Tomlin-Extension

[Hawkman]

.......through 2024. Some around here will be pissed. I’m not one of them, because, you know, we can never have a .500 season, unless there is a tie.

[Steeler-in-west]

Poor playoff record since the last super bowl appearance, and that with a vast amount of talent

has to improve on that. Hopefully an improved running game, Ben’s properly healed arm and a new OC will help.

[DesertSteel]

The 17-game season is now known as "The Tomlin Rule."

[tube517]

Twitter and every Steeler forum will explode.

House will never get a reboot now.

[teegre]

Twitter and every Steeler forum will explode.

House will never get a reboot now.

A few weeks back on Twitter, people were posting pictures of actors in different roles (talking about the actor's range and such). Someone posted a picture of Omar Epps from House, in Juice, one from Higher Learning... and a picture of Mike Tomlin. :lol:

The comments were amaaaazing!!!

[fansince'76]

Twitter and every Steeler forum will explode.

:hippo::smoker::poker::bond:


:chuckle:

[Disco1981]

NO!WHY! Based on what!

Rooney is a fool...He had the Rooney Rule named after him ( a great thing ) Now he's just trying to be politically correct... Popcorn has underachieved for YEARS!

And...For all the shit Tomlin has talked about Blacks not getting enough opportunities in the NFL...

TOMLIN HAS NEVER HIRED A BLACK OC OR DC DURING HIS ENTIRE TENURE!!!!!!!!!!!

[st33lersguy]

Well, the standard of success is (now) 9 wins so no

[Shoes]

NO!WHY! Based on what!

Rooney is a fool...He had the Rooney Rule named after him ( a great thing ) Now he's just trying to be politically correct... Popcorn has underachieved for YEARS!

And...For all the shit Tomlin has talked about Blacks not getting enough opportunities in the NFL...

TOMLIN HAS NEVER HIRED A BLACK OC OR DC DURING HIS ENTIRE TENURE!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think Tomlin had much say in the Butler, Haley, Fich or Canada hires. Butler was promised the DC position for years, Rooney wanted Haley, Ben wanted Fich and Canada was hired as the QB coach via Rooney and probably OC.

[fansince'76]

Rooney is a fool...He had the Rooney Rule named after him ( a great thing ) Now he's just trying to be politically correct...

:rolleyes:

That was DAN Rooney, not Art II.

[Mojouw]

I don't think Tomlin had much say in the Butler, Haley, Fich or Canada hires. Butler was promised the DC position for years, Rooney wanted Haley, Ben wanted Fich and Canada was hired as the QB coach via Rooney and probably OC.
Shhh!!! Don't trouble him with details.

We could always list the long and extensive list of African-American and minority position coaches, coaching interns, and training staff that have been employed during the Tomlin/Colbert tenure. But why worry about that...it spoils a good borderline incoherent rant!

"Tomlin" and "black" are clearly trigger words for a great number of Steelers fans!

[Hawkman]

NO!WHY! Based on what!

Rooney is a fool...He had the Rooney Rule named after him ( a great thing ) Now he's just trying to be politically correct... Popcorn has underachieved for YEARS!

And...For all the shit Tomlin has talked about Blacks not getting enough opportunities in the NFL...

TOMLIN HAS NEVER HIRED A BLACK OC OR DC DURING HIS ENTIRE TENURE!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW! 23 posts and you’re calling ANY Rooney a fool.........Mirrors are everywhere!

[86WARD]

Twitter and every Steeler forum will explode.

House will never get a reboot now.

Lol. You can hear the heads exploding across the country...

This will be the year he goes 8-9...lol.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Shhh!!! Don't trouble him with details.

We could always list the long and extensive list of African-American and minority position coaches, coaching interns, and training staff that have been employed during the Tomlin/Colbert tenure. But why worry about that...it spoils a good borderline incoherent rant!

"Tomlin" and "black" are clearly trigger words for a great number of Steelers fans!

Seems like this is the place for "borderline incoherent rants".

Normally followed by posts of beavers around 15 posts later. :coffee: I'll be waiting here drinking my coffee, black, until that happens.

[86WARD]

Wait until he passes Cowher in wins...lol. He’s not far behind...probably in less games too...

[Steel Peon]

My early predictions for the next 3 years:

45 - Failed 4th down attempts
153 - Unused time-outs
51 - Unsuccessful coach challenges
12 - Successful field-goals when trailing by 21 points or more
15 - Worn pairs of sunglasses with no direct sunlight
0 - Times the opposing team will be drawn off-sides
5 - Unsuccessful trick plays
0 - Successful trick plays
33 - Half-times while trailing in points

[86WARD]

What current coaches are better than Tomlin? No one ever comes up with good names other than Belichick.

[DesertSteel]

What current coaches are better than Tomlin? No one ever comes up with good names other than Belichick.
I think Tomlin could have got that Patriots team to 8-8 last year!

- - - Updated - - -


My early predictions for the next 3 years:

45 - Failed 4th down attempts
153 - Unused time-outs
51 - Unsuccessful coach challenges
12 - Successful field-goals when trailing by 21 points or more
15 - Worn pairs of sunglasses with no direct sunlight
0 - Times the opposing team will be drawn off-sides
5 - Unsuccessful trick plays
0 - Successful trick plays
33 - Half-times while trailing in points
*yawn

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

What current coaches are better than Tomlin? No one ever comes up with good names other than Belichick.

Yes, always good to hear the suggested replacements for Tomlin, if his contract was not extended. Somebody going to bring up Lincoln Riley to start......who else?

[st33lersguy]

Real simple, if you like late season collapses and playoff losses to decisively inferior teams, you'll love this extension, if you desire to see the team win a Super Bowl anytime soon, you won't like it at all.

I'll be waiting for the next multi-year extension to occur in the 2024 offseason with the team fresh off a home wildcard playoff loss to a Raiders starting Andy Dalton or Mitchell Trubisky in a playoff game. This will be the Raiders first playoff win in 21 years, and at this point Tomlin will be 3-8 in the playoffs in the last 13 years, or something not so far off from this

[Fire Goodell]

Poor playoff record since the last super bowl appearance, and that with a vast amount of talent

has to improve on that. Hopefully an improved running game, Ben’s properly healed arm and a new OC will help.

Cowher failed in the playoffs like it was his job to, until he got Ben. But he's somehow considered a 'great' coach.

[DesertSteel]

Yes, always good to hear the suggested replacements for Tomlin, if his contract was not extended. Somebody going to bring up Lincoln Riley to start......who else?
I like Barry Switzer. Super Bowl winning coach.

- - - Updated - - -


Real simple, if you like late season collapses and playoff losses to decisively inferior teams, you'll love this extension, if you desire to see the team win a Super Bowl anytime soon, you won't like it at all.

I'll be waiting for the next multi-year extension to occur in the 2024 offseason with the team fresh off a home wildcard playoff loss to a Raiders starting Andy Dalton or Mitchell Trubisky in a playoff game. This will be the Raiders first playoff win in 21 years, and at this point Tomlin will be 3-8 in the playoffs in the last 13 years, or something not so far off from this
If you're looking for coaching changes as the fix, you picked the wrong team to follow.

[st33lersguy]

Cowher failed in the playoffs like it was his job to, until he got Ben. But he's somehow considered a 'great' coach.

And Tomlin's failed in the playoffs with Ben. I always love how Tomlin defenders main defense only appears to be bringing up other coaches

[DesertSteel]

And Tomlin's failed in the playoffs with Ben. I always love how Tomlin defenders main defense only appears to be bringing up other coaches
Yeah with old Ben. They both won with young Ben.

[teegre]

TOMLIN HAS NEVER HIRED ANY OC OR DC DURING HIS ENTIRE TENURE!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited for accuracy

[Steeler-in-west]

Cowher failed in the playoffs like it was his job to, until he got Ben. But he's somehow considered a 'great' coach.

he almost got there with no 14. I won’t fault cowher for that fiasco. Steelers had that SB in the bag. A good coach should be successful with a great QB. Belichick didn’t get anywhere without Brady either, he’s yet to prove he can win without him. But that’s why the last 8 years or so have been so frustrating, talking playoffs, we’ve got virtually nothing to show for a big part of Ben’s Postseason career. Tomlin imho has underachieved. Let’s see if a running game and Ben’s rehabbed arm can get anywhere this season

[Hawkman]

he almost got there with no 14. I won’t fault cowher for that fiasco. Steelers had that SB in the bag. A good coach should be successful with a great QB. Belichick didn’t get anywhere without Brady either, he’s yet to prove he can win without him. But that’s why the last 8 years or so have been so frustrating, talking playoffs, we’ve got virtually nothing to show for a big part of Ben’s Postseason career. Tomlin imho has underachieved. Let’s see if a running game and Ben’s rehabbed arm can get anywhere this season

So, pick a different coach and tell me how he would change things to be a........achiever!!! Please!

Almost...Cowher almost got there with a number of QBs...He got to the SB twice and won once. Tomlin has gotten there twice and won once...

[Steeler-in-west]

So, pick a different coach and tell me how he would change things to be a........achiever!!! Please!

Almost...Cowher almost got there with a number of QBs...He got to the SB twice and won once. Tomlin has gotten there twice and won once...

I don’t know who’s out there. But I do know a popular coach is not always the best coach. Bradshaw didn’t like Noll but they had a lot of success. Noll was a master of detail and was a good teacher, he wasn’t considered ‘a players coach’. Belichick is probably closer to that mold, I don’t think he’s been a popular guy among his players but they had success. I want Tomlin to succeed, if I was a player I’d probably like playing for tomlin too, but the lack of any postseason success with the talent and high expectations the Steelers have had for about ten years is frustrating, can’t help but put the blame on the coaching staff

[teegre]

Cowher’s philosophy was that you win with a stifling defense, a good running game, and a QB who didn’t make mistakes. Alas, in Super Bowl XXX, the last part did the Steelers in.

I think it’s a rock solid ideology for the 90s / early 00s. Instead of paying a franchise QB, you use that same amount of money to keep three extra defenders. Imagine that 92-95 defense withOUT having Lake, Lloyd, and Woodson.

Cowher won with Ben, when Ben was on his rookie contract (which is essentially what Cowher was doing with his QBs in the 90s). It would have been interesting to see if Cowher would have kept Ben after 2008. Really.

Anyway... I liked Cowher’s philosophy. I’m not sure it would work today... although it’s how most of the recent championships have been won. Case in point: The Legion of Boom won when Russell Wilson was on his rookie contract... but, it was dismantled once Wilson got paid.

[Mojouw]

Cowher’s philosophy was that you win with a stifling defense, a good running game, and a QB who didn’t make mistakes. Alas, in Super Bowl XXX, the last part did the Steelers in.

I think it’s a rock solid ideology for the 90s / early 00s. Instead of paying a franchise QB, you use that same amount of money to keep three extra defenders. Imagine that 92-95 defense withOUT having Lake, Lloyd, and Woodson.

Cowher won with Ben, when Ben was on his rookie contract (which is essentially what Cowher was doing with his QBs in the 90s). It would have been interesting to see if Cowher would have kept Ben after 2008. Really.

Anyway... I liked Cowher’s philosophy. I’m not sure it would work today... although it’s how most of the recent championships have been won. Case in point: The Legion of Boom won when Russell Wilson was on his rookie contract... but, it was dismantled once Wilson got paid.

Different eras. It gets hard to compare.

The Niners and Chiefs SB was as close as we will see to a Cowher style team take on a pass wacky offense from this era. And they couldn’t get it done.

On the other hand, the Bucs pass rush just literally overwhelmed the Chiefs. But is that philosophy or the fact that the Chiefs were just about to start you and I at OT?

On the whole “Tomlin underachieving” rants - based on what standard? Elite QBs on good teams? Okay. Very few of those guys have more than 2 SB appearances. Some have zero. Some have no SB wins.

An artificial benchmark has been created in the minds of many that the 2008-18 Steelers were “due” X number of SB appearances and Y number of wins. Literally the ENTIRE history of the NFL says otherwise.

By the logic employed here, Tony Dungy was not a good coach. Nor is Sean Payton. Andy Reid is borderline. Parcels is okay. Carroll is mediocre. And the list goes on.

When you have created a standard of evaluation that everyone aside from Noll, Walsh, Lombardi, and Bellicheck fall short of...you may need to recalibrate.

Finally, we can take the “sports hot take” headline about who/what Tomlin is as a coach OR we can listen to those that played for him and coached with him. Those narratives paint TOTALLY different pictures.

T, I realize this wasn’t what you were saying but I am far too lazy to break this into multiple posts.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yeah with old Ben. They both won with young Ben.

No lies told.

Its kind of how Brett Favre should have won more than 1, but then he was old Favre and having poor performances in the playoffs and losing to seemingly inferior teams.

[Dissolv]

Tomlin turned in his best coaching job of all time just two years ago, and managed to get a deeply flawed team to go 11-0 and into the playoffs. There is no viable candidate available that is likely to exceed the performance we expect out of him in these next few years. Since the Steelers value consistency......on what world is it smart NOT to extend him?

[W&M_Steeler]

On the whole “Tomlin underachieving” rants - based on what standard? Elite QBs on good teams? Okay. Very few of those guys have more than 2 SB appearances. Some have zero. Some have no SB wins.

An artificial benchmark has been created in the minds of many that the 2008-18 Steelers were “due” X number of SB appearances and Y number of wins. Literally the ENTIRE history of the NFL says otherwise.


I think the "Tomlin has underachieved" sentiment comes not only from having Ben, but from having an overall stellar offense for half a decade yet essentially doing nothing with it. People expected more from the "Killer B" era, even with its accompanying mediocre (by Steelers standards) defense. Too many late season collapses, too many inexplicable losses to outright terrible teams (e.g. the Mike Glennon Bucs and the Mike Glennon Bears), too many playoff flame-outs. Some of it was terrible luck with injuries at inopportune times (how can a team be so unlucky as to lose its starting running back the game before the playoffs three playoffs in a row?!), some of it was been poor defensive drafting mid-decade, but some of it was on coaching. I'm a Tomlin homer, but even I thought that the 2018 collapse should have been the end of the line for him. I think that he has grown complacent, and I am not expecting much from the next few years. Tomlin has developed into a slightly better version of Jeff Fisher / Marvin Lewis- good coaches that hang around forever because they're good, but they no longer have the tools necessary to make the step to great.

