Another take on TEs

[Mojouw]

I know many here are excited about several of the TEs after the combine. Not everyone agrees. This article kinda summarizes much fo what I see outside of the Steelers internet - 2020 TEs bad at being TEs.

https://steelersdepot.com/2020/02/pavelle-thoughts-on-poor-2020-te-class/

Unless they really fall in love with a guy, I don’t think they draft one. Again

[Born2Steel]

I know many here are excited about several of the TEs after the combine. Not everyone agrees. This article kinda summarizes much fo what I see outside of the Steelers internet - 2020 TEs bad at being TEs.

https://steelersdepot.com/2020/02/pavelle-thoughts-on-poor-2020-te-class/

Unless they really fall in love with a guy, I don’t think they draft one. Again


McDonald's future money is too high, IMO($7,127,500), to continue with his offensive production. Maybe being on this team next year is important enough for him to negotiate a new more team friendly longer term contract? But with a new CBA being hammered out and lock out/strike still looming, why would he do this now? Moving forward with Vannett(27 yr old UFA) and 2nd yr Gentry is the other current option depending on what it would cost to keep Vannett knowing the TE bind the Steelers are in currently.

Another option to (my)approach is the 'swiss army knife' player that does play well in pass pro, as a RB, flexed out as a WR, and has shown an ability to block in space, getting away from the more traditional TE role. Already have Jaylen Samuels that can play this role. Adding another player of this mold(Antonio Gibson/Zack Moss as an example) gives the offense more weapons to employ from various lineups and formations as well as having both the blocking AND athletic skill missing from this crop of TE prospects.

I am by no means a scouting expert nor do I try to come across as one on here. I just do not see any upgrade to our current TE position in this draft class, and I have looked for one. Not enough to use our pick at #49 when there are so many better prospects that will be available. I completely agree with most on here that this offense needs more weapons and to upgrade the OL now. I just don't agree that new weapon must be a TE. At least not in the traditional sense. I think the article you posted says pretty much the same thing you and I have been saying about this year's TE class. Not a historically bad class just not early round impressive either.

[Dwinsgames]

yea like I said in the other thread on TE's ...

this was said of Kittle ( all pretty highly regarded draft writers )

Lance Zierlein - ( see why you can't believe these guys that much , to many prospects to little time )
NFL Comparison Charles Clay !!

PFF said ... Player comparison: Chris Cooley, Washington Redskins

Bleacher report said... PRO COMPARISON: Tyler Higbee, Los Angeles Rams (http://bleacherreport.com/los-angeles-rams)


(http://bleacherreport.com/los-angeles-rams)The problem is this , you have guys making good money to be on top of every draft eligible player out there and quite frankly it is just not humanly possible ..

so many players and to properly evaluate them it takes HOURS of work for 1 prospect now consider there is literally thousands of Jr and SR prospects that are draft eligible ...

granted many do not have a snowballs shot in hell but to know this beyond certainty you still have to get a peek at them and doing so with Kids from small school you never heard of USA is nearly impossible often times but you have time spent if making an honest effort ...

it would take forever just to cover the top 250 prospects and at that point you have only scratched the surface ( and I must ask how did you come up with that list of 250 if you didnt look at them all ?? )

its very complex and fluid and HIGHLY opinionated and just as subjective ...

I am not always right and neither is anyone else ... all we can do is form an opinion off of what we see and try and translate what we seen into a pro setting

its far from a science

[steelreserve]

Pretty simple, really. Either they overpay for McDonald or they overpay in the draft.

It will probably be McDonald, because we are short on draft picks, and there's a great chance whoever we drafted would suck anyway. We would probably spend a 2 or a 3 to end up with some 4th- or 5th-round talent level bullshit, and we have plenty of that already.

Also, I think McDonald will be much better next year without a dogshit quarterback, and we are likely counting on that. All our receivers kinda sucked last year because of that.

[Mojouw]

Everyone keeps telling me how McDonald is overpaid. Take last year away, because the QB play was comically inept. He was 12th overall in catches by a TE in 2018. By average salary he is 13th overall. I mean isn't that basically a wash?

