years prior so there was hope for him yet ....

so lets temper some of this a bit as accuracy is sorta important

You're actually making my point. Why did he throw only four passes? Why was he third on the depth chart behind NFL greats like Chris Miller and Billy Joe Tolliver? Because the Falcons, who saw him every day in training camp and at practice during the season, were not impressed by him and made a hasty decision based on his struggles during his rookie year. Which is basically what I said.

[Voice of Reason]

It was more that Favre was an alcoholic and a pill popper and Glanville knew it.
Did Green Bay know it when they traded for him? If not, then they certainly would have found out once he got there, don't you think? But instead of giving up on him and trading him away, they gave him a chance and were rewarded with a great quarterback. It was Glanville and the Falcons who made the mistake.

[Born2Steel]

If we could all split a dollar for every bone-headed mistake Jerry Glanville made as a coach, we could all still buy a full tank of gas. That guy was and remains an idiot.

[pczach]

IIRC, there was a post in a thread last year that showed the total compiled routes of each of the Steelers receivers over so many games, and they were some of the the most basic in the league in comparison.


Sounds about right.

The more you dig and see stats, the more you realize how bad this offensive system really is.....and I have hated Canada's offense from the very beginning. It's just when you see it in stats or on a chart, it is so shockingly bad that I don't understand how others can't see it.

[86WARD]

Did Green Bay know it when they traded for him? If not, then they certainly would have found out once he got there, don't you think? But instead of giving up on him and trading him away, they gave him a chance and were rewarded with a great quarterback. It was Glanville and the Falcons who made the mistake.

The Packers did find out he was a pill popper when he was in Green Bay. 1995.

[Dwinsgames]

You're actually making my point. Why did he throw only four passes? Why was he third on the depth chart behind NFL greats like Chris Miller and Billy Joe Tolliver? Because the Falcons, who saw him every day in training camp and at practice during the season, were not impressed by him and made a hasty decision based on his struggles during his rookie year. Which is basically what I said.

sorry I dont see it that way at all ....

I see it as coming from an era that rookie QBs sat 2-4 years in most cases ....

the Falcons had a 2nd round pick in his 3rd year in Tolliver who they likely had belief in still ( because teams dont give up on QBs drafted highly before that 4 year period )

Their sits Favre out of shape , drunk , high or whatever 3rd on the depth chart also because of those in front of him and how the League worked in the early 90s ...

THAT is why he got 4 snaps along comes the Packers and offers them MORE than what they paid for him in draft stock and they took it ...Look I love my Trike but if you want to pay me more than what I paid for it and I got to enjoy it for a year then by all means go grab the cash and stop on by

[Mojouw]

Did Green Bay know it when they traded for him? If not, then they certainly would have found out once he got there, don't you think? But instead of giving up on him and trading him away, they gave him a chance and were rewarded with a great quarterback. It was Glanville and the Falcons who made the mistake.

By all accounts the trade scared Favre straight for a bit. But his eventual addiction to pills and partying with Chumura and underage girls got him booted out of Green Bay as well.

I love Favre the QB. One of my all time favorites. But he was a total dirtball.

I just don’t think Favre is a good comparison for KP. Favre had more talent in his little finger than KP has overall on his best day.

A better set of comps would be Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, or maybe Steve DeBerg and Tommy Maddox.

https://www.sportscasting.com/atlanta-falcons-coach-claims-traded-brett-favre-green-bay-packers-sober-him-up/

[86WARD]

By all accounts the trade scared Favre straight for a bit. But his eventual addiction to pills and partying with Chumura and underage girls got him booted out of Green Bay as well.

I love Favre the QB. One of my all time favorites. But he was a total dirtball.

I just don’t think Favre is a good comparison for KP. Favre had more talent in his little finger than KP has overall on his best day.

A better set of comps would be Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, or maybe Steve DeBerg and Tommy Maddox.

https://www.sportscasting.com/atlanta-falcons-coach-claims-traded-brett-favre-green-bay-packers-sober-him-up/

That set of comps isn't even comparable with each other. If Pickett turns out like Gannon and wins a Super Bowl, I'm good with that. Pick well spent.

[Mojouw]

That set of comps isn't even comparable with each other. If Pickett turns out like Gannon and wins a Super Bowl, I'm good with that. Pick well spent.

Why not?

They’re all guys that had to sit a bunch to get their shot. And they all had flaws in their game that kept them out of the top tier conversation in their era.

Certainly better comps for KP than two HOF guys in Favre and Bradshaw.

[Born2Steel]

I think TommyGun is a fair comp. While he was here he played well enough without that WOW factor. Big BUT here is that KP is just starting his career. Kenny started his first game at 1-3, correct? He went another 1-3 before winning 7 of the last 9 games. I don’t know of anyone’s rookie campaign that matches that. The question you have to ask with a young QB is is he doing things to lose games?

[Dwinsgames]

I think TommyGun is a fair comp. While he was here he played well enough without that WOW factor. Big BUT here is that KP is just starting his career. Kenny started his first game at 1-3, correct? He went another 1-3 before winning 7 of the last 9 games. I don’t know of anyone’s rookie campaign that matches that. The question you have to ask with a young QB is is he doing things to lose games?

what you also have to consider is KP didnt come to a team that was 3-13 the year before either , it wasn't void of talent like most 1st round QBs go to esp first QB off the board ...

so while he won some games this team also won 8 games or so with Mason and the Duck splitting starts , one of which is out of the league and the other is the 3rd string emergency QB

[Born2Steel]

what you also have to consider is KP didnt come to a team that was 3-13 the year before either , it wasn't void of talent like most 1st round QBs go to esp first QB off the board ...

so while he won some games this team also won 8 games or so with Mason and the Duck splitting starts , one of which is out of the league and the other is the 3rd string emergency QB

I don't see what your point here is. We were discussing NFL comps for KP as a QB. Are you saying KP compares to Maddox, Mason, or Duck? Or all 3? Or none of the above?

- - - Updated - - -

The comp with Maddox is close I think. Both have played well enough that they are definitely the QB1. Neither has played so well I think of them as franchise QB level. Maddox was a second chance guy though so already had experience. KP is wait and see still.

[Dwinsgames]

I don't see what your point here is. We were discussing NFL comps for KP as a QB. Are you saying KP compares to Maddox, Mason, or Duck? Or all 3? Or none of the above?

- - - Updated - - -

The comp with Maddox is close I think. Both have played well enough that they are definitely the QB1. Neither has played so well I think of them as franchise QB level. Maddox was a second chance guy though so already had experience. KP is wait and see still.

