Steeler Defense

[Shoes]

I was reading this article and it said the Steelers defense has an NFL worst 442 yards per game allowed 28.3 points given up on average (third-worst) Are they this bad?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001059572/article/what-to-watch-for-in-bengalssteelers-on-mnf

[Fire Goodell]

They're good in the first half, nonexistent in the 2nd half it seems. 30 minute men

[Mojouw]

Facing too many snaps. I know that several disagree and talk about halftime adjustments and such things. That is certainly part of it. But they are just on the field too long and facing too many plays. You give an NFL offense that many shots at you, they are going to beat you up eventually.

look at these time of possession stats:
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-time-of-possession-pct-net-of-ot
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot

They are facing more offensive plays per game than anyone else in the NFL:
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-plays-per-game

Offense is converting the LOWEST # of 3rd downs in the entire league:
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversions-per-game

Offense has the second lowest time of possession in the league:
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/time-of-possession-pct-net-of-ot

Long story short -- the offense has too many three and outs. I think their average "drive" is less than 2 minutes. Defense is plain worn out and exposed by the middle of the 3rd quarter.

[steelreserve]

I have never liked the time of possession / # of snaps stat as an cause for problems on defense, more like a symptom. At best, a chicken-or-the-egg question.

Bottom line is, we get exactly the same number of possessions as the opponent. Our offense goes three-and-out, guess what, our defense can make the time of possession equal by making THEM go three-and-out. Except we don't. The defense is on the field for a long time because the defense gives up long drives. No one else is allowing the opponent yards and first downs.

The average amount of time spent IN MOTION (e.g., between the snap and the whistle) during a full NFL football game is historically about 15 minutes. That means that even in a horribly lopsided game, the defensive players are actually running around for about 10 minutes out of 3+ hours. The opposing offense is on the field for the same amount of time, running just as hard as you and shoving just as hard as you, and they should be just as tired.

Being "gassed" is not the problem, it is something that announcers say to look smart. Mentally worn out by getting your ass kicked all day, maybe ... or you look like shit because the offense has figured out how to dominate you, so they just keep dominating you.

What it looks like to me is that the defense is playing like shit, and the offense is also playing like shit. That's a big problem.

[Mojouw]

I have never liked the time of possession / # of snaps stat as an cause for problems on defense, more like a symptom. At best, a chicken-or-the-egg question.

Bottom line is, we get exactly the same number of possessions as the opponent. Our offense goes three-and-out, guess what, our defense can make the time of possession equal by making THEM go three-and-out. Except we don't. The defense is on the field for a long time because the defense gives up long drives. No one else is allowing the opponent yards and first downs.

The average amount of time spent IN MOTION (e.g., between the snap and the whistle) during a full NFL football game is historically about 15 minutes. That means that even in a horribly lopsided game, the defensive players are actually running around for about 10 minutes out of 3+ hours. The opposing offense is on the field for the same amount of time, running just as hard as you and shoving just as hard as you, and they should be just as tired.

Being "gassed" is not the problem, it is something that announcers say to look smart. Mentally worn out by getting your ass kicked all day, maybe ... or you look like shit because the offense has figured out how to dominate you, so they just keep dominating you.

What it looks like to me is that the defense is playing like shit, and the offense is also playing like shit. That's a big problem.

Maybe. However you can comb back through the multiple quotes from Cam Heyward, Mason Rudolph, and several Steelers coaches in the past 5 days that argue exposing you defense to a high amount of snaps leads to bad things. You can go back in history to when the Steelers defense was really good and see quotes from guys like Polamalu, Smith, Farrior, Hampton, and Harrison discussing how necessary it is to limit the amount of plays on defense in order to be able to play defense at a high level.

It isn't like this a good enough defense that you really expect them to go out there and hold it done and just shut the door on teams. That isn't going to consistently happen. It is really just about the odds. If an offense has a 50-60% chance of beating this defense on a given play; the more plays they face the quicker those odds catch up with them. Considering we are talking about losing 2/3 games by about 6 plays...it tracks that less plays on defense equals better outcomes.

[steelreserve]

Maybe. However you can comb back through the multiple quotes from Cam Heyward, Mason Rudolph, and several Steelers coaches in the past 5 days that argue exposing you defense to a high amount of snaps leads to bad things. You can go back in history to when the Steelers defense was really good and see quotes from guys like Polamalu, Smith, Farrior, Hampton, and Harrison discussing how necessary it is to limit the amount of plays on defense in order to be able to play defense at a high level.

It isn't like this a good enough defense that you really expect them to go out there and hold it done and just shut the door on teams. That isn't going to consistently happen. It is really just about the odds. If an offense has a 50-60% chance of beating this defense on a given play; the more plays they face the quicker those odds catch up with them. Considering we are talking about losing 2/3 games by about 6 plays...it tracks that less plays on defense equals better outcomes.

Yes, clearly the fewer plays on defense the better ... as you said, every play when the opponent has the ball puts the odds more in their favor. It just seems more likely that the reason for facing a lot of snaps on defense is BECAUSE the defense isn't paying well - not that facing a lot of snaps is what makes them perform poorly. Any time they want, they can get a three-and-out and end that argument.

