Game balls and goats vs Buffalo

[GoSlash27]

I have to give a goat to Duck Hodges for this loss. Too many floaty deep passes and Buffalo took advantage of them.
Nod to Cam Heyward, who personally shut down a drive and almost pulled this game out for us.

[Edman]

Steelers lose 17-10.

Randy Fichtner for top goat.
O-Line is the second.
Duck a distant third.

[B&G]

Goats Jordan Berry, O-line

TJ and Cam kept us in the game

[Steelerchad]

Offense was anemic. Hodges is better than Rudolph, but still not good. He killed us today.

[fansince'76]

Berry, anyone? He practically handed them their first TD and he blew the rest of the night as well in a game where field position was paramount. I've seen high school punters get more distance.

[SteelerFan091472]

Jordan Berry. He picked the worst the time have an awful punt that set up the Buffalo’s first score.

[Neversatisfied]

The offense earned my Goat vote this week.
The offseason needs to focus 100% on Offense.
The Defense has progressed to a level we Steeler fans couldn't have dreamed of!

[tube517]

Goats: Berry and Fichtner

[86WARD]

TJ Watt - only game ball.

GoaTs -

- Fichtner. He’s just beyond bad. Can’t wait to hear the Randy apologists this week.

- O-Line. It’s getting really bad. Coincidence maybe, but since Munchak left, so did the O-Line. 6-8 men in blocking, the Bills were still getting pressure, clean pressure rushing 4-5 guys. Duck has to rush throws, couldn’t read progressions. Had Washington wide open on one of Fichtner few good play calls and couldn’t get to the read...

- Special Teams and Danny Smith...again, shit.

[Rotorhead]

Goats to Fitchner, the first half play calls were worse than terrible, and to Berry who killed us with that 20yd shank.

Balls to most of the defense

[AtlantaDan]

Berry, Fichtner, OL, Duck playing like an undrafted rookie QB forced to make plays

Defense played its heart out

[Iron Steeler]

agree with TJ Watt only game ball.

Goat. Wildcat, Berry.

Duck got into 50/50 ball lottery, and the Bills 50% kept cashing in.

oh well

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I agree with you all and what I think!

[Edman]

Just like Rudolph and Ben before him, Duck Hodges has a string of solid games, before his play plummets off a cliff. Once is an accident. Twice is a pattern. Three times is a trend. Three Quarterbacks under center for the Steelers, all of them with the exact same issues. Horrible regression. Ben plays horrible. Rudy plays horrible. Now the Duck plays horrible.

Tonight we learned that the offense is simply a fundamental mess and poorly designed. It is a glorified High School Varsity Offense in the NFL without elite talent to cover for the warts.

[Rotorhead]

Not going to Goat Duck, he made 2 bad INTs, the other 2 were last ditch efforts for 50/50 balls that we just didn’t make. He made a few good plays, and drove us down the field to get us a shot at tying at the end. Can’t ask much more of a UDFAR. We just don’t have the playmakers, really could have used Juju this game. With the injuries and lack of talent, we couldn’t afford the mistakes we made (we are looking at you Berry) and the ridiculous wildcat crap (Conner should have kept that ball as soon as the snap was low).

[st33lersguy]

Game Ball: Defense- They did EVERYTHING to try and win the game. They gave this team a chance. TJ Watt specifically helped keep this a one possession game himself. He made some amazing plays

Game Goats: Fichtner- Does this guy know how to do anything other than suck up to Ben? Seriously, the guy is terrible. He doesn't understand basic play construction, situational football, or the simple idea that if a play doesn't work it shouldn't be used. Apparently Fichtner is the only person who watches football who didn't figure out after the 1st quarter of the 1st Baltimore game that the wildcat doesn't work and shouldn't be run, nope Fichtner still runs it and it cost the team. He's making me pine for Todd Haley he is that bad. Seriously, the offense would legit probably be better if they canned Fichtner and let Ben call the plays
Duck- Helped turn the game around in Buffalo's favor with that awful pick
O-line- The unit was way overmatched against the Bills defense. Numerous sacks surrendered and penalties
Shaun Sarrett- Send him to the unemployment line along with Fichtner. He inherited an elite o-line with 3 pro bowlers from Munch and the o-line has IMMMEDIATELY turned into a hot mess. How does that happen? How is it he is gifted with that much to work with and yield such little in return
Berry- This guy should have been sent packing 3 years ago. Sometimes it is better to just let crap go

- - - Updated - - -


Just like Rudolph and Ben before him, Duck Hodges has a string of solid games, before his play plummets off a cliff. Once is an accident. Twice is a pattern. Three times is a trend. Three Quarterbacks under center for the Steelers, all of them with the exact same issues. Horrible regression. Ben plays horrible. Rudy plays horrible. Now the Duck plays horrible.

Tonight we learned that the offense is simply a fundamental mess and poorly designed. It is a glorified High School Varsity Offense in the NFL without elite talent to cover for the warts.

