Roethlisberger in The Athletic

[Mojouw]

Behind a paywall, but good read if you can.

Long story short, Ben seems to (his interview answers are always cryptic) acknowledge that his arm was weaker last season. Says he will have to see if there is improvement during this season.

It’s an honest assessment and answer but not really brimming with optimism.

I know I’m a broken record on this issue. But Ben himself seems to be inching towards acknowledging he was physically limited and it compromised his 2020 performance.

Watching Brees and Rivers struggle last season and then retire, might be a reasonable barometer. Or, it’s a year out and Ben starts bombing away again…

The reason I started this thread is that I feel that Ben is the key to the 2021 season. He plays well, skys the limit. If he plays like he did in the second half of last season…look out.

[vasteeler]

Not having the 32nd tank rushing attack should help that

[Mojouw]

Not having the 32nd tank rushing attack should help that

How does a running game make a specific human being’s arm stronger and more accurate?

I’m not trying pick on your comment in particular or anything confrontational. But I keep hearing this type of response to the “QB Question” and I don’t understand how a run game fixes scattershot noodle arm? And, yes, I realize it’s not that dramatic but I exaggerate to underscore the point.

[st33lersguy]

I guess it's a strong hint that 2021 may be his last season

[Fire Goodell]

Behind a paywall, but good read if you can.

Long story short, Ben seems to (his interview answers are always cryptic) acknowledge that his arm was weaker last season. Says he will have to see if there is improvement during this season.

It’s an honest assessment and answer but not really brimming with optimism.

I know I’m a broken record on this issue. But Ben himself seems to be inching towards acknowledging he was physically limited and it compromised his 2020 performance.

Watching Brees and Rivers struggle last season and then retire, might be a reasonable barometer. Or, it’s a year out and Ben starts bombing away again…

The reason I started this thread is that I feel that Ben is the key to the 2021 season. He plays well, skys the limit. If he plays like he did in the second half of last season…look out.

If he starts off like that, fans will start chanting rudolph or haskins

[Steeler-in-west]

His arm looked fine in the OTA’s

[Lloydwoodsonjr]

His arm looked fine in the OTA’s

Looked good at the start of last season too

[Fire Goodell]

it's possible he was hiding an injury, he wasn't the same late in the season

[Rotorhead]

it's possible he was hiding an injury, he wasn't the same late in the season

It is also possible it wasn’t as strong so soon after surgery. I had shoulder surgery last year January and it took a year to get it back to 100% so it would get fatigued so quickly. Ben had what, half that time?

[Dwinsgames]

How does a running game make a specific human being’s arm stronger and more accurate?

I’m not trying pick on your comment in particular or anything confrontational. But I keep hearing this type of response to the “QB Question” and I don’t understand how a run game fixes scattershot noodle arm? And, yes, I realize it’s not that dramatic but I exaggerate to underscore the point.


a running game doesn't "FIX" this issues but what it does do is mask them to some degree because you are not as dependent on throwing it 40+ times a game ...

throwing it 40+ times a game magnifies deficiencies ....

lets try this analogy on for a moment if you will be so kind to indulge ....

if I put a new scope on a rifle for hunting season and I start to sight it in and its shooting 1/2 to the right at 25 yards , then it is shooting an inch right at 50 , 2 inches at 100 , 6 inches at 300 ( or more ) the more you are asking from that rifle and scope the more deficient / inaccurate it seems to be ... but hey if a deer walks past at 25 yards that 1/2 to the right means basically nothing and the deer drops in its tracks with a well placed shot ( at worse he runs 40 yards and goes down ) ... point is magnification can make anything and everything worse ... the less emphasis the easier it is to mask a deficiency ...

as a side note I am not proclaiming Ben is deficient , I think the Jury is still out he was a year removed from the game with a significant injury to recover from and rehab that said I believe it is reasonable he suffered fatigue from week 10ish on from not being back at full strength and over working that arm out of necessity because of the lack of a reliable running game and it normally takes 2 year to recover from significant injury to regain 100% of prior form ...

I would also go on to say that Father time is undefeated and he has had yet another year to gnaw away at Bens arm ...

what is the "correct answer"? I think its impossible to tell until its crystal clear and it is no longer a question but a statement of fact ...


until then people will pass many hours on MSG boards and social media making proclamations based on flawed data and gut feelings and thats ok too ..its fun to talk about I suppose

[EzraTank]

How does a running game make a specific human being’s arm stronger and more accurate?

I’m not trying pick on your comment in particular or anything confrontational. But I keep hearing this type of response to the “QB Question” and I don’t understand how a run game fixes scattershot noodle arm? And, yes, I realize it’s not that dramatic but I exaggerate to underscore the point.

Because like anything else in life it's a lot easier to throw the ball harder and deeper if you aren't being asked to do it 50 times a game. Even young stud MLB pitchers lose control and speed on their pitches the longer a game goes and they have to throw EVERY play. So if you get a good balance and don't need to fire down field almost ALL game then reason is that come the 4th quarter you still have some gas left in the arm tank.


it's possible he was hiding an injury, he wasn't the same late in the season

I think he was still recovering from surgery. I mean he had three torn flexor tendons in his throwing elbow. Guys that have major surgery may be "able" to play in the following year but major surgery like those take a lot longer than that to heal (some never heal the same). Add to the fact his age and that makes it even harder.

I'm in my 50's and grew up playing ice hockey competitively all the way through the collegiate level and then in A level adult leagues. I remember when I hit my mid to late 30's my body just couldn't recover from nagging injuries I got from playing ice hockey in men's leagues. Bruises took longer to heal, pulled muscles took longer, sore backs lasted longer, etc. And I've always stayed in shape, went to the gym regularly, never was overweight (heck I'm still 6'3", 195lbs and fit). I had to give up ice hockey by 40 and now I just play volleyball competitively to stay in shape. Getting older sucks, and Ben plays in one of the toughest sports in the world.

[Mojouw]

All good answers. I really liked the rifle scope analogy. That is what I felt I saw all season. Ben was off, even on the short ones, but the WRs were still able to haul it in. On the deeper ones, well the fact that they basically gave up on them for large portions of the season, speaks volumes to me.

I said at the end of the season that it is/was possible that there was a strength and conditioning issue post-surgery that could help to "fix" some of this. And that still may be possible. But, until there are live games to say different, I am still of the opinion (likely a bad one) that Ben should have retired and you can put him behind a brick wall with the best RB in the world and it won't change not being able to do some of the things a high level NFL QB needs to do any longer. Ben will still likely play well enough that they are in every game and win many of them. Enough to lose early in the playoffs when teams need to elevate their game.

[Born2Steel]

Even if Ben's 'arm' has fallen off some, he can more than make up for most of it with his play experience. Rookie level arm talent vs veteran experience could be explained in watching Rudolph look lost most of the time while carrying around enough arm talent to be an all-pro. Eventually it catches up or it doesn't. Ben has both until proven otherwise and that's going to be my stance until then.

[Steeler-in-west]

I like to think that if Ben decided to return, he must feel his arm is ok. These HOF QB's have pride, i don't think they'd want to risk hurting the team with poor play. Got to take it as a good sign of health that Ben decided to return.

Even if he's wrong and it turns out badly, steelers get a high draft pick and have lots of money to pickup a FA QB in 2022.

[vasteeler]

How does a running game make a specific human being’s arm stronger and more accurate?

I’m not trying pick on your comment in particular or anything confrontational. But I keep hearing this type of response to the “QB Question” and I don’t understand how a run game fixes scattershot noodle arm? And, yes, I realize it’s not that dramatic but I exaggerate to underscore the point.

Because he won't have to throw it as much. Basically our running game was short passes.

[Mojouw]

I can see what you are saying, but if you can't throw 500-600+ passes over the course of a season then maybe you shouldn't be a 30 some million dollar NFL QB.

The accuracy and ball placement issues were there from Week 1. Even when Ben's arm was fresh and the team was running the ball effectively, he still was way off on deep passes and was scattershot with hitting moving targets.

