Don't Blame Randy Fichtner

[TRASHMAN]

I am mad as most of you about waiving the white flag during our last possession against the Colts, but I have to disagree with those who believe Fichtner is a liability.

Fitchtner did not game plan for Samuels to set an all-time record for RB receptions this afternoon. Rudolph was clearly going through his progressions and checking down the majority of those plays. The proverbial "Fitchtner conservative offense" could attributed to WR's not gaining separation or Rudolph simply making the correct reads. I think Rudolph did a fantastic job moving the chains, not forcing the ball, and making the throws that counted today; especially to his former teammate. That's as much as you can ask for a QB's 5th career start.

Bottom line, Fitchtner has put Rudolph and our offense in the position to wins games. This team is a few fumbles and a bogus roughing the passer call away from being 7-1.

[steelreserve]

At first, I thought the coaches were limiting Rudolph.

After several games, I feel more like Rudolph is limiting Rudolph.

They would not be calling 40 straight dump-offs every game. And on a lot of these plays, you can see that some receivers are running downfield, and then the throw is to the underneath guy who was left uncovered.

It's as if the normal progression for a QB goes 1-2-3-4-5, but Rudolph just goes 1-5. Or 1-5-2-5-3-5-4-5, and the 1 and 2 usually have not had time to run their routes before he's on to the 5. Something like that. It's weird.

[Neversatisfied]

I agree with Trashman on some of his points and would like to add (not trying to thread jack) but i think its time to give Duck some snaps with the first team offense. The OC sees what Rudolph is capable of in practice and picks plays according to Rudolphs ability and if this is all he has got why not give Hodges some opportunity

[86WARD]

The play designs are horrible. Those are what is limiting Rudolph’s progressions. There’s zero creativity to run the routes in a way to get receivers open. They are still trying to play Ben/AB backyard ball with players that are maybe 25% the talent that Ben/AB are.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

So basically we have a pussy OC and QB?

[DesertSteel]

Yeah Fichtner is a freaking genius. He’s a pathetic OC.

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How do you start a small business? Easy. Start a large business and put Fichtner in charge.

[Shoes]

Yeah Fichtner is a freaking genius. He’s a pathetic OC.

- - - Updated - - -

How do you start a small business? Easy. Start a large business and put Fichtner in charge.

:lol:

[Mojouw]

Guys are open downfield on many plays. Mason just isn't seeing it.

[teegre]

Guys are open downfield on many plays. Mason just isn't seeing it.

Late in the game, Diontae Johnson was wiiide open. We settled for a FG.

It happens to every QB. That said, Rudolph seems to focus heavily on the dump off.

[st33lersguy]

The playcalls are horrible and the scheme is reliant on 0 and negative yard pass plays.

[Mojouw]

The playcalls are horrible and the scheme is reliant on 0 and negative yard pass plays.

I thought it was reliant on forcing the ball to AB and foolish deep shots on third downs?

[Craic]

The playcalls are horrible and the scheme is reliant on 0 and negative yard pass plays.

Okay.

So, the QB looking downfield before making the dump off is just what . . . misdirection? That is on a first-year starting QB. He's the one making the decisions. Our WRs are getting open ​downfield.

[fansince'76]

I am mad as most of you about waiving the white flag during our last possession against the Colts, but I have to disagree with those who believe Fichtner is a liability.

Fitchtner did not game plan for Samuels to set an all-time record for RB receptions this afternoon. Rudolph was clearly going through his progressions and checking down the majority of those plays. The proverbial "Fitchtner conservative offense" could attributed to WR's not gaining separation or Rudolph simply making the correct reads. I think Rudolph did a fantastic job moving the chains, not forcing the ball, and making the throws that counted today; especially to his former teammate. That's as much as you can ask for a QB's 5th career start.

Bottom line, Fitchtner has put Rudolph and our offense in the position to wins games. This team is a few fumbles and a bogus roughing the passer call away from being 7-1.

http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/kpWbVBzcSiO2I/giphy.gif

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/kpWbVBzcSiO2I/giphy.gif Working so far but pretty sure teams and defenses in the future will key on it. Like I said the OC will cost us games in the future. Wasn't for a shank field goal we lose the game! Cause of being safe!

[Edman]

I don't like Randy Fichtner, but its time to be real here. His hands are tied right now.

-He is starting what is basically a rookie backup Quarterback in an Offense built and designed around Ben, and not him.
-Said Rookie quarterback's skills do not match Ben's Offense.
-Our Receivers are young, but overall very average. They do not get seperation very well.

Fichtner's Offense was totally built and customized around Ben Roethlisberger and his skills. It doesn't scheme players open. It's designed around Ben's gunslinger style. Drop back in shotgun and just gun it. Except Ben isn't here. It's a totally different quarterback. One with a clearly different skillset who received no offseason reps and no time at all with the receivers. Mason was groomed to be the backup this season, not the starter. I guarantee you that if Mason were given the reps this offseason and the offense was built and designed around his skills, he would be taking off like nothing. Mason is forcefully pigeon-holed into being Ben in a Ben-centric offense, when he isn't Ben.

What we're seeing is essentially Mason Rudolph's training camp reps with the Starters, in actual NFL action.

What Randy can be blamed for not building a competent offensive system that works for any quarterback rather than Ben, but them's the breaks.

[86WARD]

I don't like Randy Fichtner, but its time to be real here. His hands are tied right now.

-He is starting what is basically a rookie backup Quarterback in an Offense built and designed around Ben, and not him.
-Said Rookie quarterback's skills do not match Ben's Offense.
-Our Receivers are young, but overall very average. They do not get seperation very well.

Fichtner's Offense was totally built and customized around Ben Roethlisberger and his skills. It doesn't scheme players open. It's designed around Ben's gunslinger style. Drop back in shotgun and just gun it. Except Ben isn't here. It's a totally different quarterback. One with a clearly different skillset who received no offseason reps and no time at all with the receivers. Mason was groomed to be the backup this season, not the starter. I guarantee you that if Mason were given the reps this offseason and the offense was built and designed around his skills, he would be taking off like nothing. Mason is forcefully pigeon-holed into being Ben in a Ben-centric offense, when he isn't Ben.

What we're seeing is essentially Mason Rudolph's training camp reps with the Starters, in actual NFL action.

What Randy can be blamed for not building a competent offensive system that works for any quarterback rather than Ben, but them's the breaks.

That’s exactly right and I said this as soon as Ben was hurt. It was time for Fichtner and Tomlin to start put in big boy pants and start coaching. The only thing different that we’ve seen so far is Fichtner trot out the wildcat offense. I’m sure they sat down, or at least hope they did, with Mason and go over what plays he likes and have selected plays that work with his skillset but it doesn’t seem like those are working and I’m nt convinced that there are a lot of receivers getting open downfield.

Hopefully there’s something on the intranets somewhere that will show that they indeed are getting open and Mason just isn’t getting the ball there. That way there’s some hope that it may eventually click for him...

[Edman]

We also have to shed some blame on the Offensive Line yesterday too. Poorest game since San Fran, and that may have had something to do with the conservative play calling. I’m sure the Steelers wanted to take more shots and be aggressive, but when the Offensive Line is getting handled, they can only do so much.

They will be playing Aaron Donald this week. I don’t expect the offense to have much greater success.

[AtlantaDan]

The play designs are horrible. Those are what is limiting Rudolph’s progressions. There’s zero creativity to run the routes in a way to get receivers open. They are still trying to play Ben/AB backyard ball with players that are maybe 25% the talent that Ben/AB are.

Agreed - the typically precise routes the Pats ran last night along with the multiple formations the Ravens rolled out to free up runs showed how an offense can be implemented by NFL quality coordinators.

[AtlantaDan]

I thought it was reliant on forcing the ball to AB and foolish deep shots on third downs?

Different coordinator in 2018

[Blast Furnace]

Who gives a shit about this being Ben's offense. As soon as Ben went down, this became Mason's offense and our OC should be busting his ass to design plays that work for him and the receivers. How about some fucking rub routes? How about utilizing our TE's like other teams do? How about more play action when it's 3rd and 4 or less if they want to pass the ball. No they continue to trot out the 5WR sets with no one in the backfield telling the defense all it needs to know and allows them to pin their ears back and come after Mason. No, this mismanagement of our players and the calls on their field are solely on Fichtner. He is doing a shitty job and his offensive system is stale and lame as hell! Ben ran this offense for too long and our OC doesn't seem up to the task of taking over!

[DesertSteel]

I'm convinced that the passing offense problems are 70/30 on Fichtner.

[Steeler-in-west]

Okay.

So, the QB looking downfield before making the dump off is just what . . . misdirection? That is on a first-year starting QB. He's the one making the decisions. Our WRs are getting open ​downfield.

I would think this is where coaching comes in and they get him to look for the open man on certain plays in certain areas. It’s not rocket science. Rudolph is tall, I’m sure he can see downfield.

i’m suspecting the ‘coaching him up’ is not all there.

is it any coincidence that Dupree started playing well after the change at linebackers coach ? Sometimes coaching makes a big difference

[Craic]

I'm convinced that the passing offense problems are 70/30 on Fichtner.

So, I decided to watch a bit of the coaches tape on NFL replay (sidenote, I've only had to watch like one or two games on it so far this year). Turns out, receivers are open. Not wide-open with no one around, but NFL open. Some nice route running going on. TE breaks behind the ILB and there's an opening to place the ball about 10-15 yards downfield in his hands. Instead, it's a dump off. WR far left side of the field sprints ten or fifteen yards, then stops on a dime and turns for the ball. CB still has his back turned. Dump off.

Of course, there are a few designed plays. Screens. One or two where the wheel-route is wide open. Nothing wrong with those. But this idea that our WRs are blanketed all the time is not accurate. What it seems is that Mason is giving his main receiver one look and then if he's not comfortable, hitting the dump pass.

So, they are trying to push it up the field. Not as far as we're used to with the vertical game Ben R. likes to play, but with Mason's arm strength, that's just not going to be a big part of his game. Not at least until he gets his mechanics rock solid.

Granted, I've just watched a few series of the last game, and there were a couple of players I wondered what Fichtner was doing. Mainly, the roll out near the goal line.

OH MAN! So, I'm watching some more (This is all the last game). Had a receiver on a fly pattern blowing by the CB. Mason steps to his left and . . . throws the checkdown.

---at this point, stupid NFL Network keeps losing the connection, so I quit for tonight. But no, Fitchner is not the problem. Can things be schemed better? Sure. But I'd say the problem is about 30-40 percent playcalling and 60-70 percent having an inexperienced QB afraid to let the play develop or to anticipate breaks and cuts. The few times he does it, he's hitting receivers (although Washington had to make a great catch. Moreover, I'd also guess that perhaps half that 30-40 percent is really Fitchner making the game small enough for Mason to handle. So, you see WRs lined up 5 wide, and four stop about 5 yards out to present a target for Mason to hit (he hit the checkdown on that one, too).