[Mojouw]

I think the "Tomlin has underachieved" sentiment comes not only from having Ben, but from having an overall stellar offense for half a decade yet essentially doing nothing with it. People expected more from the "Killer B" era, even with its accompanying mediocre (by Steelers standards) defense. Too many late season collapses, too many inexplicable losses to outright terrible teams (e.g. the Mike Glennon Bucs and the Mike Glennon Bears), too many playoff flame-outs. Some of it was terrible luck with injuries at inopportune times (how can a team be so unlucky as to lose its starting running back the game before the playoffs three playoffs in a row?!), some of it was been poor defensive drafting mid-decade, but some of it was on coaching. I'm a Tomlin homer, but even I thought that the 2018 collapse should have been the end of the line for him. I think that he has grown complacent, and I am not expecting much from the next few years. Tomlin has developed into a slightly better version of Jeff Fisher / Marvin Lewis- good coaches that hang around forever because they're good, but they no longer have the tools necessary to make the step to great.

Again...Tomlin only falls short of a standard that essentially no one meets. That leads to two possible conclusion: Tomlin is an underachiever OR that the standard is not a viable metric.

Is Sean Payton an underachieving coach? Pete Carroll? Kyle Shannahan? Tony Dungy? Andy Reid? Either of the Harbaughs? Because if we apply the same standard of evaluation that is being used to advance the Tomlin=underachiever, then all those guys fall short as well.

[W&M_Steeler]

Again...Tomlin only falls short of a standard that essentially no one meets. That leads to two possible conclusion: Tomlin is an underachiever OR that the standard is not a viable metric.

Is Sean Payton an underachieving coach? Pete Carroll? Kyle Shannahan? Tony Dungy? Andy Reid? Either of the Harbaughs? Because if we apply the same standard of evaluation that is being used to advance the Tomlin=underachiever, then all those guys fall short as well.

I don't understand the argument you're trying to make. Are you saying that you don't believe there is such a thing as an "underachieving" coach, or are you saying that Tomlin accomplished as much in the 2014-18 seasons as any good coach could have reasonably been expected to accomplish and that it would have taken an all-time great coach to do more with those teams?

I also think that you're making a strawman argument to some extent. I don't think Tomlin's failure to win multiple Super Bowls from 2014-18 (or even a single Super Bowl in that span) makes him an underachiever, because there's a significant luck factor involved in winning it all. But I do understand how someone can look at the teams the Steelers had from 2014-18 and think that they should have accomplished more than what they did. Do you disagree with that second proposition? Do you think that the 2014-18 Steelers did as well as they could have possibly done without an all-time great head coach?

My argument isn't so much that any of the guys you listed would have definitely done better with the Steelers teams Tomlin had than Tomlin did during this span (particularly 2014-18)- I think that some of them would have, but it's too much of a counterfactual to be able to pin down for certain. But when compared with Cowher's 6 AFCC appearances in 12 seasons (1994-2005), Tomlin's 1 appearance in 9 seasons (2011-2020), or even 3 in 13 years, doesn't look very remarkable. I guess you can argue that Cowher had better talent to work with, but that's a tough argument to make IMO. Is it unfair to compare Tomlin to Cowher? I don't think it's unreasonable to be disappointed with the Steelers' results from 2014-18 and pin some of the blame for the disappointment on Cowher.

I think all coaches (except perhaps Belichick) eventually grow stale. Even Cowher lost the desire after winning his Super Bowl- then the Steelers brought in an unheralded, hungry young coach with new ideas who brought a spark to the team, resulting in two Super Bowls in 5 years with one victory. I don't think the Steelers win another Super Bowl until something like that happens. Tomlin looks firmly on the Fisher / Lewis path at this point, and I have no expectation that he'll ever win another Super Bowl. I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

[DesertSteel]

Tomlin falls short of Noll but has had every bit the career that Cowher had. So if Noll is the standard, then Tomlin has failed. But so have 99.7% of all coaches ever. By the way, how many Super Bowl wins do the hot, sexy coaches like Shanahan and McVay have combined??

[86WARD]

Again...Tomlin only falls short of a standard that essentially no one meets. That leads to two possible conclusion: Tomlin is an underachiever OR that the standard is not a viable metric.

Is Sean Payton an underachieving coach? Pete Carroll? Kyle Shannahan? Tony Dungy? Andy Reid? Either of the Harbaughs? Because if we apply the same standard of evaluation that is being used to advance the Tomlin=underachiever, then all those guys fall short as well.

I guess this is why no one ever names a coach “better than Tomlin” that doesn’t have Belichick in his name?

[W&M_Steeler]

I guess this is why no one ever names a coach “better than Tomlin” that doesn’t have Belichick in his name?

How many of you had ever heard of Tomlin before he was hired? Are you seriously saying there's no one in the world better than Tomlin than Belichick? I know that I am an infrequent poster here and wandering into long standing arguments that various factions here have been waging against each other for years, but that seems like a real stretch of an argument to me.

[Mojouw]

I don't understand the argument you're trying to make. Are you saying that you don't believe there is such a thing as an "underachieving" coach, or are you saying that Tomlin accomplished as much in the 2014-18 seasons as any good coach could have reasonably been expected to accomplish and that it would have taken an all-time great coach to do more with those teams?

I also think that you're making a strawman argument to some extent. I don't think Tomlin's failure to win multiple Super Bowls from 2014-18 (or even a single Super Bowl in that span) makes him an underachiever, because there's a significant luck factor involved in winning it all. But I do understand how someone can look at the teams the Steelers had from 2014-18 and think that they should have accomplished more than what they did. Do you disagree with that second proposition? Do you think that the 2014-18 Steelers did as well as they could have possibly done without an all-time great head coach?

My argument isn't so much that any of the guys you listed would have definitely done better with the Steelers teams Tomlin had than Tomlin did during this span (particularly 2014-18)- I think that some of them would have, but it's too much of a counterfactual to be able to pin down for certain. But when compared with Cowher's 6 AFCC appearances in 12 seasons (1994-2005), Tomlin's 1 appearance in 9 seasons (2011-2020), or even 3 in 13 years, doesn't look very remarkable. I guess you can argue that Cowher had better talent to work with, but that's a tough argument to make IMO. Is it unfair to compare Tomlin to Cowher? I don't think it's unreasonable to be disappointed with the Steelers' results from 2014-18 and pin some of the blame for the disappointment on Cowher.

I think all coaches (except perhaps Belichick) eventually grow stale. Even Cowher lost the desire after winning his Super Bowl- then the Steelers brought in an unheralded, hungry young coach with new ideas who brought a spark to the team, resulting in two Super Bowls in 5 years with one victory. I don't think the Steelers win another Super Bowl until something like that happens. Tomlin looks firmly on the Fisher / Lewis path at this point, and I have no expectation that he'll ever win another Super Bowl. I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

I don't know how to make it more clear.

The argument against Tomlin seems to be that he has not appeared in and/or won enough SB with a talented roster and a HOF QB.

So...take a look around the league in the last 20 years. Plenty of coaches with long tenures with franchises with talented rosters and high-end QBs. Here is the history of the league: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_head_coaches#Coaches_with_multi ple_Super_Bowl_appearances

If we assume something like 3-4 appearances and some amount of wins would have been acceptable under the "core" of the Ben-Tomlin-Colbert era...well that is a feat that ONLY Belichick has done in the recent era with the same team. And all prior 3+ SB appearances with the same team were largely done pre-salary cap.

So if we want to say that the anything less than 3+ SB appearances is an "underachievement" or a "failure" by Tomlin helmed teams...well then we are creating a standard (3+ SB appearances with the same franchise all in the salary cap era) that only ONE other head coach has met in the history of the NFL. To me, that makes me think that the expectations might need dialed back a bit.

If you look at other successful coaches around the NFL (define it however you want) - you will find basically the same struggles as are blamed on Tomlin. Winning in the NFL playoffs might be one of the hardest things to do in all of professional sports. Very few are fortunate enough to do it all that often.

Plus, I have long rejected the "blame coaches" narrative as a total solution to whatever problems a team might have. It appears to absolve the players of all/most of the blame and turns them into video game characters moved about by coaches. Everyone LOVES to freak out about that Jags playoff game. It wasn't coaches that were lobbing INTS into the teeth of the Jags defense. That was said HOF QB who Tomlin has "wasted"...

[W&M_Steeler]

I don't know how to make it more clear.

The argument against Tomlin seems to be that he has not appeared in and/or won enough SB with a talented roster and a HOF QB.

So...take a look around the league in the last 20 years. Plenty of coaches with long tenures with franchises with talented rosters and high-end QBs. Here is the history of the league: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_head_coaches#Coaches_with_multi ple_Super_Bowl_appearances

If we assume something like 3-4 appearances and some amount of wins would have been acceptable under the "core" of the Ben-Tomlin-Colbert era...well that is a feat that ONLY Belichick has done in the recent era with the same team. And all prior 3+ SB appearances with the same team were largely done pre-salary cap.

So if we want to say that the anything less than 3+ SB appearances is an "underachievement" or a "failure" by Tomlin helmed teams...well then we are creating a standard (3+ SB appearances with the same franchise all in the salary cap era) that only ONE other head coach has met in the history of the NFL. To me, that makes me think that the expectations might need dialed back a bit.

If you look at other successful coaches around the NFL (define it however you want) - you will find basically the same struggles as are blamed on Tomlin. Winning in the NFL playoffs might be one of the hardest things to do in all of professional sports. Very few are fortunate enough to do it all that often.

Plus, I have long rejected the "blame coaches" narrative as a total solution to whatever problems a team might have. It appears to absolve the players of all/most of the blame and turns them into video game characters moved about by coaches. Everyone LOVES to freak out about that Jags playoff game. It wasn't coaches that were lobbing INTS into the teeth of the Jags defense. That was said HOF QB who Tomlin has "wasted"...

Thank you for clarifying. It seems you disagree with my second proposition and think that Tomlin had as much success with this team as could have been reasonably expected and that it would have taken an all time great to do much better. I think your analysis is interesting and informative, but I still think it's addressing a strawman to some extent. Does Tomlin still look as good relative to peers when we compare number of conference championship game appearances instead of Super Bowl appearances? How about when we compare Divisional Round appearances? Is 5 divisional round appearances in 14 years as good as could have reasonably been expected from this group under anyone other than a Belichick or a Noll? The Steelers' fan base used to complain about Cowher routinely coming up short in the AFCC game, but at least he managed to lead his team there 6 times. The Tomlin years have not been as successful in comparison, which is why I disagree with a prior poster who has asserted that Tomlin has been every bit as good as Cowher. And as much as I like Cowher, I wouldn't put him in the same class as Belichick or Noll.

And of course the players bear significant responsibility. Ben has had some shaky playoff performances, and the D has routinely come up small. But it wasn't Ben's fault that the Steelers cut LeGarette Blount in 2014 and didn't bother to sign / prepare a back-up in case Bell got injured. It wasn't Ben's fault that the Steelers trotted out the same tired, doomed to fail defensive scheme against the Pats in the 2016 AFCC game, allowing Brady to eat them alive. It wasn't Ben's fault that the Steelers didn't / couldn't adjust their defensive scheme in 2017 to mitigate the loss of Shazier. Ben doesn't bear sole, or even primary, responsibility for the Steelers' inexplicable collapse mid-2018. Coaching played a role in all of those issues, didn't it? If not, then what does a coach even do? I don't think Tomlin is a bad coach by any stretch. But I also am not convinced that no one but Belichick could have done better than him with the Steelers teams of the past decade.

[Mojouw]

Thank you for clarifying. It seems you agree with my second proposition and think that Tomlin had as much success with this team as could have been reasonably expected and that it would have taken an all time great to do much better. I think your analysis is interesting and informative, but I still think its addressing a strawman to some extent. Does Tomlin still look as good relative to peers when we compare number of conference championship game appearances instead of Super Bowl appearances? How about when we compare Divisional Round appearances? Is 5 divisional round appearances in 13 years as good as could have reasonably been expected from this group under anyone other than a Belichick or a Noll? The Steelers' fan base used to complain about Cowher routinely coming up short in the AFCC game, but at least he managed to lead his team there 6 times. The Tomlin years have not been as successful in comparison, which is why I disagree with a prior poster who has asserted that Tomlin has been every bit as good as Cowher. And as much as I like Cowher, I wouldn't put him in the same class as Belichick or Noll.

And of course the players bear significant responsibility. Ben has had some shaky playoff performances, and the D has routinely come up small. But it wasn't Ben's fault that the Steelers cut LeGarette Blount in 2014 and didn't bother to sign / prepare a back-up in case Bell got injured. It wasn't Ben's fault that the Steelers trotted out the same tired, doomed to fail defensive scheme against the Pats in the 2016 AFCC game, allowing Brady to eat them alive. It wasn't Ben's fault that the Steelers didn't / couldn't adjust their defensive scheme in 2017 to mitigate the loss of Shazier. Ben doesn't bear sole, or even primary, responsibility for the Steelers' inexplicable collapse mid-2018. Coaching played a role in all of those issues, didn't it? If not, then what does a coach even do? I don't think Tomlin is a bad coach by any stretch. But I also am not convinced that no one but Belichick could have done better than him with the Steelers teams of the past decade.

Personally, I don't care what round of the playoffs you exit in. For me the measuring stick is SB or bust. Wildcard, Divisional, Conference -- not sure it really makes much of a difference. Especially when many (not all) of the playoff outs were to teams that went on to the SB.

It isn't really a strawman when people are specifically arguing that Tomlin has fallen short of expectations. My argument is that the expectations are flawed. If we look at the post salary cap NFL and especially the last 10-15 years of the NFL. There are no more 3-4 championship teams. Or even runs like the Levy-Kelly Bills. That is over. But fans still have that expectation. One franchise has met that expectation in this version of the NFL. Maybe the Reid-Mahomes Chiefs will.

For a case study -- look at the Carrol-Wilson Seahawks. They had an advantage that the Steelers never had under Tomlin...Wilson under a rookie contract. And it still has only resulted to 2 appearances in the SB.

If, as fans, we are setting a bar that no one is clearing or someone is only clearing once in a decade...I think that bar is set a bit too high.

[Fire Goodell]

he almost got there with no 14. I won’t fault cowher for that fiasco. Steelers had that SB in the bag. A good coach should be successful with a great QB. Belichick didn’t get anywhere without Brady either, he’s yet to prove he can win without him. But that’s why the last 8 years or so have been so frustrating, talking playoffs, we’ve got virtually nothing to show for a big part of Ben’s Postseason career. Tomlin imho has underachieved. Let’s see if a running game and Ben’s rehabbed arm can get anywhere this season

Not sure if he underachieved, imo, he would have won at least another if it wasn't for belichick and brady. Steeler runs into the playoffs always came to an end whenever facing them.

[W&M_Steeler]

Personally, I don't care what round of the playoffs you exit in. For me the measuring stick is SB or bust. Wildcard, Divisional, Conference -- not sure it really makes much of a difference. Especially when many (not all) of the playoff outs were to teams that went on to the SB.

