Belichick & Saban: The Art of Coaching

[Six Rings]

Belichick & Saban: The Art of Coaching





I found this fascinating. I did not know the two men were close friends. I found Belichick to the more withdrawn and intellectual of the two and Saban to be the better communicator. To think the Cleveland Browns had both men on the same team.


A few quick takeaways. Both are quick to blame themselves on losses, even if it was just one play, noting if they did XZY or played it this way, they would have won the game. This is something Tomlin has never done.


" Great players can't overcome bad coaching " - Bill Belichick.


A premium is put on attention to details, and both me are quick to see it in practice.


You get to see how they work with their QB's, even Brady is a little reserved going over players in Bilichick's office.


Both coaches understand human motivation and how a loss can help their team. Just watch the doc as they explain why.


Neither man is close to a player's coach.


They have their own database on formations, and results.

[Born2Steel]

I would have no problem, zero issue with this thread IF it were truly about the title and not just another veiled attack on Tomlin. This is really old already.

[tom444]

Belichick & Saban: The Art of Coaching





I found this fascinating. I did not know the two men were close friends. I found Belichick to the more withdrawn and intellectual of the two and Saban to be the better communicator. To think the Cleveland Browns had both men on the same team.


A few quick takeaways. Both are quick to blame themselves on losses, even if it was just one play, noting if they did XZY or played it this way, they would have won the game. This is something Tomlin has never done.


" Great players can't overcome bad coaching " - Bill Belichick.


A premium is put on attention to details, and both me are quick to see it in practice.


You get to see how they work with their QB's, even Brady is a little reserved going over players in Bilichick's office.


Both coaches understand human motivation and how a loss can help their team. Just watch the doc as they explain why.


Neither man is close to a player's coach.


They have their own database on formations, and results.


There's a lot of wisdom in that documentary for young coaches.

[Drazo85]

The art of cheating.

Послато са Mi A1 помоћу Тапатока

[tom444]

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/fa/2f/44/fa2f44f1c882c72b13fafac5437a3374.jpg

[Six Rings]

There's a lot of wisdom in that documentary for young coaches.

Yes and for older coaches too.

[Mojouw]

Despite the fact that this thread is nonsense and starts with a flawed premise; well two actually. The first is that there are only so many ways to win and therefore the methods of these two coaches are a blueprint for success. The second is that any coaches NOT doing what these two are doing is setting themselves up to fail.

We could talk about the numerous articles detailing how the same traits that are lauded in these two have also been the root causes of earlier failures (Billy B pre-Patriots and Saban with the Dolphins). We could talk about the awful stories about Saban and how he treats his players as people/human beings. Assuming any of this is true: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-dolphin-says-nick-saban-walked-over-convulsing-player/ that speaks volumes about who Saban is as a person. Nothing as dramatic as that with Bill B. BUT they did just draft a punter that has a prominent white supremacist tat and multiple Twitter rumblings that the Pats organization is not a "nice" place. Take it as you will.

BUT...since this is all a stalking horse to get to the real goal of the original post and develop a laundry list of Tomlin and other non Mike Munchak current or former Steelers coaches' failures...let's take a counter hypothesis. Winning is very very very important for the leaders of the Pittsburgh Steelers franchise. However, the Rooney wing of the ownership group has an additional set of principles that they will adhere to even above winning - character, integrity, and the ethical treatment of each individual player at a fundamental level. There are stories too numerous to review in the last 5 decades of that being a consistent choice by the members of the Rooney family involved in the team. If you read and listen to how players talk about Tomlin and their relationship with him; it is basically the opposite of how any players have talked about Billy B or Saban. I believe that is a conscious choice by both the Rooney family and Tomlin in what values and styles of interaction they want to put forward.

Am I right? No idea. But it is interesting to think about. Imagine if Mike Tomlin just walked past an injured Shazier -- I gotta figure Rooney fires him.

[polamalubeast]

Despite the fact that this thread is nonsense and starts with a flawed premise; well two actually. The first is that there are only so many ways to win and therefore the methods of these two coaches are a blueprint for success. The second is that any coaches NOT doing what these two are doing is setting themselves up to fail.

We could talk about the numerous articles detailing how the same traits that are lauded in these two have also been the root causes of earlier failures (Billy B pre-Patriots and Saban with the Dolphins). We could talk about the awful stories about Saban and how he treats his players as people/human beings. Assuming any of this is true: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-dolphin-says-nick-saban-walked-over-convulsing-player/ that speaks volumes about who Saban is as a person. Nothing as dramatic as that with Bill B. BUT they did just draft a punter that has a prominent white supremacist tat and multiple Twitter rumblings that the Pats organization is not a "nice" place. Take it as you will.