And, that latter part is exactly "coaching-him-up." Making the game easier for him. Heck, maybe the one look and then hit the checkdown is part of Fitchner's plan so that Mason can get settled and dialed into NFL gamespeed and passing windows. It takes some QBs a year or two to do that.

[86WARD]

So, I decided to watch a bit of the coaches tape on NFL replay (sidenote, I've only had to watch like one or two games on it so far this year). Turns out, receivers are open. Not wide-open with no one around, but NFL open. Some nice route running going on. TE breaks behind the ILB and there's an opening to place the ball about 10-15 yards downfield in his hands. Instead, it's a dump off. WR far left side of the field sprints ten or fifteen yards, then stops on a dime and turns for the ball. CB still has his back turned. Dump off.

Of course, there are a few designed plays. Screens. One or two where the wheel-route is wide open. Nothing wrong with those. But this idea that our WRs are blanketed all the time is not accurate. What it seems is that Mason is giving his main receiver one look and then if he's not comfortable, hitting the dump pass.

So, they are trying to push it up the field. Not as far as we're used to with the vertical game Ben R. likes to play, but with Mason's arm strength, that's just not going to be a big part of his game. Not at least until he gets his mechanics rock solid.

Granted, I've just watched a few series of the last game, and there were a couple of players I wondered what Fichtner was doing. Mainly, the roll out near the goal line.

OH MAN! So, I'm watching some more (This is all the last game). Had a receiver on a fly pattern blowing by the CB. Mason steps to his left and . . . throws the checkdown.

---at this point, stupid NFL Network keeps losing the connection, so I quit for tonight. But no, Fitchner is not the problem. Can things be schemed better? Sure. But I'd say the problem is about 30-40 percent playcalling and 60-70 percent having an inexperienced QB afraid to let the play develop or to anticipate breaks and cuts. The few times he does it, he's hitting receivers (although Washington had to make a great catch. Moreover, I'd also guess that perhaps half that 30-40 percent is really Fitchner making the game small enough for Mason to handle. So, you see WRs lined up 5 wide, and four stop about 5 yards out to present a target for Mason to hit (he hit the checkdown on that one, too).

And, that latter part is exactly "coaching-him-up." Making the game easier for him. Heck, maybe the one look and then hit the checkdown is part of Fitchner's plan so that Mason can get settled and dialed into NFL gamespeed and passing windows. It takes some QBs a year or two to do that.

Thanks for watching that and sharing it. Sounds like it’s more 30/70 Rudolph’s “fault”?

[AtlantaDan]

Mark Madden apparently senses blood in the water with the fan base starting to lose patience and takes a break from trashing JuJu to take a shot at Mason after the Colts game

Samuels had 13 catches, albeit for just 73 yards. I bet Rudolph nursed until he was 11

https://triblive.com/sports/mark-madden-its-still-hard-to-get-too-optimistic-about-steelers/

[DesertSteel]

Thanks for watching that and sharing it. Sounds like it’s more 30/70 Rudolph’s “fault”?
I still say he’s doing what he’s told.

[Craic]

I still say he’s doing what he’s told.

Okay, so, let's say he's doing what he's told. That would mean he looks for his primary receiver. Then, if he doesn't see he's open, the second look in his progression is the check down. Tell me, isn't that exactly how you protect a young QB while allowing him to grow? Start with all checkdown passes to the RB. Then, let him go through a 1 step progression. Once he has that, you move to a two step progression. Then, a three step. If one gets to be a bit much, you back up to the previous for a while.

All this talk about the coaching staff's inability to coach, and then they get blamed for doing it wrong when they actually coach a QB into playing halfway well.

The problem isn't the method or the style. It, in my opinion is the issue of Mason not yet being completely comfortable with timing at the NFL level. He's unsure of what is an "open" receiver and so he goes to his checkdown instead. As 86Ward says, that means it is Mason's "fault," and 86W properly put that word in quotation marks. Why? because it isn't fault as in he did something wrong, rather, it's "fault" as in that is where Mason is at in his QB development.

I have no idea why people think Mason should be able to handle an entire progression at this game speed. Since he isn't comfortable with time at the NFL level yet, he is also not yet able to throw players open. There were a few other plays that I didn't list as players getting open. However, had Ben or any mid to upper tier QB been under center, they would have thrown them open without an issue. Again, I don't expect Mason to be able to do that yet. But, I'm also not blaming the coaching staff for players not getting open, or being in a position where they can be thrown open. They are.

Side Note: Madden is simply an idiot.

[GoSlash27]

Not wide-open with no one around, but NFL open.

That is something that rookie QBs have to learn by experience. His one shot to an NFL open receiver wound up as an interception because it bounced off of JuJu's hands. Rudolph's just getting into the swing of things. Give him time.


i think its time to give Duck some snaps with the first team offense.
No. Just no.

[dislocatedday]

I'm not going to profess to know exactly why there are so many checkdowns or passes within just a few yards of the line of scrimmage. I don't go back and watch game film to look for these things. My best guess is that Rudolph may not yet have adjusted to what is considered an open receiver in the NFL, as open in the NFL is a lot tighter than what open in college is.......so he might be afraid to release the ball into tighter coverage windows. It's also possible the coaches (Fichtner) are constantly telling him over and over "just don't turn the ball over" and this in turn has made Mason reticent to throw the ball downfield. I remember reading after Ben's first Super Bowl (SB 40) that leading up to that game that Cowher was in Ben's ear constantly telling him don't make mistakes, do this, don't do that..........that it totally made Ben question himself during the game. Ben had played great the previous 3 playoff games to get there, so the coaches should have just relaxed and let him play his game (if these stories are in fact true).

There are a lot of things I like about Rudolph. He does seem to go through his reads and not lock onto his first receiver. He just needs to process those reads more quickly I think. I also like that all indications are that he is a workaholic and will put in the effort to improve. Tough situations on the field also don't seem to faze him, and he has shown so far that he can respond to being down or facing adverse conditions. That last point is HUGE IMO, and that mental toughness always seems to separate QBs that have the potential for great things from those that don't.

I do have some concerns about his arm strength at this point, but I also have noticed that when his passes lack velocity or wobble that he tends to not step into those throws. I think those issues can be ironed out.

[Fire Goodell]

People have short memories, yeah Duck won his first start, but he basically did the same thing that Mason's been doing. And he's been doing it worse, the one pass he threw in SD past 10 yards got intercepted.

Look, I like Duck Hodges as much as the next person, but there's a lot of college QB's who ball out at that level, who just can't cut it as a starter at the NFL level. Mason imo has a better chance of being that starter caliber guy. We have to be patient with the guy. No, he's never gonna be Ben, but as far as stats go he's playing at a Neil O'Donnell level, and honestly I'm ok with that right now.

[Craic]

That is something that rookie QBs have to learn by experience. His one shot to an NFL open receiver wound up as an interception because it bounced off of JuJu's hands. Rudolph's just getting into the swing of things. Give him time.


I have no problem with that. My response here is to the idea that we are not getting WRs open because the coaches suck. That's not true at all. WRs are getting open. It's NFL game-speed open. The fault isn't on the coaches. It's on Mason. And, at this point in his career, I have no problem with him having that fault because expecting anything more halfway through his first year is a pipe dream. If he makes it in the NFL, it will be as a precision passer based out of good mechanics. That means timing and repetition, and that could take two or three years to really nail.

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No. Just no.

Yep, that's my response at this point as well. I wanted Duck to stay as a starter because I thought he gave us more options due to a bit stronger arm. But at this point, Mason's done nothing to lose his starter position. Had first-half Mason against Miami continued into second-half Mason and even into this week, then I'd say perhaps we should think about it.

[AtlantaDan]

I have no problem with that. My response here is to the idea that we are not getting WRs open because the coaches suck. That's not true at all. WRs are getting open. It's NFL game-speed open. The fault isn't on the coaches. It's on Mason. And, at this point in his career, I have no problem with him having that fault because expecting anything more halfway through his first year is a pipe dream. If he makes it in the NFL, it will be as a precision passer based out of good mechanics. That means timing and repetition, and that could take two or three years to really nail.

Which puts the Steelers in a quandry.

In the modern NFL the standard plan is to throw the presumed long term starter rookie QB into the deep end in his rookie season and see if he sinks or swims, while running an offense designed for his skill set in preseason. If the QB is not the answer you find out on his rookie contract and start again (usually with a new OC and sometimes new HC as well). Mahomes was not the starter until his second year but Andy Reid was highly confident he knew what he had (Mahomes had a great game in week 17 of 2017) and designed the 2018 offense around Mahomes after Alex Smith was traded.

Mason came in having to run an offense that needed to be redesigned on the fly, by an OC who is not exactly one of the great offensive minds of his generation, from what was assumed would be Ben doing pretty much what he wanted without AB to help make that sort of offense work. Assuming Ben comes back and plays at least one more season, the Steelers may have to decide whether to sign Rudolph to a new deal without him ever getting the bulk of reps in preseason in an offense designed for him rather than Ben or another season to start before his four year rookie deal expires.

Even if Ben struggles through 2020 and then packs it in, not having Rudolph locked to a new deal before the 2021 season runs the risk of Mason having a Dupree-like contract year and then being able to walk or force the Steelers into a bidding war.

Not the best scenario for deciding whether to lay out franchise QB $$ for someone.

Of course, as the linked article in The Ringer discusses, it often is a crap shoot even with a first round QB choice who is given the keys to the cars from day one

How Do NFL Teams Know When a Young QB Is Worth Building Around?

[T]hree basic tests emerged that a quarterback should pass at some point during his first few professional seasons.

1. Is this is a player you can win because of, and not in spite of? ...

2. Do the player’s strengths outnumber his weaknesses?...

3. Has the player had enough opportunity—with proper scheme, coaching, and personnel—to show whether he is a QB you can consistently compete with? The exact time frame needed to answer this question differed among the folks I spoke with, but the ballpark seemed to be around 45 starts, or about three seasons’ worth ...

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/11/5/20941743/nfl-young-quarterback-evaluation-gardner-minshew-baker-mayfield-mitchell-trubisky

[DesertSteel]

After watching some all-22 from the Colts game, there are a few occasions when Rudolph misses seeing an open receiver. I can tell from the head turns that he literally doesn't see them. Two looks and he's dumping the ball off when another look and he'd see an open receiver down the middle. But the WR's are not getting open very often either. I think Rudolph will improve. If not, we'll weather the storm of 2019 and then see how much Ben has left. I think MR is being told to take what you're given and when he sees the RB open for a 5-yard gain he's taking it. So I still put most of this on Fichtner.

