Mike Tomlin Confirms Mason Rudolph Will Be Starting QB Once Cleared From Concussion

[Shoes]

Mike Tomlin put any brewing QB controversy to bed on Tuesday, confirming Mason Rudolph (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27859787/mike-tomlin-mason-rudolph-steelers-qb-healthy) will be the team’s starter once he exists concussion protocol.
“That guy is our quarterback when he clears the protocol,” Tomlin said via ESPN’s Brooke Pryor. “It’s as simple as that. Appreciate the efforts of Duck [Devlin Hodges (https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/3127051/devlin-hodges)], but as soon as he’s ready to go, he’s ready to go.”

https://steelersdepot.com/2019/10/mike-tomlin-confirms-mason-rudolph-will-be-starting-qb-once-cleared-from-concussion/

[tube517]

https://di2ponv0v5otw.cloudfront.net/posts/2018/04/22/5adcf5d4a6e3ea1c01dc79aa/m_5adcf5e5739d48652ab8be12.jpg :chuckle:

[DesertSteel]

100% the right call.

[steelreserve]

Sounds like the right move to me. It was fun to see Hodges (but mostly the OL, Conner, and the defense) pull a win out of a hat, but that is not what we want as our long-term strategy.

[Fire Goodell]

Mason's the better QB out of the two, it's a no brainer.

The offense did well on sustaining drives, but it was more to the credit of Conner and Snell.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

No brainer and Mason did nothing to lose his job.

[AtlantaDan]

I was glad Duck played well enough to show he may have a well paid career as a NFL backup QB

But IMO after Ben was hurt this season became and is still primarily about the Steelers deciding if they want to sink $$$ into a contract for Mason as Ben's successor.

If Ben comes back next year and makes it through the 2020 season the Steelers probably are going to need to make that decision on Mason before the start of the 2021 season, after which Mason's four year rookie deal expires, with only this season being where they get a good look at Mason's skill set. If the Steelers decide Mason is the guy they do not want him getting a shot a free agency.

[st33lersguy]

The right call.

[Squeegee Thompson]

Nothing like to a tune-up against a JV team for Mason to shake off some of the rust and get back in the saddle.

[ALLD]

How come there are no Chinese QBs in the NFL?

[DesertSteel]

How come there are no Chinese QBs in the NFL?
How come there are no white cornerbacks?

[Fire Goodell]

How come there are no Chinese QBs in the NFL?

Well there was Timmy Chang who played in the NFL Europe :chuckle:

[Edman]

Mason is far from the issue with this team.

Hodges did okay, but that’s all we needed from him for now. Let the rook sit. At least he proved that he can be a viable backup for the Steelers.

Rudy and Hodges are not the reason the Steelers are 2-4, but they are the reason they aren’t 0-6. I would never be this comfortable or confident with Dobbs or Landry. We have to be grateful that our Quarterback situation isn’t as bad as we feared without Ben.

[Craic]

I was just as impressed by Hodges as I was with Mason.

The right call here was a call that put to bed any QB controversy. IMO, he could have chosen either one and we'd be in the same position. But, Mason was a 3rd round pick, so we go with him. Honestly, that's seemingly the only reason to do so. Might as well get mileage out of him if you chose him to be your backup, and then see what he can do.

[Moose]

I was just as impressed by Hodges as I was with Mason.

Gotta agree Craic ! I was glad to see the team kept both of these youngsters. I wasn't impressed with Ben at the beginning of the season and for some reason I feel his time with the team is getting limited fast, especially since his mention of retiring, I now feel comfortable if he decides to get out while healthy, we'd be fine at the QB position.

[HollywoodSteel]

I was just as impressed by Hodges as I was with Mason.

The right call here was a call that put to bed any QB controversy. IMO, he could have chosen either one and we'd be in the same position. But, Mason was a 3rd round pick, so we go with him. Honestly, that's seemingly the only reason to do so. Might as well get mileage out of him if you chose him to be your backup, and then see what he can do.

I don’t think it’s so much that Rudolph WAS third round pick, but WHY he was a third round pick. Obviously the experts see his potential being much higher than Duck’s, even if they yielded similar results after limited game play.

You have to go with the guy who is more likely to yield better results in the long run. There’s no guarantee that it’s Rudolph but he’s the odds on favorite.

[Craic]

I don’t think it’s so much that Rudolph WAS third round pick, but WHY he was a third round pick. Obviously the experts see his potential being much higher than Duck’s, even if they yielded similar results after limited game play.

You have to go with the guy who is more likely to yield better results in the long run. There’s no guarantee that it’s Rudolph but he’s the odds on favorite.
I'm just not convinced he has that big of an upside. Of course, my vote means everything to the team. :chuckle: We'll see. Good thing about sticking with Rudolph, however. We'll know by the end of the season if we have a QB that is worth keeping around.

But, I just can't get that fear of my chest that we're slipping back into the Cowher mentality of QBs and football. No thank you.

[Edman]

But, I just can't get that fear of my chest that we're slipping back into the Cowher mentality of QBs and football. No thank you.

The Cowher Mentality of QB's was that anyone could play QB for the Steelers and they'll be good to go. Cowher never cared about the intricacies of the position. You honestly can't blame him. It was a product of the era. Back then, the bellcow back and the running game was the key to winning. Outside of a select few special players, Quarterback play was nowhere near the level or garnered the same respect it gets today. Colleges, Coaches and organizations pay much more attention to developing a quarterback. If a Quarterback fails in the NFL, something has to have seriously gone wrong. The guy has to be truly awful, or the organization is a shitshow.

