In light of Ben’s finale, where does he rank all time?

[DesertSteel]

Where do you have Ben in the list of all time great QBs?

[vasteeler]

Psh...#1 but I've always been a little bias. Realistically... Top 5. My vote shouldn't count though. He could be the 50th best QB and I'd still rank him number 1... ��

[ALLD]

Top 20 compared to Joe Montana #1.

[Rotorhead]

I guess you would have to list all the QBs better than him . . . Probably out of the top 10 but in the top 20 for sure. He does have 2 SB rings. How would you rate that compared to Elway or Marino? Better than Favre at backyard scramble ball? He was the best of his class for sure.

[DesertSteel]

Interesting that some don't feel he's even in the top 25. I'd like to know the 25 QBs better than him.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Interesting that some don't feel he's even in the top 25. I'd like to know the 25 QBs better than him.

Ben is ranked #31 on this list:

https://www.lineups.com/articles/top-50-quarterbacks-all-time/

[Steeler-in-west]

I can see Montana, Manning, Unitas and Brady ranked ahead of him. After that an argument can be made to go no 5. Top 10 easily at least

[vasteeler]

Outside of the top 25!? Hmmm... Must be Willy, edman, steelersdude.

[fansince'76]

Outside of the top 25!? Hmmm... Must be Willy, edman, steelersdude.

:chuckle:

Actually, you can click on the number of votes in any category to see who voted where, but I got a good chuckle from your post anyway.

[cubanstogie]

Outside of the top 25!? Hmmm... Must be Willy, edman, steelersdude.
My initial vote was outside 25, I didn’t put a ton of thought in it. I’d probably go a little lower to 20th. Ben has longevity in his corner which counts for something, it’s hard to compare with a guy like Staubach or Bradshaw in different eras with a lot less games in career. I grew up watching Elway, Favre , warren moon and like the way they can carry a team, where as Ben has better stats. Jim Kelly brought his team to 4 SB’s. Mahomes hasn’t been in league that long but I put him ahead of Ben.

[hawaiiansteeler]

if Ben only had studied more film and been a better leader like Peyton...

[DesertSteel]

Ben is ranked #31 on this list:

https://www.lineups.com/articles/top-50-quarterbacks-all-time/
Theismann, Simms, McNabb, Cunningham, et al, ahead of Ben??? Is the writer a stand-up comedian???

Article supposedly written in April 2021 but says about Ben that he is likely to play a few more seasons? Lol

[DesertSteel]

:chuckle:

Actually, you can click on the number of votes in any category to see who voted where, but I got a good chuckle from your post anyway.
That feature doesn't work for everybody.

[Mojouw]

15-25 feels like the right range.

closer to 20-25 for me. but lower is not without reason

[vasteeler]

:chuckle:

Actually, you can click on the number of votes in any category to see who voted where, but I got a good chuckle from your post anyway.

Yeah, I was just being a smart ass lol.

[DesertSteel]

After the top 10, which he is not, it kinda comes down to taste because it’s very muddy with the 11-20 group. Guys like Fouts and Aikman. I can’t say that either of them are better than Ben.

[Born2Steel]

In his class...#1.

In his generation...#3/4

All-Time Greats...I'm just glad we've had 2 in this conversation.

[86WARD]

I’d say 15-20 All-Time. During his career…3-5 at a given time. Really the only thing he hasn’t done was win an MVP.

[steelerdude15]

Outside of the top 25!? Hmmm... Must be Willy, edman, steelersdude.

Are you talking about steeldude or me because I’d have Ben in my top 15 at least.

[vasteeler]

Are you talking about steeldude or me because I’d have Ben in my top 15 at least.

My fault, buddy... Yes, steeldude.

[steelerdude15]

It’s all good. Thanks for the clarification. :)

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

My fault, buddy... Yes, steeldude.

Yeah, he ranked James Harrison as a better QB than Ben was.

[Lloydwoodsonjr]

Outside of the top 25!? Hmmm... Must be Willy, edman, steelersdude.

It is more absurd to put Ben top 10 all-time than outside of the top 25 but I don't see anyone complaining about putting him top 10. Weird.

Brady, Montana, Peyton, Rodgers, Young, Warner, Unitas and Favre all had 2 or more MVPs. So let's put multiple time MVPs ahead of Ben. That leaves 2 spots to fit Ben in. Is Ben better than Patrick Mahomes? Dan Marino? Drew Brees?

[willy]

nfl.com had him at 19 out of 25 in 2019

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-25-quarterbacks-of-all-time-patriots-tom-brady-leads-list-0ap3000001035041

[Lloydwoodsonjr]

nfl.com had him at 19 out of 25 in 2019

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-25-quarterbacks-of-all-time-patriots-tom-brady-leads-list-0ap3000001035041

That's pretty far from 10th. That list omitted a lot of great QBs. I don't see how Otto Graham
isn't there when he was miles ahead in his era.

Why is Ben ahead of Warner on that list when Warner won 2x MVP awards? Warner is also one of the best playoff performers ever.

[vasteeler]

That's pretty far from 10th. That list omitted a lot of great QBs. I don't see how Otto Graham
isn't there when he was miles ahead in his era.

Why is Ben ahead of Warner on that list when Warner won 2x MVP awards? Warner is also one of the best playoff performers ever.

So, because TJ Watt hasn't earned MVP or even DPOY does that mean he hasn't been the best defensive player over the last four years? You know as well as I do no matter the stats they would never give that award to Ben. For what it's worth I would put Ben above Warner, Brees and Farve... Elway too.

[vasteeler]

It is more absurd to put Ben top 10 all-time than outside of the top 25 but I don't see anyone complaining about putting him top 10. Weird.

