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View Full Version : Would You Trade Hargrave Before Tuesday's Deadline?



Mojouw
10-25-2019, 01:18 PM
Question is in the thread title. If you were GM, what would you do?

I would. I would aggressively shop Hargrave for a 2020 2nd or 3rd rounder. Assuming I had one last conversation with the player and agent that made me confident that there was no way Hargrave was resigning, I would trade him as soon as someone matched or beat the comp pick.

I would do this fully realizing that it would "tank" the front 3 for the rest of this season. Best case this team goes 9-7 and loses in the Wildcard Round. Maybe a minor miracle and the Division round.

I focus on 2020-21 with my HOF QB back at the controls and I recoup some draft assets by trading a player (who I love and would prefer that the team move heaven and earth to re-sign) that I believe is walking out the door in March anyways.

Of course, there is no way the Steelers do this.

st33lersguy
10-25-2019, 01:25 PM
Yeah, it may be good to move on if he isn't going to be resigned, try and get a pick back. I doubt it will happen though, and I hope they don't trade away their 2nd rounder for a "proven" player

tube517
10-25-2019, 01:35 PM
Only if he threw some furniture over the balcony and called Colbert a cracker.

steelreserve
10-25-2019, 01:38 PM
If you can re-sign him, that's a no-brainer. If you trade him, you're openly declaring that you're giving up on the season, and I doubt we will be willing to do that before the trade deadline (likely win against the Dolphins only bolsters that). Especially for a pick that's only a little better than what we get otherwise. You tank a season for the #1 overall pick, not for moving from round 3 to round 2, or getting your R3 pick a year early. When you also don't have your own #1 pick.

So what probably happens is we do nothing, go into the off-season scrambling to re-sign Hargrave, then fail to re-sign him.

If only there wasn't that stupid rule preventing teams from negotiating extensions during the season. I mean, if you had a player on an expiring contract, that would really come in handy to know for certain what your options were.

Oh wait, that's our own idiot policy that we do to ourselves for some reason. If there was ever a case where ending that approach would help us, this is it. As of right now, our choices are trade and tank, or uncertainty leaning negative.

Mojouw
10-25-2019, 01:46 PM
I should've put this in the thread title as well, but based on the cap and all this and that -- IF I get a 2020 4th round offer or higher, I ship Dupree out as well.

DesertSteel
10-25-2019, 02:12 PM
I'm keeping him and trying to re-sign, or as a consolation taking my comp pick.

AtlantaDan
10-25-2019, 04:25 PM
I should've put this in the thread title as well, but based on the cap and all this and that -- IF I get a 2020 4th round offer or higher, I ship Dupree out as well.

Might have to pay a licensing fee to the Dolphins for copyright infringement on how to tank if they traded Dupree and Hargrave :chuckle:

Getting additional picks for players leaving in free agency after you traded a first round pick that will be more valuable if you tank (but not more valuable to the Steelers) probably makes more sense than slogging to a 7-9 season and maximizes where you get to select in the rounds you have not traded, but the Steelers are not wired that way.

Of course they have not been wired to trade away first round picks since before man landed on the moon either

Squeegee Thompson
10-25-2019, 04:47 PM
I would've entertained it prior to Tuitt going down. With that loss, the depth on the D-line just took a massive hit, and Hargrave is more important than ever.

If the front office was really giving up on the season, then maybe move him. But at this point, I believe they think they're still a wildcard team with possible division hopes.

Mojouw
10-25-2019, 05:00 PM
Might have to pay a licensing fee to the Dolphins for copyright infringement on how to tank if they traded Dupree and Hargrave :chuckle:

Getting additional picks for players leaving in free agency after you traded a first round pick that will be more valuable if you tank (but not more valuable to the Steelers) probably makes more sense than slogging to a 7-9 season and maximizes where you get to select in the rounds you have not traded, but the Steelers are not wired that way.

Of course they have not been wired to trade away first round picks since before man landed on the moon either

Agreed. It would send a "bad" message and leave a sour taste in many fans' mouths...but this is business.

You are not a SB or even Championship round team with Rudolph at QB.