Even then, a Quarterback cannot save organizational ineptitude. Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota are on the verge of busting. They were the top QB picks in the 2015 draft. Mariota in particular was butchered to death with four different offensive coordinators over five seasons. And how can you forget our old friend Andrew Luck, the sure-fire QB prospect who was as good as advertised, but didn't make a difference and recently retired at 29 because the Colts left him to die? If the Steelers do the responsible thing and develop Rudolph/Hodges properly, They should be fine.

This is why I believe the Steelers will not fall into another post-Bradshaw funk. There are far too many talented Quarterbacks to do that again.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I don’t think it’s so much that Rudolph WAS third round pick, but WHY he was a third round pick. Obviously the experts see his potential being much higher than Duck’s, even if they yielded similar results after limited game play.

.

The concerns that he was just a "system QB" in that OSU kind of air raid type offense is what resulted in all his passing numbers. In short, some thought he was a Will Grier clone.

[86WARD]

The Cowher Mentality of QB's was that anyone could play QB for the Steelers and they'll be good to go. Cowher never cared about the intricacies of the position. You honestly can't blame him. It was a product of the era. Back then, the bellcow back and the running game was the key to winning. Outside of a select few special players, Quarterback play was nowhere near the level or garnered the same respect it gets today. Colleges, Coaches and organizations pay much more attention to developing a quarterback. If a Quarterback fails in the NFL, something has to have seriously gone wrong. The guy has to be truly awful, or the organization is a shitshow.

Even then, a Quarterback cannot save organizational ineptitude. Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota are on the verge of busting. They were the top QB picks in the 2015 draft. Mariota in particular was butchered to death with four different offensive coordinators over five seasons. And how can you forget our old friend Andrew Luck, the sure-fire QB prospect was that good, but recently retired at 29 because the Colts left him to die? If the Steelers do the responsible thing and develop Rudolph/Hodges properly. They should be fine.

This is why I believe the Steelers will not fall into another post-Bradshaw funk. There are far too many talented Quarterbacks to do that again.

Agree 100%

[Craic]

The Cowher Mentality of QB's was that anyone could play QB for the Steelers and they'll be good to go. Cowher never cared about the intricacies of the position. You honestly can't blame him. It was a product of the era. Back then, the bellcow back and the running game was the key to winning. Outside of a select few special players, Quarterback play was nowhere near the level or garnered the same respect it gets today. Colleges, Coaches and organizations pay much more attention to developing a quarterback. If a Quarterback fails in the NFL, something has to have seriously gone wrong. The guy has to be truly awful, or the organization is a shitshow.

Even then, a Quarterback cannot save organizational ineptitude. Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota are on the verge of busting. They were the top QB picks in the 2015 draft. Mariota in particular was butchered to death with four different offensive coordinators over five seasons. And how can you forget our old friend Andrew Luck, the sure-fire QB prospect who was as good as advertised, but didn't make a difference and recently retired at 29 because the Colts left him to die? If the Steelers do the responsible thing and develop Rudolph/Hodges properly, They should be fine.

This is why I believe the Steelers will not fall into another post-Bradshaw funk. There are far too many talented Quarterbacks to do that again.
Disagree completely. I think you're confusing the 1990s for the 1970s. The game had already loosened up considerably concerning the pass. West coast offenses had already changed the way offense and QBs were viewed. Superbowls were not won very often with RBs in the 90s. Only two out of ten were controlled by the run game, another SB was helped considerably, but not won (Dallas's), and a fourth had two 100 yard rushers that equaled each other out. Every one of those teams ALSO had very good to great QBs including Aikman, Favre, Kelly, Elway. During that time there also QBs like Montana, Warner, Young, Moon, and so on who were taking over games with their arm (Montana was actually in the twilight of his career already, but it just serves to show how long it had been since the run game was the featured element of the NFL).

It was Cowher's biggest blindspot and if it weren't for Mr. Rooney stepping in and demanding we pick Ben (a QB, that is), we would not have had two more SBs and a third appearance.

[86WARD]

Disagree completely. I think you're confusing the 1990s for the 1970s. The game had already loosened up considerably concerning the pass. West coast offenses had already changed the way offense and QBs were viewed. Superbowls were not won very often with RBs in the 90s. Only two out of ten were controlled by the run game, another SB was helped considerably, but not won (Dallas's), and a fourth had two 100 yard rushers that equaled each other out. Every one of those teams ALSO had very good to great QBs including Aikman, Favre, Kelly, Elway. During that time there also QBs like Montana, Warner, Young, Moon, and so on who were taking over games with their arm (Montana was actually in the twilight of his career already, but it just serves to show how long it had been since the run game was the featured element of the NFL).

It was Cowher's biggest blindspot and if it weren't for Mr. Rooney stepping in and demanding we pick Ben (a QB, that is), we would not have had two more SBs and a third appearance.

The QBs weren’t as babied, developed and polished during the 90s as they are today. The overall development of the QB-Position today far supersedes what it was during most of Cowher’s tenure. You could very easily create a list of QBs just in today’s games that aren’t nearly as talented as the list you just posted and most of these guys (Stafford, Cousins, Jackson, Rodgers, Brissett, Tannehill) have done it on multiple occasions. I think Edman is saying that and that in the 90s, the run had more of a presence and emphasis then it does today. Today the pass is emphasized much more. Maybe?