Stems from the clueless OC

[Rotorhead]

Just like Rudolph and Ben before him, Duck Hodges has a string of solid games, before his play plummets off a cliff. Once is an accident. Twice is a pattern. Three times is a trend. Three Quarterbacks under center for the Steelers, all of them with the exact same issues. Horrible regression. Ben plays horrible. Rudy plays horrible. Now the Duck plays horrible.

Tonight we learned that the offense is simply a fundamental mess and poorly designed. It is a glorified High School Varsity Offense in the NFL without elite talent to cover for the warts.

If Ben was playing this season, we are already in the playoffs, probably beating Seattle, Baltimore and SF?

But I understand what you are saying, Fitchner needs to be gone for someone that actually knows how to run a professional offense.

[smokin3000gt]

Just like Rudolph and Ben before him, Duck Hodges has a string of solid games, before his play plummets off a cliff. Once is an accident. Twice is a pattern. Three times is a trend. Three Quarterbacks under center for the Steelers, all of them with the exact same issues. Horrible regression. Ben plays horrible. Rudy plays horrible. Now the Duck plays horrible.

Tonight we learned that the offense is simply a fundamental mess and poorly designed. It is a glorified High School Varsity Offense in the NFL without elite talent to cover for the warts.

:chuckle:

[Steelerchad]

he doesn't get a pass throwing 4 INT and fumbling another because he held the ball, even though a Steeler recovered it. He also killed us on the final drive by taking a sack in a spot where YOU CAN'T TAKE A SACK. Lost 25 seconds recovering from that, then the lob pick to end it.

[AtlantaDan]

Just like Rudolph and Ben before him, Duck Hodges has a string of solid games, before his play plummets off a cliff.

Ben has never been able to string together a decent season, just a few good games in succession here and there?

But I agree completely the offense is a joke. Ben and AB freelancing successfully covered up a lot in Fichtner's first season as OC.

[fansince'76]

Ben has never been able to string together a decent season, just a few good games in succession here and there?

Yeah, that's pretty much been his primary argument for a while now. :rolleyes:

[Steeler-in-west]

Berry, Duck (at least for today, he had the same shit performance that we’ve knocked Rudolph for) we may need to pickup another FA backup for Ben next year. Nelson, bills picked on him and it payed off. Whoever blew the coverage on that second Bills TD

The defense overall did its job. But our QB sucked today.

[Rotorhead]

he doesn't get a pass throwing 4 INT and fumbling another because he held the ball, even though a Steeler recovered it. He also killed us on the final drive by taking a sack in a spot where YOU CAN'T TAKE A SACK. Lost 25 seconds recovering from that, then the lob pick to end it.

He does from me, MR doesn’t even get us the chance to win at all, at least Duck got us to the point to make that last throw, if the OL actually blocked on that play Duck isnt scrambling throwing while on the run in the first place, and probably makes that throw to the back corner (because he is accurate when he gets a chance to set his feet as shown by all the great over the shoulder throws he keeps making, something MR hasn’t done once). Remember, he is a 4th string QB on his 4th start against one of the top defenses in the league. We didn’t pick up the blitz all night. Fitchner’s gameplan was ridiculously bad, not giving our offense even a chance the entire first half. What did you expect Duck to do?

[Craic]

Game Balls:


Offense: None

HM but no GB in loss:

Matt Feiler: His hustle kept them in this game on that INT.
Conner: Did he ever look good on a few of those runs.

I'm tempted to give an HM to Washington and Johnson for what they did, but the problem is what they didn't do. I felt as though the WR corp could have made a better effort, especially on a couple of the INTs. (But see Duck below)

Bosworth: 49 yard FG that would have been good for 65. Wow.



Defense: Yes. Shouldn't have to say anything else.

Goats:


Offense:

Duck: Well, we've seen what his bad games looks like, now, and it's not pretty. I was okay with the first INT. 3rd down, he takes a shot and it's intercepted a few yards short of the redzone. In short, a touchback plus two or three yards. I'm fine with that. His other ones, however . . . sure, the WR should have fought a bit harder on a couple of them to get to the ball and knock it down, but that doesn't excuse the bad passes. Still, so far, Duck at his worst is better than normal Mason R. So . . .

O-line except for Feiler. What was that? I'm starting to wonder just much Le'Veon Bell covered for this offensive line with his running style.


Defense: Not a one.

S/Ts: Jordan Berry. Two games. Two big mistakes. The first one almost cost us last game. This one did cost us (or helped add up to a final tally of a loss).

[teegre]

The Bills D-line has grove R1 picks. Not picks like Mark Barron, but actual, legitimate good players. They routinely make opposing O-lines look bad. A couple of SCREENS might have slowed them down. Maybe.

[DesertSteel]

Paxton Lynch anyone??

Loss is on Berry and Duck.

[Craic]

Paxton Lynch anyone??

Loss is on Berry and Duck.

No thanks. I think we ride with the duck the rest of the way.

[steelreserve]

Biggest goat was the wildcat.

Berry was a real shitty fox, practically handed them a free score, which is unacceptable for a kicker.