[Dwinsgames]

I can see what you are saying, but if you can't throw 500-600+ passes over the course of a season then maybe you shouldn't be a 30 some million dollar NFL QB.



and he isnt ....

I guess with all the dead cap etc he is but thats on the team for restructures etc ( see Lamar Woodley on how to get in a huge contract hole in a hurry and apply it here as well )

technically speaking Ben is a bargain at his current 1 year deal contract price even if he replicates last years numbers ( which were pretty good by the way based on a statistical look ) his numbers where better than most ...The Pundits will have you to believe we are headed for a 5-12 season and Ben is washed up blah blah blah but at the end of the day he was the most productive QB in the division and those same Pundits will also tell you that Justin Herbert is one of the best QBs in the league ( Herberts numbers were no better than Bens ) ... cant have it both ways but the pundits will try and convince you that you can ...

bottom line I do not see this team winning any less than 10 games and 4 to 5 wins in the division ...



Year

Age
Base Salary
Signing
Restructure
Cap Hit
Dead Cap
Yearly Cash



2021 (https://www.spotrac.com/redirect/team/18/cap-2021/)
https://d1dglpr230r57l.cloudfront.net/images/thumb/pit.png
39
$1,075,000
$15,085,000
$9,750,000
$25,910,000
$35,200,000 (https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/ben-roethlisberger-3595/#)
$14,000,000($14,000,000)

[Mojouw]

and he isnt ....

I guess with all the dead cap etc he is but thats on the team for restructures etc ( see Lamar Woodley on how to get in a huge contract hole in a hurry and apply it here as well )

technically speaking Ben is a bargain at his current 1 year deal contract price even if he replicates last years numbers ( which were pretty good by the way based on a statistical look ) his numbers where better than most ...The Pundits will have you to believe we are headed for a 5-12 season and Ben is washed up blah blah blah but at the end of the day he was the most productive QB in the division and those same Pundits will also tell you that Justin Herbert is one of the best QBs in the league ( Herberts numbers were no better than Bens ) ... cant have it both ways but the pundits will try and convince you that you can ...

bottom line I do not see this team winning any less than 10 games and 4 to 5 wins in the division ...



Year

Age
Base Salary
Signing
Restructure
Cap Hit
Dead Cap
Yearly Cash



2021 (https://www.spotrac.com/redirect/team/18/cap-2021/)
https://d1dglpr230r57l.cloudfront.net/images/thumb/pit.png
39
$1,075,000
$15,085,000
$9,750,000
$25,910,000
$35,200,000 (https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/ben-roethlisberger-3595/#)
$14,000,000($14,000,000)




Don't forget the $10 million and change they are paying him in 2022 even if he retires or gets hit by a bus. That makes him a $36+ million QB in 2021. That's MVP of the league money. And to be fair, it is also Cousins and Goff money.

I agree the numbers looked good, but they certainly did not seem good when he was down over a yard and a half per completion. Missed open guys often. Declined to take shots deep. Etc.

Last season, Ben played like a QB who can help his team win 8-9 games and get beat in the playoffs by a decent defense. He no longer looks like a QB who can carry the team to playoff victories.

Despite the nice PR of the "pay cut", Ben is still getting paid like a top 5 QB in the NFL. I get that him playing this season was the cheapest and best option for the team. I am 100% behind that idea. I just think that expectations need to be severely tempered. This was not a team that was a piece or two away from dominance. This is a team that beat some mediocre to bad teams early in the year and then got revealed to be doing it with a lot of smoke and mirrors on offense. When defenses adjusted to that, they had nothing. And a big part of that was because the QB simply wasn't very good.

2020 Ben looked to be getting by on savvy and wiles last season. Like a former power pitcher turned junk-baller late in his career. I just don't buy the idea that that improves in 2021.

[Steeler-in-west]

^ He may not need to carry the team, OL and Running game will be improved from last year, better receiving targets (more experienced WR’s, improved TE play) better coordinator to help with playcalling (hopefully) and a better defense (bush returning) a mistake minimal game manager Ben with a few big plays could be enough for a great run

[Dwinsgames]

Don't forget the $10 million and change they are paying him in 2022 even if he retires or gets hit by a bus. That makes him a $36+ million QB in 2021. That's MVP of the league money. And to be fair, it is also Cousins and Goff money.

I agree the numbers looked good, but they certainly did not seem good when he was down over a yard and a half per completion. Missed open guys often. Declined to take shots deep. Etc.

Last season, Ben played like a QB who can help his team win 8-9 games and get beat in the playoffs by a decent defense. He no longer looks like a QB who can carry the team to playoff victories.

Despite the nice PR of the "pay cut", Ben is still getting paid like a top 5 QB in the NFL. I get that him playing this season was the cheapest and best option for the team. I am 100% behind that idea. I just think that expectations need to be severely tempered. This was not a team that was a piece or two away from dominance. This is a team that beat some mediocre to bad teams early in the year and then got revealed to be doing it with a lot of smoke and mirrors on offense. When defenses adjusted to that, they had nothing. And a big part of that was because the QB simply wasn't very good.

2020 Ben looked to be getting by on savvy and wiles last season. Like a former power pitcher turned junk-baller late in his career. I just don't buy the idea that that improves in 2021.


we cant simply ignore the fact that the team led the league in drops either tho ...

[DesertSteel]

It was the worst 12-4 season in Steelers history. Let’s hope for a better 9-8 record or a worse 14-3.

[Mojouw]

we cant simply ignore the fact that the team led the league in drops either tho ...

Good point. It would be cool if some site looked at the drops and categorized them. Drops that are because the receiver just didn’t hang on to it. Drops that were contested by a defensive player. Drops that were from poor ball placement.

We shall see in like 3 months or whatever.

But I don’t think Roethlisberger is all that good anymore. Phil Rivers from last season is likely his ceiling. Maybe Kirk Cousins-ish. Something like that. Those teams had/have spiffy rushing attacks and they still didn’t make deep playoff runs. That’s all I’m saying.

Why? Because I can already feel the outsized Steelers internet expectations building. #1 defense. Watt is DPOY. Harris is a rookie sensation. Friar the TE is a mythical curative for offensive woes. Etc. I just don’t see that ceiling for this roster with the 2020 of Ben R.

[Mojouw]

It is also possible that they mess around and win a SB. Bucs just did that on the back of a stellar pass rush, a good run game, and old man Brady doing just enough to make up the gaps.

[Dwinsgames]

found this interesting ....


Big Ben's inclusion here might be a bit of a surprise to anyone who watched the Steelers' decline in the second half of last season, but if we've known one fact about Roethlisberger for the majority of his career, it's that he's mostly unfazed by pressure. Roethlisberger got the ball out quicker than anyone in the league in 2020 with an average time to throw of 2.30 seconds. He also posted a total expected points added (a metric that gauges how an individual's performance affects the team's scoring output) of -1.9, the highest in the league when under pressure. That essentially means Roethlisberger was minimizing risk/damage while also helping his team advance amid disadvantageous circumstances (for comparison's sake, Carson Wentz (https://www.nfl.com/players/carson-wentz/) posted a -122.3 total EPA when under pressure). Roethlisberger attempted 111 passes under pressure, the fifth-highest total of those on this list, yet he still threw only one interception. Finally, Roethlisberger is known as a tower of a quarterback who is highly difficult to bring down, and that shined through in the stats. He took just 13 sacks under pressure, tied for the fewest in the league. Roethlisberger didn't look great down the stretch, sure, but when his team's average offensive line (ranked 17th by PFF (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020-offensive-line-rankings)) didn't do its part, he still overcame adversity at a rate that was among the best in the league.


full thing here Ben's rank was 5th in the league https://www.nfl.com/news/next-gen-stats-top-10-qbs-under-pressure-in-2020-ryan-fitzpatrick-outshines-comp

[Iron Steeler]

1. ZERO RUN support doesnt help.
2. He got a knee injury mid season that he couldnt quite fully recover from, he was immobile.