I was speaking to what you posted about his record as a starter ... I didnt think it was all that complicated lol

but Mason and Duck combined for about the same Record KP managed with a similar roster quality in the same division so there is that make of it what you will

[86WARD]

Why not?

They’re all guys that had to sit a bunch to get their shot. And they all had flaws in their game that kept them out of the top tier conversation in their era.

Certainly better comps for KP than two HOF guys in Favre and Bradshaw.

I guess if you are using that as a baseline. Play-wise and on field, I’m not sure you could put a group together that is more different. I would say they are closer to Pickett than Bradshaw and Favre would be.

[Voice of Reason]

sorry I dont see it that way at all ....

I see it as coming from an era that rookie QBs sat 2-4 years in most cases ....

the Falcons had a 2nd round pick in his 3rd year in Tolliver who they likely had belief in still ( because teams dont give up on QBs drafted highly before that 4 year period )

Their sits Favre out of shape , drunk , high or whatever 3rd on the depth chart also because of those in front of him and how the League worked in the early 90s ...

THAT is why he got 4 snaps along comes the Packers and offers them MORE than what they paid for him in draft stock and they took it ...Look I love my Trike but if you want to pay me more than what I paid for it and I got to enjoy it for a year then by all means go grab the cash and stop on by

The bottom line is that the Falcons made a final judgement on Favre and chose to get rid of him and keep Miller and Tolliver over him based on a one year sample. Doing that turned out to be a tremendous mistake.

[Voice of Reason]

I just don’t think Favre is a good comparison for KP. Favre had more talent in his little finger than KP has overall on his best day.

I'm not comparing Favre to KP as a quarterback. I used Favre as an example of the perils of making final judgements on young players based on a limited sample size.

[Mojouw]

I'm not comparing Favre to KP as a quarterback. I used Favre as an example of the perils of making final judgements on young players based on a limited sample size.

Again, iAtlanta Favre was a fall down drunk. In Green Bay he didn’t have the same opportunities to party. There’s little there now and less 30 years ago.

It’s just not a useful comparison unless we think KP is playing drunk. I don’t think he is. But it might help behind his line to have a little liquid courage.

[86WARD]

Again, iAtlanta Favre was a fall down drunk. In Green Bay he didn’t have the same opportunities to party. There’s little there now and less 30 years ago.

It’s just not a useful comparison unless we think KP is playing drunk. I don’t think he is. But it might help behind his line to have a little liquid courage.

He may not have had as many clubs in Green Bay but don’t think he wasn’t out partying just as much as he would have in Atlanta. He and Mark Chmura were out partying non-stop. [emoji23]

KP drunk may explain the difference in seasons…

[Mojouw]

He may not have had as many clubs in Green Bay but don’t think he wasn’t out partying just as much as he would have in Atlanta. He and Mark Chmura were out partying non-stop. [emoji23]

KP drunk may explain the difference in seasons…

Chewi and Favre passing out in hot tubs at high school parties. That never gets old.

[El Kabong]

Again, iAtlanta Favre was a fall down drunk. In Green Bay he didn’t have the same opportunities to party. There’s little there now and less 30 years ago.

It’s just not a useful comparison unless we think KP is playing drunk. I don’t think he is. But it might help behind his line to have a little liquid courage.
Bobby Layne used to play drunk. I think it helped him.

[Steeler-in-west]

Bobby Layne used to play drunk. I think it helped him.

I wish it helped the Steelers, he made them competitive for a short while at least

re KP, i guess this being a message board some of us can’t help but predict whether KP has it or not. He just barely has a seasons worth of starts with a bad o line and admittedly probably the worst OC in the league and he’s being written off already. He could have a career as good as Favre’s, he could be less than that, hard to tell at this point. If we’re comparing him to Ben or a top QB in the league to see if he can throw a 20 yard completion while being dragged down by two defenders, that’s not a fair way to judge. He has thrown TD passes while under alot of pressure, but that tends to be forgotten. I think he’ll be good given the right support - others think he’s average at best. In the end, I think we would better be able to judge when his rookie contact is coming to an end and he’s had a chance to work with a decent OC (and better line)

[fansince'76]

re KP, i guess this being a message board some of us can’t help but predict whether KP has it or not. He just barely has a seasons worth of starts with a bad o line and admittedly probably the worst OC in the league...

No "probably" about it.

And as far as Bradshaw was concerned, it was often a 50/50 proposition on any given dropback whether he would wind up throwing an absolute laser or a horrible INT. He had more than his share of 20+ INT seasons. Favre threw a ton of picks (and many of them really ugly) as well. Does nobody else remember that?

Personally, I think the jury is still very much out on Pickett. As someone else mentioned, he does seem to have the clutch factor that can't be coached and guys like Maddox certainly didn't have.

[Voice of Reason]

Again, iAtlanta Favre was a fall down drunk. In Green Bay he didn’t have the same opportunities to party. There’s little there now and less 30 years ago.
So you're saying that we don't need rehab centers or Alcoholics Anonymous. If you want to cure someone's drinking problem, just send him to Green Bay. :)

[Voice of Reason]

re KP, i guess this being a message board some of us can’t help but predict whether KP has it or not. He just barely has a seasons worth of starts with a bad o line and admittedly probably the worst OC in the league and he’s being written off already. He could have a career as good as Favre’s, he could be less than that, hard to tell at this point. If we’re comparing him to Ben or a top QB in the league to see if he can throw a 20 yard completion while being dragged down by two defenders, that’s not a fair way to judge. He has thrown TD passes while under alot of pressure, but that tends to be forgotten. I think he’ll be good given the right support - others think he’s average at best. In the end, I think we would better be able to judge when his rookie contact is coming to an end and he’s had a chance to work with a decent OC (and better line)
:iagree:

[pczach]

No "probably" about it.

And as far as Bradshaw was concerned, it was often a 50/50 proposition on any given dropback whether he would wind up throwing an absolute laser or a horrible INT. He had more than his share of 20+ INT seasons. Favre threw a ton of picks (and many of them really ugly) as well. Does nobody else remember that?

Personally, I think the jury is still very much out on Pickett. As someone else mentioned, he does seem to have the clutch factor that can't be coached and guys like Maddox certainly didn't have.



I agree.

I understand people having doubts about Pickett. I really do. It is hard for some people to see past the shitshow that is going on all around him and that he is standing in the middle of called Canada's offense. But there are some things that Pickett needs to improve on.