Nobody disagrees that facing a lot of snaps is a bad thing, but like I said, chicken or the egg.

A huge part of why the 2008 defense was so good was that they let us absolutely DOMINATE field position. We force a quick punt, get the ball on the 40-yard line on half of possessions, easy game. Offense throws an interception at its own 40 - the opponent might not even score at all. They weren't sitting around wringing their hands and waiting for the offense to help them out. We won the time of possession and play counts BECAUSE of what the defense did, not because we were great at keeping them off the field by dragging out drives on offense. We won plenty of games like 16-13. Another good example of this would be the 49ers around 2010-12, when their defense was stacked and the offense sucked shit because Alex Smith was so bad he was getting booed off the field. A good defense is good on its own and a bad defense is bad on its own. Its problems are not becauss of the offense, it is because they cannot get a stop.

[Mojouw]

Yes, clearly the fewer plays on defense the better ... as you said, every play when the opponent has the ball puts the odds more in their favor. It just seems more likely that the reason for facing a lot of snaps on defense is BECAUSE the defense isn't paying well - not that facing a lot of snaps is what makes them perform poorly. Any time they want, they can get a three-and-out and end that argument.

Nobody disagrees that facing a lot of snaps is a bad thing, but like I said, chicken or the egg.

A huge part of why the 2008 defense was so good was that they let us absolutely DOMINATE field position. We force a quick punt, get the ball on the 40-yard line on half of possessions, easy game. Offense throws an interception at its own 40 - the opponent might not even score at all. They weren't sitting around wringing their hands and waiting for the offense to help them out. We won the time of possession and play counts BECAUSE of what the defense did, not because we were great at keeping them off the field by dragging out drives on offense. We won plenty of games like 16-13. Another good example of this would be the 49ers around 2010-12, when their defense was stacked and the offense sucked shit because Alex Smith was so bad he was getting booed off the field. A good defense is good on its own and a bad defense is bad on its own. Its problems are not becauss of the offense, it is because they cannot get a stop.

I see what you are saying. And I think it can and does apply to historically good defenses. But a merely average or below defense, such as the 2019 Steelers, absolutely must be helped out by the offense.

Historically good/great defenses are so talented that they don't need disguise or scheme to stop an offense. They can just line up and beat you by winning individual match-ups across the board. A merely mortal defense, needs to disguise intentions, cause confusion, and scheme to cover-up weakness. It can not get through simply winning a series of 1 on 1 match-ups across the board. If you expose that kind of defense to an increased number of plays because the offense can't make a single 3rd down conversion in an entire half of football, the other team is going to see through the disguise, get clarity on your intentions, and identify and expose your weaknesses on defense.

This is not a revolutionary concept. Watching the Bears and Patriots play defense yesterday and it was interesting to watch. They are not running anything fancy or even all that confusing. Heck, I could identify the pass-rushers pre-snap on my TV. But they are just winning the individual match-ups over and over again. So who cares if the offense stinks? In contrast, take the Chiefs and Lions defenses. Those two defenses played far better with both the lead and an offense that hung on to the ball. Because they can be had if they are asked to stop an offense multiple drives in a row and seeing the field a ton.

[Born2Steel]

BUT...an offense going 3&out or a turnover puts a defense in a bad spot already. That gets magnified when that defense is already not playing well. The poor play by the offense is not THE reason the defense is playing poorly at times but it is certainly not helping out either. Not an all or none situation. Once the offense starts producing points or at least getting first downs the defense gets a breather and/or doesn’t have to defend a short field.

[Blast Furnace]

Facing too many snaps. I know that several disagree and talk about halftime adjustments and such things. That is certainly part of it. But they are just on the field too long and facing too many plays. You give an NFL offense that many shots at you, they are going to beat you up eventually.

look at these time of possession stats:
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-time-of-possession-pct-net-of-ot
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot

They are facing more offensive plays per game than anyone else in the NFL:
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-plays-per-game

Offense is converting the LOWEST # of 3rd downs in the entire league:
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversions-per-game

Offense has the second lowest time of possession in the league:
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/time-of-possession-pct-net-of-ot

Long story short -- the offense has too many three and outs. I think their average "drive" is less than 2 minutes. Defense is plain worn out and exposed by the middle of the 3rd quarter.

Perfect post - my sentiments exactly. I'll also add that the coaches aren't real big on making substitutions either. How many snaps did Ola have last week? What about Gilbert in for an exhausted Barron who just couldn't do it (I know many of you feel he sucked, but that is why he sucked so bad in the 4th qtr.).

[Edman]

The same old Excuses have been made for the Defense for years.

The Defense is bad, will only rise to the level of mediocre at best. Keith Butler is subpar DC running a dinosaur scheme.

[FrancoLambert]

I was reading this article and it said the Steelers defense has an NFL worst 442 yards per game allowed 28.3 points given up on average (third-worst) Are they this bad?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001059572/article/what-to-watch-for-in-bengalssteelers-on-mnf

This is one of those times when statistical analysis and the subjective “eye test” are a dead match.