[Born2Steel]

While I do agree Rudolph is the better QB of the 2, at what point do you go with the hot hand? Example: Kyle Allen and Teddy Bridgewater. In the case for the Panthers I would stay with Kyle Allen even when Cam returns. However, once Brees gets healthy I give him his job back. Now, both teams are undefeated with backups so why the difference in philosophy? The Steelers have 2 victories this season. Were they a better team against the Bengals with Rudolph? Or were they better against the Chargers with Duck? My opinion is Rudolph is the better QB...but, are we a better TEAM with Hodges? I can’t decide at this point but I think the question is there. Thoughts?

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

While I do agree Rudolph is the better QB of the 2, at what point do you go with the hot hand? Example: Kyle Allen and Teddy Bridgewater. In the case for the Panthers I would stay with Kyle Allen even when Cam returns. However, once Brees gets healthy I give him his job back. Now, both teams are undefeated with backups so why the difference in philosophy? The Steelers have 2 victories this season. Were they a better team against the Bengals with Rudolph? Or were they better against the Chargers with Duck? My opinion is Rudolph is the better QB...but, are we a better TEAM with Hodges? I can’t decide at this point but I think the question is there. Thoughts? The team played harder and with more fire for Hodges. I think that was do to them thinking they had to since he was the 3rd string QB. Not sure they would do that every week if he was the starter.

[Edman]

Disagree completely. I think you're confusing the 1990s for the 1970s. The game had already loosened up considerably concerning the pass. West coast offenses had already changed the way offense and QBs were viewed. Superbowls were not won very often with RBs in the 90s. Only two out of ten were controlled by the run game, another SB was helped considerably, but not won (Dallas's), and a fourth had two 100 yard rushers that equaled each other out. Every one of those teams ALSO had very good to great QBs including Aikman, Favre, Kelly, Elway. During that time there also QBs like Montana, Warner, Young, Moon, and so on who were taking over games with their arm (Montana was actually in the twilight of his career already, but it just serves to show how long it had been since the run game was the featured element of the NFL).

It was Cowher's biggest blindspot and if it weren't for Mr. Rooney stepping in and demanding we pick Ben (a QB, that is), we would not have had two more SBs and a third appearance.

The NFL had the most unbalanced Quarterback talent in the league in Cowher's day. A good quarterback was rare. A great quarterback was generational. And even then, Troy Aikman, one of the "elites" was the epitome of a "Game Manager". You know, the dirty word placed upon a quarterback who dares to help the team win. He never threw for more than 30 touchdowns, and threw for 20+ Once. You couldn't get away with that today. Today, a Troy Aikman would be considered Alex Smith. Dan Marino is middle of the pack. Even our own Terry Bradshaw, had very average career stats that would be considered completely forgettable today.

You have a group of guys at the top who are unquestionably the best to ever play the game, but after them there is a considerable drop off. There was no "middle class" or "second tier" of quarterbacks in the 90's. You had the good quarterbacks, then you had the straight bad and forgettable everywhere else. If your quarterback sucked, Too bad. You can't go in the draft either, because College didn't develop QB talent well either. Unfortunately, the Steelers happened to be stuck with the subpar.

Today, there is quarterback talent bursting through the seams so much where even the "mid-tier" guys are throwing for 3000+. We're at the point now where you can find a "franchise" guy off the street, because the game was changed and evolved to protect the quarterback and give him everything he needs to succeed.

Coaches and Draft pundits pick and analyze quarterbacks to death. Study throwing mechanics, decision making, foepaws and tendencies. The QB position is meticulously picked apart. Compared to the 90's, where the bare minimum to be a starting quarterback in the NFL is "Can he throw a football past 15 yards?". He can? Then he checks out.

If the Steelers go on another post-Bradshaw string of very bad quarterbacks, then that is the fault of the organization, not the players.

[GoSlash27]

While I do agree Rudolph is the better QB of the 2, at what point do you go with the hot hand? Example: Kyle Allen and Teddy Bridgewater. In the case for the Panthers I would stay with Kyle Allen even when Cam returns. However, once Brees gets healthy I give him his job back. Now, both teams are undefeated with backups so why the difference in philosophy? The Steelers have 2 victories this season. Were they a better team against the Bengals with Rudolph? Or were they better against the Chargers with Duck? My opinion is Rudolph is the better QB...but, are we a better TEAM with Hodges? I can’t decide at this point but I think the question is there. Thoughts?

Duck wasn't actually the hot hand, though. The gameplan was extremely limited to minimize his exposure. Rudolph is the starter and Duck is the backup until/ unless Rudolph proves he isn't up to the task.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Duck wasn't actually the hot hand, though. The gameplan was extremely limited to minimize his exposure. Rudolph is the starter and Duck is the backup until/ unless Rudolph proves he isn't up to the task.

:applaudit: Exactly. his "hot hand" was the one he used to hand off the football to James Conner mostly. The short swing pass to Conner and the late throw into a crowd for INT are the throws that stand out in my memory among a bunch of short throws.

I would say that Devin Bush, the defense and James Conner had the hot hands in the Charger game. Still, the most popular guy to fans is the undrafted underdog, even if he isn't the intelligent choice to start at QB this week.

[fansince'76]

You have a group of guys at the top who are unquestionably the best to ever play the game, but after them there is a considerable drop off. There was no "middle class" or "second tier" of quarterbacks in the 90's.