But if you are losing Hargrave and Dupree on defense in 2020 (the real strength of the current roster even with Ben R back) and needs at OLB, DT/DE, interior OL, WR, TE, and DB/S -- getting some 2-4th round picks into the system in 2020 instead of 2021 might prop the Ben R "window" open a bit better than waiting for comp picks.

steelreserve
10-25-2019, 05:11 PM
Wait! I've got it! Trade Hargrave and Dupree to the Dolphins and get our first-round pick back. Then we can tank away in a real race for the bottom - Monday night is the starting line!

Or wait - do we trade for the Dolphins' R1 pick, and we both have each others' picks in a reverse-reverse psychology game? That might create a paradox that would make the Earth explode though, so be careful.

edit: forgot they actually have this debacle on Monday night this week.

Mojouw
10-25-2019, 05:30 PM
I think I am just going to focus on enjoying this defense for the rest of the season. I don't think it will be as good next year needing to replace 2 big pieces.

Just was thinking about how good the sub packages could get if Sean Davis comes back and replaces Kelly as the 3rd safety. Like Davis isn't great, but he is leaps and bounds better than Kelly.

Fire Goodell
10-25-2019, 07:50 PM
Who's his backup? Big Dan McClure. Hard pass.

st33lersguy
10-25-2019, 08:00 PM
What's this team's ceiling, 8 or 9 wins? Steelers traded their round 1 and round 3 pick, and they are currently jeopardizing their round 3 comp pick by insisting on keeping Moncrief's useless hands. That leaves possibly 1 draft pick in the first 2 days. If they don't plan on keeping Hargrave, I would trade him for a day 2 pick. It will be better than letting him walk and then watching the comp they would have gotten get negated by them signing some "proven player" that turns out to a total useless stiff

pczach
10-25-2019, 08:27 PM
I am really looking forward to seeing what Hargrave can do if they play him at DE some snaps. I think he can be a beast there.

If he lights it up, how do you not at least try to re-sign him.

Also, does Hargrave playing great make Heyward or Tuitt expendable? I think that is something that the team may be thinking about, and the rest of the season answers that question.

Mojouw
10-25-2019, 09:11 PM
I am really looking forward to seeing what Hargrave can do if they play him at DE some snaps. I think he can be a beast there.

If he lights it up, how do you not at least try to re-sign him.

Also, does Hargrave playing great make Heyward or Tuitt expendable? I think that is something that the team may be thinking about, and the rest of the season answers that question.

If it’s anyone it’d be Heyward. He’s older and when he doesn’t rip muscles, Tuitt is unstoppable.

As to resigning Hargrave, they’d have to likely carve out 10-15 million in cap space.

It could be done. I just don’t see it.


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Edman
10-25-2019, 09:52 PM
Agreed. It would send a "bad" message and leave a sour taste in many fans' mouths...but this is business.

You are not a SB or even Championship round team with Rudolph at QB.

But if you are losing Hargrave and Dupree on defense in 2020 (the real strength of the current roster even with Ben R back) and needs at OLB, DT/DE, interior OL, WR, TE, and DB/S -- getting some 2-4th round picks into the system in 2020 instead of 2021 might prop the Ben R "window" open a bit better than waiting for comp picks.

Disagree. The days of being a Super Bowl Contender with Ben ended in 2017. Him coming back after an elbow injury, with glaring decline, age and no Antonio Brown is not going to open the "window" any wider. I believe the Steelers' very highest ceiling with Ben now is 10 wins, and some brief wildcard appearance, but nothing championship-worthy. I'd prefer the Steelers move forward into the unknown with new guys, than hang on to the old guard and hoping to rise above the level of above-average, when everything has clearly shown that the ceiling is no higher than that. The Purgatory of being in contention, but in constant decline. The Steelers chose the former after Ben's injury by trading away their first rounder for Fitzpatrick.

The team cannot tank for a higher pick in 2020 and wasting it on another 4-year defensive project to replace Dupree, who in particular was already a late first-round project, and who like him or not, is showing results this season. The team has clearly shown no intention of throwing away 2019 regardless of circumstances, and there is nothing on the on-field product that is showing otherwise. The OLB depth is pretty rough as is with Adenyi unproven and Chickillo's future in doubt.