[SteelMember]

I think Mason is scanning the field plenty to make reads... 'cause he's taking enough time to go through the progressions twice in some cases. :chuckle:

There are two things happening here, imo. He wants to get rid of the ball quickly, but make a safe play. He looks for the primary read, then either makes that pass or goes to the checkdown.
We talk about the "window" of open in the NFL, and most times the QB has to see it before it actually happens. (Ben's favorite back shoulder throw) Sometimes you actually have to throw a guy open. (using your eyes to look off a defender)
I just don't think he's comfortable yet of making/projecting the defensive reads and is too afraid of throwing an easy interception. Once he starts "seeing" it, whether it be from repetition and/or reviewing the film, the decisions should come faster... you'd hope anyways.

I don't mind him managing the game in safe mode for now until he gets more tape. I would like to see him get more consistency on his technique though. Even short passes seem off at times, and that's mostly on his body position. Control the nerves and work on the mechanics, because that will be the path to better play for him in the short term.

[Mojouw]

Mason Rudolph has not exhibited a single "signature" skill to build an offense around. I keep reading that Fichtner is holding him back by forcing Mason to run an offense not suited to his skill set. What offense would be suited to his skill set?

A 3 RB 2 TE offense with all checkdown routes out to the flat? 1 WR and the rest offensive lineman so he can hold the ball for 6-12 seconds before deciding to throw it away?

We can talk all we want about how Mahomes, Prescott, Wilson, Watson, etc got offenses designed for their abilities. That is because those abilities are quantum leaps from anything that Mason Rudolph has exhibited to date.

Honestly, Fichtner is designing an offense for Mason Rudolph. It is hyper conservative, asks him to do next to nothing, insulates him from the pass rush, allows him to rarely have to challenge NFL DBs at any level of the field, and moves the ball just enough to stay competitive.

I am no huge flag waver for Randy the OC, but at some point I am going to call it like I see it. Mason Rudolph is a hyper risk averse QB with inconsistent mechanics, mediocre arm strength, poor ball placement, and an inability to make quick/decisive moves through his progressions.

Can he improve on all that? I would think so. I mean, what would worse look like? Trubisky? Darnold?

[NCSteeler]

I would think this is where coaching comes in and they get him to look for the open man on certain plays in certain areas. It’s not rocket science. Rudolph is tall, I’m sure he can see downfield.

i’m suspecting the ‘coaching him up’ is not all there.

is it any coincidence that Dupree started playing well after the change at linebackers coach ? Sometimes coaching makes a big differenceConsidering we do not employ a QB coach...you're probably correct

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[DesertSteel]

Mason Rudolph has not exhibited a single "signature" skill to build an offense around. I keep reading that Fichtner is holding him back by forcing Mason to run an offense not suited to his skill set. What offense would be suited to his skill set?

A 3 RB 2 TE offense with all checkdown routes out to the flat? 1 WR and the rest offensive lineman so he can hold the ball for 6-12 seconds before deciding to throw it away?

We can talk all we want about how Mahomes, Prescott, Wilson, Watson, etc got offenses designed for their abilities. That is because those abilities are quantum leaps from anything that Mason Rudolph has exhibited to date.

Honestly, Fichtner is designing an offense for Mason Rudolph. It is hyper conservative, asks him to do next to nothing, insulates him from the pass rush, allows him to rarely have to challenge NFL DBs at any level of the field, and moves the ball just enough to stay competitive.

I am no huge flag waver for Randy the OC, but at some point I am going to call it like I see it. Mason Rudolph is a hyper risk averse QB with inconsistent mechanics, mediocre arm strength, poor ball placement, and an inability to make quick/decisive moves through his progressions.

Can he improve on all that? I would think so. I mean, what would worse look like? Trubisky? Darnold?
I think you're being way too hard on him. But I'm sure you'd be the first to be happy if you're wrong.

[Mojouw]

I think you're being way too hard on him. But I'm sure you'd be the first to be happy if you're wrong.

Of course I would. But, put it this way, if Mason Rudolph was doing exactly what he is doing for the Steelers for another team -- would anyone on this board defend his potential as an NFL QB?

According to posts on not Jets and Browns websites, Darnold and Mayfield are total and completely unsalvageable busts and should be replaced. They are playing better than Rudolph.

[NCSteeler]

Which puts the Steelers in a quandry.

In the modern NFL the standard plan is to throw the presumed long term starter rookie QB into the deep end in his rookie season and see if he sinks or swims, while running an offense designed for his skill set in preseason. If the QB is not the answer you find out on his rookie contract and start again (usually with a new OC and sometimes new HC as well). Mahomes was not the starter until his second year but Andy Reid was highly confident he knew what he had (Mahomes had a great game in week 17 of 2017) and designed the 2018 offense around Mahomes after Alex Smith was traded.

Mason came in having to run an offense that needed to be redesigned on the fly, by an OC who is not exactly one of the great offensive minds of his generation, from what was assumed would be Ben doing pretty much what he wanted without AB to help make that sort of offense work. Assuming Ben comes back and plays at least one more season, the Steelers may have to decide whether to sign Rudolph to a new deal without him ever getting the bulk of reps in preseason in an offense designed for him rather than Ben or another season to start before his four year rookie deal expires.

Even if Ben struggles through 2020 and then packs it in, not having Rudolph locked to a new deal before the 2021 season runs the risk of Mason having a Dupree-like contract year and then being able to walk or force the Steelers into a bidding war.

Not the best scenario for deciding whether to lay out franchise QB $$ for someone.

Of course, as the linked article in The Ringer discusses, it often is a crap shoot even with a first round QB choice who is given the keys to the cars from day one

How Do NFL Teams Know When a Young QB Is Worth Building Around?

[T]hree basic tests emerged that a quarterback should pass at some point during his first few professional seasons.

1. Is this is a player you can win because of, and not in spite of? ...

2. Do the player’s strengths outnumber his weaknesses?...

3. Has the player had enough opportunity—with proper scheme, coaching, and personnel—to show whether he is a QB you can consistently compete with? The exact time frame needed to answer this question differed among the folks I spoke with, but the ballpark seemed to be around 45 starts, or about three seasons’ worth ...

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/11/5/20941743/nfl-young-quarterback-evaluation-gardner-minshew-baker-mayfield-mitchell-trubisky
I've been accused of just repeating myself, but again don't we think a young QB would benefit from actual position coaching. Idc what Ben needed or wanted! If this team is ever going to draft and develop a young QB they need to start paying respect to position coach. It's absolutely crazy.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[DesertSteel]

Of course I would. But, put it this way, if Mason Rudolph was doing exactly what he is doing for the Steelers for another team -- would anyone on this board defend his potential as an NFL QB?

According to posts on not Jets and Browns websites, Darnold and Mayfield are total and completely unsalvageable busts and should be replaced. They are playing better than Rudolph.
You really think Darnold is playing better than Rudolph?! I'll take Rudy's performance over mono boy. What about Trubisky? Mayfield is putting up more yards, but has 3x the picks.

[Edman]

Of course I would. But, put it this way, if Mason Rudolph was doing exactly what he is doing for the Steelers for another team -- would anyone on this board defend his potential as an NFL QB?

According to posts on not Jets and Browns websites, Darnold and Mayfield are total and completely unsalvageable busts and should be replaced. They are playing better than Rudolph.

No. I would say just Mason is doing his part to help the team win. I don’t care about Mason’s “potential” if it doesn’t lead the team anywhere. Potential can only go so far. If Mason were increasingly careless with the football and offered nothing else otherwise to the teams wins, would you say he was playing better than this other NFL youngster who isn’t making critical mistakes or regressing?

The Browns and Jets are currently in disappointing seasons with greater expectations than the Steelers, with 1st round quarterbacks in their second year with offenses built around them, and they still suck. In fact, Mayfield and Darnold look to have regressed.

Mason Rudolph has this team dreaming again of not only talking playoffs, but potentially a division title after losing Ben and a catastrophic start that usually spells doom. If you think any Brown or Jet fan wouldn’t gladly trade places with the Steelers right now, you’re crazy.

Our season may be shot to hell, but man, our quarterback has POTENTIAL.

[AtlantaDan]

I've been accused of just repeating myself, but again don't we think a young QB would benefit from actual position coaching. Idc what Ben needed or wanted! If this team is ever going to draft and develop a young QB they need to start paying respect to position coach. It's absolutely crazy.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

Agree completely - they had Fichtner as QB coach for a decade when the QBs were Ben and vets like Batch and Leftwich but when Fichtner was promoted to OC they did not backfill the QB coach position when the backups were Dobbs and Rudolph

This came up during the game thread during Mason’s craptastic first half against the Dolphins - I posted this link that 27 of 32 teams had a QB coach as a separate designated position on the coaching staff in 2018

https://es.pn/2v5pvW2

Mason apparently knows he can use some additional coaching and paid for it himself during the offseason

Without the benefit of a dedicated quarterbacks coach like many of his peers around the NFL enjoy, Rudolph has been forced to take it upon himself to find help with his game from outside the organization (https://theathletic.com/1003174/2019/05/30/the-throwing-doctor-helped-mason-rudolph-and-its-showing-this-spring/).

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/6/8/18657733/steelers-quarterback-mason-rudolph-looking-to-make-huge-strides-for-his-rookie-season-nfl-news

[Mojouw]

Fair enough. Everyone can think about this however they want to.

I see nothing that makes me think that Mason Rudolph is anything but a limited capability NFL back-up. As bad as Darnold and Mayfield are playing and as poor as their team's records are; I see more to work with in each of those players than I do in Rudolph. Honestly, if Baker Mayfield was behind the Steelers offensive line, that might solve like 70% of his issues. Darnold is also behind a terrible line with few weapons. Even Allen in Carolina and Minshew in Jax look better than Rudolph.

The only thing that Rudolph has on these other QBs is that Rudolph has yet to have the disaster game that the others have had. I guess we could argue that this is his core "skill" -- not screwing the pooch. However, I wold argue that as recently as last season and this off-season, Steelers fans would vehemently argue that a team with a "don't screw it up" QB (say Dalton, A. Smith, R. Tannehill, etc) was a team that the Steelers should easily beat and were not to be taken seriously as a contender.

Now that the Steelers are in that situation, it is another story? Now it is a positive that the QB struggles to throw 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, has seemingly forgotten how to challenge a defense, has sloppy mechanics, and is slow to make reads because he doesn't turn the ball over? I find that hard to get on board with.

Again, I strongly believe that if Mason Rudolph was doing what he is doing for the 2019 Steelers in another uniform and that team came into Heinz Field, everyone would be demanding that the Steelers blow out this "joke" of a team and their "fraudulent game manager QB" by 21+ points.