So late season into the playoffs, with no run game, and a QB that cant move, all defenses had to do was start tipping passes since tehy new Ben was only throwing from one spot.

This year we need to have a run game. If we have a run game, hopefully we can keep Ben healthy when we need him most... the superbowl
\

[Mojouw]

So this is the stat or stats that have to change, in my opinion, for 2021 to have much of a different outcome than 2020. https://steelersdepot.com/2021/06/roethlisberger-ranked-last-in-ypa-on-list-of-27-qbs-with-at-least-650-attempts-since-2019/

Traditionally, Ben is over about 9 in intended air yards....last year...7. Even getting it to about 8 would be more than enough to change the offense in a positive way. Here's hoping!

[Dwinsgames]

Play action is going to be an emphasis ( or so they are claiming ) ... Remember Ben in the Cowher era , he had a solid PA game and was in my mind one of the better play action QBs in the league .... now these youngsters are writing about " can Ben learn to PA " can you teach the old dog new tricks ? clearly they are youngsters because he was one of the best at it , he didnt start sucking at it all the sudden they just quit doing it about when B.A. took the reigns of OC and never looked back ...

with the quick throwing and a solid PA game you're buying time you do not necessarily need but those missed steps by defenders can loom large if they get caught peeking into the backfield

[86WARD]

Play action is going to be an emphasis ( or so they are claiming ) ... Remember Ben in the Cowher era , he had a solid PA game and was in my mind one of the better play action QBs in the league .... now these youngsters are writing about " can Ben learn to PA " can you teach the old dog new tricks ? clearly they are youngsters because he was one of the best at it , he didnt start sucking at it all the sudden they just quit doing it about when B.A. took the reigns of OC and never looked back ...

with the quick throwing and a solid PA game you're buying time you do not necessarily need but those missed steps by defenders can loom large if they get caught peeking into the backfield

Good post.

[DesertSteel]

Play action is going to be an emphasis ( or so they are claiming ) ... Remember Ben in the Cowher era , he had a solid PA game and was in my mind one of the better play action QBs in the league .... now these youngsters are writing about " can Ben learn to PA " can you teach the old dog new tricks ? clearly they are youngsters because he was one of the best at it , he didnt start sucking at it all the sudden they just quit doing it about when B.A. took the reigns of OC and never looked back ...

with the quick throwing and a solid PA game you're buying time you do not necessarily need but those missed steps by defenders can loom large if they get caught peeking into the backfield
Who's claiming this other than the media and fans? Has anyone with the Steelers made this claim? I haven't seen it yet.

[Dwinsgames]

Who's claiming this other than the media and fans? Has anyone with the Steelers made this claim? I haven't seen it yet.


just seeing people write about it ... and proclamations that motion and play action are a large part of what Canada likes to do on offense


(https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2021/6/1/22461945/steelers-2021-offense-in-focus-matt-canada-using-the-run-to-set-up-the-pass-nfl-news-update)

[Born2Steel]

This is a breakdown from one site on what a Canada-run offense looks like:
https://steelersdepot.com/2021/02/film-room-matt-canadas-coaching-philosophy/

This is from another site:
https://stillcurtain.com/2021/01/19/steelers-offense-like-matt-canada/

And always a third:
https://coachtube.com/course/football/master-of-disguise-breaking-down-the-matt-canada-offense/947495

[HollywoodSteel]

Ben seems to have a completely different attitude when it comes to adapting and learning the new verbiage than he did when transitioning to Todd Haley’s offense.

According to this article Ben was engaged in “power struggle” with Randy Fichtner, which I find totally odd as they were like beat buds. Perhaps the author is overstating things.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/32690/how-steelers-new-offense-could-prolong-ben-roethlisbergers-career%3fplatform=amp

[EzraTank]

I can see what you are saying, but if you can't throw 500-600+ passes over the course of a season then maybe you shouldn't be a 30 some million dollar NFL QB.

The accuracy and ball placement issues were there from Week 1. Even when Ben's arm was fresh and the team was running the ball effectively, he still was way off on deep passes and was scattershot with hitting moving targets.

Yes but you were used to a "standard" with Ben. Now go back to 2019 and remember the Duck & Rudolph and how BAD they were on everything you just described.

[ETL]

Só why would Ben’s arm be stronger this year? Because he’s older? What is he? 14 years old?
If anything he’s going to be weaker and more fragile because he’s older

[Mojouw]

Yes but you were used to a "standard" with Ben. Now go back to 2019 and remember the Duck & Rudolph and how BAD they were on everything you just described.

Sure. Which is why Ben was/is the “best” option for 2021. But better than Duckdolph doesn’t mean good.

Say Ben can be the 16th ranked QB…they can win a bunch of games but come playoffs….meh?

[86WARD]

Sure. Which is why Ben was/is the “best” option for 2021. But better than Duckdolph doesn’t mean good.

Say Ben can be the 16th ranked QB…they can win a bunch of games but come playoffs….meh?

There are QBs that played much worse and won Super Bowls…and you could argue Ben is one of them.

Williams, Rypien, Dilfer, Johnson, Namath to name a few. Obviously the good defense (which the Steelers have) and a decent run game (which is debate-able at this point) help but that’s not out of the question even a little bit. A “16th ranked Ben”, a decent running game and a top ranked defense could win a Super Bowl.

[Mojouw]

There are QBs that played much worse and won Super Bowls…and you could argue Ben is one of them.

Williams, Rypien, Dilfer, Johnson, Namath to name a few. Obviously the good defense (which the Steelers have) and a decent run game (which is debate-able at this point) help but that’s not out of the question even a little bit. A “16th ranked Ben”, a decent running game and a top ranked defense could win a Super Bowl.

The most recent of those was 20 years ago. It’s not impossible but it is a zero margin of error situation. If Ben can no longer make top tier QB plays then the Steelers must always win the turnover battle, always significantly outrush the opponent, dominate TOP, and maintain an astounding pass rush.

All possible but not all probable.

The two most recent “bad” QBs to win SBs, played lights out in the playoffs to get to the SB. Bens first SB playoff run was great aside from the SB. Then there was “playoff Flacco” who was incredible.

If you watched the Steelers last season and saw a SB caliber quarterback, you and I have extremely different and likely irreconcilable viewpoints on what a championship team looks like in this version of the NFL.

Right now I feel that Ben tops out at Jimmy G levels. The 49ers have a dominant run game, a really good line, the best TE in football, skilled receivers, and a high end defense. They looked at all that and decided they needed to trade the farm to take a chance on a high end QB prospect instead of a healthy Jimmy G. That tells me about all I need to know.

[Mojouw]

The Colts with Rivers, the Saints with Brees, and the Giants with Manning all tried a version of the formula described and it didn’t work. In contrast it did work for the Bucs.

I’ve said before that it could work. It might. I’ll enjoy the season no matter what. I support Ben playing QB this season for a variety of reasons. I have low expectations and have tried to outline why.

[RunNGun]

Ben's limited in what he can do in PA. You can no longer roll him out without worrying about him getting swarmed by defenders. You add his lack of mobility, as well as a piss poor running game...then you get an ineffective playaction game.

Najee and Freirermuth should help, especially inside the 20, but IMO, we will not be seeing too much play action until we are in the RZ. There's less risk and higher reward in the RZ. Another reason I can't see us utilizing playaction outside of the redzone is due to the 3 point stance of the OL. Tough to run playaction out of 3 point stances with a statue at QB.

[86WARD]

The most recent of those was 20 years ago. It’s not impossible but it is a zero margin of error situation. If Ben can no longer make top tier QB plays then the Steelers must always win the turnover battle, always significantly outrush the opponent, dominate TOP, and maintain an astounding pass rush.

All possible but not all probable.

The two most recent “bad” QBs to win SBs, played lights out in the playoffs to get to the SB. Bens first SB playoff run was great aside from the SB. Then there was “playoff Flacco” who was incredible.

