Ben Roethlisberger: Not my job to deal with “player issues” like Chase Claypool

[Shoes]

Someone needs to demand more from Steelers receiver Chase Claypool (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/58431/chase-claypool). Someone other than quarterback Ben Roethlisberger (https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/11408/ben-roethlisberger).
After Thursday night’s loss to the Vikings, Roethlisberger made it clear that he doesn’t believe it’s his place to hold accountable Claypool or any other players who do things they shouldn’t do.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/12/10/ben-roethlisberger-not-my-job-to-deal-with-player-issues-like-chase-claypool/

[NCSteeler]

Disarray in the Tomlin house. Shocking!

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Mojouw]

Or you can read it as another reason Ben needs to retire. Because as the most decorated and tenured veteran player on the roster and the starting QB it is ABSOLUTELY your job to get on guys for things. That’s called leadership. If you don’t want to do it, time to get on with your life’s work.

[that1guy]

Or you can read it as another reason Ben needs to retire. Because as the most decorated and tenured veteran player on the roster and the starting QB it is ABSOLUTELY your job to get on guys for things. That’s called leadership. If you don’t want to do it, time to get on with your life’s work.
Ben needs to retire, no doubt but if we think the team has internal struggles now wait until the most senior member retires. Tomlin is not a strong leader, he's completely lost the locker room, he is incapable of building a competitive team. Ben is the glue holding the offense together and with his departure we can expect things to fall apart at the seems next season

[Mojouw]

Ben needs to retire, no doubt but if we think the team has internal struggles now wait until the most senior member retires. Tomlin is not a strong leader, he's completely lost the locker room, he is incapable of building a competitive team. Ben is the glue holding the offense together and with his departure we can expect things to fall apart at the seems next season

Totally disagree, but I guess we will see. A team with a lost locker room doesn't come back like they have all season. They would just roll over and quit. As a Flyers fan...I have recently seen a team where the coach lost them. This one isn't it.

[Shoes]

Or you can read it as another reason Ben needs to retire. Because as the most decorated and tenured veteran player on the roster and the starting QB it is ABSOLUTELY your job to get on guys for things. That’s called leadership. If you don’t want to do it, time to get on with your life’s work.

I agree. IMO Ben is not a natural leader and that has been my gut feeling for many years. It doesn't mean a person can't learn to be a good leader, but I've never seen Ben as fitting into either type. Tomlin still talks too much, he'll be happy with 8-8 and the parrots in the news box repeating the same mantra next year "Mike Tomlin Has Never Had a losing Season".

[Dwinsgames]

best comment ................. ( and true )



the8man says:
December 10, 2021 at 9:24 am (https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/12/10/ben-roethlisberger-not-my-job-to-deal-with-player-issues-like-chase-claypool/#comment-7824822)
Claypool is a mess. In his own world. Misses blocks, wastes time on a running clock, and commits stupid penalties to cripple drives.
I watched Big Ben spend the entire first half shaking his head.
You can’t coach talent, and you can’t fix selfish…and stupid.

[Shoes]

Claypool has a mind of a 12 year old. That is his issue.

[Mojouw]

Claypool has the mind of typical 23 year old that has been playing high level football for like 5 years. Only one of which did not feature a stopped clock for all first downs or whatever nonsense rules Canadian and college football have.

It doesn't make him right. But it isn't hard to understand.

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I agree. IMO Ben is not a natural leader and that has been my gut feeling for many years. It doesn't mean a person can't learn to be a good leader, but I've never seen Ben as fitting into either type. Tomlin still talks too much, he'll be happy with 8-8 and the parrots in the news box repeating the same mantra next year "Mike Tomlin Has Never Had a losing Season".

I think Tomlin talks exactly as much as he is contractually obligated to. I also think he is a good enough leader and smart enough to know that what he says into a microphone and what he says behind closed doors are two different things. I believe that we, as fans, get the two confused very frequently.

For instance, I am willing to bet that Tomlin never publicly calls Schoebert out - specifically. But he benched him and I bet they talk about it outside of the spotlight.

[Shoes]

Claypool has the mind of typical 23 year old that has been playing high level football for like 5 years. Only one of which did not feature a stopped clock for all first downs or whatever nonsense rules Canadian and college football have.

It doesn't make him right. But it isn't hard to understand.

It is for me, but then again adulthood is a moving target these days :chuckle:

[Shoes]

Claypool has the mind of typical 23 year old that has been playing high level football for like 5 years. Only one of which did not feature a stopped clock for all first downs or whatever nonsense rules Canadian and college football have.