- - - Updated - - -


Agree completely - they had Fichtner as QB coach for a decade when the QBs were Ben and vets like Batch and Leftwich but when Fichtner was promoted to OC they did not backfill the QB coach position when the backups were Dobbs and Rudolph

This came up during the game thread during Mason’s craptastic first half against the Dolphins - I posted this link that 27 of 32 teams had a QB coach as a separate designated position on the coaching staff in 2018

https://es.pn/2v5pvW2

Mason apparently knows he can use some additional coaching and paid for it himself during the offseason

Without the benefit of a dedicated quarterbacks coach like many of his peers around the NFL enjoy, Rudolph has been forced to take it upon himself to find help with his game from outside the organization (https://theathletic.com/1003174/2019/05/30/the-throwing-doctor-helped-mason-rudolph-and-its-showing-this-spring/).

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/6/8/18657733/steelers-quarterback-mason-rudolph-looking-to-make-huge-strides-for-his-rookie-season-nfl-news

While I am totally on-board with the QB coach thing, I do think getting your own coaching in the off-season is a totally common and normal part of NFL life across several positions.

However, I believe that the Steelers coaching staff problems extend beyond a lack of QB. Their staff is old and much of it has "graduated" through their internal system. There is little outside perspective and few "fresh" ideas. For a rough analogy, there is a reason that graduate programs at Universities do not want students to come from their own undergraduate system. It is strongly believed that each student needs to go out and get other perspectives and that the system needs outside thoughts to keep it fresh.

The lack of outside thoughts and youth in the Steelers staff is a problem, in my opinion.

[86WARD]

From what I recall, Rudolph does a fairly good job running the quick decision passes meaning the Patriots style offense. Take the snap, make two reads, throw the pass. Done./,:

Someone who watched the 22 films - what kind of routes are the receivers running? Is the offense creative? Are they running routes that are running receivers open or is it just the basic route tree? Watching the game on TV versus watching other offenses, fichtners offense appears to be very simple and straight forward. Is that an accurate assessment?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Agree completely - they had Fichtner as QB coach for a decade when the QBs were Ben and vets like Batch and Leftwich but when Fichtner was promoted to OC they did not backfill the QB coach position when the backups were Dobbs and Rudolph

This came up during the game thread during Mason’s craptastic first half against the Dolphins - I posted this link that 27 of 32 teams had a QB coach as a separate designated position on the coaching staff in 2018

https://es.pn/2v5pvW2

Mason apparently knows he can use some additional coaching and paid for it himself during the offseason

Without the benefit of a dedicated quarterbacks coach like many of his peers around the NFL enjoy, Rudolph has been forced to take it upon himself to find help with his game from outside the organization (https://theathletic.com/1003174/2019/05/30/the-throwing-doctor-helped-mason-rudolph-and-its-showing-this-spring/).

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/6/8/18657733/steelers-quarterback-mason-rudolph-looking-to-make-huge-strides-for-his-rookie-season-nfl-news

Agree. A good QB coach can help development of young QB's who are sitting behind the starter, while the OC is designing gameplan and execution of it and overseeing the entire offensive position groups. Remember when QB coach Tom Clements helped guys like Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox have pro bowl seasons around 2000 - 2003?

This doesn't look like a QB that is afraid to throw the football, but something is causing him to play conservatively and a decent QB coach should be able to help him thru things, IMO.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKJ9NYaZp3M

[AtlantaDan]

While I am totally on-board with the QB coach thing, I do think getting your own coaching in the off-season is a totally common and normal part of NFL life across several positions.

However, I believe that the Steelers coaching staff problems extend beyond a lack of QB. Their staff is old and much of it has "graduated" through their internal system. There is little outside perspective and few "fresh" ideas. For a rough analogy, there is a reason that graduate programs at Universities do not want students to come from their own undergraduate system. It is strongly believed that each student needs to go out and get other perspectives and that the system needs outside thoughts to keep it fresh.

The lack of outside thoughts and youth in the Steelers staff is a problem, in my opinion.

Just noting Rudolph was motivated enough to seek out the coaching he was not getting in 2018 while Fichtner seemed to be overwhelmed with "play calling" (aka sending in suggestions to Ben - to me that was like the little kid "cutting" the grass with his toy lawnmower or riding in the shopping cart with the steering wheel) after not having done so since he was at University of Memphis over a decade before

You are spot on with the hiring and hanging on of cronies such as Joey Porter along with internal promotions for offensive line coach and both coordinators. Although in defense of Butler he turned down outside promotions when LeBeau was DC with my understanding he was told he was the DC in waiting - nobody tried to hire Fichtner away to be an OC until he was promoted to give Ben a valet. Teryl Austin is one of the exceptions to that and the improvement of the secondary after his hiring may be no coincidence

[Mojouw]

Agree. A good QB coach can help development of young QB's who are sitting behind the starter, while the OC is designing gameplan and execution of it and overseeing the entire offensive position groups. Remember when QB coach Tom Clements helped guys like Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox have pro bowl seasons around 2000 - 2003?

This doesn't look like a QB that is afraid to throw the football, but something is causing him to play conservatively and a decent QB coach should be able to help him thru things, IMO.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKJ9NYaZp3M

If a QB coach would help Mason R - then obviously I am all for it. But I will point out that in the highlight reel he is either throwing to wide open players or deep shots with his WR in single coverage with zero safety help. If he is looking for those same scenarios in the NFL - good luck. Additionally, he seems to be throwing to his first read unless the blocking breaks down. So maybe, he does need to play in another system? Or maybe he needs a McVay style coach in his ear up until the snap telling him what there is to do? Maybe he needs more time in the NFL to get his mental game going at a faster pace? I have no idea, but he looks like another really good college QB who becomes "Captain Checkdown" in the NFL. Sam Bradford anyone? Because, right now, Rudolph plays like a healthy Sam Bradford.

[Shoes]

Agree. A good QB coach can help development of young QB's who are sitting behind the starter, while the OC is designing gameplan and execution of it and overseeing the entire offensive position groups. Remember when QB coach Tom Clements helped guys like Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox have pro bowl seasons around 2000 - 2003?

This doesn't look like a QB that is afraid to throw the football, but something is causing him to play conservatively and a decent QB coach should be able to help him thru things, IMO.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKJ9NYaZp3M


Agree 100%

[SteelMember]

Ben had Mark Whipple... I think he was a big influence.
Not having a QB coach seems like someone like Fichtner thinks they know enough to do the job, or the Steelers are in the "more with less" business theory in an effort to save a couple bucks.

[SteelersNorth]

Which puts the Steelers in a quandry.

In the modern NFL the standard plan is to throw the presumed long term starter rookie QB into the deep end in his rookie season and see if he sinks or swims, while running an offense designed for his skill set in preseason. If the QB is not the answer you find out on his rookie contract and start again (usually with a new OC and sometimes new HC as well). Mahomes was not the starter until his second year but Andy Reid was highly confident he knew what he had (Mahomes had a great game in week 17 of 2017) and designed the 2018 offense around Mahomes after Alex Smith was traded.

Mason came in having to run an offense that needed to be redesigned on the fly, by an OC who is not exactly one of the great offensive minds of his generation, from what was assumed would be Ben doing pretty much what he wanted without AB to help make that sort of offense work. Assuming Ben comes back and plays at least one more season, the Steelers may have to decide whether to sign Rudolph to a new deal without him ever getting the bulk of reps in preseason in an offense designed for him rather than Ben or another season to start before his four year rookie deal expires.

Even if Ben struggles through 2020 and then packs it in, not having Rudolph locked to a new deal before the 2021 season runs the risk of Mason having a Dupree-like contract year and then being able to walk or force the Steelers into a bidding war.

Not the best scenario for deciding whether to lay out franchise QB $$ for someone.

Of course, as the linked article in The Ringer discusses, it often is a crap shoot even with a first round QB choice who is given the keys to the cars from day one

How Do NFL Teams Know When a Young QB Is Worth Building Around?

[T]hree basic tests emerged that a quarterback should pass at some point during his first few professional seasons.

1. Is this is a player you can win because of, and not in spite of? ...

2. Do the player’s strengths outnumber his weaknesses?...

3. Has the player had enough opportunity—with proper scheme, coaching, and personnel—to show whether he is a QB you can consistently compete with? The exact time frame needed to answer this question differed among the folks I spoke with, but the ballpark seemed to be around 45 starts, or about three seasons’ worth ...

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/11/5/20941743/nfl-young-quarterback-evaluation-gardner-minshew-baker-mayfield-mitchell-trubisky


In reference to 1, 2 and 3 I knew as a fan with Ben after I think his 4th start against Dallas, and iced it hammering the Patriots.
I see none of that YET with Rudolph. Personally I find him more of a liability but we're stuck until 2020 :_(
such is life of being an NFL fan

[Mojouw]

So for an interesting benchmark, search for Dak Prescott on this site. The consensus is that he is average and can, at best, pilot a team to a 9-7 record unless everything around him is top notch. Ok, fine.

Then where would Mason Rudolph slot in? Worse than Dak. But better than Darnold, Trubisky, and Baker (since that was made pretty clear). So like the 26th or 28th QB in the league.

I'll buy some of that is coaching. I'll buy some of that is scheme. I'll buy that some of it is inexperience. But I think we need to start contemplating the fact that Mason Rudolph does not demonstrate the tools needed to be a top 50% QB in the NFL.

I'm not sure anything is wrong with that. I'm not blaming anyone associated with the Steelers or even trying to put Rudolph on blast. Just kinda trying to stake out a base point for the overall conversation regarding QB and the 2019 and 2020 Pittsburgh Steelers.

[DesertSteel]

Mojo, until I see him try and fail I’ll not share your conclusive opinion. Your sample size is 5 starts and his record is 3-2 with a 10/4 TD/Int ratio. When the offense gets more vertical and he fails (e.g., come from behind), I’ll join your position.

[Mojouw]

Mojo, until I see him try and fail I’ll not share your conclusive opinion. Your sample size is 5 starts and his record is 3-2 with a 10/4 TD/Int ratio. When the offense gets more vertical and he fails (e.g., come from behind), I’ll join your position.

Also good points. I hope I am way wrong.

But just like you are not ready to make a final determination on Rudolph, I am willing to give the same leeway to Fichtner. While I don't think he is any great shakes as an OC, not sure he is really the major part of the problem.