I think that many fans forget how awful Terry Bradshaw was for nearly 5 years. He had games that looked like they pulled some random guy out of the stands and said "Let's see what you can do.". He was that bad, and even after getting it, he would still have games with 3,4,5 interceptions.

If that doesn't make the points about Pickett to the doubters, just take a look at the poster boy for Pickett doubt....Brock Purdy. Purdy was playing against a good defense in shitty weather yesterday. He was playing against a defense with Jim Schwartz at the DC. He has owned the 49ers as a DC. I think I saw that when playing Schwartz's defenses, Shanahan is 1-9. When a defense can guard you and match up with you, things get tight everywhere. The defense understood the design of the offense and also understood what the offense was trying to do to them nearly every play. The coverage was better. Windows were much tighter. They got pressure on Purdy often, and the result was 12-27 125 yards 1 TD 1 INT.

Kinda sounds like just another day on the job for Kenny Pickett doesn't it? It's amazing what happens to quarterbacks when they are facing pressure and tight coverage isn't it? Also, when teams can get pressure only rushing 4. It matters.

Also, playing in bad weather doesn't help either, does it? Well, that's what teams in the AFC North face all the time. Canada's scheme has been figured out and is easy to defend. Kenny is trapped in that situation.

Where was his lightning-fast processing yesterday? Nowhere to be found. Why? Because he didn't have a lot of time, the defense was getting pressure on him all day, much of the time just rushing 4. His running game wasn't dominant. Receivers weren't open. He was playing in shitty weather and he lost some of his weapons. The DC of the opposing defense knows how to defend the 49ers offense. There were some pretty shitty weather conditions as well. Sound familiar to any Steelers fans?

Some just can't make that leap and see it. Yesterday, Brock Purdy was playing in a situation that Kenny Pickett lives in. Think about that for a second.

Nobody is saying Pickett is a generational talent or that he is a physical freak of nature. We don't know how good he really is or how good he can be until he is released from this shitshow of an offense with a real NFL OC that can design a quality offense with good play calling skills. He is playing with one hand tied behind his back. Other quarterbacks only see the conditions and situations that Pickett sees once in a while. Kenny Pickett is facing that no-win situation on a weekly basis. I hope that sinks in to fans.

[Mojouw]

OK. Does all that mean that KP requires a Shanahan level of defense melting offensive system to experience success in?

Because both Purdy and Pickett have drawbacks to their games that may prevent sustained NFL success. You post would seem to confirm that without significant assistance from both scheme and star level players throughout the supporting offensive cast QB's like Purdy and Pickett can and will struggle.

I know I am coming off like a giant butthole. I get it. But if everyone is going to insist that we all look past the surface results and understand how severely the offensive system and play-calls are hindering KP's performance; then I am going to insist that it gets explained how the offensive system prevents KP from accurately throwing a 5 yard crossing route from a clean pocket and with his feet set. I am going to insist that it gets explained how the offensive system is consistently causing KP to bail out of clean pockets. I want to know how the system is causing KP to not see open options on multiple plays in each game. And these are NOT plays where Mason Cole ends up in his lap or where Chuks whiffs on a block.

My theory is that KP except for ONE season at Pitt played behind really bad offensive lines. He's behind another one here. I think his brain is broken from the experiences and he gets flushed at the first sight of a pass rush. He feels he has to. In the year he had Jordan Addison clowning on DBs, he could roll out, reset, and launch a big play to his star WR. He continues to attempt to replicate that response in the NFL. He and the current Steelers system is simply not good enough to support that.

I think that overall, KP is a reasonably mobile, moderately accurate QB that struggles from muddy pockets, has the instinct for the big play that his arm can not always match, and hunts for the big play rather than taking a small profit on most pass plays. He prefers to live in one on one throws along the boundary rather than pushing it over the middle. And that makes sense. He is avoiding the turnover, good for him.

Honestly, I watched the Bucs-Lions game yesterday and KP reminds me of a less annoying Baker Mayfield.

[pczach]

OK. Does all that mean that KP requires a Shanahan level of defense melting offensive system to experience success in?

Because both Purdy and Pickett have drawbacks to their games that may prevent sustained NFL success. You post would seem to confirm that without significant assistance from both scheme and star level players throughout the supporting offensive cast QB's like Purdy and Pickett can and will struggle.

I know I am coming off like a giant butthole. I get it. But if everyone is going to insist that we all look past the surface results and understand how severely the offensive system and play-calls are hindering KP's performance; then I am going to insist that it gets explained how the offensive system prevents KP from accurately throwing a 5 yard crossing route from a clean pocket and with his feet set. I am going to insist that it gets explained how the offensive system is consistently causing KP to bail out of clean pockets. I want to know how the system is causing KP to not see open options on multiple plays in each game. And these are NOT plays where Mason Cole ends up in his lap or where Chuks whiffs on a block.

My theory is that KP except for ONE season at Pitt played behind really bad offensive lines. He's behind another one here. I think his brain is broken from the experiences and he gets flushed at the first sight of a pass rush. He feels he has to. In the year he had Jordan Addison clowning on DBs, he could roll out, reset, and launch a big play to his star WR. He continues to attempt to replicate that response in the NFL. He and the current Steelers system is simply not good enough to support that.

I think that overall, KP is a reasonably mobile, moderately accurate QB that struggles from muddy pockets, has the instinct for the big play that his arm can not always match, and hunts for the big play rather than taking a small profit on most pass plays. He prefers to live in one on one throws along the boundary rather than pushing it over the middle. And that makes sense. He is avoiding the turnover, good for him.

Honestly, I watched the Bucs-Lions game yesterday and KP reminds me of a less annoying Baker Mayfield.


You're thinking it is just about Pickett and Purdy. Did you watch football yesterday? Did you see how the Jets defense made Josh Allen look? This happens to all quarterbacks from time to time. It doesn't mean they all suck. It means that sometimes, the other team just has a better game plan and the other team plays well. In Pickett's case, it unfortunately happens a lot more often.

I am not absolving Pickett of any blame. I am just explaining how difficult it is for the greatest quarterbacks to succeed in bad situations.

I think Kenny Pickett can play football well. I believe that in a good system he can be a very good quarterback, with a chance to be more because he plays well in clutch situations. Given the right circumstances, he can become a player capable of doing damage and becoming a consistent high-level performer. I can see him having that chance if they support him and give him a competent OC.