BUT...since this is all a stalking horse to get to the real goal of the original post and develop a laundry list of Tomlin and other non Mike Munchak current or former Steelers coaches' failures...let's take a counter hypothesis. Winning is very very very important for the leaders of the Pittsburgh Steelers franchise. However, the Rooney wing of the ownership group has an additional set of principles that they will adhere to even above winning - character, integrity, and the ethical treatment of each individual player at a fundamental level. There are stories too numerous to review in the last 5 decades of that being a consistent choice by the members of the Rooney family involved in the team. If you read and listen to how players talk about Tomlin and their relationship with him; it is basically the opposite of how any players have talked about Billy B or Saban. I believe that is a conscious choice by both the Rooney family and Tomlin in what values and styles of interaction they want to put forward.

Am I right? No idea. But it is interesting to think about. Imagine if Mike Tomlin just walked past an injured Shazier -- I gotta figure Rooney fires him.

Good post ... This is one of the reasons why the assistants who were with Belichick before and became HC with other team (like McDaniels, O'Brien, Eric Mangini and Matt Patricia) failed as HC because they were too arrogant..Romeo Crennell was also a failure as HC but it was because he was bad,not because of his arrogance.

The only coach who is able to be successful with Belichick's methods is Bill Belichick ... The others who tried his methods were a big failure ... If I want a new HC, I would check in the coaching staff of Andy Reid first but I would never take a coach with Belichick's methods

[polamalubeast]

Interesting stats

Belichick is 55-63 in his career without Brady ... Tomlin is 17-14 without Ben ... I'm not saying that Tomlin is a better coach than Belichick since this is not the case, but Belichick was not incredible without Brady in his career and Tomlin was able to keep his team competitive without Ben in his career even if he had garbage QB often in his games.

[tom444]

.............. Winning is very very very important for the leaders of the Pittsburgh Steelers franchise. However, the Rooney wing of the ownership group has an additional set of principles that they will adhere to even above winning - character, integrity, and the ethical treatment of each individual player at a fundamental level. There are stories too numerous to review in the last 5 decades of that being a consistent choice by the members of the Rooney family involved in the team. ...............


I think that's a dangerous proposition to award any professional sport team let alone an NFL team.



Ben Roethlisberger's Off-Field Issues Offsetting On-Field Accomplishments

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/377912-ben-roethlisberger-off-field-issues-offsetting-on-field-accomplishments



A timeline of trouble surrounding Antonio Brown

https://nypost.com/2019/09/11/a-timeline-of-trouble-surrounding-antonio-brown/

[Mojouw]

I think that's a dangerous proposition to award any professional sport team let alone an NFL team.





A timeline of trouble surrounding Antonio Brown

https://nypost.com/2019/09/11/a-timeline-of-trouble-surrounding-antonio-brown/


I should have been clearer. I am under no illusion that the Steelers will excuse significant off the field and character concerns from their players - at least highly successful ones. What I was attempting to drive at is the manner with which Saban and Billy B treat people is not the way that the Steelers organization has traditionally encouraged its coaches and management to interact with players. That was more of what I was getting at. There is a certain style and pattern to their interactions with players as people that I do not believe would be tolerated by Steelers ownership.

This isn't to say that one is better or worse than the other -- it is just that each franchise has certain things they will and will not tolerate. Some teams do not care how their staff treats players, as long as the team wins. Others place some amount of stock in how players are treated. Either can be effective, but the original poster was setting up a BS starting point because he has an agenda with every posts he makes that has nothing to do with a dispassionate discussion of leadership/coaching styles.

FWIW, Saban is an effective college coach and a disaster as an NFL coach. The next 2-3 years will be very telling for Billy B. He has been scarily effective at winning while with the Pats. However, he has less talent now than ever before. What happens next? No one really knows.

Finally, I think both are pretty crappy people but that is just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[tom444]

I should have been clearer. I am under no illusion that the Steelers will excuse significant off the field and character concerns from their players - at least highly successful ones. What I was attempting to drive at is the manner with which Saban and Billy B treat people is not the way that the Steelers organization has traditionally encouraged its coaches and management to interact with players. That was more of what I was getting at.

After I posted I wondered if that wasn't what you were driving at. All I can I say to that is, could be. I wouldn't pretend to know what goes on inside the Stealers organization. As for the Patriots, Belichick certainly doesn't try to hide the fact that he's difficult to play for. How unfair he is I couldn't really speculate, but Foxborough clearly isn't for everyone.

[Six Rings]

Interesting stats

Belichick is 55-63 in his career without Brady ... Tomlin is 17-14 without Ben ... I'm not saying that Tomlin is a better coach than Belichick since this is not the case, but Belichick was not incredible without Brady in his career and Tomlin was able to keep his team competitive without Ben in his career even if he had garbage QB often in his games.



Now comes the part where people who refuse to admit Tomlin is one of our problems interject. Belichick coached the Cleveland Browns. Pernially losers, and brought them to the playoffs. Isn't that part of this new data you're talking about? Tomlin only coached one team, which was a Super bowl team he inherited full of Bill Cowher players


What's Belichick record on the Patriots without Brady, I bet its better than Tomlin's record without Ben


Manning up and saying the loss was on me is foreign to Tomlin. I never see him have an in-depth conversation with Ben, like other top coaches, do with their QB, nor to I see Tomlin learning from his mistakes. Sideline coaching? Rarely do I see it. Fool Belichick or Saban once than they make sure they are prepared not to be fooled again. Watch this doc and you'll see. With Tomlin it's the same old story and lack of adjustments.