If you watched the Steelers last season and saw a SB caliber quarterback, you and I have extremely different and likely irreconcilable viewpoints on what a championship team looks like in this version of the NFL.

Right now I feel that Ben tops out at Jimmy G levels. The 49ers have a dominant run game, a really good line, the best TE in football, skilled receivers, and a high end defense. They looked at all that and decided they needed to trade the farm to take a chance on a high end QB prospect instead of a healthy Jimmy G. That tells me about all I need to know.

Nick Foles isn’t good. That was only a few years ago. Hell, that whole team wasn’t all that great. You can spin it negative or you can spin it positive…bottom line is QBs, average and below average ones have won Super Bowls with teams similarly designed like the Steelers seem to be building.

The beginning of the season, Ben was a Super Bowl Caliber QB. To say otherwise is just hating on him and trying to knit pick on him. Is he a Top-10 QB now? Probably not. Is he bottom-10? Probably not. I don’t think anyone would be upset if he was a healthy Jimmy G. With the team that was fielded last season, plus somewhat of a run game, that team could go deep into the playoffs.

[Mojouw]

Nick Foles isn’t good. That was only a few years ago. Hell, that whole team wasn’t all that great. You can spin it negative or you can spin it positive…bottom line is QBs, average and below average ones have won Super Bowls with teams similarly designed like the Steelers seem to be building.

The beginning of the season, Ben was a Super Bowl Caliber QB. To say otherwise is just hating on him and trying to knit pick on him. Is he a Top-10 QB now? Probably not. Is he bottom-10? Probably not. I don’t think anyone would be upset if he was a healthy Jimmy G. With the team that was fielded last season, plus somewhat of a run game, that team could go deep into the playoffs.

But look at the production that the Iggles coaxed out of Foles in that run. It was excellent. Over 14 yards a completion. 64% completion. 27-2 TD to INT. Those are great #s.

Same with Goff for like 2 years.

In both cases the league caught up with the limitations in their games and “poof” they turned into pumpkins.

Kinda like how when 2020 teams defended like they were playing really good pre-injury Ben, it went okay. Then once they realized they weren’t playing that guy - “poof” - offense craters.

[Steeler-in-west]

like the article says, inept OL and running game may be bigger factors than we think, and pinning the state of the deep passing game on Ben’s arm is very possibly an overreaction, the decision to release Sarret, and rebuild the running game can be more closer to the truth.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2021/2/27/22303573/the-criticism-of-ben-roethlisberger-needs-to-be-put-into-perspective-pittsburgh-steelers (https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2021/2/27/22303573/the-criticism-of-ben-roethlisberger-needs-to-be-put-into-perspective-pittsburgh-steelers)

I know it’s from February but thought the points made were worth bringing up again

[86WARD]

But look at the production that the Iggles coaxed out of Foles in that run. It was excellent. Over 14 yards a completion. 64% completion. 27-2 TD to INT. Those are great #s.

Same with Goff for like 2 years.

In both cases the league caught up with the limitations in their games and “poof” they turned into pumpkins.

Kinda like how when 2020 teams defended like they were playing really good pre-injury Ben, it went okay. Then once they realized they weren’t playing that guy - “poof” - offense craters.

Right. So you sound like you are basing the 2021 season on the 2020 offense which has been allegedly changed and revamped.

Ben was putting up the “Nick Foles” playoff numbers through the first 11 games (minus ypc). Then things seemed to fizzle off. Nothing definitely says he can’t do that again. Especially if teams come out to defend the short pass and the Steelers offense returns to somewhat normal…

:dunno:

[EzraTank]

There are QBs that played much worse and won Super Bowls…and you could argue Ben is one of them.

Williams, Rypien, Dilfer, Johnson, Namath to name a few. Obviously the good defense (which the Steelers have) and a decent run game (which is debate-able at this point) help but that’s not out of the question even a little bit. A “16th ranked Ben”, a decent running game and a top ranked defense could win a Super Bowl.

Exactly, the Broncos won with Peyton in 2016 and Manning was in WAY worse shape at that point of his career then Ben is. Manning "managed" that Superbowl and didn't throw any TD's and he's the #3 guy all time for TD passes. If we can get to a Superbowl this year, I'd be happy with Ben's experience starting the game.

[Dwinsgames]

Who's claiming this other than the media and fans? Has anyone with the Steelers made this claim? I haven't seen it yet.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4wGw5Q1v2w

[DesertSteel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4wGw5Q1v2w
Yeah I’ve since heard his comments. Honestly it sounds like something he’d say any of the past 5 years. I’ll be happy when I SEE IT.

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3c6CISWQAIr-B1?format=jpg&name=small

[Dwinsgames]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3c6CISWQAIr-B1?format=jpg&name=small

apparently someone needs to learn the definition of worst ?

I mean statistically speaking Ben Ran the North last year as its best QB ... but hey never let facts get in the way of a Opinion of a failed GM ... oops did I say failed GM , yep I sure did

[Rotorhead]

Só why would Ben’s arm be stronger this year? Because he’s older? What is he? 14 years old?
If anything he’s going to be weaker and more fragile because he’s older

I am a year older and a year removed from my shoulder surgery, and my arm is stronger so . . .

[hawaiiansteeler]

apparently someone needs to learn the definition of worst ?

I mean statistically speaking Ben Ran the North last year as its best QB ... but hey never let facts get in the way of a Opinion of a failed GM ... oops did I say failed GM , yep I sure did

Tannenbaum is the GM who selected Mark Sanchez and Vernon Gholston 5th and 6th overall and who also selected a kicker as his first pick in the draft (2nd round).

I think we see why he doesn't have a position in any front office since 2018, so I take anything he says with a huge grain of salt.

[86WARD]

Tannenbaum is the GM who selected Mark Sanchez and Vernon Gholston 5th and 6th overall and who also selected a kicker as his first pick in the draft (2nd round).

I think we see why he doesn't have a position in any front office since 2018, so I take anything he says with a huge grain of salt.

Well he does seem to know the definition of “worst” from experience...

[DesertSteel]

I am a year older and a year removed from my shoulder surgery, and my arm is stronger so . . .
As happy as I am for you... could we all stop with our injury/recovery comparisons with professional athletes? It couldn't be more apples and oranges.

[Dwinsgames]

As happy as I am for you... could we all stop with our injury/recovery comparisons with professional athletes? It couldn't be more apples and oranges.

why ?

because we do not get the same medical attention ?

I call bullshit on that one if thats the case , I had my shoulder done 28 years ago and the guy who did it was Jack Failla http://www.theimecenter.com/blank.htm



(http://www.theimecenter.com/blank.htm)

[hawaiiansteeler]

why ?

because we do not get the same medical attention ?

I call bullshit on that one if thats the case , I had my shoulder done 28 years ago and the guy who did it was Jack Failla http://www.theimecenter.com/blank.htm

(http://www.theimecenter.com/blank.htm)

how did you hurt your shoulder?

[teegre]

how did you hurt your shoulder?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r_dXbWf2Aw

[Dwinsgames]

how did you hurt your shoulder?

was carrying a 5 gallon bucket full of coolant for my cnc machine at work and someone stretched a air hose across the floor between the supply room and my machine , I seen it at the last moment side stepped to go past a coil in the hose and the handle of the bucket caught on the handle of a cabinet door and tore a bunch of shit in my shoulder cause I didnt let go of the bucket of coolant ...

[DesertSteel]

why ?

because we do not get the same medical attention ?

I call bullshit on that one if thats the case , I had my shoulder done 28 years ago and the guy who did it was Jack Failla http://www.theimecenter.com/blank.htm



(http://www.theimecenter.com/blank.htm)
Because what the average Joe is required to do physically after recovery is not remotely close to what an NFL player has to do on a physical level. It has nothing to do with medical treatment.

