PDA

View Full Version : Government vs. Capitalism



GBMelBlount
10-14-2010, 06:53 AM
I recently heard that Obama is finally admitting the failure of the government stimulus that cost almost a trillion dollars of additional debt.

It was bullied through with a high degree of urgency. We were told we were on the brink of catastrophe and that the stimulus would ensure new jobs almost immediately and jump start our economy.

He is now admitting that not only is each new shovel job (his words) coming at a cost of a million dollars per job, but the jobs he had guaranteed to create are not even starting yet. He said he only now realizes that there is no such thing as "shovel ready jobs" due to all of the government bureaucracy.

Conversely, if there had been a tax cut to the job creators in the private sector of a trillion dollars I can virtually guarantee you that there would have been far more new jobs created far more quickly by now.

...and what I find more concerning is that although Obama was for the trillion dollar government job stimulus program....he wants to increase taxes on the job creators by the same trillion dollars....is there anyone who feels this does not completely defy ALL logic and common sense?

I believe the jobs lost due to a trillion dollar tax increase would likely be far greater than the jobs created by the stimulus.

I believe Obama has done far more damage than good to our economy both short and long term and I hope there is no one here who is going to give Obama a pass with the liberal mantra of "he inherited it and there was nothing he could do". This is simply not true. He has compounded the problem and made it worse both short and long term imo.

I do not understand why people are so enamored with government solutions to problems over capitalism and free markets?

Is there anyone who disagrees or would care to debate this?

BnG_Hevn
10-14-2010, 07:14 AM
He is admitting that (if indeed he did admit it) to defuse any kind of ammo the Reps have to win seats in November. I highly doubt he is remorseful or even really thinks it was a bad idea.

The sad thing is that it might work.

43Hitman
10-14-2010, 07:16 AM
He's pulling a Clinton to save his ass. He's been reading the Clinton Tapes.

GBMelBlount
10-14-2010, 07:24 AM
Politicians in general tend to change direction due to what is most politically expedient....democrat or republican.

I guess what I am most interested in is discussing what people feel the primary role(s) of government should be.

In my opinion it should be primarily to PROPERLY regulate the free markets and protect us from outside threats and from one another.....not take over and run industries that would be better off as PROPERLY regulated free and competitive markets imo.

venom
10-14-2010, 07:35 AM
The scary thing is that Obama was thinking of another stimulus bill just a few weeks ago . What a mess .

GBMelBlount
10-14-2010, 07:42 AM
The scary thing is that Obama was thinking of another stimulus bill just a few weeks ago . What a mess .

Very good point Venom. THIS clearly shows the difference between government and business.

If a business spent a trillion dollars on a project and realized it was a failure, they would not do the same thing again....because they don't have unlimited resources and can go out of business.

With our government, even when something of the the magnitude of the trillion dollar stimulus failed, their response is....it's not that it failed, we just simply have not done enough of it yet and they push on in the same direction.

Is there anyone who does not see the fundamental problem with big government solutions here?

One of the biggest reasons for this is the government is using OUR money to do this, not theirs, AND they do not have to worry about going out of business....they can simply raise taxes.

GodfatherofSoul
10-14-2010, 10:18 AM
The problem with the stimulus bills is they were Friedmannite, University of Chicago policies and not Keynesian. You don't stimulate economies by investing in the wealthy and corporations. They all just sit on their cash and buy up gold (notice all the advertisements?). Do a Google search for "banks sitting on money" if you doubt me. Keynesian rules say you invest directly in the middle and working class and directly create jobs for them (infrastructure-based which is sorely needed as we've fallen way behind the rest of the developed world). The second stimulus was an acknowledgment that the core philosophy behind Chicago Boys economics doesn't work.