Although I will concede that it is possible that good ole Randy might not be up to the task of being part of the solution.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

If a QB coach would help Mason R - then obviously I am all for it. But I will point out that in the highlight reel he is either throwing to wide open players or deep shots with his WR in single coverage with zero safety help. If he is looking for those same scenarios in the NFL - good luck. Additionally, he seems to be throwing to his first read unless the blocking breaks down. So maybe, he does need to play in another system? Or maybe he needs a McVay style coach in his ear up until the snap telling him what there is to do? Maybe he needs more time in the NFL to get his mental game going at a faster pace? I have no idea, but he looks like another really good college QB who becomes "Captain Checkdown" in the NFL. Sam Bradford anyone? Because, right now, Rudolph plays like a healthy Sam Bradford.

Actually it isn't the "deep shots" that you mention which I recognize most, but rather that in this OK St highlight pack he is mostly deciding at the LOS who he is throwing to and only getting to a secondary read maybe 30% of the time. Sure the windows are larger in college and the WR's look to have 2-3 steps on their DB's, but in that video series he throws 9's, posts, slants, digs and at times moves to his 2nd and 3rd read, plus evades the rush and scrambles to complete passes. Its not all throwing deep to wide open WR's in fact I recall one deep seam where there was a safety and DB.

Personally, I don't think McVay or any coach is on the headset in a QB ear up until the snap of the football. Its too distracting and that work needs to be done during the week for recognition of defenses, pre snap reads and progressions, blitz protections and recognition.

The point is that he isn't unable to push the ball downfield, but that isn't always the right read either. I think the kid has all the tools to be a decent QB in the NFL and the work he did in the offseason on his footwork was looking good, but who knows if what he learned from Tom House is being contradicted in the current system, or if he is just lapsing from it. Some guys like to pistol/shotgun snap with a spiral, some with a dead ball and some OC's like to reverse pivot on a pitch, while others don't.....you have to do what your coaches on the field tell you and I don't really know or trust that Fichtner is the guy to coach up a young QB, as I don't know the track record of who he has improved ever at QB.

[DesertSteel]

I'm just glad that we all still have something to argue about even though the team has won 4 of 5 with 2nd and 3rd string QBs...

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I'm just glad that we all still have something to argue about even though the team has won 4 of 5 with 2nd and 3rd string QBs...

Thing is, the board sounds like they lost 4 of 5.

The saddest thing so far this season was the Steeler fans booing Rudolph against Miami in the 2nd quarter on the 3rd offensive series. It was a point in my life where I was ashamed to be a Steeler fan and be associated with those kinds of douchebags.

[Mojouw]

Actually it isn't the "deep shots" that you mention which I recognize most, but rather that in this OK St highlight pack he is mostly deciding at the LOS who he is throwing to and only getting to a secondary read maybe 30% of the time. Sure the windows are larger in college and the WR's look to have 2-3 steps on their DB's, but in that video series he throws 9's, posts, slants, digs and at times moves to his 2nd and 3rd read, plus evades the rush and scrambles to complete passes. Its not all throwing deep to wide open WR's in fact I recall one deep seam where there was a safety and DB.

Personally, I don't think McVay or any coach is on the headset in a QB ear up until the snap of the football. Its too distracting and that work needs to be done during the week for recognition of defenses, pre snap reads and progressions, blitz protections and recognition.

The point is that he isn't unable to push the ball downfield, but that isn't always the right read either. I think the kid has all the tools to be a decent QB in the NFL and the work he did in the offseason on his footwork was looking good, but who knows if what he learned from Tom House is being contradicted in the current system, or if he is just lapsing from it. Some guys like to pistol/shotgun snap with a spiral, some with a dead ball and some OC's like to reverse pivot on a pitch, while others don't.....you have to do what your coaches on the field tell you and I don't really know or trust that Fichtner is the guy to coach up a young QB, as I don't know the track record of who he has improved ever at QB.

I understand that he is throwing all the routes and whatnot. But he is making one read at the LOS and then hitting a guy who has a pretty good amount of separation from his defender. Not a surprise in a college spread offense. That is exactly what it is designed to do - make the reads clear and obvious pre-snap and have receivers running away from defenders to open space.

In contrast, regardless of system you run in the NFL, you are going to have much more disguise by the defense, and much more contested coverage on receivers. What I see when I watch the games, and I may not be understanding what I am seeing properly, is that the defense is trying to show Mason one thing pre-snap and then do another right after the ball is snapped. It "resets" his reads and decision making. He then takes a long time to process/trust what he is seeing and holds on to the ball. The timing of the entire play breaksdown and he is forced to find a dump off.

As to the McVay in the headset thing, I can only go by what has been widely reported by the Rams, Goff, McVay, and other NFL pundits. Who knows what the truth is.

For the mechanics and whatnot, again, I am not really debating that. But, for me, Mason R has a significant number of things to do with play recognition and decision making before I worry about his footwork. I mean if you can't figure out where the ball is supposed to go, who cares about your mechanics? I think, again solely an opinion, that when Mason gets more confident about his reads, suddenly his mechanics will vastly improve.

[GoSlash27]

I think we're all just gonna have to be patient this year. This isn't going to be the aerial circus offense we've grown accustomed to. Rudolph is still developing and (IMO) hasn't hit his ceiling yet. The game is still fast for him and he's just trying to not screw up. This WR corps also doesn't appear quite as good as previous years, though once Rudolph hones in on what "NFL open" looks like, they may get the chance to prove themselves.
We're going to have to get by with a balanced run/ pass attack and rely on our defense to help out. We don't actually *need* big shots down the field. We just need to stay on schedule and keep the chains moving.

[AtlantaDan]

Thing is, the board sounds like they lost 4 of 5.

The saddest thing so far this season was the Steeler fans booing Rudolph against Miami in the 2nd quarter on the 3rd offensive series. It was a point in my life where I was ashamed to be a Steeler fan and be associated with those kinds of douchebags.

Depends which threads on the board you read to conclude if the team has been playing well or not

It is a tale of two teams - we have threads praising the Minkah trade and Dupree finally playing up to the expectations of a first round pick

But the offense indisputably is horrible with, as is often the case, the QB getting either the credit or the blame - this from Bouchette in The Athletic (paywalled) on the offensive stats and the raggedy crews the Steelers offense is hanging with

The Steelers’ offense ranks 28th in the NFL in yards produced with only the Bears, Dolphins, Redskins and Jets lower. They rank 27th in passing (202.4 per game) and 26th in rushing (88.4). That’s not what their coaches mean when they say they strive for balance on offense.

https://theathletic.com/1350691/2019/11/05/steelers-climb-back-into-playoff-picture-but-are-they-are-far-from-a-threat/?source=shared-article

[dislocatedday]

Depends which threads on the board you read to conclude if the team has been playing well or not

It is a tale of two teams - we have threads praising the Minkah trade and Dupree finally playing up to the expectations of a first round pick

But the offense indisputably is horrible with, as is often the case, the QB getting either the credit or the blame - this from Bouchette in The Athletic (paywalled) on the offensive stats and the raggedy crews the Steelers offense is hanging with

The Steelers’ offense ranks 28th in the NFL in yards produced with only the Bears, Dolphins, Redskins and Jets lower. They rank 27th in passing (202.4 per game) and 26th in rushing (88.4). That’s not what their coaches mean when they say they strive for balance on offense.

https://theathletic.com/1350691/2019/11/05/steelers-climb-back-into-playoff-picture-but-are-they-are-far-from-a-threat/?source=shared-article



Yowzers!!.......I had no idea the Steelers offense was that low in yards produced and ranked at 28th. Being put in any offensive category with the Bears, Dolphins, Jets, and Redskins is not something as a Steelers fan I want to hear.

I guess the defense is playing even better than I thought though since the team is at .500 currently.

[86WARD]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown. He’s definitely not going through a full progression. He’s being coached to do what he’s doing...which is common with younger QBs.

So there may be routes open downfield but those may not be the routes that Rudolph is being told to throw to. His primary read may be covered and again, he’s not being coached to hit those other reads.

My theory on why we saw Hodges slinging it a little more was that he took more chances on that first read. Why? Cause he’s got a lot less to lose than Rudolph roster-wise. Duck wasn’t on a team a couple months ago so he’s just making the best of the chance he has...similar to Rudolph in the preseason...no pressure.

[Mojouw]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown. He’s definitely not going through a full progression. He’s being coached to do what he’s doing...which is common with younger QBs.

So there may be routes open downfield but those may not be the routes that Rudolph is being told to throw to. His primary read may be covered and again, he’s not being coached to hit those other reads.

My theory on why we saw Hodges slinging it a little more was that he took more chances on that first read. Why? Cause he’s got a lot less to lose than Rudolph roster-wise. Duck wasn’t on a team a couple months ago so he’s just making the best of the chance he has...similar to Rudolph in the preseason...no pressure.

I dunno. These moving pictures look like a hesitant QB afraid of challenging a defense:

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/11/8/20951913/analyzing-mason-rudolphs-inconsistent-play-against-the-colts-in-week-9-steelers-film-room-nfl-news

[pczach]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown. He’s definitely not going through a full progression. He’s being coached to do what he’s doing...which is common with younger QBs.

So there may be routes open downfield but those may not be the routes that Rudolph is being told to throw to. His primary read may be covered and again, he’s not being coached to hit those other reads.

My theory on why we saw Hodges slinging it a little more was that he took more chances on that first read. Why? Cause he’s got a lot less to lose than Rudolph roster-wise. Duck wasn’t on a team a couple months ago so he’s just making the best of the chance he has...similar to Rudolph in the preseason...no pressure.



If that were true, there would never be a need to scramble, get sacked, or hold onto the ball for any reason.

[Mojouw]

I don't think this is any secret at this time, but my stance is that right now Mason Rudolph is one of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL. Duck Hodges is even worse than that. The only times that Rudolph looks competent is coming into the game and out of the half. Guess what, those are the drives that offenses can run scripted plays. QB is told, you are going to see exactly this and then you will do exactly that and it will work like this over here. When he has to process reads and coverages on his own, he locks up and retreats to the check-down throw. That is barely a competent NFL offense. If the defense was not regularly providing them with shortened fields, the Steelers would struggle to score 10 points.

Is that to say Rudolph is hopeless? Of course not, that would be extreme and foolish. But he has a long long way to go. I certainly hope that the Steelers are successful in 2019 and Rudolph progresses each week. But I think the undercurrent that this is somehow going to end up as a team challenging for a division and then making a noisy playoff run as a wildcard is comical. I hate to be Debbie Downer, but what happens when the Steelers run into a team that doesn't turn the ball over? What happens when they play the Ravens again with Jimmy Smith, Earl Thomas, Marlon Humphrey, and Marcus Peters patrolling the secondary? Does anyone seriously believe that an offense featuring 2-4 yard hits to the RB and draw plays is going to be enough?