It doesn't make him right. But it isn't hard to understand.

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I think Tomlin talks exactly as much as he is contractually obligated to. I also think he is a good enough leader and smart enough to know that what he says into a microphone and what he says behind closed doors are two different things. I believe that we, as fans, get the two confused very frequently.

For instance, I am willing to bet that Tomlin never publicly calls Schoebert out - specifically. But he benched him and I bet they talk about it outside of the spotlight.

Benching a player for a few plays until you need him really isn't doing any good except reinforcing the player that he is needed. I'm still convinced Tomlin missed his calling as a politician, but I suppose he still has time for that. :chuckle:

[86WARD]

Totally disagree, but I guess we will see. A team with a lost locker room doesn't come back like they have all season. They would just roll over and quit. As a Flyers fan...I have recently seen a team where the coach lost them. This one isn't it.

Flyers rolled over and died in 1999 and haven’t rebounded since. But that’s a topic for another day…lol

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Benching a player for a few plays until you need him really isn't doing any good except reinforcing the player that he is needed.

I disagree. Sometimes you bench a player for doing something stupid and he has that time to sit and stew about whether he wants to pout, or whether he wants to get his act together and get back into the game.

These are young men, not some freshman in college that you threaten by taking away his scholarship, or some bad puppy that you put in a kennel because he pissed on the rug. Take action, explain why, coach them up and give them an opportunity to improve upon their mistakes. Tell them the truth, treat them like men, coach them up.

[Shoes]

I disagree. Sometimes you bench a player for doing something stupid and he has that time to sit and stew about whether he wants to pout, or whether he wants to get his act together and get back into the game.

These are young men, not some freshman in college that you threaten by taking away his scholarship, or some bad puppy that you put in a kennel because he pissed on the rug. Take action, explain why, coach them up and give them an opportunity to improve upon their mistakes. Tell them the truth, treat them like men, coach them up.

Yes, sometimes.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yes, sometimes.

Yup, in my experience, maybe 90% of the time. I did it with a young WR this fall that brought back a TD run because he committed a "crack back" block penalty. Told the WR coach to take him out of the rotation. Talked to him at halftime, coached him up and asked if he was ready to go back in and compete. He was, so he got back in and played hard the 2nd half.

Back to the original topic, I agree that Ben should hang it up if he doesnt want to lead. In the past there were guys like Pouncey, Ward, Bettis, Farrior, Porter, Vince Willaims etc. Now there is Ben, Cam and Minkah from what I can see that players look to for leadership. Minkah and Trai Turner were the only 2 guys I saw getting in players faces for that embarrassing effort. Ben just got in Tomlin's face on the way to look at the tablet.

[Rotorhead]

Yeah, it’s all Ben’s fault . . .
Ben is a leader out there, the stupid penalties are on the coaches to clean up, especially when Ben has to wrestle control of the offense for a half before he can just take control and put up some offense, he has a few other things to worry about. When was Ben supposed to be coaching up Chase? In the huddle where he calling the plays? While he is lining everyone up in the hurry up? I get that you all want Ben gone, but it is getting ridiculous. I mean before it was he can’t throw deep, then he throws deep just fine, then it was he can’t throw over the middle, then last night he was threading needles across the middle, then it was he can’t carry the team, again he did that, now it is he isn’t a good leader. Gimme a break.

[Mach1]

It's not Bens job to babysit or discipline other players, that would fall squarely at the foot of Tomlin.

[Mojouw]

Let's be honest about what we saw last night. First...Ben was gritty and gutty all day and even in a losing effort by the team this should burnish his legacy. As should last week.

BUT...he didn't succeed over the middle of the field. See that area between the hash marks and over 4 yards? It was a no go zone again.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/single/all/team/2021/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381

And throwing deep? Sure they had success...but...I dont' know, man. Unless there was a ton of throws I didn't see in the variety of game cut-ups I saw...he heaved up prayers that a variety of WRs made simply jaw dropping catches on.

The final throw to PF was amazing and vintage Ben.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yeah, it’s all Ben’s fault . . .
Ben is a leader out there, the stupid penalties are on the coaches to clean up, especially when Ben has to wrestle control of the offense for a half before he can just take control and put up some offense, he has a few other things to worry about. When was Ben supposed to be coaching up Chase? In the huddle where he calling the plays? While he is lining everyone up in the hurry up? I get that you all want Ben gone, but it is getting ridiculous. I mean before it was he can’t throw deep, then he throws deep just fine, then it was he can’t throw over the middle, then last night he was threading needles across the middle, then it was he can’t carry the team, again he did that, now it is he isn’t a good leader. Gimme a break.