Brady, Montana, Peyton, Rodgers, Young, Warner, Unitas and Favre all had 2 or more MVPs. So let's put multiple time MVPs ahead of Ben. That leaves 2 spots to fit Ben in. Is Ben better than Patrick Mahomes? Dan Marino? Drew Brees?

Lol...I didn't put him top ten. I put him #1

[Mojouw]

I like the poll. I like the discussion.

But it is clear that there are about seven or eight different definitions of "best" floating around at the same time.

Hard to discuss without all being on the same page.

For me...the quickest route to rankings has always been that you have to pick one guy for one drive for the game winning TD against a great defense. Who are you taking?

In that scenario I can think about somewhere around a dozen or so guys that I definitely pick before Ben. Then I figure another handful that I would...but others would not. And then leave a few spots for some of the current guys to elbow their way into this list and then you have my "ranking".

Nice and speculative and based on nothing tangible :)

[vasteeler]

I like the poll. I like the discussion.

But it is clear that there are about seven or eight different definitions of "best" floating around at the same time.

Hard to discuss without all being on the same page.

For me...the quickest route to rankings has always been that you have to pick one guy for one drive for the game winning TD against a great defense. Who are you taking?

In that scenario I can think about somewhere around a dozen or so guys that I definitely pick before Ben. Then I figure another handful that I would...but others would not. And then leave a few spots for some of the current guys to elbow their way into this list and then you have my "ranking".

Nice and speculative and based on nothing tangible :)

You mean like Ben did in Superbowl 43!
And was a Mendenhall fumble away from doing it again in Superbowl 45

OK, I'll stop now... Lol

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

And was a Mendenhall fumble away from doing it again in Superbowl 45

OK, I'll stop now... Lol

Do you mean a Ben Pick-6 in SB45?? or a David Johnson missed block?

[vasteeler]

Do you mean a Ben Pick-6 in SB45?? or a David Johnson missed block?

Crap... Forgot about the Pick 6:doh2:
He was still in position to bring us back until the fumble.

[Lloydwoodsonjr]

So, because TJ Watt hasn't earned MVP or even DPOY does that mean he hasn't been the best defensive player over the last four years? You know as well as I do no matter the stats they would never give that award to Ben. For what it's worth I would put Ben above Warner, Brees and Farve... Elway too.

Aaron Donald has been the best defensive player over the last four years. TJ has been the best this year.

You can subjectively but Roethlisberger over anyone you want but more objective observers won't.

[86WARD]

That's pretty far from 10th. That list omitted a lot of great QBs. I don't see how Otto Graham
isn't there when he was miles ahead in his era.

Why is Ben ahead of Warner on that list when Warner won 2x MVP awards? Warner is also one of the best playoff performers ever.

Ben beat Warner.

[Lloydwoodsonjr]

Ben beat Warner.

The Steelers beat the Cardinals. If any one player "beat Warner" it was James Harrison.

You're another person who thinks Eli Manning is better than Roethliaberger because he has the same number of Super Bowls and won MVP in both huh? It wasn't the Giants defense holding Brady to 14 points in a season he averaged 37?!

Me I think Brady is better than Eli Manning but not you using your own logic. Maybe rethink your logic?

[86WARD]

So Ben didn’t beat Warner, the Steelers did. So when Mike Tomlin doesn’t have a losing season but doesn’t win the Super Bowl, it’s his fault…not that the Steelers lost.

Gotcha.

For the record, Ben is far and away better than Eli. Brady is better than Eli.

[vasteeler]

Aaron Donald has been the best defensive player over the last four years. TJ has been the best this year.

You can subjectively but Roethlisberger over anyone you want but more objective observers won't.

Nope

[Craic]

I vacillated between 15 and 20. But that's without looking at all available QBs in that discussion and so I'm sure I forgot many. If I'm conservative, I'd have to say top twenty-five, and perhaps top twenty. Ben just seemed to miss being in the highest echelon of QBs in most years, but he far outplayed everyone else (again, most of the time). Perhaps a better question is, what QBs that played during Ben's career would you rather have had (and assuming that QB starts in 2004 regardless of when he actually played).

Players I'd Rather Have Had then Ben During Ben's Career
There's only a couple of names that come to mind.

Peyton Manning. Yeah, it's popular to hate on him at times, but he is perhaps the best pure QB we've seen since the start of free-agency outside of Dan Marino.
Patrick Mahomes is another. I remember hoping against hope that he'd somehow fall to us or that the Steelers would decide to trade up and get him and end any QB succession issues.


Players I Would Be Okay With Instead of Ben (but wouldn't swap for them)

Aaron Rodgers. I know he's not popular on this board at times but he's a very good and very consistent QB (the one thing Ben sometimes lacked was consistency through a season).
Drew Brees. Same reasons as Rodgers.
Kurt Warner is probably equal to Ben, maybe a better pure passer. But Ben has much better survival skills in the pocket. I wouldn't make that swap


However, both Manning and Brees played in controlled environments. Sure, they played well enough in weather as well, but would they have done so consistently?

Players Others May Mention

Brady. Nope. Neither Cowher nor Tomlin would have cheated with video tape or keeping the headset on in the QB helmet up to the snap, so Brady's learning curve would have been the same as anyone else's. Does he make it through that curve? Who knows. But I wouldn't take the chance.
Favre. In his prime, maybe, but he was too close to the end of his career and too much of a gunslinger for our system back in the day (yeah, even more than Ben). Also, his end-of-career drama would have been a headache the Steelers didn't need.