[GoSlash27]

I agree with Mojo on this one. The defensive woes are substantially driven by our offense's inability to sustain drives. This is borne out by the difference between first half and 4th quarter performance. The Steelers D is highly effective in the first half, and peters out from there. This is direct evidence that they're worn out. They're not gassed because they allowed too many drives, they're getting gassed because they don't get a break. The long drives are a result of a tired defense, which in turn becomes a cause and exacerbates the situation. If the reason was really our defense sucking, they'd suck in the first half too.

[steelreserve]

I see what you are saying. And I think it can and does apply to historically good defenses. But a merely average or below defense, such as the 2019 Steelers, absolutely must be helped out by the offense.

Historically good/great defenses are so talented that they don't need disguise or scheme to stop an offense. They can just line up and beat you by winning individual match-ups across the board. A merely mortal defense, needs to disguise intentions, cause confusion, and scheme to cover-up weakness. It can not get through simply winning a series of 1 on 1 match-ups across the board. If you expose that kind of defense to an increased number of plays because the offense can't make a single 3rd down conversion in an entire half of football, the other team is going to see through the disguise, get clarity on your intentions, and identify and expose your weaknesses on defense.

This is not a revolutionary concept. Watching the Bears and Patriots play defense yesterday and it was interesting to watch. They are not running anything fancy or even all that confusing. Heck, I could identify the pass-rushers pre-snap on my TV. But they are just winning the individual match-ups over and over again. So who cares if the offense stinks? In contrast, take the Chiefs and Lions defenses. Those two defenses played far better with both the lead and an offense that hung on to the ball. Because they can be had if they are asked to stop an offense multiple drives in a row and seeing the field a ton.

I think we are talking about the exact same thing here, just different ways of saying it.

The problem with the 2019 Steelers' defense is that it is below average because of three or four significant personnel problems. It would be nice if the offense could help compensate for some of that, but so far it can't. So what we are left with is simply a below-average defense that is playing straight-up and eventually losing.

Basically, yeah, you can kind of cover up some problems by winning field position (a side effect of good defense or sustained drives, pick one) but that does not cause or fix the actual problems.

[Mojouw]

I think we are talking about the exact same thing here, just different ways of saying it.

The problem with the 2019 Steelers' defense is that it is below average because of three or four significant personnel problems. It would be nice if the offense could help compensate for some of that, but so far it can't. So what we are left with is simply a below-average defense that is playing straight-up and eventually losing.

Basically, yeah, you can kind of cover up some problems by winning field position (a side effect of good defense or sustained drives, pick one) but that does not cause or fix the actual problems.

Seems to be the case. I see what you are saying now.

I agree that it isn't like this is suddenly going to be a suffocating defense because the offense starts converting 3rd downs. Nothing can mask the problems in scheme and personnel that currently exist. BUT...you can hide them a lot better if you only have to face 50 plays a game instead of 70.

Not going to matter anyways -- it is kinda like arguing over why the clutch sticks while the engine is on fire.

[steelreserve]

Seems to be the case. I see what you are saying now.

I agree that it isn't like this is suddenly going to be a suffocating defense because the offense starts converting 3rd downs. Nothing can mask the problems in scheme and personnel that currently exist. BUT...you can hide them a lot better if you only have to face 50 plays a game instead of 70.

Not going to matter anyways -- it is kinda like arguing over why the clutch sticks while the engine is on fire.

One thing that absolutely makes sense - you see it in college basketball games a lot - is that you can narrow the gap in skill by "shortening the game," as in eating up the clock so that each team gets fewer possessions. Then luck plays a bigger role, or one player getting on a hot streak can win the game for you ... lot better chance of that if you have 35 or 40 possessions each side than 70 or 80, when overall skill has more and more chances to win out.

The problem with that is in football, you can't just slow down the game by holding onto the ball, you have to get first downs by being good yourself. So I guess it's a roundabout way of saying a lackluster offense takes away your chance at that as a compensating strategy. Or the same thing you said with your car on fire.

[Mojouw]

One thing that absolutely makes sense - you see it in college basketball games a lot - is that you can narrow the gap in skill by "shortening the game," as in eating up the clock so that each team gets fewer possessions. Then luck plays a bigger role, or one player getting on a hot streak can win the game for you ... lot better chance of that if you have 35 or 40 possessions each side than 70 or 80, when overall skill has more and more chances to win out.

The problem with that is in football, you can't just slow down the game by holding onto the ball, you have to get first downs by being good yourself. So I guess it's a roundabout way of saying a lackluster offense takes away your chance at that as a compensating strategy. Or the same thing you said with your car on fire.

Awesome analogy. That is precisely what I mean.

If we could take the 2019 Steelers defense from the last 2 first halfs of the this season and bolt it onto the 2018 Steelers offense. Now coming out at the second half, the Steelers are up about 2-3 scores and the other team has to expose their QB to a "fresher" Tuitt/Watt/MFF led defense that seems to now understand how to force turnovers and get sacks.

That combination would win a pretty darn good amount of football games.

[HollywoodSteel]

I really think it’s nuts that the defense isn’t better than it is. Our starting D line should be straight up dominant. We led the league in sacks last year and there’s no way anyone can say that we didn’t objectively upgrade our starting LBers.

Our biggest problem last year was a fluky lack of turnovers. Now we have two #1 picks at safety. That should be a god damn strength if there ever was one. Haden is really good corner. Nelson should at least be above average.