It isn't really a strawman when people are specifically arguing that Tomlin has fallen short of expectations. My argument is that the expectations are flawed. If we look at the post salary cap NFL and especially the last 10-15 years of the NFL. There are no more 3-4 championship teams. Or even runs like the Levy-Kelly Bills. That is over. But fans still have that expectation. One franchise has met that expectation in this version of the NFL. Maybe the Reid-Mahomes Chiefs will.

For a case study -- look at the Carrol-Wilson Seahawks. They had an advantage that the Steelers never had under Tomlin...Wilson under a rookie contract. And it still has only resulted to 2 appearances in the SB.

If, as fans, we are setting a bar that no one is clearing or someone is only clearing once in a decade...I think that bar is set a bit too high.

I say you're making an strawman argument because you're setting a very high standard, then saying it's unreasonable to expect Tomlin to meet that standard so criticisms of his performance are unwarranted.

I am saying that not only does Tomlin not meet your standard, he hasn't met lower standards, and Tomlin's failure to meet the lower standards is why people argue Tomlin has underachieved. There's an objective difference between teams that make deep playoff runs and teams that flame out in the wildcard round. I would have had a much different feeling about last year had the Steelers lost in the AFCC game to the Chiefs than I did with them losing in the Wildcard round against the Browns. One outcome would have been more successful than another. If you can't make it past the Wild Card round, you're not going to make it to the Super Bowl. So, all things being equal, a coach who infrequently leads his team past the Wild Card round is objectively less successful than one who makes it past the Wild Card more often, just as a coach who routinely loses in the Wild Card round is still usually considered a better coach than one whose teams routinely miss the playoffs altogether.

Cowher made the Divisional Round 9 times in 15 years. Tomlin 5 times in 14 years. That's a pretty big difference and suggests an overall downgrade in relative competitiveness of the Steelers compared to the rest of the conference. Does Tomlin bear any responsibility for that?

- - - Updated - - -


Not sure if he underachieved, imo, he would have won at least another if it wasn't for belichick and brady. Steeler runs into the playoffs always came to an end whenever facing them.

The Steelers only faced the Pats in the playoffs once during Tomlin's tenure- the 2016 AFCC game.

[Mojouw]

I say you're making an strawman argument because you're setting a very high standard, then saying it's unreasonable to expect Tomlin to meet that standard so criticisms of his performance are unwarranted.

I am saying that not only does Tomlin not meet your standard, he hasn't met lower standards, and Tomlin's failure to meet the lower standards is why people argue Tomlin has underachieved. There's an objective difference between teams that make deep playoff runs and teams that flame out in the wildcard round. I would have had a much different feeling about last year had the Steelers lost in the AFCC game to the Chiefs than I did with them losing in the Wildcard round against the Browns. One outcome would have been more successful than another. If you can't make it past the Wild Card round, you're not going to make it to the Super Bowl. So, all things being equal, a coach who infrequently leads his team past the Wild Card round is objectively less successful than one who makes it past the Wild Card more often, just as a coach who routinely loses in the Wild Card round is still usually considered a better coach than one whose teams routinely miss the playoffs altogether.

Cowher made the Divisional Round 9 times in 15 years. Tomlin 5 times in 14 years. That's a pretty big difference and suggests an overall downgrade in relative competitiveness of the Steelers compared to the rest of the conference. Does Tomlin bear any responsibility for that?

I am not the one setting the standard. Read the hundreds of posts on this message board and people are talking about Super Bowls. So I addressed how that is an unreasonable standard that needs re-calibrated.

If you want to devise and implement the standard of "deep playoff" run - well what does that mean? If you want to measure coaches by "playoff success" again, what does that mean?

Many Steelers "early" playoff exits were to teams that only narrowly lost to the conference champion. Does that matter? I don't know...but we should determine if it is a variable to consider.

Again...the best measuring stick for NFL evaluation is usually peer performance. So here are the NFL coaches playoff records: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Football_League_head_coaches_by_p layoff_record

What would Tomlin need to do to not have "underachieved"? He is already on par with all other comparable active coaches - save one. The one everyone claims cheated his way to victory anyways. You already acknowledged that injuries severely negatively impacted multiple playoff runs during Tomlin's tenure. Say that we could magically uninjure Leveon Bell for a few of those games. And they win one more and add another AFCG appearance to the resume -- does that make the "under" in front of achievement go away? Or is it 3 more playoff victories? Anything short of an AFCCG appearance?

Everyone seems to have a different vague standard that is never defined and is never calibrated by actual real-world NFL outcomes. And if that is the standard a fan wants to have - great! I want to win the SB every season as a fan. But if I was running a team -- not sure that I would evaluate my staff on essentially unrealistic parameters.

[dislocatedday]

I've made posts here and there over the years with "complaints" about Tomlin and indicated at times that I think perhaps the Steelers should go in a different direction.

However, when I remove myself away from whatever disappointing loss or performance the team had that makes me think they should maybe move on from Tomlin, I eventually realize that he has and continues to be an excellent leader and coach overall. Players love to play for him as best I can tell as just a fan. I have never read reports or seen him lose a team or have players turn on each other, even when things are going bad. I have also heard defensive players talk about Tomlin initiating halftime adjustments on defense that turn things around dramatically in the 2nd half of games.

As a lifelong Steelers fan I am spoiled as this team has been one of the most successful franchises in the Super Bowl era. I go into every season with the expectation that the Steelers will bring home another Lombardi, even though I know it is completely unrealistic to expect that to happen every year. Most seasons end in disappointment.

I don't have a problem with this extension. If Tomlin is able to helm this team to another SB Title during his tenure, I think he will be then revered as a legend. Andy Reid was viewed as a coach who chokes in the playoffs and can't win a SB for a very long time...........now that he has won a SB title with the Chiefs everyone seems forget that he had this stigma around him that he was a coach who always came up short and could not get a team over the hump.

[86WARD]

How many of you had ever heard of Tomlin before he was hired? Are you seriously saying there's no one in the world better than Tomlin than Belichick? I know that I am an infrequent poster here and wandering into long standing arguments that various factions here have been waging against each other for years, but that seems like a real stretch of an argument to me.

I’m sure there are many people better than Tomlin. I just never see anyone suggest a name or mention a current head coach that’s better...it’s easy to say Tomlin “sucks”. But then so do a lot of his peers....

[W&M_Steeler]

What would Tomlin need to do to not have "underachieved"? He is already on par with all other comparable active coaches - save one.


I just did a quick and dirty comparison of some other coaches using the simple metric of how many times have they lead their team past the Wild Card round, and Tomlin doesn't stack up as well.

Dungy: 7 times in 13 seasons
Carroll with Seahawks: 7 times in 11 seasons
Mike McCarthy with Pack: 7 times in 13 seasons
John Harbaugh: 8 times in 13 seasons
Sean Payton: 7 times in 15 seasons
Andy Reid: 12 times in 22 seasons
And of course Belichick's insane 15 times in 21 seasons

Tomlin's 5 out of 14 doesn't look so impressive in comparison.

Interesting (at least to me), but what does that mean? I think it highlights Tomlin teams' habit of not taking terrible teams seriously and then losing to them, winding up hurting the Steelers in seeding and resulting in more Wild Card games. The fewer times you get a bye, the more often you risk playing in and losing in the Wild Card round- or, as in 2015, suffering crucial injuries in the wild card round that lead to a loss in the Divisional.

Does this mean Tomlin has underachieved? It helps that argument, IMO. The Steelers haven't been bereft of talent this past decade+, yet have had trouble finishing as the fourth best team in the conference. Is it unreasonable to expect that Tomlin should have reached the Divisional Round 7 or 8 times during his tenure instead of 5? I know the Steelers have suffered inopportune injuries, but so have all the other teams at some point.

[Mojouw]

I just did a quick and dirty comparison of some other coaches using the simple metric of how many times have they lead their team past the Wild Card round, and Tomlin doesn't stack up as well.

Dungy: 7 times in 13 seasons
Carroll with Seahawks: 7 times in 11 seasons
Mike McCarthy with Pack: 7 times in 13 seasons
John Harbaugh: 8 times in 13 seasons
Sean Payton: 7 times in 15 seasons
Andy Reid: 12 times in 22 seasons
And of course Belichick's insane 15 times in 21 seasons

Tomlin's 5 out of 14 doesn't look so impressive in comparison.

Interesting (at least to me), but what does that mean? I think it highlights Tomlin teams' habit of not taking terrible teams seriously and then losing to them, winding up hurting the Steelers in seeding and resulting in more Wild Card games. The fewer times you get a bye, the more often you risk playing in and losing in the Wild Card round- or, as in 2015, suffering crucial injuries in the wild card round that lead to a loss in the Divisional.

Does this mean Tomlin has underachieved? It helps that argument, IMO. The Steelers haven't been bereft of talent this past decade+, yet have had trouble finishing as the fourth best team in the conference. Is it unreasonable to expect that Tomlin should have reached the Divisional Round 7 or 8 times during his tenure instead of 5? I know the Steelers have suffered inopportune injuries, but so have all the other teams at some point.

Ok. So you need to have Tomlin win 2 more playoff games in 14 years and that would remove the "underachievement label. Fair enough.

Personally, I don't really see the difference between losing in the Wild Card or the divisional round. I guess I can see going to a conference championship game as somehow a more "successful" season.

And really we are talking about the following games:

2020 Browns WC loss - I have already stated my opinion that the 2020 team was doomed by the inability of the QB to do basic QB things. Your individual mileage may vary.
2017 Jags Divisional loss - it has been discussed ad infinitum. But that team never recovered from losing Shazier and there was little any coach could do to cover that up.
2015 Broncos Divisional loss - does it change things if you lose out to the eventual SB champion? Everyone else did...
2014 Ravens WC loss - isn't this the one that they had to start random guys off the street at RB?
2011 Broncos WC loss - Ike Taylor and Troy Polamalu got roasted by Tim Tebow. This one stings and signaled the end of that group of defenders.

So we have the 2011 loss that few fans have ever gotten over and either you blame Tomlin or you blame the guys that won SBs for you not being able to get it done. Pick your poison. And the rest of those...I am having a hard time seeing what the massive coaching screw up was. Because in 2020, 2017, and 2014 - many people EXPECTED the Steelers to lose those games due to massive injuries or shockingly poor play leading into the game. Again, individual mileage may vary.

Finally, it needs to be accounted for in some manner that when comparing the Tomlin era Steelers to other top teams in either conference, they are one of the few that consistently played in if not the most, one of the top 3 most competitive divisions in the entire league. Few other teams that have gone on 10+ year "runs" like the Tomlin helmed Steelers have had to contend with a divisional opponent as consistently good as the Ravens and throw in the Bengals as well. The bruising and typically competitive 2-5 games a year within the AFC North may go a LONG way to explaining "letdowns" against other teams.

[Dissolv]

That's a straight up "deliver or you suck" metric that ignores virtually everything that goes into making a good football franchise that makes runs into the playoffs. A great coach at Washington is still at Washington. It also throws out a LOT of important data to making a decision about whether or not Tomlin has been a good coach.

A great example is 2019. With Ben out, there was basically no way for Tomlin to meet the metric of "playoff wins", or even "playoff anything". This was confirmed by Mason Rudolph's generally poor performance and eventual benching. And yet a lot of people thought that Tomlin was a strong candidate for coach of the year. He did more, working with less than we have ever had an opportunity to see him with before. So how is that a coach you want to get rid of?

For the "he got stale" argument. Yes, a lot of teams run their coaching staff like that. You get a couple of years to come in, make a splash, try to make a run, and then good bye, sometimes win or lose. The Steelers have NEVER been like that. Consistency isn't just valued. It is the core value. When Tomlin goes, that will be a major changing of the guard, a new philosophy, and and a whole new era. I am really surprised when Steelers fans keep trying to act like the Steelers run their coaching staff like a carousel. That's for the other, lesser teams. And some of them are learning the value of keeping scheme and staff through the tough times, and seeing it pay benefits later on. Think the Raven's haven't noticed? Harbaugh has been in Baltimore for 13 years.

So yeah, the Steelers aren't getting into the playoffs, or deep enough into the playoffs for my tastes either. But is that a thing that ditching Tomlin helps or hinders? And how do you know?

[teegre]

I have never read reports or seen him lose a team or have players turn on each other, even when things are going bad.

Colin Cowherd hates Tomlin... has for years. But, after the 2019 season, Cowherd changed his tune just a tad. Just yesterday, I heard Cowherd talk about just what you wrote:

"Tomlin never loses the locker room."

Cowherd went on:

"Even Belichick will have the occasional losing streak, but the good coaches know how to keep the locker room. Tomlin is a leader of men, an Alpha male... there is NO denying that."

[Steeler-in-west]

3-6 playoff record since 2011. The record speaks for itself. This during the tenure of arguably the best Steeler QB we’ve ever had, with plenty of weapons around him. This is a little below Sean Payton’s 5-6 mark during the same period. You can blame player execution only so much - if it keeps repeating year after year that’s on the coaches. Ultimately Noll said it best “the critics are always right, best way to shut them up is by winning”

[W&M_Steeler]

Ok. So you need to have Tomlin win 2 more playoff games in 14 years and that would remove the "underachievement label. Fair enough.

Personally, I don't really see the difference between losing in the Wild Card or the divisional round. I guess I can see going to a conference championship game as somehow a more "successful" season.

Yes, I think it would be much harder to paint Tomlin as an underachiever had made it past the Wildcard round 2 or 3 more times. That would put his ratio more in line with his peers and with Cowher's. If one or two or those runs would have ended in AFCC games even better. And I see a significant difference between losing in the Wild Card round and losing in the Divisional Round. Plenty of mediocre teams back into the playoffs as a 6th seed or a 4th seed and go one and done in the playoffs. Doing so isn't particularly impressive. Winning a playoff round- or doing so well in the regular season that you get a bye- is significant. It's much more unlikely that a mediocre team sneaks into the Divisional. Getting to the conference's final four is much more of an accomplishment, and it's something that Tomlin's peers have done with more regularity with him. Of course getting to the conference championship is even better, and the Super Bowl better still, but I think making the divisional round is not unrealistic for the conferences top teams.


And really we are talking about the following games:

2020 Browns WC loss - I have already stated my opinion that the 2020 team was doomed by the inability of the QB to do basic QB things. Your individual mileage may vary.
2017 Jags Divisional loss - it has been discussed ad infinitum. But that team never recovered from losing Shazier and there was little any coach could do to cover that up.
2015 Broncos Divisional loss - does it change things if you lose out to the eventual SB champion? Everyone else did...
2014 Ravens WC loss - isn't this the one that they had to start random guys off the street at RB?
2011 Broncos WC loss - Ike Taylor and Troy Polamalu got roasted by Tim Tebow. This one stings and signaled the end of that group of defenders.