Nobody said its all Ben's fault. It actually was the O line not protecting him in the first half and really not getting any push in the run game to be able to establish a run. Defensively the front 7 was just terrible, lacked physicality and intensity.

What they are saying is that if Ben is the leader, or if its Ben and his 52 kids out there, then he needs to step up and lead. Or else he needs to delegate his leadership authority on offense to some veteran who will lead. Make Trai Turner, or Derek Watt his "anger translator". When Claypool was celebrating a 1st down and not getting lined up fast, the only 2 guys that got in his face were Turner and Najee. Maybe Najee will grow to be a leader, but the Steelers need to find some guys in the offseason that will lead this team.

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The final throw to PF was amazing and vintage Ben.

So true. If Harrison Smith doesnt make a great play on the ball, the Steelers are lining up for 2 point convert.

[Shoes]

Nobody said its all Ben's fault. It actually was the O line not protecting him in the first half and really not getting any push in the run game to be able to establish a run. Defensively the front 7 was just terrible, lacked physicality and intensity.

What they are saying is that if Ben is the leader, or if its Ben and his 52 kids out there, then he needs to step up and lead. Or else he needs to delegate his leadership authority on offense to some veteran who will lead. Make Trai Turner, or Derek Watt his "anger translator". When Claypool was celebrating a 1st down and not getting lined up fast, the only 2 guys that got in his face were Turner and Najee. Maybe Najee will grow to be a leader, but the Steelers need to find some guys in the offseason that will lead this team.

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So true. If Harrison Smith doesnt make a great play on the ball, the Steelers are lining up for 2 point convert.




For a visual of this. :chuckle:





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-UhwbVlwmA

[Steeler-in-west]

He’s right, It’s not Ben’s job to discipline players. It’s Tomlin’s job. Any players disciplining claypool is voluntary. If it’s Cam or Najee, great then that makes Tomlin’s job easier, but ultimately it’s the coaches responsibility to keep guys in line - like the group celebration after the int when they were down three scores….that’s Tomlin’s responsibility to reprimand those guys…it should’ve never happened in the first place but is known Tomlin misses small details like that in his meetings with players

[Mojouw]

Nobody said its all Ben's fault. It actually was the O line not protecting him in the first half and really not getting any push in the run game to be able to establish a run. Defensively the front 7 was just terrible, lacked physicality and intensity.

What they are saying is that if Ben is the leader, or if its Ben and his 52 kids out there, then he needs to step up and lead. Or else he needs to delegate his leadership authority on offense to some veteran who will lead. Make Trai Turner, or Derek Watt his "anger translator". When Claypool was celebrating a 1st down and not getting lined up fast, the only 2 guys that got in his face were Turner and Najee. Maybe Najee will grow to be a leader, but the Steelers need to find some guys in the offseason that will lead this team.

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So true. If Harrison Smith doesnt make a great play on the ball, the Steelers are lining up for 2 point convert.

Smith did make a great play. And this play will likely be part of PF's rookie experience. I did not see enough of the play to know for sure, but maybe there was some vet savvy thing he could have done to still get to the ball and shield off Smith? Maybe not. Not blaming him. Just saying that MANY (again...not all) of this team's issues are what happens when you are reliant on 1st, 2nd year, or first time starters all over the field.

Also, Harris will be a leader, if he is not already. I saw several moments is just highlights and other video clips where he was shepherding players away from confrontations, exhorting guys after plays, etc. He also backs it up with his play on the field.

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I also loved the group celebration after the INT. Hell, yeah celebrate. The defense got gashed and had issues, but they kept battling. They kept coming and coming trying to get something done right. Celebrate that a bounce went your way and you were able to capitalize on it. Emotion is what feeds momentum.

Y'all are far too grumpy old geezers sometimes.

[Edman]

Thus highlights the problem with the Steelers for seasons now. No accountability and a lackdaisical "It's not my problem" attitude in the locker room. Its why this team comes out unprepared and not ready to play week after week. We can point fingers and point out the what-ifs and might have beens, but once again the team plays like total dogshit to get behind a very large deficit requiring heroic efforts to overcome. If the Steelers did even remotely one thing right in that first half, they might've won last night. Its a staple of the Ben/Tomlin era. You don't fall behind 29-0 against anyone and expect to win. They battled back and made the game interesting, just like the Jaguars and Browns playoff games, but the result is the same. Another L.