People keep saying that there are these veteran TEs out there making 3-4 million that outperform Vance -- who are they? https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/tight-end/type-veteran/ because it certainly isn't anyone on that list.

If it is from this list -- https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/tight-end/type-rookie/ -- then that is back to the conversation about drafting and developing someone.

Am I huge Vance McDonald fan? Nope. Do I think he is better than Jesse James, Nick Vannett, Xavier Grimble, and Gentry? Yes. Do I think in 2020 he will be better than 50% of the 2020 rookie class? Hands down. Do I think he will be better than 50% of the 2020 rookie class in 2021 and beyond? Likely no.

So I guess that is the question...who plays TE in 2020 and what rookies that can be drafted in the 3rd round or later have a chance of growing into a decent NFL TE? Because, from what I am reading, you can NOT play any of them in 2020 in a significant role. They either can't run block (remember Jesse James early in his career -- lordy lordy it was bad) or they will get what is left of your franchise QB killed in pass protection or they can kinda sorta block, but they won't get open against NFL caliber defenders. Steelers already have 2 of those guys on the roster in Vannett and Gentry. Certainly am not a fan of signing up for the opportunity to draft another one.

I say draft Mims at WR and watch him run past, over, and around people.

[Shoes]

From the film I've seen of Harrison Bryant, I'll take Zierlein's overview over Pavelle's at Steelers Depot. Pavelle's overview is "Harrison Bryant has T-rex arms"


Zierlein's overview

Bryant's plus athletic traits, high football IQ and toughness as a blocker make him one of the most talented, well-rounded tight ends in this draft. He's a little light to be considered for full-time work as a "Y" tight end, but his technique and tenacity should not be discounted in his ability to help the running game. He's instinctive in space with speed and separation talent to work all three levels and gives offensive coordinators the freedom to line him up all over the field. Bryant could become an early starter and has the talent to be a high volume pass-catching target as a move tight end

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/harrison-bryant?id=32194252-5936-3372-c05e-d19e0eddbf05

[st33lersguy]

Remember back when people were calling the 2017 QB draft class extremely weak, and people were ranking every QB outside the top 20? That draft class produced the best QB in the NFL and another exciting young QB playmaker.

Just because someone calls a draft class at a position doesn't mean there isn't a TE that can't at least be better and more reliable than McDonald at about 1/10th the price. Look at it this way, do you want to go with someone who MAY NOT be reliable or continue to or do you want to continue to roll with someone who WE KNOW IS NOT reliable at about 10X THE PRICE. Sticking with what doesn't work because you're afraid something new won't work is a defeatist mentality

[hawaiiansteeler]

From the film I've seen of Harrison Bryant, I'll take Zierlein's overview over Pavelle's at Steelers Depot. Pavelle's overview is "Harrison Bryant has T-rex arms"

Bryant's plus athletic traits, high football IQ and toughness as a blocker make him one of the most talented, well-rounded tight ends in this draft. He's a little light to be considered for full-time work as a "Y" tight end, but his technique and tenacity should not be discounted in his ability to help the running game. He's instinctive in space with speed and separation talent to work all three levels and gives offensive coordinators the freedom to line him up all over the field. Bryant could become an early starter and has the talent to be a high volume pass-catching target as a move tight end
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/harrison-bryant?id=32194252-5936-3372-c05e-d19e0eddbf05[COLOR=#757575][FONT=&]


30 5/8" arms are very short for a TE...

[Shoes]

30 5/8" arms are very short for a TE...

and Ben has a very fat head for a QB. :chuckle:

[Mojouw]

Remember back when people were calling the 2017 QB draft class extremely weak, and people were ranking every QB outside the top 20? That draft class produced the best QB in the NFL and another exciting young QB playmaker.

