Duck

[GBMelBlount]

3-0, his stats are good and he makes good decisions for this early in his career imo.

Can he be a legitimate starter in the nfl in your opinion?

[Fire Goodell]

Yes he can be. He’s basically doing what Ben was doing in his first year. Manage the game, pick up first downs, and when they drop 8 in the box, test them long

[GBMelBlount]

Please don't make him your avatar.

[JayC]

i don't think starter but a good insurance policy

[NCSteeler]

He's be a great backup for Ben the next couple of years.

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[43Hitman]

He had some very veteran like throws today. I'm not sure who said his arm wasn't very strong, but I didn't see it today. He put some of those balls(the ones he needed to) on a rope.

[st33lersguy]

Duck clearly has something there, hopefully it develops into full franchise QB.

[Craic]

3-0, his stats are good and he makes good decisions for this early in his career imo.

Can he be a legitimate starter in the nfl in your opinion?

In my opinion, it's too early to tell. Just as I was down on Mason but willing to give him time, so I'm up on Duck, but also aware I have to give him to develop and hit the rough spots and see how he perseveres. However, at the very least, he has enough tools to start games in the NFL. But, does that extend to having enough to be a designated starter by plan rather than by emergency? I don't know. That's what I want to see. But, at this point, there's not a lot that says he can't be.

[GBMelBlount]

In my opinion, it's too early to tell.

Just as I was down on Mason but willing to give him time, so I'm up on Duck, but also aware I have to give him to develop and hit the rough spots and see how he perseveres. However, at the very least, he has enough tools to start games in the NFL. But, does that extend to having enough to be a designated starter by plan rather than by emergency? I don't know. That's what I want to see.

But, at this point, there's not a lot that says he can't be.

I agree Preach. It is very early, but he has not made any major rookie mistakes.

Only time will tell.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zfgoJzOCgg

[Craic]

I agree Preach. It is very early, but he has not made any major rookie mistakes.

Only time will tell.


As I said in the Gameball thread, he made some veteran moves today. His choices to throw the ball away or take a sack or run at what seemed like the right times; his protection of the ball other than the strip-sack (still don't blame him for that); and the way he dropped some of those balls in for his receivers . . . it was pretty impressive.

[cubanstogie]

I think he can only get better. The announcers even stated he had more playbook to use now that he is getting reps. Thats something I really took for granted, but he had been limited and still looks much more confident than Rudolph. That TD to DJ was legit. DJ was covered and Duck put it in perfect spot. He obviously needs some playmakers and a solid D but he is making less mistakes than Ben made his rookie year. I don't think he has the upside that Ben had but its hard to say this guy cant be a solid QB. Im not ready to give him the reigns yet but pretty pumped with this guy so far.

- - - Updated - - -

I think he can only get better. The announcers even stated he had more playbook to use now that he is getting reps. Thats something I really took for granted, but he had been limited and still looks much more confident than Rudolph. That TD to DJ was legit. DJ was covered and Duck put it in perfect spot. He obviously needs some playmakers and a solid D but he is making less mistakes than Ben made his rookie year. I don't think he has the upside that Ben had but its hard to say this guy cant be a solid QB. Im not ready to give him the reigns yet but pretty pumped with this guy so far.

[CV1]

When he starts I actually believe he can do enough for the team to win.

I don’t need flashy, I don’t need pedigree, I just want a QB to be confident in himself and his abilities and reads and preparation... Duck is doing just that.


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[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

As most know love him since preseason and said it then when I watch him. There is just something special about him. Anyways it is his team now and we will get a good look at him before the season is out.

[tube517]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELT7oMjXYAIQ2sa?format=jpg&name=medium

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELT7oMjXYAIQ2sa?format=jpg&name=medium I hate those memes but that was funny!

[tube517]

I hate those memes but that was funny!

I hate them also but this was goofy funny

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I hate them also but this was goofy funny It was. :tt02:

[tube517]

1203834336052572165


Duck channeled some Big Ben in this play.

[Steelermania]

As most know love him since preseason and said it then when I watch him. There is just something special about him. Anyways it is his team now and we will get a good look at him before the season is out.
I
saw it in the preseason as well. He has IT! Some might call it moxie, but I saw it right away. I never saw it in 4 years of Landry Jones. If Duck was 2 inches taller, with a bit stronger arm, he'd have been a high draft pick. Still, his intangibles might be enough to give him a decently high ceiling.

[steelreserve]

He definitely looks like he is learning from the experience and picking up the pro game, something you couldn't say for Rudolph. Duck has gone from gutsy but wild, to looking almost comfortable.

Granted, this has been against some pretty wretched competition, but I have seen us go through plenty of backups who looked a lot worse against the same.

Who knows if he is starter material - if he keeps improving at this rate, he will be. If not, he is a backup who can win a game for you, and that is still a valuable thing to have.

[Steeler-in-west]

Yeah, too early to tell, but his stature, only 6’? I can’t see a viable long term starter at that height. He’d have to become an extraordinary qb to pull that off (like Russell Wilson).

I can totally see him as a solid backup to Ben next year, and possibly holding down the fort until the next franchisee arrives

[GoSlash27]

Yes, he's starter material. He may not be pro- bowl caliber, but he's good enough to start.

[tom444]

Go Duck!

https://goimprints.s3.amazonaws.com/images/products/6097244/football-player-rubber-duck-1.jpg

[NCSteeler]

The bills defense will be a good test for him .

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[DesertSteel]

It took Tommy Brady twice as many passes to throw for the same amount of yards yesterday - against a horrible Chiefs defense.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

i don't think starter but a good insurance policy

I agree. Right now he is making the throws he is supposed to, like the screens, RB wheel, crossing routes, slants, etc. The downfield shots are mostly being converted into PI calls, because guys like Washington are fighting for the football and drawing the penalty. The projection for Hodges in his draft profile was possible backup and I think that is what his ceiling is.

[Moose]

I'm giving him the 'franchise' possible look right now. He's doing everything asked of so far, he's getting deeper in the play book, the player's are liking him and trusting him, coaches are liking and trusting him, he know's what to do with the ball when in trouble, not making stupid mistakes and/or throws, seems to read the defenses pretty well, can get out of the pocket sensibly when forced, and it looks like he can take a 'hit' without breaking like glass. I think with the experience of the remaining teams ( some good teams) he will only get smarter. I do like him for our back up right now for Ben, and by the time Ben decides to turn it all in I believe Duck will be able to step in without missing a step. Just my opinion.

[Mojouw]

Again, I only saw the highlights, but there is good and bad right now with Duck. He is aggressive, mobile, and fearless in a positive way. He is also fairly quick to make a decision. The negative is that he still moves around in the pocket weird and hangs his o-line out to dry a bit. Additionally, he is slow to get through all the reads and often misses guys flashing open in the middle of the field short on crossers as he stays on his primary too long. But, he is doing that to a degree that I think is reasonable for any young rookie QB -- not the exaggerated degree that Rudolph was.

Great story. Seems like a good guy. Easy as heck to root for. Career NFL back-up.

[steel striker]

He is doing great.

[86WARD]

Quack Quack!!

[Fire Goodell]

I don't know how some people say he doesn't have arm strength, it's not a problem. He doesn't have a cannon but he can still test defenses long. He threw some lasers yesterday.

The things i like most about his game is his anticipation with the throws, and he goes through his progressions FAST. When Rudolph is on his 2nd read, Hodges likely already is on his 3rd or 4th read. I'm starting to think that maybe this is an ability that can't be learned but you just have, all QB's I've seen play always had that ability to go through progressions quickly from the get go. Meanwhile QB's that tend to lock on to their first read tend to be plagued with that issue for most if not all of their careers.

I'm excited for the Buffalo game, that's gonna be the real test for Hodges if he can move the ball against a top 5 defense.

[86WARD]

His pocket prescience is leaps and bounds better than Rudolph. Just a couple incompletions yesterday were actually positive plays in my book as he escaped the collapsing pocket, avoided the sack and was able to unload the ball...

[Fire Goodell]

His pocket prescience is leaps and bounds better than Rudolph. Just a couple incompletions yesterday were actually positive plays in my book as he escaped the collapsing pocket, avoided the sack and was able to unload the ball...

Despite a couple throwaways, he completed 84% yesterday. That is totally money.

[86WARD]

Pass placement was very nice too.

I think his rating was 117+ for yesterday.

