Bires: It's time to get over hating Ben

[LLT]

Bires: It's time to get over hating Ben
Mike Bires
Beaver County Times
Tuesday October 5, 2010 11:57 PM


Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, right, talks with wide receiver Mike Wallace during his first practice back after a four-game suspension at the NFL football team's practice facility in Pittsburgh, Tuesday, Oct. 5, 2010. (AP Photo/Keith Srakocic)
PITTSBURGH — From all indications, Ben Roethlisberger is a changed man. He appears sorry for past mistakes that tarnished his image. He seems willing to be just as terrific a person off the field as he is a player on the field.

So maybe it’s time for anyone still angry and disappointed in him to cut the guy a break.

Let’s move on.

Back in April when details of Roethlisberger’s wild birthday binge were made public, so many of us were infuriated with him. We were stunned that he could be so stupid and put himself in position to have a sexual assault accusation levied against him for the second time in less than a year.

Read More: http://www.timesonline.com/sports/sports_details/article/1424/2010/october/05/bires-its-time-to-get-over-hating-ben.html

[vasteeler]

well since i never felt he never did anything wrong i have nothing to get over!!

[GodfatherofSoul]

well since i never felt he never did anything wrong i have nothing to get over!!

QFT

[vasteeler]

QFT

you will have to excuse my ignorance but what is QFT?

[siss]

I forgave him a long time ago.

[memphissteelergirl]

Bires: It's time to get over hating Ben
Mike Bires
Beaver County Times
Tuesday October 5, 2010 11:57 PM


Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, right, talks with wide receiver Mike Wallace during his first practice back after a four-game suspension at the NFL football team's practice facility in Pittsburgh, Tuesday, Oct. 5, 2010. (AP Photo/Keith Srakocic)
PITTSBURGH — From all indications, Ben Roethlisberger is a changed man. He appears sorry for past mistakes that tarnished his image. He seems willing to be just as terrific a person off the field as he is a player on the field.

So maybe it’s time for anyone still angry and disappointed in him to cut the guy a break.

Let’s move on.

Back in April when details of Roethlisberger’s wild birthday binge were made public, so many of us were infuriated with him. We were stunned that he could be so stupid and put himself in position to have a sexual assault accusation levied against him for the second time in less than a year.

Read More: http://www.timesonline.com/sports/sports_details/article/1424/2010/october/05/bires-its-time-to-get-over-hating-ben.html

*Cue the "Hallelujah Chorus"

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

AT LAST! Somebody from the media gets it! NOTHING and I do mean NOTHING is to be gained from harping on Ben's f-up now! It's OVAH! DONE!
And like the article says, he knows he's got a verrrry small window now. And if he screws up again he's got nobody to blame but himself. But setting him up for future failure by continuously bringing up his past mistakes is a recipe for disaster.

So give the man a chance to redeem himself. We all fall short (even tho' I know some folks who wouldn't admit that they do). It's time to finally bury this poor dead horse that has been beaten mercilessly.

[siss]

*Cue the "Hallelujah Chorus"

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

AT LAST! Somebody from the media gets it! NOTHING and I do mean NOTHING is to be gained from harping on Ben's f-up now! It's OVAH! DONE!
And like the article says, he knows he's got a verrrry small window now. And if he screws up again he's got nobody to blame but himself. But setting him up for future failure by continuously bringing up his past mistakes is a recipe for disaster.

So give the man a chance to redeem himself. We all fall short (even tho' I know some folks who wouldn't admit that they do). It's time to finally bury this poor dead horse that has been beaten mercilessly.

Lets bury the One night in Milligville chapter of Steeler history and move on!

[GodfatherofSoul]

you will have to excuse my ignorance but what is QFT?

'quoted for truth' i.e. "I agree" or "Hell yeah!"

[vasteeler]

'quoted for truth' i.e. "I agree" or "Hell yeah!"

ah! learn something new every day

[BlastFurnace]

I was disappointed in Ben, but I have never stopped being a fan of him. From what I have read, this has changed him to be a better person. I have never understood the hatred toward Ben.

[Mtn.Steel]

I wore my BB jersey every game so far this season! That means my authentic Jack Lambert has been riding the couch. Every game day I am torn whether to wear Big Ben of Jack. Tough call every time. My BB jersey is a cheap replica and the JL is a true authentic jersey, stitched numbers and all. My wife has a black HW and wants a white TP for Christmas. How the hell do you choose between Hines and Troy or BB and Jack????

[Texasteel]

I never did hate him, and I sure as hell have no right to expect or ask for an apology.. Glad to see you back Ben.

[steeldawg]

Never started hating him happy as hell he is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edman]

Never did hate Ben. Came dangerously close to.

Disappointed, frustrated, and angry with him, yes I have. Hate him? No.

[Count Steeler]

It never ceases to amaze me how some athletes/famous people think that they are invincible or above the law. I believe the fame just took Ben over, and he traveled with the wrong crowd. I'm hopeful that, firstly, Ben has returned to his roots and understands the value of true character. Secondly, I'm hopeful that he now has a better circle of friends. Thirdly, I'm hopeful that this situation has re-lit his passion for winning and we will all be celebrating #7 for winning #7 for the Steelers. I hope he is the MVP of the Super Bowl.