Duck does not get off the hook for both of those INTs late in the game - on one of them he had Washington wide open for a TD but forced the ball into double coverage instead. That one was on him all the way, a poor decision that may have cost us our best shot to win the game.

Diontae Johnson gets a goat too for his two fumbles. This guy is a playmaker, but he might set a record for fumbles. He really has to work on that shit. Four fumbles as a team is complete garbage as well. We could have had eight turnovers if we didn't get some really lucky bounces.

For game balls, Conner was the only one on offense that was even close ... Watt obviously on defense, and probably Heyward.

What a disappointment. I knew this was going to be a more difficult game than the past couple, but god damn, this offense reminded me of the really bad 49ers of the early 2000s, when you had dickheads like Ken Dorsey and Steve Stenstrom floundering around and flinging the ball into the dirt.

[stillers4me]

Just because.......

1206389531169239041

[86WARD]

Just because.......

1206389531169239041

Lol...priceless.

[DesertSteel]

With journeyman like Ryan Fitzpatrick, this team wins the Super Bowl.

[Six Rings]

Lots of goats. When you turn the ball over 5-6 times you aren't winning.

Coaching staff. Terrible calls on offense, including that monstrosity James Conner to WR hand off near the goal line. No more Wildcat as a go to. The team abandoned the run too soon.
OL. Way too much pressure on the QB as a group. Pouncey stood out in a bad way. Too many wild snaps. Got pushed backward too easily
Duck, though it wasn't all his fault, he made 2-3 really bad throws.
Berry. That turd punt cost us points.

Possible goat. The trining staff. What's up with Ju-Ju's injury?

Tip of the hat. The Bills defense is the best we've played and their coach McDermott should be coach of the year. The Bills 10-4? Yep.

[86WARD]

With journeyman like Ryan Fitzpatrick, this team wins the Super Bowl.

Been saying it for years...want a real back up? Have to pay around $5-8M/year for it. Foles, Fitzpatrick, Brissett...any of that...Foles was available several times as was Fitz...

[43Hitman]

Just because.......

1206389531169239041


Lol, that is awesome!

[EzraTank]

Offense was anemic. Hodges is better than Rudolph, but still not good. He killed us today.

But but there's a whole thread where people said he could be a starter in the NFL. When I said his arm strength wasn't there I was lectured on how arm strength isn't that important.

Those last two interceptions disagree with that. Horrible floaters and throws that good QB's can make on the move. Not only that he hit Washington deep on two balls that Washington had to slow down and wait on. Those were throws a healthy Ben (or good QB) make so the receiver can take it right to the house.

Look, I think Duck is a cool dude and I'm happy he gives us a shot at winning but he clearly is NOT the future nor is Rudolph. I just hope Ben can play next year so we have a few more years to address our future QB. It just sucks that our offense completely hit the shitter in less than two years and our anemic defense is finally legit. If Ben stayed healthy and AB didn't go full douche bag we easily would be a top seed this year.

[DesertSteel]

But but there's a whole thread where people said he could be a starter in the NFL. When I said his arm strength wasn't there I was lectured on how arm strength isn't that important.

Nobody is getting the genius label for saying Hodges isn't a future quality starter. Those of us who weren't trashing him were doing so out of optimism. Believe the best until it hits the fan. It hit the fan last night and I don't think it surprised anyone who was being optimistic.

[EzraTank]

Nobody is getting the genius label for saying Hodges isn't a future quality starter. Those of us who weren't trashing him were doing so out of optimism. Believe the best until it hits the fan. It hit the fan last night and I don't think it surprised anyone who was being optimistic.

There's not trashing someone and then blind optimism. I wasn't trashing him in the IS DUCK A STARTER thread either. I was just pointing out that he doesn't have the arm strength to be an NFL QB and was told arm strength isn't important. There were quite a few people in that thread that were saying Duck could be an NFL starter. Well last night we got a first hand look at why he isn't and it all had to do with this arm strength (or lack thereof).

SNF broke down all his throws this year and over 20 yards is was atrocious. Most of his throws were in the flat. Now is some of that on Fichtner? Absolutely, but a lot of it has to do with the fact he doesn't have the arm strength to throw down field. Again like I said above I think Duck is a cool dude and I'm happy he's managing games and giving us a shot but he's just not our future.

[GBMelBlount]

Nobody is getting the genius label for saying Hodges isn't a future quality starter. Those of us who weren't trashing him were doing so out of optimism. Believe the best until it hits the fan. It hit the fan last night and I don't think it surprised anyone who was being optimistic.

Duck was playing behind a mediocre line with below-average weapons against a top 5 defense.

I still think it is too early to say if he can be a quality starter long term or not.

[EzraTank]

Duck was playing behind a mediocre line with below-average weapons against a top 5 defense.

I still think it is too early to say if he can be a quality starter long term or not.

Come on, I like the guy too, but there is no way he's an NFL starter.

[teegre]

The last two INTs weren’t about arm strength; they were about poor choices.

Washington was open... because, the play was designed to get him open. Hodges (for whatever reason) ignored the first read AND didn’t see the obviousness of Washington’s openness.