Drew Bledsoe, Randall Cunningham, Mark Brunell and Steve McNair all say hi.

I think the reason there was no "official" second tier of QBs in the '90s that is widely acknowledged today is because that was before the sport was ruined with all this fantasy football BS.

Fact remains Cowher undervalued the QB position and it cost the team several trips to the SB.

[lipps83]

Coaches and Draft pundits pick and analyze quarterbacks to death. Study throwing mechanics, decision making, foepaws and tendencies. The QB position is meticulously picked apart. Compared to the 90's, where the bare minimum to be a starting quarterback in the NFL is "Can he throw a football past 15 yards?". He can? Then he checks out.

Confirmed by almost 20 years of NFL Quarterback Challenge.

Side note: 1996 Winner was Neil O'Donnell

[Edman]

Drew Bledsoe, Randall Cunningham, Mark Brunell and Steve McNair all say hi.

I think the reason there was no "official" second tier of QBs in the '90s that is widely acknowledged today is because that was before the sport was ruined with all this fantasy football BS.

All borderline journeymen at best. Bledsoe was so valuable to the Patriots they promptly dumped him for Tom Brady, who by the way was no hot shakes his first year starting despite the Super Bowl win.

McNair didn't take off until 2003, Mark Brunell promptly dropped of the face of the Earth after 1999.


Fact remains Cowher undervalued the QB position and it cost the team several trips to the SB.

No one is arguing this. Cowher Willingly let O'Donnell go and thought Mike Tomczak was the answer going into the 1996 Season. Nothing more needs to be said.

[86WARD]

:applaudit: Exactly. his "hot hand" was the one he used to hand off the football to James Conner mostly. The short swing pass to Conner and the late throw into a crowd for INT are the throws that stand out in my memory among a bunch of short throws.

I would say that Devin Bush, the defense and James Conner had the hot hands in the Charger game. Still, the most popular guy to fans is the undrafted underdog, even if he isn't the intelligent choice to start at QB this week.

BTW - speaking of the Steelers “run game”...Lamar Jackson - more rushing yards as an individual than Steelers have as a team.

Carry on...

[fansince'76]

BTW - speaking of the Steelers “run game”...Lamar Jackson - more rushing yards as an individual than Steelers have as a team.

Carry on...

The shelf life for QBs who run that much is typically pretty short...

[AtlantaDan]

BTW - speaking of the Steelers “run game”...Lamar Jackson - more rushing yards as an individual than Steelers have as a team.

Carry on...

Nine pass completions for 143 yards and fourteen rushes for 116 yards by a QB is an interesting stat line but how long can that go on?

There is a reason most running backs have difficulty getting long term contracts after their rookie deals - durability

Jackson is entertaining as hell to watch but he appears to know how sustainable being a running QB is - this quote from a few weeks ago

“I hate running,” Jackson said before a practice last month. “Only if I have to. But my job is to get the ball to the receivers, tight ends, running backs. If I have to run, I’ll do it. But I’d rather just sit back and pass it. I like throwing touchdowns instead of running them.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/10/sports/football/lamar-jackson-ravens.html

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

The shelf life for QBs who run that much is typically pretty short...

True, I am surprised that nobody has taken a good shot at Jackson yet. He was trying to break some tackles yesterday and I thought the 2nd guy in was gonna wrap up and tackle hard, but kind of went soft on him.

[AtlantaDan]

True, I am surprised that nobody has taken a good shot at Jackson yet. He was trying to break some tackles yesterday and I thought the 2nd guy in was gonna wrap up and tackle hard, but kind of went soft on him.

On their weekly pick the lines podcast, Bill Simmons & Cousin Sal both agreed Jackson is a must watch QB - but with regard to a QB taking on tacklers Cousin Sal had a good line - "it is like watching someone play without a helmet" :chuckle:

[NCSteeler]

True, I am surprised that nobody has taken a good shot at Jackson yet. He was trying to break some tackles yesterday and I thought the 2nd guy in was gonna wrap up and tackle hard, but kind of went soft on him.If the QB is running your defense in the ground that's exactly the cure most of the time. #1 wraps up #2 makes the big hit.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[Craic]

No one is arguing this. Cowher Willingly let O'Donnell go and thought Mike Tomczak was the answer going into the 1996 Season. Nothing more needs to be said.

That is exactly what you are arguing. He undervalued the position. If you state, "he can't be blamed because no one else valued it that way either," then he didn't undervalue the position. He was in the norm of for valuation.

[Edman]

That is exactly what you are arguing. He undervalued the position. If you state, "he can't be blamed because no one else valued it that way either," then he didn't undervalue the position. He was in the norm of for valuation.

He undervalued the position because that was the norm. He can be blamed for not valuing the position. He can’t be blamed for the thought process behind it. Joe Gibbs’ Redskins took home three titles without a “franchise guy”. The Cowboys Dynasty had the ultimate Game Manager at QB. The 85 Bears won with the less impressive Jim McMahon.

That was the norm back then. The QB was viewed as nothing more than a luxury position. It was nice to have a good QB, but it not viewed as a necessity. Yes, that cost the Cowher Steelers big time.

[Fire Goodell]

Hey they did go 10-6 with Mike Tomczak :chuckle:

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Hey they did go 10-6 with Mike Tomczak :chuckle: Amazing since Mike had tiny Trump hands.