[Dwinsgames]

Because what the average Joe is required to do physically after recovery is not remotely close to what an NFL player has to do on a physical level. It has nothing to do with medical treatment.


there are plenty of jobs that are just as or more physically demanding that playing a sport ..

if you dont think so go hustle block and mortar for a couple block layers for a day or two , tossing block 2 scaffold high , mixing mud , hoisting it up etc ... that is more of a workout than most people on the planet get on a daily basis for sure , very physically demanding

[DesertSteel]

there are plenty of jobs that are just as or more physically demanding that playing a sport ..

if you dont think so go hustle block and mortar for a couple block layers for a day or two , tossing block 2 scaffold high , mixing mud , hoisting it up etc ... that is more of a workout than most people on the planet get on a daily basis for sure , very physically demanding

Still not the same. I'm not discounting that some have physically demanding jobs. But I'm referring to the level of athleticism that is required to perform a professional athlete's job. But if you just want to be right, then OK.

[Dwinsgames]

Still not the same. I'm not discounting that some have physically demanding jobs. But I'm referring to the level of athleticism that is required to perform a professional athlete's job. But if you just want to be right, then OK.

To the bold I could say the exact same thing , I mean this is the FIRST time you are using the word athleticism as the argument , before it was physically demanding two completely different arguments


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by DesertSteel http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php?p=770233#post770233)
Because what the average Joe is required to do physically after recovery is not remotely close to what an NFL player has to do on a physical level. It has nothing to do with medical treatment.

[DesertSteel]

To the bold I could say the exact same thing , I mean this is the FIRST time you are using the word athleticism as the argument , before it was physically demanding two completely different arguments
Seriously, I thought that the subject of being a PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE implied athleticism.

[hawaiiansteeler]

was carrying a 5 gallon bucket full of coolant for my cnc machine at work and someone stretched a air hose across the floor between the supply room and my machine , I seen it at the last moment side stepped to go past a coil in the hose and the handle of the bucket caught on the handle of a cabinet door and tore a bunch of shit in my shoulder cause I didnt let go of the bucket of coolant ...

ouch!

hopefully workers comp paid for all your medical expenses.

[Dwinsgames]

ouch!

hopefully workers comp paid for all your medical expenses.


yeah ouch sums it up pretty much ....

luckily 100% covered ...

[Steeler-in-west]

I don’t think Ben would’ve retuned if he didn’t think he could play at a high level

[Rotorhead]

As happy as I am for you... could we all stop with our injury/recovery comparisons with professional athletes? It couldn't be more apples and oranges.

I guess I don’t understand your logic? Because Ben is an athlete his elbow is somehow different? It is biology, if your arm, leg, stomach is cut into, in order to get the strength back it requires time and PT. Why wouldn’t Ben’s elbow/arm be stronger a year removed from his surgery like my shoulder. I was able to most things a few months after my surgery, but my shoulder would get fatigued much quicker and I could stop using it for awhile. Ben couldn’t do that, he had to use his elbow more as the season wore on, and honestly I think his inaccuracy and deep ball suffered from fatigue (and the terrible gameplan). I fully expect him to be better this year AND pissed off that everyone is writing him off as washed up. I hope he plays with that chip in his shoulder all season into the playoffs.

PS I just had my shoulder scoped and a bone spur cleaned out (had a frozen shoulder) and it took a year to get back to 100%. Granted my PT was cut short due to COVID, but I still did all the stuff I was supposed to do. Ben had multiple tendons re-attached, far more invasive.

[Mojouw]

I guess I don’t understand your logic? Because Ben is an athlete his elbow is somehow different? It is biology, if your arm, leg, stomach is cut into, in order to get the strength back it requires time and PT. Why wouldn’t Ben’s elbow/arm be stronger a year removed from his surgery like my shoulder. I was able to most things a few months after my surgery, but my shoulder would get fatigued much quicker and I could stop using it for awhile. Ben couldn’t do that, he had to use his elbow more as the season wore on, and honestly I think his inaccuracy and deep ball suffered from fatigue (and the terrible gameplan). I fully expect him to be better this year AND pissed off that everyone is writing him off as washed up. I hope he plays with that chip in his shoulder all season into the playoffs.

PS I just had my shoulder scoped and a bone spur cleaned out (had a frozen shoulder) and it took a year to get back to 100%. Granted my PT was cut short due to COVID, but I still did all the stuff I was supposed to do. Ben had multiple tendons re-attached, far more invasive.

For me, the difference is that if I need to fix my elbow, it just has to come back and do basic elbow things. Range of motion, ease of movement, lift some stuff, or whatever. An NFL QB has to retain the ability to throw a football through a brick wall while hitting a specific brick at a specific time from 50 yards away. That places a FAR higher demand on the basic physical structures than me going out and engaging in my job activities that range from typing and moving a computer mouse on the easy end to to lifting 30-50 pounds, to hand digging holes for a couple of hours on the higher load end. If I lose some strength and stamina in the elbow, would anyone besides me notice the difference? Even a touch here or a bit there and that is a massive and obvious difference for a high-end pro athlete.

[Born2Steel]

I am a year older and a year removed from my shoulder surgery, and my arm is stronger so . . .

The way I read this statement is not as a comparison to Ben at all. The question posed was why would Ben's arm be stronger with Ben being a year older. The point I took here was about Ben being 1 year removed from the surgery and 1 year recovered from the injury, so that is why it would be stronger even if Ben is 1 year older. Rotorhead merely answered a dumbass question with the obvious answer, IMO.

[Dwinsgames]

https://i.postimg.cc/4dsgbW25/201638781-1954826784674332-3431701516078482269-n.jpg

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://i.postimg.cc/4dsgbW25/201638781-1954826784674332-3431701516078482269-n.jpg

Mark Kaboly
@MarkKaboly

To be fair about Canada's quote on Ben, I think he was talking about specifics routes and concepts that Ben is comfortable with and not necessarily no play-action, no running the ball and throwing the ball 50 times.

June 15

https://twitter.com/MarkKaboly/status/1404824946753351685?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1404824946753351685%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

[Dwinsgames]

Mark Kaboly
@MarkKaboly

To be fair about Canada's quote on Ben, I think he was talking about specifics routes and concepts that Ben is comfortable with and not necessarily no play-action, no running the ball and throwing the ball 50 times.

June 15

https://twitter.com/MarkKaboly/status/1404824946753351685?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1404824946753351685%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

the red looms large ....

Kaboly isn't a proven thinker but it looks like he is a world class eater tho

[Dwinsgames]

DJ picking up right where he left off last year it seems .....


1404888169913389064

[DesertSteel]

https://i.postimg.cc/4dsgbW25/201638781-1954826784674332-3431701516078482269-n.jpg
That's the Steelers offense that we all know so very well!!

[hawaiiansteeler]

Tannenbaum Says Big Ben Will Be Bad In 2021: ‘I Expect Him To Be Benched By The Middle Of The Season’

by: Dave Bryan

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/07/tannenbaum-says-big-ben-will-be-bad-in-2021-i-expect-him-to-be-benched-by-the-middle-of-the-season/

[Shoes]

Tannenbaum Says Big Ben Will Be Bad In 2021: ‘I Expect Him To Be Benched By The Middle Of The Season’

by: Dave Bryan

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/07/tannenbaum-says-big-ben-will-be-bad-in-2021-i-expect-him-to-be-benched-by-the-middle-of-the-season/


Didn't read it because I'm sure its the same old Sh##. People have gone mad craving attention. Talk about a pandemic! Why do these people think their opinion matters?

[Dwinsgames]

Seriously, I thought that the subject of being a PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE implied athleticism.

my bad I forgot Tom Brady was "athletic" just because someone plays a professional sport does not make them automatically athletic ...

pro bowlers , golfers many QB's , nose tackles , mauling guards are far from athletic but they are pro athletes

[tube517]

Tannenbaum Says Big Ben Will Be Bad In 2021: ‘I Expect Him To Be Benched By The Middle Of The Season’

by: Dave Bryan

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/07/tannenbaum-says-big-ben-will-be-bad-in-2021-i-expect-him-to-be-benched-by-the-middle-of-the-season/

Yay! the GM who drafted Booger Butt Fumble!

[Steeler-in-west]

DJ picking up right where he left off last year it seems .....