So what is it? Where is the glaring weakness? Is our DC just THAT bad? Because on paper we should easily have a top 5 defense.

I know this isn’t really a substantive post but I’m just at a loss for words with this team. Look at our talent across the board, yet we have the same amount of wins as the freaking Dolphins who are doing their best to tank.

[Mojouw]

I honestly think that if the offense could convert more than 25% of its 3rd downs (which is worse than the 2018 Arizona Cardinals) that the defense would rebound to at least last years level. Take last year's level of sacks and merge it with this year's takeaways? It could work. BUT the offense needs to be at that 25-28 points per game level and converting around 40% of its 3rd downs.

Even with the disasters against empty sets and the problems with RBs in the flat, and the issues with the TE -- I think all of that could be managed around if the offense was what almost everyone assumed it would be.

[HollywoodSteel]

I honestly think that if the offense could convert more than 25% of its 3rd downs (which is worse than the 2018 Arizona Cardinals) that the defense would rebound to at least last years level. Take last year's level of sacks and merge it with this year's takeaways? It could work. BUT the offense needs to be at that 25-28 points per game level and converting around 40% of its 3rd downs.

Even with the disasters against empty sets and the problems with RBs in the flat, and the issues with the TE -- I think all of that could be managed around if the offense was what almost everyone assumed it would be.

That certainly makes sense. I mean there’s absolutely no way not to put the blame for last week’s loss on the offense. How many takeaways does this defense need to generate?

And I like Conner as much as anyone else, but he is like the opposite of clutch.

At this point I am absolutely done with this team chemistry, do the right thing philosophy. Give me selfish head cases like Bell and AB any day. Those guys actually produced.

And while I’m selling my soul, give me an evil genius like Bill Belichick.

[steelreserve]

Awesome analogy. That is precisely what I mean.

If we could take the 2019 Steelers defense from the last 2 first halfs of the this season and bolt it onto the 2018 Steelers offense. Now coming out at the second half, the Steelers are up about 2-3 scores and the other team has to expose their QB to a "fresher" Tuitt/Watt/MFF led defense that seems to now understand how to force turnovers and get sacks.

That combination would win a pretty darn good amount of football games.

Well yeah - you win more games when you're better on offense and defense!

- - - Updated - - -


I really think it’s nuts that the defense isn’t better than it is. Our starting D line should be straight up dominant. We led the league in sacks last year and there’s no way anyone can say that we didn’t objectively upgrade our starting LBers.

Our biggest problem last year was a fluky lack of turnovers. Now we have two #1 picks at safety. That should be a god damn strength if there ever was one. Haden is really good corner. Nelson should at least be above average.

So what is it? Where is the glaring weakness? Is our DC just THAT bad? Because on paper we should easily have a top 5 defense.

I know this isn’t really a substantive post but I’m just at a loss for words with this team. Look at our talent across the board, yet we have the same amount of wins as the freaking Dolphins who are doing their best to tank.

Hey, relax a little bit. All you need to do to feel better is take a breath and sit back and watch your favorite scenes of the shit-eating dog from Star Wars.

OH WAIT I FORGOT - WHAT SHIT-EATING DOG?? Never mind, I don't feel sorry for you; you've got nobody but yourself to blame for that one.

[st33lersguy]

The Steelers would have given up at least 30 points had San Fran's offense not spent much of the game actively trying to hand the Steelers the game. They were dropping the ball and fumbling the ball all game

[Shoes]

D looked good tonight, let's hope it continues.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

D looked good tonight, let's hope it continues. 8 sacks is impressive.

[HollywoodSteel]

D looked good tonight, let's hope it continues.

Yes, this is the defense I was expecting this year. We really do have talent across the board. It’s crazy that we needed 4 games to actually put it together... or maybe we just needed the Bengals.

I hope our pass rush really is this good, and it’s not that the Bengals O line is just that bad.

I’m curious to see how we try and handle LJ of the Ravens. We’ll get pressure for sure, but will we flush him out and get him down or just let him loose? This will be the game where we REALLY need Devin Bush and that speed to contain LJ once he decides to tuck it and bolt.

[Rotorhead]

I think it was more the Bungles than the Steelers pass rush. That being said, I think we can take the Rats as long as we can stop the deep shots. They don’t have a QB, the Browns exposed him last weekend. Our pass rush is certainly better than the first 3 games.

[Squeegee Thompson]

Also, too much is being made of defensive statistics after only 3 games.

3 points on 175 total yards against the Bungles will flip all of those previously-horrible defensive stats on their head.

[Fire Goodell]

They are forcing more turnovers this year which is good.

Barron, what's the deal with him? Last week he looked slower than Dirty Red. Yesterday he looked like a gamer. Could be a good pickup if he can play with more consistency.

Bush is starting to look like the real deal. Finally playing fast and doesn't look as lost as in the beginning of the season. Still a work in progress, but the important thing is we're seeing progress.

Diontae Johnson is impressive so far for a rookie. He could be the next AB. Yeah 2 of his TD's he was literally all alone with no defender within 10 yards, but he did have to get himself in that position in the first place. Seems like he's Mason's go-to guy, could be a legit #2 for Juju.