[vasteeler]

It never ceases to amaze me how some athletes/famous people think that they are invincible or above the law. I believe the fame just took Ben over, and he traveled with the wrong crowd. I'm hopeful that, firstly, Ben has returned to his roots and understands the value of true character. Secondly, I'm hopeful that he now has a better circle of friends. Thirdly, I'm hopeful that this situation has re-lit his passion for winning and we will all be celebrating #7 for winning #7 for the Steelers. I hope he is the MVP of the Super Bowl.

the thing is who has the right to tell him how he is "suppose" to live.:noidea:

[GodfatherofSoul]

It never ceases to amaze me how some athletes/famous people think that they are invincible or above the law. I believe the fame just took Ben over, and he traveled with the wrong crowd. I'm hopeful that, firstly, Ben has returned to his roots and understands the value of true character. Secondly, I'm hopeful that he now has a better circle of friends. Thirdly, I'm hopeful that this situation has re-lit his passion for winning and we will all be celebrating #7 for winning #7 for the Steelers. I hope he is the MVP of the Super Bowl.

And, what law did Ben break again?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Never hated him, just think that he's done a lot of things that are less than ethically moral and he isnt the saint that fans believe.

The hate I saved for Carey Davis for sucking so bad as a FB, yet still being a Steeler for 3 seasons. Now that Bires has called for the cessation of Ben hate, the masses can go back to what they do best.............Arians hate.

[wvsportsman]

Disappointed, frustrated, and angry with him, yes I have. Hate him? No.

Same here!

[Count Steeler]

No one has a right to tell how he is supposed to live, except the organization that he belongs to (Steelers and NFL). I thought for sure that the Steelers would release him. Not just for these 2 indiscretions, but for the lack of respect he was demonstrating for himself and for his teammates.

Don't get me wrong, I have always liked Ben and still do. However, certain athletes get an air of invincibility, and sooner or later they need a reality check.

[Count Steeler]

And, what law did Ben break again?

None that has been proven, to my knowledge. But that was not my point. Athletes can let fame get to them, altering their true character, and can end up making a few bad choices in their lives. I'm sure you can find a myriad of examples in Hollywood and in the sporting arena of fame and fortune ruining brilliant careers.

[LLT]

the thing is who has the right to tell him how he is "suppose" to live.:noidea:

Apparantly the NFL conduct clause...and a little common sense.


Never hated Ben but he PISSED ME OFF by doing his best Bengal player impersonation. I have ALWAYS been able to say that the Steelers organization placed character very high. It was unsettling to have to eat crow there for a while.

But like everyone else...I believe that it doesnt matter where you were...it matters where you are. So if Ben is in a better place in his maturation process, than more power to him and that is how he should be treated.

[LLT]

And, what law did Ben break again?

I think he is using "above the law" as a figure of speech...meaning that Ben thought he was bullet-proof and untouchable there for a while.

[Kaeg]

Quote from the article: "If I were a fan, I don’t know if I’d ever wear a Roethlisberger jersey. But I must admit that I am looking forward to watching him playing football again."


If I had a BB jersey I would still wear it with pride.
(Not that I wasn't disappointed with him. I was. But I dare not cast the first stone. And it's a clean slate now.)

[Craic]

Quote from the article: "If I were a fan, I don’t know if I’d ever wear a Roethlisberger jersey. But I must admit that I am looking forward to watching him playing football again."


If I had a BB jersey I would still wear it with pride.
(Not that I wasn't disappointed with him. I was. But I dare not cast the first stone. And it's a clean slate now.)

Funny, I copied....

If I were a fan, I don’t know if I’d ever wear a Roethlisberger jersey. But I must admit that I am looking forward to watching him playing football again. I just think that it’s time that we all allow Roethlisberger to put his past behind him
I really don't like the title to this article. Who "Hated" Ben? Why is speaking one's mind about how we feel about a topic considered "hate", as if I had to show my undying loyalty to a player that did something which, I considered completely morally offensive to me. I didn't, don't and won't hate Ben. I have a lot more qualms about him and will be biting my nails this coming off-season to be honest. That isn't hate. That is simply reality based on a established pattern. I also believe he scared her into doing things. I don't believe he meant to. But I believe he did. Is that "hating on him?" Nope. That is using my own context to understand that situation. Concluding something about someone is far from hating them.

However, as said before, Anyone who thinks an apology is owed TO THEM, is simply wrong. He obviously offended two women. IT would be them, and his teamates and coach (and Steelers organization and through them, the NFL, as it is a reflection on their business name), and his family that is owed an apology. NO ONE ELSE. He has done that. So it is over.

As for me, well. The above quote says it all. I'll never wear his jersey because I don't like the association (don't own a jersey from an offensive player anyway-:chuckle:). However, I too look forward to him coming back. I seriously am happy that he seems to be making right choices now, and I would be ecstatic if people allowed him to put his past behind him and move on to become the man God intended him to be.