I can see Kenny Pickett as being a more mobile Jared Goff. Or maybe a more mobile, more clutch Kirk Cousins. I think those guys have a chance to win a ton of game and go far if they have a good enough team around them. I think Pickett can be better than both of them. No guarantees here. Just an opinion based on what limited time we have seen him in plays that put him in a position to succeed, and a projection of what I think he is capable of.

I don't think anything happened to him at Pitt to ruin him or give him bad habits that can't be worked out of his game. I am more worried about what is going on right now with the Steelers and getting hit and playing in a system where nobody is open often enough. People say he is always bailing, but a large percentage of the time there is nobody open.

Did you see my link that I posted earlier showing that Pickett faces the most perfect coverage snaps of any quarterback in the NFL? "Perfect Coverage" means that nobody is open. All receivers are covered. He faces that more than anyone. It is pathetic when you see the chart and see how Pickett is at the far left of the chart, a whole bunch around the middle, and Brock Purdy in the upper left all alone.

This isn't making up excuses for Pickett. Data keeps coming in to show that the system and Canada's offense is even worse than we all think. It is embarrassingly bad.

Please read these when you have time:

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/10/one-stat-shows-the-steelers-pass-game-is-making-life-hard-on-kenny-pickett/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

https://twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1712212124141809820?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1712212124141809820%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

Many of the problems you claim Pickett has can be coached out of him. Goff is a perfect example of going to a system that fits him, and building his knowledge base and the improvement of his skills and decision-making combined with learning how to manage a game. All the while learning from his past failures and using those experiences to take him beyond what he was with the Rams. He is not even the same player in Detroit. Quarterback development can really happen. Sure, there has to be a certain amount of talent, but I think Pickett has the talent to be more than he is so far. Much more.

[DesertSteel]

Honestly, I watched the Bucs-Lions game yesterday and KP reminds me of a less annoying Baker Mayfield.
For me, the QB that stood out in that game was Goff. He's reinvented himself into a top 5 QB and legitimate MVP candidate.

[oneforthetoe]

......Or maybe a more mobile, more clutch Kirk Cousins.....

This is actually where I am at now.

[Mojouw]

You're thinking it is just about Pickett and Purdy. Did you watch football yesterday? Did you see how the Jets defense made Josh Allen look? This happens to all quarterbacks from time to time. It doesn't mean they all suck. It means that sometimes, the other team just has a better game plan and the other team plays well. In Pickett's case, it unfortunately happens a lot more often.

I am not absolving Pickett of any blame. I am just explaining how difficult it is for the greatest quarterbacks to succeed in bad situations.

I think Kenny Pickett can play football well. I believe that in a good system he can be a very good quarterback, with a chance to be more because he plays well in clutch situations. Given the right circumstances, he can become a player capable of doing damage and becoming a consistent high-level performer. I can see him having that chance if they support him and give him a competent OC.

I can see Kenny Pickett as being a more mobile Jared Goff. Or maybe a more mobile, more clutch Kirk Cousins. I think those guys have a chance to win a ton of game and go far if they have a good enough team around them. I think Pickett can be better than both of them. No guarantees here. Just an opinion based on what limited time we have seen him in plays that put him in a position to succeed, and a projection of what I think he is capable of.

I don't think anything happened to him at Pitt to ruin him or give him bad habits that can't be worked out of his game. I am more worried about what is going on right now with the Steelers and getting hit and playing in a system where nobody is open often enough. People say he is always bailing, but a large percentage of the time there is nobody open.

Did you see my link that I posted earlier showing that Pickett faces the most perfect coverage snaps of any quarterback in the NFL? "Perfect Coverage" means that nobody is open. All receivers are covered. He faces that more than anyone. It is pathetic when you see the chart and see how Pickett is at the far left of the chart, a whole bunch around the middle, and Brock Purdy in the upper left all alone.

This isn't making up excuses for Pickett. Data keeps coming in to show that the system and Canada's offense is even worse than we all think. It is embarrassingly bad.

Please read these when you have time:

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/10/one-stat-shows-the-steelers-pass-game-is-making-life-hard-on-kenny-pickett/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

https://twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1712212124141809820?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1712212124141809820%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

Many of the problems you claim Pickett has can be coached out of him. Goff is a perfect example of going to a system that fits him, and building his knowledge base and the improvement of his skills and decision-making combined with learning how to manage a game. All the while learning from his past failures and using those experiences to take him beyond what he was with the Rams. He is not even the same player in Detroit. Quarterback development can really happen. Sure, there has to be a certain amount of talent, but I think Pickett has the talent to be more than he is so far. Much more.

I haven't disagreed with any of this.

Matt. Canada. Offense. Sucks. And. Makes. Every. Player. In. It. Worse.

That being said....we can attempt to evaluate KP from beyond just a statistical perspective. What does he look like as he executes the fundamentals of playing QB for an NFL team?

From the first several weeks of this season, I have seen a QB that struggles to make accurate passes at times to all levels of the field from both pressured pockets and stable pockets. I have also seen a QB that elevates his game in "weighty moments". I have also seen a QB that is being heavily pressured but also responds to the threat of pressure the same as actual pressure. He's jittery back there. Many pre-draft reports indicated that this was an element of his game throughout his career at Pitt due to playing behind poor offensive lines. I suspect that bad habits are re-surfacing especially because Mason Cole has been awful and KP feels escaping to the sidelines is a "better" option than climbing the pocket as Cole flails around and fails to block people.

I have also seen a QB whose only proven NFL level throw is the back-shoulder boundary throw to a covered WR. And claims that there is never anyone open are a bit tough to swallow. I have seen KP not see open options from my couch. There are how many dozens of videos and moving picture breakdowns out there across the internet from former NFL QBs, coaches, and players that show plays being left on the field. Does the system make it HARD as hell to sometimes get to those plays? Probably? Maybe? I don't know. Does it make those plays infrequent and surrounded by flaming piles of useless broken plays? Absolutely.

I have asked this question as straight-forwardly as I know how. And no one has answered it. Just repeated accurate and perceptive descriptions of how Matt Canada's play design and play calling are terrible. But I will ask again:

What does KP do well that would form the building blocks of his game under a new OC? If the Lions built the system for Jared Goff, we can extrapolate that to what the Lions figured Goff does well. So go through the mental exercise with KP in your mind. I am struggling to picture what that offense is...

[DesertSteel]

A mobile, clutch Kirk Cousins would be an All-Pro.

[pczach]

I haven't disagreed with any of this.

Matt. Canada. Offense. Sucks. And. Makes. Every. Player. In. It. Worse.