[JnK]

This kid is carrying himself well and has a fire in his gut to succeed. I would not be surprised to see him take us on a deep playoff run, especially with the way our defense is playing. Each week he seems to look a little more comfortable out there.

[EzraTank]

3-0, his stats are good and he makes good decisions for this early in his career imo.

Can he be a legitimate starter in the nfl in your opinion?

No. He lacks the arm strength. He's got all the other tools but he's not an NFL starter.

[Fire Goodell]

No. He lacks the arm strength. He's got all the other tools but he's not an NFL starter.

He's not lacking arm strength, he's had some throws that went 50+ air yards. Sure he's not gonna throw it out of the stadium like Mahomes, but arm strength is overrated when it comes to being a good quarterback.

I will take a QB with accuracy, ball placement, and quick progressions over a cannon armed QB without those.

[Mojouw]

Look at the third down conversion rate and the red zone TD rate. Those are still well below the mark for a viable long-term NFL starter. If you are struggling to extend drives and score in the red zone against the Arizona Cardinals, it is only going to get worse from there.

Can Hodges, grow and progress -- of course. But I would pump the brakes a bit on the Duck hype train. From what I can tell he has attempted about 32 3rd down passes and only 11 have netted a first down. The better offenses in the league are converting 40-45%, Steelers under Hodges are at 35% (https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct).

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct - Dead last in the entire league. Even if you look at the last 3 games (the Hodges starts) they are converting redzone opportunities into TDs at 18%. That is 1 in 5. The next worst team in the past 3 games is 25 percentage points higher! https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

I am rooting for Hodges, just as I was for Rudolph, but every single underlying statistic indicates that Hodges winning results are not sustainable.

[Dissolv]

The flip side of that is that he is doing better than our only other option.

[HollywoodSteel]

Look at the third down conversion rate and the red zone TD rate. Those are still well below the mark for a viable long-term NFL starter. If you are struggling to extend drives and score in the red zone against the Arizona Cardinals, it is only going to get worse from there.

Can Hodges, grow and progress -- of course. But I would pump the brakes a bit on the Duck hype train. From what I can tell he has attempted about 32 3rd down passes and only 11 have netted a first down. The better offenses in the league are converting 40-45%, Steelers under Hodges are at 35% (https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct).

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct - Dead last in the entire league. Even if you look at the last 3 games (the Hodges starts) they are converting redzone opportunities into TDs at 18%. That is 1 in 5. The next worst team in the past 3 games is 25 percentage points higher! https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

I am rooting for Hodges, just as I was for Rudolph, but every single underlying statistic indicates that Hodges winning results are not sustainable.

All totally valid points.

I didn’t actually get to see the game, I just followed along on ESPN game cast and watched some highlights, so I’ll trust you guys to do the actual analysis. Would you say that a big reason for lack of TDs is Duck himself? Is he being inaccurate? Not seeing things? That type of thing?

I guess I’m wondering if the main problem is the QB, or if it’s mostly something else that can be more easily corrected.

I’m just looking for reasons to be optimistic even though I know I should temper my expectations. We are playing some serious nobodies on offense, but fortunately they have been coming through for us here and there. And when Juju comes back, maybe that makes a real difference.

What does give me some hope is the recent improvement by Washington, the back up RBs, and the steady emergence of Diontae Johnson as a star. I really think this guy is going to take on more of the AB role as the #1, allowing Juju to be more of what he was at his best.

Will it all come together perfectly this year with Duck under center? Probably not. But if every week can be a little better than the last, we at least have a shot to be competitive.

What I’m asking is, are you seeing serious limitations with Duck that simply won’t be overcome this year? Or, with better play calling and the other players improving around him, can he be good enough to make some of the plays that haven’t been made over the past few week?

[AtlantaDan]

Look at the third down conversion rate and the red zone TD rate. Those are still well below the mark for a viable long-term NFL starter. If you are struggling to extend drives and score in the red zone against the Arizona Cardinals, it is only going to get worse from there.

Can Hodges, grow and progress -- of course. But I would pump the brakes a bit on the Duck hype train. From what I can tell he has attempted about 32 3rd down passes and only 11 have netted a first down. The better offenses in the league are converting 40-45%, Steelers under Hodges are at 35% (https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct).

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct - Dead last in the entire league. Even if you look at the last 3 games (the Hodges starts) they are converting redzone opportunities into TDs at 18%. That is 1 in 5. The next worst team in the past 3 games is 25 percentage points higher! https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

I am rooting for Hodges, just as I was for Rudolph, but every single underlying statistic indicates that Hodges winning results are not sustainable.

Agreed the offense remains abysmal, but we are dealing with the following skill position players as of the depth chart last August - #4 QB, backup RBs, #3 WR, rookie WR third round draft choice,and other WRs from practice squad alomg with other teams' scrap heaps.

So this statement fits the performance of this offense - "it is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

Nobody believes this roster is the long term plan for a sustainable offense but instead what is available for a stunning shot at the playoffs - you work with what you have, not with what you want

[DesertSteel]

Look at the third down conversion rate and the red zone TD rate. Those are still well below the mark for a viable long-term NFL starter. If you are struggling to extend drives and score in the red zone against the Arizona Cardinals, it is only going to get worse from there.

Can Hodges, grow and progress -- of course. But I would pump the brakes a bit on the Duck hype train. From what I can tell he has attempted about 32 3rd down passes and only 11 have netted a first down. The better offenses in the league are converting 40-45%, Steelers under Hodges are at 35% (https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct).

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct - Dead last in the entire league. Even if you look at the last 3 games (the Hodges starts) they are converting redzone opportunities into TDs at 18%. That is 1 in 5. The next worst team in the past 3 games is 25 percentage points higher! https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

I am rooting for Hodges, just as I was for Rudolph, but every single underlying statistic indicates that Hodges winning results are not sustainable.
A lot of that seems to be 3rd and long too due to conservative play calling and a poor running game. It'd be helpful to add that context to the narrative. How many of those 45% teams are doing it on 3rd and 7? My guess is not many. I don't think you can isolate a stat and get the full picture.

That said, he's just a backup until proven otherwise.

[Mojouw]

All totally valid points.

I didn’t actually get to see the game, I just followed along on ESPN game cast and watched some highlights, so I’ll trust you guys to do the actual analysis. Would you say that a big reason for lack of TDs is Duck himself? Is he being inaccurate? Not seeing things? That type of thing?

I guess I’m wondering if the main problem is the QB, or if it’s mostly something else that can be more easily corrected.

I’m just looking for reasons to be optimistic even though I know I should temper my expectations. We are playing some serious nobodies on offense, but fortunately they have been coming through for us here and there. And when Juju comes back, maybe that makes a real difference.

What does give me some hope is the recent improvement by Washington, the back up RBs, and the steady emergence of Diontae Johnson as a star. I really think this guy is going to take on more of the AB role as the #1, allowing Juju to be more of what he was at his best.

Will it all come together perfectly this year with Duck under center? Probably not. But if every week can be a little better than the last, we at least have a shot to be competitive.

What I’m asking is, are you seeing serious limitations with Duck that simply won’t be overcome this year? Or, with better play calling and the other players improving around him, can he be good enough to make some of the plays that haven’t been made over the past few week?


Agreed the offense remains abysmal, but we are dealing with the following skill position players as of the depth chart last August - #4 QB, backup RBs, #3 WR, rookie WR third round draft choice,and other WRs from practice squad alomg with other teams' scrap heaps.

So this statement fits the performance of this offense - "it is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

Nobody believes this roster is the long term plan for a sustainable offense but instead what is available for a stunning shot at the playoffs - you work with what you have, not with what you want

I completely agree with everything you two are saying. Considering the situation, and as Dissolv pointed out, the alternative -- it is all gravy for 2019.

But just as the more I saw Mason Rudolph, the less I saw "NFL Starter", the same is from the bit of Hodges I have seen. I see a guy who can be a great back-up QB and then occasionally pop-up around the league as a "starter" with a hot-hand kinda run. Something on the order of Nick Foles, Case Keenum, Kelly Holcomb, the McCown brothers, etc. Excellent player to have on your roster and will likely be in the league a long time - -but unless he has a massive leap sometime in the next 5 weeks or during the off-season (Either or both is totally possible), he is not playing at "starting QB" level for me.

[AtlantaDan]

I completely agree with everything you two are saying. Considering the situation, and as Dissolv pointed out, the alternative -- it is all gravy for 2019.