I'm going to watch every game until the bitter end and will entering each week hoping for a win. But, I think the this is on the coaches and Mason Rudolph or maybe Devlin Hodges is a pretty decent QB stuff has to get reined in a bit. Can they be? Who knows. Are they in Week 10 of the 2019 NFL season? Absolutely not.

[86WARD]

If that were true, there would never be a need to scramble, get sacked, or hold onto the ball for any reason.

He doesn’t scramble, he doesn’t get sacked and he hits the check down in a reasonable amount of time. Some times there’s hesitation but at the same time, he’s still learning.

[86WARD]

I dunno. These moving pictures look like a hesitant QB afraid of challenging a defense:

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/11/8/20951913/analyzing-mason-rudolphs-inconsistent-play-against-the-colts-in-week-9-steelers-film-room-nfl-news

That still really only shows he’s looking at one read. I think he’s definitely hesitant whether he should throw to the one read or look for the safe checkdown.

I still think they are limiting him to simplify this whole thing for him.

[DesertSteel]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown.
100% agree. Same thing I see.

[NCSteeler]

I don’t know if it’s him or his coaching'
,but I do know they aren’t going to win many games playing the current offense.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pczach]

He doesn’t scramble, he doesn’t get sacked and he hits the check down in a reasonable amount of time. Some times there’s hesitation but at the same time, he’s still learning.


He got knocked unconscious scrambling to extend the play.
If he only had a single read and then checked down, he would never get touched, he would never get sacked, he would never fumble.

Again, I'm not crushing him. I'm commenting on what's happening. I'm a defender of him and I still think he will get better and that he has potential for more growth. But what I'm not going to do is pretend he's perfect to try to protect him. I'm simply describing what I believe are areas of his game he needs to improve, and giving reasons why I think that based on what I see when I watch him play.

[86WARD]

He got knocked unconscious scrambling to extend the play.
If he only had a single read and then checked down, he would never get touched, he would never get sacked, he would never fumble.

Again, I'm not crushing him. I'm commenting on what's happening. I'm a defender of him and I still think he will get better and that he has potential for more growth. But what I'm not going to do is pretend he's perfect to try to protect him. I'm simply describing what I believe are areas of his game he needs to improve, and giving reasons why I think that based on what I see when I watch him play.

I’d have to go back and rewatch earlier too which I don’t have access to. Maybe it was different before the concussion. These last couple games, only a few times has he moved out of the pocket...I mean he hangs in there until it’s obstructing his throwing motion...

I’ll agree, he has a lot to work on and frankly, I’m beginning to think he’s not the answer and not even close to the answer for when Ben retires. We could probably make a pretty solid list on his problems. At the same time, I feel like he’s doing what the coaches are asking him to do...and maybe he’s just the kind of guy who when told to do something, he sticks to what he’s told to do?

[pczach]

I’d have to go back and rewatch earlier too which I don’t have access to. Maybe it was different before the concussion. These last couple games, only a few times has he moved out of the pocket...I mean he hangs in there until it's obstructing his throwing motion...

I’ll agree, he has a lot to work on and frankly, I’m beginning to think he’s not the answer and not even close to the answer for when Ben retires. We could probably make a pretty solid list on his problems. At the same time, I feel like he’s doing what the coaches are asking him to do...and maybe he’s just the kind of guy who when told to do something, he sticks to what he’s told to do?


What you say that I highlighted in bold in your first paragraph answers the question about whether he is coached to just look at one read and if it's not there...check down. If he only has a quick read, he wouldn't need to be standing in the pocket for 4 seconds and have the pocket collapse around him. That is simply how football works. If he does only have one read like some are suggesting and he still holds onto the ball as long as he does...then he is clearly doesn't process information quickly, is limited, and is not the answer. That scenario is as simplistic as it gets for a quarterback. That is why I commented above that he should never get touched, never get sacked, and he wouldn't have 3 fumbles. The ball should come out far too quickly to get to him in the pocket. The fans that are saying it is on the coaches telling him not to throw it down the field and limiting his progressions don't seem to understand how quarterbacking works. If he holds the ball for more than a quick look, he doesn't only have one read.

Can coaches limit some of his reads, particularly in specific situations? Sure. Even great quarterbacks play situational football sometimes. What they won't do and aren't doing is coaching him to not look down the field or go through progressions because that is the job description. He needs to be able to do that or he can't be a good NFL quarterback. Why would they have the heir apparent in the game and not groom him to do starting quarterback things? It wouldn't make sense.

Do you know what I mean?

[DesertSteel]

All I know is that I want to see some real progress from Rudy on Sunday. I’m still optimistic, unlike some who thinks he’s nothing more than a backup. He hasn’t failed yet. He hasn’t tried. Whether that’s him or Fichtner no one here knows for sure. But what I do know is that he needs to take the next step in his progression.

[Six Rings]

I am mad as most of you about waiving the white flag during our last possession against the Colts, but I have to disagree with those who believe Fichtner is a liability.

Fitchtner did not game plan for Samuels to set an all-time record for RB receptions this afternoon. Rudolph was clearly going through his progressions and checking down the majority of those plays. The proverbial "Fitchtner conservative offense" could attributed to WR's not gaining separation or Rudolph simply making the correct reads. I think Rudolph did a fantastic job moving the chains, not forcing the ball, and making the throws that counted today; especially to his former teammate. That's as much as you can ask for a QB's 5th career start.

Bottom line, Fitchtner has put Rudolph and our offense in the position to wins games. This team is a few fumbles and a bogus roughing the passer call away from being 7-1.



Randy's offense and play-calling were fine last year. Sorry Steeler fans, if it isn't evident by now that Rudolph is a back up, it will be once the turnovers stop coming in vs. a .500 or better team.


Rudloph has beaten two terrible teams ( Miami and Cincinnati ) , and the Colts. We beat the Colts thanks to a pick-six, and a stupid penalty that put the Steelers in field goal range at the end of the first half, and the Colt's dinosaur kicker missing the game-winning field goal. You just can not count on that stuff to win, week in and week out.


I read that the majority of Rudlpph's passes travel 5 yard or less. With the passes throw beyond 6 yards, he's completing but 42%. You just can't score enough points with your quarterback likely to miss on 3rd down and 6 yards or more.


Playing it safe at quarterback, being a game manager can work if your defense is playing lights out and producing turnovers ( We are +11 ) and you have a clutch kicker vs. the bad to mediocre teams.


Assuming we are playing an average to good team, and we aren't on the plus side of the turnovers...I think Rudolph will be exposed and start throwing interceptions. He lacks the arm to hit open windows down the field, which is why he's not throwing these types of passes. To complicate matters, his accuracy to hit a moving target is below average, and he's fumble prone in the pocket. Yes, he can throw a good deep ball, but it a floating type of pass, which means some of them are 50.50.


I played and coached some. By no means am I Dick Lebeau, but defenses are going to catch up on our passes to the backs sooner or later. If I was the opposing defensive coordinating, I'd bump Samules at the line, then where is he going to throw it? Exactly. He's not challenging bump and run or single coverage. He's not hitting many slants routes either. Last game Ju-Ju and Johnson, our starting receivers had less than 35 combined yards receiving. Essentially our starting wide receivers are a 2nd or 3rd option for the passing game these days.

[Six Rings]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown. He’s definitely not going through a full progression. He’s being coached to do what he’s doing...which is common with younger QBs.

So there may be routes open downfield but those may not be the routes that Rudolph is being told to throw to. His primary read may be covered and again, he’s not being coached to hit those other reads.

My theory on why we saw Hodges slinging it a little more was that he took more chances on that first read. Why? Cause he’s got a lot less to lose than Rudolph roster-wise. Duck wasn’t on a team a couple months ago so he’s just making the best of the chance he has...similar to Rudolph in the preseason...no pressure.





You can ask any OC or head coach, and they will tell you they aren't sure where the ball is going on a pass play. It's up to the QB to find the open man and sling it. I see Rookies and 2nd-year players throwing it all over the field. Of course, they have better arms and mobility, every one of them, which is a reason why they can do it. Its not the coaching. Its the player


Hodges sees the field much better. I'm not saying he's the answer, but I am saying he's more likely to give his receivers a chance for yardage.


This isn't the big 12. NFL DB's close much faster on the ball, and I think the windows and separation his receivers were able to get in the Big 12 just aren't there in the NFL. In the NFL you need accuracy beyond 5 yards and ball velocity to hit guys on the move who are open by just a yard or two. Rudolph doesn't have this. His football arrives a tick later, which means you're flirting with an interception, and deeps outs or square in's are stuff he's not going to throw. The Big 12 is a QB friendly, poor defensive conference in college football. A reason I thought Baker Mayfield was overrated, yet he was picked #1 overall. How's that working now?

[86WARD]

What you say that I highlighted in bold in your first paragraph answers the question about whether he is coached to just look at one read and if it's not there...check down. If he only has a quick read, he wouldn't need to be standing in the pocket for 4 seconds and have the pocket collapse around him. That is simply how football works. If he does only have one read like some are suggesting and he still holds onto the ball as long as he does...then he is clearly doesn't process information quickly, is limited, and is not the answer. That scenario is as simplistic as it gets for a quarterback. That is why I commented above that he should never get touched, never get sacked, and he wouldn't have 3 fumbles. The ball should come out far too quickly to get to him in the pocket. The fans that are saying it is on the coaches telling him not to throw it down the field and limiting his progressions don't seem to understand how quarterbacking works. If he holds the ball for more than a quick look, he doesn't only have one read.

Can coaches limit some of his reads, particularly in specific situations? Sure. Even great quarterbacks play situational football sometimes. What they won't do and aren't doing is coaching him to not look down the field or go through progressions because that is the job description. He needs to be able to do that or he can't be a good NFL quarterback. Why would they have the heir apparent in the game and not groom him to do starting quarterback things? It wouldn't make sense.

Do you know what I mean?

I do get what your saying. But I think to your point about the hesitation, that’s why the pocket is collapsing around him because he is watching that one read and hoping it comes open and then taking the checkdown. I really don’t think there is a full sense of progression going through his head.

I’m also still not convinced that the offense has changed any to cater to Rudolph.

[86WARD]

You can ask any OC or head coach, and they will tell you they aren't sure where the ball is going on a pass play.

#

That’s not true. Plays are schemed to get specific players open on specific plays all the time. I know this from playing myself. Some plays are designed to throw it to certain players and the coaches know exactly where the ball should go. Is it every play? No of course not. But there’s a good amount and f plays that are designed for one player.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That’s not true. Plays are schemed to get specific players open on specific plays all the time. I know this from playing myself. Some plays are designed to throw it to certain players and the coaches know exactly where the ball should go. Is it every play? No of course not. But there’s a good amount and f plays that are designed for one player.