No turning back now. The Steelers made their own bed, and have to lie in it for better or worse for 2019 and beyond.

Mojouw
10-25-2019, 09:59 PM
A reduced Roethlisberger is still better than Rudolph at this point.

6 months from now? Maybe Mason blossoms, but the gap is pretty darn big at this point.

Edman
10-25-2019, 10:08 PM
A reduced Roethlisberger is still better than Rudolph at this point.

6 months from now? Maybe Mason blossoms, but the gap is pretty darn big at this point.

A non-reduced Roethlisberger produced hardly anything better than what is going on right now. We just looked prettier on the stat sheet.

This isn't some great dynasty of legend we're replacing here. The Steelers haven't won a playoff game in two seasons, and have accomplished nothing of note in over a decade. It's the 1980's, but with better talent.

Ben's Super Bowl heroics in February 2009 are but a distant memory now.

steelreserve
10-25-2019, 10:14 PM
IMO it would be criminally irresponsible not to retain Hargrave, unless he simply doesn't want to. I am optimistic that we might be able to sneak him in there at $8-10M given his relative lack of playing time, maybe increasing beyond that if it's a long deal ... so far what he's shown to the league is a guy who can be pretty good in spots but doesn't play all that much.

At any rate, we have maybe a couple more years of Heyward, and call it 50-50 that Tuitt has a long and stable career after that injury. They have a way of recurring. We definitely need to replace one, and maybe two, star DEs; we cannot afford to let a third one go, not when he is also the guy who could be one of those replacements.

Mojouw
10-25-2019, 10:34 PM
IMO it would be criminally irresponsible not to retain Hargrave, unless he simply doesn't want to. I am optimistic that we might be able to sneak him in there at $8-10M given his relative lack of playing time, maybe increasing beyond that if it's a long deal ... so far what he's shown to the league is a guy who can be pretty good in spots but doesn't play all that much.

At any rate, we have maybe a couple more years of Heyward, and call it 50-50 that Tuitt has a long and stable career after that injury. They have a way of recurring. We definitely need to replace one, and maybe two, star DEs; we cannot afford to let a third one go, not when he is also the guy who could be one of those replacements.

For 8-10, absolutely. I think he gets 12-15 to go be a pass rushing 4-3 DT.

steelreserve
10-25-2019, 11:36 PM
For 8-10, absolutely. I think he gets 12-15 to go be a pass rushing 4-3 DT.

You could be right about that. My hope is other teams have not figured that out enough to jack up the demand sky-high.

The other thing is that we fucking HAVE to promise him a starting job or he's gone no matter what. No more of this 40-percent-of-the-snaps bullshit. He's not McCullers, there's no reason he needs to come off the field. It might require messing with our nickel alignment, but let's be serious - if it's a question of having Hargrave on the field in a nickel versus Dupree or Vince Williams, that's not a tough choice.

Hawkman
10-26-2019, 12:05 AM
No!....and I rarely say that

86WARD
10-26-2019, 07:16 AM
Nope. I’d try to use this time and the off-season to sign him to an extension. I’d actually be doing the opposite and looking for WR or RB talent. It’s crazy that the two strongest positions just a year or two ago are now the weakest...

pczach
10-26-2019, 07:29 AM
A non-reduced Roethlisberger produced hardly anything better than what is going on right now. We just looked prettier on the stat sheet.

This isn't some great dynasty of legend we're replacing here. The Steelers haven't won a playoff game in two seasons, and have accomplished nothing of note in over a decade. It's the 1980's, but with better talent.

Ben's Super Bowl heroics in February 2009 are but a distant memory now.



No, the offense was putting up close to 30 points a game....and Ben threw for 5100 yards last season. The defense also sucked ass. They no longer appear to suck, so things could be very different.

Stop making stuff up when you want it to fit your view of things. You are not even close to being true with your statements.

Remember when Drew Brees was putting up stupid numbers but they were winning 6 games every year because their defense couldn't stop anyone? Ben NEVER had even one year in his entire career like that, regardless of his shitty defenses since that February of 2009.