But just as the more I saw Mason Rudolph, the less I saw "NFL Starter", the same is from the bit of Hodges I have seen. I see a guy who can be a great back-up QB and then occasionally pop-up around the league as a "starter" with a hot-hand kinda run. Something on the order of Nick Foles, Case Keenum, Kelly Holcomb, the McCown brothers, etc. Excellent player to have on your roster and will likely be in the league a long time - -but unless he has a massive leap sometime in the next 5 weeks or during the off-season (Either or both is totally possible), he is not playing at "starting QB" level for me.

I will take how Nick Foles stepping in for the Eagles' starting QB two years ago turned out :rolleyes: :drink:

[Mojouw]

I will take how Nick Foles stepping in for the Eagles' starting QB two years ago turned out :rolleyes: :drink:

Absolutely. Big Duck energy and all that. But I wouldn't turn around and give that same player $20+ million and the keys to my franchise.

[ALLD]

He's not lacking arm strength, he's had some throws that went 50+ air yards. Sure he's not gonna throw it out of the stadium like Mahomes, but arm strength is overrated when it comes to being a good quarterback.

I will take a QB with accuracy, ball placement, and quick progressions over a cannon armed QB without those.


Will need to change the game play to dink and dunk sometimes.

[AtlantaDan]

Absolutely. Big Duck energy and all that. But I wouldn't turn around and give that same player $20+ million and the keys to my franchise.

Nor did the Eagles

[86WARD]

Definitely some bad teams at the top of that 3rd down conversion list...

[Mojouw]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HodgDe00/splits/2019/

Here are Hodges splits. He hasn't been terrible on third down at all. It is actually third and medium that seems to mess this team up.

As to the bad teams on the conversion list, there are two in the top 1/3rd - Dallas and Indy. I would argue both of those teams lose games because of their defense not their offense.

All I am saying is that the 2019 Pittsburgh Steelers do not currently have an offense that can win multiple playoff games. They don't convert third downs reliably and they fail to consistently turn redzone trips into touchdowns. No matter how good your defense is the law of averages is going to eventually bite you square in the butt.

Until Hodges or another QB on this roster proves than can succeed in those two areas of the game I will remain optimistic and squarely in their corner, but highly skeptical of claims of "starter" or "franchise" QB.

[43Hitman]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HodgDe00/splits/2019/

Here are Hodges splits. He hasn't been terrible on third down at all. It is actually third and medium that seems to mess this team up.

As to the bad teams on the conversion list, there are two in the top 1/3rd - Dallas and Indy. I would argue both of those teams lose games because of their defense not their offense.

All I am saying is that the 2019 Pittsburgh Steelers do not currently have an offense that can win multiple playoff games. They don't convert third downs reliably and they fail to consistently turn redzone trips into touchdowns. No matter how good your defense is the law of averages is going to eventually bite you square in the butt.

Until Hodges or another QB on this roster proves than can succeed in those two areas of the game I will remain optimistic and squarely in their corner, but highly skeptical of claims of "starter" or "franchise" QB.

At another site that I frequent, some are calling his performance legendary. :lol: :toofunny: :lol: No I didn't stutter.

[Fire Goodell]

At another site that I frequent, some are calling his performance legendary. :lol: :toofunny: :lol: No I didn't stutter.

The way people talk about him, they say he may be the greatest quarterback that ever lived! Maybe he is that good, maybe not :chuckle:

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In all seriousness, why is such a big deal being made about his height? It's a non issue. He's basically the same size as Baker Mayfield (also 6'1, and one pound heavier lol). He's taller than Wilson, Brees, and Murray who are all pretty dang good (Murray will be)

/tangent

I don't understand how people can say he's definitely not the QB of the future. Yes, it's too early to crown him that. That, I will agree with. But to say he's definitely not the future QB is also premature. Why can't be be? Cause he's not 6'5? Cause he wasn't drafted in round 1? Cause he can't throw the ball 80 yards? There's a number of all-time great QB's who were none of those, and a huge list of QB's who had those things and ended up being huge busts.

I will say he makes the Steelers offense actually fun to watch compared to Rudolph. He's been playing with training wheels but has been making plays when needed to. 71% completion rating and 103 QB rating seems pretty damned good to me, especially for a rookie.

[DesertSteel]

Can Hodges be as good as Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson?

[Mojouw]

At another site that I frequent, some are calling his performance legendary. :lol: :toofunny: :lol: No I didn't stutter.

Yeah. It is that kinda stuff that I was trying to throw a bit of cold water on. I have no idea what Duck will become, but I do know what he is right now. It is far from legendary.

For some context on the numbers: the 2004 Steelers team converted 43% of their 3rd downs and 49% of their redzone trips were TDs.

[Fire Goodell]

Yeah. It is that kinda stuff that I was trying to throw a bit of cold water on. I have no idea what Duck will become, but I do know what he is right now. It is far from legendary.

For some context on the numbers: the 2004 Steelers team converted 43% of their 3rd downs and 49% of their redzone trips were TDs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAd8qi6NLnc

:chuckle:

[43Hitman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAd8qi6NLnc

:chuckle:

​45-0 WOOOOO!

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah. It is that kinda stuff that I was trying to throw a bit of cold water on. I have no idea what Duck will become, but I do know what he is right now. It is far from legendary.

For some context on the numbers: the 2004 Steelers team converted 43% of their 3rd downs and 49% of their redzone trips were TDs.


Yeah and neither do I. He is doing well enough for us to win and I am completely fine with that. It would be awesome if he's the next Drew Brees, but right now he is just a back-up QB doing what is asked of him. Nothing less and nothing more.

[DesertSteel]

Pass placement was very nice too.

Seeing the trajectory of his ball in person yesterday, I completely agree. His placement is very good. He throws a very good 50/50 ball.

[Dissolv]

Our only hope this year, is that he (and the rest of the offense, and special teams) rises up to "average", while the defense continues being elite, every single game. It's a tall order.

[86WARD]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HodgDe00/splits/2019/

Here are Hodges splits. He hasn't been terrible on third down at all. It is actually third and medium that seems to mess this team up.

As to the bad teams on the conversion list, there are two in the top 1/3rd - Dallas and Indy. I would argue both of those teams lose games because of their defense not their offense.

All I am saying is that the 2019 Pittsburgh Steelers do not currently have an offense that can win multiple playoff games. They don't convert third downs reliably and they fail to consistently turn redzone trips into touchdowns. No matter how good your defense is the law of averages is going to eventually bite you square in the butt.

Until Hodges or another QB on this roster proves than can succeed in those two areas of the game I will remain optimistic and squarely in their corner, but highly skeptical of claims of "starter" or "franchise" QB.

I’d be willing to bet that the third and mediums are a result of one of the two play being a terrible run play for a loss...ie) Benny Snell trying time bounce or run something outside...

I believe at some point yesterday towards the middle of the third quarter, maybe, the announcers said his pass completion percentage on third downs was at 100%...??

[bendsteel]

One needs to consider a couple of things. 1) he has had a shell of a team to work with. Give him JuJu and Conner at minimum just for a fair comparo. 2) a number of his TDs came from well outside the redzone. I will take never getting into the RZ and still scoring TDs every Sunday!
It makes me laugh at fools when they state, definitively, "he is NOT an NFL QB". I am not saying he is or isnt, but I am smart enough and humble enough to state that I do not know....yet. There have been some pretty marginal QBs that have gone on to a SB. Me thinks a lot of you should get your resume into the organization quickly, because y`all are clearly NFL idiot savants. Enjoy the wins. Let the guy grow for a few games, God forbid a whole season, maybe get the entire playbook and team, then state your claim. There was a young Redskins fan at the bar with Daddy yesterday flapping his gums about how shitty Duck is and how he cant wait to see him get knocked out of the game so we can get back playing Rudolph(Daddy was wearing his Ok State jersey). My response was swift and direct. Him and Daddy left the bar, him in tears, Daddy with his tail tucked between his legs. The entire bar laughed/clapped them out the door. Apparently this is normal for these two. Just remember, we all have opinions but not one single one of them = fact. But hey, by all means, continue to look like idiots(sans savant). Tho I don't recommend doing it in public lest you be made an example of.

[Mojouw]

I’d be willing to bet that the third and mediums are a result of one of the two play being a terrible run play for a loss...ie) Benny Snell trying time bounce or run something outside...

I believe at some point yesterday towards the middle of the third quarter, maybe, the announcers said his pass completion percentage on third downs was at 100%...??