I agree that you know where the primary target is for the pass and as a coach I can tell where the ball is going if the QB makes the correct read and the route is advantageous to the coverage given. I don't agree that plays are designed for one player, but there is a primary read on most.

The highest level I have coached is only highschool, but I can honestly say that over 50% of the pass plays that the OC calls, I can see pre snap who has the best matchup and where the football should go. The number would be higher if I was coaching WR's as a position group, but if I am coaching O line, D-line, LB, DB's, etc then I am not that focused on the route combinations.

[Born2Steel]

Plays are designed to go to a specific player at a specific spot all the time. Many teams actually script their first drive or 15 or so plays even. There are also plays designed to tell if a defense or player is in zone or man and depending on that read the ball goes to a specific player and spot. Rhythm offense/timing routes live and die on these very schemes.

[Six Rings]

That’s not true. Plays are schemed to get specific players open on specific plays all the time. I know this from playing myself. Some plays are designed to throw it to certain players and the coaches know exactly where the ball should go. Is it every play? No of course not. But there’s a good amount and f plays that are designed for one player.

Yes it is true, and I've heard NFL coaches say it.

You can have a primary target, but what if he isn't open, or the QB doesn't see him open? Hence coaches cant be for sure where the ball if going on a pass play, maybe its it's a dump off or shovel pass okay they know where it is going. I doubt the Steeler coaches are telling Rudolph not to throw is 5 yards or more down the field unless maybe if we are up by two scores after in a game.

[DesertSteel]

It's easy to criticize Rudy and say he doesn't have the ability because if he shows otherwise you just get on the "I'm glad I was wrong" pedestal. Let it be known, I'm saying he has what it takes and if I'm wrong I'm just eating crow.

[Craic]

It's easy to criticize Rudy and say he doesn't have the ability because if he shows otherwise you just get on the "I'm glad I was wrong" pedestal. Let it be known, I'm saying he has what it takes and if I'm wrong I'm just eating crow.

True. But I really don't see the consistent arm strength that he needs to be successive in the NFL. When he steps into his passes and his mechanics are solid, then yes, it gets him over the hump. But that consistency just isn't there yet. That's going to be the make or break for him right there. If he can't get a consistent passing velocity as a baseline that he can then adjust when necessary, he also won't be consistent throwing through windows to his receivers.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yes it is true, and I've heard NFL coaches say it.

You can have a primary target, but what if he isn't open, or the QB doesn't see him open? Hence coaches cant be for sure where the ball if going on a pass play, maybe its it's a dump off or shovel pass okay they know where it is going. I doubt the Steeler coaches are telling Rudolph not to throw is 5 yards or more down the field unless maybe if we are up by two scores after in a game.

EXACTLY ! Thank you for understanding and articulating this point.

Just because a play may have a primary target, it doesn't mean that if the first player isn't open, that the QB aborts the play and checks down.

If an offense went 11 personell (1TE and 1RB), Twin WR left, TE right and ran a route combination of 1-8-3-7, then the QB would read the coverage on the left side and if man and single high safety, then he would look at the 8 on the left side first, but if not open then likely would miss the 1 on the left side and next read should be the TE on a 3 coming across and finally the 7 or throw it away.

If he reads cover 3 zone, then likely the 1 is the first read and if the CB is cover 3 and follows the slant of the 1, then the 8 could be open next and the 3rd read is the 3. Its not as simple as saying "I want to throw the 1 to JuJu from the X position and that is it on the play."

[DesertSteel]

True. But I really don't see the consistent arm strength that he needs to be successive in the NFL. When he steps into his passes and his mechanics are solid, then yes, it gets him over the hump. But that consistency just isn't there yet. That's going to be the make or break for him right there. If he can't get a consistent passing velocity as a baseline that he can then adjust when necessary, he also won't be consistent throwing through windows to his receivers.
Yes I've read all the articulations on this board of why he doesn't have it. I've also heard many analysts (paid ones) say he can make all the throws. Time will prove whether he is a starting NFL QB or not.

[pczach]

EXACTLY ! Thank you for understanding and articulating this point.

Just because a play may have a primary target, it doesn't mean that if the first player isn't open, that the QB aborts the play and checks down.

If an offense went 11 personell (1TE and 1RB), Twin WR left, TE right and ran a route combination of 1-8-3-7, then the QB would read the coverage on the left side and if man and single high safety, then he would look at the 8 on the left side first, but if not open then likely would miss the 1 on the left side and next read should be the TE on a 3 coming across and finally the 7 or throw it away.

If he reads cover 3 zone, then likely the 1 is the first read and if the CB is cover 3 and follows the slant of the 1, then the 8 could be open next and the 3rd read is the 3. Its not as simple as saying "I want to throw the 1 to JuJu from the X position and that is it on the play."


I agree. This is the part I have been trying to get people to understand.

On every play, there are multiple routes built into each play. Every pass pattern of that particular play is a live pass pattern that should expect to get the ball. There is a progression the quarterback is going to go through on every play, with the primary read being the first read, the second, third, fourth, etc... When quarterback's clock in their head or the pass rush tells them they need to get the ball out of their hand, they check down or throw the ball away.

The defense dictates where you go with the football. The primary read on the play doesn't mean that the quarterback has to throw the ball there. It is up to the quarterback to read the defense pre-snap, then recognize what his best matchups are against the defense on that play, and then be able to still react to safeties moving before or at the snap, and disguised looks that reveal themselves after the snap. At that point it is up to the quarterback to get the ball to the target with the best matchup or is open. If no down the field options are open, hit the check down, or throw it away.

It sounds so simple, but there are so many variables in play on nearly every snap that it is hard to articulate it if you haven't played the game. There is a reason why there are only a handful of men on the planet at any one time that are able to do it at an elite level.

The bottom line is that there is no NFL quarterback that only has one primary read and if it's not there, checks down. That is something you can do in situational football, but as a rule, the quarterback's job is to utilize the entire route tree that is built into every single play based on what he sees on the defensive side.

I am a Mason Rudolph fan. I want him to succeed, and I still believe he will continue to improve and become a more aggressive quarterback. But I can't just ignore what I know to be true from a football standpoint to defend Rudolph. This is not coaches stopping him from throwing the ball down the field. People just need to understand that and stop blaming coaches. These claims of coaches not wanting him to throw the ball down the field are imaginary.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I agree. This is the part I have been trying to get people to understand.

On every play, there are multiple routes built into each play. Every pass pattern of that particular play is a live pass pattern that should expect to get the ball. There is a progression the quarterback is going to go through on every play, with the primary read being the first read, the second, third, fourth, etc... When quarterback's clock in their head or the pass rush tells them they need to get the ball out of their hand, they check down or throw the ball away.

The defense dictates where you go with the football. The primary read on the play doesn't mean that the quarterback has to throw the ball there. It is up to the quarterback to read the defense pre-snap, then recognize what his best matchups are against the defense on that play, and then be able to still react to safeties moving before or at the snap, and disguised looks that reveal themselves after the snap. At that point it is up to the quarterback to get the ball to the target with the best matchup or is open. If no down the field options are open, hit the check down, or throw it away.

It sounds so simple, but there are so many variables in play on nearly every snap that it is hard to articulate it if you haven't played the game. There is a reason why there are only a handful of men on the planet at any one time that are able to do it at an elite level.

The bottom line is that there is no NFL quarterback that only has one primary read and if it's not there, checks down. That is something you can do in situational football, but as a rule, the quarterback's job is to utilize the entire route tree that is built into every single play based on what he sees on the defensive side.

I am a Mason Rudolph fan. I want him to succeed, and I still believe he will continue to improve and become a more aggressive quarterback. But I can't just ignore what I know to be true from a football standpoint to defend Rudolph. This is not coaches stopping him from throwing the ball down the field. People just need to understand that and stop blaming coaches. These claims of coaches not wanting him to throw the ball down the field are imaginary.

I agree with your bolded statement. No passing play in the NFL, other than a screen, is designed for one read and throw it away.

I do believe that coaches and coordinators can influence young QB's to be very conservative and not push the ball into potential spots, which can give them a conservative mindset.

[teegre]

It boils down to this:
Is Rudolph choosing to dump it off?... or, is he being told to dump it off???

[86WARD]

Yes it is true, and I've heard NFL coaches say it.

You can have a primary target, but what if he isn't open, or the QB doesn't see him open? Hence coaches cant be for sure where the ball if going on a pass play, maybe its it's a dump off or shovel pass okay they know where it is going. I doubt the Steeler coaches are telling Rudolph not to throw is 5 yards or more down the field unless maybe if we are up by two scores after in a game.

Lol. On certain plays it’s absolutely true.

[86WARD]

It boils down to this:
Is Rudolph choosing to dump it off?... or, is he being told to dump it off???

There were a couple/few plays that were Samuels was the very first read and that’s where he went. They definitely weren’t check-down plays. Today he did a very good job of getting the ball down the field and was doing it with very little hesitation.

Fichtner still had some questionable plays but gave the offense a lot of opportunity to make plays as well.

[teegre]

That run play by Vance McDonald on 2nd-&-20... WTF!?!

Here’s how bad that play was: I was explaining the game to my 8-year-old daughter, and she says, “Why was that guy running the ball???”

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That run play by Vance McDonald on 2nd-&-20... WTF!?!

Here’s how bad that play was: I was explaining the game to my 8-year-old daughter, and she says, “Why was that guy running the ball???”

What about 1st and 10 on your own 5 and you draw up the same Arians play action, 7 step drop with your back to the rush passing play that Ben threw an INT against the Packers in the Super Bowl?!?!?!?!?!? At least it was only a safety. :frusty:

The 4th down play was gutsy and the right call, but not sure if the play design calls for the TE and RB to be in the same pattern or if it was wrongly executed. You never want to put 2 receivers in the exact same zone. I'm hoping Vannett ran it to shallow and that isn't the way Fichtner drew it up.

[FrancoLambert]

Yes I've read all the articulations on this board of why he doesn't have it. I've also heard many analysts (paid ones) say he can make all the throws. Time will prove whether he is a starting NFL QB or not.

....and the cocksure critics onboard who are certain he’ll never have it are not willing to grant him that time. :der:

[pczach]

....and the cocksure critics onboard who are certain he’ll never have it are not willing to grant him that time. :der:



I'm with you. I get that people have doubts, but to think any of us know everything there is to know about a young quarterback after a few starts is silly.

I don't understand how people think they know what the kid will ultimately be without giving him more time. It doesn't make sense for people to definitively decide that he doesn't have it after a few games. Give the kid time. I have been critical of his game from the standpoint that there are things he is struggling with now, but I see the potential for more growth. It isn't an easy thing to evaluate a quarterback. If it were easy, everyone would have a good one. So yes, identify the weaknesses in his game or the things he struggles with because he hasn't seen them or done them before, and then watch to see if continues to work on those weaknesses and get better.