I don't expect any of this to change until Ben retires or Tomlin is let go.

[Shoes]

Smith did make a great play. And this play will likely be part of PF's rookie experience. I did not see enough of the play to know for sure, but maybe there was some vet savvy thing he could have done to still get to the ball and shield off Smith? Maybe not. Not blaming him. Just saying that MANY (again...not all) of this team's issues are what happens when you are reliant on 1st, 2nd year, or first time starters all over the field.

Also, Harris will be a leader, if he is not already. I saw several moments is just highlights and other video clips where he was shepherding players away from confrontations, exhorting guys after plays, etc. He also backs it up with his play on the field.

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I also loved the group celebration after the INT. Hell, yeah celebrate. The defense got gashed and had issues, but they kept battling. They kept coming and coming trying to get something done right. Celebrate that a bounce went your way and you were able to capitalize on it. Emotion is what feeds momentum.

Y'all are far too grumpy old geezers sometimes.

:chuckle: I say how I see it and move on. I sure don't stew over this stuff, if fact I didn't watch Tomlin's post game presser until now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AD_UBiBjFw

[DesertSteel]

I thought the last time Ben chastised a WR (AB) worked out pretty well.

[Mojouw]

:chuckle: I say how I see it and move on. I sure don't stew over this stuff, if fact I didn't watch Tomlin's post game presser until now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AD_UBiBjFw

Fair enough! I just think the hand wringing and pearl clutching over celebrations is nonsense. Like, sure in 1967 that wasn't how it was done. Who cares? It is how it is done now. TJ Watt celebrates all the time. Cam Heyward celebrates. Multiple SB winning teams in recent seasons have engaged in all kinds of group celebrations. Let these dudes have some fun. NFL football seems like it is really hard and often times super boring to be in the weekly grind for the players. Bust some emotion out on game-days.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Smith did make a great play. And this play will likely be part of PF's rookie experience. I did not see enough of the play to know for sure, but maybe there was some vet savvy thing he could have done to still get to the ball and shield off Smith? Maybe not. Not blaming him. Just saying that MANY (again...not all) of this team's issues are what happens when you are reliant on 1st, 2nd year, or first time starters all over the field.

Also, Harris will be a leader, if he is not already. I saw several moments is just highlights and other video clips where he was shepherding players away from confrontations, exhorting guys after plays, etc. He also backs it up with his play on the field.

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I also loved the group celebration after the INT. Hell, yeah celebrate. The defense got gashed and had issues, but they kept battling. They kept coming and coming trying to get something done right. Celebrate that a bounce went your way and you were able to capitalize on it. Emotion is what feeds momentum.

Y'all are far too grumpy old geezers sometimes.

I love when players celebrate great plays. But you have to prioritize what is more important.....saving time for a potential game winning drive vs. celebrating a fist down reception and it costing valuable seconds in a 2 minute drill?

What would Hines Ward do??

[Mojouw]

I love when players celebrate great plays. But you have to prioritize what is more important.....saving time for a potential game winning drive vs. celebrating a fist down reception and it costing valuable seconds in a 2 minute drill?

What would Hines Ward do??

Notice that I was addressing the INT celebration and the comments specifically voicing grumpy old man displeasure about that.

Honestly, Hines Ward would get up and celebrate making the first down. Like he almost always did.

The focus on one thing as the reason for losing this game is insanity. I mean if we are going to focus on one thing, let's focus on the total inability of the LB corps to fill gaps. I mean, hell we don't even have to talk about filling the correct gaps -- just any gap.

Want to talk about mental miscues, no situation awareness, no head for the game, and football instincts? The total absence of those in run support in the first half by anyone not named Minkah was far more responsible for the Steelers losing than whether Claypool wasted 5 seconds or 500 seconds.

[Mach1]

Notice that I was addressing the INT celebration and the comments specifically voicing grumpy old man displeasure about that.

Honestly, Hines Ward would get up and celebrate making the first down. Like he almost always did.

The focus on one thing as the reason for losing this game is insanity. I mean if we are going to focus on one thing, let's focus on the total inability of the LB corps to fill gaps. I mean, hell we don't even have to talk about filling the correct gaps -- just any gap.

Want to talk about mental miscues, no situation awareness, no head for the game, and football instincts? The total absence of those in run support in the first half by anyone not named Minkah was far more responsible for the Steelers losing than whether Claypool wasted 5 seconds or 500 seconds.

Who's job is it to them prepared for that? Not Ben's.