There is a stat or a site somewhere that tracks what was going on with third down throws. I saw something on the internet or in the game cut-ups I watched last night that said Duck was completing a ton of 3rd down passes, but almost all of them were far short of the sticks. If that is the case, I'm not giving him, or any other QB, a ton of credit for completing a 4 yard pass on 3rd and 8. The defense was trying to get you to take that throw.

Here is one version of that type of stat through Week 13: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb/2019

Hodges is just over 4 yards short of the sticks on his average 3rd down throw.From what I can tell that is worst in the NFL.

[GoSlash27]

highly skeptical of claims of "starter" or "franchise" QB.

Wait... there's a huge difference between "starter" and "franchise". "Starter" is merely being one of the top 32 QBs available in any given year. I think Duck qualifies for that. He hasn't yet shown himself to be a "franchise QB" (and certainly not "legendary"), but let's not pretend that all these descriptions mean the same thing.

[DesertSteel]

If they needed Duck to throw for 300 yards, I think he could do it. But right now they’ve got a formula and it’s worked to the tune of 7 of 8. If it ain’t broke...

[Mojouw]

Wait... there's a huge difference between "starter" and "franchise". "Starter" is merely being one of the top 32 QBs available in any given year. I think Duck qualifies for that. He hasn't yet shown himself to be a "franchise QB" (and certainly not "legendary"), but let's not pretend that all these descriptions mean the same thing.

I also agree they are two separate things. Right now, I am skeptical of Hodges being either long term.

Kyle Allen, Minshew, the Denver Allen, the big goofy dude for the NYG, etc. have all looked as good or better than Hodges over their initial 2-4 games. Then defenses get tape, see tendencies, develop keys, and make adjustments. In all the cases I listed in 2019, the "fun, young, maybe we have something and should trade Cam Newton, or whatever" QB then faced specific defensive game plans and cratered.

How Hodges responds when that moment comes for him, will be the first real test to see if he can climb from "intriguing back-up QB" to potential "starter" or more.

And honestly, there are 30 or so guys I would rather start at QB before I got to Hodges. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing.htm

[DesertSteel]

Just in case it gets overlooked: Duck, an undrafted rookie QB has outplayed and taken down the past two #1 overall picks, two weeks in a row.

[Dissolv]

Sometimes some pluck and some luck will allow a win for the Duck.

[GoSlash27]

I also agree they are two separate things. Right now, I am skeptical of Hodges being either long term.

Kyle Allen, Minshew, the Denver Allen, the big goofy dude for the NYG, etc. have all looked as good or better than Hodges over their initial 2-4 games. Then defenses get tape, see tendencies, develop keys, and make adjustments. In all the cases I listed in 2019, the "fun, young, maybe we have something and should trade Cam Newton, or whatever" QB then faced specific defensive game plans and cratered.

How Hodges responds when that moment comes for him, will be the first real test to see if he can climb from "intriguing back-up QB" to potential "starter" or more.

And honestly, there are 30 or so guys I would rather start at QB before I got to Hodges. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing.htm

I'll see your prf citation and raise you http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/type/player-week

Ranked #14 this week, #22 last week, and #14 in week 6. His performance thus far has been average among starters.

[Mojouw]

I'll see your prf citation and raise you http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/type/player-week

Ranked #14 this week, #22 last week, and #14 in week 6. His performance thus far has been average among starters.

Not in dispute. All I am saying is that, for me (and only me), there are roughly 30 guys who have played QB in the NFL in 2019 that I would pick if we were choosing up sides to play QB before I called Hodges' name.

My opinion may change as Hodges demonstrates growth and development. I have a hard time believing that after 3 very limited showings, anyone would be like "If my team entered the off-season with Devlin Hodges as their starting QB, I would be totally fine with that and not want or expect them to do anything further to add to the position group." That, in my mind, is what a starting quarterback is. A franchise guy is, not only do we have it locked down for this season, but the next 10 and we are going to build the entire offense around this dude.

[Squeegee Thompson]

Wait... there's a huge difference between "starter" and "franchise". "Starter" is merely being one of the top 32 QBs available in any given year. I think Duck qualifies for that. He hasn't yet shown himself to be a "franchise QB" (and certainly not "legendary"), but let's not pretend that all these descriptions mean the same thing.

"Starter" and "Franchise QB" aren't even in the same discussion. I don't think anyone is looking at Duck as a potential "franchise" guy, but he does look to be good enough to keep the lights on through the end of the season while we hope Ben makes his full recovery. Ben still is the franchise, but won't be so for much longer. Our next "franchise" guy isn't on the roster. Mason got a chance to establish himself as such, but failed the test.

Every single team in the league has burned a high end pick on their next "franchise". Of those 32 teams, I'd argue that maybe 10 hit pay dirt and have 'that guy' on their roster, including Pittsburgh. That means there were about 20 whiffs, or ballpark 1 in 3 chance of your high draft pick panning out.

I think Duck can develop into a viable #2 on the roster, he may push Mason down to #3 next year - but they'll both around unless some team makes an aggressive move (more likely for Duck than Mason at this point). The QB class looks underwhelming next year, but much more promising in 2021. I think that's the year the Steelers go after a big name QB and try to find Ben's successor. Duck is not Ben's successor. Let's not kid ourselves that he's being potentially viewed as such.

[Fire Goodell]

If they needed Duck to throw for 300 yards, I think he could do it. But right now they’ve got a formula and it’s worked to the tune of 7 of 8. If it ain’t broke...

I think so too, his low yardage is by design, not lack of ability. He's shown the ability to make the plays he needs to make, but coach isn't gonna have him throw more than 30 times unless necessary.

- - - Updated - - -


"Starter" and "Franchise QB" aren't even in the same discussion. I don't think anyone is looking at Duck as a potential "franchise" guy, but he does look to be good enough to keep the lights on through the end of the season while we hope Ben makes his full recovery. Ben still is the franchise, but won't be so for much longer. Our next "franchise" guy isn't on the roster. Mason got a chance to establish himself as such, but failed the test.

Every single team in the league has burned a high end pick on their next "franchise". Of those 32 teams, I'd argue that maybe 10 hit pay dirt and have 'that guy' on their roster, including Pittsburgh. That means there were about 20 whiffs, or ballpark 1 in 3 chance of your high draft pick panning out.

I think Duck can develop into a viable #2 on the roster, he may push Mason down to #3 next year - but they'll both around unless some team makes an aggressive move (more likely for Duck than Mason at this point). The QB class looks underwhelming next year, but much more promising in 2021. I think that's the year the Steelers go after a big name QB and try to find Ben's successor. Duck is not Ben's successor. Let's not kid ourselves that he's being potentially viewed as such.

We really don't know that. Why does Mason have a shot to become the franchise QB and Duck doesn't? Cause he's 6'5 and was drafted in the 3rd round? Duck has shown an ability to make intermediate / deep throws that had zero chance with Mason. He can scramble and throw on the run. Ben is retiring in 1-2 years, you better bet your ass that the Steeler FO is looking to see if he has that "franchise" potential. He's gotten off to a good start, and if he keeps this rolling, he should get his chance to be the guy. Pedigree is overrated. I know Tom Brady as an example is overused, but the 6th round nobody put a #1 overall pick (Bledsoe) on the bench for good. I've seen stranger things happen in this league.

[Iron Steeler]

Yeah, too early to tell, but his stature, only 6’? I can’t see a viable long term starter at that height. He’d have to become an extraordinary qb to pull that off (like Russell Wilson).

I can totally see him as a solid backup to Ben next year, and possibly holding down the fort until the next franchisee arrives

It's a different game now then 10nyears ago. QBs are soooooo protected. They prototype was 6'4 225 . Now its mobility,pocket mobility, quick release, and quick decisions. If your 6' qb can do all of that and your 6'5 qb cant who is the starter.

Almost like I explained Duck and Mason.

Duck has 3 touqh defensive on the schedule. Bills,Jets,Ravens. If he performs well vs these teams then I will jump on Duck is seriously good.

Right now I think it's a Cinderella story, just hope we dont turn into a pumpkin until after the superbowl.