1404888169913389064

is that Haskins in the number 3 jersey? He looks twice the size of Dobbs, width-wise....no wonder he can't run

[86WARD]

I’m Pretty sure if the Steelers went 1-7 and Ben was healthy, they wouldn’t bench him.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Yay! the GM who drafted Booger Butt Fumble!

when Tannenbaum was let go it marked the End of an Error.

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRWY6DsSuFc

[Born2Steel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRWY6DsSuFc

Same stuff some of us have been arguing all off-season. The suck does not fall on Ben. It falls on poor OL play, dropped passes, shotgun and horizontal offensive scheme allowing defenses the advantage. If the OL becomes a middle of the pack OL and the drop issues get fixed, this offense will do well. If not, it won't matter who's calling plays or under center.

[DesertSteel]

Out of all the radio guys out there, I dislike McAfee the most. A former punter who plays tough guy and likes to hear himself talk.

[Craic]

Out of all the radio guys out there, I dislike McAfee the most. A former punter who plays tough guy and likes to hear himself talk.

??? He's pretty entertaining and has no problem taking shots at himself. He has a big personality. Personally, I think he should be doing MNF. It'd be a heck of a lot more entertaining, that's for sure.

[Fire Goodell]

my bad I forgot Tom Brady was "athletic" just because someone plays a professional sport does not make them automatically athletic ...

pro bowlers , golfers many QB's , nose tackles , mauling guards are far from athletic but they are pro athletes

I've seen a lot of guards and NT's that were great athletes. Decastro was one of them. I'm willing to bet an average NFL guard or nose tackle can outrun average joe, and easily bench press over 400 lbs. Combining that size with strength / ability to move, these guys are elite athletes. Even seen any of Ziggy Hood's workouts? Even Big Casey as huge as he was could move for a big man.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

DJ picking up right where he left off last year it seems .....


1404888169913389064

Honestly fellas, for what is a 15 yard out from the near hashmark, that ball doesnt get to the sideline with a heck of a lot of velocity. Definitely looks like father time is tugging on the jersey of #7.

[Mojouw]

Honestly fellas, for what is a 15 yard out from the near hashmark, that ball doesnt get to the sideline with a heck of a lot of velocity. Definitely looks like father time is tugging on the jersey of #7.

No. No. Don't you realize that a year older means a year stronger and his arm is A-OK now! Plus last seasons struggles with velocity, accuracy, timing, and fatigue were due to a poor run game, bad offensive line, terrible OC, and the phases of the moon. But nothing to do with the physical degradation of an aging QB coming off a significant injury.

And to be clear, I am well aware that there is a realistic future where I get all of my statements from the past 6 months about Ben R's performance and physical abilities shoved right back at me for mocking and derision. That's fine! But I do refuse to concede the point that it is possible (probable?) that many Steelers fans are far too optimistic about what Ben is as a QB in 2021+.

[Shoes]

I have my doubts about Ben also, but no matter who is throwing to Johnson be it Mahomes, Brady, Rogers or Ben, he is still going to be dropping balls. Perhaps I'm wrong but I can't think of any WR on the Steeler team pasted that had the most NFL drops and turned into a trustworthy, dependable WR.

[Born2Steel]

No. No. Don't you realize that a year older means a year stronger and his arm is A-OK now! Plus last seasons struggles with velocity, accuracy, timing, and fatigue were due to a poor run game, bad offensive line, terrible OC, and the phases of the moon. But nothing to do with the physical degradation of an aging QB coming off a significant injury.

And to be clear, I am well aware that there is a realistic future where I get all of my statements from the past 6 months about Ben R's performance and physical abilities shoved right back at me for mocking and derision. That's fine! But I do refuse to concede the point that it is possible (probable?) that many Steelers fans are far too optimistic about what Ben is as a QB in 2021+.

The funny part is everybody does actually understand that Ben now is less than Ben prime. How much less has always been the point of debate. Year1 back from his surgery was probably a weaker arm overall than year2 back from his surgery will be. That is a point to be proven or disproven. The velocity of one ball thrown in OTAs with pads off isn't even worthy of discussion though. But trolls will find ways to start arguments if things stay quiet too long I guess.

[Mojouw]

The funny part is everybody does actually understand that Ben now is less than Ben prime. How much less has always been the point of debate. Year1 back from his surgery was probably a weaker arm overall than year2 back from his surgery will be. That is a point to be proven or disproven. The velocity of one ball thrown in OTAs with pads off isn't even worthy of discussion though. But trolls will find ways to start arguments if things stay quiet too long I guess.

Fair and valid points. But the constant drumbeat of how it is all the dropped passes, poor o-line play, and a bad OC is, for me personally, irritating. And I realize others mileage may vary, but the general refusal amongst paid Steelers observers and fans to acknowledge that Ben flat out struggled in 2020 regardless of any other issues is more than a bit pie in the sky.

Somehow it has changed from "Ben made all these WRs great" to "the WRs are destroying the offense" without acknowledging the contradiction inherent in those two statements.

Somehow an offensive line with 5 new starters is going to be leaps and bounds better than a highly experienced and decorated line was in one off-season? And that will lead to the QB correcting his accuracy and velocity issues on passes downfield?

It just reads like everyone is desperate to come up with scenarios aside from the obvious one that 2021 Ben R is going to look a heck of a lot like 2020 Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, or the final season or so of Eli Manning.

[Steeler-in-west]

No. No. Don't you realize that a year older means a year stronger and his arm is A-OK now! Plus last seasons struggles with velocity, accuracy, timing, and fatigue were due to a poor run game, bad offensive line, terrible OC, and the phases of the moon. But nothing to do with the physical degradation of an aging QB coming off a significant injury.

And to be clear, I am well aware that there is a realistic future where I get all of my statements from the past 6 months about Ben R's performance and physical abilities shoved right back at me for mocking and derision. That's fine! But I do refuse to concede the point that it is possible (probable?) that many Steelers fans are far too optimistic about what Ben is as a QB in 2021+.

that’s just one pass, you have to sit through a whole day of practice watching Ben throw to make a good assessment of his passing - that’s what the coaches are doing. If Ben is really struggling with his passing we’ll hear about it soon enough. I don’t think he himself would want to put the team in a tough spot if he were struggling- I think he would call it quits at that point.

[Born2Steel]

Fair and valid points. But the constant drumbeat of how it is all the dropped passes, poor o-line play, and a bad OC is, for me personally, irritating. And I realize others mileage may vary, but the general refusal amongst paid Steelers observers and fans to acknowledge that Ben flat out struggled in 2020 regardless of any other issues is more than a bit pie in the sky.

Somehow it has changed from "Ben made all these WRs great" to "the WRs are destroying the offense" without acknowledging the contradiction inherent in those two statements.

Somehow an offensive line with 5 new starters is going to be leaps and bounds better than a highly experienced and decorated line was in one off-season? And that will lead to the QB correcting his accuracy and velocity issues on passes downfield?

It just reads like everyone is desperate to come up with scenarios aside from the obvious one that 2021 Ben R is going to look a heck of a lot like 2020 Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, or the final season or so of Eli Manning.

Truth is Ben did make a lot of WRs look great. Truth is the WRs dropped a lot of passes last season that killed offensive drives. No contradiction at all. The OL discussion is a separate one from 2018 Ben vs 2020 Ben vs 2021 Ben. These comparisons to Brees(won the division and made the playoffs) Rivers(made the playoffs) and Eli(didn't play last season) simply do not make nor break either side of the discussion about Ben's performance either. You make the prediction that Ben will be terrible/washed up/a mere shadow of his former self in 2021. I get it. Just because some disagree with that prediction does not make us all near sighted or Ben goggled. You are pessimistic about nearly every facet of this team heading into 2021. You have been consistent in this for a long while now. I get it. But if upbeat talk about the upcoming season is irritating to you maybe stop reading those for a while. The political threads on here are irritating and annoying to me, I don't read those.