[Mojouw]

With this poster it's the same old story with no adjustments. Need to bring in outside posters to improve his style.

Also, I love how people think TV broadcasts are transparent windows to reality. They are heavily produced stories. NFL broadcasts are soap operas for dudes. Predetermined narratives shoehorned into the broadcast. Such as Billy B the Galaxy brained Mastermind versus Tomlin the emotional leader.

Somewhere a bit ago there was a series of still photos that showed the total opposite impression of the Steelers sideline from what the TV broadcast gave.

Should've flagged it and stapled it to my forehead or something.

[polamalubeast]

Now comes the part where people who refuse to admit Tomlin is one of our problems interject. Belichick coached the Cleveland Browns. Pernially losers, and brought them to the playoffs. Isn't that part of this new data you're talking about? Tomlin only coached one team, which was a Super bowl team he inherited full of Bill Cowher players


What's Belichick record on the Patriots without Brady, I bet its better than Tomlin's record without Ben


Manning up and saying the loss was on me is foreign to Tomlin. I never see him have an in-depth conversation with Ben, like other top coaches, do with their QB, nor to I see Tomlin learning from his mistakes. Sideline coaching? Rarely do I see it. Fool Belichick or Saban once than they make sure they are prepared not to be fooled again. Watch this doc and you'll see. With Tomlin it's the same old story and lack of adjustments.

Belichick without Brady with the Pats is .500(19-19)...You lose your bet..

The Browns were not a Pernially losers before 1990 too ... They often made the playoffs before and they made 3 AFC title games in the late 1980s ... Good team which became the Ravens after.

[tom444]

Belichick without Brady with the Pats is .500(19-19)...You lose your bet..

Well, yes and no. Tomlin always had Ben. Belichick had another QB before Brady stepped in and you're counting those loses to I think. Most people start counting the Belichick without Brady record after Brady started playing.

[polamalubeast]

Well, yes and no. Tomlin always had Ben. Belichick had another QB before Brady stepped in and you're counting those loses to I think. Most people start counting the Belichick without Brady record after Brady started playing.

It was only a response to the other when he treated Tomlin like a garbage coach .... 17-14 without Ben when the best backup QB he had was a very old Charlie Batch, it's still not bad!

[Six Rings]

Belichick without Brady with the Pats is .500(19-19)...You lose your bet..

The Browns were not a Pernially losers before 1990 too ... They often made the playoffs before and they made 3 AFC title games in the late 1980s ... Good team which became the Ravens after.

When Brady was out for the year, the team finished 11-5.


" The 2008 season started off with disaster for the Patriots, when Tom Brady suffered a season-ending knee injury in Week 1 versus the Kansas City Chiefs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Chiefs). Despite the tough odds, Belichick coached the Patriots, with backup Matt Cassel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Cassel) under center, to a respectable 11-5 record. "

When Brady was out 4 games for deflate gate, New England won 3 of 4 games without Brady.

Is 19-19 without Brady since he joined the team correct? I'd like to see the source. If so I bet the some games lost without Brady were tank games when New England had nothing to gain at the end of the year. Just a hunch.

[Six Rings]

With this poster it's the same old story with no adjustments. Need to bring in outside posters to improve his style.

Also, I love how people think TV broadcasts are transparent windows to reality. They are heavily produced stories. NFL broadcasts are soap operas for dudes. Predetermined narratives shoehorned into the broadcast. Such as Billy B the Galaxy brained Mastermind versus Tomlin the emotional leader.

Somewhere a bit ago there was a series of still photos that showed the total opposite impression of the Steelers sideline from what the TV broadcast gave.

Should've flagged it and stapled it to my forehead or something.



Mojow,


Tomlin's lack of game day adjustment has been a problem for years. Can you show me one example? If not, then maybe I have a point. Tomlin never takes control of the sideline, doesn't even hold a play chart, and when the camera is on, him is almost never speaking. I see very little if any sideline coaching. Most head coaches work hand in hand with their QB. Tomlin doesn't.


I'll give you an example. During the Super Bowl vs. the Rams, the Rams defense was flooding the shorter routes angling for an interception. Noll pulled Bradshaw aside and told him you're not going to beat the Rams, throwing it short. Go deep and called a play Bradshaw was uncomfortable running. The result was a long touchdown pass to Stallworth, and the rest was history. That's what good coaching looks like. And this moment was filmed if you have't seen it. Does Tomlin have any such moment in any regular-season game?

[polamalubeast]

When Brady was out for the year, the team finished 11-5.


" The 2008 season started off with disaster for the Patriots, when Tom Brady suffered a season-ending knee injury in Week 1 versus the Kansas City Chiefs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Chiefs). Despite the tough odds, Belichick coached the Patriots, with backup Matt Cassel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Cassel) under center, to a respectable 11-5 record. "

Is 19-19 without Brady really correct? If so I bet the some games lost without Brady were tank games when New England had nothing to gain at the end of the year. Just a hunch.