That being said....we can attempt to evaluate KP from beyond just a statistical perspective. What does he look like as he executes the fundamentals of playing QB for an NFL team?





From the first several weeks of this season, I have seen a QB that struggles to make accurate passes at times to all levels of the field from both pressured pockets and stable pockets. I have also seen a QB that elevates his game in "weighty moments". I have also seen a QB that is being heavily pressured but also responds to the threat of pressure the same as actual pressure. He's jittery back there. Many pre-draft reports indicated that this was an element of his game throughout his career at Pitt due to playing behind poor offensive lines. I suspect that bad habits are re-surfacing especially because Mason Cole has been awful and KP feels escaping to the sidelines is a "better" option than climbing the pocket as Cole flails around and fails to block people.

I have also seen a QB whose only proven NFL level throw is the back-shoulder boundary throw to a covered WR. And claims that there is never anyone open are a bit tough to swallow. I have seen KP not see open options from my couch. There are how many dozens of videos and moving picture breakdowns out there across the internet from former NFL QBs, coaches, and players that show plays being left on the field. Does the system make it HARD as hell to sometimes get to those plays? Probably? Maybe? I don't know. Does it make those plays infrequent and surrounded by flaming piles of useless broken plays? Absolutely.

I have asked this question as straight-forwardly as I know how. And no one has answered it. Just repeated accurate and perceptive descriptions of how Matt Canada's play design and play calling are terrible. But I will ask again:

What does KP do well that would form the building blocks of his game under a new OC? If the Lions built the system for Jared Goff, we can extrapolate that to what the Lions figured Goff does well. So go through the mental exercise with KP in your mind. I am struggling to picture what that offense is...



Your quote: "Claims that there is never anyone open are a bit tough to swallow."

Sorry brother. I gave you 2 links that show stats and graphs that explain a lot of this. It doesn't mean nobody ever gets open. It means that it isn't near often enough....by a mile. When QBs go through progressions and not many are open and the protection isn't great, they run out of time before finding the open man....if there is one. All quarterbacks. Not just Pickett.

Kenny can do just about everything a quarterback needs to be able to do. The only thing he lacks is tremendous arm strength. He doesn't have an elite arm, but his arm is good enough. The rest of it is being put in the right positions to use his tools. The rest of it revolves around a coaching staff that is able to cultivate that talent, focus it in a system that actually works, and continue to have him learn how to play the position. He is not being coached properly here. Maybe he's a dope, he simply doesn't know what he's doing, and he simply isn't capable mentally. Tomlin has confirmed that isn't the issue with Pickett.

You keep looking for this answer about what he does well. It's like asking what a student in trigonometry does well when they have a bad teacher. The answer is the student is lost. It doesn't always mean the student simply can't learn.

If you are learning in a bad system, then you aren't learning. I don't know how else to say it to you. Much may have to be undone after this debacle of an offense for him to learn how offensive football is supposed to work and what to look for. He still hasn't seen what real NFL offense looks like. That's how you learn...within a system that works. You tell me if he has that?

[Mojouw]

Your quote: "Claims that there is never anyone open are a bit tough to swallow."

Sorry brother. I gave you 2 links that show stats and graphs that explain a lot of this. It doesn't mean nobody ever gets open. It means that it isn't near often enough....by a mile. When QBs go through progressions and not many are open and the protection isn't great, they run out of time before finding the open man....if there is one. All quarterbacks. Not just Pickett.

Kenny can do just about everything a quarterback needs to be able to do. The only thing he lacks is tremendous arm strength. He doesn't have an elite arm, but his arm is good enough. The rest of it is being put in the right positions to use his tools. The rest of it revolves around a coaching staff that is able to cultivate that talent, focus it in a system that actually works, and continue to have him learn how to play the position. He is not being coached properly here. Maybe he's a dope, he simply doesn't know what he's doing, and he simply isn't capable mentally. Tomlin has confirmed that isn't the issue with Pickett.

You keep looking for this answer about what he does well. It's like asking what a student in trigonometry does well when they have a bad teacher. The answer is the student is lost. It doesn't always mean the student simply can't learn.

If you are learning in a bad system, then you aren't learning. I don't know how else to say it to you. Much may have to be undone after this debacle of an offense for him to learn how offensive football is supposed to work and what to look for. He still hasn't seen what real NFL offense looks like. That's how you learn...within a system that works. You tell me if he has that?

Say a student is just lost in a terrible Trig class. Fine, they aren't going to know about sine and cosine and all that trig stuff. But we could still see if they could add, subtract, multiply, and divide.

I mean we can find this on Twitter too:

https://x.com/ByJoshCarney/status/1708900464337522854?s=20

https://x.com/theqbschool/status/1593680442808422400?s=20

Both feature KP being bad in a perfectly fine pocket.

Here are more: https://youtu.be/r-t5Y3EZP3Y?si=1kVqH2gboM08fxoU

Orlovsky after the Cleveland game: https://x.com/PatMcAfeeShow/status/1704173376426704903?s=20

Alex K looking through the Texans game and showing both things KP missed and things the offense as a whole failed at:https://youtu.be/mdddbn5O0d4?si=slN3k_kVN9-3zQYP (http://https://youtu.be/mdddbn5O0d4?si=slN3k_kVN9-3zQYP)

That is a QB struggling with not only Trig because the teacher is awful but that is a QB struggling with basic math. To torture the metaphor further, we would assign that student to a remedial math class.

I think those "percent guarded" stats from earlier (at least from what I could find online) are on the throws MADE. So if a QB is just not throwing to "open" options, then that stat would not capture that....so there is a bit of room for a variety of outcomes here.

And how can you just say that KP can do all the things a QB needs to do? Based on what? One good college year? Like 4 plays a game for parts of two seasons in the pros? Explain to me what he does well? I do not see a QB that does anything like a first round QB. I see a QB who does a bunch of things at an average or below average level. What is the difference between KP and PJ Walker? What is the difference between KP and Gardner Minshew?

KP has looked good in the NFL against terrible teams down the stretch in 2022 and in preseason against vanilla defenses and mostly back-ups...against NFL teams and good defenses he has looked very not-good. And I am not just talking about the advanced NFL stuff. Much of this is basic things that a QB has to have when they enter the league. I mean, KP in 2023 does not throw 5 yard crossing routes accurately. That isn't something that is taught.

[pczach]

Say a student is just lost in a terrible Trig class. Fine, they aren't going to know about sine and cosine and all that trig stuff. But we could still see if they could add, subtract, multiply, and divide.