One last thought...If I talk up my team and players that never makes me wrong. Saying I think the different position groups and players will have a better 2021 than 2020 is not something I'll ever have to come back and eat crow on.

[Mojouw]

Truth is Ben did make a lot of WRs look great. Truth is the WRs dropped a lot of passes last season that killed offensive drives. No contradiction at all. The OL discussion is a separate one from 2018 Ben vs 2020 Ben vs 2021 Ben. These comparisons to Brees(won the division and made the playoffs) Rivers(made the playoffs) and Eli(didn't play last season) simply do not make nor break either side of the discussion about Ben's performance either. You make the prediction that Ben will be terrible/washed up/a mere shadow of his former self in 2021. I get it. Just because some disagree with that prediction does not make us all near sighted or Ben goggled. You are pessimistic about nearly every facet of this team heading into 2021. You have been consistent in this for a long while now. I get it. But if upbeat talk about the upcoming season is irritating to you maybe stop reading those for a while. The political threads on here are irritating and annoying to me, I don't read those.

One last thought...If I talk up my team and players that never makes me wrong. Saying I think the different position groups and players will have a better 2021 than 2020 is not something I'll ever have to come back and eat crow on.

Sure, never argued against the total # of drops being too much. But refusal to acknowledge that the seeming limitations of the QB helped to create a situation for a great deal of those drops is stubborn optimism for no real reason.

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/06/steelers-2020-drops-charted-contextualized-by-player-with-observations/

Out of 43 drops, 28 (65%) were under 5 yards down the field. Those #'s and my own flawed and hazy memory of the 2020 season, have me picturing a bunch of times WRs had to either, catch the ball and make a move against 1 defender (or more) in order to gain yards, or were on the move and the ball was poorly placed, or a combination of both. Of course, others were totally stationary WRs who just dropped it.

The biggest offender was DJ. All his drops are here: https://steelersdepot.com/2021/06/breakdown-of-2020-drops-by-steelers-wr-diontae-johnson-part-3/

At most, he had 15 drops on 144 targets. That is 10.4%. If you knock out 5 for rough ball placement, then he is about 7%. Are drops still an issue?

Also, look at the drops in the linked chart. That is a ton of drops on early downs within 3 yards of the line of scrimmage. Those stink, but the fact that the offense was reliant on 3 yard passes and making guys miss in order to sustain drives is the root cause here. Why was that? My theory is because the QB was not physically capable of reliably doing much else.

Others claim that is far from the case and the short passing game became the only offensive weapon because the OL was terrible. So I see that as strongly connected. Either the team consistently passed from behind the LOS to 5 yards past the line of scrimmage either because the OL was too bad to protect for any longer or because the QB couldn't hit deeper developing pass routes. So the root cause of that is really important and the two are totally linked. Or is there something I am not seeing?

Optimism is cool. Optimism is great. But when it is not tempered by past precedent it just seems totally unwarranted.

[Shoes]

These are the kind of DJ drops that are an issue imö. I hope catching tennis balls have helped him but I have my doubts, I have doubts about Ben also.

This was against the Bills on 3rd and 7 in Dec


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi-erXIzOKY


looks a bit like college

https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/13748306

[Mojouw]

These are the kind of DJ drops that are an issue imö. I hope catching tennis balls have helped him but I have my doubts, I have doubts about Ben also.

This was against the Bills on 3rd and 7 in Dec


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi-erXIzOKY


looks a bit like college

https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/13748306

No argument from me that DJ has a concentration problem and had a # of passes that an NFL WR has to catch dropped in 2020. BUT...I took a look at the results of those drops and it pushes back a bit against the "stalled the offense" idea.

I used this chart to find the plays in each game: https://steelersdepot.com/2021/06/steelers-2020-drops-charted-contextualized-by-player-with-observations/
Then the box scores/game logs from here to find the drive results: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2020.htm

Results of each drive with a DJ drop in 2020 by week (I omitted the one drop in the playoff game because that game was just a dumpster fire and I don't want to think about it ever again. Kinda like the Godfather III.):
Week 1: TD on drive
Week 2 TD on drive
Week 7: TD on drive
Week 9:Punt on drive, but only after first down made on the series with the drop.
Week 10: Drive ending drop
Week 12: Drop short of the sticks on 3rd down. Drive results in a FG.
Week 12: Drop short of the sticks on 3rd down. Drive results in a Punt. Drive ending drop.
Week 13: TD to DJ later on the drive.
Week 13: Drop (10+ yards short of sticks) on 3rd down. Drive results in a Punt.
Week 13: Drop on early down. DPI on 3rd down results in conversion of the series. Drive ends in FG.
Week 14: Drop on first down. Drive ends in a punt.
Week 14: Drop short of sticks on 3rd down. Drive results in a punt. Drive ending drop.
Week 16: 2 drops on the same series. One on 1st and 10 and the other on 3rd and 10 well short of the sticks. Drive results in punt. Counts as one drive ending drop.

6 out of 14 drops were on drives that resulted in points. 6 out of 14 led to a failed series and a punt. 2 out of 14 dropshad no impact on the series that drop took place on - meaning that the drop took place on a conversion down that was 10+ yards from the drop point.

So that means that DJ stalled the offense on 5 drives (two were on the same series) all season. That hardly seems season altering to me. I am not attempting to say that DJ's drops are "ok" or "not a big deal" but they hardly seem to be the outcome determining factor that I keep reading about.

I am too lazy to do the same thing for any of the other drop prone WRs from last season on the team.

[86WARD]

One player stalled the offense 5 times. Depending the context, that could be extremely significant. It also puts a lack of trust in the team to go to that player in the clutch. I mean if those 5 drops are catches by AB, those could be game changers.

[Mojouw]

One player stalled the offense 5 times. Depending the context, that could be extremely significant. It also puts a lack of trust in the team to go to that player in the clutch. I mean if those 5 drops are catches by AB, those could be game changers.

So if it is 3rd and 12 and a WR drops a 3 yard pass...does it change anything? Is that the same or different than a drop of a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 5? Depending on how you answer those two questions...DJ's game altering drops can shift around between 5 and about 2.

I just find it hard to believe that 5 drops were altering the offensive game-plan and the way the QB played in 2020. DJ was still targeted 144 times!

[Born2Steel]

Sure, never argued against the total # of drops being too much. But refusal to acknowledge that the seeming limitations of the QB helped to create a situation for a great deal of those drops is stubborn optimism for no real reason.

https://steelersdepot.com/2021/06/steelers-2020-drops-charted-contextualized-by-player-with-observations/

Out of 43 drops, 28 (65%) were under 5 yards down the field. Those #'s and my own flawed and hazy memory of the 2020 season, have me picturing a bunch of times WRs had to either, catch the ball and make a move against 1 defender (or more) in order to gain yards, or were on the move and the ball was poorly placed, or a combination of both. Of course, others were totally stationary WRs who just dropped it.

The biggest offender was DJ. All his drops are here: https://steelersdepot.com/2021/06/breakdown-of-2020-drops-by-steelers-wr-diontae-johnson-part-3/

At most, he had 15 drops on 144 targets. That is 10.4%. If you knock out 5 for rough ball placement, then he is about 7%. Are drops still an issue?

Also, look at the drops in the linked chart. That is a ton of drops on early downs within 3 yards of the line of scrimmage. Those stink, but the fact that the offense was reliant on 3 yard passes and making guys miss in order to sustain drives is the root cause here. Why was that? My theory is because the QB was not physically capable of reliably doing much else.

Others claim that is far from the case and the short passing game became the only offensive weapon because the OL was terrible. So I see that as strongly connected. Either the team consistently passed from behind the LOS to 5 yards past the line of scrimmage either because the OL was too bad to protect for any longer or because the QB couldn't hit deeper developing pass routes. So the root cause of that is really important and the two are totally linked. Or is there something I am not seeing?

Optimism is cool. Optimism is great. But when it is not tempered by past precedent it just seems totally unwarranted.

I already stated "last thought...". Done with this conversation.