[Craic]

He undervalued the position because that was the norm. He can be blamed for not valuing the position. He can’t be blamed for the thought process behind it. Joe Gibbs’ Redskins took home three titles without a “franchise guy”. The Cowboys Dynasty had the ultimate Game Manager at QB. The 85 Bears won with the less impressive Jim McMahon.

That was the norm back then. The QB was viewed as nothing more than a luxury position. It was nice to have a good QB, but it not viewed as a necessity. Yes, that cost the Cowher Steelers big time.

If it was "the norm" then it by definition can not be undervalued because it is the coaches who set the value through play calling and offensive strategy. And, you're now moving the goal posts. No one talked about a "franchise guy." We talking about the importance placed on QBs. And, while I'd disagree with you that Aikman was a game manager, even you admit he is the "ultimate" game manager which moves him up into the top 30 percent or so of QBs. As for McMahon, you're in the wrong decade. Cowher took over in 92. So, you're list really doesn't make your argument. (Washington's QBs all hit hot streaks. Gibbs stayed with them because he knew it was important to have a good QB playing).

And I don't know anyone that thought having a good QB was a luxury position. And, I think the draft backs that up as over half the teams spent first round picks on QBs and three teams spent 2 first round picks (different years) on QBs. And of those other teams? They had QBs like Aikman, Cunningham, Boomer E. Kim Kelly. That means only a few teams either already have quality (not necessarily franchise, but quality) QBs heading into that decade. Free agency also hit in full and we saw a few of the good QBs get passed around when they hit free agency.

So no, it was already known that you needed a good QB.

[teegre]

Cowher’s philosophy was that instead of spending a ridiculous amount in your QB, you use that same money on three defenders. It almost worked.

In the salary cap era, teams were losing players left & right. The Steelers has a very solid core of defenders. If they had spent a ton of money on a franchise QB, they would have lost three defenders. Imagine the ‘95 squad without Kirkland, Steed, and Lake. :scared: Again, it almost worked.

Unfortunately, his QBs killed him in big games. In the playoffs, Kordell was full Kordell. And, we all remember Super Bowl XXX. If his QBs has simply “not turned the ball over”, Cowher wins at least one Lombardi in his first six seasons. Alas...

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Cowher’s philosophy was that instead of spending a ridiculous amount in your QB, you use that same money on three defenders. It almost worked.

In the salary cap era, teams were losing players left & right. The Steelers has a very solid core of defenders. ...

I cant believe that fans somehow blame Cowher for not investing big money on Neil O'Donnell?

The guy signed a 5 year $25 million contract with the Jets and was released 2 years into that contract because Vinny Testaverde was better. Fans act like Cowher didn't want a franchise QB, when the reality is that they just aren't on the street corner waiting to be signed to a contract. SMH

[Mojouw]

I will comment here, since there are now two threads that have generated a Cowher/Odonnell/Stewart retrospective.

Cowher's "franchise QB" problem and part of the problem for every franchise that didn't have one in that era, was that everyone wanted to play QB one way. An OC would install their system and the QB was expected to master it and little to any attempts were made to adapt the system to the QB being asked to run it.

What we see right now in the NFL and all over the college level, is offensive systems being designed around what specific QBs can and can't do.

Imagine if Stewart had had a system built specifically for him and that didn't ask him to do things he couldn't do? He would've been Lamar Jackson only in the 1990's. It would've been an ugly and herky-jerky offense, but it would've maximized his good points and done a better job of hiding his flaws.

[AtlantaDan]

Bouchette contends that after being the starter for over a month time to let Mason run the full offense rather than a the dumbed down avoid risks version (article paywalled)

1186673991752339456

[HollywoodSteel]

If it was "the norm" then it by definition can not be undervalued because it is the coaches who set the value through play calling and offensive strategy. And, you're now moving the goal posts. No one talked about a "franchise guy." We talking about the importance placed on QBs. And, while I'd disagree with you that Aikman was a game manager, even you admit he is the "ultimate" game manager which moves him up into the top 30 percent or so of QBs. As for McMahon, you're in the wrong decade. Cowher took over in 92. So, you're list really doesn't make your argument. (Washington's QBs all hit hot streaks. Gibbs stayed with them because he knew it was important to have a good QB playing).

And I don't know anyone that thought having a good QB was a luxury position. And, I think the draft backs that up as over half the teams spent first round picks on QBs and three teams spent 2 first round picks (different years) on QBs. And of those other teams? They had QBs like Aikman, Cunningham, Boomer E. Kim Kelly. That means only a few teams either already have quality (not necessarily franchise, but quality) QBs heading into that decade. Free agency also hit in full and we saw a few of the good QBs get passed around when they hit free agency.

So no, it was already known that you needed a good QB.

Okay, but at least part of your argument is just semantics.

If I say that human life was undervalued during WW1, I’m not wrong by definition, even if EVERYONE at the time undervalued human life. I obviously mean compared to today, or even compared to my own value system. Those are still grammatically correct uses of the term “undervalued.” As long as the context is clear, you understand what is meant by my use of the term.

I’m not going to argue your bigger point, that not every team DID “undervalue” the position.

But we can have these arguments and never reach a true consensus on Cowher. He was a good coach, but obviously not perfect. And he got very lucky that he was “persuaded” to draft Big Ben. That move is really what ended up cementing Cowher’s legacy as a “great” coach.