[Mojouw]

Who's job is it to them prepared for that? Not Ben's.

Which I never said it was. Weird, it is almost like you are having an argument with a point that you only think I am making...

As to whose fault? Devin Bush, Joe Schoebert, TJ Watt, Alex Highsmith first and foremost. Mondeaux, Wormley, Adams, and Heyward next. Edmunds, Sutton, and Witherspoon next.

I saw one big run in the first half where Watt crashed hard inside, got washed out of the play and the back went right around his end. Either Watt guessed wrong and gave up edge contain or he was supposed to be backed up by another player and wasn't. I suspect that Watt was itching to make a play and guessed wrong. The Vikings exploited it for a big play of their own.

But...sure...let's keep talking about Claypool and coaching hot takes that appear to ripped wholesale from morning ESPN shows and drive-time sports radio.

[Mach1]

Which I never said it was. Weird, it is almost like you are having an argument with a point that you only think I am making...

As to whose fault? Devin Bush, Joe Schoebert, TJ Watt, Alex Highsmith first and foremost. Mondeaux, Wormley, Adams, and Heyward next. Edmunds, Sutton, and Witherspoon next.

I saw one big run in the first half where Watt crashed hard inside, got washed out of the play and the back went right around his end. Either Watt guessed wrong and gave up edge contain or he was supposed to be backed up by another player and wasn't. I suspect that Watt was itching to make a play and guessed wrong. The Vikings exploited it for a big play of their own.

But...sure...let's keep talking about Claypool and coaching hot takes that appear to ripped wholesale from morning ESPN shows and drive-time sports radio.

So they were out coached?
Claypool needs to grow up but he has to do that on his own. Nobody can do it for him.

[steelreserve]

He’s right, It’s not Ben’s job to discipline players. It’s Tomlin’s job. Any players disciplining claypool is voluntary. If it’s Cam or Najee, great then that makes Tomlin’s job easier, but ultimately it’s the coaches responsibility to keep guys in line - like the group celebration after the int when they were down three scores….that’s Tomlin’s responsibility to reprimand those guys…it should’ve never happened in the first place but is known Tomlin misses small details like that in his meetings with players

On the other hand, though ... how many teams can you think of where the franchise QB is NOT one of the team leaders trying to motivate guys or get after them in a productive way? It's pretty unusual, leadership seems to usually go hand in hand with taking a leading role on the field. It's never been his thing and it's unlikely to change now, just odd though.

[Mojouw]

So they were out coached?
Claypool needs to grow up but he has to do that on his own. Nobody can do it for him.

I don't think the coaches implemented some new-fangled defensive scheme of "leave your darn gap" and a pass protection plan of "don't block guys".

I think players failed to execute the basics of NFL football for a half.

Funny how no one talks about the Vikings total failure to come up with answers in the second half. At one point i think they had like 30 yards of offense. That is probably more coaching decisions than Joe Shoebert forgetting how run defense is intended to be played.

[86WARD]

Let's be honest about what we saw last night. First...Ben was gritty and gutty all day and even in a losing effort by the team this should burnish his legacy. As should last week.

BUT...he didn't succeed over the middle of the field. See that area between the hash marks and over 4 yards? It was a no go zone again.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/single/all/team/2021/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381

And throwing deep? Sure they had success...but...I dont' know, man. Unless there was a ton of throws I didn't see in the variety of game cut-ups I saw...he heaved up prayers that a variety of WRs made simply jaw dropping catches on.

The final throw to PF was amazing and vintage Ben.

What routes were run in the middle of the field and who was open to throw to?

[Mojouw]

What routes were run in the middle of the field and who was open to throw to?

We.ve had this discussion dozens of times. You know the stats and games as well as I do. You know that I strongly believe the routes are not called because he can't hit them reliably anymore.

For two years the QB has had ZERO success over the middle intermediate. Even with a prized rookie TE. When he does go over the middle to moving targets he often throws behind or high and outside. Both are recipes for INTS and in the past 2 seasons have resulted in multiple INTs. Ben is a QB that plays outside the numbers now. Where inaccurate ball placement doesn't hurt you as bad. And where your WRs can make ridiculous back-shoulder catches to help you out. And that is fine...but lets not pretend the old gunslinger has recaptured his glory years. That is all I am saying.

[NCSteeler]

On the other hand, though ... how many teams can you think of where the franchise QB is NOT one of the team leaders trying to motivate guys or get after them in a productive way? It's pretty unusual, leadership seems to usually go hand in hand with taking a leading role on the field. It's never been his thing and it's unlikely to change now, just odd though.I wonder is that just Be or is it that he came into a very senior team with lots of leadership and never developed into a leader.