Remember when Peyton Manning won a super bowl when he could barely get out of his own way or throw the ball 40 yards? Sure you do. You just don't want to admit that Ben is faaaaaaar better right now than Peyton Manning was when he won that super bowl....and it's not close.

pczach
10-26-2019, 07:45 AM
If it’s anyone it’d be Heyward. He’s older and when he doesn’t rip muscles, Tuitt is unstoppable.

As to resigning Hargrave, they’d have to likely carve out 10-15 million in cap space.

It could be done. I just don’t see it.


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I agree. Tuitt has surpassed Heyward. He was flat out dominant this year until the injury....I mean scary good.

Heyward hasn't been playing at the level he has the last couple years, and he's getting older. He's a leader and a popular player. Tuitt is a ridiculous talent that is close to unstoppable when he's healthy. IMO, Tuitt is also a more versatile player with better athleticism to play DT in a 4-3 defense.

I believe Tuitt and Hargrave would be a wrecking crew as tandem DEs. I know we haven't seen Hargrave play much at DE, but he is a powerful, quick and disruptive player with natural pass rushing ability. He is also able to play in multiple schemes. In a 3-4 scheme, Hargrave can play NT and DE. In a 4-3, he is a DT that can rush the passer. He gives the team a versatile player that fits any defensive scheme they want to run. He is younger, and is a great pass rusher in a passing league. I feel like they must sign him.

If it were me, I'd be trying to lock Hargrave up long term. Heyward would be the odd man out. Tuitt and Hargrave can give the defense the ability to switch from 3-4 to 4-3 at will without having to take them off the field or losing any impact in either scheme.
This team has been trying to assemble a defense that is athletic and versatile. I think this would give them exactly what they have been looking for.

Steeldude
10-26-2019, 08:32 AM
No. Who would be left on the DL? An aging Heyward and an injury prone Tuitt(who is already out for the season). If I am going to trade anyone it would be Dupree.

DesertSteel
10-26-2019, 08:38 AM
I agree. Tuitt has surpassed Heyward. He was flat out dominant this year until the injury....I mean scary good.

Heyward hasn't been playing at the level he has the last couple years, and he's getting older. He's a leader and a popular player. Tuitt is a ridiculous talent that is close to unstoppable when he's healthy. IMO, Tuitt is also a more versatile player with better athleticism to play DT in a 4-3 defense.

I believe Tuitt and Hargrave would be a wrecking crew as tandem DEs. I know we haven't seen Hargrave play much at DE, but he is a powerful, quick and disruptive player with natural pass rushing ability. He is also able to play in multiple schemes. In a 3-4 scheme, Hargrave can play NT and DE. In a 4-3, he is a DT that can rush the passer. He gives the team a versatile player that fits any defensive scheme they want to run. He is younger, and is a great pass rusher in a passing league. I feel like they must sign him.

If it were me, I'd be trying to lock Hargrave up long term. Heyward would be the odd man out. Tuitt and Hargrave can give the defense the ability to switch from 3-4 to 4-3 at will without having to take them off the field or losing any impact in either scheme.
This team has been trying to assemble a defense that is athletic and versatile. I think this would give them exactly what they have been looking for.

That's pretty high praise for a guy who has grossly underperformed for years and has played really good for 5 games and got injured again. Tuitt = potential and flashes. On that same note - Kirk Cousins for MVP!

pczach
10-26-2019, 10:22 AM
That's pretty high praise for a guy who has grossly underperformed for years and has played really good for 5 games and got injured again. Tuitt = potential and flashes. On that same note - Kirk Cousins for MVP!



I understand what you're saying, but he has been playing great for about a year now.

I don't know how else to describe his play this year. He was playing at an elite level until the injury. His play has been very good as long as he's healthy. But he gets injured a lot. He plays through pain, but has issues staying completely healthy. His dominant play started in the second half of last season and continued this year until he got injured. He had 5.5 sacks and 14 quarterback hits in the last 9 games last year.

What would you do? Cut Tuitt and keep Hargrave? Keep Heyward and let Hargrave go?