----------------------
So, back to the rankings . . . taking the above into consideration and including longevity and durability, I think 25 is a solid number for the bottom, and perhaps 10 or 15 is the highest. It's hard to judge as QBs in previous eras had so much more to deal with and today's stats are bloated due to the rules.

[Lloydwoodsonjr]

I vacillated between 15 and 20. But that's without looking at all available QBs in that discussion and so I'm sure I forgot many. If I'm conservative, I'd have to say top twenty-five, and perhaps top twenty. Ben just seemed to miss being in the highest echelon of QBs in most years, but he far outplayed everyone else (again, most of the time). Perhaps a better question is, what QBs that played during Ben's career would you rather have had (and assuming that QB starts in 2004 regardless of when he actually played).

Players I'd Rather Have Had then Ben During Ben's Career
There's only a couple of names that come to mind.

Peyton Manning. Yeah, it's popular to hate on him at times, but he is perhaps the best pure QB we've seen since the start of free-agency outside of Dan Marino.
Patrick Mahomes is another. I remember hoping against hope that he'd somehow fall to us or that the Steelers would decide to trade up and get him and end any QB succession issues.


Players I Would Be Okay With Instead of Ben (but wouldn't swap for them)

Aaron Rodgers. I know he's not popular on this board at times but he's a very good and very consistent QB (the one thing Ben sometimes lacked was consistency through a season).
Drew Brees. Same reasons as Rodgers.
Kurt Warner is probably equal to Ben, maybe a better pure passer. But Ben has much better survival skills in the pocket. I wouldn't make that swap


However, both Manning and Brees played in controlled environments. Sure, they played well enough in weather as well, but would they have done so consistently?

Players Others May Mention

Brady. Nope. Neither Cowher nor Tomlin would have cheated with video tape or keeping the headset on in the QB helmet up to the snap, so Brady's learning curve would have been the same as anyone else's. Does he make it through that curve? Who knows. But I wouldn't take the chance.
Favre. In his prime, maybe, but he was too close to the end of his career and too much of a gunslinger for our system back in the day (yeah, even more than Ben). Also, his end-of-career drama would have been a headache the Steelers didn't need.


----------------------
So, back to the rankings . . . taking the above into consideration and including longevity and durability, I think 25 is a solid number for the bottom, and perhaps 10 or 15 is the highest. It's hard to judge as QBs in previous eras had so much more to deal with and today's stats are bloated due to the rules.

This was a great breakdown thank you. I think it's an accurate assessment while still being honest about your personal bias. I think most people who aren't Steelers fans would rank Ben top 20 or top 25 especially as recency bias fades.

[steel striker]

Okay I know this maybe does not count for QB play but name a QB alive or dead that makes THE TACKLE of Nick Harper against the Colts in the 2005 playoffs? There is one QB and, he is #7 for the Steelers!

[bayz101]

Top 5 QB of all-time statistically in several major categories, two-time Super Bowl champion, top 3 in career game-winning drives, NFL passing yards leader in year 15...all while being sacked 550+ times behind two different periods of the worst offensive lines in recent memory - one of which he won a Super Bowl with.

I guess all of that makes the case for the Hall of Fame, but I'd say the career statistics (he's at least top 5-10 in nearly all major QB categories), Super Bowl wins and the challenges presented to him to achieve all of that makes the case for at least top ten QB of all-time.

What concerns me is 7 people voted him outside of the top twenty altogether and 11 people just inside the top twenty. I wonder if a few people I've seen this season managed to vote 2-3 times. :chuckle:

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I think it's comical to think the likes of Brady and Manning surviving behind some of the lines we've had in Bens 18 years. :chuckle:

[W&M_Steeler]

I voted top 15. Ben was a truly great QB, and I think it's difficult to say that there were 15 others definitively better than him. Two Super Bowl wins, three Super Bowl appearances, and top five in most QB counting stats- all very impressive. Ben was at his best late in games, and his game winning drive in Super Bowl 43 was one of the greatest of all time. He should have been named MVP of SB 43; any other QB would have been after that performance.

I think the thing that sets Ben apart from his peers is that he could have thrived in any era of the NFL given the style of his play. I'm not sure that the same could be said for Brady or Manning or Brees or maybe even Rodgers. Ben had all the tools, and his physical size and power were unmatched by any other QB of his caliber. During his prime, his ability to shrug off defenders to extend plays was truly remarkable. His toughness was legendary- who can forget when Haloti Ngata broke Ben's nose (I believe intentionally) in the first quarter of a game, only to have Ben stay in and lead the Steelers to a win despite having a nose that was described as "crushed like cornflakes". I've heard it said that Ben isn't the best QB to ever play football, but he might be the best overall football player to ever play QB. I think there's a lot of truth to that, and I will miss his hardnosed style of play (I have already been missing it during his late career decline).

Ben's problem is that he was always overshadowed by his contemporaries, so he was never the clear-cut best or even second-best QB at any given time. Brady is arguably the greatest QB of all time, and P. Manning and Aaron Rodgers both have arguments for being in the top 5. Drew Brees is also a HoF QB with historically great stats. Ben's personality compounded that problem, as he was never the most charismatic or media savvy figure, and as a result his early career sexual assault allegations made him basically a pariah to the national media despite no convictions and no solid evidence. He has never received the acclaim or attention that he should have received- him being denied Super Bowl 43 MVP being a perfect example of that. He never had a chance at something like MVP or OPOY or All Pro or anything else voted on by media, especially given the fierce competition from his peers.