Just one question. Would we give Ray Lewis, Donte Stallworth, Pacman Jones, Michael Vick, or anyone else the same grace? Don't tell me its different. The core of this article that everyone is citing is simple. He did his time. Now accept him as being changed. Why just Ben?

[Butch]

I also believe he scared her into doing things.

Based on what?

[Craic]

Based on what?

Doesn't matter at this point. Its my belief. I really don't want to argue it for the 3000th time. It's just my belief based on my education, experiences, and working with people.

Never claimed it as fact, because I can't prove it. Nor can the fact that everything was copacetic be proven. Anything any of us have, is a belief... Not a fact.

[Butch]

Fair enough, but based on her being under age in a bar makes me believe Ben was not forcing her into getting drunk, and based on her telling him her initials were DTF tells me she was looking for something more than just a drink. I don't know if she changed her mind that night or the next day or to that effect what caused her to change her mind, fear, friends, family, reputation, guilty conscience, fame or greed or a combination of these, but to me I don't believe it was rape or even forced sex, but that is my opinion.

Maybe she needs to be held accountable for those actions as well as her friends who "Supported" her. A friend once told me a saying about friends that I think may apply here. If you stand to close to the shit spreader you may get a little on ya'. Again just my opinion on the matter.

[Lambert_Loonie]

As odd as it might sound, I find myself having a new found respect for Ben in the aftermath of Milledgeville. By all the interviews I've seen, he's talked a lot about turning his life around, going back to church and spending much more tme with his family. I imagine any professional athlete says the same thing, but by press accounts, he really is living out what he's saying. As much as the suspension and shame he brought upon the Steelers franchise stunk, it was the best thing that ever happened to him on a personal level. From here on out, I see only positive for Ben Roethlisberger.

Time heals all wounds. Nobody talks about Brett Favre's drug addiction in the early 90s, Ray Lewis facing murder charges, Shawne Merriman testing positive for steroids, Tom Brady's skirtchasing, Bill Belichick and "Spygate," Santonio Holmes' many issues (which might be fresh in our minds but isn't in the mainstream media), Michael Vick's dogfighting ring, etc. I'd bet 4-5 years from now, nobody will even remember Milledgeville and Ben will be working on his 5th ring. :)

[SirHulka]

Only time will tell, and to be more exact, only the next couple of off-seasons will tell. That's when he (like so many other athletes) get into trouble. For his sake, I hope he HAS learned a lesson.

(And I don't think Lewis was actually accused of murder. But he DID plead guilty to obstructing the investigation, so one could reasonably conclude that he knew who did it.)

[O'Malley]

Apparantly the NFL conduct clause...and a little common sense.


Never hated Ben but he PISSED ME OFF by doing his best Bengal player impersonation. I have ALWAYS been able to say that the Steelers organization placed character very high. It was unsettling to have to eat crow there for a while.

But like everyone else...I believe that it doesnt matter where you were...it matters where you are. So if Ben is in a better place in his maturation process, than more power to him and that is how he should be treated.

Well put. On other blogs I have defended Ben but took a hit from the stand point that the class I always talked about was gone. How Steelers players stay out of trouble and give to the community. But when this news broke I felt that was taken away a little. I never hated Ben. But could not understand how he could put himself in a situation like this twice. He has done everything and more the league has asked and hopefully this will be added drive for Ben. Welcome back Ben light the whole league up this year!

[HometownGal]

Terry Bradshaw - are you listening?????

The only thing I feel Ben was guilty of was extremely POOR judgment and as I'm not perfect and have exercised poor judgment in my life at times over the years, I found it easy to forgive him - THIS TIME.

[GodfatherofSoul]

Doesn't matter at this point. Its my belief. I really don't want to argue it for the 3000th time. It's just my belief based on my education, experiences, and working with people.

Never claimed it as fact, because I can't prove it. Nor can the fact that everything was copacetic be proven. Anything any of us have, is a belief... Not a fact.

Ever been to a party with pro or college football players? They don't have to do the chasing. I've seen these situations go down (pun intended) lots of times. The only difference here is the girls took objection to not getting to ride around in Ben's limo afterwards or hang out in the Steelers press box. Remember, they also invited him to their sorority house. My guess is the sisters didn't like their little friend getting used, then ditched.

[vasteeler]

Ever been to a party with pro or college football players? They don't have to do the chasing. I've seen these situations go down (pun intended) lots of times. The only difference here is the girls took objection to not getting to ride around in Ben's limo afterwards or hang out in the Steelers press box. Remember, they also invited him to their sorority house. My guess is the sisters didn't like their little friend getting used, then ditched.

quit making so much sense:amen:

[SMR]

I was disappointed in Ben, but I have never stopped being a fan of him. From what I have read, this has changed him to be a better person. I have never understood the hatred toward Ben.

It was never HATRED but JEALOUSLY, my friend.