I mean we can find this on Twitter too:

https://x.com/ByJoshCarney/status/1708900464337522854?s=20

https://x.com/theqbschool/status/1593680442808422400?s=20

Both feature KP being bad in a perfectly fine pocket.

Here are more: https://youtu.be/r-t5Y3EZP3Y?si=1kVqH2gboM08fxoU

Orlovsky after the Cleveland game: https://x.com/PatMcAfeeShow/status/1704173376426704903?s=20

Alex K looking through the Texans game and showing both things KP missed and things the offense as a whole failed at:https://youtu.be/mdddbn5O0d4?si=slN3k_kVN9-3zQYP (http://https://youtu.be/mdddbn5O0d4?si=slN3k_kVN9-3zQYP)

That is a QB struggling with not only Trig because the teacher is awful but that is a QB struggling with basic math. To torture the metaphor further, we would assign that student to a remedial math class.

I think those "percent guarded" stats from earlier (at least from what I could find online) are on the throws MADE. So if a QB is just not throwing to "open" options, then that stat would not capture that....so there is a bit of room for a variety of outcomes here.

And how can you just say that KP can do all the things a QB needs to do? Based on what? One good college year? Like 4 plays a game for parts of two seasons in the pros? Explain to me what he does well? I do not see a QB that does anything like a first round QB. I see a QB who does a bunch of things at an average or below average level. What is the difference between KP and PJ Walker? What is the difference between KP and Gardner Minshew?

KP has looked good in the NFL against terrible teams down the stretch in 2022 and in preseason against vanilla defenses and mostly back-ups...against NFL teams and good defenses he has looked very not-good. And I am not just talking about the advanced NFL stuff. Much of this is basic things that a QB has to have when they enter the league. I mean, KP in 2023 does not throw 5 yard crossing routes accurately. That isn't something that is taught.


The difference is that in this case, Pickett can't go to a tutor to help him learn. He only has one system to play in and one coaching staff.

If you can't look at the graph of open receivers in coverage, I don't know what to tell you.

We will agree to disagree on Pickett. It will play itself out.

Yup this is the crux of the Purdy debate. He has been efficient even when things don't go right to his credit, but he's faced more broken coverages from opposing defenses than any QB in the league. He shouldn't be criticized for it, but that's just the nature of SF's offense




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8L_L1LX0AAOF9B?format=jpg&name=900x900


(https://twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1712212124141809820/photo/1)





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Kyle Boller’s Burner





@ballinballerr


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Oct 11










Replying to @arjunmenon100
This is the perfect example of the Brock Purdy conundrum. No doubt he is absolutely balling but is RARELY put into tough situations. What’s the difference between his % of perfectly guarded plays vs 2nd place? That gap looks bigger than 2nd place to 16th place







5:02 PM · Oct 11, 2023 (https://twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1712212124141809820)
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480.7K
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[Mojouw]

The Steelers are running about 60 offensive plays per game. And the best I could find indicates that about 33 of those are passing plays. The biggest "clump" of teams on the chart is at between 40-35%. So that would mean that between 12-13 of the Steelers plays per week would be perfectly guarded if they were on par with the rest of the offenses in the league.

The chart shows the Steelers at like 46-47% perfectly guarded which works out to roughly 15-16. So the Steelers are perfectly guarded 3 more times a game (or about 10% of their total passing plays) more than the rest of the league.

Does that mean that ALL the negative things we can see KP do -- there is actual film of it and everything -- happens on the 3 more plays a game he faces perfect coverage than other NFL starting QBs? What about the other plays per game?

Matt Canada's terrible offense and the awful play of Pat Meyer's offensive line is murdering the Steelers offense in its sleep. It has destroyed the usefulness of players like Friermuth, Johnson, Harris, and Austin III. KP is totally hindered from being successful as well. No arguments. No doubts.

But just as we can evaluate the play of others in the offense and see that there are things they do well and do not do well...we can do the same for KP. And in ADDITION TO the schematic things that are broken, KP also makes significant and costly mistakes. Mistakes in elements of his game that he was billed as being advanced and ready to go at. That is troubling and concerning regardless of who is running what offense.

[Voice of Reason]

I want to know how the system is causing KP to not see open options on multiple plays in each game.

I don't mean to single you out, but this is an example of a contradiction I've seen many times from many people when they talk about Kenny Pickett. On the one hand, everyone seems to agree that Matt Canada's offense is horrible and he doesn't know how to scheme people open and the opposing defenses have figured him out and know what plays the Steelers are going to run and therefore have the plays properly defensed and shut down. But then KP critics like yourself talk about how he does not "see open options on multiple plays in each game". Wait a minute. Isn't that the opposite of the general consensus? Are you saying that Matt Canada's supposedly crappy offense is producing open options on multiple plays in each game? If that's the case, then Canada's offense isn't nearly as bad as people think it is. Is that what you're saying?

The KP critics can't have it both ways. You can't criticize Canada for having a crappy offense while at the same time saying that this same crappy offense is producing open options on multiple plays in each game that Kenny is missing. Those two statements are total opposites, and cannot both be true at the same time.

[Dwinsgames]

I don't mean to single you out, but this is an example of a contradiction I've seen many times from many people when they talk about Kenny Pickett. On the one hand, everyone seems to agree that Matt Canada's offense is horrible and he doesn't know how to scheme people open and the opposing defenses have figured him out and know what plays the Steelers are going to run and therefore have the plays properly defensed and shut down. But then KP critics like yourself talk about how he does not "see open options on multiple plays in each game". Wait a minute. Isn't that the opposite of the general consensus? Are you saying that Matt Canada's supposedly crappy offense is producing open options on multiple plays in each game? If that's the case, then Canada's offense isn't nearly as bad as people think it is. Is that what you're saying?

The KP critics can't have it both ways. You can't criticize Canada for having a crappy offense while at the same time saying that this same crappy offense is producing open options on multiple plays in each game that Kenny is missing. Those two statements are total opposites, and cannot both be true at the same time.

both things can be true .....

issue 1 is ......Canada's offense does not get open receivers often enough but it does produce open receivers

issue 2 is ...... KP8 does not see the field well and consequently does not find open receivers when they are present at a high enough rate , he often bails on clean pockets and runs himself into trouble which makes a struggling line look even worse than they often times are ....

KP8 needs to learn to trust his line a little more , fight his demons that tell him to move prematurely , learn to scan the entire field instead of locking on to his man at the snap and never even looking off the defender .... its weird ... I am known to not have been a fan of this selection but KP8 seemed more seasoned to me last year than he is now ...