So we have the 2011 loss that few fans have ever gotten over and either you blame Tomlin or you blame the guys that won SBs for you not being able to get it done. Pick your poison. And the rest of those...I am having a hard time seeing what the massive coaching screw up was. Because in 2020, 2017, and 2014 - many people EXPECTED the Steelers to lose those games due to massive injuries or shockingly poor play leading into the game. Again, individual mileage may vary.

I disagree with your assessments:

2011: An embarrassing loss, no doubt, but I actually cut Tomlin more slack on this one than you do. Not only did the Steelers lose Mendenhall the week before, but they also lost several key players (Max Starks, Casey Hampton, Brett Keisel) during the game. That's alot to overcome mid-game. Not to mention Ryan Clark not playing due to sickle cell. They still probably should have won, but it was the end of an era for the D and not one that I hold against Tomlin in particular.

2012: The Steelers should have at least made the playoffs this year. They lost at home to what would be the 5-11 Browns in December (giving up 8 turnovers in the process) and against the would be 7-9 Chargers in December who literally signed 3 street free agents to start on the O-line that game. Steelers were overwhelming favorites, yet lost. Had the Steelers won either of those games, they would have made the playoffs, but they suffered their now customary inexplicable losses and missed out.

2014: One of Tomlin's worst years. You are correct that the Steelers started a street free agent in that Wild Card game against the Ravens- Ben Tate. But it was coaching / roster malpractice that it got to that point. The Steelers had LeGarrette Blount on the roster that year, but somehow things got so bad that the Steelers ended up cutting him a few games into the season. Allegedly he was told he would be sharing carries with Bell, then never saw the field so became sulky. So ok, you cut your big free agent signing RB 1B a few games into the season- surely you sign a back-up, or at least make sure someone on your roster can step up if 1A Bell goes down. But they didn't do that, because apparently RBs never get injured. The Steelers then plow ahead with no real back-up for Bell, keeping only non-entities Dri Archer and Josh Harris on the roster. Then, when Bell gets injured in week 17, the Steelers have to go sign a street free agent to start a playoff game at RB. I don't know whether Tomlin or Colbert is more responsible for that debacle, but they sacrificed the season with their short-sightedness. Meanwhile, Blount signs with the Pats and wins the Super Bowl that year. To make things worse, the Steelers probably should have had a bye secured by week 17 had they not lost to both the 2-14 Mike Glennon Bucs (in Pittsburgh!) and the 4-12 NY Jets. 13-3 would have made the Steelers the 1 seed that year. So negligent roster management and dropping games to terrible teams turned what should have been a Divisional Round game with Bell and Blount as RBs into a Wild Card week loss with Ben Tate to the Ravens. Horrible, and a waste of Ben's best year as a pro.

2015: I don't hold this against Tomlin. He and Colbert recognized that Bell actually needed a competent back-up, hit a home run by signing D Will, only to see both Bell and D Will lost before the playoffs. Then, against the Bengals and starting a platoon of Fitz Touissant and Jordan Todman, Ben and AB both suffer significant injuries with Landry Jones seeing significant playing time. Frankly, the Steelers should have lost that game and would have but for Joey Porter's timely assist. The fact that the Steelers were in the position to beat the eventual champion Broncos in the 4th Q in Denver, only to be undone by a Fitz Touissant fumble, is unfortunate and a credit to Tomlin. Had the Steelers had better injury luck that year, I think they win it all. Alas...

2016: I don't hold this against Tomlin either. Between suspensions and injuries, the Steelers' WR corps imploded to the point they had to start CFL-level Cobi Hamilton in the AFCC game opposite AB. The decision not to try something new on D against the Pats drove me crazy, but I think they went as far as their talent could take them in 2016.

2017: Agreed that losing Shazier ripped out the Steelers' heart, but I still think they could have done something more to adjust than what they did in the 8 weeks after he went down so as to be a little less pathetic. Plus, I don't understand why at least some Steelers were apparently looking past the Jags when the Jags had already beat them with Shazier. The Jags were a bad match-up for them. Of course, had the Steelers not lost to Mike Tomlin's nemesis Mike Glennon and the would be 5-11 Chicago Bears, the Steelers would have finished 14-2, the #1 seed, and they wouldn't have had to play the Jags at all. I would have fired Butler with Haley after the Divisional round loss.

2018: Hard to believe that you omitted this- Tomlin's worst year- in your review. This was a complete debacle and highlighted all of Tomlin's worst traits, from the lose-from-ahead tie in Cleveland to the horrible lose-from-ahead losses against the Broncos and the Raiders (where Tomlin mismanged the clock and overlooked the opponent by holding out Ben longer than necessary because he thought he could beat the Raiders with Dobbs). The Steelers should have made the playoffs this year- and had they beaten the Browns, Broncos, and Raiders, would have had a bye. This was the first season I wanted Tomlin fired.

2019: This season redeemed Tomlin in my eyes somewhat, when he took Steelers garbage and made it respectable. In hindsight, this season looks less impressive, as I am not sure how much of the offensive ineptitude was Mason & Duck and how much was Fichtner.

2020: I don't see how you think this season makes Tomlin look good. The Steelers feasted against a string of non-entities (and the pre-injury defense looked suspect against QBs like Jeff Driskell, down year Carson Wentz, and Garrett Gilbert), then went completely off the rails. I bet the Steelers would have lost to some CFL teams had they played them in December. Sneaking into a playoff game against the COVID-depleted Browns, the Steelers misfire at all levels. I know it's cool to blame this entire loss on Ben, but I don't understand how anyone can absolve the Defense of their role in this debacle. Not to mention the run game, which didn't exist all season. Is Tomlin blameless in the shameful end of the 2020 season?

In short, I think Tomlin's Steelers should have at least made the playoffs in 2012 and 2018, and I think the Steelers should have gone further than what they did in 2014 and 2017. 2020 is also a great frustration, though I don't yet know what caused the collapse. Did Ben really fall off a cliff? Did the complete lack of run game, combined with an amateur O-Coordinator, doom our offense to failure once Ben was figured out? Was the 2020 team just a mirage that feasted off bad teams for the first 2/3rds of the season? I don't know. But yes, I think the 2010s Steelers could have done better And by comparing Tomlin against his contemporaries, I think he probably should have been expected to do at least somewhat better. I think there comes a time when a coach needs to get on with his life's work. It happened to Noll. It happened to Cowher. I think that time has come with Tomlin, and I wouldn't have extended him.

[W&M_Steeler]

That's a straight up "deliver or you suck" metric that ignores virtually everything that goes into making a good football franchise that makes runs into the playoffs. A great coach at Washington is still at Washington. It also throws out a LOT of important data to making a decision about whether or not Tomlin has been a good coach.

A great example is 2019. With Ben out, there was basically no way for Tomlin to meet the metric of "playoff wins", or even "playoff anything". This was confirmed by Mason Rudolph's generally poor performance and eventual benching. And yet a lot of people thought that Tomlin was a strong candidate for coach of the year. He did more, working with less than we have ever had an opportunity to see him with before. So how is that a coach you want to get rid of?

For the "he got stale" argument. Yes, a lot of teams run their coaching staff like that. You get a couple of years to come in, make a splash, try to make a run, and then good bye, sometimes win or lose. The Steelers have NEVER been like that. Consistency isn't just valued. It is the core value. When Tomlin goes, that will be a major changing of the guard, a new philosophy, and and a whole new era. I am really surprised when Steelers fans keep trying to act like the Steelers run their coaching staff like a carousel. That's for the other, lesser teams. And some of them are learning the value of keeping scheme and staff through the tough times, and seeing it pay benefits later on. Think the Raven's haven't noticed? Harbaugh has been in Baltimore for 13 years.

So yeah, the Steelers aren't getting into the playoffs, or deep enough into the playoffs for my tastes either. But is that a thing that ditching Tomlin helps or hinders? And how do you know?

You're acting like we're saying Tomlin should have been tossed after year 3. None of your arguments make sense when you stop to consider that we're discussing a HC who has been here for 14 years. Tomlin is a good coach, but I think he is past his expiration date, and I don't expect that he'll win another Super Bowl with the Steelers. Will his successor be better than him? That remains to be seen. But at some point there comes a time when a coach needs to leave for the betterment of the team. I think we're entering Jeff Fisher / Marvin Lewis territory for Tomlin. Ownership obviously thinks differently. We'll see who's right.

[Mojouw]

Yes, I think it would be much harder to paint Tomlin as an underachiever had made it past the Wildcard round 2 or 3 more times. That would put his ratio more in line with his peers and with Cowher's. If one or two or those runs would have ended in AFCC games even better. And I see a significant difference between losing in the Wild Card round and losing in the Divisional Round. Plenty of mediocre teams back into the playoffs as a 6th seed or a 4th seed and go one and done in the playoffs. Doing so isn't particularly impressive. Winning a playoff round- or doing so well in the regular season that you get a bye- is significant. It's much more unlikely that a mediocre team sneaks into the Divisional. Getting to the conference's final four is much more of an accomplishment, and it's something that Tomlin's peers have done with more regularity with him. Of course getting to the conference championship is even better, and the Super Bowl better still, but I think making the divisional round is not unrealistic for the conferences top teams.



I disagree with your assessments:

2011: An embarrassing loss, no doubt, but I actually cut Tomlin more slack on this one than you do. Not only did the Steelers lose Mendenhall the week before, but they also lost several key players (Max Starks, Casey Hampton, Brett Keisel) during the game. That's alot to overcome mid-game. Not to mention Ryan Clark not playing due to sickle cell. They still probably should have won, but it was the end of an era for the D and not one that I hold against Tomlin in particular.

2012: The Steelers should have at least made the playoffs this year. They lost at home to what would be the 5-11 Browns in December (giving up 8 turnovers in the process) and against the would be 7-9 Chargers in December who literally signed 3 street free agents to start on the O-line that game. Steelers were overwhelming favorites, yet lost. Had the Steelers won either of those games, they would have made the playoffs, but they suffered their now customary inexplicable losses and missed out.

2014: One of Tomlin's worst years. You are correct that the Steelers started a street free agent in that Wild Card game against the Ravens- Ben Tate. But it was coaching / roster malpractice that it got to that point. The Steelers had LeGarrette Blount on the roster that year, but somehow things got so bad that the Steelers ended up cutting him a few games into the season. Allegedly he was told he would be sharing carries with Bell, then never saw the field so became sulky. So ok, you cut your big free agent signing RB 1B a few games into the season- surely you sign a back-up, or at least make sure someone on your roster can step up if 1A Bell goes down. But they didn't do that, because apparently RBs never get injured. The Steelers then plow ahead with no real back-up for Bell, keeping only non-entities Dri Archer and Josh Harris on the roster. Then, when Bell gets injured in week 17, the Steelers have to go sign a street free agent to start a playoff game at RB. I don't know whether Tomlin or Colbert is more responsible for that debacle, but they sacrificed the season with their short-sightedness. Meanwhile, Blount signs with the Pats and wins the Super Bowl that year. To make things worse, the Steelers probably should have had a bye secured by week 17 had they not lost to both the 2-14 Mike Glennon Bucs (in Pittsburgh!) and the 4-12 NY Jets. 13-3 would have made the Steelers the 1 seed that year. So negligent roster management and dropping games to terrible teams turned what should have been a Divisional Round game with Bell and Blount as RBs into a Wild Card week loss with Ben Tate to the Ravens. Horrible, and a waste of Ben's best year as a pro.

2015: I don't hold this against Tomlin. He and Colbert recognized that Bell actually needed a competent back-up, hit a home run by signing D Will, only to see both Bell and D Will lost before the playoffs. Then, against the Bengals and starting a platoon of Fitz Touissant and Jordan Todman, Ben and AB both suffer significant injuries with Landry Jones seeing significant playing time. Frankly, the Steelers should have lost that game and would have but for Joey Porter's timely assist. The fact that the Steelers were in the position to beat the eventual champion Broncos in the 4th Q in Denver, only to be undone by a Fitz Touissant fumble, is unfortunate and a credit to Tomlin. Had the Steelers had better injury luck that year, I think they win it all. Alas...

2016: I don't hold this against Tomlin either. Between suspensions and injuries, the Steelers' WR corps imploded to the point they had to start CFL-level Cobi Hamilton in the AFCC game opposite AB. The decision not to try something new on D against the Pats drove me crazy, but I think they went as far as their talent could take them in 2016.

2017: Agreed that losing Shazier ripped out the Steelers' heart, but I still think they could have done something more to adjust than what they did in the 8 weeks after he went down so as to be a little less pathetic. Plus, I don't understand why at least some Steelers were apparently looking past the Jags when the Jags had already beat them with Shazier. The Jags were a bad match-up for them. Of course, had the Steelers not lost to Mike Tomlin's nemesis Mike Glennon and the would be 5-11 Chicago Bears, the Steelers would have finished 14-2, the #1 seed, and they wouldn't have had to play the Jags at all. I would have fired Butler with Haley after the Divisional round loss.

2018: Hard to believe that you omitted this- Tomlin's worst year- in your review. This was a complete debacle and highlighted all of Tomlin's worst traits, from the lose-from-ahead tie in Cleveland to the horrible lose-from-ahead losses against the Broncos and the Raiders (where Tomlin mismanged the clock and overlooked the opponent by holding out Ben longer than necessary because he thought he could beat the Raiders with Dobbs). The Steelers should have made the playoffs this year- and had they beaten the Browns, Broncos, and Raiders, would have had a bye. This was the first season I wanted Tomlin fired.

2019: This season redeemed Tomlin in my eyes somewhat, when he took Steelers garbage and made it respectable. In hindsight, this season looks less impressive, as I am not sure how much of the offensive ineptitude was Mason & Duck and how much was Fichtner.

2020: I don't see how you think this season makes Tomlin look good. The Steelers feasted against a string of non-entities (and the pre-injury defense looked suspect against QBs like Jeff Driskell, down year Carson Wentz, and Garrett Gilbert), then went completely off the rails. I bet the Steelers would have lost to some CFL teams had they played them in December. Sneaking into a playoff game against the COVID-depleted Browns, the Steelers misfire at all levels. I know it's cool to blame this entire loss on Ben, but I don't understand how anyone can absolve the Defense of their role in this debacle. Not to mention the run game, which didn't exist all season. Is Tomlin blameless in the shameful end of the 2020 season?

In short, I think Tomlin's Steelers should have at least made the playoffs in 2012 and 2018, and I think the Steelers should have gone further than what they did in 2014 and 2017. 2020 is also a great frustration, though I don't yet know what caused the collapse. Did Ben really fall off a cliff? Did the complete lack of run game, combined with an amateur O-Coordinator, doom our offense to failure once Ben was figured out? I don't know. But yes, I think the 2010s Steelers could have done better And by comparing Tomlin against his contemporaries, I think he probably should have been expected to do at least somewhat better. I think there comes a time when a coach needs to get on with his life's work. It happened to Noll. It happened to Cowher. I think that time has come with Tomlin, and I wouldn't have extended him.