The last throw was while running to his left. Not many QBs would be able to hit Washington on that play. What he should have done was hit the guy along the sideline and have one more pass attempt. That said, if he somehow manages to get another 5 yards on that pass, it’s a TD (because, Washington has slipped behind the defender).

[EzraTank]

The last two INTs weren’t about arm strength; they were about poor choices.

Washington was open... because, the play was designed to get him open. Hodges (for whatever reason) ignored the first read AND didn’t see the obviousness of Washington’s openness.

The last throw was while running to his left. Not many QBs would be able to hit Washington on that play. What he should have done was hit the guy along the sideline and have one more pass attempt. That said, if he somehow manages to get another 5 yards on that pass, it’s a TD (because, Washington has slipped behind the defender).

Sorry I disagree. I've seen Aaron Rodgers make that throw (on the last INT) before. The throw should have gone to the back corner of the endzone. Even the NBC guys said, "that needed Aaron Rodgers zip". I agree that he missed a cutting Washington on the first INT that would have at best got a first down or gone to the house.

I really do like that guy but like I said earlier he threw two balls that Washington caught earlier in the game that just didn't have anything on them and Washington had to slow down and wait for them. Had Washington caught them on the run he probably scores.

[The Bark]

I thought Connor looked good carrying the ball, averaging 5 yards a carry. Problem was, he only got 8 carries. Puzzling, but Fichtner probably deserves some blame there. Berry was awful punting, too. Looks like all the next draft picks, the ones we have left, should be on offensive players.

[Mojouw]

Duck was playing behind a mediocre line with below-average weapons against a top 5 defense.

I still think it is too early to say if he can be a quality starter long term or not.

I suspect it is not too early, but there is always hope. We can assess what Hodges has been able to do. He has been able to reach shouting distance of the low end of average against terrible defenses (Cards, Bengals, and surprisingly the Browns), looked a step above catatonic against a mediocre defense (Chargers) and was next to useless against a high quality defense (Bills). I suspect we can assume he cobbles together a win against the Jets and maybe gets a "Landry" against the Ravens JV in Week 17. That would leave the Wildcard round to determine if he makes immediate progress from last night. Then, of course, the offseason.

Right now, Hodges looks like the kind of QB that you just wish was a bit better. Hard worker, lots of moxie, awesome attitude, etc. Should make a great coach somewhere in 3 years.

[steel striker]

The defense is the only game ball almost had us the W and, my god the goats Berry, Fitchner, Duck. I really sick of the wild cat and, that's like 2 or 3 turnovers when they try to run that formation. The o-line was not good either and, I know the Bills defense is good. Still even with Duck's picks steelers still had chances in this game.

[Steeler-in-west]

Agreed on putting Fichtner on the goat list, no reason for the wildcat, and relying on Hodges arm too much. We need a new OC for next season, and a QB coach as well,

[DesertSteel]

The last two INTs weren’t about arm strength; they were about poor choices.

Washington was open... because, the play was designed to get him open. Hodges (for whatever reason) ignored the first read AND didn’t see the obviousness of Washington’s openness.

The last throw was while running to his left. Not many QBs would be able to hit Washington on that play. What he should have done was hit the guy along the sideline and have one more pass attempt. That said, if he somehow manages to get another 5 yards on that pass, it’s a TD (because, Washington has slipped behind the defender).
Bingo! Horrible, horrible decisions.

[Mojouw]

The last two INTs weren’t about arm strength; they were about poor choices.

Washington was open... because, the play was designed to get him open. Hodges (for whatever reason) ignored the first read AND didn’t see the obviousness of Washington’s openness.

The last throw was while running to his left. Not many QBs would be able to hit Washington on that play. What he should have done was hit the guy along the sideline and have one more pass attempt. That said, if he somehow manages to get another 5 yards on that pass, it’s a TD (because, Washington has slipped behind the defender).

I think that "arm strength" is a funny thing. The INT to Cain in the endzone wasn' t because the ball lacked zip, but because Hodges went to the wrong WR. But why did he go to that WR? Was it simply a poor decision and a misread of a coverage? Or was it a player not being confident in his ability to throw a 20 yard rope down the hash through the teeth of the Bills defense to a streaking Washington? For the final INT, not many guys can make that off-platform all raw arm strength throw. But at least a third of the league can. This is the NFL, we are talking about flat-out ridiculous feats of strength and agility on a weekly basis. Further, the INT to White earlier in the game was an "arm strength" issue. Sure, it is almost never a good decision to throw an out route across your body to the wide side of the field against the other team's best CB, BUT the right amount of arm strength muscles that throw 2 yards further outside and DJ gets to it instead of White.

What I saw last night was a QB who has serious arm strength concerns at the NFL level BUT is not sure what he can and can not get away with yet. Basically he was able to work around his arm strength at the FCS level and is still figuring that out in real-time at the NFL level. But he certainly took a pass on several throws that were there to be had last night. Looked like a QB who was unsure of his arm. Contrast that with a guy like Ben. Ben has never been unsure of his ability to rifle the ball into a small window in his entire life. Both for good and bad.