[Fire Goodell]

Yep take the training wheels off and get James Washington involved

[HollywoodSteel]

Bouchette contends that after being the starter for over a month time to let Mason run the full offense rather than a the dumbed down avoid risks version (article paywalled)

1186673991752339456

It’s hard to argue with him. If we claw out a few wins with conservative ball, does that really mean we have a shot at a playoff run? If not, what’s the point?

The only way we have a shot at real success this season is if Rudolph turns out to be a legit passing QB who can win a playoff game. And the only way to find that out is to let him try. If he tries and fails then we know that we never really had chance this year. I don’t care about having an 8-8 record over a 6-10 record, if getting those extra wins means never taking the cuffs off Rudolph. I want to know if Mason is the guy one way or the other.

I want to know if we have a shot in the playoffs, not just scratch and claw and wildcat our way there.

[AtlantaDan]

I want to know if we have a shot in the playoffs, not just scratch and claw and wildcat our way there.

I agree with wanting to see a real offense implemented, although my goal is more focused on the long term.

I want to know if Rudolph is a QB the Steelers think can help lead the team to a Lombardi after Ben retires, not whether the 2019 Steelers can beat sad sacks like the Bengals by running a just don’t lose the game offense.

If Mason cannot run a full playbook NFL offense better to find out now rather than hope he can learn after committing to him for the long term.

If it turns out to be so great - if not then the Steelers know to go in another direction after Ben. This franchise does not measure success by just making the playoffs and that unfortunately became the ceiling in week two. The goal is to assemble the roster to hopefully achieve for the seventh time the standard against which Steelers teams are measured.

[Mojouw]

It’s hard to argue with him. If we claw out a few wins with conservative ball, does that really mean we have a shot at a playoff run? If not, what’s the point?

The only way we have a shot at real success this season is if Rudolph turns out to be a legit passing QB who can win a playoff game. And the only way to find that out is to let him try. If he tries and fails then we know that we never really had chance this year. I don’t care about having an 8-8 record over a 6-10 record, if getting those extra wins means never taking the cuffs off Rudolph. I want to know if Mason is the guy one way or the other.

I want to know if we have a shot in the playoffs, not just scratch and claw and wildcat our way there.


I agree with wanting to see a real offense implemented, although my goal is more focused on the long term.

I want to know if Rudolph is a QB the Steelers think can help lead the team to a Lombardi after Ben retires, not whether the 2019 Steelers can beat sad sacks like the Bengals by running a just don’t lose the game offense.

If Mason cannot run a full playbook NFL offense better to find out now rather than hope he can learn after committing to him for the long term.

If it turns out to be so great - if not then the Steelers know to go in another direction after Ben. This franchise does not measure success by just making the playoffs and that unfortunately became the ceiling in week two. The goal is to assemble the roster to hopefully achieve for the seventh time the standard against which Steelers teams are measured.

i agree with you both. I don't need to see Rudolph do it this week or next, but there has to be progress each week. Much like Ben R's rookie year. Regardless of record and results, this needs to be a stern enough test that the team can determine whether or not Rudolph can run a legitimate offense or not.

[Edman]

In San Francisco you could argue that the training wheels were placed on Rudolph. I don’t know about now. Sooner or later the QB has to step up and start making the path for himself.

Somewhere along the way we have to learn that Mason Rudolph is risk-adverse and not a gunslinger. He is not fly-by-your-pants like Big Ben. He is very patient and is satisfied taking what the Defense gives him and picking them apart down the field. If the deep shot is there, he’ll take it. He’s done it. Quite a few times.

The only people I see that may have a problem with Mason’s game are Fantasy football buffs.

[Fire Goodell]

In San Francisco you could argue that the training wheels were placed on Rudolph. I don’t know about now. Sooner or later the QB has to step up and start making the path for himself.

Somewhere along the way we have to learn that Mason Rudolph is risk-adverse and not a gunslinger. He is not fly-by-your-pants like Big Ben. He is very patient and is satisfied taking what the Defense gives him and picking them apart down the field. If the deep shot is there, he’ll take it. He’s done it. Quite a few times.

The only people I see that may have a problem with Mason’s game are Fantasy football buffs.

True, honestly I think he's done quite well, and have no problem with his way of playing. He did show on numerous occasions that he's not afraid to go deep if the opportunity is there, but he won't force it. Fine by me, he's only thrown one INT that was his fault, but about 2 TD's a game.

If anything I want to see the OL step up and start opening running lanes. If we can run the football I'm confident that the passing game will follow.

[AtlantaDan]

In San Francisco you could argue that the training wheels were placed on Rudolph. I don’t know about now. Sooner or later the QB has to step up and start making the path for himself.

Somewhere along the way we have to learn that Mason Rudolph is risk-adverse and not a gunslinger. He is not fly-by-your-pants like Big Ben. He is very patient and is satisfied taking what the Defense gives him and picking them apart down the field. If the deep shot is there, he’ll take it. He’s done it. Quite a few times.

The only people I see that may have a problem with Mason’s game are Fantasy football buffs.

We do not yet know what Mason’s NFL game is, unless the long term offense for him includes passes from Samuels out of the wildcat inside their own 20 and the wildcat on second and 1 inside the opponent’s 10.

Mason is smart enough to spout the company line that it’s all good but the Bouchette article has quotes from AV (who has the gift of being both articulate & candid) and Foster that it is time to run the full offense, particularly the no huddle.