[DesertSteel]

Steelers are now #13 in yards allowed and #13 in points allowed - and #2 with 9 takeaways.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Steelers are now #13 in yards allowed and #13 in points allowed - and #2 with 9 takeaways. What a difference a day makes. Serious this will be a top 5 D before the season ends and even with Butler trying to sabotage them.

[Squeegee Thompson]

They are forcing more turnovers this year which is good.

Barron, what's the deal with him? Last week he looked slower than Dirty Red. Yesterday he looked like a gamer. Could be a good pickup if he can play with more consistency.

Bush is starting to look like the real deal. Finally playing fast and doesn't look as lost as in the beginning of the season. Still a work in progress, but the important thing is we're seeing progress.

Diontae Johnson is impressive so far for a rookie. He could be the next AB. Yeah 2 of his TD's he was literally all alone with no defender within 10 yards, but he did have to get himself in that position in the first place. Seems like he's Mason's go-to guy, could be a legit #2 for Juju.

Tomlin, Butler, and their merry band of lackeys lit a fire under his ass. He was probably playing for his job last night. The question remains: Is this gonna be the new Barron, or was this a one-off performance for his angry coaches that'll go away once the adrenaline wears off?

[tube517]

1179046910814019586

[Steeler-in-west]

I think this defense feeds off the success of the offense. When the offense can’t get anything going it’s mental exhaustion just as much if not more than physical exhaustion that wears out the D. This is a young defense after all. I think the same type of thing will happen against the ravens, that happened yesterday; if our offense can score points, watch the D start to really shut down the ravens offense. They said themselves they are starting to jell. If the offense stalls is where we will start to see missed assignments, PI’s and dumb penalties pile up.

[HollywoodSteel]

I think this defense feeds off the success of the offense. When the offense can’t get anything going it’s mental exhaustion just as much if not more than physical exhaustion that wears out the D. This is a young defense after all. I think the same type of thing will happen against the ravens, that happened yesterday; if our offense can score points, watch the D start to really shut down the ravens offense. They said themselves they are starting to jell. If the offense stalls is where we will start to see missed assignments, PI’s and dumb penalties pile up.

All that is certainly true, but you have to hand it to the defense for holding tough in the beginning when the offense put them in bad spots. Holding the Bengals to that first field goal after the fumble was really big. And when the offense stalled again, the defense held strong.

The defense really set the tone for the offense in this game and made it so we never had to debate why the offense never adjusted... the offense never HAD to adjust. The defense allowed them to stick with their game plan

[Mojouw]

I think this defense feeds off the success of the offense. When the offense can’t get anything going it’s mental exhaustion just as much if not more than physical exhaustion that wears out the D. This is a young defense after all. I think the same type of thing will happen against the ravens, that happened yesterday; if our offense can score points, watch the D start to really shut down the ravens offense. They said themselves they are starting to jell. If the offense stalls is where we will start to see missed assignments, PI’s and dumb penalties pile up.

Maybe with a lead and or competent offense, the defense can relax a bit and not worry about one bad play being the margin of defeat? Actually let’s them play better.

They still faced a ton of plays. But most with a 2 score lead. Seemed to change things.

Or maybe the Cincy o line is just really bad?

[Hawkman]

Tomlin, Butler, and their merry band of lackeys lit a fire under his ass. He was probably playing for his job last night. The question remains: Is this gonna be the new Barron, or was this a one-off performance for his angry coaches that'll go away once the adrenaline wears off?

That is indeed the question.

[HollywoodSteel]

Isn’t it a little weird to think that out of our starting defense last night Tuitt, Hargrave, and Nelson are the only players who weren’t drafted in the first round? And those guys are pretty good.

If Burns ever subs for Nelson we could have 9 first round players on the field at the same time. That would have to be some kind of record, don’t you think?

[teegre]

Momentum-wise: Bud Dupree’s strip-sack was perfectly timed.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

1179046910814019586

Interesting...the Steelers defense faced 69 snaps, which is similar to the Seattle game total of 72, but they didn't suck in the 2nd half like they did vs Seattle. Could it be snap count or something else that lead to difference in play?

I think the Steelers found their core DB group. Was intrigued to see why they had Sutton in rather than Hilton, but the numbers show it was the minority of the time.

[DesertSteel]

Momentum-wise: Bud Dupree’s strip-sack was perfectly timed.
I think it was the biggest play of the game.

[steelreserve]

The defense faced a lot of plays, but it was much more effectibe during those plays. I don't think that has anything to do with our offense, it has to do with the defense winning battles against the Cincinnati offense.

Partly because of the Bungles being REALLY BAD (OL looked lost, receivers were shaky) but also hopefully because we are making progress. Now that they've shown they CAN win a game, this week ought to be a much bigger test for both the offense and defense.

[Mojouw]

I mean playing from ahead with a multi-score lead and being able to spend the majority of the 2nd half win pass rush only mode might have a bit to do with it.

While I am shocked at the number of plays that Cincy ran versus how many were effective; I honestly do not believe the performance of the offense and the defense can be completely decoupled. One influences and/or plays a role in the other.