He (and the Steelers) had some unfortunate luck in the mid 2010s that cost them SB chances that could have solidified Ben's status and elevated him to top ten. The Steelers lost their starting running back in the last game of the season in 2011, 2014, and 2015, and losing Shazier in 2017 cut out the heart of the defense that year. Had Lev B or D Williams been healthy for the 2015 playoffs, or had Shazier been healthy for the 2017 playoffs, then I think Ben would have had one more Super Bowl. Instead, the Steelers ended up having to depend on the likes of Fitz Touissant and post-injury Sean Spence. The QB is the most important player on the field, and Ben consistently elevated his teams, but there are some injuries that are too much to overcome. In retrospect, that 2015 run was particularly impressive, and Ben had that team in a position to win in the 4th quarter in Denver against the eventual Super Bowl champions and their formidable defense despite having a shoulder injury, and despite not having LB, AB, or D. Will.

As for the other historically great QBs, there are only 26 modern era QBs in the HoF: https://www.profootballhof.com/heroes-of-the-game/positions/ Brady and Rodgers are locks, so that makes 28.

To put things in perspective, those of you who rank Ben between 20 and 25 are saying that Ben will be one of the worst QBs in the Hall of Fame. Those of you who rank Ben outside of the top 25 are essentially arguing that Ben is possibly not a Hall of Famer at all.

Looking at that list, I can't find 15 QBs I'd definitely take over Ben. Would you really take Dan Fouts or Bob Griese or Joe Namath or George Blanda or Kurt Warner or Jim Kelly or Troy Aikman, to name a few, over Ben? I wouldn't.

Warner in particular is a borderline candidate to me, and his prolonged mid-career slump from 2002 to 2006 should have disqualified him from contention (and I think it would have but for his incredible story). I'd take Ben over him anyday. Despite the stats, I'd take Ben over Brees too, no question. Brees needed a specific situation to thrive, and he flamed out on a Chargers team that Philip Rivers was able to turn into a success (and I'd rank Rivers below Ben). Put Ben on the Saints and Brees on the Steelers, and I'd bet that Ben would have Brees-like stats, and I'd bet Brees would have retired circa 2012 after being pounded into dust. Ben had his ups and downs, but he never had a slump like Brees, let alone Warner. I think it's far too early to have Mahomes in the conversation. He has had a great start- let's see how his career evolves. Ben circa 2015 was a much different player than Ben circa 2005. Let's see how Mahomes manages as age erodes his physical talent. For me, Ben is in the top half of HoF QBs- maybe not top 10 all time, but not too far from it either.

[86WARD]

After this thread, I’m more convinced he’s Top-15.

[W&M_Steeler]

That's pretty far from 10th. That list omitted a lot of great QBs. I don't see how Otto Graham
isn't there when he was miles ahead in his era.

Why is Ben ahead of Warner on that list when Warner won 2x MVP awards? Warner is also one of the best playoff performers ever.

Look at Warner's career from 2002-2006 and you'll see why Ben is above Warner. Yes, Warner won two MVPs, but he peaked during an exceptionally weak time for NFL QBs. The late 90s/early 2000s was after the prime of the Montana/Marino/Elway/Kelly/Aikman/Young group and before the prime of Manning/Brady/Rodgers/Roethlisberger/Rivers. Warner's main competition was Favre and Steve McNair (who also somehow managed to win an MVP during the late 1990s/early 2000s). Hell, Rich Gannon of all people won MVP in 2002. Add in the fact that Warner has been a media darling since he emerged and it's no surprise. Comparing overall bodies of work, I take Ben over Warner without hesitation. Warner's highs might have been higher than Ben's, but Warner's lows were much lower than Ben's. Remember, Warner's mid-career floundering is the reasons the Giants had the Number 4 pick in 2004 and the reason they were in the position to take Rivers and trade him for Eli. Warner is a borderline HoF at best, and given his prolonged mid-career slump I wouldn't have voted for him.

[Mojouw]

Play it out. And it gets hard, at least for me, to get him under 15. Looking at the different eras and arguing that Ben was never in the top 2-3 of his own era, I'm taking the top 2 from different eras ahead of Ben.No order to this, just coming up with names. Could swap out Guy A for Guy B or whatever.

Gotta give some love to the older era guys. So take a couple of names from that grouping. Say, YA Tittle and Otto Graham for the early part of the modern era. Then throw in say Len Dawson and Unitas for the 50's and early 60's. Say Staubach and Bradshaw for the 1970s.

Then move into the 80's and forward. This is where i have to kinda expand things. I think Elway, Montana, Marino, and Moon were all better than Ben. So we are at 10 already. Then I have to also put Favre and Jim Kelly ahead of him. I think Steve Young as well...but would be willing to let that one go. So that's 12 or 13.

Then add in a few names that are hard to separate from the "tier" I see Ben being in: Fouts, Aikman, Stabler, Tarkenton, Brees, Rivers. And it is pretty easy, for me, to get to 20 names before I am like "Ben HAS to be ranked ahead of that dude." That is, in my mind, taking NOTHING away from Ben. This is incredibly rarified air that he is hanging out in.

[86WARD]

Play it out. And it gets hard, at least for me, to get him under 15. Looking at the different eras and arguing that Ben was never in the top 2-3 of his own era, I'm taking the top 2 from different eras ahead of Ben.No order to this, just coming up with names. Could swap out Guy A for Guy B or whatever.

Gotta give some love to the older era guys. So take a couple of names from that grouping. Say, YA Tittle and Otto Graham for the early part of the modern era. Then throw in say Len Dawson and Unitas for the 50's and early 60's. Say Staubach and Bradshaw for the 1970s.