[SMR]

quit making so much sense:amen:

lol :thumbsup:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

As odd as it might sound, I find myself having a new found respect for Ben in the aftermath of Milledgeville. By all the interviews I've seen, he's talked a lot about turning his life around, going back to church and spending much more tme with his family. I imagine any professional athlete says the same thing, but by press accounts, he really is living out what he's saying. As much as the suspension and shame he brought upon the Steelers franchise stunk, it was the best thing that ever happened to him on a personal level. From here on out, I see only positive for Ben Roethlisberger.

Time heals all wounds. Nobody talks about Brett Favre's drug addiction in the early 90s, Ray Lewis facing murder charges, Shawne Merriman testing positive for steroids, Tom Brady's skirtchasing, Bill Belichick and "Spygate," Santonio Holmes' many issues (which might be fresh in our minds but isn't in the mainstream media), Michael Vick's dogfighting ring, etc. I'd bet 4-5 years from now, nobody will even remember Milledgeville and Ben will be working on his 5th ring. :)

Nice post. I think the fact that he never went to watch any of his sister Carlee's NCAA tournament games is a sign of how his priorities went astray. I also wonder what he would think if his sister ended up in a bathroom stall alone with an Oklahoma Football player after a few too many drinks???

As for time healing all, maybe for public opinion stuff like you noted. But for real victims time wont heal what happened.

I think if a non Cornhusker fan looks at the issues that former lineman Christian Peter had you can make a judgement........and conversely, a non-Steeler fan can look at Ben R and make similar judgements.

Ben, welcome back to the Steelers. I just wont be buying a #7 jersey for my wife or daughter any time soon. Rather they wore a #43.

[siss]

Yes he did go to his sisters events. I have proof too.
http://bigben7.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=-36&pos=27
oh look here he is again!
http://bigben7.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=28&pos=0%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3ECan%20you%20post%20and%20ask%20this%20person%20 that?%20Ask%20them%20how%20in%20the%20world%20I%20 have%20photos%20of%20Ben%20at%20two%20different%20 games%20(one%20just%20last%20year%20at%20her%20NCA A%20Championship%20game)%20if%20Ben%20NEVER%20atte nded%20his%20sister's%20games?
He has been to a few games for his sister. Im sure its very hard for him to go to games like that. If it were me, I would want the attention on my sister and not on me being there.

If I were I would go back and read what the DA said. Did you know there was no probable cause in this case? Thats the standard for making an arrest in this country. Ben never had that.
Did You know that the DA said he could see where this was going from the beginning?
Its all in his press conference. Before you condemn someone read up and educate yourself.

[HometownGal]

Fair enough, but based on her being under age in a bar makes me believe Ben was not forcing her into getting drunk, and based on her telling him her initials were DTF tells me she was looking for something more than just a drink. I don't know if she changed her mind that night or the next day or to that effect what caused her to change her mind, fear, friends, family, reputation, guilty conscience, fame or greed or a combination of these, but to me I don't believe it was rape or even forced sex, but that is my opinion.

Maybe she needs to be held accountable for those actions as well as her friends who "Supported" her. A friend once told me a saying about friends that I think may apply here. If you stand to close to the shit spreader you may get a little on ya'. Again just my opinion on the matter.

Bingo and couldn't have said it any better! :drink: :thumbsup:

[Lambert_Loonie]

I think if a non Cornhusker fan looks at the issues that former lineman Christian Peter had you can make a judgement........and conversely, a non-Steeler fan can look at Ben R and make similar judgements.

Well... then they're just jealous. :P

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yes he did go to his sisters events. I have proof too.
http://bigben7.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=-36&pos=27
oh look here he is again!
http://bigben7.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=28&pos=0%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3ECan%20you%20post%20and%20ask%20this%20person%20 that?%20Ask%20them%20how%20in%20the%20world%20I%20 have%20photos%20of%20Ben%20at%20two%20different%20 games%20(one%20just%20last%20year%20at%20her%20NCA A%20Championship%20game)%20if%20Ben%20NEVER%20atte nded%20his%20sister's%20games?
He has been to a few games for his sister. Im sure its very hard for him to go to games like that. If it were me, I would want the attention on my sister and not on me being there.

If I were I would go back and read what the DA said. Did you know there was no probable cause in this case? Thats the standard for making an arrest in this country. Ben never had that.
Did You know that the DA said he could see where this was going from the beginning?
Its all in his press conference. Before you condemn someone read up and educate yourself.

Great, he watched a regular season game of his sisters 2 seasons ago. I believe that Carlee herself said that Ben didnt make it to any of her games this season and its not like he had a big playoff run that he was on.

Here is what the DA said :
"Here the overall circumstances do not lead to a viable prosecution. If they did, I would be pursuing it vigorously," Bright said. "We do not prosecute morals. We prosecute crimes."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5078589

Thanks for the suggestions, but I am rather well educated on the topic. I suggest you look up the definition of "probable cause" before throwing it around like you just watched a weekend of Law and Order. Probable cause in a rape would be explained as "being horny". Charges were dropped because the DA didnt think he could win beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you want to turn a blind eye to immoral behaviour towards women, that is your decision. I like the guy as a player, but really hope he's hit rock bottom as a person and is gonna start living right.