Just because someone calls a draft class at a position doesn't mean there isn't a TE that can't at least be better and more reliable than McDonald at about 1/10th the price. Look at it this way, do you want to go with someone who MAY NOT be reliable or continue to or do you want to continue to roll with someone who WE KNOW IS NOT reliable at about 10X THE PRICE. Sticking with what doesn't work because you're afraid something new won't work is a defeatist mentality

When healthy AND playing with a non-awful QB, McDonald is exactly as reliable as one would expect. That being said, improving on his availability and level of play would be a great idea. But unlike the 2017 QB class, where even I could see that Watson and Mahomes were going to be pretty good, I am only seeing people say they can see even the top 4 prospects in this years TE class are hard to say the same about even if you squint really hard!

I just think that TE is the HARDEST position to draft successfully. Look at this list -- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2009&year_max=2019&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&pick_type=overall&pos%5B%5D=te&conference=any&show=all&order_by=default -- that is the last 10 years of drafted TEs. It is not a list of teams have a great deal of success.

So we have a position group that almost no franchise in the NFL appears to scout and predict well at all. This year it seems to be even worse than normal. The Steelers have less than normal amount of picks. Not a year to go dumpster diving.

I hope they do draft one. But just not with their 2nd round or 3rd round comp pick.

[Shoes]

When healthy AND playing with a non-awful QB, McDonald is exactly as reliable as one would expect. That being said, improving on his availability and level of play would be a great idea. But unlike the 2017 QB class, where even I could see that Watson and Mahomes were going to be pretty good, I am only seeing people say they can see even the top 4 prospects in this years TE class are hard to say the same about even if you squint really hard!

I just think that TE is the HARDEST position to draft successfully. Look at this list -- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2009&year_max=2019&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&pick_type=overall&pos%5B%5D=te&conference=any&show=all&order_by=default -- that is the last 10 years of drafted TEs. It is not a list of teams have a great deal of success.

So we have a position group that almost no franchise in the NFL appears to scout and predict well at all. This year it seems to be even worse than normal. The Steelers have less than normal amount of picks. Not a year to go dumpster diving.

I hope they do draft one. But just not with their 2nd round or 3rd round comp pick.


Not so sure about that. The Steelers seemed to have issues with DB's for years. It seems like its TE's now. Ladarius Green is still happy though :chuckle:

[steelreserve]

Everyone keeps telling me how McDonald is overpaid. Take last year away, because the QB play was comically inept. He was 12th overall in catches by a TE in 2018. By average salary he is 13th overall. I mean isn't that basically a wash?

I don't think he's overpaid, it's that his contract was backloaded and now we're at the shitty part. It was pretty much designed for him to be cut this off-season, but we don't have any better options.

He's a decent TE (albeit risky due to health), there might be some guys with similar production for a million or two less than our cap charge this year, but as you said, good luck finding anything that hands-down beats McDonald on value. With this being a pretty thin draft at the position, that's not going to help anything, and teams will probably be overpaying for so-so TEs already. Even if we lucked into something, it seems like a lot of churning and a lot of risk, to end up in basically the same place.

Bottom line, we likely keep all three of the TEs currently on our roster.

[Born2Steel]

I don't think he's overpaid, it's that his contract was backloaded and now we're at the shitty part. It was pretty much designed for him to be cut this off-season, but we don't have any better options.

He's a decent TE (albeit risky due to health), there might be some guys with similar production for a million or two less than our cap charge this year, but as you said, good luck finding anything that hands-down beats McDonald on value. With this being a pretty thin draft at the position, that's not going to help anything, and teams will probably be overpaying for so-so TEs already. Even if we lucked into something, it seems like a lot of churning and a lot of risk, to end up in basically the same place.

Bottom line, we likely keep all three of the TEs currently on our roster.

There are only 2 TEs on the roster. Vannett is a UFA this offseason unless I missed him being re-signed.
https://nfltraderumors.co/2020-nfl-free-agent-list/
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/nick-vannett-19048/

This is why I believe McDonald is a Steeler at least through training camp.