[Steeler-in-west]

If you look at Ben’s stats you would not think there was much of a drop off, the only thing that deviates from the other seasons is the yards per completion 9.5 down from the career average of 12 and sacks - only 13, which is also down from typical 25. Everything else looks good, completion %, total yards are comparable, TD-int ratio is great - that tells me it was weak O-line get the ball out in a hurry scheme - it doesn’t look like Ben going downhill at all - this season will reveal the real truth of course - but I still think if there were real issues with his arm he wouldn’t have come back nor the Steelers have brought him back - I give both sides judgement more credit than some do

[86WARD]

So if it is 3rd and 12 and a WR drops a 3 yard pass...does it change anything? Is that the same or different than a drop of a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 5? Depending on how you answer those two questions...DJ's game altering drops can shift around between 5 and about 2.

I just find it hard to believe that 5 drops were altering the offensive game-plan and the way the QB played in 2020. DJ was still targeted 144 times!

Depending on the context, yeah it totally could.

[Mojouw]

Depending on the context, yeah it totally could.

The context is in my post above. Or what else are the factors you’re considering?

[86WARD]

The context is in my post above. Or what else are the factors you’re considering?

You said that 5 drops doesn’t seem altering to you. If 5 drops happens in a different context…which it could, it could be season altering. He clearly has a history of drops. Second in the league if I remember correctly…maybe most. I can’t remember.

So yeah…could be altering seeing the history is there…

[Mojouw]

You said that 5 drops doesn’t seem altering to you. If 5 drops happens in a different context…which it could, it could be season altering. He clearly has a history of drops. Second in the league if I remember correctly…maybe most. I can’t remember.

So yeah…could be altering seeing the history is there…

Ok. That is why I think that DJ's being prone to drops is more than a bit troubling. He could drop 5 in 2021 that all would have been game winning TDs or allowed conversions on critical downs. But...the offensive struggles in 2020 had very little, at least when I went through it, to do with his drops. Maybe Claypools or Erbrons were more impactful?

I just think that everyone see's the drops # and says "Well, there you go! That is the cause of the 2020 Steelers offensive struggles." and I don' think it is really true. It certainly didn't help one little bit...but the problems run far deeper than that.

[86WARD]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210729/abf80efd81f719a264fbffdbe69b779e.jpg

[DesertSteel]

^^^^

The next picture is the ball going through his hands!

[Steeler-in-west]

He’s just planning too far ahead

[Dissolv]

TD-int ratio is great - that tells me it was weak O-line get the ball out in a hurry scheme

I totally agree with this. They could not run, and the quick pass scheme was definitely at least partially to protect the weakness of the Oline. Ben was also coming off shoulder surgery, and had trouble with the deep ball. Of the two components, the QB and the OLine, the Oline definitely would be the portion I would not keep of the two. I mean, I wasn't thinking that we'd lose freakin' everybody, but Ben doesn't look washed up. He looks like he needs offensive support. Yes, that does mean less drops. But it also means a credible run game, and more reliable time in the pocket to try to get those deep throws in. We (the fans) don't know if the shoulder (and knees) were holding him back, or if it is going to be better this year, but it isn't unreasonable to at least have a wait and see attitude about it.

Father time is going to get Ben at some point, but he is also very tough, and you don't need a perfect QB to win the super bowl. Manning went 13-of-23 for 141 yards and only scored 2 points via passing in the 2015 season Super bowl WIN. Oh yeah, 1 interception and 5 sacks. I'm thinking Ben has more in the gas tank than that -- look at the Cleveland comeback attempt last year. That's a banged up Ben doing all that with no run support and a defense that seemed to wander off in search of a snack. (Okay, they had accumulated injuries that hurt)

I"m a LOT more concerned about the supporting cast than I am about Ben. We lost the whole Oline and some key defensive players. On the other hand, the front office has been working overtime it seems, and appears to have some type of plan. So at least, as a fan, I get to look forward to a season that isn't doomed. It might wind up being a terrible team. But it isn't the Bengals either. They surprised me last year with that red hot 11-0 start. Let's see if they can do something like that again.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Chase Claypool: Ben Roethlisberger’s putting the ball where it needs to be

Posted by Josh Alper on August 2, 2021

When Steelers training camp was getting started last month, quarterback Ben Roethlisberger said that his arm felt fresher than it did last year and one of his wideouts said on Monday that all continues to be well on that front.

Chase Claypool made an appearance on NFL Network and shared that he’s set a goal of 14 touchdown catches after reeling in nine of them during his rookie season. He said he has no doubt that Roethlisberger’s arm is strong and sound enough to deliver that amount of scoring passes.

“He looks great. He’s putting the ball where it needs to be, and that’s all you can ever ask for,” Claypool said. “I’ve never really understood why people always question his arm strength. I don’t think he’s ever displayed in a game where his arm strength was an issue. His timing’s so good, even if his arm strength wasn’t where it was, his timing’s so good, he could time it up to where he doesn’t have to throw a bullet into a tight gap.”

Roethlisberger and the Steelers slumped badly after starting the 2020 season with 11 straight wins, so a fast start isn’t going to clear all doubts about the team’s fitness this time around. It would clear some, however, and it would likely help Claypool’s cause on the touchdown front.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/08/02/chase-claypool-ben-roethlisbergers-putting-the-ball-where-it-needs-to-be/

[Born2Steel]

Be honest here. Show of hands all those that want to see Big Ben Roethlisberger fail and fall flat on his face. At least admit it.

I am of the opinion that Ben will reach at least close to a personal best this season with TD passes, yards per completion, completion %, and TD/INT ratio. This will be a magical season for Steelers nation.

[Dwinsgames]

Be honest here. Show of hands all those that want to see Big Ben Roethlisberger fail and fall flat on his face. At least admit it.

I am of the opinion that Ben will reach at least close to a personal best this season with TD passes, yards per completion, completion %, and TD/INT ratio. This will be a magical season for Steelers nation.


I personally have no clue how well or poorly he will do ...

my thoughts are simple , Father time is undefeated however I do not believe last year was all on Ben ...

protection was not great , line play in general was not good consequently no running game to aid slowing the pass rush or helping get that 3rd and 2 converted ...

Throwing so much does not help an arm that was close to tired before they ever got out of camp due to a year off and surgically repairing damage and the rehab process ...

I think the increased age factor can be erased in the formula ( over last year) because the rehab is also out of the equation making that a push ...

the repair should theoretically make his arm stronger than is was prior to the season ender as that injury wasnt an all at once thing it was ongoing and getting worse and worse until it was fully "broke"


so I look for a typical Ben type season 35 TDs 12 picks 4500 yards and if we get those kind of numbers from him there is no reason we are not a playoff team with SB aspirations if this defense is anything close to what we assume it will be

[DesertSteel]

Be honest here. Show of hands all those that want to see Big Ben Roethlisberger fail and fall flat on his face. At least admit it.

I am of the opinion that Ben will reach at least close to a personal best this season with TD passes, yards per completion, completion %, and TD/INT ratio. This will be a magical season for Steelers nation.
You seriously think there are a lot of Steeler fans that want Ben to fail this year?? I think you're way off. Plenty think he will, but that doesn't mean they want him to. Personally, I think he will end up with good stats, enough wins to get to the playoffs, but will lack the clutch plays when needed to put the team over the top. I guess I just described the last 10 years. But I will enjoy it until we're eliminated.

[Born2Steel]

You seriously think there are a lot of Steeler fans that want Ben to fail this year?? I think you're way off. Plenty think he will, but that doesn't mean they want him to. Personally, I think he will end up with good stats, enough wins to get to the playoffs, but will lack the clutch plays when needed to put the team over the top. I guess I just described the last 10 years. But I will enjoy it until we're eliminated.

I didn't use to. We'll see.

[Steeler-in-west]

but will lack the clutch plays when needed to put the team over the top..

Those clutch plays may come back, a lot of those were with the help of AB, Bell, Hines and Heath Miller,

he’s going to have more help and playmakers around him this year.