[GodfatherofSoul]

Probable cause in a rape would be explained as "being horny". Charges were dropped because the DA didnt think he could win beyond a reasonable doubt.


I still don't think you've figured out "probable cause" yet. And, charges weren't "dropped" they were never brought in the first place. And, I almost forgot that she and her crowd were following Ben's crowd from bar to bar (and getting in illegally on multiple counts).

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

No, you are right that the term probable cause doesnt fit in the context with analyzing Bens intentions that night. And sorry if I used the term "dropped" like it was in the ESPN article..........why hang on semantics?

I just think its a sad point of view to think that because college students follow a sport celebrity around during an evening, that they should be thought of as a victim if they ended up in a bathroom while his entourage blocked access to the bathroom.

The guy made mistakes......bad mistakes. I hope he learns from them and those that were hurt by the mistakes can somehow forget. I still judge Ben as 2 people...The Athlete and the Person.

[siss]

DO NOT base ANYTHING on what you read on BSPN.
They did not show the entire press conference. So here the exact quote from the DA

Q: What about probable cause though?

A: I live in the world of ‘beyond a reasonable doubt.’ An honest answer: It’s debatable. If you want my candid feeling, looking at all the evidence here, we don’t even have probable cause. Probable cause is the standard to make an arrest, and we did not have probable cause. No arrest was made in this case, so there’s no warrant to dismiss. We didn’t even have probable cause in this case.

There is no victim in this case. Did Ben make some bad choices? Yes and he would probably be the first to admit that.

Oh and look at this little tid bit from the DA's press conference
Q: Is this case officially closed now? Or if more information surfaces will you re-open the investigation?

A: It’s closed. I’ve made my decision and that’s final. It’s not going to change. I’ll tell you this: We’re still waiting on some phone records, text messages. There’s nothing going to be enlightening there. I’ve got enough information. This decision was not difficult to reach. I knew pretty early on that this was the way this case was going, but I pride myself on keeping an open mind. I wanted to make sure that we made the right decision. That’s critical. But to answer your question, it’s closed. We’re still waiting on a few bits and pieces but it won’t change anything. It’s closed.
http://pit.scout.com/2/961691.html

[HometownGal]

Quick question here. Why the hell are we still discussing this? It's done and over with and continuing to debate the ifs, whys and becauses serves no purpose other than to lower ourselves to the level of the media who loves to kick a person when they are down. The only person who can change Ben's poor judgment and behavior is BEN and time will tell if he has really turned over a new leaf. Until he gives me a reason to dout his intentions, I'm going to believe in him. Time to move on.

[Craic]

Ever been to a party with pro or college football players? They don't have to do the chasing. I've seen these situations go down (pun intended) lots of times. The only difference here is the girls took objection to not getting to ride around in Ben's limo afterwards or hang out in the Steelers press box. Remember, they also invited him to their sorority house. My guess is the sisters didn't like their little friend getting used, then ditched.

So by your logic, we should always assume that in rape cases involving famous people, or at least professional athletes, its the woman's fault because she in fact is lying. Right? Cause that is exactly what you are saying.

Did they invite him? I don't know. Sure. One question however, was that before or after the "incident"? Because that makes all the difference. Sorry, I just can't blindly scream of his innocence because "he's my guy" and OF COURSE any chick who accuses him of anything bad is just a two-bit whore and just may even be not pretty enough to have been raped. Thus, she MUST have lied (oh wait, that was the argument about the first woman, until Ben announced that he DID in fact have sex with her).

In fact, I DO NOT KNOW... and neither does any of the other amateur sleuths on this board, or any other for that reason. What I KNOW and what I THINK are two VERY different issues, issues I have made very clear. Sadly, too many here think that what they THINK equates to KNOWING.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Quick question here. Why the hell are we still discussing this? It's done and over with and continuing to debate the ifs, whys and becauses serves no purpose other than to lower ourselves to the level of the media who loves to kick a person when they are down. The only person who can change Ben's poor judgment and behavior is BEN and time will tell if he has really turned over a new leaf. Until he gives me a reason to dout his intentions, I'm going to believe in him. Time to move on.

I'm with ya. I am done with this topic.

My only point is that I'm an objective fan, so if I can still hold Ray Lewis accountable for what he allegedly has done (conceal the murderers of 2 men) I can still hold Ben accountable for allegedly doing what he has done. Heck, I even think the bloody glove DID fit O.J. and he was just pretending it didnt fit. :chuckle:

[Texasteel]

Quick question here. Why the hell are we still discussing this? It's done and over with and continuing to debate the ifs, whys and becauses serves no purpose other than to lower ourselves to the level of the media who loves to kick a person when they are down. The only person who can change Ben's poor judgment and behavior is BEN and time will tell if he has really turned over a new leaf. Until he gives me a reason to dout his intentions, I'm going to believe in him. Time to move on.

Couldn't agree more. Everyone says they are tired of talking about it, but then bring it back up.