[Moose]

Goat.... Berry for his PATHETIC PUNTING.. ( unload this guy) All night long, especially his 20 yrd that gave Bill a 40yrd field and eventually 7 pts (game).
Fitchner for his play calling.

Ball.... Watt

[steelreserve]

I suspect it is not too early, but there is always hope. We can assess what Hodges has been able to do. He has been able to reach shouting distance of the low end of average against terrible defenses (Cards, Bengals, and surprisingly the Browns), looked a step above catatonic against a mediocre defense (Chargers) and was next to useless against a high quality defense (Bills). I suspect we can assume he cobbles together a win against the Jets and maybe gets a "Landry" against the Ravens JV in Week 17. That would leave the Wildcard round to determine if he makes immediate progress from last night. Then, of course, the offseason.

Right now, Hodges looks like the kind of QB that you just wish was a bit better. Hard worker, lots of moxie, awesome attitude, etc. Should make a great coach somewhere in 3 years.

You may be on to something there. Much as I would like to give Hodges a chance, as of now he seems to be a backup who can barely get you by, but nothing more.

I really wish there was a way to make Rudolph and Hodges into one player. Rudolph has the ability to be a good QB, but can't deal with the speed of the pro game, and that will likely always be a problem. Hodges can deal with the speed of the game and has the guts to make the throws, but struggles against NFL competition. Put them together and you'd have one great quarterback and ... Nathan Peterman, I guess.

[Fire Goodell]

Watt had a hell of a game. I thought Conner was good too, but they didn't give him many touches. Probably since coming back from injuries and all, but he's clearly the best RB we got right now.

[86WARD]

I think Watt is easily DPOY. Is there another player in the league playing at his level?

[EzraTank]

I think that "arm strength" is a funny thing. The INT to Cain in the endzone wasn' t because the ball lacked zip, but because Hodges went to the wrong WR. But why did he go to that WR? Was it simply a poor decision and a misread of a coverage? Or was it a player not being confident in his ability to throw a 20 yard rope down the hash through the teeth of the Bills defense to a streaking Washington? For the final INT, not many guys can make that off-platform all raw arm strength throw. But at least a third of the league can. This is the NFL, we are talking about flat-out ridiculous feats of strength and agility on a weekly basis. Further, the INT to White earlier in the game was an "arm strength" issue. Sure, it is almost never a good decision to throw an out route across your body to the wide side of the field against the other team's best CB, BUT the right amount of arm strength muscles that throw 2 yards further outside and DJ gets to it instead of White.

What I saw last night was a QB who has serious arm strength concerns at the NFL level BUT is not sure what he can and can not get away with yet. Basically he was able to work around his arm strength at the FCS level and is still figuring that out in real-time at the NFL level. But he certainly took a pass on several throws that were there to be had last night. Looked like a QB who was unsure of his arm. Contrast that with a guy like Ben. Ben has never been unsure of his ability to rifle the ball into a small window in his entire life. Both for good and bad.

QFT.

This is what I was saying above and last week in the HODGES QB thread.

[Mojouw]

QFT.

This is what I was saying above and last week in the HODGES QB thread.

Yeah. But that was just because you were not believing in the Duck and rooting for him to fail. Or so I have also been told.

In all seriousness, there is below average QB play, there is bottom few percent of QBs across the league, and then there is what the Steelers have gotten from Rudolph and Hodges. The fact that they have not been comically blown out each and every week is a testament to the superiority of the defense and the calming approach of the coaching staff.

[fansince'76]

I think Watt is easily DPOY. Is there another player in the league playing at his level?

Watch Gilmore get it because...Patriots. :rolleyes:

He wasn't even playing last night but Collinsworth sure spent enough time blowing him anyway. I've been listening to Steelers games on radio a LOT this year - now I remember a huge reason why. I sure as hell haven't missed listening to pencil-neck. :coffee:

[st33lersguy]

I think Watt is easily DPOY. Is there another player in the league playing at his level?

It should be him or Minkah, though I think Watt may have been the higher impact player the past few weeks (but then again that may be more the case of him making more splash plays the last few weeks, I bet Minkah's been preventing a lot of deep stuff we just haven't been seeing it, if someone has been seeing that please reply).

[st33lersguy]

Watch Gilmore get it because...Patriots. :rolleyes:

He wasn't even playing last night but Collinsworth sure spent enough time blowing him anyway. I've been listening to Steelers games on radio a LOT this year - now I remember a huge reason why. I sure as hell haven't missed listening to pencil-neck. :coffee:

Sadly, you're probably right because
1. ZOMG, Patriots
2. Minkah and TJ split the Steeler vote
3. Aaron Donald fatigue (the non-steeler most deserving of the award)

Of course it stinks because you can take Gilmore out of the lineup and the Pats would still coast through their season. Take TJ out of the lineup and the defense becomes worse especially in pass rush, and of course we all saw how much of a dumpster fire this defense had been prior to the Minkah trade

[teegre]

I think that "arm strength" is a funny thing. The INT to Cain in the endzone wasn' t because the ball lacked zip, but because Hodges went to the wrong WR. But why did he go to that WR? Was it simply a poor decision and a misread of a coverage? Or was it a player not being confident in his ability to throw a 20 yard rope down the hash through the teeth of the Bills defense to a streaking Washington? For the final INT, not many guys can make that off-platform all raw arm strength throw. But at least a third of the league can. This is the NFL, we are talking about flat-out ridiculous feats of strength and agility on a weekly basis. Further, the INT to White earlier in the game was an "arm strength" issue. Sure, it is almost never a good decision to throw an out route across your body to the wide side of the field against the other team's best CB, BUT the right amount of arm strength muscles that throw 2 yards further outside and DJ gets to it instead of White.