[Edman]

We do not yet know what Mason’s NFL game is, unless the long term offense for him includes passes from Samuels out of the wildcat inside their own 20 and the wildcat on second and 1 inside the opponent’s 10.

Mason is smart enough to spout the company line that it’s all good but the Bouchette article has quotes from AV (who has the gift of being both articulate & candid) and Foster that it is time to run the full offense, particularly the no huddle.

What does the No-Huddle and Wildcat have to do with Mason's style and decision making?

More No-Huddle isn't going to magically turn Mason into Ben. He'll just start throwing more short passes only at a much higher rate and frequency. AV and Foster need to worry more about not getting pushed around up front by Defensive Linemen than worrying about what Offense the team should be running. If it were Ben talking, sure, but Foster and AV have accomplished nothing of note. They are ringless. Don't forget that the Offense previously whined about the Defense getting too physical with them during practice before the Chargers game.

This is why the Steelers are 3-5 in the playoffs this decade and haven't won a playoff game in two years. They are too wrapped up in their own image and press clippings that they became soft.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

What does the No-Huddle and Wildcat have to do with Mason's style and decision making?

More No-Huddle isn't going to magically turn Mason into Ben. He'll just start throwing more short passes only at a much higher rate and frequency. AV and Foster need to worry more about not getting pushed around up front by Defensive Linemen than worrying about what Offense the team should be running. If it were Ben talking, sure, but Foster and AV have accomplished nothing of note. They are ringless. Don't forget that the Offense previously whined about the Defense getting too physical with them during practice before the Chargers game.

This is why the Steelers are 3-5 in the playoffs this decade and haven't won a playoff game in two years. They are too wrapped up in their own image and press clippings that they became soft.

I agree. Not sure that I have ever seen a case in the NFL where the OC decides the best thing for his inexperienced QB to start doing is running no huddle in the middle of games.

[AtlantaDan]

What does the No-Huddle and Wildcat have to do with Mason's style and decision making?


I agree. Not sure that I have ever seen a case in the NFL where the OC decides the best thing for his inexperienced QB to start doing is running no huddle in the middle of games.

My point was we do not yet know whether Rudolph might be a likely successor to Ben because for whatever reason Fichtner has not yet trusted him to run a NFL style offense (not certain many top tier major college programs are running what the Steelers have run the past few games) and we do not yet have a clue if he is capable of doing so or how he will perform when given the opportunity.

With regard to other first year starters this season, for better or worse the Giants and Cardinals do not have the handcuffs on Daniel Jones (who stepped in for another class of 2004 QB after the season started) and Kyler Murray like the Steelers do on Rudolph.

The only time I recall the Steelers running wildcat in the last 10 years before the Bengals and Ravens games was the 2015 Chargers game when Vick obviously could no longer play. ( Has any other team run one wildcat play this season? :noidea:) If the coaches already have concluded the available QB skill sets now are where they were at when Ben was injured in early 2015 Rudolph should rent and not own his house in Pittsburgh.

So with a month having elapsed since Rudolph became the starter, maybe it is time to start finding out what he can do since the goal this season presumably is more than trying to preserve Tomlin's non-losing seasons streak.


AV and Foster need to worry more about not getting pushed around up front by Defensive Linemen than worrying about what Offense the team should be running. If it were Ben talking, sure, but Foster and AV have accomplished nothing of note. They are ringless.

Good to know that the only offensive linemen who have meritorious views have won Lombardis.

FWIW here is what AV and Foster said. Maybe it is blowing smoke to pump up the new QB, but they think Rudolph is capable of more than he has been asked to do so far.

“I’m ready for it,’’ guard Ramon Foster said. “I miss the no-huddle. That was our bread and butter, that was our baby. You get defenses in predictable fronts, get them doing what you want them to, gas them. As long as you’re converting, it works. I looooove the no-huddle. I can’t stress that enough. If there’s any time to do it, I would think it would be now.”...

“I feel he’s able to do everything and, you know what? We’re going to need him to do everything,” tackle Alejandro Villanueva said. “Tempo is one of the things that hurts defenses and makes everything a lot easier for quarterbacks. Usually they stay in the same defenses and quarterbacks can make reads a little bit easier. It’s harder for the defenses really to synthesize the formations we’re in.”

And as far as your breakdown of his career concluding Rudolph's nature is to be a dump 'em off QB, more from Bouchette

The Steelers play the next three in Heinz Field and there’s no place like home before the friendly crowd to run the no-huddle because of the communications and precision that are necessary to do so. Rudolph ran the no-huddle his entire college career at Oklahoma State, playing what coach Mike Gundy there called basketball on grass. The no-huddle is Rudolph’s baby, too. He passed for 4,904 yards in 13 games as a senior in 2017, which led the nation. His 37 touchdown passes tied for fourth vs. just nine interceptions. College passer ratings differ from the NFL but his 170.6 in 2017 ranked third in the country.

https://theathletic.com/1314247/2019/10/22/steelers-need-to-let-mason-rudolph-run-ben-roethlisbergers-offense/

But maybe the answer is keep it simple, hope to go a respectable 7-9, and not have a clue whether Rudolph can handle a full playbook after Ben comes back to hopefully play the full 2020 season. At that point the Steelers still may not know what Rudolph can do as he enters the last year of his rookie deal in 2021 and will have the option to walk after 2021 if he is not signed before that seasons starts

:drink:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

AtlantaDan, sure OSU and Gundy ran a no huddle, but I think NFL defenses are disguising coverages better than teams in the big 12. I'm all for opening the playbook for Rudolph, I was all for it in the SF game, the Bengals game and this week. I just don't think jumping to no huddle from having training wheels on with the Wildcat is the best progression. Then again, Fichtner is an offensive genius, so lets just trust him.