I guess you're not a fan of Tuitt.

Here's an article that talks about the what if's of his early career, and the clear improvement in his game last year. The article is from August, so it didn't even take into account how well he was playing this year, which was at a Pro Bowl level.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2019/08/26/stephon-tuitt-steelers-defense-stats-cam-heyward-sacks/stories/201908260115

DesertSteel
10-26-2019, 10:31 AM
I’ve liked Tuitt since Notre Dame, as I’m an Irish fan. That said, he hasn’t played up to his contract and every time he shows his ability he gets injured. At this point, if he was in Hargrave’s situation, I’d let him hit FA. He’s too much of a risk to re-sign to big dollars. But, it’s Hargrave that’s in his last year. I’d let the next 10 games be his audition for a big offer.

pczach
10-26-2019, 11:15 AM
I’ve liked Tuitt since Notre Dame, as I’m an Irish fan. That said, he hasn’t played up to his contract and every time he shows his ability he gets injured. At this point, if he was in Hargrave’s situation, I’d let him hit FA. He’s too much of a risk to re-sign to big dollars. But, it’s Hargrave that’s in his last year. I’d let the next 10 games be his audition for a big offer.


Again, I hear what you're saying, but you asked how I can give him the kind of praise that I did.

In his last 14 games Tuitt had 9 sacks, 20 quarterback hits and 13 tackles for loss. He only played 5 snaps in the sixth game this year and he added an additional quarterback hit before he left the game. That's on pace for double digit sacks, and he has been drawing more attention from offensive linemen as he has been taking more double teams. TJ Watt moving to his side has helped Tuitt get more one-on-one's. It has also hurt Heyward a bit as Dupree doesn't draw double teams on his side as Watt did. Heyward went to Pro Bowls. Now Tuitt is playing at that level.

Here's another article talking about how well Tuitt has been playing. http://steelcurtainrising.com/2019/10/steelers-stephon-tuitt-ir-l-t-walton-resign-snap-count-roster.html/

...and another: https://stillcurtain.com/2019/10/17/will-fill-stephon-tuitts-shoes-steelers/

...and another: https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/9/23/20879843/through-a-dismal-start-to-the-2019-season-stephon-tuitt-has-been-a-bright-spot-for-the-steelers-nfl

DesertSteel
10-26-2019, 11:51 AM
Again, I hear what you're saying, but you asked how I can give him the kind of praise that I did.

In his last 14 games Tuitt had 9 sacks, 20 quarterback hits and 13 tackles for loss. He only played 5 snaps in the sixth game this year and he added an additional quarterback hit before he left the game. That's on pace for double digit sacks, and he has been drawing more attention from offensive linemen as he has been taking more double teams. TJ Watt moving to his side has helped Tuitt get more one-on-one's. It has also hurt Heyward a bit as Dupree doesn't draw double teams on his side as Watt did. Heyward went to Pro Bowls. Now Tuitt is playing at that level.

Here's another article talking about how well Tuitt has been playing. http://steelcurtainrising.com/2019/10/steelers-stephon-tuitt-ir-l-t-walton-resign-snap-count-roster.html/

...and another: https://stillcurtain.com/2019/10/17/will-fill-stephon-tuitts-shoes-steelers/

...and another: https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2019/9/23/20879843/through-a-dismal-start-to-the-2019-season-stephon-tuitt-has-been-a-bright-spot-for-the-steelers-nfl
You raise good points about his recent play. He has all the physical tools and has been dominant for a small stretch. I'm concerned that his injuries will never let us see what he could have been. I'm also of the belief that Cam is nowhere near done. I think he's going to play great these next 10 games.

What's your opinion on resigning Hargrave?

Six Rings
10-26-2019, 12:28 PM
I'd like to see what Buggs has to offer first.

Hargrave is a better than average pass rushing DT and average NT/DT vs the run. He's also on the field about 50% of the time.

He's tradable. I'd take a 3rd round pick for him right now. As a free agent, he might as for more money than he is worth, and might fetch say only a 5th to 6th round comp pick.

teegre
10-26-2019, 04:03 PM
No

Just like the early days of the Cowher era: win now... play the heck out of a stud player until he leaves for free agency... worry about next year next year.