The patriots were 5-11 in 2000(after a 8-8 season with Pete Carroll in 1999) and they started 0-2 in 2001 with Drew Bledsoe(a better QB that every backup that Tomlin had in his career)….5-13 overall...11-5 in 2008 with a very easy schedule and 3-1 in 2016...19-19 overall with the pats

- - - Updated - - -


Mojow,


Tomlin's lack of game day adjustment has been a problem for years. Can you show me one example? If not, then maybe I have a point. Tomlin never takes control of the sideline, doesn't even hold a play chart, and when the camera is on, him is almost never speaking. I see very little if any sideline coaching. Most head coaches work hand in hand with their QB. Tomlin doesn't.


I'll give you an example. During the Super Bowl vs. the Rams, the Rams defense was flooding the shorter routes angling for an interception. Noll pulled Bradshaw aside and told him you're not going to beat the Rams, throwing it short. Go deep and called a play Bradshaw was uncomfortable running. The result was a long touchdown pass to Stallworth, and the rest was history. That's what good coaching looks like. And this moment was filmed if you have't seen it. Does Tomlin have any such moment in any regular-season game?

Just one example?

Just the game against the Ravens in week 5 last year….The Ravens had 17 points in their first 3 drives and after they have done nothing on offense...It was the best offense and team in the regular season in 2019...The steelers won many games in the Tomlin era when they had a very slow start in a game.

The game in the regular season against Denver in 2015 is another exemple.

[Mojouw]

Mojow,


Tomlin's lack of game day adjustment has been a problem for years. Can you show me one example? If not, then maybe I have a point. Tomlin never takes control of the sideline, doesn't even hold a play chart, and when the camera is on, him is almost never speaking. I see very little if any sideline coaching. Most head coaches work hand in hand with their QB. Tomlin doesn't.


I'll give you an example. During the Super Bowl vs. the Rams, the Rams defense was flooding the shorter routes angling for an interception. Noll pulled Bradshaw aside and told him you're not going to beat the Rams, throwing it short. Go deep and called a play Bradshaw was uncomfortable running. The result was a long touchdown pass to Stallworth, and the rest was history. That's what good coaching looks like. And this moment was filmed if you have't seen it. Does Tomlin have any such moment in any regular-season game?

Wasn't it just this season that multiple Steelers players discussed in detail how Tomlin drew up a totally new defensive gampeplan at half-time?

As to interaction, you realize that is why the entire sideline is wired together, right? That headset Tomlin wears allows him to talk regularly to all his coaches. Might be that he communicates through that? Weird. I know, technology use in 2020 is an odd thing. Might be that he tells the OC what he wants and the OC tells the QB and so on and so forth. Might be that he is in his QBs helmet radio too. Nah. Because you didn't see it highlighted in a TV broadcast - it didn't happen. I guess all those times that Tomlin huddles with his players during timeouts and replay reviews they are just trading recipes?

For at least 2 seasons now Tomlin has been carrying a small play sheet on gamedays. Likely limited to defense, but that is fine. I don't really want Tomlin calling the offense. I can recall many instances over the years of Tomlin sideline huddling with the defense and the offense. It just isn't part of what the broadcast chooses to highlight.

It is a false narrative that is created by spoon-fed media driven storylines. Don't buy the drama. Remember, and NFL game broadcast is not a documentary.

[Mojouw]

Most recent example: https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2019/12/02/steelers-browns-mike-tomlin-nfl-week-13/

And an interesting discussion on how adjustments are constantly being made, but are not visible to every fan and definitely not talked about on the TV broadcast (the next time they talk about "leverage" in coverage alignment will be the first) -- https://steelersdepot.com/2018/12/mike-tomlin-talks-halftime-adjustments-and-why-significant-ones-are-rarely-made/

Many NFL coaches and players on the nonsensical TV narrative of "half-time adjustments": https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/8kew30/why_is_the_term_halftime_adjustments_used_so/

[pczach]

Wasn't it just this season that multiple Steelers players discussed in detail how Tomlin drew up a totally new defensive gampeplan at half-time?

As to interaction, you realize that is why the entire sideline is wired together, right? That headset Tomlin wears allows him to talk regularly to all his coaches. Might be that he communicates through that? Weird. I know, technology use in 2020 is an odd thing. Might be that he tells the OC what he wants and the OC tells the QB and so on and so forth. Might be that he is in his QBs helmet radio too. Nah. Because you didn't see it highlighted in a TV broadcast - it didn't happen. I guess all those times that Tomlin huddles with his players during timeouts and replay reviews they are just trading recipes?

For at least 2 seasons now Tomlin has been carrying a small play sheet on gamedays. Likely limited to defense, but that is fine. I don't really want Tomlin calling the offense. I can recall many instances over the years of Tomlin sideline huddling with the defense and the offense. It just isn't part of what the broadcast chooses to highlight.