I have a plethora of reasons that I wasnt high on KP8 coming into the league but I am getting new ones as the season rolls on that wasn't even on my radar before meaning bad habits are being formed SINCE HIS ARRIVAL HERE that were not present before and THAT is troubling and I have nothing to blame it on other than a very poor offensive system and a really poor staff who is less able to see these things than me and clearly is unable to aid in rectifying them ... so what we are now seeing is a guy who should have been drafted in the 4th round playing like he should have been drafted in the 7th round ... instead of a guy drafted in the 1st round starting to look like a 1st round pick ....

I could bring up the guy I wanted to take and how he is progressing but as much as I liked him coming out of college anyone short of Jesus is/was going to fail in this system because its not offensive its, OFFENSIVE !!

[tube517]

I think Kenny should go to the QB Whisperer that Ben used in 2010 during his suspension. Maybe this offseason. Ben became a smarter QB after that. I just recall that 2008 Eagles game when Ben was just manhandled and the Iggles tore that pitiful line to shreds and they looked as bad as this offense and Ben looked really lost that game.

[Mojouw]

I don't mean to single you out, but this is an example of a contradiction I've seen many times from many people when they talk about Kenny Pickett. On the one hand, everyone seems to agree that Matt Canada's offense is horrible and he doesn't know how to scheme people open and the opposing defenses have figured him out and know what plays the Steelers are going to run and therefore have the plays properly defensed and shut down. But then KP critics like yourself talk about how he does not "see open options on multiple plays in each game". Wait a minute. Isn't that the opposite of the general consensus? Are you saying that Matt Canada's supposedly crappy offense is producing open options on multiple plays in each game? If that's the case, then Canada's offense isn't nearly as bad as people think it is. Is that what you're saying?

The KP critics can't have it both ways. You can't criticize Canada for having a crappy offense while at the same time saying that this same crappy offense is producing open options on multiple plays in each game that Kenny is missing. Those two statements are total opposites, and cannot both be true at the same time.

They absolutely can.

Canada's offense does not do enough in play design to provide the QB with easy and open options on a frequent enough basis. This causes everything to hard and herky-jerky. QB does not trust reads.
Even with the bad offense, there are open guys (not on every play) and there is video evidence from last season and this season of KP missing those guys. Likely because he doesn't trust the offense and the OL enough to stick with his progressions. Or he is not that good. No Idea.

I mean all you have to do is watch any of the dozens of provided video links in this thread and you can see it with your own eyes. You can see it on Sunday from your couch. Guys get open in this offense. Not as easily and often as they should, but it is there. Sometime KP finds them for plays both small and big. Other times he just never sees them.

And while Canada's offense is really bad....it isn't as bad as it could be. The one the Patriots run is worse. The Giants seems to be worse. Maybe the Panthers as well. There are plays that work.

Remember...it is 3 plays that separate the Steelers on the graph from earlier from the rest of the pack. Think about that. As friggin' bad as Canada is -- three plays and they are average on "open" guys.

It is possible for two things to be true:
1. Matt Canada's offense is amateurish and riddled with tells that allow the defense to know what is coming before the snap. This causes gaps to get jumped in the running game and routes to closed off in the passing game. Further his plays do not sequence together in any intelligible manner. Nothing builds off anything else. Each play is stand-alone. He also repeats plays way too much in the same game. Additionally, his route concepts are too static and limit YAC.

2. KP is not good in muddy pockets. His escape routes from the pocket often take him in to pass rushers that would otherwise have been unable to impact the play (Ben R talked about this) and he also takes off in an attempt to make a play out of structure from clean to mostly clean pockets too often. If he was a football playing alien like Ben or Mahomes or Allen. But he isn't so it kinda never works. KP has also been inaccurate on basic throws across the short middle and out into the flat zones on multiple occasions this season from good situations (meaning no pass rush and no needing to move). Finally, the stuff that I can see on the internet that shows me the skycam view of individual plays appears to identify plays where there 1 or more NFL open WRs, time to throw, and KP just not doing it. Now it does need said (as others have pointed out here) that it is possible that KP is being "taught" to not throw these passes for some "Canada is a moron reason". Honestly, that is more terrifying to me...if he is willing to eat a sack or a throw-away AND he sees the open guy but doesn't throw it because "coaching"....whoa boy....not the guy I want making decisions when the chips are down!

Long story short....the system is bad. And I think the QB is also bad. It is like the Patriots situation as well. The offense is dumb. The skill players are below the line. But it is also becoming clear that Mac Jones just isn't an NFL starter. I do not think that is where we are at with KP. But I am starting to wonder if his ceiling is below "playoff winner" and "SB caliber" QB. I think he tops out at "guy you win in the regular season with".

ALL this being said....watch DJ come back and "unlock" this offense. And I look silly because the ability of a WR to beat one on one coverage was the missing ingredient that lets this offense rise from terrible to a bit below average....

[Mojouw]

Final thought for the morning and a more positive one.

Thinking about all of this and I am wondering if the whole issue is that KP knows how bad the offense is and knows they’re not moving the ball.

So he’s big play hunting. Only looking for explosive plays. Leads to mostly big throws along the boundary, leaving pockets to roll out and set up for the big throw, etc.

[Dwinsgames]

The difference is that in this case, Pickett can't go to a tutor to help him learn. He only has one system to play in and one coaching staff.

If you can't look at the graph of open receivers in coverage, I don't know what to tell you.

We will agree to disagree on Pickett. It will play itself out.

Yup this is the crux of the Purdy debate. He has been efficient even when things don't go right to his credit, but he's faced more broken coverages from opposing defenses than any QB in the league. He shouldn't be criticized for it, but that's just the nature of SF's offense




https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8L_L1LX0AAOF9B?format=jpg&name=900x900


(https://twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1712212124141809820/photo/1)





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https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1343693983038496768/RCWXPVPV_normal.jpg













Kyle Boller’s Burner





@ballinballerr


·
Oct 11










Replying to @arjunmenon100
This is the perfect example of the Brock Purdy conundrum. No doubt he is absolutely balling but is RARELY put into tough situations. What’s the difference between his % of perfectly guarded plays vs 2nd place? That gap looks bigger than 2nd place to 16th place







5:02 PM · Oct 11, 2023 (https://twitter.com/arjunmenon100/status/1712212124141809820)
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480.7K
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if that is the case using your same graph then why has Howell substantially out played Pickett unless of course Howell is just the better player :)

Howell



Regular Season






67.8
67.8



1,500

1,500



9

9



6

6






90.1







- - - Updated - - -

Kenny Pickett



Regular Season





59.7
59.7



1,027
1,027



5
5



4
4



78.8

[Edman]

If everyone else is doing great and the QB sucks, then you can make a definitive case of Kenny Pickett not being good. But as we all know by now, that isn't the case.