Then move into the 80's and forward. This is where i have to kinda expand things. I think Elway, Montana, Marino, and Moon were all better than Ben. So we are at 10 already. Then I have to also put Favre and Jim Kelly ahead of him. I think Steve Young as well...but would be willing to let that one go. So that's 12 or 13.

Then add in a few names that are hard to separate from the "tier" I see Ben being in: Fouts, Aikman, Stabler, Tarkenton, Brees, Rivers. And it is pretty easy, for me, to get to 20 names before I am like "Ben HAS to be ranked ahead of that dude." That is, in my mind, taking NOTHING away from Ben. This is incredibly rarified air that he is hanging out in.

Just from your list, I would probably put him ahead of 5-6 of those guys.

I think it’s hard to criticize anyones list though because you don’t know what criteria each person is basing it on and what weighs heavier than the other in their mind.

[Mojouw]

Just from your list, I would probably put him ahead of 5-6 of those guys.

I think it’s hard to criticize anyones list though because you don’t know what criteria each person is basing it on and what weighs heavier than the other in their mind.

Great point. I don't think there is a right/wrong here. Just because every single person, as you pointed out, is using a totally different set of parameters.

I think it is reasonable to put Ben as high as like 12-15 and as low as 23-25. Outside of those two extremes, I have a hard time following the logic. But that doesn't mean it isn't there.

[W&M_Steeler]

Great point. I don't think there is a right/wrong here. Just because every single person, as you pointed out, is using a totally different set of parameters.

I think it is reasonable to put Ben as high as like 12-15 and as low as 23-25. Outside of those two extremes, I have a hard time following the logic. But that doesn't mean it isn't there.

I agree generally, though I think it's hard to come up with 20 names, as I don't think the players from the pre-Super Bowl era (and particularly from before 1960) can really be compared to modern NFL players. I think if you could put prime Ben in a time machine, he would have been a dominant QB in the 1930s-1960s given his physical tools. It's hard to imagine how Arnie Herber or Otto Graham or Sid Luckman would have fared in 2014. Even more recent players like Bobby Layne, Y.A. Tittle, and Bart Starr are hard to compare. So some of the variability IMO comes from how to rank those players from 50+ years ago. I would give Ben the benefit of the doubt over most of them, because he came up in a different environment that was much more competitive. I can respect arguments that some of those players should remain top 20, though.

I think Ben is at worst a half tier behind guys like Bradshaw, Elway, and Favre, but ahead of the list of guys you rank as Ben's tier (as well as guys like Jim Kelly). Ben is the closest thing to a Bradshaw/Elway/Favre of his generation IMO, and I think I'd be a tough decision to to choose between prime Ben, prime Favre, prime Bradshaw, and prime Elway.

Brady and Montana are at the top for me (though I am to an extent waiting for the inevitable Brady drug scandal- he's starting to remind me of Sosa/McGuire/Bonds in terms of seemingly impossible performance). Aaron Rodgers has an absolutely incredible TD / INT ratio and is incredibly impressive from a technical perspective. Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, and P. Manning helped shape the QB position into what it is today. After that, perhaps Elway, Favre, Bradshaw, and Staubach before Ben starts to come into the argument.

[Mojouw]

I agree generally, though I think it's hard to come up with 20 names, as I don't think the players from the pre-Super Bowl era (and particularly from before 1960) can really be compared to modern NFL players. I think if you could put prime Ben in a time machine, he would have been a dominant QB in the 1930s-1960s given his physical tools. It's hard to imagine how Arnie Herber or Otto Graham or Sid Luckman would have fared in 2014. Even more recent players like Bobby Layne, Y.A. Tittle, and Bart Starr are hard to compare. So some of the variability IMO comes from how to rank those players from 50+ years ago. I would give Ben the benefit of the doubt over most of them, because he came up in a different environment that was much more competitive. I can respect arguments that some of those players should remain top 20, though.

I think Ben is at worst a half tier behind guys like Bradshaw, Elway, and Favre, but ahead of the list of guys you rank as Ben's tier (as well as guys like Jim Kelly). Ben is the closest thing to a Bradshaw/Elway/Favre of his generation IMO, and I think I'd be a tough decision to to choose between prime Ben, prime Favre, prime Bradshaw, and prime Elway.

Brady and Montana are at the top for me (though I am to an extent waiting for the inevitable Brady drug scandal- he's starting to remind me of Sosa/McGuire/Bonds in terms of seemingly impossible performance). Aaron Rodgers has an absolutely incredible TD / INT ratio and is incredibly impressive from a technical perspective. Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, and P. Manning helped shape the QB position into what it is today. After that, perhaps Elway, Favre, Bradshaw, and Staubach before Ben starts to come into the argument.

I figure that you have to level up those early era players. If YA Tittle did what he did with no access to all the modern training, equipment, coaching, and player development imagine what he’s going to do with access to all that since Day 1.

For me, Elway and Kelly are well ahead of Ben. But I can totally see where others don’t see it that way.

The hardest are the guys from the 60s and 70s for me. Like is Ben better than Fouts? He seems to be but Fouts numbers for his era are eye catching. What about Tarkenton? No idea. I think Tark is a bit better but it’s just so hard to tell.

[Born2Steel]

I don't think there's enough common ground to compare Ben with QBs from other eras. The greats from each era hold their own standard.

https://www.profootballhof.com/all-time-passer-rating/

How many more names will become red over the next decade?

[W&M_Steeler]

I don't think there's enough common ground to compare Ben with QBs from other eras. The greats from each era hold their own standard.

https://www.profootballhof.com/all-time-passer-rating/

How many more names will become red over the next decade?