It is a false narrative that is created by spoon-fed media driven storylines. Don't buy the drama. Remember, and NFL game broadcast is not a documentary.



Joe Haden described Tomlin changing a defensive gameplan at halftime during an interview. He talked about him being a great leader and a hands-on coach...then told that story as one example. I heard the interview myself on a sports radio talk show.

And here's the story on that Joe Haden interview on the Jim Rome Show. It's amazing what you can find if you're actually looking for it: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/joe-haden-opens-up-about-mike-tomlin-explains-what-separates-the-steelers-head-coach/




Here's Haden in a press conference specifically talking about Tomlin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjsKS2h3as4

Words directly from an All Pro player that has been with more than one franchise and has been around a few head coaches in his time. Yeah, Tomlin sounds like a real putz that doesn't know what he's doing.....:sarcasm2:

[Six Rings]

The patriots were 5-11 in 2000(after a 8-8 season with Pete Carroll in 1999) and they started 0-2 in 2001 with Drew Bledsoe(a better QB that every backup that Tomlin had in his career)….5-13 overall...11-5 in 2008 with a very easy schedule and 3-1 in 2016...19-19 overall with the pats

- - - Updated - - -



Just one example?

Just the game against the Ravens in week 5 last year….The Ravens had 17 points in their first 3 drives and after they have done nothing on offense...It was the best offense and team in the regular season in 2019...The steelers won many games in the Tomlin era when they had a very slow start in a game.

The game in the regular season against Denver in 2015 is another exemple.



We aren't talking about Carroll, just Hoodie without Brady.


I am looking for a specific coaching change in tactics or players that lead to a win, not a Big ben comeback. Can you give me just one? It's not easy, we have had tow back to back season collapses not making the playoffs despite good players.

[polamalubeast]

We aren't talking about Carroll, just Hoodie without Brady.


I am looking for a specific coaching change in tactics or players that lead to a win, not a Big ben comeback. Can you give me just one? It's not easy, we have had tow back to back season collapses not making the playoffs despite good players.

Just look at post 21 to 23 in this thread….I did not talk about Pete Carroll BTW,I just said that Belichick finish the season at 5-11 in 2000 with Bledsoe as QB after a 8-8 season in 1999 with a different HC...But at least don't avoid the post 21 to 23 in this thread...2019,the steelers had a depleted offense and they were still in the playoffs race until the end!...Great coaching!

[Six Rings]

Wasn't it just this season that multiple Steelers players discussed in detail how Tomlin drew up a totally new defensive gampeplan at half-time?

As to interaction, you realize that is why the entire sideline is wired together, right? That headset Tomlin wears allows him to talk regularly to all his coaches. Might be that he communicates through that? Weird. I know, technology use in 2020 is an odd thing. Might be that he tells the OC what he wants and the OC tells the QB and so on and so forth. Might be that he is in his QBs helmet radio too. Nah. Because you didn't see it highlighted in a TV broadcast - it didn't happen. I guess all those times that Tomlin huddles with his players during timeouts and replay reviews they are just trading recipes?

For at least 2 seasons now Tomlin has been carrying a small play sheet on gamedays. Likely limited to defense, but that is fine. I don't really want Tomlin calling the offense. I can recall many instances over the years of Tomlin sideline huddling with the defense and the offense. It just isn't part of what the broadcast chooses to highlight.

It is a false narrative that is created by spoon-fed media driven storylines. Don't buy the drama. Remember, and NFL game broadcast is not a documentary.



What?? When the camera zooms in on Tomlin, he's seldom talking into his headset. The guy is just not that involved. Please point out the rare moments you see ANY sideline coaching for the players. I see it all the time from other head coaching in NFL Game. There must be some vast conspiracy with the media and cameramen not to show Tomlin working, right? A joke

Tomlin knows so much about offense he hired Todd Haley.

- - - Updated - - -


Just look at post 21 to 23 in this thread….I did not talk about Pete Carroll BTW,I just said that Belichick finish the season at 5-11 in 2000 with Bledsoe as QB after a 8-8 season in 1999 with a different HC...But at least don't avoid the post 21 to 23 in this thread...2019,the steelers had a depleted offense and they were still in the playoffs race until the end!...Great coaching!

I am talking about Hoddie's record without Brady. Not on the browns or before him. Got it? I think the 19-19 record without Brady is BS, show the source please.


" The 2008 season started off with disaster for the Patriots, when Tom Brady suffered a season-ending knee injury in Week 1 versus the Kansas City Chiefs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Chiefs). Despite the tough odds, Belichick coached the Patriots, with backup Matt Cassel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Cassel) under center, to a respectable 11-5 record. "

Lately when Brady was out for deflating footballs, New England went 3-1 without him. That's 14-6 without Brady, how the heck do you get to 19-19 for Hoodiewithout Brady?

If 19-19 without Brady really correct ( I doubt it ) some of those games lost without Brady were tank games when New England had nothing to gain at the end of the year. Just a hunch.