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Hawkman]

Would it make everyone happy if you saw Ben screaming at Claypool on the sidelines on national tv? Why does he have to say anything in front of us. His leadership was on display with his attempt to when last night.

[NCSteeler]

Would it make everyone happy if you saw Ben screaming at Claypool on the sidelines on national tv? Why does he have to say anything in front of us. His leadership was on display with his attempt to when last night.Fwiw , I can't stand seeing Brady scream at his team on the sidelines. I think that shit rarely makes anyone play better. Now, Ray the knife lewis rah rah and Joey the pitbull Porters rah rah gets guys hyped and playing better

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Hawkman]

We.ve had this discussion dozens of times. You know the stats and games as well as I do. You know that I strongly believe the routes are not called because he can't hit them reliably anymore.

For two years the QB has had ZERO success over the middle intermediate. Even with a prized rookie TE. When he does go over the middle to moving targets he often throws behind or high and outside. Both are recipes for INTS and in the past 2 seasons have resulted in multiple INTs. Ben is a QB that plays outside the numbers now. Where inaccurate ball placement doesn't hurt you as bad. And where your WRs can make ridiculous back-shoulder catches to help you out. And that is fine...but lets not pretend the old gunslinger has recaptured his glory years. That is all I am saying.

He threw plenty of INTs over the middle in his gunslinging days. Just saying.:heh:

[Steeler-in-west]

On the other hand, though ... how many teams can you think of where the franchise QB is NOT one of the team leaders trying to motivate guys or get after them in a productive way? It's pretty unusual, leadership seems to usually go hand in hand with taking a leading role on the field. It's never been his thing and it's unlikely to change now, just odd though.

there are a lot of QB’s that don’t seem demonstrative on the field. Maybe their leaders behind the scenes (at practice, team meetings…do we know for sure who is a voice in the locker room?) haven’t a few of the young guys described Ben as a great teacher/mentor? That’s a type of leadership. Bradshaw himself wasn’t much of the leader I think your describing (we know who was the leader on that team and it wasn’t the QB). Some guys lead by example - and Ben does that. I’d rather have that then someone like Brister who maybe was more vocal but wasn’t half the QB Ben was.

[Steeler-in-west]

I think players failed to execute the basics of NFL football for a half.

Funny how no one talks about the Vikings total failure to come up with answers in the second half. At one point i think they had like 30 yards of offense. That is probably more coaching decisions than Joe Shoebert forgetting how run defense is intended to be played.

who’s fault is that? The defense and the o line had a total collapse (Bush, Schobert, the front line as a whole) and the coaches are not at fault? Noll always emphasized the basics - just maybe Tomlin and staff are not doing that.

as far as Zimmer, we know he’s a mediocre coach at best. Tomlin is supposed to be this great untouchable coach and we’re debating that.

[Born2Steel]

This is an interesting debate to me. As a youth coach all I do is coach fundamentals. My specific role this past season was OL/DL. Teaching 3and4 point stance, how to leave your stance, staying low, be first to hit the other guy, stuff like that. My kids this time were 5/6 years old and 1st time playing so basic level instruction is the focus. We stay with these kids up to 12. After that they join the school system and should have a pretty good understanding of the basic fundamentals at that point. SO, I do not get into the coaches vs coaches level of football ever. We are all teachers of all kids where I coach. However, I do have rapport with the jr and highschool level coaches and get to keep up with most of these kids through those years. One thing I never see or hear about is coaching players how to not retaliate, when to get out of bounds, when to just slide or go down, it seems these things 'should' be learned while learning the game you're playing. Not saying it's not talked about but it's not a specific point of teaching as a football coach.

As for disciplining players at higher level for not knowing how to 'understand' how to game, I have no experience. I think there has to be different ways for different coaching styles. Is Tomlin a coach that let's the players/team leaders handle that? Only up to a certain point until it becomes a distraction? A coach that keeps the players out of all of that and handles it either personally or with position coaches? I don't know and I guess neither do any of you. What I do know, after all this long winded story, is I haven't seen these issues we're discussing here last for long on any Tomlin team. It's my belief this issue will get handled too. And it will be handled Tomlin's way.

[86WARD]

We.ve had this discussion dozens of times. You know the stats and games as well as I do. You know that I strongly believe the routes are not called because he can't hit them reliably anymore.