[Fire Goodell]

The last two #1 overall picks were QB's at 6'1 or less. Just saying. Drew Brees and Russell Wilson also didn't get the memo that you can't be under 6'1 and play QB in the NFL

[Squeegee Thompson]

We really don't know that. Why does Mason have a shot to become the franchise QB and Duck doesn't? Cause he's 6'5 and was drafted in the 3rd round? Duck has shown an ability to make intermediate / deep throws that had zero chance with Mason. He can scramble and throw on the run. Ben is retiring in 1-2 years, you better bet your ass that the Steeler FO is looking to see if he has that "franchise" potential. He's gotten off to a good start, and if he keeps this rolling, he should get his chance to be the guy. Pedigree is overrated. I know Tom Brady as an example is overused, but the 6th round nobody put a #1 overall pick (Bledsoe) on the bench for good. I've seen stranger things happen in this league.

Mason got the shot because they moved up in the 3rd to snag him away from Cincinnati with Colbert going on the record as saying "we had a 1st round grade on him". Ben's reaction at the time (being pretty pissed off) indicated he thought they were drafting their next franchise guy as well. Like I'd mentioned earlier, this works only about 1 out of 3-to-4 times in the NFL - and it's becoming clear that this was a whiff on Pittsburgh's part. Often those guys can turn into serviceable backups while the search continues for your next "stud". Hell, we've got a former 1st rounder playing QB on the practice squad right now.

Sometimes you can catch lightning in a bottle and your QB without all the measurables can become your franchise like Bress or Wilson (not buying the Murray or Mayfield hype). Maybe you get really lucky and stumble into a Doug Flutie. More likely, it's a Gardner Minshew or Duck Hodges guy who looks amazing for a handful of games, then very average once enough snaps are on tape and DCs start scheming to their weaknesses. Hopefully it won't happen to Duck, but I won't be shocked if and when it does.

My overall point is that franchise guys are really, really, hard to find and teams have to be prepared to swing and miss more often than they knock it out of the park. After Elway retired, Denver had Jack and Shit before stumbling into Manning's last few years. Since Manning, they've been comically bad at trying to find a QB. Hell, Chicago has had NOTHING since Jim McMahon - and they keep trying and failing to find anybody competent to put under center.

Next year isn't the year for that search. The talent is underwhelming, and you've got one last run with Ben before he hangs 'em up. If Ben can even be a top 12-15 QB next year, this defense will have them winning most of their games. Duck should be considered a viable backup who can keep the ship on course if Ben goes down (the way Homestead Charlie was for years), but 2021 will be a serious year for Pittsburgh to go after their next "guy".

[GoSlash27]

I have a hard time believing that after 3 very limited showings, anyone would be like "If my team entered the off-season with Devlin Hodges as their starting QB, I would be totally fine with that and not want or expect them to do anything further to add to the position group." That, in my mind, is what a starting quarterback is.

Ah, well that's where our mileage varies. There are 32 starters in the league and most of them don't make the playoffs, let alone feel comfortable with their QB play while there. Thus, my bar for "starter" is considerably lower than yours.

[DesertSteel]

Why not just enjoy the moment and appreciate Duck for what he's doing? He hasn't proven to be a quality NFL starter yet, but he also hasn't proven not to be. He's 3-0 and is a fan-favorite type of guy. Whichever one he proves to be or not be, will happen soon enough. Just enjoy the ride.

[Fire Goodell]

Mason got the shot because they moved up in the 3rd to snag him away from Cincinnati with Colbert going on the record as saying "we had a 1st round grade on him". Ben's reaction at the time (being pretty pissed off) indicated he thought they were drafting their next franchise guy as well. Like I'd mentioned earlier, this works only about 1 out of 3-to-4 times in the NFL - and it's becoming clear that this was a whiff on Pittsburgh's part. Often those guys can turn into serviceable backups while the search continues for your next "stud". Hell, we've got a former 1st rounder playing QB on the practice squad right now.

Sometimes you can catch lightning in a bottle and your QB without all the measurables can become your franchise like Bress or Wilson (not buying the Murray or Mayfield hype). Maybe you get really lucky and stumble into a Doug Flutie. More likely, it's a Gardner Minshew or Duck Hodges guy who looks amazing for a handful of games, then very average once enough snaps are on tape and DCs start scheming to their weaknesses. Hopefully it won't happen to Duck, but I won't be shocked if and when it does.

My overall point is that franchise guys are really, really, hard to find and teams have to be prepared to swing and miss more often than they knock it out of the park. After Elway retired, Denver had Jack and Shit before stumbling into Manning's last few years. Since Manning, they've been comically bad at trying to find a QB. Hell, Chicago has had NOTHING since Jim McMahon - and they keep trying and failing to find anybody competent to put under center.

Next year isn't the year for that search. The talent is underwhelming, and you've got one last run with Ben before he hangs 'em up. If Ben can even be a top 12-15 QB next year, this defense will have them winning most of their games. Duck should be considered a viable backup who can keep the ship on course if Ben goes down (the way Homestead Charlie was for years), but 2021 will be a serious year for Pittsburgh to go after their next "guy".

So basically Mason gets a shot because he was drafted in rd. 3. I say Duck deserves the shot more because he did what Mason could not so far. I don't have expectations for him to be great, but also won't write him off just yet. Especially if he keeps winning games for us.

[tube517]

Why not just enjoy the moment and appreciate Duck for what he's doing? He hasn't proven to be a quality NFL starter yet, but he also hasn't proven not to be. He's 3-0 and is a fan-favorite type of guy. Whichever one he proves to be or not be, will happen soon enough. Just enjoy the ride.

This.

[Squeegee Thompson]

So basically Mason gets a shot because he was drafted in rd. 3. I say Duck deserves the shot more because he did what Mason could not so far. I don't have expectations for him to be great, but also won't write him off just yet. Especially if he keeps winning games for us.

I think you're misconstruing what I'm trying to say. Mason was being groomed as the possible 'franchise' because the Pittsburgh brain trust thought h was first round talent that slipped in the draft, so they snatched him up. It happens. Remember the lost-puppy-dog look on Aaron Rogers' face during the draft when team after team let him slide in the 1st? I think the Steelers were hoping for a similar fortune. Their expectations of Duck are much lower, even though he's performing at a higher level than Mason and giving them a real shot in every game.

Mason was drafted because he had 'most' of the qualities you're looking for in a franchise QB: 6'5", high release arm angle, accurate passer, good deep ball thrower, high football IQ, hard worker, high confidence, film room junkie. Of course there were cons as well: average arm strength, questionable footwork, came from a spread offense. They were hoping that he'd have a fast processor, go through his reads quickly and use release speed and accuracy to compensate for arm strength. It worked in Philip Rivers' case. It didn't in Masons. After going nighty-night in the Baltimore game, his progressions were slow to develop, his footwork and accuracy were both shoddy, his much-anticipated deep balls were non-existent, and frankly his confidence was shot.

Duck is everything right now that Mason is not: confident, mobile in the pocket, taking deep shots courageously, accurate with nice touch on his passes and showing a nice ability to tuck and run. He's also short, throws at a 3/4 arm angle, which will lead to more batted balls, and doesn't have Russell Wilson's speed or Brees' quickness to extend plays in the backfield.

I'm not writing off Duck, I'm just realistically setting the expectations that he'll never be the face of the franchise for the next decade. It's a fun story for the 2019 season and I hope it continues into January and cements a well-deserved #2 position behind Ben next year. But make no mistake, they'll be looking for their next 'Ben' in 2 years, minimum: A prototypical 6'4" / 6'5" QB with a howitzer for an arm that can fit the ball into tight windows a put those 20 yard out patterns on a rope. The league is full of those guys - mostly holding clipboards because the rest of their game never developed enough to complement their physical advantages.

[DesertSteel]

I think you're misconstruing what I'm trying to say. Mason was being groomed as the possible 'franchise' because the Pittsburgh brain trust thought h was first round talent that slipped in the draft, so they snatched him up. It happens. Remember the lost-puppy-dog look on Aaron Rogers' face during the draft when team after team let him slide in the 1st? I think the Steelers were hoping for a similar fortune. Their expectations of Duck are much lower, even though he's performing at a higher level than Mason and giving them a real shot in every game.

Mason was drafted because he had 'most' of the qualities you're looking for in a franchise QB: 6'5", high release arm angle, accurate passer, good deep ball thrower, high football IQ, hard worker, high confidence, film room junkie. Of course there were cons as well: average arm strength, questionable footwork, came from a spread offense. They were hoping that he'd have a fast processor, go through his reads quickly and use release speed and accuracy to compensate for arm strength. It worked in Philip Rivers' case. It didn't in Masons. After going nighty-night in the Baltimore game, his progressions were slow to develop, his footwork and accuracy were both shoddy, his much-anticipated deep balls were non-existent, and frankly his confidence was shot.