It is kind of hard to say, because it is becoming clear that the Bengals are pretty bad.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I mean playing from ahead with a multi-score lead and being able to spend the majority of the 2nd half win pass rush only mode might have a bit to do with it.

While I am shocked at the number of plays that Cincy ran versus how many were effective; I honestly do not believe the performance of the offense and the defense can be completely decoupled. One influences and/or plays a role in the other.

It is kind of hard to say, because it is becoming clear that the Bengals are pretty bad.

Its like Tomlin said in the presser....when the offense turns the ball over, the Defense needs to get a stop and get off the field. Similarly, when the Defense gets a turnover, the Offense needs to support them and get points.

The reality of the situation is, that when the Offense is on the field, they aren't thinking and cant be thinking of what the defense is doing. Same for when the Defense is on the field. Fact is that if the Defense didn't fold like a cheap lawn chair in the 2nd half of the Seattle game, the Steelers are 2-2 and tied for the division lead.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I mean playing from ahead with a multi-score lead and being able to spend the majority of the 2nd half win pass rush only mode might have a bit to do with it.

While I am shocked at the number of plays that Cincy ran versus how many were effective; I honestly do not believe the performance of the offense and the defense can be completely decoupled. One influences and/or plays a role in the other.

It is kind of hard to say, because it is becoming clear that the Bengals are pretty bad. Green being out is really hurting their offense.

[Rotorhead]

Green being out is really hurting their offense.

Well that and their OL couldn’t stop a HS JV squad right now. I am not sure Green would have helped at all when Red was getting hit almost immediately after the ball was snapped.

[DesertSteel]

Don’t look now but Dupree is 5th in the NFL in TFLs with 9.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Well that and their OL couldn’t stop a HS JV squad right now. I am not sure Green would have helped at all when Red was getting hit almost immediately after the ball was snapped. True and 8 sacks is a lot to give up in 1 game. Of course no fear of the other wrs maybe why the Steeelers blitz more.

[pczach]

Don’t look now but Dupree is 5th in the NFL in TFLs with 9.


He was also blatantly held a couple times in this game, and in some of the other games. He is getting more consistent pressure this year.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Don’t look now but Dupree is 5th in the NFL in TFLs with 9.

Yeah, but how many were TFL-dong tackles? :wink02:

I bet there is a film room cut up in the works on the Depot soon.

[DesertSteel]

Yeah, but how many were TFL-dong tackles? :wink02:

I bet there is a film room cut up in the works on the Depot soon.
He was fortunate to learn from some of the dong masters of the past -- Worlds, Jarvis, et al.

[Fire Goodell]

And the original "Kong of Dong" himself, Jason GilDong, though the weekly ripping of Lamarr Woodley (The WoodenDong) was freakin' hillarious :chuckle:

[GoSlash27]

Interesting...the Steelers defense faced 69 snaps, which is similar to the Seattle game total of 72, but they didn't suck in the 2nd half like they did vs Seattle. Could it be snap count or something else that lead to difference in play?

The Bungles were playing from a large deficit for most of the game. My conclusions: 1) Stopping the pass is a lot less tiring than stopping the run. 2) The Steelers defense against the pass is better than their defense against the run. 3) It's easier to stop a one dimensional offense.

[Hawkman]

The Bungles were playing from a large deficit for most of the game. My conclusions: 1) Stopping the pass is a lot less tiring than stopping the run. 2) The Steelers defense against the pass is better than their defense against the run. 3) It's easier to stop a one dimensional offense.

The only thing that made sense was #3

[Craic]

As I watched that game, i was suddenly struck with the idea that we have two safeties that could stay with us a decade or more and both are able to put together very good games. We have two linebackers who are very fresh and could also play with us a decade or more and become very good players if not great players. Hargrave and Tuitt are only 26. Mike Hilton seemed to come alive last night, and he's only 25. Steven nelson is playing decently well, too, allowing just over half the ball thrown his way to be completed. He's only 26.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

As I watched that game, i was suddenly struck with the idea that we have two safeties that could stay with us a decade or more and both are able to put together very good games. We have two linebackers who are very fresh and could also play with us a decade or more and become very good players if not great players. Hargrave and Tuitt are only 26. Mike Hilton seemed to come alive last night, and he's only 25. Steven nelson is playing decently well, too, allowing just over half the ball thrown his way to be completed. He's only 26. D is very young and only getting better and the age of the team mostly is on the OL needs to be a priority next draft,

[teegre]

And the original "Kong of Dong" himself, Jason GilDong, though the weekly ripping of Lamarr Woodley (The WoodenDong) was freakin' hillarious :chuckle:

May favorite is still:
Taunto, the winged God of linebacking :lol:

[86WARD]

1179046910814019586

That core 4 of DBs is leaps and bounds further along (and talented) then what they had the past few seasons. My fear is now the defense is going to become the strong part of the team and the offense is going to become subpar...

[steelreserve]

As I watched that game, i was suddenly struck with the idea that we have two safeties that could stay with us a decade or more and both are able to put together very good games. We have two linebackers who are very fresh and could also play with us a decade or more and become very good players if not great players. Hargrave and Tuitt are only 26. Mike Hilton seemed to come alive last night, and he's only 25. Steven nelson is playing decently well, too, allowing just over half the ball thrown his way to be completed. He's only 26.