[polamalubeast]

What?? When the camera zooms in on Tomlin, he's seldom talking into his headset. The guy is just not that involved. Please point out the rare moments you see ANY sideline coaching for the players. I see it all the time from other head coaching in NFL Game. There must be some vast conspiracy with the media and cameramen not to show Tomlin working, right? A joke

Tomlin knows so much about offense he hired Todd Haley.

- - - Updated - - -



I am talking about Hoddie's record without Brady. Not on the browns or before him. Got it? I think the 19-19 record without Brady is BS, show the source please.


" The 2008 season started off with disaster for the Patriots, when Tom Brady suffered a season-ending knee injury in Week 1 versus the Kansas City Chiefs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Chiefs). Despite the tough odds, Belichick coached the Patriots, with backup Matt Cassel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Cassel) under center, to a respectable 11-5 record. "

Lately when Brady was out for deflating footballs, New England went 3-1 without him. That's 14-6 without Brady, how the heck do you get to 19-19 for Hoodiewithout Brady?

If 19-19 without Brady really correct ( I doubt it ) some of those games lost without Brady were tank games when New England had nothing to gain at the end of the year. Just a hunch.




You were asking the record of Belichick with the pats in post 13...I give you the answer and without surprise you change the question after.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2000.htm

and 0-2 in 2001.

I'm right and you're wrong on that once again

And the thing that is frustrating, you avoided post 22 in this thread which gave examples on Tomlin

And I had given 2 examples on Tomlin adjustments (week 5 in 2019 and week 15 in 2015) and both games were adjustments on defense by Tomlin .... Nothing to do with Ben.

[tom444]

What?? When the camera zooms in on Tomlin, he's seldom talking into his headset. The guy is just not that involved. Please point out the rare moments you see ANY sideline coaching for the players. I see it all the time from other head coaching in NFL Game. There must be some vast conspiracy with the media and cameramen not to show Tomlin working, right? A joke

Tomlin knows so much about offense he hired Todd Haley.

- - - Updated - - -



I am talking about Hoddie's record without Brady. Not on the browns or before him. Got it? I think the 19-19 record without Brady is BS, show the source please.


" The 2008 season started off with disaster for the Patriots, when Tom Brady suffered a season-ending knee injury in Week 1 versus the Kansas City Chiefs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Chiefs). Despite the tough odds, Belichick coached the Patriots, with backup Matt Cassel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Cassel) under center, to a respectable 11-5 record. "

Lately when Brady was out for deflating footballs, New England went 3-1 without him. That's 14-6 without Brady, how the heck do you get to 19-19 for Hoodiewithout Brady?

If 19-19 without Brady really correct ( I doubt it ) some of those games lost without Brady were tank games when New England had nothing to gain at the end of the year. Just a hunch.





He's including when Bledsoe was under center before Brady started.

[Mojouw]

Once again we see proof that you can't argue with stupid. Stupid always wins!

[tube517]

Once again we see proof that you can't argue with stupid. Stupid always wins!

Where is Tee Tee when you need him? At least he was entertaining. :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

Where is Tee Tee when you need him? At least he was entertaining. :chuckle:

Or maybe Crash? At least he wrote his own material!

[fansince'76]

Where is Tee Tee when you need him? At least he was entertaining. :chuckle:

Hippo farts, bad poker playing and .007 games in cool shades! :hippo: :poker: :bond::smoker:

:chuckle:

[polamalubeast]

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/31516-Mike-Tomlin-and-Ben-and-the-playoffs-Some-interesting-numbers

The funny thing in this thread is that before the playoffs he was talking about how much better than the playoffs record of Sean Payton was better than Tomlin and a home playoffs loss later, Payton had an 8-7 playoff record (4-6 since 2010 ) which is the same as Tomlin.

John Harbaugh is also 1-3 in the playoffs in the last 7 years since Brian Billick players like Ray Lewis or Ed reed left or retired!

Andy Reid was also 1-7 in the playoffs in 2008 to 2017 and it includes some terrible losses like in 2013 and 2017

My point is that every coach can have difficult moments in their career and it can last a long time.But not the reason to fired the coach at every occasion.

Some in Pittsburgh also wanted Mike Sullivan in the NHL to be fired last year despite the Penguins being the only team to win back to back stanley cup in the last 20 years in this league not too long ago....

[teegre]

If Belichick went 30-0 without Brady or if Belichick went 3-27 without Brady, it has no relevance to whether any other coach is any good.

SUMMATION:
False correlation

[polamalubeast]

The patriots way will never works with others teams which is a big reason why no HC who had been assistant coach with Belichick have been good as head coach in the nfl.

Ex-Pats corner: Time in NE not enjoyable

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/asante-samuel-on-tom-brady-leaving-patriots-he-probably-just-got-fed-up-with-it-at-the-end-of-the-day/

[ALLD]

Saban buried the Dolphins as head coach when he pursed all the college players he could not get coaching there. Apparently he knows more about NCAA than the NFL and the Fins were already on their last leg. Joe Gibbs was a better coach than him or Belichick. He won SBs with 3 different QBs and didn't need to cheat to win.