Brady and Rodgers are absolute locks, and Rivers and Eli probably make it (Eli being the modern version of Joe Namath- someone whose skill & stats wouldn't otherwise have gotten them in, but who had some amazing and historical post-season victories that nevertheless open the door to their induction).

After that, there could be a long gap. There really weren't all that many good QBs drafted between 2006 and 2015. Jay Cutler isn't making the HoF. Matt Ryan is the next plausible contender, and he's on the bubble and probably a "no" right now, particularly in light of the humiliating and career-defining Super Bowl collapse. Joe Flacco isn't making the HoF. Then come Matt Stafford and Cam Newton, who are probably "no" too, though Stafford might still have time to change his trajectory. For the class of 2012, Luck most likely retired too early to make the Hall, and Tannehill doesn't seem to be on track to make it. It's too soon to tell whether Russell Wilson will make it, but Kirk Cousins isn't going to make it. Derek Carr started hot but has declined and doesn't look like he's headed to Canton; neither does Teddy Bridgewater. Jamies Winston and Marcus Mariota don't seem to be anywhere close to making the HoF.

Given that list of players, it wouldn't surprise me if the next QB inducted after E. Manning / Rivers / Roethlisberger / Brady / Rodgers is an old timer like Ken Anderson.

Of the group drafted from 2016 to today, Mahomes, Josh Allen, Burrow, and Herbert seem like the beginnings of the next great generation of QBs (Watson too if he avoids jail time, maybe Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray, and possibly Dak and Wentz, though the last two need to step things up a notch soon), but they have many years left.

[Steelerchad]

He's probably #5 of his era. And I'm not counting the brand new guys like Mahomes. Players that overlapped the majority of his career.
#1 Brady
#2 Manning
#3 Rodgers
#4 Brees
#5 Ben
There's probably 10 or so more you could put ahead of him all time.
Montana, Marino, Elway for sure.
Maybe these guys as well, Kelly, Bradshaw, Staubach, Young, Favre.
And he's certainly better than Eli and Rivers from his era as well.

[86WARD]

He's probably #5 of his era. And I'm not counting the brand new guys like Mahomes. Players that overlapped the majority of his career.
#1 Brady
#2 Manning
#3 Rodgers
#4 Brees
#5 Ben
There's probably 10 or so more you could put ahead of him all time.
Montana, Marino, Elway for sure.
Maybe these guys as well, Kelly, Bradshaw, Staubach, Young, Favre.
And he's certainly better than Eli and Rivers from his era as well.

I wouldn’t say Elway for sure. You can make a case that Ben is better than Elway.

[W&M_Steeler]

I wouldn’t say Elway for sure. You can make a case that Ben is better than Elway.

I agree that the Ben / Elway debate is closer than Steelerchad implies.

I would argue against Brees being clearly better than Ben. I know that's a minority position, but Brees compiled stats in a dome in a pass always offense. His mediocrity with the Chargers proves to me that Brees thrived in his specific circumstances and would not have been as successful elsewhere. At most, I think Ben and Brees are on the same tier despite Brees' gaudy stats.

[Mojouw]

Wow. I must totally under-value Ben.

I just don't see Ben and Elway as close.

Elway had a better arm, was more accurate, more mobile, just as tough, and drug worse teams to better results.

Maybe I just saw too many iconic Elway moments at a formative stage. Again...not saying anyone is wrong...but trying to see where folks are coming from. It is a fun conversation.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Wow. I must totally under-value Ben.

I just don't see Ben and Elway as close.

Elway had a better arm, was more accurate, more mobile, just as tough, and drug worse teams to better results.

Maybe I just saw too many iconic Elway moments at a formative stage. Again...not saying anyone is wrong...but trying to see where folks are coming from. It is a fun conversation.

same here, I rank Elway higher than Ben.

I think as Steelers fans we are a bit biased...

[cubanstogie]

Wow. I must totally under-value Ben.

I just don't see Ben and Elway as close.

Elway had a better arm, was more accurate, more mobile, just as tough, and drug worse teams to better results.

Maybe I just saw too many iconic Elway moments at a formative stage. Again...not saying anyone is wrong...but trying to see where folks are coming from. It is a fun conversation.
100 percent agree. I can’t put Ben in same league as Elway. Closer to Eli and Rivers than Elway IMO. I do think he’s better than those two but pretty comparable.

[W&M_Steeler]

same here, I rank Elway higher than Ben.

I think as Steelers fans we are a bit biased...

I actually think we might be a bit more biased to the negative against Ben right now given that we've been living with his decline the past few years. It's sometimes hard to remember how great Ben was when he was younger, at least for me. Watching some of his old highlights the past week or so has been a mild shock as I remember how good he was. On the other hand, those of us of a certain age tend to view those QBs of the 80s with rose colored glasses and put the Montana/Marino/Elway on a pedestal.

I'm not definitively arguing that Ben is better than Elway, I just think it's a closer call than some seem to believe. I think Ben was arguably as talented as Elway. My main knock on Ben is that he could be streaky and inconsistent- he'd light the league on fire for a few weeks, then inexplicably have a game or two where he was meh and threw a bunch of boneheaded picks. I'm not sure whether that was the case for Elway.

[86WARD]

Wow. I must totally under-value Ben.

I just don't see Ben and Elway as close.

Elway had a better arm, was more accurate, more mobile, just as tough, and drug worse teams to better results.

Maybe I just saw too many iconic Elway moments at a formative stage. Again...not saying anyone is wrong...but trying to see where folks are coming from. It is a fun conversation.

Elway had a 56.9% completion percentage. Ben has a 64.4% completion percentage.