[Born2Steel]

Duck wasn't actually the hot hand, though. The gameplan was extremely limited to minimize his exposure. Rudolph is the starter and Duck is the backup until/ unless Rudolph proves he isn't up to the task.

I have no desire to debate what a "hot hand" is or isn't. I used the words "hot hand" for Duck who was the 3rd/4th string QB who started his 1st NFL game on the west coast and got a victory. He definitely had help from the rest of the team but "hot hand" goes with him actually winning a game. Also along with "help from the rest of the team" I mean is there something about 'Cool Hand Duck' that made the team play as well as they did? I mean even Moncrief caught a pass. The defense really stepped up their game in L.A. as well. I thought I clearly stated I think Rudolph is the "better" QB. Just asking the question does the team play better with Duck. Sorry for the confusion.

[AtlantaDan]

AtlantaDan, sure OSU and Gundy ran a no huddle, but I think NFL defenses are disguising coverages better than teams in the big 12. I'm all for opening the playbook for Rudolph, I was all for it in the SF game, the Bengals game and this week. I just don't think jumping to no huddle from having training wheels on with the Wildcat is the best progression. Then again, Fichtner is an offensive genius, so lets just trust him.

I agree it is not the Big 12 where defenses are either shellshocked or incompetent. But other Big 12 QBs like Murray and Mayfield came in and started slinging in their rookie years (Mahomes of course sat for a year until he showed his stuff in the last game of the 2017 season).

If they are going to try no huddle seems to me this next game against the Dolphins is the one to do it before they play the big boy Colts and Rams defenses.

I was surprised Foster and AV were so explicit about the need to raise the level of what is being run on offense in the Bouchette article. Fichtner may be getting an earful from the OL on what he is calling.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I agree it is not the Big 12 where defenses are either shellshocked or incompetent. But other Big 12 QBs like Murray and Mayfield came in and started slinging in their rookie years (Mahomes of course sat for a year until he showed his stuff in the last game of the 2017 season).

If they are going to try no huddle seems to me this next game against the Dolphins is the one to do it before they play the big boy Colts and Rams defenses.

I was surprised Foster and AV were so explicit about the need to raise the level of what is being run on offense in the Bouchette article. Fichtner may be getting an earful from the OL on what he is calling.

Could be a situation where the guys up front have faith in Rudolph and want to goto battle with him, but Caddyshack Fichtner is handcuffing the offense.

As for your comparisons with Mahomes, Mayfield, Murray.....could it be that Andy Reid, Freddie Kitchens and Cliff Kingsbury are better OC's than Fichtner? Maybe have a better rapport with those QB's than Mason does with Ben's caddy?

[AtlantaDan]

Could be a situation where the guys up front have faith in Rudolph and want to goto battle with him, but Caddyshack Fichtner is handcuffing the offense.

As for your comparisons with Mahomes, Mayfield, Murray.....could it be that Andy Reid, Freddie Kitchens and Cliff Kingsbury are better OC's than Fichtner? Maybe have a better rapport with those QB's than Mason does with Ben's caddy?

As far as play calling and QB rapport (as a coach rather than a gofer), definitely with Andy and Kingsbury. My guess is Kitchens probably will be looking for a job in January if, as seems likely, the preseason Super Bowl bound Browns miss the playoffs :coffee:

Unlike Butler, Fichtner never had another team try to him away as a coordinator and he had not called plays for well over a decade - his sole reason for being OC was lost for the season in week two and now Fichtner has to make the calls rather than just raise possibilities for consideration by the QB.

Not the best of circumstances for a young QB when a pass first OC in 2018 when the QB made the final play call now decides he needs to slam on the brakes.

[teegre]

Of the 2018 draft class QBs (who are starting), Rudolph has highest QBR average... and, the only one above 100. :nod:

One can say it’s due to only passing it 3 yards per attempt (or something along those lines), but hey!!! it works.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Of the 2018 draft class QBs (who are starting), Rudolph has highest QBR average... and, the only one above 100. :nod:

One can say it’s due to only passing it 3 yards per attempt (or something along those lines), but hey!!! it works. Go with what works for now. We are going to behind in points in some future game and then we will see what Rudolph has to offer.

[Fire Goodell]

The QB class of 2018 is a bunch of overrateds and an underrated :chuckle:

[Craic]

Of the 2018 draft class QBs (who are starting), Rudolph has highest QBR average... and, the only one above 100. :nod:

One can say it’s due to only passing it 3 yards per attempt (or something along those lines), but hey!!! it works.

Well, it worked for Joe Montana . . . :behindsofa:

[Six Rings]

Of the 2018 draft class QBs (who are starting), Rudolph has highest QBR average... and, the only one above 100. :nod:

One can say it’s due to only passing it 3 yards per attempt (or something along those lines), but hey!!! it works.

How's Ducks QBR vs the other rookie QB in 2019? Same thing :)?

[teegre]

How's Ducks QBR vs the other rookie QB in 2019? Same thing :)?

Good question. I’m not sure.

At worst, we have two very capable QBs on our roster.