I only looked at years they actually made the playoffs. So basically you take issue with the Jags and Browns playoffs games and then seasons the team didn't make the playoffs.

I am not sure what they could have done to recover from the Shazier loss with the roster they had. They were already basically planning on Ryan Shazier and some dudes at LB. Then it was just some dudes. Having a pair of safeties that did not live up to their billing didn't help either. I really don't think anyone looked past the Jags so much as they got their asses kicked by a team that exposed the total lack of middle of the field play-making on the 2017 defense. I think it is hardly a surprise that since then the Steelers have added Edmunds, Fitzpatrick, Bush, UG3, Spillane, Allen, Brooks, and a few others in attempts to not have that roster deficiency exposed again. Who knows? Maybe that 2017 is on Colbert?

Again, for 2020 I believe that the OC didn't do anything to help matters, but 2020 crashing and burning was inevitable based on the diminished capacity of Ben R to play QB at a high level. You are correct, they feasted on bad teams (or at least teams with flaws they could exploit) and then good or better teams exposed the Steelers significant flaws in turn. I shudder to think what the Chiefs would have done to them had they scraped past the Browns.

For some of the other years...wasn't that about when the defense all got old at the same time? Isn't 2014 when Troy P finally just had his body disintegrate around him? I am too lazy to look it up. Wasn't most of the roster injured for all of 2021? Again...I am far too lazy to look it up. But I seem to remember that being a weird one. I think several key players were gone for over half the season.

Anyways...we are not going to agree on this no matter how much we post back and forth. All I know is that I look around the NFL and I don't see anyone who is doing it all that much better. Maybe equal/same tier but not like "Oh. That! That is what a real tangible improvement looks like!".

[W&M_Steeler]

I only looked at years they actually made the playoffs. So basically you take issue with the Jags and Browns playoffs games and then seasons the team didn't make the playoffs.

No, you're just choosing to focus on years that are easier for you to defend. 2014 and 2018 in particular are indefensible for Tomlin (and possibly Colbert in 2014). On the other hand, I don't blame Tomlin for missing the playoffs in 2013 because I think the Steelers were in a rebuild and I don't think the team was very good. Plus, I have shown that Tomlin hasn't been as successful at getting past the Wild Card round as several of his peers have been. All in all, I think I have explained why it is at least reasonable to take the position that Tomlin underachieved this decade.

[Mojouw]

No, you're just choosing to focus on years that are easier for you to defend. 2014 and 2018 in particular are indefensible for Tomlin (and possibly Colbert in 2014). On the other hand, I don't blame Tomlin for missing the playoffs in 2013 because I think the Steelers were in a rebuild and I don't think the team was very good. Plus, I have shown that Tomlin hasn't been as successful at getting past the Wild Card round as several of his peers have been. All in all, I think I have explained why it is at least reasonable to take the position that Tomlin underachieved this decade.

No. I only focused on playoff years because the original conversation was started about SB's appeared in and won. Then it got shifted to advancing beyond the WC round. So I did a super quick sketch of the years the team didn't do that - and threw in some divisional round appearances as well. Because that was what the revised benchmark for "achievement" was.

Now...we are back to a vague and undefined parameter that can be identified as "years that Steelers fans think they team should have made the playoffs but didn't and here is how I rationalize that into a measurable parameter". What makes one year a "should have" made it and one year an "acceptable" missed playoff appearance? How is this being looked at? And if we have expanded beyond the move past the WC round of the playoffs benchmark, did you look up the stats for your list for that revised benchmark for achievement?

Dungy: 2 out of 13 years missed playoffs (spread over two teams which needs accounting for somehow - he never rebuilt on the fly)
Carroll with Seahawks: 2 out of 11
Mike McCarthy with Pack: 5 out of 13
John Harbaugh: 4 out of 13
Sean Payton: 5 out of 14
Andy Reid: 5 out of 14 with Philadelphia and 1 out 8 with KC

For comparison - Tomlin: 5 out of 14

So he is off the pace set by Dungy and Carroll but on the pace set by other well regarded coaches.

[DesertSteel]

No, you're just choosing to focus on years that are easier for you to defend.
Anyone who wants to use their brain could see he was listing playoff years. Whether I agree or disagree with his assessments or not is irrelevant. It was clear.

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The Tomlin hate sure brings the dormant posters out of the woodworks.

[W&M_Steeler]

No. I only focused on playoff years because the original conversation was started about SB's appeared in and won. Then it got shifted to advancing beyond the WC round. So I did a super quick sketch of the years the team didn't do that - and threw in some divisional round appearances as well. Because that was what the revised benchmark for "achievement" was.

Now...we are back to a vague and undefined parameter that can be identified as "years that Steelers fans think they team should have made the playoffs but didn't and here is how I rationalize that into a measurable parameter". What makes one year a "should have" made it and one year an "acceptable" missed playoff appearance? How is this being looked at? And if we have expanded beyond the move past the WC round of the playoffs benchmark, did you look up the stats for your list for that revised benchmark for achievement?

Dungy: 2 out of 13 years missed playoffs (spread over two teams which needs accounting for somehow - he never rebuilt on the fly)
Carroll with Seahawks: 2 out of 11
Mike McCarthy with Pack: 5 out of 13
John Harbaugh: 4 out of 13
Sean Payton: 5 out of 14
Andy Reid: 5 out of 14 with Philadelphia and 1 out 8 with KC

For comparison - Tomlin: 5 out of 14

So he is off the pace set by Dungy and Carroll but on the pace set by other well regarded coaches.

No, he is off the pace of all the coaches I listed in my earlier post. You need to justify why Tomlin should get a pass for missing the playoffs in 2018 (and to a lesser extent 2012). To me, that's a stark example of Tomlin's weaknesses. I see no reason to just handwave that away. If you can find examples of other Tomlin peers who have had other comparable collapses, then I'd be interested. Until then, we are left with Tomlin being less likely to make the Divisional Round than his peers and with at least one really ugly play-off missing collapse with no obvious explanation (not even the injury excuse that kinda/sorta gives Tomlin a partial excuse for 2020). Your position sounds like the inverse of the Willie Parker detractors who always wanted to take away his big runs when discussing him. If you don't count Tomlin's bad years, then he's a great coach! I don't think your argument that we can't analyze why the Steelers missed the playoffs as part of our critique of Tomlin's body of work makes any sense at all. Besides, 2014 was a playoff year. Tomlin put the team in a horrible position through gross in-season roster mismanagement and overseeing two egregious losses against bottom feeders. But that doesn't seem to matter for some reason.

Tomlin is a good coach. I have said that a dozen times in this thread. But I don't think he is any better than a half dozen of his peers at least, and I think that by the metric I explained he has underachieved in comparison to them. You might not agree with using "getting past the Wild Card round" as a metric, but I think it provides more useful and illuminating comparison than your initially proposed Super Bowl metric. There is only 1 Super Bowl winner and 2 participants each year. There are 8 divsional round participants each year. Tomlin's well-regarded peers seem to have around a 50% success rate of at least achieving that level of success. Tomlin is around 35%. Why is that?

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Anyone who wants to use their brain could see he was listing playoff years. Whether I agree or disagree with his assessments or not is irrelevant. It was clear.
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The Tomlin hate sure brings the dormant posters out of the woodworks.

And it's clear that I was judging Tomlin's entire body of work. Why should I ignore the bad years just because it's inconvenient for Mojouw's argument? Besides, 2014 was a playoff year. I pointed out why I put that year on Tomlin. He handwaved that away.

As an aside, the level of discourse that would call my comments "hate" is probably what makes people dormant here in the first place. What is the site for if we're not discussing the Steelers? Are we supposed to mindless say everything is great all the time? I love Tomlin. He's arguably my alma mater's greatest success in professional sports. I am not a hater. I just think his time is up.

[ETL]

I’m happy he’s going to be here for several more years.

Being a Steelers fan is being a fan of the Rooney’s and their patient consistent ways. If you don’t like it - go be a Cowboys or Browns or WFT fan. You will get your new coach fix every 2-3 years. Sometimes even after one year.

(imagine if Cleveland was just patient and kept Belichik as HC ... )

[W&M_Steeler]

I’m happy he’s going to be here for several more years.

Being a Steelers fan is being a fan of the Rooney’s and their patient consistent ways. If you don’t like it - go be a Cowboys or Browns or WFT fan. You will get your new coach fix every 2-3 years. Sometimes even after one year.

(imagine if Cleveland was just patient and kept Belichik as HC ... )

Yeah, I'd hate to jump the gun with a hasty decision after only 14 years...

Hypnotic boobs or not, I have to disagree with you. Do you ever think it is justified to second guess or criticize a Steelers' decision?

[Mojouw]

No, he is off the pace of all the coaches I listed in my earlier post. You need to justify why Tomlin should get a pass for missing the playoffs in 2018 (and to a lesser extent 2012). To me, that's a stark example of Tomlin's weaknesses. I see no reason to just handwave that away. If you can find examples of other Tomlin peers who have had other comparable collapses, then I'd be interested. Until then, we are left with Tomlin being less likely to make the Divisional Round than his peers and with at least one really ugly play-off missing collapse with no obvious explanation (not even the injury excuse that kinda/sorta gives Tomlin a partial excuse for 2020). Your position sounds like the inverse of the Willie Parker detractors who always wanted to take away his big runs when discussing him. If you don't count Tomlin's bad years, then he's a great coach! I don't think your argument that we can't analyze why the Steelers missed the playoffs as part of our critique of Tomlin's body of work makes any sense at all. Besides, 2014 was a playoff year. Tomlin put the team in a horrible position through gross in-season roster mismanagement and overseeing two egregious losses against bottom feeders. But that doesn't seem to matter for some reason.

Tomlin is a good coach. I have said that a dozen times in this thread. But I don't think he is any better than a half dozen of his peers at least, and I think that by the metric I explained he has underachieved in comparison to them. You might not agree with using "getting past the Wild Card round" as a metric, but I think it provides more useful and illuminating comparison than your initially proposed Super Bowl metric. There is only 1 Super Bowl winner and 2 participants each year. There are 8 divsional round participants each year. Tomlin's well-regarded peers seem to have around a 50% success rate of at least achieving that level of success. Tomlin is around 35%. Why is that?

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And it's clear that I was judging Tomlin's entire body of work. Why should I ignore the bad years just because it's inconvenient for Mojouw's argument? Besides, 2014 was a playoff year. I pointed out why I put that year on Tomlin. He handwaved that away.

As an aside, the level of discourse that would call my comments "hate" is probably what makes people dormant here in the first place. What is the site for if we're not discussing the Steelers? Are we supposed to mindless say everything is great all the time? I love Tomlin. He's arguably my alma mater's greatest success in professional sports. I am not a hater. I just think his time is up.

Again. This was ALL started by the typically (and not my fault if you don't read the literally hundreds) posts here that Tomlin=underachievement because SBs or something. It gets hard to follow.

We have cleared up how that just doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

Then we have some sort of moving target thing where it started as playoff appearances, then became moving past the WC round, but maybe the divisional round too, and then it circled back to both moving past the WC round AND not missing the playoffs. Honestly I am not sure I really followed it all. So it is bad in some years to make the playoffs and lose in the WC round but it would make other bad years good if the team lost in the WC round instead of staying home at the end of the regular season? This appears to be known as Heisenberg's Playoff Uncertainty Principle. Sometimes a WC is BAD, but other times it is GOOD. Apparently depending on how much you want to fire Tomlin?

You laid a case that Tomlin is behind several active coaches in WC round advances. Agreed. The numbers don't lie. You then stated that it was far more galling/damning in terms of underachievement (the original thing I was attempting to understand how people were measuring) that Tomlin missed the playoffs in seasons. I then showed that using the same WC comparison list, he comes out looking pretty good - or at least comparable. Now, you're back to the WC round thing.

So, back to the original question I posed to start all of this nonsense -- what is the benchmark you are using to designate "underachievement"? If other active (or even recently retired/fired) coaches are evaluated using the same benchmark, how do they fare compared to Mike Tomlin? Scattered throughout this thread are 3-4 names that appear to be doing it "better" than Tomlin over sustained periods of time (Dungy, Belichick, Carroll, and Reid) and a few that are hovering in the same tier as Tomlin. Can shift the names around based on the criteria used. So we are left to conclude, what, Tomlin is roughly one of the 5-10 most successful coaches in the league over the last 15 years? Or have I missed something entirely?

[DesertSteel]

And it's clear that I was judging Tomlin's entire body of work. Why should I ignore the bad years just because it's inconvenient for Mojouw's argument? Besides, 2014 was a playoff year. I pointed out why I put that year on Tomlin. He handwaved that away.

As an aside, the level of discourse that would call my comments "hate" is probably what makes people dormant here in the first place. What is the site for if we're not discussing the Steelers? Are we supposed to mindless say everything is great all the time? I love Tomlin. He's arguably my alma mater's greatest success in professional sports. I am not a hater. I just think his time is up.
You don’t need a reason.

[W&M_Steeler]

Again. This was ALL started by the typically (and not my fault if you don't read the literally hundreds) posts here that Tomlin=underachievement because SBs or something. It gets hard to follow.

We have cleared up how that just doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

Then we have some sort of moving target thing where it started as playoff appearances, then became moving past the WC round, but maybe the divisional round too, and then it circled back to both moving past the WC round AND not missing the playoffs. Honestly I am not sure I really followed it all. So it is bad in some years to make the playoffs and lose in the WC round but it would make other bad years good if the team lost in the WC round instead of staying home at the end of the regular season? This appears to be known as Heisenberg's Playoff Uncertainty Principle. Sometimes a WC is BAD, but other times it is GOOD. Apparently depending on how much you want to fire Tomlin?

You laid a case that Tomlin is behind several active coaches in WC round advances. Agreed. The numbers don't lie. You then stated that it was far more galling/damning in terms of underachievement (the original thing I was attempting to understand how people were measuring) that Tomlin missed the playoffs in seasons. I then showed that using the same WC comparison list, he comes out looking pretty good - or at least comparable. Now, you're back to the WC round thing.