What I saw last night was a QB who has serious arm strength concerns at the NFL level BUT is not sure what he can and can not get away with yet. Basically he was able to work around his arm strength at the FCS level and is still figuring that out in real-time at the NFL level. But he certainly took a pass on several throws that were there to be had last night. Looked like a QB who was unsure of his arm. Contrast that with a guy like Ben. Ben has never been unsure of his ability to rifle the ball into a small window in his entire life. Both for good and bad.

It might have been a metacognitive choice by Duck to make the throw to Cain (as opposed to throwing to the wide open Washington); that is indeed a possibility. But, IMO, Duck did what so many young QBs do: he locked in on one guy and didn’t survey the field.

Sure, 10-12 starters could have made that second throw to Washington. But, 20-22 other starters couldn’t have. Duck is in among the lower 2/3 of the starters.

SUMMATION:
I’m not saying Duck has a good arm/I’m not saying he doesn’t lack arm strength. What I am saying is that those two plays aren’t good examples if one wants to “prove” his lack in arm strength.

[EzraTank]

Watch Gilmore get it because...Patriots. :rolleyes:

He wasn't even playing last night but Collinsworth sure spent enough time blowing him anyway. I've been listening to Steelers games on radio a LOT this year - now I remember a huge reason why. I sure as hell haven't missed listening to pencil-neck. :coffee:

It's easy to cover plays like Gilmore does since he knows the play that's coming.

[cold-hard-steel]

It might have been a metacognitive choice by Duck to make the throw to Cain (as opposed to throwing to the wide open Washington); that is indeed a possibility. But, IMO, Duck did what so many young QBs do: he locked in on one guy and didn’t survey the field.

Sure, 10-12 starters could have made that second throw to Washington. But, 20-22 other starters couldn’t have. Duck is in among the lower 2/3 of the starters.

SUMMATION:
I’m not saying Duck has a good arm/I’m not saying he doesn’t lack arm strength. What I am saying is that those two plays aren’t good examples if one wants to “prove” his lack in arm strength.

So you are basically saying "you never use a drill bit designed for wood to drill through concrete". I think I know what you mean.

[pczach]

It might have been a metacognitive choice by Duck to make the throw to Cain (as opposed to throwing to the wide open Washington); that is indeed a possibility. But, IMO, Duck did what so many young QBs do: he locked in on one guy and didn’t survey the field.

Sure, 10-12 starters could have made that second throw to Washington. But, 20-22 other starters couldn’t have. Duck is in among the lower 2/3 of the starters.

SUMMATION:
I’m not saying Duck has a good arm/I’m not saying he doesn’t lack arm strength. What I am saying is that those two plays aren’t good examples if one wants to “prove” his lack in arm strength.



You are correct. Those INTs had nothing to do with arm strength.

Here's the part of that play that nobody seems to understand. He didn't make the wrong read. He made a throw out of desperation because he was just trying to make a play, but just threw it up hoping the safety wouldn't get there.

There was a single high safety on that play. He had two WRs lined up left running deep routes...one running each side of the field. If he used his eyes or a pump fake to move the safety, he had the throw to Rudolph. He made up his mind early and either forgot because he was stressed with the way the game had been going for him, or he simply doesn't understand how to manipulate defenders. That is something that comes in time if he is capable of handling all the stresses of playing.

Some guys never figure it out. They can do it in practice. They can go over the playbook and describe everything they have to do on a play. They can go through walkthroughs and simulate what they will do in certain situations...but some guys can't do it when they are in the action. They freeze. They simply are not capable of processing all the information quickly enough and they are incapable of holding up under the pressure. They need to find out if Hodges is capable of doing enough quarterback things under stress to know if he can be a legitimate starting option.

A quarterback like Ben would have probably looked the safety off and made a big play. The defense looked like it was set up for Duck to fail. A quality quarterback sees that defense and looks at that same defensive set as a big play waiting to happen. That's the difference. Ben probably would have known pre-snap where he was going with the ball and would have moved the safety where he wanted him to go. Remember, there was one single safety on top. That is a gimme if you know what you are looking at and how to defeat it.

[Fire Goodell]

With journeyman like Ryan Fitzpatrick, this team wins the Super Bowl.

You're always in it with Fitzy

[teegre]

You are correct. Those INTs had nothing to do with arm strength.