[polamalubeast]

Saban buried the Dolphins as head coach when he pursed all the college players he could not get coaching there. Apparently he knows more about NCAA than the NFL. Joe Gibbs was a better coach than him or Belichick. He won SBs with 3 different QBs and didn't need to cheat to win.

Saban also choose Daunte Culpepper over Drew Brees in 2006...Culpepper is out of the NFL for at least 10 years!

The art of coaching...or arrogance!!!!

[polamalubeast]

So far,not good without Brady for BB....2-4 this year 21-23 in NE without Brady and 57-67 in his career for BB

[86WARD]

So far,not good without Brady for BB.2-4 this year2 1-23 in NE without Brady and 57-67 in his career for BB

The roster talent is on a whole different level when you compare the two.

These guys are putting up major points and still have AB to come...lol.

[polamalubeast]

The roster talent is on a whole different level when you compare the two.

These guys are putting up major points and still have AB to come...lol.

I agree but Belichick is also their GM....

[fansince'76]

I agree but Belichick is also their GM....

Exactly. Besides, whatever happened to the notion that Belichick is such a football mastermind that he can pretty much put any group of jabronis out on the field and win with them? :jerkit:

[polamalubeast]

1322543428916269056

[Mojouw]

Billy B and the Gang got screwed by anyone who was any good opting out on their defense. That and just missing over and over and over again on WRs.

[polamalubeast]

Mojow,


Tomlin's lack of game day adjustment has been a problem for years. Can you show me one example? If not, then maybe I have a point. Tomlin never takes control of the sideline, doesn't even hold a play chart, and when the camera is on, him is almost never speaking. I see very little if any sideline coaching. Most head coaches work hand in hand with their QB. Tomlin doesn't.


I'll give you an example. During the Super Bowl vs. the Rams, the Rams defense was flooding the shorter routes angling for an interception. Noll pulled Bradshaw aside and told him you're not going to beat the Rams, throwing it short. Go deep and called a play Bradshaw was uncomfortable running. The result was a long touchdown pass to Stallworth, and the rest was history. That's what good coaching looks like. And this moment was filmed if you have't seen it. Does Tomlin have any such moment in any regular-season game?

1323040005305020416

[polamalubeast]

1323401539319463936

[Mojouw]

1323401539319463936

So the salary cap made you bad at drafting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tom444]

So the salary cap made you bad at drafting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, you could say, two Lombardi trophies in 40 years. How good are the Steelers at drafting?

[Mojouw]

Two Lombardi trophies in 40 years. How good are the Steelers at drafting?

Arguably better than the Patriots.

No one is questioning the Pats SB success. Not their great run of winning. But their uneven at best track record in the draft has them playing without Tom Brady and a pretty bare cupboard of overall roster talent.

The salary cap has nothing to do with the Pats issues. Half their defense opting out and a lack of weapons on offense might be the core of it.

[tom444]

Arguably better than the Patriots.

No one is questioning the Pats SB success. Not their great run of winning. But their uneven at best track record in the draft has them playing without Tom Brady and a pretty bare cupboard of overall roster talent.

The salary cap has nothing to do with the Pats issues. Half their defense opting out and a lack of weapons on offense might be the core of it.

Again, how good is the drafting ability of a team that only wins two SBs in 40 years? That is the only yardstick that matters.

But anyway, we'll see.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, every year there are teams in the NFL that are at the top of the league on paper. On paper.

[Mojouw]

Again, not sure what your objecting to.

This article did the research.

https://theathletic.com/2171570/2020/11/02/bill-belichick-patriots-salary-cap/?source=user_shared_article

The Pats have drafted less talent than the rest of the league over the last 20 years on offense. 3 Pro Bowl players on offense compared to a league average of 7. Without Brady to elevate the offense, it isn't working as well.

I wasn't aware this was controversial. Their last home grown star was Jamie Collins. That's seven years ago.

[tom444]

Again, not sure what your objecting to.


Actually I'm objecting to the fact that the Patriots are 2 and 5. :)

In all seriousness. BB drafts who he wants to coach. Now that doesn't excuse his lack of talent at the WR position, but everywhere else, I have no problem with his choices. How many all pros you have drafted is meaningless if you're not winning SBs. It is a team game after all.

[polamalubeast]

Well, you could say, two Lombardi trophies in 40 years. How good are the Steelers at drafting?

This thread has nothing to do with the steelers....

[tom444]

This thread has nothing to do with the steelers....

This last bit in this thread has to do with any team that drafts and what benchmark you use to gauge how effective your drafting is? .I'm saying how many guys you draft that go to the pro bowl isn't as good gauge as some might think it is. Are the Steelers arguably better than the Patriots at drafting? That depend on how you gauge it.

[polamalubeast]

This last bit in this thread has to do with any team that drafts and what benchmark you use to gauge how effective your drafting is? .I'm saying how many guys you draft that go to the pro bowl isn't as good gauge as some might think it is. Are the Steelers arguably better than the Patriots at drafting? That depend on how you gauge it.