I don't get this line of argument at all. Do you think it is possible for a fan to critique a team's performance? Do you think that some circumstances make losses more understandable than others? Of course you do- otherwise you wouldn't spend any time on football message boards. I think the 2014 playoff loss was much worse than the 2015 or 2016 playoff losses. I think missing the playoffs in 2018 was far less defensible than missing the playoffs in 2013. I could discuss these points in great detail if we wanted to do so. I am sure you could too. Pretending that this is some incomprehensible concept is a waste of time, frankly. If you don't want to include 2018 in the discussion, then fine- I don't need it to make my point about the Divisional Round (as a stand in for playoff runs). I just think that doing so omits the worst coaching of Tomlin's career, which seems to be relevant to a discussion about the quality of Tomlin's body of work. 2018 was a golden opportunity for the Steelers to make a playoff run that was inexplicably squandered.


So, back to the original question I posed to start all of this nonsense -- what is the benchmark you are using to designate "underachievement"? If other active (or even recently retired/fired) coaches are evaluated using the same benchmark, how do they fare compared to Mike Tomlin? Scattered throughout this thread are 3-4 names that appear to be doing it "better" than Tomlin over sustained periods of time (Dungy, Belichick, Carroll, and Reid) and a few that are hovering in the same tier as Tomlin. Can shift the names around based on the criteria used. So we are left to conclude, what, Tomlin is roughly one of the 5-10 most successful coaches in the league over the last 15 years? Or have I missed something entirely?

No, I think we are in agreement on a lot of things, and I have enjoyed this conversation (in case my tone is somehow not coming off clearly). I agree with you that Tomlin is one of the top 10 or so best coaches of the past 15 years, and I agree that I think it's unreasonable to call Tomlin a failure for not winning a Super Bowl this decade. However, I also think that you can make an argument that, nevertheless, he has underachieved in comparison to his well-regarded peers using the Divisional Round metric. Those are two different arguments. And I have also (needlessly?) inserted a third argument- that Tomlin has grown stale and, despite his past success, should be changed out to increase the chance of greater success going forward (albeit admittedly risking that the Steelers would hire someone less successful- no risk, no reward IMO).

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You don’t need a reason.

Good one. I bet there are 6,000 other similar pearls of wisdom in your posts.

[Mojouw]

I don't get this line of argument at all. Do you think it is possible for a fan to critique a team's performance? Do you think that some circumstances make losses more understandable than others? Of course you do- otherwise you wouldn't spend any time on football message boards. I think the 2014 playoff loss was much worse than the 2015 or 2016 playoff losses. I think missing the playoffs in 2018 was far less defensible than missing the playoffs in 2013. I could discuss these points in great detail if we wanted to do so. I am sure you could too. Pretending that this is some incomprehensible concept is a waste of time, frankly. If you don't want to include 2018 in the discussion, then fine- I don't need it to make my point about the Divisional Round (as a stand in for playoff runs). I just think that doing so omits the worst coaching of Tomlin's career, which seems to be relevant to a discussion about the quality of Tomlin's body of work. 2018 was a golden opportunity for the Steelers to make a playoff run that was inexplicably squandered.



No, I think we are in agreement on a lot of things, and I have enjoyed this conversation (in case my tone is somehow not coming off clearly). I agree with you that Tomlin is one of the top 10 or so best coaches of the past 15 years, and I agree that I think it's unreasonable to call Tomlin a failure for not winning a Super Bowl this decade. However, I also think that you can make an argument that, nevertheless, he has underachieved in comparison to his well-regarded peers using the Divisional Round metric. Those are two different arguments. And I have also (needlessly?) inserted a third argument- that Tomlin has grown stale and, despite his past success, should be changed out to increase the chance of greater success going forward (albeit admittedly risking that the Steelers would hire someone less successful- no risk, no reward IMO).

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Good one. I bet there are 6,000 other similar pearls of wisdom in your posts.

It is a good conversation. No problems at all there. And your last bit is all I wanted to kind of confirm. There are multiple different arguments/positions that get all wrapped up under the banner of "underachievement" and I strongly believe it is importanta and worthwhile to separate them. So if we pull apart and look at SBs we can kinda get one read on Tomlin's performance. Then we can have separate set of parameters that give us a read on Tomlin's overall playoff performance when the team does make a playoff run. Then there is a third set of criteria that we can evaluate Tomlin on from seasons where the team failed to qualify for the playoffs. While I realize (and fully acknowledge in case I didn't do so clearly) that it is very necessary (and fun) to evaluate Tomlin across all three categories, I just argue that we (whoever is doing the evaluating) need to be clear on what we are measuring and what we are using as comparisons/standards of evaluation. Otherwise, we all spend a great deal of time and can get unnecessarily angry at each other as we talk past one another.

I think the "stale" argument is an interesting one. I would counter that this was potentially true at other points in Tomlin's career but not now. Why? Roster turnover. Sure there are some old Tomlin hands on the team (Heyward, DeCastro, Ben, and VW) but there are a lot of guys holding key roster spots that really haven't been with Tomlin for more than one contract cycle. Not sure if you can go stale in 3 years or less. Now...if we extend the argument that Tomlin is complacent...and isn't really doing much anymore....maybe? But I would argue that Mike McCarthy's ouster in Green Bay is a fairly reasonable barometer for what that looks like - a head coach mailing it in. Perhaps because of where I live and being inundated with Packers news, I feel that I do not hear the type of locker room and interview comments that came out of late-stage McCarthy teams with any of Tomlin's teams.

[ETL]

Yeah, I'd hate to jump the gun with a hasty decision after only 14 years...

Hypnotic boobs or not, I have to disagree with you. Do you ever think it is justified to second guess or criticize a Steelers' decision?

You’re a noob. I have been very vocal against retaining Ben but they kept him and I’m not happy about it. But I don’t think HC is a problem. You obviously disagree. But it’s not a reason to judge me and accuse me of agreeing with everything the Steelers do

[86WARD]

So I am curious.

Simply...

What season(s) did Tomlin prevent the Steelers from winning the Super Bowl that they should have won?

Don’t need a lengthy explanation. Maybe just the year(s) and a sentence as to why they should have won the Super Bowl.

[W&M_Steeler]

You’re a noob. I have been very vocal against retaining Ben but they kept him and I’m not happy about it. But I don’t think HC is a problem. You obviously disagree. But it’s not a reason to judge me and accuse me of agreeing with everything the Steelers do

I'm not judging you, and I am not trying to insult or offend you (sorry if I did), I'm just questioning your implication that if someone disagrees with the Steelers' decision on this extension, they should go root for Washington or the Browns. You didn't leave much room for nuance there, and it seemed pretty judgmental to me. Besides, your logic could be turned against you on Ben. Why shouldn't we be thankful for the Steelers' patient consistent ways and be glad they extended Ben? And why shouldn't those who disagree go root for Washington? You could get your new QB fix every 2 or 3 years, and sometimes after one year. The answer: because you have reasons why you disagree with the Steelers on that issue. That doesn't mean you should go root for some other team. Same with me on the Tomlin extension.

[Dissolv]

What it comes down to is: Why were the Steelers not as successful as we wanted? I'll leave aside the "should have been" statements because those are unsupportable. Were we really better than KC last year? Tampa? I mean we might have won over either of those two teams, but I would not have given a straight 50/50 shot for either.

So why do we think that Tomlin specifically is the piece of the puzzle that needs to be removed? Players can be evaluated on how they execute plays, and Ben has been inconsistent for years. A fact explained by age, knee injuries, and a nagging elbow injury. The defense has also given up a ton of points in quite a few games, including the loss to the Browns last year.

I'm not up for the simple reduction of "team didn't win, coach must go" train of thought. It is way too basic. You have to find a way to evaluate the coach, the players, the scheme, and even the organization in a way independent from each other. This is difficult as fans, and since we can't see the work the coach puts in, the mind tends to fill in the blanks. Right now I've got no specific reason why I should think that Tomlin was specifically responsible for post season collapses and the other aspects of the team were not. Now I would buy into the concept that if you can't sort it out, blow it up. Again, some teams do that. But that has never been the Steelers way, so me calling for it as a fan is just kinda.....dumb. We all know they aren't going to do that 99/100 years. And frankly they do a great job of putting a good team on field year in and year out, without benefit of high draft picks -- ever.

So that brings us back to what exactly would put them over the top? Can we even figure that out from the vantage point of fans, i.e. outside the building? This isn't a sport where you get 82 games per season. The team has very limited time to peak, things have to go just right, injuries are a massive part of the game, and sometimes your opponents are just on a roll when you are banged up physically from playing in the AFC North. It happens. The magical alchemy that makes a winning season is one of the great things about the sport, plus "any given Sunday".

Maybe it would help if what another coach would have done differently, and I mean specifically, could be pointed out. I mean like any coach, living or dead. What would 1970 Noll have done differently with the 2017 team that would have resulted in a deep playoff run? At least getting past the Jags? I mean normally 42 points is a sure win, but not this time. :-( That kind of thing. Then at least we could know what people think Tomlin is doing wrong (or right). Right now it seems like a very poor analysis of the Steelers playoff woes -- which are quite real, It's just mumble mumble blame Tomlin. Why not blame Ben? The running game? Colbert? Specifics would go a long way here, is all I am saying.

[W&M_Steeler]

So I am curious.

Simply...

What season(s) did Tomlin prevent the Steelers from winning the Super Bowl that they should have won?

Don’t need a lengthy explanation. Maybe just the year(s) and a sentence as to why they should have won the Super Bowl.

If you're asking me, I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to say "The Steelers definitely would have won a Super Bowl in year X but for Tomlin's decision." But I think there were years where coaching contributed to the team achieving less than they should have. I already went through my thoughts on this in some detail earlier in the thread, so I'll be brief here:

I think 2014 and 2018 were huge missed opportunities for the Steelers, and I think coaching played a significant role in the Steelers' disappointing finishes these years.

-But for losses to the 2-14 Buc and the 4-12 Jets, the 2014 Steelers would have had a bye week (and possibly had a healthy Le'veon, as the Bengals game in week 17 might have been meaningless). That, combined with the mystifying decision to cut Blount early in the season and not find a replacement for him all year put the Steelers in position to lose. 2014 was Ben's prime. This team, with a decent RB in the backfield (not Ben Tate signed three days before the game) and with the benefit of a bye, could have been tough in the playoffs.

-2018 collapse was terrible, and took a team in the running for a bye and put them out of the playoffs. To much inconsistency, too many games in cruise control against bottom feeder opponents. This team beat the eventual Super Bowl Champion Pats and took the NFC #1 Seed Saints to the wire in NO despite home cooking from the refs- they should have been a real contender in the playoffs. Instead, they blew leads and squandered wins against the Browns, Broncos, and Raiders. The Raiders game in particular featured bad clock management at the end of the game.

While not as bad as 2014 and 2018, I put some blame on the coaches for 2017. Losing Shazier was a horrible blow, and the D was further hampered by some draft busts at the time, but the D was probably as bad in 2017 as it was in 2003. There was really nothing that could have been done to shore it up just a little? And while the Jags were a tough match-up for the Steelers, the Steelers wouldn't have had to play them in the Divisional had the Steelers taken care of business against the 5-11 Bears earlier in the season. Mike Glennon is the Tomlin slayer, and dropping games to bottom feeders has hurt Steelers' seeding the entire decade. It was a shame to waste that offense, the only year that Ben, Bell, Brown, and Bryant were all able to play in the playoffs.

I think the team underperformed in 2012 and 2020- 2012 by dropping the customary two games to bottom feeders, thereby missing the playoffs due to tie-breakers, and 2020 by the complete collapse in the last third of the season- but I don't think they were real Super Bowl contenders those years so they don't sting as much.

[W&M_Steeler]

I'm not up for the simple reduction of "team didn't win, coach must go" train of thought. It is way too basic. You have to find a way to evaluate the coach, the players, the scheme, and even the organization in a way independent from each other. This is difficult as fans, and since we can't see the work the coach puts in, the mind tends to fill in the blanks. Right now I've got no specific reason why I should think that Tomlin was specifically responsible for post season collapses and the other aspects of the team were not.

No one rational is saying that Tomlin is solely responsible for the team's underperformance (as some see it) over the past decade. The argument is that Tomlin, as head coach, is ultimately responsible for the team's results and that the past decade gives some indication that he no longer has what it takes to lead a Super Bowl team, or in most cases even a team that can win a playoff game. Does he get coach for life status because he's a good coach and good guy who's probably not going to preside over a terrible stretch of seasons? Or do the Steelers take a chance and try to shake things up like they did when they encouraged Noll to retire, or like the Bucs did when they replaced Dungy, or even like the Steelers did when bringing in Tomlin (albeit with Cowher's decision)? It's human nature- many people in secure positions for long periods of time get complacent, especially if they have already reached the highest level of success possible for their roles. You make great points about us not really knowing what's going on. All I am saying is that from an outsiders perspective, 2018 and 2020 had times where the team and coaching staff just seemed complacent, sluggish with no fire, going through the motions. I think it's a tough call, and I think there are good arguments on both sides. I would not have issued an extension based on what I see, but maybe I would think differently if I were in the room.


Maybe it would help if what another coach would have done differently, and I mean specifically, could be pointed out. I mean like any coach, living or dead. What would 1970 Noll have done differently with the 2017 team that would have resulted in a deep playoff run? At least getting past the Jags? I mean normally 42 points is a sure win, but not this time. :-( That kind of thing. Then at least we could know what people think Tomlin is doing wrong (or right). Right now it seems like a very poor analysis of the Steelers playoff woes -- which are quite real, It's just mumble mumble blame Tomlin. Why not blame Ben? The running game? Colbert? Specifics would go a long way here, is all I am saying.

I'm no Xs and Os genius, so I can't provide a specific scheme or coverage or personnel grouping that would have been better in the Jacksonville game than what they used. Did they use the best possible scheme given the circumstances? Maybe they did. Maybe the Jags were just a bad match for the Steelers. My answer to what they could have done better in 2017- not have lost to the Bears earlier in the season so they wouldn't have had to play the Jags.

That gets to my underlying problem with the Tomlin era. I get "any given Sunday," but it's ridiculous how many times the Steelers have lost to teams that finished the season 5-11 or worse over the past decade. But even when the Steelers beat the bottom feeders, it's usually a close game. It's never a good sign to see the Steelers favored by double digits, because it means they're probably going to come in flat. The Mike Glennons and the Jeff Driskells and the Ryan Finleys and the Garrett Gilberts of the world routinely give this team fits, and they have for years. Losing to bottom feeders turns bye weeks into Wild Card round berths, and Wild Card round berths into missing the playoffs. The more playoff games you need to play, the less likely you are to make it to the Super Bowl (and of course you can't make it at all if you miss the playoffs entirely). When this happens year in and year out, you have to at least wonder what role the coaching staff plays in these let downs. I would like to see a more consistent level of effort from the Steelers, and I'd like to see them blow out a team starting a 3rd string QB every once in awhile.

[fansince'76]

It's just mumble mumble blame Tomlin.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/villainstournament/images/4/45/Muttley-yogis-treasure-hunt-53.6.jpg

mumble, mumble...Rire Romlin!...mumble, mumble...