Duck is everything right now that Mason is not: confident, mobile in the pocket, taking deep shots courageously, accurate with nice touch on his passes and showing a nice ability to tuck and run. He's also short, throws at a 3/4 arm angle, which will lead to more batted balls, and doesn't have Russell Wilson's speed or Brees' quickness to extend plays in the backfield.

I'm not writing off Duck, I'm just realistically setting the expectations that he'll never be the face of the franchise for the next decade. It's a fun story for the 2019 season and I hope it continues into January and cements a well-deserved #2 position behind Ben next year. But make no mistake, they'll be looking for their next 'Ben' in 2 years, minimum: A prototypical 6'4" / 6'5" QB with a howitzer for an arm that can fit the ball into tight windows a put those 20 yard out patterns on a rope. The league is full of those guys - mostly holding clipboards because the rest of their game never developed enough to complement their physical advantages.
I'm not so sure about that. The height barrier has already been broken - multiple times, and now the running QB barrier is coming down. I think two years from now, QB evaluation may look a little different. Like you said, there's plenty of those prototypical guys who are bums.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Here is it! Many on here still don't want to admit they was wrong on Duck. Duck just keeps winning and doing everything ask! No starter though and holding down the fort for Ben! Hope these members root for Duck in the playoffs! Ps I'm sure one or more will write 5 huge paragraphs to prove they know more then me!

[Edman]

I'm not so sure about that. The height barrier has already been broken - multiple times, and now the running QB barrier is coming down. I think two years from now, QB evaluation may look a little different. Like you said, there's plenty of those prototypical guys who are bums.

The Running QB had no barrier. It just has a distinct shelf life. It doesn’t last long and is not sustainable. Just as quickly as it explodes on the scene, it disappears just as quickly. The only barrier a running QB faces is throwing ability. If he can’t throw at an elite level, he falls off a cliff the moment his skill diminishes.

[teegre]

Side-note...

Please, stop using the phrase “The Steelers had a R1 grade on Rudolph” as a way of slamming Tomlin & Colbert.

The Steelers did not draft Rudolph in R1. In fact, the Steelers didn’t even draft him in R2. Nope. The Steelers waited until R3 to draft Rudolph.

If the Steelers had actually drafted Rudolph in R1, I could see the logic is bashing the pick/bashing the Steelers for making a bad choice. But, again, they didn’t actually draft him until R3.

But, but, but... “They said it.” So what!?! :noidea: After the pick, Ben criticized Rudolph. The front office responded by boosting Rudolph’s ego by saying that they had a “R1 grade on him.”

It’s akin to when you wife/girlfriend asks you if she looks good on an outfit... You always say that she looks good.


As someone else stated, enjoy the now. Too many of you are actively searching out reasons to be angry. Why? This is a fun season. So, you know, have some fun.

[DesertSteel]

The Running QB had no barrier. It just has a distinct shelf life. It doesn’t last long and is not sustainable. Just as quickly as it explodes on the scene, it disappears just as quickly. The only barrier a running QB faces is throwing ability. If he can’t throw at an elite level, he falls off a cliff the moment his skill diminishes.
Injuries are a barrier. Teams wouldn’t draft dual threat quarterbacks for that reason. That is now being re-thought.

[Edman]

Injuries are a barrier. Teams wouldn’t draft dual threat quarterbacks for that reason. That is now being re-thought.

I doubt teams are banging their doors down to get another Lamar Jackson. No matter how good his year has been thus far. Teams know better after Cunningham, Vick and Kaepernick that the Running QB doesn’t last. Already Jackson is feeling the cost of running, even though he hasn’t even been hit that much. Yet. If the Ravens commit to Jackson long-term, they WILL ask him to tone it down, which will expose him as a mediocre passer unless he proves otherwise.

Mobile QB’s on the other hand are a different story. Teams always want a quarterback who can move around, but if your Quarterback’s greatest asset is running and not throwing the ball, he will be overlooked.

[86WARD]

Side-note...

Please, stop using the phrase “The Steelers had a R1 grade on Rudolph” as a way of slamming Tomlin & Colbert.

The Steelers did not draft Rudolph in R1. In fact, the Steelers didn’t even draft him in R2. Nope. The Steelers waited until R3 to draft Rudolph.

If the Steelers had actually drafted Rudolph in R1, I could see the logic is bashing the pick/bashing the Steelers for making a bad choice. But, again, they didn’t actually draft him until R3.

But, but, but... “They said it.” So what!?! :noidea: After the pick, Ben criticized Rudolph. The front office responded by boosting Rudolph’s ego by saying that they had a “R1 grade on him.”

It’s akin to when you wife/girlfriend asks you if she looks good on an outfit... You always say that she looks good.


As someone else stated, enjoy the now. Too many of you are actively searching out reasons to be angry. Why? This is a fun season. So, you know, have some fun.

QFT.

Not to mention...what are they going to say about a possible future QB? “We think he’s a solid Round 3 gamble.”?

[86WARD]

I’m feeling really Ducky today!!!

[tube517]

Side-note...

Please, stop using the phrase “The Steelers had a R1 grade on Rudolph” as a way of slamming Tomlin & Colbert.

The Steelers did not draft Rudolph in R1. In fact, the Steelers didn’t even draft him in R2. Nope. The Steelers waited until R3 to draft Rudolph.

If the Steelers had actually drafted Rudolph in R1, I could see the logic is bashing the pick/bashing the Steelers for making a bad choice. But, again, they didn’t actually draft him until R3.

But, but, but... “They said it.” So what!?! :noidea: After the pick, Ben criticized Rudolph. The front office responded by boosting Rudolph’s ego by saying that they had a “R1 grade on him.”

It’s akin to when you wife/girlfriend asks you if she looks good on an outfit... You always say that she looks good.


As someone else stated, enjoy the now. Too many of you are actively searching out reasons to be angry. Why? This is a fun season. So, you know, have some fun.

So, I can't say "They had a R6 grade on Colin Holba"? :chuckle:

[GoSlash27]

Side-note...

Please, stop using the phrase “The Steelers had a R1 grade on Rudolph” as a way of slamming Tomlin & Colbert.

The Steelers did not draft Rudolph in R1. In fact, the Steelers didn’t even draft him in R2. Nope. The Steelers waited until R3 to draft Rudolph.

If the Steelers had actually drafted Rudolph in R1, I could see the logic is bashing the pick/bashing the Steelers for making a bad choice. But, again, they didn’t actually draft him until R3.

But, but, but... “They said it.” So what!?! :noidea: After the pick, Ben criticized Rudolph. The front office responded by boosting Rudolph’s ego by saying that they had a “R1 grade on him.”

It’s akin to when you wife/girlfriend asks you if she looks good on an outfit... You always say that she looks good.


As someone else stated, enjoy the now. Too many of you are actively searching out reasons to be angry. Why? This is a fun season. So, you know, have some fun.

Hell, the only thing wrong with Rudolph is a confidence problem. He'll work through that eventually, so I don't think we've seen the last of him.

As for Duck, he remains what he has always been; a capable QB who tends to float his deep passes. I'm more impressed with him the more I watch him play.

[Mojouw]

The Running QB had no barrier. It just has a distinct shelf life. It doesn’t last long and is not sustainable. Just as quickly as it explodes on the scene, it disappears just as quickly. The only barrier a running QB faces is throwing ability. If he can’t throw at an elite level, he falls off a cliff the moment his skill diminishes.

The "running qb" had a massive barrier to overcome. First, and I will attempt to orient this discussion to ignore this - "running QB" was code word for "black QB" and all of the negative assumptions and stereotypes that were long attached to that scenario. Look into the struggles of Doug Williams and Warren Moon if you wish to know more. It should be said that Doug Flutie, Tim Tebow, Matt Jones (cocaine!!) and other white QBs (such as every one that played for Nebraska) have also had the "running QB" label applied to them as well.

I think that a running QB has no barrier now because of how offense has changed in the NFL in the past few seasons. The incorporation of college style offense into the NFL has been a literal game changer. Teams no longer are set in taking a guy who runs offense style A in college and forcing him to play offense style B (which is totally different and typically hides his strengths and magnifies his weaknesses). That for far too long was how the NFL rolled. Guys like Kordell Stewart, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, Culpepper, McNair, Tyrod Taylor, even Mariotta all entered the league when no one was really doing what is now standard.