Elway couldn’t get over the top until Terrell Davis showed up (I guess that’s the story people go with to warrant his induction to the HOF). A lot of those moments came against a very, VERY week AFC at the time.

From 1983 to 1992, Elway put up almost the exact same statistics that Dave Krieg did.

He was a fun player to watch but I think he’s one of the most over rated QBs in the league…not saying his play was similar to Mike Vick but he was fun to watch in the same way Vick was fun to watch.

I mean we are talking about a #7 and a #7 who wears #7 because of #7 and modeled his play after that same #7. [emoji23]

I’m curious as to what people see about Elway that is so much better than Ben? Elway was more mobile but what else?

[cubanstogie]

Elway had a 56.9% completion percentage. Ben has a 64.4% completion percentage.

Elway couldn’t get over the top until Terrell Davis showed up (I guess that’s the story people go with to warrant his induction to the HOF). A lot of those moments came against a very, VERY week AFC at the time.

From 1983 to 1992, Elway put up almost the exact same statistics that Dave Krieg did.

He was a fun player to watch but I think he’s one of the most over rated QBs in the league…not saying his play was similar to Mike Vick but he was fun to watch in the same way Vick was fun to watch.

I mean we are talking about a #7 and a #7 who wears #7 because of #7 and modeled his play after that same #7. [emoji23]

I’m curious as to what people see about Elway that is so much better than Ben? Elway was more mobile but what else?
A guy who played in 5 SB overrated? TD had a short great career, his other backs were guys like Sammy winder. I’d have to Google receivers to even see who he had. Sharpe at TE. If you had 2 minutes left in a playoff game needing to score Elway would be my first choice.

[Craic]

A guy who played in 5 SB overrated? TD had a short great career, his other backs were guys like Sammy winder. I’d have to Google receivers to even see who he had. Sharpe at TE. If you had 2 minutes left in a playoff game needing to score Elway would be my first choice.

See, I don't know. Elway in his prime or Ben in his prime. Who was better at game-winning drives? Looking at GWDs in general (I know you said in the playoffs, but let's look big picture first. Ben had 52 over 18 years, which leaves him at 2.9 (2.88 to be exact) game-winning drives per year. Elway had 40 over 16 years, which leaves him with 2.5 game-winning drives per year. And, the thing about game-winning drives is that it isn't as susceptible to era issues since what matters is the drive, not how many times a player can pass the ball. Now, there's an argument to be made that it's easier to come back in today's game. But conversely, it's easier to have a game-winning drive wiped out by the other team scoring in today's game as well. So, the needle ticks a little towards Ben here.

Now, for playoffs, Elway had 2 more GWDs than Ben (6 and 4, respectively), and 1 more 4th quarter comeback (4 and 3, respectively), and that's with Ben playing one extra post-season. But let's also remember that Ben played with a very good defense (much better than what Elway had for the most part). So, I'd like to see GWD possible vs. completed before I make a decision there. But for right now, I have to admit the needle does tick a tad towards Elway here, until I see GWDs possible vs. completed.

Incidentally, for 4th quarter comebacks in the regular season, Ben has 40 total (2.22 average per year) Elway has 31 (1.93 average per year). And except for this year, all seasons were 16 game seasons for both QBs. In the end, between the two, I would be comfortable with either QB in their prime for game-winning drives be in regular season or playoffs. Now, If you want to talk about Bradshaw, I'd take Ben or Elway every day and twice on Sunday over Bradshaw . . . during the regular season. But in the playoffs? Bradshaw would be under center every single time.

[CV1]

14-8 Playoffs vs 13-9
2 of 5 vs 2 of 3

Just those two metrics, John is better… but I hated JE and the playoff games against him… still remember us intercepting JE early and Norm missing the field goal and losing that game by 3 [emoji37]or losing by 1 with Bubby

The other metrics I find somewhat era specific… Ben had the better statistics, but imagine Elway playing todays game or just the past 6 years.

Anyway… Ben’s better


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[86WARD]

A guy who played in 5 SB overrated? TD had a short great career, his other backs were guys like Sammy winder. I’d have to Google receivers to even see who he had. Sharpe at TE. If you had 2 minutes left in a playoff game needing to score Elway would be my first choice.

A. He played in a very, VERY week AFC.
B. He was very ordinary in the playoffs. 27/21 TD/INT, Only 54% completion, <80 QBR.
C. 7-7 Playoff Record before Terrell Davis arrived, again, very ordinary.

Doesn’t mean he’s not good. He’s not Top-15 in my opinion. He alone didn’t get them to the Super Bowls…and he lost a few of them…

Elway had 5 elite seasons. 1993-1998. Similar numbers to Chris Chandler over that period of time.

So to sum up via numbers alone (same time period) a combined career of Dave Krieg into Chris Chandler and these are John Elway’s numbers…to put it in perspective. Clearly he’s better than those two…but his numbers…not that impressive.

If TD comes with Elway, maybe I take him for a 2:00 drill in the playoffs…if no TD, there’s a lot others I’d take before…

[cubanstogie]

A. He played in a very, VERY week AFC.
B. He was very ordinary in the playoffs. 27/21 TD/INT, Only 54% completion, <80 QBR.
C. 7-7 Playoff Record before Terrell Davis arrived, again, very ordinary.

Doesn’t mean he’s not good. He’s not Top-15 in my opinion. He alone didn’t get them to the Super Bowls…and he lost a few of them…

Elway had 5 elite seasons. 1993-1998. Similar numbers to Chris Chandler over that period of time.

So to sum up via numbers alone (same time period) a combined career of Dave Krieg into Chris Chandler and these are John Elway’s numbers…to put it in perspective. Clearly he’s better than those two…but his numbers…not that impressive.