:chuckle:

[W&M_Steeler]

I think the "stale" argument is an interesting one. I would counter that this was potentially true at other points in Tomlin's career but not now. Why? Roster turnover. Sure there are some old Tomlin hands on the team (Heyward, DeCastro, Ben, and VW) but there are a lot of guys holding key roster spots that really haven't been with Tomlin for more than one contract cycle. Not sure if you can go stale in 3 years or less. Now...if we extend the argument that Tomlin is complacent...and isn't really doing much anymore....maybe? But I would argue that Mike McCarthy's ouster in Green Bay is a fairly reasonable barometer for what that looks like - a head coach mailing it in. Perhaps because of where I live and being inundated with Packers news, I feel that I do not hear the type of locker room and interview comments that came out of late-stage McCarthy teams with any of Tomlin's teams.

Good reference to McCarthy in Green Bay. I don't think it's as bad as that with Tomlin (I haven't heard about Tomlin delegating meetings so he could go get massages or watch tv or the other things McCarthy was accused of doing), but I do get whiffs of complacency, usually when the Steelers come out and struggle against (and often lose to) terrible teams, especially when those terrible teams are riddled with injuries and are starting back-ups. The point about player turnover is interesting- Tomlin's message won't be stale to the new guys. But when I say "stale" I am more concerned with internal complacency. As I mention in another post, I think there's a risk that people in secure positions who have already reached the top can get complacent and lose their fire. I'm concerned that the "good enough" has become the enemy of the "great". Also, organizations can become susceptible to group think. I think this was a big problem recently, with the Steelers' coaching staff turning into the Arkansas State club. I'm not in the room, so don't know for sure, but it seemed like that staff wasn't chosen because they were the best hires out there. It reeked of the old boy's club. I am glad to see Fichtner go, and I think Butler probably should have been swapped out for someone with a fresh vision.

[Mojouw]

Good reference to McCarthy in Green Bay. I don't think it's as bad as that with Tomlin (I haven't heard about Tomlin delegating meetings so he could go get massages or watch tv or the other things McCarthy was accused of doing), but I do get whiffs of complacency, usually when the Steelers come out and struggle against (and often lose to) terrible teams, especially when those terrible teams are riddled with injuries and are starting back-ups. The point about player turnover is interesting- Tomlin's message won't be stale to the new guys. But when I say "stale" I am more concerned with internal complacency. As I mention in another post, I think there's a risk that people in secure positions who have already reached the top can get complacent and lose their fire. Also, organizations can become susceptible to group think. I think this was a big problem recently, with the Steelers' coaching staff turning into the Arkansas State club. I'm not in the room, so don't know for sure, but it seemed like that staff wasn't chosen because they were the best hires out there. It reeked of the old boy's club. I am glad to see Fichtner go, and I think Butler probably should have been swapped out for someone with a fresh vision.

The demotion of Butler and the continued influence of Austin and Tomlin would seem to indicate that things have and are changing on the defensive side of the ball. The development of Watt and Dupree and hopefully Highsmith likely keeps Butler and Dunbar around and the increase in effeciency and turnovers likely keeps Austin-Tomlin more in control of the defense.

On offense, Fichtner was hired to placate the franchise QB and make the offense more efficient and streamline from the weird game-day playcalling of Haley. And for one glorious year, he did exactly that. Then the wheels came off due to injury in 2019 and the fact that Ben wasn't able to do "Ben things" in 2020. Fichtner's offense (if you want to call it that) requires hitting on chunk plays both over the middle and along the sideline to back the defense off and make all those hitches, screens, and wide run plays have space to happen in. Or at least that is how I see it. When (post the Ravens game and definitely after the WFT game) NFL defenses realized that the Steelers of 2020 were not the "big passing play" team they used to be, teams squished the field down and the offense fell apart. Part of that is because Ben was not good in 2020 and part of that was because Butler had no answers to difficult questions. So Butler gets fired and Ben gets another rodeo. Plus, it is pretty clear that Tomlin (or someone) was already trying to innovate and change on offense or Canada would have never been let in the building.

I think the coaches were in place too long narrative is a great one to debate and makes for really solid talk radio and blog posts on the internet. I think it is harder to connect that in tangible ways to actual on the field performance. The way I always see it done is that Butler is a moron because he played zone against the Patriots and they lost. Ok. Fine. Many other NFL teams played zone against the Patriots. A great deal of the time. Additionally, look at the DBs and LBs on the roster for many of those losses. They were not capable of playing single man coverages. Over a several year cycle, the defensive roster turned over and the Steelers got flexible DBs capable of playing a variety of coverage styles. Almost certainly not coincidentally, the defense got better. Like Parcells always said...you can only cook the meal you have the groceries for.

[W&M_Steeler]

The demotion of Butler and the continued influence of Austin and Tomlin would seem to indicate that things have and are changing on the defensive side of the ball. The development of Watt and Dupree and hopefully Highsmith likely keeps Butler and Dunbar around and the increase in effeciency and turnovers likely keeps Austin-Tomlin more in control of the defense.

On offense, Fichtner was hired to placate the franchise QB and make the offense more efficient and streamline from the weird game-day playcalling of Haley. And for one glorious year, he did exactly that. Then the wheels came off due to injury in 2019 and the fact that Ben wasn't able to do "Ben things" in 2020. Fichtner's offense (if you want to call it that) requires hitting on chunk plays both over the middle and along the sideline to back the defense off and make all those hitches, screens, and wide run plays have space to happen in. Or at least that is how I see it. When (post the Ravens game and definitely after the WFT game) NFL defenses realized that the Steelers of 2020 were not the "big passing play" team they used to be, teams squished the field down and the offense fell apart. Part of that is because Ben was not good in 2020 and part of that was because Butler had no answers to difficult questions. So Butler gets fired and Ben gets another rodeo. Plus, it is pretty clear that Tomlin (or someone) was already trying to innovate and change on offense or Canada would have never been let in the building.

I think the coaches were in place too long narrative is a great one to debate and makes for really solid talk radio and blog posts on the internet. I think it is harder to connect that in tangible ways to actual on the field performance. The way I always see it done is that Butler is a moron because he played zone against the Patriots and they lost. Ok. Fine. Many other NFL teams played zone against the Patriots. A great deal of the time. Additionally, look at the DBs and LBs on the roster for many of those losses. They were not capable of playing single man coverages. Over a several year cycle, the defensive roster turned over and the Steelers got flexible DBs capable of playing a variety of coverage styles. Almost certainly not coincidentally, the defense got better. Like Parcells always said...you can only cook the meal you have the groceries for.

I am not sure that Fichtner can be entirely pinned on Ben- he was Tomlin's old colleague. Tomlin brought Fichtner to the Steelers as WR coach in 2007. I have a hard time believing Tomlin didn't think he was a good fit, and I wonder how much outside search they did before promoting Fichtner from inside. I also think everyone was ready for Todd "Tequila Cowboy" Haley to hit the road.

I agree with you that the defensive personnel mid-decade were substandard. The 2017 team would have looked much better had Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, Senquez Golson, and Sean Davis all turned out to be good starters and had Bud Dupree been a bit swifter on the development curve. Throw in losing Shazier permanently and you have a stalled defensive rebuild that hurt the team in the middle of the decade. How much is Colbert to blame, how much are Tomlin / Butler to blame, and how much just came down to bad luck? I don't know how that question could be resolved.

[Mojouw]

I am not sure that Fichtner can be entirely pinned on Ben- he was Tomlin's old colleague. Tomlin brought Fichtner to the Steelers as WR coach in 2007. I have a hard time believing Tomlin didn't think he was a good fit, and I wonder how much outside search they did before promoting Fichtner from inside. I also think everyone was ready for Todd "Tequila Cowboy" Haley to hit the road.

I agree with you that the defensive personnel mid-decade were substandard. The 2017 team would have looked much better had Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, Senquez Golson, and Sean Davis all turned out to be good starters and had Bud Dupree been a bit swifter on the development curve. Throw in losing Shazier permanently and you have a stalled defensive rebuild that hurt the team in the middle of the decade. How much is Colbert to blame, how much are Tomlin / Butler to blame, and how much just came down to bad luck? I don't know how that question could be resolved.

I think Fichtner got in the door on the strength of his personal connection with Tomlin - a fairly typical way to get coaching jobs. Then, i think he stuck around and rose through the ranks based on the fact that the franchise QB loved him some Randy Fichtner. Unless Ben is/was lying for years across several interviews, he got along with Randy better than anyone since Clement.

[W&M_Steeler]

I think Fichtner got in the door on the strength of his personal connection with Tomlin - a fairly typical way to get coaching jobs. Then, i think he stuck around and rose through the ranks based on the fact that the franchise QB loved him some Randy Fichtner. Unless Ben is/was lying for years across several interviews, he got along with Randy better than anyone since Clement.

I am sure Ben liked him too. Tomlin liked him, Ben liked him, Rooney probably liked him, so why look outside and possibly rock the boat with a new hire that doesn't quite fit the culture when you can promote from within? Pretty lazy and complacent for an organization in a field as competitive as the NFL if that's the way it went down. I think Ben has likely contributed to that culture too. I wonder if any other team would have hired Fichtner as OC had he been a "free agent" prior to the 2018 season.

[Mojouw]

I am sure Ben liked him too. Tomlin liked him, Ben liked him, Rooney probably liked him, so why look outside and possibly rock the boat with a new hire that doesn't quite fit the culture when you can promote from within? Pretty lazy and complacent for an organization in a field as competitive as the NFL if that's the way it went down. I think Ben has likely contributed to that culture too. I wonder if any other team would have hired Fichtner as OC had he been a "free agent" prior to the 2018 season.

We will never know. I really don't have a problem with a team catering to their franchise QB. Happens year in and year out across the league. Until it does "bad" then you either dump the QB or push a new coach on him. Like GB did with Rodgers and whatever his name is that doesn't go for it on 4th downs. And like Steelers did with Haley and now Canada. The other option is to keep pissing in your franchise QB's cheerios like the Seahawks are doing. They are gonna mess around and Wilson is gonna split.

We will never really know for sure, but there is a tale to tell about what was Fichtner and what was Ben for the Steelers offense. By all reports available, Ben doesn't like motion, play-action, being under center anymore, and a slew of other things that around the NFL are making QBs jobs easier and offenses more efficient. So was Fichtner a full on dum-dum or was he a one legged man in ass-kicking contest because too much authority/control had been ceded to the QB?

Honestly, I could see either being true. Like most things in life, some sort of middle case is likely what happened. Ben was stubborn and Randy was not good.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Is the Steelers' Mike Tomlin on a path that could lead to Canton? It sure looks like it

Mike Tomlin hasn't had a losing season in 14 years of NFL head coaching. That puts him in rarified air.

CLARK JUDGEA
APR 21, 2021

When people today talk about NFL coaches on a Hall-of-Fame trajectory, they start with Bill Belichick, move to Andy Reid and might throw in a Pete Carroll or Sean Payton. Fair enough. Nine Lombardi Trophies and 15 Super Bowl appearances are in there.

But how come almost nobody includes the Steelers' Mike Tomlin?

He’s won a Super Bowl like Reid, Carroll and Payton. He’s been to two, like Carroll. And he’s never had a losing season … unlike Reid, Carroll, Payton and Belichick. You can look it up. In 14 NFL seasons of head coaching he never finished worse than 8-8.

Unusual? Nope. More like unheard of. Only Marty Schottenheimer went 14 straight non-losing seasons after becoming a head coach, and his first year was really a half season (4-4).

Granted, Tomlin’s 153 victories (including playoffs) aren’t close to Belichick (311) and Reid (238), but the guy just turned 49, for crying out loud. Plus, his total is only three behind Carroll (156) and one ahead of Payton (152).

Now look at his overall winning percentage. It’s .640, better than Reid (.621), better than Carroll (.600) and better than Payton (.631). In fact, it’s so good that he trails only Belichick (.678) among active coaches with 100 or more games. What’s more, his .650 regular-season percentage (145-78-1) ranks 11th all-time.

One more thing: He has as many Super Bowl victories and appearances as his predecessor in Pittsburgh, Bill Cowher.

I mention that because Cowher was one of two coaches named to the Pro Football Hall-of-Fame’s Centennial Class of 2020. Including the playoffs, Cowher won 161 games, or eight more than Tomlin, and eight division titles … or one more than Tomlin. He also produced nine seasons with double-digit victories. But so has Tomlin. And while Cowher’s overall winning percentage of .623 is good, it’s not as good as Mike Tomlin’s.

to read rest of article:

https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/mike-tomlin-and-hall-of-fame

[Dissolv]

Does he get coach for life status because he's a good coach and good guy who's probably not going to preside over a terrible stretch of seasons? Or do the Steelers take a chance and try to shake things up like they did when they encouraged Noll to retire, or like the Bucs did when they replaced Dungy, or even like the Steelers did when bringing in Tomlin

Neither. That's kind of my point. A prudent move is to break out the components of a team and a season and determine what worked, and what went wrong. They won't keep Tomlin, or any other coach (or player for that matter) because they are "good" or a "good guy". They will evaluate overall needs, what was responsible for victory and defeat, and what can they upgrade -- and for what cost.

I'm 99% sure that the internal evaluation is that they believe that Tomlin wasn't the component of the team that cost them playoff runs. Also that they likely can't upgrade Tomlin with any measure of certainty. Likely a replacement would be a downgrade, or just a temporary breath of fresh air that quickly goes stale.

What I don't see here is any reasonable way to judge the performance of a head coach from the fan point of view other than "we have a great team and should have done better." With a player you can at least go to the stats and have (sometimes) an idea about responsibilities on the field for blown plays. Sometimes it is easy because you see it all. Pouncey hikes the ball over the head of his QB -- easily 95% of that is on Pouncey. Other times you actually can't tell which defender had which assignment, you only know that there was a miscommunication.

But I can't see whatever the coaches are doing within the facility, and I don't know if Tomlin is doing something wrong, the OC has a crazy scheme in the first place, the players didn't execute properly despite coaching, or if the players given to the team by Colbert and Epps just weren't up to NFL standards. And of course, the other team gets a say in how successful any given play is.

So what do I do? Always fire the coach because he is in charge (he isn't, the ownership is)? Or do we break things down and try to figure out where we need to change and get better? I see the Steelers taking more of that approach, and also not attributing the losses to Tomlin. Sometimes as a fan I also blame Tomlin for stuff. Bad clock management, poor challenges, and so on. But if you see something that the Steelers don't, I'm all for hearing it. But so far the entire sum of the argument has been "not enough playoff wins in the last decade, ditch coach". I'm pretty sure he bears part of the blame, but is he the correct piece of the puzzle to replace to actually get better? Not so sure it is as simple as all that.