[steelreserve]

There are only 2 TEs on the roster. Vannett is a UFA this offseason unless I missed him being re-signed.
https://nfltraderumors.co/2020-nfl-free-agent-list/
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/nick-vannett-19048/

This is why I believe McDonald is a Steeler at least through training camp.

I meant that I think we'll try to keep Vannett as well, rather than leave a hole that we need to fill with yet another mid-round draft pick with problems.

Otherwise, what a shitty trade.

- - - Updated - - -


There are only 2 TEs on the roster. Vannett is a UFA this offseason unless I missed him being re-signed.
https://nfltraderumors.co/2020-nfl-free-agent-list/
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/nick-vannett-19048/

This is why I believe McDonald is a Steeler at least through training camp.

I meant that I think we'll try to keep Vannett as well, rather than leave a hole that we need to fill with yet another mid-round draft pick with problems.

Otherwise, what a shitty trade.

[HollywoodSteel]

We’ve had that gigantic British rugby player on the practice squad for about 8 years now. Hasn’t he learned how to catch yet?

[Shoes]

We’ve had that gigantic British rugby player on the practice squad for about 8 years now. Hasn’t he learned how to catch yet?

:chuckle:

[RunNGun]

The more I watch of Dalton Keene the more I'd like to see him in a Steelers uniform. His YAC ability is pretty solid and he's a decent run blocker as well. He didn't put up the best numbers, so he could go under the radar and still be available with our 4th rd pick.

[Born2Steel]

The more I watch of Dalton Keene the more I'd like to see him in a Steelers uniform. His YAC ability is pretty solid and he's a decent run blocker as well. He didn't put up the best numbers, so he could go under the radar and still be available with our 4th rd pick.

Good mid to late round prospect. I put some film on him in the 2020 draft prospects thread. Mostly just highlight stuff and he had a breakout game against Miami so mostly that too. Looks sort of like another Jesse James to me.

[RunNGun]

Good mid to late round prospect. I put some film on him in the 2020 draft prospects thread. Mostly just highlight stuff and he had a breakout game against Miami so mostly that too. Looks sort of like another Jesse James to me.

I don't see the Jesse James comparison. JJ was stiff as a runner and offered 0 YAC ability. While Keene isn't blazing fast, he does have some moves and is tough to bring down. Va Tech used him as an H back and he even had a few carries at RB. Perhaps an Aaron Hernandez type of player?

[Born2Steel]

I don't see the Jesse James comparison. JJ was stiff as a runner and offered 0 YAC ability. While Keene isn't blazing fast, he does have some moves and is tough to bring down. Va Tech used him as an H back and he even had a few carries at RB. Perhaps an Aaron Hernandez type of player?

OK. Whatever pro comparison works for you. Keene does seem to have more formation flexibility than James. As a result Keene may be more polished in pass pro as well. Nothing in the film highlights that though and anything blocking-wise is speculation still after watching. I made a post on him because he impresses as a weapon and right now that's good enough for me.

[RunNGun]

OK. Whatever pro comparison works for you. Keene does seem to have more formation flexibility than James. As a result Keene may be more polished in pass pro as well. Nothing in the film highlights that though and anything blocking-wise is speculation still after watching. I made a post on him because he impresses as a weapon and right now that's good enough for me.

Agreed. His blocking is all speculation. He may not be the athlete Hernandez was, but he's a better athlete than JJ IMO.

[86WARD]

I don't see the Jesse James comparison. JJ was stiff as a runner and offered 0 YAC ability. While Keene isn't blazing fast, he does have some moves and is tough to bring down. Va Tech used him as an H back and he even had a few carries at RB. Perhaps an Aaron Hernandez type of player?

James’ 2018 YAC was in line with quite a few TEs that people mention around here. Not much different than OJ Howard, Trey Burton, Vernon Davis, Mark Andrews. He had more than Gronkowski in 2018...although I think Gronk missed 2 games that year. Other than the premiere TEs (Ertz, Kelce, Reed, Kittle, Engram) there’s not much difference in YAC when it comes to James compared to the other guys...in some case it could just be on 50 yard catch that’s the difference. James really wasn’t as bad as people wish he was...