If TD comes with Elway, maybe I take him for a 2:00 drill in the playoffs…if no TD, there’s a lot others I’d take before…
But but but Ben has only won one game or something in 12 years against a starting QB in playoffs. Pretty sure I botched it I hadn’t read that thread after it derailed, lol. In all seriousness I am going by memory and watching playoffs as a teenager when Elway was in league. He had amazing talent. An argument could be made for either guy, very tough to compare different eras.

[86WARD]

But but but Ben has only won one game or something in 12 years against a starting QB in playoffs. Pretty sure I botched it I hadn’t read that thread after it derailed, lol. In all seriousness I am going by memory and watching playoffs as a teenager when Elway was in league. He had amazing talent. An argument could be made for either guy, very tough to compare different eras.

Agree.

[Mojouw]

Elway played a decent portion of his career before the salary cap. Rosters couldn’t change as much. He covered a bunch of flaws on some otherwise high average Broncos teams.

But this is also based on my fuzzy early teens memory.

Mostly only saw him play in playoff games and SB losses.

But compared to Troy Polamalu and James Farrior how do Atwater and Mecklenberg look? Or were those Broncos defenses better than I’m remembering?

[Steeler-in-west]

As far as Elway and Ben - very similar styles. Maybe Ben was stronger in that he could shrug off more defenders, but Elway had the stronger arm. Maybe one of the strongest of all time,

“that’s not an arm that’s a gun” - Madden

[86WARD]

Elway played a decent portion of his career before the salary cap. Rosters couldn’t change as much. He covered a bunch of flaws on some otherwise high average Broncos teams.

But this is also based on my fuzzy early teens memory.

Mostly only saw him play in playoff games and SB losses.

But compared to Troy Polamalu and James Farrior how do Atwater and Mecklenberg look? Or were those Broncos defenses better than I’m remembering?

I think Mecklenberg and Atwater only played 4-5 seasons together? I’m pretty sure that the Mecklenberg defenses were really good at times and the not so good at times…

[Lloydwoodsonjr]

Elway played a decent portion of his career before the salary cap. Rosters couldn’t change as much. He covered a bunch of flaws on some otherwise high average Broncos teams.

But this is also based on my fuzzy early teens memory.

Mostly only saw him play in playoff games and SB losses.

But compared to Troy Polamalu and James Farrior how do Atwater and Mecklenberg look? Or were those Broncos defenses better than I’m remembering?

Ben had the best defense in NFL history in terms of continuity. Ben had a top 5 defense in yards allowed every one of his first 9 seasons except 2006 when the offense/ST turned the ball over 40 times. Defense was 1st in fewest points allowed 4x in that span. I don't think any other QB got as much help from their defense.

[Mojouw]

I think Mecklenberg and Atwater only played 4-5 seasons together? I’m pretty sure that the Mecklenberg defenses were really good at times and the not so good at times…

I feel like that’s right. I feel like they were the mainstays of the first cluster of SB teams. But I’m too lazy and not interested enough to run it down.

[Mojouw]

Ben had the best defense in NFL history in terms of continuity. Ben had a top 5 defense in yards allowed every one of his first 9 seasons except 2006 when the offense/ST turned the ball over 40 times. Defense was 1st in fewest points allowed 4x in that span. I don't think any other QB got as much help from their defense.

Also feels right.

Wonder how those Aikman Cowboys defenses grade out.

[Craic]

Elway played a decent portion of his career before the salary cap. Rosters couldn’t change as much. He covered a bunch of flaws on some otherwise high average Broncos teams.

But this is also based on my fuzzy early teens memory.

Mostly only saw him play in playoff games and SB losses.

But compared to Troy Polamalu and James Farrior how do Atwater and Mecklenberg look? Or were those Broncos defenses better than I’m remembering?

Growing up in the Seahawks market area, we saw quite a bit of the Broncos, especially when Seattle didn't play that week for some reason or when stations cut away to other games. We can look at stats all day (and I often do deep-dive into stats) but as much as I hated Elway back in the day (the Seahawks were my second favorite team until their fans ruined it after SB XL), he was amazing. I'd put him half a step down from Marino, Montana, Bradshaw (in the playoffs, not the regular season!), and the like. Bringing this back to Ben, I think on Ben's good days, he was in that same half-step down tier. But across his whole career, I'd say he was a full tier below Marino, Montana, and so on. Of course, anyone I can think of in that 1-step down tier is in the Hall of Fame. So, it's still very rarified air.

[Mojouw]

Growing up in the Seahawks market area, we saw quite a bit of the Broncos, especially when Seattle didn't play that week for some reason or when stations cut away to other games. We can look at stats all day (and I often do deep-dive into stats) but as much as I hated Elway back in the day (the Seahawks were my second favorite team until their fans ruined it after SB XL), he was amazing. I'd put him half a step down from Marino, Montana, Bradshaw (in the playoffs, not the regular season!), and the like. Bringing this back to Ben, I think on Ben's good days, he was in that same half-step down tier. But across his whole career, I'd say he was a full tier below Marino, Montana, and so on. Of course, anyone I can think of in that 1-step down tier is in the Hall of Fame. So, it's still very rarified air.

That’s about where I think I’m at as well.

At this point we’re talking about different flavors of incredible.

It’s a fun exercise and there, to my mind, is no “right” answer. Which is the fun of it.

[86WARD]

That’s about where I think I’m at as well.

At this point we’re talking about different flavors of incredible.

It’s a fun exercise and there, to my mind, is no “right” answer. Which is the fun of it.

Agree. “Different Flavors of Incredible” is a good way to put it…