[Steeler-in-west]

Last year the problems were mainly on the offensive side of the ball. The Steelers addressed that with a new OC and line coach but kept Ben. That’s where they identified part of the immediate problem. The other part of the problem was - will be solved through FA and draft. It’s obvious that the problem isn’t all on player execution, at least a good chunk was on coaching. The coordinators are responsible for making the players play to the best of their ability, the head coach is responsible to make sure that happens (he’s also responsible for direct teaching too). Hopefully the change in coordinators and line coach along with a better running game will produce better results than last year. if there’s lack of improvement followed by a few bad to mediocre years, whether Rudolph or someone else is the QB. it will catch up to the head coach, it always does. Tomlin will have about 20 years by then (happened to Scottenheimer even Noll). I think the only thing that would prolong Tomlin’s career would be to get another franchise Ben level QB

[fansince'76]

Or do the Steelers take a chance and try to shake things up like they did when they encouraged Noll to retire, or like the Bucs did when they replaced Dungy...

If anything, a Super Bowl victory by Gruden with what was essentially Dungy's team against his former team (who literally didn't change a thing after Gruden departed the previous season) followed by an extremely rapid return to being a perennial sub-.500 team and a perpetual head coach merry-go-round for the next decade-and-a-half afterwards kinda bolsters the argument to keep Tomlin around for a little while longer, IMO.

I think it's quite safe to say in retrospect that Gruden did not improve team culture in Tampa Bay. And team culture seems to be one of the biggest reasons that people want to see the Steelers cut ties with Tomlin.

[teegre]

If anything, a Super Bowl victory by Gruden with what was essentially Dungy's team against his former team (who literally didn't change a thing after Gruden departed the previous season) followed by an extremely rapid return to being a perennial sub-.500 team and a perpetual head coach merry-go-round for the next decade-and-a-half afterwards kinda bolsters the argument to keep Tomlin around for a little while longer, IMO.

I think it's quite safe to say in retrospect that Gruden did not improve team culture in Tampa Bay. And team culture seems to be one of the biggest reasons that people want to see the Steelers cut ties with Tomlin.

And, the Bucs won that Super Bowl due to the advanced coverages used by their secondary, coverages which confused Rich Gannon & caused him to throw four INTs. The secondary coach for the Bucs was... (dramatic pause)... Mike Tomlin.

[Steel Peon]

How many of you had ever heard of Tomlin before he was hired? Are you seriously saying there's no one in the world better than Tomlin than Belichick?
This was a point I've used in conversation many times, and I would bet that scarcely 1% of all Steelers fans and experts even mentioned his name when hypothesizing about who the next head coach should be. When he was first hired he had a pretty steep learning curve going from DC to HC, and his in-game decisions immediately fell well below the standard his predecessor set, but the thought was these things would improve over time. Well they didn't improve, never have, and never will, coupled with his inability to control certain players from making asses out of themselves, and general personnel decisions, are the things I don't like about him. As far as who could replace Tomlin, I would never say Belichick because I can't stand that piece of shit or anyone ever associated with him, and would cease to be a football fan if we ever hired him. Rather, I would just use the same process that hired Tomlin and Cowher (or anyone applying for any job really), which is to have interviews and pick the best candidate. This will never be my decision to make, so I just have to hope that Art II knows something beyond what I see on TV.

[DesertSteel]

How many had heard of the 14 head coaches that the Browns have hired over the past 5 years? The idea that you can just hire some nobody that’s unknown and end up with one of the best W/L records in football is just asinine.

[W&M_Steeler]

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by fansince'76 http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php?p=767044#post767044)
If anything, a Super Bowl victory by Gruden with what was essentially Dungy's team against his former team (who literally didn't change a thing after Gruden departed the previous season) followed by an extremely rapid return to being a perennial sub-.500 team and a perpetual head coach merry-go-round for the next decade-and-a-half afterwards kinda bolsters the argument to keep Tomlin around for a little while longer, IMO.

I think it's quite safe to say in retrospect that Gruden did not improve team culture in Tampa Bay. And team culture seems to be one of the biggest reasons that people want to see the Steelers cut ties with Tomlin


And, the Bucs won that Super Bowl due to the advanced coverages used by their secondary, coverages which confused Rich Gannon & caused him to throw four INTs. The secondary coach for the Bucs was... (dramatic pause)... Mike Tomlin.

Personally, I'd rather have a 5 year stretch with 1 SB win and 4 losing seasons than I would have 5 seasons, none worse than 8-8 regular season (though 2 featuring a late season collapse), in which the Steelers make the Wild Card round 4 times and the Divisional once. Different philosophies I guess.

No doubt about it, Tomlin was a fantastic hire in 2007. He was innovative, cutting edge, hungry, and passionate- 15 years ago. I'm not sure he hits all those qualifications circa 2021. He's had a good run here, though I think he's had diminishing returns lately and in some respects has underachieved. We know what we're going to get with Tomlin. Do you want to stick with good / very good, or would you want to take a risk to try to find someone who is able to spark the team to greatness (like Tomlin did from 2007-2010)? The question is probably less important because the team is on the verge of a total offensive rebuild and I doubt any coach could go very far with them with them. Maybe they want a steady hand to oversee the rebuild, which makes sense.

[W&M_Steeler]

Neither. That's kind of my point. A prudent move is to break out the components of a team and a season and determine what worked, and what went wrong. They won't keep Tomlin, or any other coach (or player for that matter) because they are "good" or a "good guy". They will evaluate overall needs, what was responsible for victory and defeat, and what can they upgrade -- and for what cost.

I'm 99% sure that the internal evaluation is that they believe that Tomlin wasn't the component of the team that cost them playoff runs. Also that they likely can't upgrade Tomlin with any measure of certainty. Likely a replacement would be a downgrade, or just a temporary breath of fresh air that quickly goes stale.

What I don't see here is any reasonable way to judge the performance of a head coach from the fan point of view other than "we have a great team and should have done better." With a player you can at least go to the stats and have (sometimes) an idea about responsibilities on the field for blown plays. Sometimes it is easy because you see it all. Pouncey hikes the ball over the head of his QB -- easily 95% of that is on Pouncey. Other times you actually can't tell which defender had which assignment, you only know that there was a miscommunication.

But I can't see whatever the coaches are doing within the facility, and I don't know if Tomlin is doing something wrong, the OC has a crazy scheme in the first place, the players didn't execute properly despite coaching, or if the players given to the team by Colbert and Epps just weren't up to NFL standards. And of course, the other team gets a say in how successful any given play is.

So what do I do? Always fire the coach because he is in charge (he isn't, the ownership is)? Or do we break things down and try to figure out where we need to change and get better? I see the Steelers taking more of that approach, and also not attributing the losses to Tomlin. Sometimes as a fan I also blame Tomlin for stuff. Bad clock management, poor challenges, and so on. But if you see something that the Steelers don't, I'm all for hearing it. But so far the entire sum of the argument has been "not enough playoff wins in the last decade, ditch coach". I'm pretty sure he bears part of the blame, but is he the correct piece of the puzzle to replace to actually get better? Not so sure it is as simple as all that.

Agreed, no one here has better knowledge of the team than the Steelers organization themselves. But we're not totally ignorant, either- we see the product, we have some understanding of football and how it should be played (it's not theoretical physics or something so esoteric that lay people can't hope to comprehend), so we can have opinions (albeit less informed opinions). In general, we're more likely to be wrong in our opinions when compared to the organization due to our relative lack of information, but sometimes outsiders, who are unburdened by internal considerations, group think, and emotions stemming from having a personal relationship with the people being discussed, have insights that the insiders can't / don't. In other words, the less informed opinion isn't always the wrong opinion.

If you don't think fans can have legitimate opinions about coaching because (1) we don't know what happens at the facility and (2) we can't judge coaching based on the results of what happens on the field, then you're essentially saying that we as fans shouldn't have an opinion on coaching at all because we aren't qualified to hold one. That's one way to look at it, I guess, but it makes chatting on football message boards seem like even a bigger waste of time than it already does :lol:

[Mojouw]

I am wondering how Tomlin was innovative? Tomlin is a great deal of things...but innovative?

He came in and ran the same offense and defense with the same roster. I know he changed motivation tactics, practice regimes, and was more aggressive in-game....but what were his innovations?

If anything...Tomlin has innovated MORE the past handful of seasons as he has finally implemented HIS version of the defense and oversaw moving the offense to a full spread 'em out approach...

[pczach]

Personally, I'd rather have a 5 year stretch with 1 SB win and 4 losing seasons than I would have 5 seasons, none worse than 8-8 regular season (though 2 featuring a late season collapse), in which the Steelers make the Wild Card round 4 times and the Divisional once. Different philosophies I guess.





That's the part of your argument that doesn't make sense. If Tomlin or any coach was having losing seasons over and over again, there is nothing that tells you that the man can coach....and he'd be fired. It's easy to say what you would take for a 5 year stretch in hindsight, but that wouldn't work in reality. The coach would never survive....and frankly, it the team performed that badly over an extended period of time with mostly the same talent....there's no way in hell they win a Super Bowl with that coach at the helm.

That's just common sense.

[teegre]

I am wondering how Tomlin was innovative? Tomlin is a great deal of things...but innovative?

He came in and ran the same offense and defense with the same roster. I know he changed motivation tactics, practice regimes, and was more aggressive in-game....but what were his innovations?

If anything...Tomlin has innovated MORE the past handful of seasons as he has finally implemented HIS version of the defense and oversaw moving the offense to a full spread 'em out approach...

Before Super Bowl XLIII, the defense was dogging it (during practice) after one of them got an INT. Tomlin laid into them... and made them practice returns (as a team) over & over & over. He cited the Buccaneers Super Bowl during his tirade... about how "When you get an INT, you SCORE."

We all know about Harrison's return.

Troy has stated that those repetitions during practice led directly to Harrison's success on that return. (Yes, it was mostly Harrison, but if you watch, you can see 10 other guys busting their asses, as well.)

[Mojouw]

Before Super Bowl XLIII, the defense was dogging it (during practice) after one of them got an INT. Tomlin laid into them... and made them practice returns (as a team) over & over & over. He cited the Buccaneers Super Bowl during his tirade... about how "When you get an INT, you SCORE."

We all know about Harrison's return.

Troy has stated that those repetitions during practice led directly to Harrison's success on that return. (Yes, it was mostly Harrison, but if you watch, you can see 10 other guys busting their asses, as well.)

Agreed, 100%. That is kinda what I meant on practice regimes and motivation stuff.

But, I took innovation to mean like some fancy-schmancy X's and O's thing. And I have never felt that was Tomlin. And that is fine. I always felt that Tomlin was running similar "stuff" to everyone else, but just demanding that his guys run it faster and better.

I read an interview once with one of the current (or former) Steelers defensive coaches. Said that during games in real-time Tomlin could diagnose why the offense was succeeding down to the technique of individual defensive players. I always have seen that as Tomlin's biggest strength. This is what Player X was intended to do on play A. This is what you failed to execute correctly. Here is how to fix it. Now go get it done and if not, I have a guy on the bench that I will totally replace you with next series.

[teegre]

I read an interview once with one of the current (or former) Steelers defensive coaches. Said that during games in real-time Tomlin could diagnose why the offense was succeeding down to the technique of individual defensive players. I always have seen that as Tomlin's biggest strength. This is what Player X was intended to do on play A. This is what you failed to execute correctly. Here is how to fix it. Now go get it done and if not, I have a guy on the bench that I will totally replace you with next series.

Case in point. Chiefs playoff game. Sean Davis gives up a TD. The Chiefs are a 2-point conversion away from tying the game. Sean Davis is mortified.

During that time out, Tomlin pulls Davis aside and talks to him the ENTIRE time. When the snap comes, Davis breaks up the two-point conversion, sealing the victory. What was said?... we shall never know. We do know that Reid is smart enough to target Davis, and we also know that Tomlin was smart enough to know who to talk to (Davis) and what to say to him to make him a better player (even if it was simply for one play).

Note: I have heard tales from Ike (Taylor) and Ryan (Clark) about similar conversations that Tomlin has had with them.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Case in point. Chiefs playoff game. Sean Davis gives up a TD. The Chiefs are a 2-point conversion away from tying the game. Sean Davis is mortified.

During that time out, Tomlin pulls Davis aside and talks to him the ENTIRE time. When the snap comes, Davis breaks up the two-point conversion, sealing the victory. What was said?... we shall never know. We do know that Reid is smart enough to target Davis, and we also know that Tomlin was smart enough to know who to talk to (Davis) and what to say to him to make him a better player (even if it was simply for one play).

Note: I have heard tales from Ike (Taylor) and Ryan (Clark) about similar conversations that Tomlin has had with them.

I wish Tomlin would have talked to his defensive players more in the Browns game then.

though he probably would have needed to call the entire defense over.

[DesertSteel]

That's the part of your argument that doesn't make sense. If Tomlin or any coach was having losing seasons over and over again, there is nothing that tells you that the man can coach....and he'd be fired. It's easy to say what you would take for a 5 year stretch in hindsight, but that wouldn't work in reality. The coach would never survive....and frankly, it the team performed that badly over an extended period of time with mostly the same talent....there's no way in hell they win a Super Bowl with that coach at the helm.

That's just common sense.
But in an imaginary world you can create all these scenarios!

[86WARD]

That's the part of your argument that doesn't make sense. If Tomlin or any coach was having losing seasons over and over again, there is nothing that tells you that the man can coach....and he'd be fired. It's easy to say what you would take for a 5 year stretch in hindsight, but that wouldn't work in reality. The coach would never survive....and frankly, it the team performed that badly over an extended period of time with mostly the same talent....there's no way in hell they win a Super Bowl with that coach at the helm.

That's just common sense.

What you’re describing is the HC career of Doug Peterson. Didn’t workout well for him...

[BlackAndGold]

I posted after the playoff loss that Tomlin still wasn't going anywhere, despite me believing that he should be on the hot seat due to lack of playoff wins in recent years.

Tomlin is here until he retires.

[Lloydwoodsonjr]

A few weeks back on Twitter, people were posting pictures of actors in different roles (talking about the actor's range and such). Someone posted a picture of Omar Epps from House, in Juice, one from Higher Learning... and a picture of Mike Tomlin. :lol:

The comments were amaaaazing!!!

Epps' username on Reddit is u/notMikeTomlin. I found out when he replied to my comment on a thread about him looking like Mike Tomlin.

[teegre]

Epps' username on Reddit is u/notMikeTomlin. I found out when he replied to my comment on a thread about him looking like Mike Tomlin.

That is awesome. :applaudit: I like when celebrities can have a sense of humor about themselves.