Here's the part of that play that nobody seems to understand. He didn't make the wrong read. He made a throw out of desperation because he was just trying to make a play, but just threw it up hoping the safety wouldn't get there.

There was a single high safety on that play. He had two WRs lined up left running deep routes...one running each side of the field. If he used his eyes or a pump fake to move the safety, he had the throw to Rudolph. He made up his mind early and either forgot because he was stressed with the way the game had been going for him, or he simply doesn't understand how to manipulate defenders. That is something that comes in time if he is capable of handling all the stresses of playing.

Some guys never figure it out. They can do it in practice. They can go over the playbook and describe everything they have to do on a play. They can go through walkthroughs and simulate what they will do in certain situations...but some guys can't do it when they are in the action. They freeze. They simply are not capable of processing all the information quickly enough and they are incapable of holding up under the pressure. They need to find out if Hodges is capable of doing enough quarterback things under stress to know if he can be a legitimate starting option.

A quarterback like Ben would have probably looked the safety off and made a big play. The defense looked like it was set up for Duck to fail. A quality quarterback sees that defense and looks at that same defensive set as a big play waiting to happen. That's the difference. Ben probably would have known pre-snap where he was going with the ball and would have moved the safety where he wanted him to go. Remember, there was one single safety on top. That is a gimme if you know what you are looking at and how to defeat it.

Outstanding :nod:

[Mojouw]

Perhaps I have identified two plays that are not the best examples of what I am getting at - because I agree with the breakdowns and thoughts that many have posted here.

There is something with Hodges and his game in that he refuses to go more than 4 yards downfield between the numbers. I think he only wants to throw to the sideline where he can put his guy between the ball and the defender because he has little confidence in his arm at this level.

No idea if I am right and it is likely thinking about it too much!

[pczach]

Perhaps I have identified two plays that are not the best examples of what I am getting at - because I agree with the breakdowns and thoughts that many have posted here.

There is something with Hodges and his game in that he refuses to go more than 4 yards downfield between the numbers. I think he only wants to throw to the sideline where he can put his guy between the ball and the defender because he has little confidence in his arm at this level.

No idea if I am right and it is likely thinking about it too much!



I agree with you. I've noticed the same thing. He almost never throws the ball in the middle of the field.

I'm not sure why he refuses to do it, but your thoughts make as much sense as anything else I can think of.

[Mojouw]

I agree with you. I've noticed the same thing. He almost never throws the ball in the middle of the field.

I'm not sure why he refuses to do it, but your thoughts make as much sense as anything else I can think of.

I think that is why the way "arm strength" is typically talked about in the pre-draft process is SOOO frustrating. For me, it isn't about how far a guy can throw it. It is about what he trusts his arm to be able to accomplish. If that receiver flashes open down the far has between the CB and the FS, does he trust that he can zip it in there? Does he trust that he can throw that square out to the sideline? What about the "Cover 2 hole" between the CB and the safety?

Right now, I do not think Hodges trusts his ability to do that. Of course, neither did Rudolph. Better and more knowledgeable football knowers than me will have to attempt to discern if that is because they simply are not physically able to, or if they just are not mentally ready to.

I wish "arm strength" talked more about these kind of things. Rather than "OMG! He can throw so FAR!"

[pczach]

I think that is why the way "arm strength" is typically talked about in the pre-draft process is SOOO frustrating. For me, it isn't about how far a guy can throw it. It is about what he trusts his arm to be able to accomplish. If that receiver flashes open down the far has between the CB and the FS, does he trust that he can zip it in there? Does he trust that he can throw that square out to the sideline? What about the "Cover 2 hole" between the CB and the safety?

Right now, I do not think Hodges trusts his ability to do that. Of course, neither did Rudolph. Better and more knowledgeable football knowers than me will have to attempt to discern if that is because they simply are not physically able to, or if they just are not mentally ready to.

I wish "arm strength" talked more about these kind of things. Rather than "OMG! He can throw so FAR!"



Also, issues with arm strength are usually overcome if a QB can make throws with anticipation. If a QB has a decent arm and throws the ball before the receiver makes his break on the route, it is unlikely the defender will be able to react to the ball quickly enough because his eyes are on the receiver. It also depends on what coverage he is throwing against. In man coverage, the defenders will usually have his back to the play. In zone, the defenders will be facing the QB.

The strange thing is that more arm strength is required to throw to the boundaries. If you're throwing a deep out to the wide side of the field, that requires a fastball to get it there on time. The INT that White had on the sideline was the type of throw you would think Duck would be afraid to make if he didn't trust his arm.

[teegre]

IMO, Duck throwing that INT on the sideline was more about him not throwing to the correct spot. That ball should have been on the outside of the receiver, so that either the receiver catches it OR the pass goes out of bounds. Instead, Duck threw it two yards inside, right where the defender could get the ball.

That throw could indeed be about arm strength (or lack thereof), because Aaron Rodgers zips that ball and the defender has no chance to break on it. Maybe. Because, with that inside ball placement, even a rocket pass has more of a chance of being intercepted (than if it had been thrown outside).