GBMelBlount
10-14-2010, 11:59 AM
The problem with the stimulus bills is they were Friedmannite, University of Chicago policies and not Keynesian. You don't stimulate economies by investing in the wealthy and corporations. They all just sit on their cash and buy up gold (notice all the advertisements?). Do a Google search for "banks sitting on money" if you doubt me. Keynesian rules say you invest directly in the middle and working class and directly create jobs for them (infrastructure-based which is sorely needed as we've fallen way behind the rest of the developed world). The second stimulus was an acknowledgment that the core philosophy behind Chicago Boys economics doesn't work.


Wouldn't LOWERING the taxes on the small businesses who create 75% of all new jobs make better sense than ANY form of commensurate government "stimulus"?

GodfatherofSoul
10-14-2010, 02:21 PM
Taxes have been lowered on small businesses, hell ALL businesses. But, tax cuts isn't much of a economic boost because your sales are way down, too.

BTW I used a misleading term when I said "investing." I meant investing in the sense of making that your focus. The focus should be on the working and middle class.

cold-hard-steel
10-14-2010, 02:33 PM
Well to start off taxes in my area have risen to an unheard of cost.Anyone who lives in,or close to central PA. would know that. With that being said,i will back off in fear of being a dick.

GodfatherofSoul
10-14-2010, 02:58 PM
Well to start off taxes in my area have risen to an unheard of cost.Anyone who lives in,or close to central PA. would know that. With that being said,i will back off in fear of being a dick.

No harm, we're having a debate have your say. I think federal taxes are at the lowest rates since the World War II era. No clue what's going on at the local level.

X-Terminator
10-14-2010, 09:58 PM
No harm, we're having a debate have your say. I think federal taxes are at the lowest rates since the World War II era. No clue what's going on at the local level.

Dude, we (CHS) and I live in Pennsylvania, aka "Taxylvania". It's called that for a reason. And next up for our friends in Harrisburg is a tax on natural gas drilled from the Marcellus Shale deposit, which of course is going to end up being passed on to the customers who are already facing high heating costs and cause some of those companies to pack up shop and go elsewhere that is a more business-friendly...taking their jobs with them. I support Dan Onorato (a Democrat) for governor, but he supports this tax. I hope he reconsiders.

Godfather
10-15-2010, 07:19 PM
Dude, we (CHS) and I live in Pennsylvania, aka "Taxylvania". It's called that for a reason. And next up for our friends in Harrisburg is a tax on natural gas drilled from the Marcellus Shale deposit, which of course is going to end up being passed on to the customers who are already facing high heating costs and cause some of those companies to pack up shop and go elsewhere that is a more business-friendly...taking their jobs with them. I support Dan Onorato (a Democrat) for governor, but he supports this tax. I hope he reconsiders.

Natural resource taxes aren't a bad idea. Most states with large deposits do the same thing--even Texas and Alaska have some form of it. It's a lot better than letting the drillers take the natural resources, put wear and tear on the infrastructure and environment, and pay nothing. But they should use those taxes to lower income taxes across the board. That would benefit everyone.

steeldawg
10-15-2010, 07:25 PM
Guys this is an election year our politicians have bigger concerns than the economy and jobs, its getting re-elected.

X-Terminator
10-15-2010, 09:57 PM
Natural resource taxes aren't a bad idea. Most states with large deposits do the same thing--even Texas and Alaska have some form of it. It's a lot better than letting the drillers take the natural resources, put wear and tear on the infrastructure and environment, and pay nothing. But they should use those taxes to lower income taxes across the board. That would benefit everyone.

You are correct, but using those taxes to lower income taxes for everyone? How does that work? There's this common misconception that tax cuts are spending. They aren't. It's simply allowing people to keep more of what they earn. At any rate, Harrisburg would rather be hit with a nuclear missile than cut taxes for Pennsylvanians. That simply isn't going to happen. The gas companies are going to do the drilling, and the taxpayers are going to get the bill in the form of higher energy costs. It's the way things work in PA.