I know this will bring out the torches and pitchforks, but imagine Kordell in basically the Ravens 2019 offense in the late 1990s NFL. Or Mike Vick in about the same situation. That was when linebackers were still going over 250 pounds. It would've been a bloodbath. But the NFL believed that type of offense wouldn't and by definition couldn't work in the NFL. We now know that was just really bad coaching and not true.

So yeah, the running QB barrier is largely over now -- but it took the NFL basically running out of traditional drop-back QB options before they took that barrier down.

It does need acknowledged that if you can't hit about 60% of your passes, it doesn't matter what kind of QB you are, you are not playing long in the NFL.

[Shoes]

The "running qb" had a massive barrier to overcome. First, and I will attempt to orient this discussion to ignore this - "running QB" was code word for "black QB" and all of the negative assumptions and stereotypes that were long attached to that scenario. Look into the struggles of Doug Williams and Warren Moon if you wish to know more. It should be said that Doug Flutie, Tim Tebow, Matt Jones (cocaine!!) and other white QBs (such as every one that played for Nebraska) have also had the "running QB" label applied to them as well.

I think that a running QB has no barrier now because of how offense has changed in the NFL in the past few seasons. The incorporation of college style offense into the NFL has been a literal game changer. Teams no longer are set in taking a guy who runs offense style A in college and forcing him to play offense style B (which is totally different and typically hides his strengths and magnifies his weaknesses). That for far too long was how the NFL rolled. Guys like Kordell Stewart, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, Culpepper, McNair, Tyrod Taylor, even Mariotta all entered the league when no one was really doing what is now standard.

I know this will bring out the torches and pitchforks, but imagine Kordell in basically the Ravens 2019 offense in the late 1990s NFL. Or Mike Vick in about the same situation. That was when linebackers were still going over 250 pounds. It would've been a bloodbath. But the NFL believed that type of offense wouldn't and by definition couldn't work in the NFL. We now know that was just really bad coaching and not true.

So yeah, the running QB barrier is largely over now -- but it took the NFL basically running out of traditional drop-back QB options before they took that barrier down.

It does need acknowledged that if you can't hit about 60% of your passes, it doesn't matter what kind of QB you are, you are not playing long in the NFL.

Don't forget this guy. :lol:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoNEZL-kUuk

[steelreserve]

The "running qb" had a massive barrier to overcome. First, and I will attempt to orient this discussion to ignore this - "running QB" was code word for "black QB" and all of the negative assumptions and stereotypes that were long attached to that scenario. Look into the struggles of Doug Williams and Warren Moon if you wish to know more. It should be said that Doug Flutie, Tim Tebow, Matt Jones (cocaine!!) and other white QBs (such as every one that played for Nebraska) have also had the "running QB" label applied to them as well.

I think that a running QB has no barrier now because of how offense has changed in the NFL in the past few seasons. The incorporation of college style offense into the NFL has been a literal game changer. Teams no longer are set in taking a guy who runs offense style A in college and forcing him to play offense style B (which is totally different and typically hides his strengths and magnifies his weaknesses). That for far too long was how the NFL rolled. Guys like Kordell Stewart, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, Culpepper, McNair, Tyrod Taylor, even Mariotta all entered the league when no one was really doing what is now standard.

I know this will bring out the torches and pitchforks, but imagine Kordell in basically the Ravens 2019 offense in the late 1990s NFL. Or Mike Vick in about the same situation. That was when linebackers were still going over 250 pounds. It would've been a bloodbath. But the NFL believed that type of offense wouldn't and by definition couldn't work in the NFL. We now know that was just really bad coaching and not true.

So yeah, the running QB barrier is largely over now -- but it took the NFL basically running out of traditional drop-back QB options before they took that barrier down.

It does need acknowledged that if you can't hit about 60% of your passes, it doesn't matter what kind of QB you are, you are not playing long in the NFL.

I am not sure I buy that. The reason there are so many more "running" QBs now is because there are more of them who actually CAN throw the ball. Not because the coaches in the '80s and '90s were all idiots who kept passing over good players and ignoring new schemes for no reason whatsoever, other than they were stupidly stuck in their ways.

The big, BIG difference between now and then is how much the college game has changed. 30 years ago, it was a lot less sophisticated. A real passing game is really difficult and takes a lot of coordination that many teams just don't have (watch any HS game and it becomes obvious), and in those days even a lot of major college teams weren't up for it. The option offense was either a run or a different run - that was it. I mean, the 1988 national championship was between two teams with some of the best option/mobile college QBs ever, Notre Dame and West Virginia, and both passed something like 10 or 15 times the whole game. They looked for guys with the skill set to run that specific offense to perfection; they didn't care if they had a QB who made it big in the NFL, they wanted to win college championships, so they got QBs who were perfect for their simplified college offenses.

No, it's not that all the coaches said "college offenses don't work in the NFL" because they were stupid and ignorant. It's that an '80s college option offense WAS way too one-dimensional to work in the pros. It would fucking suck, and the QBs running it in college had little to offer besides running it in the pros.

It's not that NFL offenses changed by suddenly going "a-ha!" and incorporating the college game - it's that the college game, and the type of players it produced, changed into stuff that could actually work in the NFL. Honestly, what made that happen was two things - Michael Vick showing what kinds of things were possible with a QB who was both fast AND a legitimate passer; and then you had the Oregon/Florida type spread offenses, which were not really viable pro offenses, but helped raise the table stakes of the skill set needed to play QB. Then the group of grade school kids and high school coaches below them saw that - and what do you know, 10 years later, you had a whole lot of mobile QBs coming up who were a lot better on average than the ones before, and you had college offenses that prioritized that, rather than basically a glorified running back who could throw a little.

Kordell Stewart's problem was that he was inaccurate and he threw more interceptions than TDs - not that he came around too early and his career was stifled by a bunch of Philistines. There had been good "mobile" QBs before - Cunningham, Steve Young, etc. - and after (but still before the current bumper crop) - McNair, Culpepper, Vick, McNabb ... the one thing they have in common is that the GOOD ones got a chance, and had long productive careers. Kordell had a career more like Rodney Peete's, because as a passer he was about as good as Rodney Peete. He would be a shitty starting QB in a read-option or hybrid college-style offense today, because every one of the current group of QBs in that style, along with the Vicks, McNairs, Culpeppers, McNabbs, etc. ... is simply a lot better passer than he ever was.

[Mojouw]

I am not sure I buy that. The reason there are so many more "running" QBs now is because there are more of them who actually CAN throw the ball. Not because the coaches in the '80s and '90s were all idiots who kept passing over good players and ignoring new schemes for no reason whatsoever, other than they were stupidly stuck in their ways.

The big, BIG difference between now and then is how much the college game has changed. 30 years ago, it was a lot less sophisticated. A real passing game is really difficult and takes a lot of coordination that many teams just don't have (watch any HS game and it becomes obvious), and in those days even a lot of major college teams weren't up for it. The option offense was either a run or a different run - that was it. I mean, the 1988 national championship was between two teams with some of the best option/mobile college QBs ever, Notre Dame and West Virginia, and both passed something like 10 or 15 times the whole game. They looked for guys with the skill set to run that specific offense to perfection; they didn't care if they had a QB who made it big in the NFL, they wanted to win college championships, so they got QBs who were perfect for their simplified college offenses.

No, it's not that all the coaches said "college offenses don't work in the NFL" because they were stupid and ignorant. It's that an '80s college option offense WAS way too one-dimensional to work in the pros. It would fucking suck, and the QBs running it in college had little to offer besides running it in the pros.

It's not that NFL offenses changed by suddenly going "a-ha!" and incorporating the college game - it's that the college game, and the type of players it produced, changed into stuff that could actually work in the NFL. Honestly, what made that happen was two things - Michael Vick showing what kinds of things were possible with a QB who was both fast AND a legitimate passer; and then you had the Oregon/Florida type spread offenses, which were not really viable pro offenses, but helped raise the table stakes of the skill set needed to play QB. Then the group of grade school kids and high school coaches below them saw that - and what do you know, 10 years later, you had a whole lot of mobile QBs coming up who were a lot better on average than the ones before, and you had college offenses that prioritized that, rather than basically a glorified running back who could throw a little.