[Craic]

Fair enough, but based on her being under age in a bar makes me believe Ben was not forcing her into getting drunk, No one said Ben was FORCING her. Rather, he was keeping the flow of alcohol going. Fact is, he probably was, being the center of the crowd. And??


based on her telling him her initials were DTF tells me she was looking for something more than just a drink.

Sorry, sorority prank. Nothing more than that. She was asked, she said what it was. Does that mean it is an open invitation? So I guess anyone wearing this shirt to a bar...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGHvAK-kFvAfgSsxow1oRz4Z1Hz2mcFpQLo2nEZoM1KtPzV3o&t=1&usg=__4Vm14I0Fptw4KCTCzxHKNG1EvIY= (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.southwest.com.au/%7Eapples/lol/other/virgin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Words_to_live_by&usg=__Lk9A5hFWOGTTNwHpRK0y6f9rQ6Y=&h=600&w=800&sz=58&hl=en&start=0&sig2=PctFdV1YgNC3V9F0qjvALQ&zoom=1&tbnid=tnBMQQjIqqVZXM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=156&ei=cLWvTM28FpS4sAOVs4T_Aw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDo%2Bme%2BT%2Bshirt%2Bfemale%26um%3D1 %26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D893%26tbs%3Disch: 1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1227&vpy=209&dur=2497&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=141&ty=89&oei=cLWvTM28FpS4sAOVs4T_Aw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=80&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:0)

Is automatically unable to be raped, right? Cause after all, it means that "she was looking for something more than just a drink."


I don't know if she changed her mind that night or the next day or to that effect what caused her to change her mind, fear, friends, family, reputation, guilty conscience, fame or greed or a combination of these, but to me I don't believe it was rape or even forced sex, but that is my opinion.
The problem is, IF she changed her mind, EVEN WHILE SEX HAPPENED, and he didn't listen to her... it is now rape. But, why do you ASSUME she changed her mind?


Maybe she needs to be held accountable for those actions What actions are those? Inviting a guy to force himself on her for a joke amongst sorority sisters? For maybe changing her mind before or during sex?


A friend once told me a saying about friends that I think may apply here. If you stand to close to the shit spreader you may get a little on ya'. Gotta wonder why only 1 Steeler was with Ben that night... this might be it.
________________________


Now, that last comment was said tongue in cheek. But my point through all of this, is that so many hear ASSUME a position of COMPLETE innocence of Ben's actions and thoughts... and then look at the situation, and claim he is innocent. That is circular logic.

We ALL start from a position of not knowing. Then move to a position of reading 2nd and third hand about what happened... all of which is now being filtered through minds and mouths of those who want him convicted... or want him completely innocent. Then, while reading those allegations and witness reports, we all filter out what doesn't fit our preconceived ideas. Therefore, in NO way, shape, or form, unless there is ABSOLUTE proof of forced rape (camera, vaginal ripping, etc.) or complete innocence (again, camera, as in Bettis' case, or her own friends contradicting the rape itself) can ANYONE be certain of what the objective reality is. THEY CAN NOT EVEN BE CERTAIN. Because while he may think one thing... honestly and fully from the beginning, she may think something else, honestly and fully from the beginning. That is why DA's would rather have scientific evidence rather than eye witness testimonies. Because eye witness testimonies ALWAYS contradict, and it is easy to confuse people when they are already nervous on a witness stand.

[Craic]

Quick question here. Why the hell are we still discussing this? It's done and over with and continuing to debate the ifs, whys and becauses serves no purpose other than to lower ourselves to the level of the media who loves to kick a person when they are down. The only person who can change Ben's poor judgment and behavior is BEN and time will tell if he has really turned over a new leaf. Until he gives me a reason to dout his intentions, I'm going to believe in him. Time to move on.

I agree, and said basically the same. It wasn't worth debating again.


Doesn't matter at this point. Its my belief. I really don't want to argue it for the 3000th time. It's just my belief based on my education, experiences, and working with people.

Never claimed it as fact, because I can't prove it. Nor can the fact that everything was copacetic be proven. Anything any of us have, is a belief... Not a fact.

But, when statements like these are made


Ever been to a party with pro or college football players? They don't have to do the chasing. I've seen these situations go down (pun intended) lots of times. The only difference here is the girls took objection to not getting to ride around in Ben's limo afterwards or hang out in the Steelers press box. Remember, they also invited him to their sorority house. My guess is the sisters didn't like their little friend getting used, then ditched. Which pretty much says no woman is able to be raped by a pro. Rather, she was just trying to get back at him...

I tend to want to respond.

[Count Steeler]

Quick question here. Why the hell are we still discussing this? It's done and over with and continuing to debate the ifs, whys and becauses serves no purpose other than to lower ourselves to the level of the media who loves to kick a person when they are down. The only person who can change Ben's poor judgment and behavior is BEN and time will tell if he has really turned over a new leaf. Until he gives me a reason to dout his intentions, I'm going to believe in him. Time to move on.

Here, here Gal. Time to move on. Ben has served his time, now let us watch him play like the winner that he is.