KP is highly competitive and he's desperately, TRYING to make something happen in this putrid offense. But more often than not there's just nothing there.

[Steeler-in-west]

I looked at a number of videos and those don't look like clean pockets. Either the middle of the line is being pushed into the QB or there is a collapse from the side, in a couple cases when KP moves up and to the right to buy time as he's coming through the opening a defender shakes his blocker and sacks KP. Maybe KP could side step to the left, but its such a tight space, and i can see why he doesn't do it; he can't get in sync with this offense; he's being harassed constantly, blocking is poor, he's been hit a number of times already and receivers are not getting open soon enough. He's probably afraid of getting blindsided and/or the ball getting stripped. its basically the O line and the scheme - and a QB who can't get into rhythm.

its good he's starting to call audibles - that should help. Hope he keeps doing it.

[Mojouw]

https://x.com/ByJoshCarney/status/1708900464337522854?s=20

I gotta know which NFL QBs are getting pockets better than the above.

[Voice of Reason]

KP is not good in muddy pockets. His escape routes from the pocket often take him in to pass rushers that would otherwise have been unable to impact the play (Ben R talked about this) and he also takes off in an attempt to make a play out of structure from clean to mostly clean pockets too often. If he was a football playing alien like Ben or Mahomes or Allen. But he isn't so it kinda never works. KP has also been inaccurate on basic throws across the short middle and out into the flat zones on multiple occasions this season from good situations (meaning no pass rush and no needing to move). Finally, the stuff that I can see on the internet that shows me the skycam view of individual plays appears to identify plays where there 1 or more NFL open WRs, time to throw, and KP just not doing it.
We both agree on what you say here. In many ways Kenny Pickett has not played well this year. What we disagree about is the reason. This goes back to the ability vs. confidence question that I referred to in my first post in this thread. You tend to think that he is playing poorly because he does not have the ability to be a good QB. But I look back at last year where he was doing much better in the things you are criticizing him for now. This shows me that he does have and has always had the ability to do those things much better, so the reason he is not doing them so well now must be something else. As I said in my original post, I think the reason is that he has suffered a (hopefully temporary) lack of confidence. The beat down he suffered in the 49er game shook him up and rattled him. So in subsequent games this year he has sometimes played like a rattled quarterback, and made the errors you described. Right now Kenny is in a place where things need to go right for him to keep him calmed down. The two games he played the worst were games where he threw an interception early. It also didn't help that in those two games the defense couldn't stop the opponent from going up and down the field, and Kenny was playing from way behind by the early part of the 2nd quarter.

As I said in an earlier post, I am encouraged by the final drive against the Ravens, where Kenny looked like his old self for the first time this year. I hope and believe that as time goes by and he gets more experience he will regain his confidence and learn not to let temporary setbacks upset him so. This is part of every young player's development, and generally why it is not wise to make quick judgements on a young player too soon. Eventually the time will come where everything will click in for him, and then we will see whether he has the ability to be a good QB or not.

[Born2Steel]

49ers, Browns, Raiders, Texans, and Ravens. Perception vs reality.

Perception says if these were our next 5 games we maybe come out 1-4/2-3 at best.

Reality IS we went 3-2. Without DJ. Without Cam.

[Dwinsgames]

49ers, Browns, Raiders, Texans, and Ravens. Perception vs reality.

Perception says if these were our next 5 games we maybe come out 1-4/2-3 at best.

Reality IS we went 3-2. Without DJ. Without Cam.

blown out of two , lucky to have won any of the others and without exceptional defensive play and splash plays on def we would be 0-5 ... thats reality

[pczach]

if that is the case using your same graph then why has Howell substantially out played Pickett unless of course Howell is just the better player :)

Howell



Regular Season






67.8
67.8



1,500

1,500



9

9



6

6






90.1







- - - Updated - - -

Kenny Pickett



Regular Season





59.7
59.7



1,027
1,027



5
5



4
4



78.8










Because Washington has a better running game. Washington averages 4.2 yards per carry. The Steelers average 3.4 yards per carry. Washington also has a better offensive line that gives Howell more time to throw, and they blitz Howell much more because they can't pressure him with just 4 like Pickett is facing.

Even though Howell averages the same amount of time before he throws the ball or is pressured, he also faces twice as many blitzes as Pickett. That tells you that Howell's OL protects Howell well when defenses are only rushing 4, and that defenses have to blitz much more to get pressure on him. In spite of all the additional blitzes, the time to throw or be pressured is exactly the same as Pickett.

That means that Howell has had more opportunities to make plays while being blitzed and faces less coverage than Pickett because Pickett gets the same time to throw as him, but because defenses primarily get that pressure with just 4 rushers he is facing more defenders in coverage.

Howell and Pickett have been knocked down or hurried about the same amount of times, Kenny at a slightly higher clip...but again, Kenny is facing that pressure mostly from 4 rushers and has more defenders in coverage on average. Howell has taken 34 sacks. Pickett has been sacked just 14 times, which means Pickett has found ways to stay out of big sack numbers and taking negative plays. Canada takes care of that by creating those negative plays for him with his predictable offense and his horrible play calling. :censored:

Here are the advanced stats: https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php

Pickett has also had 3 of his 4 top weapons out or banged up for a lot of the season. DJ got hurt early in game 2 and hasn't been back. Muth got crushed and injured his chest in the first game. wasn't the same player for a few games and then went out in game 4. Austin went out early in the last game.

You know I'm not bashing Howell. You know I liked him as well. I just liked Pickett a lot more than you did. I think Howell is doing very well. This is more about defending Pickett in this mess of an offense that Canada is inflicting upon him.

[86WARD]

Remember when people laughed at the Rams for drafting Goff and praised the Eagles for drafting Wentz…

[emoji23]

[Mojouw]

Howell is on pace for 20 more sacks than the expansion year Texans and Carr the Elder.

Howell is taking sacks at an alarming rate.

[pczach]

Remember when people laughed at the Rams for drafting Goff and praised the Eagles for drafting Wentz…

[emoji23]



It is difficult to project quarterbacks. It just is. It was hard to argue with any of it after a year or two. Then Wentz's major injuries started happening and Goff was sent off to another organization that developed him and put him in a great system fit.