I think mojoUW is on to something about the middle of the field, though. At one point, Josh Allen threw a ball right between two defenders. Any amount of inaccuracy would have resulted in a batted pass (or an INT). Allen drilled it right to the receiver... with all of the confidence of Brett Favre. I’ve yet to see Duck do that.

Do not get me wrong: Duck has thrown up plenty of 50/50 balls, but none right down the middle (looking into the teeth of the defense).

[86WARD]

Also, issues with arm strength are usually overcome if a QB can make throws with anticipation. If a QB has a decent arm and throws the ball before the receiver makes his break on the route, it is unlikely the defender will be able to react to the ball quickly enough because his eyes are on the receiver. It also depends on what coverage he is throwing against. In man coverage, the defenders will usually have his back to the play. In zone, the defenders will be facing the QB.

The strange thing is that more arm strength is required to throw to the boundaries. If you're throwing a deep out to the wide side of the field, that requires a fastball to get it there on time. The INT that White had on the sideline was the type of throw you would think Duck would be afraid to make if he didn't trust his arm.

He made the exact same throw for a completion later in the game.

[teegre]

He made the exact same throw for a completion later in the game.

QUESTION: Hiw was the ball placement on that completion?

[Mojouw]

He made the exact same throw for a completion later in the game.

That throw was not across his body and was to the near side of the field. Same route. And can we talk about how DJ was just smoking one of the best CBs in the game all evening?

[pczach]

He made the exact same throw for a completion later in the game.



Exactly. That's why it's odd to even think he is unsure of his arm strength. However, teeger and Mojouw make good points about accuracy and the platform from which he made each throw.

[Mojouw]

That throw was not across his body and was to the near side of the field. Same route. And can we talk about how DJ was just smoking one of the best CBs in the game all evening?

Nevermind. I think I have the two throws backwards in my head! But the answer to Teegre's question is the key. One was behind the WR and towards the field side of the play and one was ahead of the WR and to the boundary side of the play. I'm gonna let you all puzzle out which throw had which result.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Exactly. That's why it's odd to even think he is unsure of his arm strength. However, teeger and Mojouw make good points about accuracy and the platform from which he made each throw.

Hodges has decent intermediate arm strength, he doesn't have a big arm to go deep or a real strong arm like some of the top QB's. I think he has decent enough footwork in getting thru his reads and that helps with velocity.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Hodges has decent intermediate arm strength, he doesn't have a big arm to go deep or a real strong arm like some of the top QB's. I think he has decent enough footwork in getting thru his reads and that helps with velocity. Big arm qb's are overrated and most with bigger arms overthrow the wr's going deep.

[86WARD]

Exactly. That's why it's odd to even think he is unsure of his arm strength. However, teeger and Mojouw make good points about accuracy and the platform from which he made each throw.

That’s the point of my comment. I don’t think he is unsure of his arm strength. I think he’s either being told not to throw in the middle of the field, he’s not comfortable with the reads or he isn’t flat out seeing it. Someone who watches the game films would have to look and see if there’s opportunities in the middle. Maybe there just aren’t a lot of routes being run in the middle?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That is a really general statement. I would like to see some stats or proof that most QB's with deep throwing ability overthrow receivers.

Also, this seems similar to saying..."Home Run hitters are overrated because they strike out more often. Just give me a bunch of middle infielders with warning track power on my MLB team "

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

That is a really general statement. I would like to see some stats or proof that most QB's with deep throwing ability overthrow receivers.

Also, this seems similar to saying..."Home Run hitters are overrated because they strike out more often. Just give me a bunch of middle infielders with warning track power on my MLB team " Yes I guess my comment was to general and not all do. Jeff George comes to mind for one that did. Ben did last year and didn't have his timing right and a lot of deep balls was over thrown. I'm not saying Ben was like that every year though.

[Mojouw]

That’s the point of my comment. I don’t think he is unsure of his arm strength. I think he’s either being told not to throw in the middle of the field, he’s not comfortable with the reads or he isn’t flat out seeing it. Someone who watches the game films would have to look and see if there’s opportunities in the middle. Maybe there just aren’t a lot of routes being run in the middle?

Last season, Ben lived and died over the middle of the field. So either Fichtner totally retooled the offense in general, or he is attempting to tailor it to strengths and mask weaknesses. Rudolph threw to the middle a great deal compared to Hodges. I, only my opinion, figure it is a combination of Hodges doesn't throw there and Fichtner is not going to demand his QB do something he is wholly uncomfortable with and has demonstrated zero ability to execute.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Last season, Ben lived and died over the middle of the field. So either Fichtner totally retooled the offense in general, or he is attempting to tailor it to strengths and mask weaknesses. Rudolph threw to the middle a great deal compared to Hodges. I, only my opinion, figure it is a combination of Hodges doesn't throw there and Fichtner is not going to demand his QB do something he is wholly uncomfortable with and has demonstrated zero ability to execute. We all know Tomlin said He hopes Duck don't kill us, well maybe him and Fichtner feel the middle is more prone to ints and they don't want Duck going there much.