For two years the QB has had ZERO success over the middle intermediate. Even with a prized rookie TE. When he does go over the middle to moving targets he often throws behind or high and outside. Both are recipes for INTS and in the past 2 seasons have resulted in multiple INTs. Ben is a QB that plays outside the numbers now. Where inaccurate ball placement doesn't hurt you as bad. And where your WRs can make ridiculous back-shoulder catches to help you out. And that is fine...but lets not pretend the old gunslinger has recaptured his glory years. That is all I am saying.

But what routes were open in the middle of the field that he missed against the Vikings. Just curious.

[Mojouw]

But what routes were open in the middle of the field that he missed against the Vikings. Just curious.

They don’t run middle of the field routes because it’s either an incompletion or turnover. See like most of 2020.

[NCSteeler]

Wouldn't you at least run a few to keep them honest in coverage? I think it's way to simple to just say they do not run it. If that's the case it's no wonder they suck. You have to run the routes to make someone pull into that coverage.

Note: I'm a fan who likes to drink beer wand watch Steelers games. At no point have I studied tape or break down plays

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[Mojouw]

Wouldn't you at least run a few to keep them honest in coverage? I think it's way to simple to just say they do not run it. If that's the case it's no wonder they suck. You have to run the routes to make someone pull into that coverage.

Note: I'm a fan who likes to drink beer wand watch Steelers games. At no point have I studied tape or break down plays

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I don't study things either. I know what I see on gamedays and I know what I read. This is from earlier in the season: https://triblive.com/sports/steelers-four-downs-ben-roethlisberger-not-using-the-middle-of-the-field/

"Roethlisberger has not attempted a pass “between the numbers” more than 16 yards downfield all season. And among the 98 passes he threw the past two weeks, none were more than 12 yards downfield down the middle."

[Steeler-in-west]

Ben’s arm strength and accuracy was doubted and he’s proved people wrong. He’s hit receivers over the middle with plenty of accuracy as was seen on that last play to PF. I don’t think it’s an arm or accuracy issue. If anything it could be that those long plays over the middle take too long to develop and the line is not reliable enough to keep Ben upright that long. They don’t know how or can’t provide enough protection. For crying out loud, They were letting defenders get to Ben untouched last Thursday a number of times - that’s scheme failure - Klemm has shown very little - just a big disappointment- I hope they don’t bring him or Canada back

[pczach]

I don't study things either. I know what I see on gamedays and I know what I read. This is from earlier in the season: https://triblive.com/sports/steelers-four-downs-ben-roethlisberger-not-using-the-middle-of-the-field/

"Roethlisberger has not attempted a pass “between the numbers” more than 16 yards downfield all season. And among the 98 passes he threw the past two weeks, none were more than 12 yards downfield down the middle."





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhrbdinTleo

[Steeler-in-west]

^that play too, Ben is not the problem, it’s a shame he’s being used as a scapegoat

[NCSteeler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhrbdinTleoMan what a play. Over the deep middle though. Hahaha

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[Mojouw]

I am neither making this up, imagining it, or exaggerating the lack of plays over the middle for the 2020-2021 Steelers passing game. Literallly every analysis of the team for two seasons now has looked at this and said: "Well...there's a big glaring problem."

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/10/ben-roethlisberger-ranks-30th-overall-in-mof-pass-attempt-percentage-through-week-6/

Against the Chargers and the Vikings plays were made down the middle. Also some of the largest deficits and most "preventy" defenses faced this season.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2020
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2021

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I mean if you all watched Roethlisberger chuck ducks down the sideline and Washington, Claypool, and Johnson make some of the most ridiculous catches in the entire league this season and thought "Yup! This is a high-powered passing attack that can move the ball on anyone, anytime." I have no idea how to respond to that.

[pczach]

I am neither making this up, imagining it, or exaggerating the lack of plays over the middle for the 2020-2021 Steelers passing game. Literallly every analysis of the team for two seasons now has looked at this and said: "Well...there's a big glaring problem."

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/10/ben-roethlisberger-ranks-30th-overall-in-mof-pass-attempt-percentage-through-week-6/

Against the Chargers and the Vikings plays were made down the middle. Also some of the largest deficits and most "preventy" defenses faced this season.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2020
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2021

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I mean if you all watched Roethlisberger chuck ducks down the sideline and Washington, Claypool, and Johnson make some of the most ridiculous catches in the entire league this season and thought "Yup! This is a high-powered passing attack that can move the ball on anyone, anytime." I have no idea how to respond to that.



I'm not trying to show you up. I know you said you didn't see much of the game. I just wanted to show the great throw deep down the middle of the field to Washington.