As long as Edmunds is actually capable of playing the position, that is the key to the whole thing.

Who knows, maybe he actually isn't that bad, and adding Fitzpatrick really helped him. Like ... Will Allen caught a ton of shit his last season here, but I actually think he was still an ok player, but Antwon Blake was SO bad that Allen got caught up in all the misplays, either trying to compensate for them, or being in "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.

Maybe having Davis and other meatheads back there was having a similar effect on Edmunds. At least, I hope that was it.

[Fire Goodell]

I'm never gonna forgive Davis for that hit on Haden vs SD last year. If he doesn't do that, Haden gets the INT and we win the game.

For some kid who was supposedly book smart in school he's stupid as hell when it comes to making decisions in game

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

As long as Edmunds is actually capable of playing the position, that is the key to the whole thing.

Who knows, maybe he actually isn't that bad, and adding Fitzpatrick really helped him. Like ... Will Allen caught a ton of shit his last season here, but I actually think he was still an ok player, but Antwon Blake was SO bad that Allen got caught up in all the misplays, either trying to compensate for them, or being in "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.

Maybe having Davis and other meatheads back there was having a similar effect on Edmunds. At least, I hope that was it.

Edmunds was a rookie and I thought he actually played well for being thrown into that position and starting 15 games, making over 70 tackles and an INT in his rookie season. I haven't seen any kind of reason in the first 4 games this year that would need to have him pulled and I think it helps to have another guy with high football IQ back there in Fitzpatrick to play next to.

D line is gonna be where the group needs to be upgraded after Hargrave likely leaves in the offseason and AluAlu, Heyward are not getting any younger.

[steelreserve]

Edmunds was a rookie and I thought he actually played well for being thrown into that position and starting 15 games, making over 70 tackles and an INT in his rookie season. I haven't seen any kind of reason in the first 4 games this year that would need to have him pulled and I think it helps to have another guy with high football IQ back there in Fitzpatrick to play next to.

D line is gonna be where the group needs to be upgraded after Hargrave likely leaves in the offseason and AluAlu, Heyward are not getting any younger.

Edmunds has just seemed, for most of his brief career, like another one of those guys who you only see chasing receivers from behind on another long pass, reacting to plays instead of making plays. That may not be his fault, if it was what I alluded to with a cascade effect from other players being out of position and screwing up. At least I hope so.

[Craic]

I don't know this, but I'd be interested in seeing the breakdown between how many times he was "chasing someone from behind" on man coverage vs. zone coverage, and then his assignments on both. I'll give him a complete pass if he was assigned a different zone and hustled over to make a tackle or even get close to the play. Same with man-to-man if he was tasked with a TE or covering someone over the top and then breaking off to make a tackle.

[steelreserve]

I don't know this, but I'd be interested in seeing the breakdown between how many times he was "chasing someone from behind" on man coverage vs. zone coverage, and then his assignments on both. I'll give him a complete pass if he was assigned a different zone and hustled over to make a tackle or even get close to the play. Same with man-to-man if he was tasked with a TE or covering someone over the top and then breaking off to make a tackle.

Yeah, that is nothing but a completely anecdotal observation, and the explanation may be as simple as, the defense overall did not have its shit together and he was just caught up in the middle of it. That's what I am hoping for, anyway.

[Steeldude]

1179046910814019586

And no Burns 👍🏻

[86WARD]

And no Burns [emoji1303]

Who?

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Who? ? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/o6x9SBpU-j0/hqdefault.jpg

[Craic]

Yeah, that is nothing but a completely anecdotal observation, and the explanation may be as simple as, the defense overall did not have its shit together and he was just caught up in the middle of it. That's what I am hoping for, anyway.

That could be true, or it could be that you're catching weaknesses in his ability to play zone or man and having to play catch up. Someone should go watch some film!

[HollywoodSteel]

He was fortunate to learn from some of the dong masters of the past -- Worlds, Jarvis, et al.

I can’t wait until NFL films does his story... Bud Dupree: a Dong Life.

[86WARD]

Dupree has been really, really good defending the run. As much as people want to rag on him, his run stopping has been that much better.

[86WARD]

I’ll just stick this right here...

1181732014124220416


...Mark Barron...lol.

[teegre]

I’ll just stick this right here...

1181732014124220416


...Mark Barron...lol.

Everyone else is playing zone. Barron plays man... then, in order to rub salt in that wound, he allows that man to break free.

Barron is awful. As I said weeks ago: I’ll take my lumps with Gilbert.

[tube517]

I’ll just stick this right here...

1181732014124220416


...Mark Barron...lol.

Meanwhile, Bince was reading plays and going in motion before the TE motioned and then got in position to affect the play. Baldinger shows it but I can't find it right now.

[teegre]

Dupree has been really, really good defending the run. As much as people want to rag on him, his run stopping has been that much better.

There was a running play where the RG pulled right at Dupree. Dupree shoved him aside and made the TFL.

But, Yes, no one will admit that he makes good plays against the run.