For the most part, yes

You say the steelers have only won 2 super bowl in the last 40 years (we can also say in the last 15 years, but that's another story) but during this period they were 10 times in the AFC title game (9 since 1994 ), so they were a super bowl contender quite often even though they didn't have a franchise QB until 2004.

The Pats are like 60 games under .500 in their history without Brady....They are the Chicago Bulls of the NFL.

[tom444]

..............................but during this period they were 10 times in the AFC title game (9 since 1994 )....................

That keeps asses in the seats and that's all. However, in all honesty, that is the name of the game. I'd rather suffer for 35 years though and then go through the last 20 years that we went through here then be a bridesmaid again, and again, and again. And a significant portion of that 20 year run was due to Coach Belichick and the talent he put on the field besides Brady.

[teegre]

1323401539319463936

see: the Steelers in 2012-2015

Had the Steelers won the Super Bowl in 2010, a lot of those aging defenders would have retired. Instead, Colbert & Khan had to mortgage the future in order to win “one more” with those expensive veterans.

Drafting a few All Pros on cheap rookie contracts (e.g. Bell, Bryant) helped them stay afloat, but they were up against the cap for quite a few years there.

That said, missing on players like Jarvis Jones, asks also losing Senquez Golson and Ryan Shazier to injury kept them from ever getting over the top. They remained “good”, but glaring holes kept them from being true Super Bowl contenders.

[tube517]

https://heavy.com/sports/pittsburgh-steelers/patriots-try-out-wr-donte-moncrief/?fbclid=IwAR0-3v4e6voXcuC9XFNnXnO_YffL3Sv5Xmy9ZGCUkT5QPcl2bfYmZz 11U0o

Patriots Try Out Failed Steelers Receiver

[tom444]

https://heavy.com/sports/pittsburgh-steelers/patriots-try-out-wr-donte-moncrief/?fbclid=IwAR0-3v4e6voXcuC9XFNnXnO_YffL3Sv5Xmy9ZGCUkT5QPcl2bfYmZz 11U0o

Patriots Try Out Failed Steelers Receiver


If you're a receiver and can walk and chew gum at the same time the Patriots should be trying you out.

[Fire Goodell]

How many coaching geniuses were carried by an elite QB?

[tom444]

How many coaching geniuses were carried by an elite QB?

Add, subtract, pick and choose.


1.Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, New England Patriots Years – 18 (2000-2017)
Regular Season Record – 196-55, .781%
Postseason Record – 25-9, .735%
Division Championships – 15
Conference Championships – 7
Super Bowl/League Championships – 5

2.Paul Brown and Otto Graham, Cleveland Browns (AAFC/NFL)
Years – 10 (1946-1955)
Regular Season Record – 105-17-4, .861%
Postseason Record – 9-3, .750%
Division Championships – N/A*
Conference Championships – 10
Super Bowl/League Championships – 7

3.Vince Lombardi and Bart Starr, Green Bay Packers
Years – 9 (1959-1967)
Regular Season Record – 77-23-4, .770%
Postseason Record – 9-1-0, .900%
Division Championships – N/A*
Conference Championships – 6
Super Bowl/League Championships – 7

4.Chuck Noll and Terry Bradshaw, Pittsburgh Steelers
Years – 14 (1970-1983)
Regular Season Record – 107-51-0, .677%
Postseason Record – 14-5-0, .737%
Division Championships – 8
Conference Championships – 4
Super Bowl/League Championships – 4

5.Tom Landry and Roger Staubach, Dallas Cowboys
Years – 11 (1969-1979)
Regular Season Record – 85-29-0, .736%
Postseason Record – 13-7-0, .650%
Division Championships – 8
Conference Championships – 5
Super Bowl Championships – 2

6.Bill Walsh and Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers
Years 10 (1979-1988)
Regular Season Record – 75-36-0, .676%
Postseason Record – 10-4-0, .714%
Division Championships – 6
Conference Championships – 3
Super Bowl Championships – 3

7.Mike Tomlin and Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
Years – 11 (2007-2017)
Regular Season Record – 106-32-0, .768%
Postseason Record – 8-6-0, .571%
Division Championships – 6
Conference Championships – 2
Super Bowl Championships – 1

8.Don Shula and Dan Marino, Miami Dolphins
Years – 13 (1983-1995)
Regular Season Record – 116-68-0, .630%
Postseason Record – 6-7-0, .462%
Division Championships – 5
Conference Championships – 1
Super Bowl Championships – 0

9.Marv Levy and Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills
Years – 11 (1986-1996)
Regular Season Record – 99-52-0, .656%
Postseason Record – 9-8-0, .529%
Division Championships – 6
Conference Championships – 4
Super Bowl Championships – 0

10.Tony Dungy and Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts
Years – 7 (2002-2008)
Regular Season Record – 85-27-0, .758%
Postseason Record – 7-6-0, .538%
Division Championships – 5
Conference Championships – 1
Super Bowl Championships – 1


https://www.profootballhof.com/top-10-head-coach-and-quarterback-tandems/

[tom444]

The overrated draft.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU02GOkPsmw