[RunNGun]

James’ 2018 YAC was in line with quite a few TEs that people mention around here. Not much different than OJ Howard, Trey Burton, Vernon Davis, Mark Andrews. He had more than Gronkowski in 2018...although I think Gronk missed 2 games that year. Other than the premiere TEs (Ertz, Kelce, Reed, Kittle, Engram) there’s not much difference in YAC when it comes to James compared to the other guys...in some case it could just be on 50 yard catch that’s the difference. James really wasn’t as bad as people wish he was...

JJ was a quality #2 TE. His YAC was because he was wide open not because he was making someone miss or breaking a tackle. Jesse James has no hips.

[Mojouw]

James wasn’t awful as a receiver. It was just literally everything else about being a TE that he wasn’t good at.

He signed with Detroit and got outplayed and passed on the depth chart by a rookie and a converted QB. And that’s after the Lions paid him. How bad do you have to be for a team to pay you a ton of money and then find two players who are better than you?

That’s Chickillo and Moncrief level of not performing.

[Born2Steel]

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a bash Jesse James thread. My comparison to him is ONLY because all I know about Dalton Keene is he looks like a James level offensive threat as a receiving weapon.(Used a Steelers reference point) James does not block well but I can't find anything on Keene's blocking ability or lack of so far. He may be a decent blocker which would trash the James comparison all together. AND even Keene's capability in the passing game comes a lot from one game vs Miami. If someone can find more film on Dalton Keene please post it.

[RunNGun]

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a bash Jesse James thread. My comparison to him is ONLY because all I know about Dalton Keene is he looks like a James level offensive threat as a receiving weapon.(Used a Steelers reference point) James does not block well but I can't find anything on Keene's blocking ability or lack of so far. He may be a decent blocker which would trash the James comparison all together. AND even Keene's capability in the passing game comes a lot from one game vs Miami. If someone can find more film on Dalton Keene please post it.

There's not a lot on him. From what I've watched, he was lined up as the H back a majority of the time. A lot of lead blocking. Not a lot of opportunities as a TE. It looks as though Va Tech threw a lot of balls to their WRs and ran a lot of zone read. The Miami game was definitely his best game as a receiver, but he also had a pretty good combine. Maybe he wasn't utilized correctly or maybe he's another Jesse James...but if he turns into Travis Kelce I hope you all remember me mentioning him :wave:

[Born2Steel]

There's not a lot on him. From what I've watched, he was lined up as the H back a majority of the time. A lot of lead blocking. Not a lot of opportunities as a TE. It looks as though Va Tech threw a lot of balls to their WRs and ran a lot of zone read. The Miami game was definitely his best game as a receiver, but he also had a pretty good combine. Maybe he wasn't utilized correctly or maybe he's another Jesse James...but if he turns into Travis Kelce I hope you all remember me mentioning him :wave:

Sort of like last draft's Dawson Knox maybe. A player nobody seems to know or talk about then his name pushes up draft board talks closer to draft day.

[teegre]

Every year, there’s a R3-R5 TE who has a few good years. Some have had quite a few good years.

Mark Andrews... Will Dissly... Jonnu Smith... George Kittle... Austin Hooper... Jordan Reed... Travis Kelce...

Of course, the number of TEs who turned out to be (basically) nothing is much larger.

SUMMATION:
Prior to being drafted, none of those aforementioned guys (listed above) was seen as a “day-one starter”. Yet, every year, a few gems are found. Maybe we luck out... if... our dart lands the right spot.

[43Hitman]

James wasn’t awful as a receiver. It was just literally everything else about being a TE that he wasn’t good at.

He signed with Detroit and got outplayed and passed on the depth chart by a rookie and a converted QB. And that’s after the Lions paid him. How bad do you have to be for a team to pay you a ton of money and then find two players who are better than you?

That’s Chickillo and Moncrief level of not performing.

Well to be fair Hockenson is a really good player. The other guy, I have clue about. Go Hawkeyes!