[Butch]

No one said Ben was FORCING her. Rather, he was keeping the flow of alcohol going. Fact is, he probably was, being the center of the crowd. And?? She drank those drinks of her own free will and her friends didn't stop her. I will say this is a good example of Ben's poor judgment. Still doesn't mean he raped her.


Sorry, sorority prank. Nothing more than that.Are you sure? I have not heard or read that.


She was asked, she said what it was.Not the way I read it. She came to him told him her initials and asked him if he knew what it meant, when he said he did not she explained it.


Does that mean it is an open invitation?Maybe. It does seem to suggest that she was sending a message. Does it mean that she was not a willing participant?


So I guess anyone wearing this shirt to a bar...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGHvAK-kFvAfgSsxow1oRz4Z1Hz2mcFpQLo2nEZoM1KtPzV3o&t=1&usg=__4Vm14I0Fptw4KCTCzxHKNG1EvIY= (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.southwest.com.au/%7Eapples/lol/other/virgin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Words_to_live_by&usg=__Lk9A5hFWOGTTNwHpRK0y6f9rQ6Y=&h=600&w=800&sz=58&hl=en&start=0&sig2=PctFdV1YgNC3V9F0qjvALQ&zoom=1&tbnid=tnBMQQjIqqVZXM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=156&ei=cLWvTM28FpS4sAOVs4T_Aw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDo%2Bme%2BT%2Bshirt%2Bfemale%26um%3D1 %26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D893%26tbs%3Disch: 1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1227&vpy=209&dur=2497&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=141&ty=89&oei=cLWvTM28FpS4sAOVs4T_Aw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=80&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:0)

Is automatically unable to be raped, right?
Woahhh who was raped??? It wasn't proven or was Ben even charged, guess this again is your opinion. If someone is wearing that shirt to a bar does it mean that if they have sex it is rape? Does it give them the right to change their minds after the sex and that public opinion should be automatically on their side?


The problem is, IF she changed her mind, EVEN WHILE SEX HAPPENED, and he didn't listen to her... it is now rape. But, why do you ASSUME she changed her mind? The problem is if she changed her mind after the sex, or was persuaded by those guilty feelings that I described after the sex, then it wasn't rape, but was used as a way to persuade her to take actions to clear her conscience. Just because she is not famous or because she is a woman does not make her innocent no matter what her past experiences or outward appearances suggest.


What actions are those? Inviting a guy to force himself on her for a joke amongst sorority sisters? For maybe changing her mind before or during sex? Was it forced??? If it was wouldn't that be rape??? Is this fact or an assumption??? Again what about changing her mind after the fact??? If she claims rape when it was not isn't that just as appauling???


so many hear ASSUME a position of COMPLETE innocence of Ben's actions and thoughtsAnd then there are those who ASSUME that their ASS UMPTIONS are more better, but the one thing we can agree on is that neither of us really knows what happened or how it happened. As you say we get bits and pieces and from there we base our opinions. I just choose to see it differently than you. No biggie. I will agree to disagree.

[Craic]

She drank those drinks of her own free will and her friends didn't stop her. I will say this is a good example of Ben's poor judgment. Still doesn't mean he raped her. You're right, it doesn't. She also drank of her own free will as you said. And I never did say it meant he raped her. I was responding to your original statement about the issue. He DID buy her alcohol, then entered into some kind of sexual act with her.

There is now an ongoing discussion whether a woman who actually says yes while under the influence is STILL considered raped, because she was "incapacitated". Not drunk, but simply not able to make a rational decision. So regardless of who bought drinks for whom, who gave them to her, or her age when she drank them, the fact that she HAD drank alcohol brings into question whether even her "yes" meant yes in a legal sense of giving permission. For that, you would have to check Georgia law.

It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with this. It simply is, and is one more factor in Ben R.'s decision making process, and one more factor in the legitimacy of bringing allegations of rape.

Are you sure? I have not heard or read that. Not the way I read it. She came to him told him her initials and asked him if he knew what it meant, when he said he did not she explained it.

This is according to the testimony

Another sorority sister, Victoria Garofalo, recalled that the alleged victim was wearing a name tag with the initials “DTF.” The tag–which the woman had received at a birthday party earlier that evening–was the subject of an inside joke between the students. When Roethlisberger asked about the initials, “Garofalo explained that ‘DTF’ stood for ‘down to ****’ and that it referred to a joke between” the women. “I’m not down to ****, but I like to **** girls,” Roethlisberger replied, according to a police report.
Thus, it was an inside joke among friends, it WASN'T the alleged victim who said it, and it was Ben who first asked the question. I simply cannot understand how anyone would assume that equates to "sending a message". If she was doing that, wouldn't she rather be the one to tell Ben? Moreover, why do it in a name tag? Why not just whisper it in his ear? Why not just troll? Heck... Your a twenty year old woman. Just head over to the men's dorm. I am sure it'd be taken care of. Thus, I simply cannot accept ...


Maybe. It does seem to suggest that she was sending a message.
for all the reasons stated above.