Godfather
10-16-2010, 01:00 PM
You are correct, but using those taxes to lower income taxes for everyone? How does that work? There's this common misconception that tax cuts are spending. They aren't. It's simply allowing people to keep more of what they earn. At any rate, Harrisburg would rather be hit with a nuclear missile than cut taxes for Pennsylvanians. That simply isn't going to happen. The gas companies are going to do the drilling, and the taxpayers are going to get the bill in the form of higher energy costs. It's the way things work in PA.

Good point. I forgot about the assclowns in Harrisburg.

PA politicians are so bad that when I first moved to New Orleans I didn't understand what people were complaining about.

The WH
10-16-2010, 04:01 PM
Wouldn't LOWERING the taxes on the small businesses who create 75% of all new jobs make better sense than ANY form of commensurate government "stimulus"?
Yes, but small businesses don't fill the campain coffers with cash or capiltol hill with lobbyists.

7SteelGal43
10-16-2010, 10:57 PM
The scary thing is that Obama was thinking of another stimulus bill just a few weeks ago . What a mess .

remind me again what the definition of 'insanity' is........

venom
10-17-2010, 10:13 AM
This morning I went to sign my dogs up for welfare.
At first the lady said, "Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare."
So I explained to her that my dogs are mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no frigging clue who their Daddy's are.
They expect me to feed them, provide them with housing and medical care.
So she looked in her policy book to see what it takes to qualify.
My dogs get their first checks Friday.
.
Damn, this is a great country!


http://diva-sales.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/4_wet_dogs_by_water.112182931_std.jpg

Godfather
10-17-2010, 06:01 PM
Or they could have done something useful with the stimulus. Like starting a Manhattan Project to insulate our vital infrastructure from an EMP attack. It would take several years, but we need to get it done now. As in before Iran has ICBMs.

GodfatherofSoul
10-19-2010, 10:23 AM
This morning I went to sign my dogs up for welfare.
At first the lady said, "Dogs are not eligible to draw welfare."
So I explained to her that my dogs are mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can't speak English and have no frigging clue who their Daddy's are.
They expect me to feed them, provide them with housing and medical care.
So she looked in her policy book to see what it takes to qualify.
My dogs get their first checks Friday.
.
Damn, this is a great country!


http://diva-sales.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/4_wet_dogs_by_water.112182931_std.jpg

You'd probably like welfare more if you realized most people on it are White Americans.

Mach1
10-19-2010, 10:53 AM
Still waiting for all my FREE stuff.

stlrtruck
10-19-2010, 12:08 PM
You'd probably like welfare more if you realized most people on it are White Americans.


I don't give a rats arse who is on it, I think the government needs to do a better job of controlling it. What some people on welfare get away with is absolutely ridiculous. While I'm sure there are plenty who need it, and use it accordingly, there are those who abuse the system, are lazy, and won't do a damn thing to help themselves all the while holding their hands out.

If people are gathering welfare, then take those who are abusing the system and put them to work on the farms picking strawberries or what have you. You know the jobs no one truly wants but people bitch about the illegals doing, put those welfare recepients on those jobs, and at least make them help the system.

venom
10-19-2010, 12:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI





Why do Liberals love government dependence, and loathe self sufficiency???

GBMelBlount
10-19-2010, 09:28 PM
You'd probably like welfare more if you realized most people on it are White Americans.

Of course, statistically how could it not be.

Good point though, the "apathy" and feelings of entitlement created by government handouts is not race discriminatory. It destroys the will of people of all races.

JonM229
10-19-2010, 10:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI





Why do Liberals love government dependence, and loathe self sufficiency???

She's obviously a conservative plant. Much like the liberal ones you see at Tea Party rallies holding racist signs.

GBMelBlount
10-19-2010, 10:03 PM
She's obviously a conservative plant.

Unfortunately I think she is the "real thing" :chuckle:

Which is why I never count Obama, or any liberal, out of a political race.

venom
10-20-2010, 08:55 AM
Time to take out The Trash Day-- this is sooo funny



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aoo9tT19dZA&feature=player_embedded#