He hasn't seen everything he is going to see as a quarterback yet. Not by a longshot. There is almost as much for us to learn about him as there is for him to learn about his craft. Being a third-string quarterback really limited his reps for a full year. IMO, he is a guy that is picking things up slowly but consistently as he goes along. He certainly has guts and I like what I have seen in some big moments. He doesn't have the fear or the look of being lost like you see in so many young QB's. He has made some of his best plays in those big moments. That's the kind of stuff that you can't teach, and that's why I have been saying that I still believe he is going to get much better. Sometimes you see things in a quarterback that aren't quantifiable, but you believe he is greater than the sum of his measurable parts. I see some of that in Rudolph. Let's all give him the time to work through these things and then we will all see who he is when he comes out the other side.

[DesertSteel]

I'm with you. I get that people have doubts, but to think any of us know everything there is to know about a young quarterback after a few starts is silly.

I don't understand how people think they know what the kid will ultimately be without giving him more time. It doesn't make sense for people to definitively decide that he doesn't have it after a few games. Give the kid time. I have been critical of his game from the standpoint that there are things he is struggling with now, but I see the potential for more growth. It isn't an easy thing to evaluate a quarterback. If it were easy, everyone would have a good one. So yes, identify the weaknesses in his game or the things he struggles with because he hasn't seen them or done them before, and then watch to see if continues to work on those weaknesses and get better.

He hasn't seen everything he is going to see as a quarterback yet. Not by a longshot. There is almost as much for us to learn about him as there is for him to learn about his craft. Being a third-string quarterback really limited his reps for a full year. IMO, he is a guy that is picking things up slowly but consistently as he goes along. He certainly has guts and I like what I have seen in some big moments. He doesn't have the fear or the look of being lost like you see in so many young QB's. He has made some of his best plays in those big moments. That's the kind of stuff that you can't teach, and that's why I have been saying that I still believe he is going to get much better. Sometimes you see things in a quarterback that aren't quantifiable, but you believe he is greater than the sum of his measurable parts. I see some of that in Rudolph. Let's all give him the time to work through these things and then we will all see who he is when he comes out the other side.



Because we have so many QB gurus on here!

[Mojouw]

I've been one of, if not the loudest, critic of Rudolph posting here. What I saw during the game yesterday is consistent stretches of play-style and decision making that Rudolph had not displayed since college or maybe the preseason.

He completed passes to all levels of the field. He demonstrated improved ball placement. His decisions seemed to come quicker in the play and involve more options per play. Additionally, he finally seemed to throw balls with anticipation or at least a willingness to put it where only his guy had a chance. The TD pass to Washington may be the most aggressive throw Mason Rudolph has made to date.

The QB that played yesterday has a great deal to build on and can be successful. However, I felt I had not seen the aggressive mindset that Rudolph had against the Rams in any previous games. Remember this is a guy that it was being reported was checking things down in preseason practices. I do believe that at least for one game, Rudolph overcame his desire for being "perfect" with a desire to gamble a bit and make some plays.

[teegre]

Rudolph threw at Ramsey four times yesterday... and showed no fear in doing so.

Ramsey, btw, looks like he simply does not care about anything. This is not the same level of CB that he displayed last season. That said, I was impressed with Rudolph's confidence.

[Mojouw]

Rudolph threw at Ramsey four times yesterday... and showed no fear in doing so.

Ramsey, btw, looks like he simply does not care about anything. This is not the same level of CB that he displayed last season. That said, I was impressed with Rudolph's confidence.

Both true. I simultaneously hate and love Rudolph going right at some CBs. Part of me wants to celebrate it and part of me wants to scream that he needs to read jersey #'s and stay the heck away from guys like Howard and Ramsey.

[teegre]

Both true. I simultaneously hate and love Rudolph going right at some CBs. Part of me wants to celebrate it and part of me wants to scream that he needs to read jersey #'s and stay the heck away from guys like Howard and Ramsey.

I read something years ago... that Deion Sanders lived off of his reputation for a few seasons. Teams shied away from him... but, towards the end, once everyone realized that they "could" throw at him, he retired.

I'm not saying Deion is not one of the the best CBs to ever play (he is), but in Super Bowl XXX, Andre Hastings proved that sometimes shying away from a player is due to the mythos (as opposed to what one can actually do against them) is overrated.

[Shoes]

Rudolph threw at Ramsey four times yesterday... and showed no fear in doing so.

Ramsey, btw, looks like he simply does not care about anything. This is not the same level of CB that he displayed last season. That said, I was impressed with Rudolph's confidence.


JuJu said all Ramsey was doing yesterday was cussing. Words he never heard before. :lol:

[Shoes]

....and the cocksure critics onboard who are certain he’ll never have it are not willing to grant him that time. :der:

Agreed!

[86WARD]

JuJu said all Ramsey was doing yesterday was cussing. Words he never heard before. :lol:

Lol. Is there video of JuJu saying that?

[tube517]

Lol. Is there video of JuJu saying that?

1193704340541849600

[86WARD]

1193704340541849600

Thanks! He looked like he wanted to laugh.

[Blue Marvel]

Who gives a shit about this being Ben's offense. As soon as Ben went down, this became Mason's offense and our OC should be busting his ass to design plays that work for him and the receivers. How about some fucking rub routes? How about utilizing our TE's like other teams do? How about more play action when it's 3rd and 4 or less if they want to pass the ball. No they continue to trot out the 5WR sets with no one in the backfield telling the defense all it needs to know and allows them to pin their ears back and come after Mason. No, this mismanagement of our players and the calls on their field are solely on Fichtner. He is doing a shitty job and his offensive system is stale and lame as hell! Ben ran this offense for too long and our OC doesn't seem up to the task of taking over!

Amen

[Mojouw]

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/11/watch-mason-rudolph-still-working-on-his-reads/

I found this piece interesting and I know a bit more about football than I did a few minutes ago.

Largely complimentary of Rudolph, but does show how he still has some work/growth to do - specifically with moving through reads.

A question for others that know better than I -- I have to wonder if it is not only working through progressions, but footwork as well? In both the plays highlighted in the video, if I am understanding things properly, doing what Alex K is calling for would have required that Rudolph move his feet and reset his base to throw. Maybe that goes back to some of the mechanics stuff that others have pointed out? Perhaps Rudolph is not comfortable moving his eyes AND his feet at this point?

Anyways, I found it interesting so I thought I would post it here.

[HollywoodSteel]

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/11/watch-mason-rudolph-still-working-on-his-reads/

I found this piece interesting and I know a bit more about football than I did a few minutes ago.

Largely complimentary of Rudolph, but does show how he still has some work/growth to do - specifically with moving through reads.

A question for others that know better than I -- I have to wonder if it is not only working through progressions, but footwork as well? In both the plays highlighted in the video, if I am understanding things properly, doing what Alex K is calling for would have required that Rudolph move his feet and reset his base to throw. Maybe that goes back to some of the mechanics stuff that others have pointed out? Perhaps Rudolph is not comfortable moving his eyes AND his feet at this point?

Anyways, I found it interesting so I thought I would post it here.

Thanks for this.

I see what you’re saying. In the example where they showed the Saints, Bridgewater did an excellent job of quickly resetting his feet when he progressed from his first read to his second. Rudolph does seem to have problems resetting his feet. Part of that is obviously the pass rush closing in, but it’s also because he takes too long to abandon the first read and see the second one.

So it’s a double problem. He’s not good at resetting his feet quickly and he’s not good at diagnosing his reads quickly enough to compensate for his inability to reset his feet quickly.

I guess the third problem for him is that he doesn’t have the natural arm strength to compensate for not setting his feet. His mechanics are going to have to be darn near perfect in order to be a really good QB in this league. He’ll never be Ben who makes ridiculous throws from awkward positions.

But I’m confident he’ll get better at reading and reacting quickly as he gains experience. I assume he’s also practicing the mechanics of resetting his feet quickly. That’s definitely something that can be improved upon with practice.

[Blue Marvel]

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/11/watch-mason-rudolph-still-working-on-his-reads/

I found this piece interesting and I know a bit more about football than I did a few minutes ago.

Largely complimentary of Rudolph, but does show how he still has some work/growth to do - specifically with moving through reads.

A question for others that know better than I -- I have to wonder if it is not only working through progressions, but footwork as well? In both the plays highlighted in the video, if I am understanding things properly, doing what Alex K is calling for would have required that Rudolph move his feet and reset his base to throw. Maybe that goes back to some of the mechanics stuff that others have pointed out? Perhaps Rudolph is not comfortable moving his eyes AND his feet at this point?

Anyways, I found it interesting so I thought I would post it here.

Interesting....especially about footwork...i remember when Ben was injured some years ago , he went to work out with a private QB coach before rejoining the team...this was very telling to me because Fitchner was QB coach at the time...I think if ben wasn't so fond of him, he'd be coaching D III right now...to me he's no better than Adam Gase when he was Mannings OC in Denver

[NCSteeler]

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/11/watch-mason-rudolph-still-working-on-his-reads/

I found this piece interesting and I know a bit more about football than I did a few minutes ago.

Largely complimentary of Rudolph, but does show how he still has some work/growth to do - specifically with moving through reads.

A question for others that know better than I -- I have to wonder if it is not only working through progressions, but footwork as well? In both the plays highlighted in the video, if I am understanding things properly, doing what Alex K is calling for would have required that Rudolph move his feet and reset his base to throw. Maybe that goes back to some of the mechanics stuff that others have pointed out? Perhaps Rudolph is not comfortable moving his eyes AND his feet at this point?

Anyways, I found it interesting so I thought I would post it here.You know who teaches QBs how to control thier feet and get them set ? I heard there is this thing called a QB coach that the Rooney's can't afford

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[teegre]

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/11/watch-mason-rudolph-still-working-on-his-reads/

I found this piece interesting and I know a bit more about football than I did a few minutes ago.

Largely complimentary of Rudolph, but does show how he still has some work/growth to do - specifically with moving through reads.

A question for others that know better than I -- I have to wonder if it is not only working through progressions, but footwork as well? In both the plays highlighted in the video, if I am understanding things properly, doing what Alex K is calling for would have required that Rudolph move his feet and reset his base to throw. Maybe that goes back to some of the mechanics stuff that others have pointed out? Perhaps Rudolph is not comfortable moving his eyes AND his feet at this point?

Anyways, I found it interesting so I thought I would post it here.

100% I’ve been saying this for a while.


Rudolph not setting his feet nor stepping into his throws: our current QB

Rudolph setting his feet & stepping into his throws: the QB of our future

[DesertSteel]

After 108 posts, I'm still blaming Fichtner.