[Six Rings]

On our defense

We are +5 on turnovers
We have a good pass rush
The secondary for the first time in years is good

The biggest problem? The offense is not getting ENOUGH points off turnovers! The run defense isn't very good, and we have two new starters finding their way. Oh the coaching at times makes little sense as Buttler plays 2 defensive lineman at times, which just scream run on us.

By the end of the year the defense should be better

[Fire Goodell]

Everyone else is playing zone. Barron plays man... then, in order to rub salt in that wound, he allows that man to break free.

Barron is awful. As I said weeks ago: I’ll take my lumps with Gilbert.

Honestly when Dirty Red came into the game the defense looked better. Yeah he's slower than Barron but the guy plays his assignments well.

[Born2Steel]

Everyone else is playing zone. Barron plays man... then, in order to rub salt in that wound, he allows that man to break free.

Barron is awful. As I said weeks ago: I’ll take my lumps with Gilbert.

Barron is a QB watcher. He probably believes he’s fast enough to close on the ball. He wants to make the Int over just defending the play. If he sticks to the TE on that play that pass probably doesn’t get thrown at all. Bad habits.

[teegre]

Honestly when Dirty Red came into the game the defense looked better. Yeah he's slower than Barron but the guy plays his assignments well.

Amen!!! Red might not be athletic enough to ever be “good”, but he’s not going to be out of position nor would he ever jog. WTF is up with the jogging!?!

btw: In limited play, Bince had 9 tackles, a pass breakup, and a sack. :nod:

- - - Updated - - -


Barron is a QB watcher. He probably believes he’s fast enough to close on the ball. He wants to make the Int over just defending the play. If he sticks to the TE on that play that pass probably doesn’t get thrown at all. Bad habits.

Fast would require him to run (not jog).

Indeed, if he stays playing man, the pass isn’t thrown. Barron made one error (playing man when everyone else is playing zone) and compounded that mistake by making a second mistake (leaving the TE wide open).

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Amen!!! Red might not be athletic enough to ever be “good”, but he’s not going to be out of position nor would he ever jog. WTF is up with the jogging!?!

btw: In limited play, Bince had 9 tackles, a pass breakup, and a sack. :nod:

- - - Updated - - -



Fast would require him to run (not jog).

Indeed, if he stays playing man, the pass isn’t thrown. Barron made one error (playing man when everyone else is playing zone) and compounded that mistake by making a second mistake (leaving the TE wide open).

I don't think Barron was playing man in that clip, I think he motioned over and communicated to Kelly on the pre snap motion. Then at the snap he took his drop to the depth of the TE, but took his eye and hands off the TE in the zone and lost him, instead of running with the TE thru the middle of the zone until he possibly went deeper. Just a bad coverage and like you say, worse jogging.

I said last week I think Bince and Bush are the top 2 ILB on the team. I think that was displayed further during the game.

[Mojouw]

SO here is what I have been thinking about. Supposedly Butler is the worst defensive coordinator since the invention of the position. But. But. The Steelers defense is good?

So what’s going on? I mean I have been repeatedly told that the scheme was outdated and couldn’t work in todays NFL. I was told that Butler and Tomlin were too arrogant and stupid to make adjustments and coach players. I was told that without a real NT it would never work.

I am still not a Butler fan. I am a fan of this style of 3-4 defense. I have argued in the past that the biggest problem was players being stupid and not executing the plan properly and the lack of playmakers in the middle of the field.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Tomlin and Austin may have reined in the worst of Butler’s ideas and the addition of Bush, Barron (as bad as he has looked he is better than Boston or Spence), and MFF has made the entire unit better. The replacement of Sensabaugh with Nelson is an almost unquantifiable upgrade.

[FrancoLambert]

SO here is what I have been thinking about. Supposedly Butler is the worst defensive coordinator since the invention of the position. But. But. The Steelers defense is good?

So what’s going on? I mean I have been repeatedly told that the scheme was outdated and couldn’t work in todays NFL. I was told that Butler and Tomlin were too arrogant and stupid to make adjustments and coach players. I was told that without a real NT it would never work.

I am still not a Butler fan. I am a fan of this style of 3-4 defense. I have argued in the past that the biggest problem was players being stupid and not executing the plan properly and the lack of playmakers in the middle of the field.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Tomlin and Austin may have reined in the worst of Butler’s ideas and the addition of Bush, Barron (as bad as he has looked he is better than Boston or Spence), and MFF has made the entire unit better. The replacement of Sensabaugh with Nelson is an almost unquantifiable upgrade.

It’s a bit of both but would lean to the upgrade in talent with Bush and Minka shoring up the middle having more to do with it than Butler finally getting it.
Throw in DuPree playing for a new contract, DL playing well, Nelson a definite upgrade at CB.
Great...we’re 1-4.

[Craic]

It’s a bit of both but would lean to the upgrade in talent with Bush and Minka shoring up the middle having more to do with it than Butler finally getting it.
Throw in DuPree playing for a new contract, DL playing well, Nelson a definite upgrade at CB.
Great...we’re 1-4.

2-4. However, if we take a look at the defensive effort and pair that with an offense even from last year let alone the years past, we're 5-1 right now with our only loss coming against the Pats.* And even then, our defense played well until they ran out of gas because the offense couldn't keep them off the field.