Does it mean that she was not a willing participant? No, it doesn't. But, you were the one arguing that "DTF" DID mean that she was signaling in some way that she WOULD HAVE been a willing participant. It doesn't mean that either.


Woahhh who was raped??? It wasn't proven or was Ben even charged Please look at context. I am simply asking if someone wearing that shirt is able to be raped as the shirt itself gives prior approval. That is clear by the context I wrote it in. I was not making any conclusions about the actual happenings.. which again, should be quite clear.
guess this again is your opinion. Nope. Having sex when someone says no before or during, is rape. Again, please look at context. I did not say that this DID happen, I was simply asking if wearing the shirt would give prior approval and this, impossible to be raped.


Does it give them the right to change their minds after the sex and that public opinion should be automatically on their side?
Sorry, that is not my question. You have argued that by wearing DTF, she had publically broadcasted that she was ready to have sex and thus, had basically given prior consent. I am now asking you if you actually believe what you argued?


The problem is if she changed her mind after the sex, or was persuaded by those guilty feelings that I described after the sex, then it wasn't rape, but was used as a way to persuade her to take actions to clear her conscience. Just because she is not famous or because she is a woman does not make her innocent no matter what her past experiences or outward appearances suggest.
Believe it or not, I completely agree with you. Furthermore, I do think there was quite a bit of this involved. However, I think there is just as much guilt on Ben's shoulders.

I've said this before. I have sat in a room counseling a couple. We are just talking about someone asking someone else to get the dog food at the store... and you would think they were living in two completely freaking different worlds concerning the conversation, what the others intent was, and what the "reality" was. Ben had his view of reality, she had hers, and the "truth" is that there is no actual truth because in this case, "truth" is purely based on intent and reaction.

W
as it forced??? If it was wouldn't that be rape??? Is this fact or an assumption??? Again what about changing her mind after the fact??? If she claims rape when it was not isn't that just as appauling??? Yes. I have no problem with that argument. I am willing to believe that this very well may be the case, as I do not and cannot know what actually happened. But my question to you is, are you willing to accept the opposite, because you also cannot, and do not know what happened?

And then there are those who ASSUME that their ASS UMPTIONS are more better, but the one thing we can agree on is that neither of us really knows what happened or how it happened. As you say we get bits and pieces and from there we base our opinions. I just choose to see it differently than you. No biggie. I will agree to disagree.
First, um, we were being civil in this discussion. If that low-brow shot was taken at me on purpose, then we are finished discussing this because I have no desire to be in such a conversation. If, on the other hand, you accidently hit the space bar at just the right time. Well, timing is everything. When the other site blew up and porn was spammed everywhere... I opened up a thread, saw a HORRID picture of two women, a tube, water, and a bum in the air.... and right at that moment, my WIFE walked into the room! So I understand bad timing. Please let me know which it was.

However, understand, the very reason I am arguing against most people here, is because I DONT have assumptions about this. I don't assume he is innocent. I DOnt assume he is guilty. I don't assume he did anything right or wrong, or that she did. I have my own thoughts about what happened based on my experience, but completely understand that it is just that, my own thoughts. I do however, think that they strike closer to the reality, as the things Ben has said, what has come out about the first women, the situation here, etc. all seem to mesh very well with my reconstruction of the events. But I in no way make the leap to believe that it DOES represent reality. In short... my only assumption, is that it would be foolish to assume anything, including innocence or guilt of either party.

[Butch]

Nah..it was neither simply my lame attempt at trying to inject some humor, I sincerely apologise to you for that.

[Craic]

Nah..it was neither simply my lame attempt at trying to inject some humor, I sincerely apologise to you for that.

Hey... I've learned myself, humor doesn't always come across on the screen like its intended. Thank you for clarifying and no problems at all!

--NOTE: Butch also sent me a PM to make sure I saw this... VERY CLASSY MOVE --unnecessary; and even more classy because it was unnecessary.
http://emoticons.msn-beta.com/big/11.gif

Your a good man. I don't care what LLT says about you! :chuckle:

[HometownGal]

Hey... I've learned myself, humor doesn't always come across on the screen like its intended. Thank you for clarifying and no problems at all!

--NOTE: Butch also sent me a PM to make sure I saw this... VERY CLASSY MOVE --unnecessary; and even more classy because it was unnecessary.
http://emoticons.msn-beta.com/big/11.gif

Your a good man. I don't care what LLT says about you! :chuckle:

Good minds think alike, Father. I just told Butch last week during a PM exchange that both he and Sal are absolute pleasures to have around here. Hopefully in the coming months, we can attract more folks just like them. :drink: :thumbsup:

[GodfatherofSoul]

So by your logic, we should always assume that in rape cases involving famous people, or at least professional athletes, its the woman's fault because she in fact is lying. Right? Cause that is exactly what you are saying.


No, just like with any other accusation, you should factor in all the evidence. If you don't have any evidence, then you should STFU. There's no evidence of a rape and the "victim" herself even contradicts her own story. The prosecutor never brought charges or even *arrested* him for a reason.