The difference now being that if Hargrave leaves for $15 million/year, we’d pretty much be assured a R3 comp pick.

pczach
10-26-2019, 04:44 PM
You raise good points about his recent play. He has all the physical tools and has been dominant for a small stretch. I'm concerned that his injuries will never let us see what he could have been. I'm also of the belief that Cam is nowhere near done. I think he's going to play great these next 10 games.

What's your opinion on resigning Hargrave?



I'd love to see them re-sign him, but I realize it may not be possible from a financial standpoint. I stated in a previous post that I would go out of my way to sign him. I am a huge believer in Hargrave. He was my crush going into that year's draft, and when the Steelers drafted him...I was extremely excited. I think he could be a star in the NFL.

On Heyward, I think it is a combination of things. I don't think he's done either. I believe he is playing hurt. I know nothing is listed, but it just looks like he is being slowed by something. It also hurt him when Watt and Dupree switched sides. Watt used to be the guy that drew the attention away from Heyward. Now Watt is helping Tuitt on the other side.

You are correct about his injuries. No matter how well Tuitt plays, he isn't helping the team when he isn't playing. I believe that is the only thing that has really stopped him from being this good earlier. By the end of this season he will have missed 20 games due to injury. That is not only games. That is also missing practices and all the things that go into working on your craft.

Starting close to halfway through the season, he really started showing what he can do. Some of that I'm sure goes hand in hand with his health, but it's as if he was finally able to play at 100%.

One other thing. Tuitt has really flourished under Dunbar taking over as DL coach. It may be coincidence. It may just a combination of the factors I list above....but it's real.

So it's not like I am right and you are wrong. I am seeing it from the perspective of the type of player that he has become, particularly in the last year. You are rightfully looking at what could be considered him underperforming due mostly to injury. :drink:

Steeler-in-west
10-27-2019, 11:11 AM
Well we need a receiver to stretch the field, so maybe if we lose tomorrow to the dolphins and our season is really shot, it might be worth considering.

on second thought, defense has come together and hargrave is a key part. Would like to keep it together next season for one more run with Ben. Maybe we can get a top flight receiver in FA.....

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-28-2019, 11:37 AM
I would trade Fichtner for a conditional 8th round pick in 2020.

Either let Ben call the plays, or promote Ray Sherman to OC(yes, I remember) or call up Jay Gruden to see what he is doing. In the offseason gonna be a few guys available as OC, whether its Jason Garrett, Freddie Kitchens, Jay Gruden and more. IMO, all better than Fichtner.

AtlantaDan
10-28-2019, 11:51 AM
I would trade Fichtner for a conditional 8th round pick in 2020.

Either let Ben call the plays, or promote Ray Sherman to OC(yes, I remember) or call up Jay Gruden to see what he is doing. In the offseason gonna be a few guys available as OC, whether its Jason Garrett, Freddie Kitchens, Jay Gruden and more. IMO, all better than Fichtner.

Do not want to derail the thread but agree Fichtner is awful.

Of course unless there is bad news on Ben's recovery from elbow surgery IMO the Steelers do not want the hassle of another passive aggressive mourning process by Ben after one of his pals is canned as OC. Only key person on offense not getting a mulligan for this season is Rudolph if he does not step it up over the next 10 games.

I suppose if disaster struck tonight the Steelers might have some sort of "break glass in case of emergency" plans for tomorrow to dump marketable players leaving in free agency. But IMO only roster move that passes as significant will be dumping Moncrief in time to try and get a comp pick in 2020.

Born2Steel
10-28-2019, 12:16 PM
How many picks do the Texans have in 2020?

El-Gonzo Jackson
10-28-2019, 02:20 PM
I'd like to see what Buggs has to offer first.

.

I'm interested in seeing Buggs as well. He is more of a 3 technique than a NT and I think that is part of why McCullers was getting a hat instead of him on Sunday. Buggs had more QB pressures at Bama than Qunnen Williams, so it appears he can get upfield. I think he is a good rotational guy, but just want to see if he can handle himself at the point of attack in run defense.