That wasn't against prevent. That score with a good amount of time left in the game would have gotten them within a TD if they got the 2-point conversion. He also had a throw within the numbers to Johnson in the first quarter that was about 17 yards downfield. Here's a video of his best throws from this game. The first throw of the video is the other throw between the numbers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xEDh9ty5-I

I don't think anyone is arguing with you that he doesn't do it a lot. I think these throws show that he is still capable of doing it, and that part of the field should be attacked more.

As far as the throws down the sideline. He seems to be getting more accurate as the season is going on. He is making a conscious effort to not overthrow the receivers and give them a chance to make a play. These are throws that every NFL quarterback makes every game. I don't see that he is throwing lollipops that are lucky to be caught.

[Mojouw]

I'm not trying to show you up. I know you said you didn't see much of the game. I just wanted to show the great throw deep down the middle of the field to Washington.

That wasn't against prevent. That score with a good amount of time left in the game would have gotten them within a TD if they got the 2-point conversion. He also had a throw within the numbers to Johnson in the first quarter that was about 17 yards downfield. Here's a video of his best throws from this game. The first throw of the video is the other throw between the numbers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xEDh9ty5-I

I don't think anyone is arguing with you that he doesn't do it a lot. I think these throws show that he is still capable of doing it, and that part of the field should be attacked more.

As far as the throws down the sideline. He seems to be getting more accurate as the season is going on. He is making a conscious effort to not overthrow the receivers and give them a chance to make a play. These are throws that every NFL quarterback makes every game. I don't see that he is throwing lollipops that are lucky to be caught.

I don’t see it that way at all.

To me it looks like a QB that floats under thrown balls along the sidelines to either have his WR make insane grabs or draw the DPI.

I’ve never argued he can’t occasionally uncork a prime Big Ben throw. Of course he can. But it’s like an aging pitcher. Sure, every so often he can reach back and throw high 90s heat down the heart of the strike zone but mostly he knows he can’t so he locates breaking balls and hopes he can get calls on the edge of the plate.

Just about every great QB spends a season or three doing this. Then they retire.

[86WARD]

They don’t run middle of the field routes because it’s either an incompletion or turnover. See like most of 2020.

So if the routes aren’t being run, that’s on the OC play design. That’s not on the QB. Even if the QB can’t make the throws, the OC should, at the very least, know to run those routes to keep the defense honest. We’ve seen teams trot out players that are injured to run a decoy route to keep teams honest and guessing. What you are essentially saying is that Matt Canada doesn’t think Ben can complete passes in the middle of the field so they don’t run any routes there?

[Mojouw]

So if the routes aren’t being run, that’s on the OC play design. That’s not on the QB. Even if the QB can’t make the throws, the OC should, at the very least, know to run those routes to keep the defense honest. We’ve seen teams trot out players that are injured to run a decoy route to keep teams honest and guessing. What you are essentially saying is that Matt Canada doesn’t think Ben can complete passes in the middle of the field so they don’t run any routes there?

Yes. This team has attacked vertical only outside the hashes for three years now.

It’s a turnover avoidance thing.

[86WARD]

Yes. This team has attacked vertical only outside the hashes for three years now.

It’s a turnover avoidance thing.

So it’s more on the coaching staff than the personnel.

[Mojouw]

So it’s more on the coaching staff than the personnel.

Yes and no. Of course the coaching staff calls the plays. But...I don't ascribed to the "everyone who coaches for the Steelers is dumber than a bag of hammers" theories that appear to be popular across the internet. I think the offensive staff saw the inability of Ben to consistently hit targets over the middle. He, despite flashes in recent games, has not thrown well into tight windows or consistently been on target to targets moving laterally since he returned from the elbow injury. Some feel this lack of precision and placement in pass targeting goes back a season or so prior to the injury as well. I don't know. But I believe they stripped as much of that out of the offense as they could because it was leading to passes behind the moving target or tips that led to INTs. So they vertical element of the Steelers game shifted to the boundary. This allows Ben to put the ball out there with a TON of air under it and allow his guy to try and run under it to make a play. Or he can toss one up and hope his guy can fight through the DB to a back-shoulder throw.

Nothing is helped by Juju getting hurt. He was the "middle of the field guy". Ben would just throw towards him and Juju would make a play on the ball. Similar to how PF has made several catches. I think the team is being super honest about the strength and weaknesses of their roster and making a concerted attempt to call plays that allow them to win and not give the other team a chance to make plays on the ball.