Kordell Stewart's problem was that he was inaccurate and he threw more interceptions than TDs - not that he came around too early and his career was stifled by a bunch of Philistines. There had been good "mobile" QBs before - Cunningham, Steve Young, etc. - and after (but still before the current bumper crop) - McNair, Culpepper, Vick, McNabb ... the one thing they have in common is that the GOOD ones got a chance, and had long productive careers. Kordell had a career more like Rodney Peete's, because as a passer he was about as good as Rodney Peete. He would be a shitty starting QB in a read-option or hybrid college-style offense today, because every one of the current group of QBs in that style, along with the Vicks, McNairs, Culpeppers, McNabbs, etc. ... is simply a lot better passer than he ever was.

All true and I can’t really disagree with most of it.

I can only offer that the developments of the past 10-15 years at the college level could’ve happened at the pro level at almost any point. Not much of it is really all that revolutionary. But the NFL is risk averse and took far too long to make a commitment to running anything aside from a pro set 2 RB style offense. They evaluated players almost totally on that model and it is only when the college ranks stopped producing players that fit that system that the pro game moved its thinking. Some of the inaccurate passes of the past would likely be far more accurate if they played in the systems today that produce simple reads into open windows.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I think Steelreserve has a Catcher in The Rye book in him. Glad to have him here and he is the JD Salinger of the board!

[steelreserve]

I think Steelreserve has a Catcher in The Rye book in him. Glad to have him here and he is the JD Salinger of the board!

Conversely, I bet if they had the internet back in the 1950s, J.D. Salinger would have been hanging around on football message boards, writing about shoving 40 bottles up people's asses and rolling around in dogshit.

Something about yin and yang, or harmony of the universe, or some shit.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Conversely, I bet if they had the internet back in the 1950s, J.D. Salinger would have been hanging around on football message boards, writing about shoving 40 bottles up people's asses and rolling around in dogshit.

Something about yin and yang, or harmony of the universe, or some shit. Lol and you should be writing books and enjoy your post. Talent is there!

[steelreserve]

All true and I can’t really disagree with most of it.

I can only offer that the developments of the past 10-15 years at the college level could’ve happened at the pro level at almost any point. Not much of it is really all that revolutionary. But the NFL is risk averse and took far too long to make a commitment to running anything aside from a pro set 2 RB style offense. They evaluated players almost totally on that model and it is only when the college ranks stopped producing players that fit that system that the pro game moved its thinking. Some of the inaccurate passes of the past would likely be far more accurate if they played in the systems today that produce simple reads into open windows.

Some of them, probably. Not Kordell, though. He could have a guy wide open 5 yards in front of him and overthrow him by 15.

On the other hand, Colin Kaepernick was a decent QB in a read-option system, and probably still would have been for a few more years if the 49ers hadn't turtled him. That's the closest Kordell comparison I can think of. But he was STILL probably a better passer. At least a little.

I think it's also pretty likely that a couple dozen Steve McNairs just ended up not playing quarterback, because they were pegged early on as RBs or WRs because of their speed.

[pczach]

Here's a story about the Duck!


Duck's season: 15 things to know about Steelers cult hero QB Devlin Hodges

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ducks-season-15-things-to-know-about-steelers-cult-hero-qb-devlin-hodges/ar-AAK1NhI?ocid=spartanntp

[86WARD]

Nice story. Thanks.

[teegre]

QFT.

Not to mention...what are they going to say about a possible future QB? “We think he’s a solid Round 3 gamble.”?

Exactly

MEDIA: What are your thoughts on the mindset of a young QB taking over for a future HOFer?

COLBERT: Rudolph is okayish.

MEDIA: What are your thoughts on your granddaughter’s story about a cat?

COLBERT: She’s no Albert Einstein.

MEDIA: Your grandson is having surgery next week; talk to us about that.

COLBERT: He night die; anything other than that I see as a bonus.

[AtlantaDan]

QFT.

Not to mention...what are they going to say about a possible future QB? “We think he’s a solid Round 3 gamble.”?

How about something similar to "we had a first round grade on him" such as the lavish praise “He has not killed us”? :rolleyes:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

On the other hand, Colin Kaepernick was a decent QB in a read-option system, and probably still would have been for a few more years if the 49ers hadn't turtled him. That's the closest Kordell comparison I can think of. But he was STILL probably a better passer. At least a little.

I think it's also pretty likely that a couple dozen Steve McNairs just ended up not playing quarterback, because they were pegged early on as RBs or WRs because of their speed.

In a sport where fans and pundits judge success by winning Super Bowls, I am always amused by how fans lose sight of that when guys like Kaepernick, Lamar Jackson, Vince Young, Kordell Stewart or Bob Griffin come along.

I cant think of one read-option QB, or QB that his running ability was better than his passing ability …..won a championship. I like your McNair reference as I think he is a guy that could obviously lead a team to a championship because he was a better passer than runner of the football.

[Mojouw]

I'm sure these numbers will bounce around a bit if we looked at it separated by QB - but here they are in all their glory. These are the reasons I have reservations about the Steelers ability to mount a playoff run. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsoff/2019

28th in yards per drive
26th in points per drive
29th in plays per drive
23rd in time of possession
30th in drives that result in scores

For some context, the 2000 Ravens ranked no lower than 23 in any of those categories and were 18th in points per drive.

[Fire Goodell]

I'm sure these numbers will bounce around a bit if we looked at it separated by QB - but here they are in all their glory. These are the reasons I have reservations about the Steelers ability to mount a playoff run. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsoff/2019

28th in yards per drive
26th in points per drive
29th in plays per drive
23rd in time of possession
30th in drives that result in scores

For some context, the 2000 Ravens ranked no lower than 23 in any of those categories and were 18th in points per drive.

Might have looked different if Hodges was the backup for most of the season. PFF ranked Mason Rudolph as #32 unsurprisingly, probably why the offense also has been ranked so low.

Also some has to do with the game plan. Hodges had like 150 yards passing vs AZ mainly because they were playing with a lead all game, if they have the lead they'll likely be in ball control mode. I'm wondering how much of that is to limit Hodges' exposure, or not show their hand if not needed. I feel he's capable of passing for 300+ if the game plan dictates. I do hope that they get more aggressive on offense though, the turtleball stuff doesn't work in the playoffs.

[slippy]

Lamar is having a great season because nobody can get a good hit on him. But now he's got a quad injury to slow him down a touch.

Methinks soon he will be RGIII ... er, RGIV ?

[GoSlash27]

I'm sure these numbers will bounce around a bit if we looked at it separated by QB - but here they are in all their glory. These are the reasons I have reservations about the Steelers ability to mount a playoff run. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsoff/2019

28th in yards per drive
26th in points per drive
29th in plays per drive
23rd in time of possession
30th in drives that result in scores

For some context, the 2000 Ravens ranked no lower than 23 in any of those categories and were 18th in points per drive.

The bolded part is what's important. The offense now is very different from what it was for most of the season. It used to suck terribly, now it's average. I have no reason to think that the addition of JuJu and Conner into the mix or Duck's further evolution will make us worse.

[steelreserve]

As far as postseason success, we are basically in the same situation as the Ravens that one year when Moonball Joe was just throwing footballs straight up in the air and his receivers were somehow coming down with all of them and they won the Super Bowl.

In order to win, we would need someone to catch fire for 4 games, or just be extremely lucky. There is about a 5% chance of that.

It's still better than 0%, which is where we were before Hodges, because I think we would be at 5-8 and out of the playoff picture right now with Rudolph still in there.

[Rotorhead]

I'm sure these numbers will bounce around a bit if we looked at it separated by QB - but here they are in all their glory. These are the reasons I have reservations about the Steelers ability to mount a playoff run. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsoff/2019

28th in yards per drive
26th in points per drive
29th in plays per drive
23rd in time of possession
30th in drives that result in scores

For some context, the 2000 Ravens ranked no lower than 23 in any of those categories and were 18th in points per drive.

Also, we don’t need to try to light it up, our def allows us to turtle while Duck hopefully get more comfortable and learns more.

[Fire Goodell]

As far as postseason success, we are basically in the same situation as the Ravens that one year when Moonball Joe was just throwing footballs straight up in the air and his receivers were somehow coming down with all of them and they won the Super Bowl.

In order to win, we would need someone to catch fire for 4 games, or just be extremely lucky. There is about a 5% chance of that.

It's still better than 0%, which is where we were before Hodges, because I think we would be at 5-8 and out of the playoff picture right now with Rudolph still in there.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WelloffBiodegradableDromedary-size_restricted.gif